A Little League baseball epiphany

[Houston]

This is why baseball is so great.

Two days ago, I was coaching my son's 8/9 year old Little League team and we were down 10-4 heading into the last inning. We had lost to this same team by 11 two weeks earlier. My players were not optimistic.

"We can't score 6 runs in one inning," one of them said.

"You don't have to score 6 runs... you just have to get on base. Each person's job this inning is just to get on base," I told them.

Guess what? Fifteen batters later, we had scored 10 runs to take a 14-10 lead heading into the bottom of the inning. We held them for the unlikely come-from-behind victory.

In the game of baseball, there is no clock that could be run down. No taking a knee. No intentional fouling. Everybody has to play until the end.

I hope this is one of those moments the kids will remember forever. The day they didn't give up against a better team. The day they learned how important every member of the team can be. (Two kids who hadn't gotten hits all season each got a hit in that inning.) The day they came back, then held on. The day they learn how exciting baseball can really be.

[Limey]

Like flipping a coin, it may even out to 50:50, but in the short run it can go all heads...

[Phil_in_CS]

Not only a good story, that's teaching them the important lessons from sport.

[Astroholic]

This is why baseball is so great.

Two days ago, I was coaching my son's 8/9 year old Little League team and we were down 10-4 heading into the last inning. We had lost to this same team by 11 two weeks earlier. My players were not optimistic.

"We can't score 6 runs in one inning," one of them said.

"You don't have to score 6 runs... you just have to get on base. Each person's job this inning is just to get on base," I told them.

Guess what? Fifteen batters later, we had scored 10 runs to take a 14-10 lead heading into the bottom of the inning. We held them for the unlikely come-from-behind victory.

In the game of baseball, there is no clock that could be run down. No taking a knee. No intentional fouling. Everybody has to play until the end.

I hope this is one of those moments the kids will remember forever. The day they didn't give up against a better team. The day they learned how important every member of the team can be. (Two kids who hadn't gotten hits all season each got a hit in that inning.) The day they came back, then held on. The day they learn how exciting baseball can really be.

Great story.  I really wish there was no clock in LL, but that is not the case.  They have that schedule to keep up with. 

[Houston]

Great story.  I really wish there was no clock in LL, but that is not the case.  They have that schedule to keep up with. 

There was no clock in that game because we were the last game of the day. Otherwise, there would have been a two-hour or six-inning limit, whichever came first.

[Frobie]

"We can't score 6 runs in one inning," one of them said.

"You don't have to score 6 runs... you just have to get on base. Each person's job this inning is just to get on base," I told them.

Good job, coach!

[Astroholic]

There was no clock in that game because we were the last game of the day. Otherwise, there would have been a two-hour or six-inning limit, whichever came first.

Cool, great job coach.

[otterjb]

The comeback wins just seem more satisfying. 15-30 kinda thing. That seems like an experience that can translate to their current and later lives, pretty cool.

[JimR]

The comeback wins just seem more satisfying. 15-30 kinda thing. That seems like an experience that can translate to their current and later lives, pretty cool.

wait a minute. these guys are 8 and 9. it is not a life-changing experience.

winning thos games matters not at all. his lesson does.

[otterjb]

wait a minute. these guys are 8 and 9. it is not a life-changing experience.

winning thos games matters not at all. his lesson does.

Never said it was life-changing. Winning at age 8 and 9 doesn't matter at all, but they probably enjoyed it more than losing. I don't know, you'd have to ask the kids themselves.

[JimR]

Never said it was life-changing. Winning at age 8 and 9 doesn't matter at all, but they probably enjoyed it more than losing. I don't know, you'd have to ask the kids themselves.

i coached 8/9 year olds. they did not remember the score by the time they got to the concession stand. winning at that age only matters to parents and to some coaches.

[Outlawscotty]

I was just going to say something along these lines; my kid asks me on the way home if they won or not.

[Noe]

i coached 8/9 year olds. they did not remember the score by the time they got to the concession stand. winning at that age only matters to parents and to some coaches.

Coaching 8-9 year olds right now. Dead spot on.  All it takes is one parent coming over to my bench to ask "What's the score?" to make some kids say "oh yeah... what's the score?".  My wife handles our bench for me (make sure they have helmets on when they come to bat honey!), and she tells every one of them, including parents "Don't worry about it, it's not important".  The kids always say "cool... hey look at that butterfly! Awesome!".  Parents walk away shaking their heads because we're consistent.

One dad told his son on my team "Here is a cheer you should teach your team... "Hey now, let's beat the crap out of the other team!".  He thought it was funny.  So when we met on the mound before the game, the innocent little boy wanted to have all of us say the cheer he just learned.  I had to tell him his Dad wasn't serious and we would never do that even if he were.  He said "oh... okay!"

They never have a problem with who won or what the score was.  Instead they just love the fun we are having and the success they're having in catching, throwin and hitting.  Kids who couldn't do any one of those things now do it almost naturally.  We focus on that and when we meet again on the mound area to talk after the game is over, we go over all that... most kids saying "Wow, I got a hit today coach!" or another says "I caught the ball, did you see me?"  And then we all put our hands in and on the count of three give a cheer for the other team.  "Gooooooo Cardinals!".  Kids are so good to coach!

[otterjb]

i coached 8/9 year olds. they did not remember the score by the time they got to the concession stand. winning at that age only matters to parents and to some coaches.

Good point. The kids just playing to play is great. A few adults with their transfer of negative pent-up energy can bring it down. But I also think that with the right atmosphere there can be a self-appreciation for doing well, even for the younger kids themselves, and winning is a just apart of that. The cool part is that losing really doesn't mean anything at all. It was just fun.

[WulawHorn]

i coached 8/9 year olds. they did not remember the score by the time they got to the concession stand. winning at that age only matters to parents and to some coaches.

I must not be wired right (probably true). I kept score when nobody else did and hated losing, from 5 on. I didn't get it from either of my parents- they thought about not letting me play b/c I was too intense about stuff like that- I hated losing at anything at any time.

My brother was exactly as you described.  My friends were usually in between.

[Mr. Happy]

I must not be wired right (probably true). I kept score when nobody else did and hated losing, from 5 on. I didn't get it from either of my parents- they thought about not letting me play b/c I was too intense about stuff like that- I hated losing at anything at any time.

My brother was exactly as you described.  My friends were usually in between.

I was like you. My youngest son, age 9, hates to lose and takes a little while to get over every loss. However, my 12 year old just loves the game, no matter the result. I once got beat in a high school basketball game (pre-three point shot) at the buzzer by a three-quarter court shot, and I decided to walk the nine miles home at 10:00 p.m. I refused all rides. I just needed that alone time to get over it. However, Coach and Noe are right: most nine year olds don't remember the scores at all.

[JimR]

I was like you. My youngest son, age 9, hates to lose and takes a little while to get over every loss. However, my 12 year old just loves the game, no matter the result. I once got beat in a high school basketball game (pre-three point shot) at the buzzer by a three-quarter court shot, and I decided to walk the nine miles home at 10:00 p.m. I refused all rides. I just needed that alone time to get over it. However, Coach and Noe are right: most nine year olds don't remember the scores at all.

and should not. i feel sorry for the two of you.

[Outlawscotty]

Wonder if Charlie Hustle knew the score at nine?  Bet he did...

[BUWebguy]

Wonder if Charlie Hustle knew the score at nine?  Bet he did...

Sure, because he had lunch money riding on it.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Coaching 8-9 year olds right now. Dead spot on.  All it takes is one parent coming over to my bench to ask "What's the score?" to make some kids say "oh yeah... what's the score?".  My wife handles our bench for me (make sure they have helmets on when they come to bat honey!), and she tells every one of them, including parents "Don't worry about it, it's not important".  The kids always say "cool... hey look at that butterfly! Awesome!".  Parents walk away shaking their heads because we're consistent.

One dad told his son on my team "Here is a cheer you should teach your team... "Hey now, let's beat the crap out of the other team!".  He thought it was funny.  So when we met on the mound before the game, the innocent little boy wanted to have all of us say the cheer he just learned.  I had to tell him his Dad wasn't serious and we would never do that even if he were.  He said "oh... okay!"

They never have a problem with who won or what the score was.  Instead they just love the fun we are having and the success they're having in catching, throwin and hitting.  Kids who couldn't do any one of those things now do it almost naturally.  We focus on that and when we meet again on the mound area to talk after the game is over, we go over all that... most kids saying "Wow, I got a hit today coach!" or another says "I caught the ball, did you see me?"  And then we all put our hands in and on the count of three give a cheer for the other team.  "Gooooooo Cardinals!".  Kids are so good to coach!

I have quite a bit of time before I need to even consider this but what league does your son play in?  I ask because it sounds like the league I played in as a child, which was not a Little League affiliated league.  If it is Little League, that runs counter to everything I ever heard about LL.   I'd like to find a league that focuses on the thing you mentioned, should my son show any interest, so he can have some fun and enjoy the game rather than worry about winning and losing (if I had to venture a guess, I'd speculate that he's going to be one of those kids who doesn't know the score at the end of the game).

[Houston]

I have quite a bit of time before I need to even consider this but what league does your son play in?  I ask because it sounds like the league I played in as a child, which was not a Little League affiliated league.  If it is Little League, that runs counter to everything I ever heard about LL.   I'd like to find a league that focuses on the thing you mentioned, should my son show any interest, so he can have some fun and enjoy the game rather than worry about winning and losing (if I had to venture a guess, I'd speculate that he's going to be one of those kids who doesn't know the score at the end of the game).

My son and I participate in a league that is only loosely affiliated with Little League. All the rules are the same, except it's more of an instructional league at this level. That means the coach has the authority to help a batter in the batter's box, work with the pitcher, etc. Most of the time we play through just like a normal Little League game, but we have additional options to help the kids learn the game while on the field.

For you, I would recommend the YMCA. That league has a similar philosophy in which every kid plays and must play multiple positions to ensure everyone participates.

[JimR]

My son and I participate in a league that is only loosely affiliated with Little League. All the rules are the same, except it's more of an instructional league at this level. That means the coach has the authority to help a batter in the batter's box, work with the pitcher, etc. Most of the time we play through just like a normal Little League game, but we have additional options to help the kids learn the game while on the field.

For you, I would recommend the YMCA. That league has a similar philosophy in which every kid plays and must play multiple positions to ensure everyone participates.

in my never humble opinion, coaches should leave the kids alone in the batters box. there it is nothing more than "see the ball, hit the ball." there is such a thing as too much coaching.

[Noe]

For you, I would recommend the YMCA. That league has a similar philosophy in which every kid plays and must play multiple positions to ensure everyone participates.

I coach YMCA ball with the intent to integrate the kids and the parents into the mainstream Little Leagues.  The philosophy of "every kid plays and must play multiple positions" is a foundation however it isn't enforced as a rule per se.  It is just a very good groundwork for giving the coach the philosophy that should be used.  It is, in essence, a way to keep the coach and parents in line that this is about having fun.  Having said that, it is still important for the coach to teach and what I find dissengenous about some YMCA coaches is how lazy they are.  They treat some of these kids as if they're the dregs of baseball and rejects from "real" leagues.

They're not.  I could take my kids and maybe a handful of others from our YMCA league, practice with them for a week and then join the regular "select" league (sponsored by HEB, your friendly neighborhood store!) down the street and win many games.  You have to be careful about the attitude of the YMCA coach who thinks it isn't worth his time to teach these kids anything because he has to play everyone.  I love the challenge and usually the parents (and even other coaches) are surprised that "that kid!" got a hit or stopped the ball and threw out a runner.  Happens all the time.

All you have to do is teach.  Seriously, it's not rocket science.

Here is funny story that happened this Saturday at our game.  We show up and the other coach has five of his kids out for a variety of reasons.  Means he has to play with 6 kids.  The umpire left because he didn't think it was worth his time to call the three innings we were going to play.  Good ridance.  So the other coach and I agree to use this as a game to teach fundamentals to some kids.  So he has his six kids bat first, while I stand by the side of each kid to watch them swing.  After a few swings, I step in, point out just a few things they can do better (hold your hands higher, don't twist your body over towards third base, don't swing your leg all the way around like that... etc.)  I also teach each kid a key to look for to start their swing.  (Yes, I was timing their coach).  So a Dad and an older sibling are standing near the dugout fence to watch their son/younger brother hit.  He is supposedly the worse kid on that team and has not had a single solitary time he's hit the ball all year long.  His name is "Chance", which seemed fitting the way he was closing his eyes and swinging with a mighty uppercut to try and reach a ball that usually was coming in around his belt area.  So I call time out, and his Dad yells something or other... I didn't catch what he was saying mainly because I've learned to ignore some people.  Any way, I squat down to Chance's eye level and ask him to hold his bat up for me the way he's ready to swing the bat.  Once he does, I point his back elbow up a little bit to bring his hands up a little higher.  I also tell him not to close his eyes, but to look when his coach has the ball right about his ear level because that is where he is going to release the ball.  Once he sees that (and I had him intently look for that), then I wanted him to start his swing.  I also pointed out the tried and true aspect of "super glue your back foot so it doesn't move, okay?".  So he steps in, looks at me for a second, raises his hands to the right position, is starring closely at his coach ready to pitch to him, and take a mighty swing (level as can be now) when he sees the release point (key).  He meets bat on ball right on the sweet spot and hits a double to left center field.  What did I enjoy the most about the whole thing?

Was it the smile on the kids face standing on second?
Was it his coach's look when he does a double take that Chance hit that screamer?
Was it the entire bench for the opposing team yelling like crazy for their pal Chance?
Was it the parents for both teams getting all giddy for the kid that always strikes out?
Or was it his Dad crying out of sheer pride and his other son asking him over and over... "Was that CHANCE who hit the ball?!?!  Really!  WAY TO GO CHANCE!"?

If you said all of the above, you were right.

[Noe]

in my never humble opinion, coaches should leave the kids alone in the batters box. there it is nothing more than "see the ball, hit the ball." there is such a thing as too much coaching.

I don't over coach though I point out things they should do and then tell them "swing the bat" and let them go.  All my kids hit the ball well, and some of the parents are surprised that their kid, who has never played baseball before is actually hitting a baseball that easily.  I just think if a kid is closing his eyes and swinging the bat like a golf club, then I can do something about it without over doing it.

[Houston]

I don't over coach though I point out things they should do and then tell them "swing the bat" and let them go.  All my kids hit the ball well, and some of the parents are surprised that their kid, who has never played baseball before is actually hitting a baseball that easily.  I just think if a kid is closing his eyes and swinging the bat like a golf club, then I can do something about it without over doing it.

There's one kid on my team who would probably hold the barrel of the bat if he weren't reminded the way he should hold it. This kid doesn't seem unintelligent, but he has the attention span of a gnat. He has only played RF this season, yet he has to be reminded where RF is each inning. Thankfully, he's the only kid like that, but he'd never be able to play without constant coaching. Saturday, he actually got his first base hit. He was so excited when he reached first base that he rounded it and jumped up and down in fair territory. We yelled at him to get on the base, but before he could, he was tagged out by the first baseman.

[Curly]

Fantastic Noe, most coaches can agree with you on that feeling.  I put myself in as an "coach" not manager because I haven't completely harnessed my competitiveness, despite my love for teaching these kids the game.  The funny thing about that is that while I might be the most "intense" of the coaches on the team, I also take on the most challenging kids too.  My son is in coach pitch, and we have a 6 kid protection list and then we draft players based on their tryouts.  So far I think I've been a pretty good judge of the talent, picking up the ringers and picking up the kids that look like they want to play, but need some help.  I avoid the hotshots, or the kids/parents with the "attitude" problems.
We have Spring ball and Fall ball and the Fall is all about preparing the kids for the Spring which can be pretty competitive.  We have 12 kids on the team , so the last of our 6 picks in the draft was a kid nobody knew, showed up for the tryouts without a bat or helmet, using his older brothers glove, and didn't come close to hitting the ball, looked lost on the field.  All the coaches obviously marked him down as a big project as did I.  But I noted to the side of my "1" score (out of five) that he "ran bases (ever so slow) and left the field with a big smile." So needless to say, nearing the end of the draft there was this kid.  I told the manager that I would work with him and they said, he was all mine.  Don't get me wrong, the other coaches on this team work really hard with the kids, but they knew he would need a lot of time.
Kid looked down at the ground and led with the wrong foot when throwing.  Swing was more like tomahawk chop, which is actually easier to fix than an uppercut!  Worked a lot with a hitting stick to level out his swing, and then with the hit n zip (the Jeter thing that I first thought was a joke of a device) which has actually been fantastic for teaching all the kids how to time the incoming pitch.  After the four games he was hitless (actually contactless), I could never get the ball high enough or time my pitch right to meet his bat half way.  The parents and coaches cheering along as for every kid...but in the fifth game, (queue up the French horns from the Natural) he made contact, and holy cow, you would think the Stros won the WS.  Not only was did he get his first hit, but it was a "walk off single" :-)  He won the game for us in a huge come from behind victory.  In this league, if you are the "pitcher" you are a robot and are not allowed to communicate with the batter at any time...so my silence just erupted with joy as I ran over to 1b and picked him up and held him in the air for everyone to see, including his grandmother who was there for to see her first game.  Just like they right it up!
There is so much joy in coaching this game, and it's hard to understand sometimes how some coaches forget about taking on the hard cases.  I'm one to believe that it's not "all" about winning.  That being said, because the majority of the kids on the team understand the score and if they won or lost, I also want to help them understand to go out and have fun and that losing happens and is a part of the game, but not the desired outcome.  (I don't think there is really a good way to put that into words on here), but I think you all know what I mean...kind of like the exception not the rule type of thing.  You and I know that in most cases that winning is more fun for everyone, but in the end everyone gets a star for their hat for trying their hardest.

On a side note for those coach pitch coaches...is there anything more humbling than striking out your own players...much less your own kid!  Exactly how do you respond to that "dad, what the hell was that pitch" look from you own kid?

Ok, I’ve spent way to many company dollars on this, so I’m not proof reading, if you find grammar mistakes and feel it necessary to point them out then so be it.

[Curly]

There's one kid on my team who would probably hold the barrel of the bat if he weren't reminded the way he should hold it. This kid doesn't seem unintelligent, but he has the attention span of a gnat. He has only played RF this season, yet he has to be reminded where RF is each inning. Thankfully, he's the only kid like that, but he'd never be able to play without constant coaching. Saturday, he actually got his first base hit. He was so excited when he reached first base that he rounded it and jumped up and down in fair territory. We yelled at him to get on the base, but before he could, he was tagged out by the first baseman.

This guessing this went one of two ways: The kid didn't care and was smiling back to the dougout, or didn't understand and needed a pep talk back to the dugout.

[Houston]

This guessing this went one of two ways: The kid didn't care and was smiling back to the dougout, or didn't understand and needed a pep talk back to the dugout.

Your first guess would be the correct one. He was blissfully oblivious to the whole situation.

[Noe]

On a side note for those coach pitch coaches...is there anything more humbling than striking out your own players...much less your own kid!  Exactly how do you respond to that "dad, what the hell was that pitch" look from you own kid?

We played a team two weeks ago and the Dad pitching for them decided to throw sidearm to all the kids.  I don't mean side arm in the three quarters sense, I mean in the almost from Laredo sense.  It was seriously perplexing and there were times his ball went behind some of those kids who spent more time ducking and getting out of the way of his pitches than actually swinging the bat.

It was a big joke for him to do that, but the guy didn't care, he was showing off to his wife/girlfriend/date/rent-a-woman that came with him I suppose.  Some parents started in on him by the second inning to stop the crap, but he just kept on doing it.  A Dad from my team came up to me after the game and put his arm around me and said "hey coach, I am so glad you don't do what some of these other coaches do... can you believe that guy pitching to those kids, I mean really... what was wrong with him?"  I just shook my head because I honestly didn't know.

First game of the season though, I did strike out my own son.  But we talked about it after the game and I pointed out that he was trying so hard to impress me, he wasn't looking at the ball, but at me when he swung the bat.  I told him I knew he was doing everythign I taught him to do, so he didn't need to worry about that at all.  Nor did he need to look at me to see if I was dissappointed in him or even proud of him.  I was very happy and proud of him no matter what and we talked again about "having fun!".

So the next game, he went 3 for 3, with two line shots to right field.  My son is a lefty batter and has a very pretty swing.  But having me be the coach has it's drawbacks for him.  I have to keep myself aware of when I see him trying so hard to impress me instead of just playing ball and having fun.  He does the latter all the time now and much of the game comes naturally to him now.

[sporadic]

and should not. i feel sorry for the two of you.
[/quot

Why?  There is nothing wrong with wanting to win badly. Most people who succeed in life do so because of their competitiveness.  My son is only 2, but I hope he has that internal drive to win.  There is nothing wrong with being hyper competitive so long as you are not a poor loser, or poor winner, for that matter.

[JimR]

and should not. i feel sorry for the two of you.
[/quot

Why?  There is nothing wrong with wanting to win badly. Most people who succeed in life do so because of their competitiveness.  My son is only 2, but I hope he has that internal drive to win.  There is nothing wrong with being hyper competitive so long as you are not a poor loser, or poor winner, for that matter.

sorry for you too. no, wait. i feel sorriest for your two year old.

[sporadic]

sorry for you too. no, wait. i feel sorriest for your two year old.

No need to do that, I said I hoped he was competitive, not that I was going to be a "win at all cost" dad.  I do not understand why you veiw this as a bad thing.  Perhaps I am completely missing your point.

[MRaup]

No need to do that, I said I hoped he was competitive, not that I was going to be a "win at all cost" dad.  I do not understand why you veiw this as a bad thing.  Perhaps I am completely missing your point.

Little league is about having fun and learning baseball.

Most kids that get turned off to the game usually lose interest because of daddy screaming/yelling at them from the stands, and when they get home.

I can't tell you how many great ball players were turned off of the game due to overbearing parents thinking they were helping by being the win-at-all-costs living through their kid parent.

[WulawHorn]

Little league is about having fun and learning baseball.

Most kids that get turned off to the game usually lose interest because of daddy screaming/yelling at them from the stands, and when they get home.

I can't tell you how many great ball players were turned off of the game due to overbearing parents thinking they were helping by being the win-at-all-costs living through their kid parent.

Like I said- that wasn't my dad at all. 

He was our manager and was a great one. We didn't win all that much in baseball (we dominated in basketball though) but he played everyone, and usually more than the required 2 innings and bat once. 

Even the crapiest players were told that they would get 3 games throughout the year (about 18 games per year) where they would play all six innings, and they got to choose their position within reason.  This way they could invite grandma and grandpa, aunts and uncles so that they could see little johnnie play an entire game. And even the worst players would get to play 4 innings 3 or 4 other times.

You either played 2, 4 or 6 innings, and the better kids played 6 more often, but they played 2 innings every now and again also.  Most played at least 4, every game, and didn't get buried. Dad never raised his voice during a game, except for the game he got into a yelling screaming match with the coach of the other team that was the typical little league dad.  He got after us in practice if we weren't trying/paying attention, but never yelled during the games b/c he said that practice was the time to teach and the game was to have fun.

Like I said- I got it on my own being pissed about losses. I hope that I can be as good a coach some day as my dad.

If my kid acted like me I might worry about it a little bit, but I think I grew up reasonably well adjusted.

I will say basketball was way worse than baseball- b/c we lost so infrequently it killed me when we did.

[sporadic]

Little league is about having fun and learning baseball.

Most kids that get turned off to the game usually lose interest because of daddy screaming/yelling at them from the stands, and when they get home.

I can't tell you how many great ball players were turned off of the game due to overbearing parents thinking they were helping by being the win-at-all-costs living through their kid parent.

Didn't I say specifically I was not going to be like that?  I know it is about having fun...I had fun, but played to win.  I do not want my son learning that not doing something 100% is ever OK.  It is not right to ever half ass it.  Not in School.  Not at work.  Not in your marriage.  Not in life.  Successful people think like that.    Is it wrong to expect your son/daughter to give maximum effort?  And my dad would express displeasure with me from time to time (never from the stands and rarely at home, but if I asked him to come help me practice he would want me to give my best effort all of the time) - that did not make him an overbearing parent.  Also, when we did lose I did not throw tantrums, I congratulated the other team and shook their hand...my father taught me that it was unacceptable behavior to act any other way.

[JimR]

Didn't I say specifically I was not going to be like that?  I know it is about having fun...I had fun, but played to win.  I do not want my son learning that not doing something 100% is ever OK.  It is not right to ever half ass it.  Not in School.  Not at work.  Not in your marriage.  Not in life.  Successful people think like that.    Is it wrong to expect your son/daughter to give maximum effort?  And my dad would express displeasure with me from time to time (never from the stands and rarely at home, but if I asked him to come help me practice he would want me to give my best effort all of the time) - that did not make him an overbearing parent.  Also, when we did lose I did not throw tantrums, I congratulated the other team and shook their hand...my father taught me that it was unacceptable behavior to act any other way.

so, you finished #1 in your class? no? you loser.

did you get a college scholarship? loser again, right?

did you sign a pro contract? no? wow, what a loser.

so, you are a success in everything?

you have described what is wrong with youth sports today. you can squeeze the fun out of everything with your attitude.

[T. J.]

Didn't I say specifically I was not going to be like that?  I know it is about having fun...I had fun, but played to win.  I do not want my son learning that not doing something 100% is ever OK.  It is not right to ever half ass it. 

I hope you're not posting from work.

[sporadic]

so, you finished #1 in your class? no? you loser.

did you get a college scholarship? loser again, right?

did you sign a pro contract? no? wow, what a loser.

so, you are a success in everything?

you have described what is wrong with youth sports today. you can squeeze the fun out of everything with your attitude.

No, but top 10.
Yes, I did.
No pro contract, but I played in a sport for where that is non-existent...and I played professionally for three years.
and yes, I have been successful in my career, thus far.

[sporadic]

I hope you're not posting from work.

Got me there!  But, in my defense I am between appointments.

[JimR]

No, but top 10.

half ass loser.

seriously, you need to chill out. i coached kids for years, and your attitude is awful for kids' sports.

[sporadic]

No, but top 10.
Yes, I did.
No pro contract, but I played in a sport for where that is non-existent...and I played professionally for three years.
and yes, I have been successful in my career, thus far.

You still there, Jim?  Wanna rag on me some more without knowing anything at all about me?  Would you like me to send you a resume of my Junior, College and Pro Career?  It may not have been the best in the world, but I competed at a pretty high level.  These experiences helped me become a successful person - that is the point I have been trying to make.  Yes, there are overbearing parents, but expecting 100% effort does not necessarily mean you expect your child to win...big difference. My dad never got angry with me for not winning, just if I acted like an ass or did not play hard.

[sporadic]

half ass loser.

seriously, you need to chill out. i coached kids for years, and your attitude is awful for kids' sports.

I do NOT have a bad attitude.  This is the attitiude that was instilled in me from a young age.  My father is a very respected, record setting coach in this state who is beloved by everyone that has ever played for him.

[JimR]

I do NOT have a bad attitude.  This is the attitiude that was instilled in me from a young age.  My father is a very respected, record setting coach in this state who is beloved by everyone that has ever played for him.

NO coach is beloved by everyone he coached.

i was some of those things your dad was, too, i am am saying without equivocation that the attitude you typed today is bad for kids' sports. chill.

[sporadic]

That may be true, but you will not hear a bad thing said about him...that I can guarantee.  I do not understand why you have such a problem with expecting 100% effort.  Every kid can do that regardless of their skill level.  As a coach was it ever OK for one of your kids to not give maximum effort?  That has been the only point I have tried to convey and it has been competely missed.

[Noe]

I know it is about having fun...I had fun, but played to win.

What was your reaction when you loss?  What is your son's reaction when you lose?  Playing to win is an obscure concept... can you explain it to me succinctly.  Do you mean doing your best or do you mean that you have to look at the scoreboard for affirmation that you were successful?

I'd like to know.

[Noe]

That may be true, but you will not hear a bad thing said about him...that I can guarantee.  I do not understand why you have such a problem with expecting 100% effort.  Every kid can do that regardless of their skill level.  As a coach was it ever OK for one of your kids to not give maximum effort?  That has been the only point I have tried to convey and it has been competely missed.

BUt you said "... played to win..." which means so many different things to so many different people.  What specifically do you mean by that phrase?

[MRaup]

Giving maximum effort and winning do not nessecarily meet each other on the road of life.

Everyone should always give 100 percent effort. Trying to say that you'll win because you put in 100 percent effort is un-realisitic as well as ridiculous.

[WulawHorn]

NO coach is beloved by everyone he coached.

i was some of those things your dad was, too, i am am saying without equivocation that the attitude you typed today is bad for kids' sports. chill.

His dad is the greatest coach I've ever seen or played for. It's funny- he raised him the way that it was explained- but now he kinda echos what you are saying jim- he's mellowed a bit.

I think it is fair to expect 100% effort and attention in what you are doing.  Results-  no way, effort, sure.

There were probably a couple people who didn't like his dad but that was their malfunction, not his. His dad was a great coach for every talent level available- awesome.  I want to teach/coach b/c of peope like my mom (teacher) and his dad (teacher/coach).

I think from what Noe types he has got to be one hell of a little league coach. I know my dad was (minus the part that he knew little about teaching the mechanics of baseball/hitting- but he tried and was a great and fair organizer).

It's nice that many on here get it.  I just don't think it's bad if a kid really wants to win b/c of that kid. It always drove me.

[sporadic]

BUt you said "... played to win..." which means so many different things to so many different people.  What specifically do you mean by that phrase?

I did play to win...I always did it in a sportsmanlike way, as I was taught was the only way to play - I did not mean win at all cost, nor did I say that.  I played very hard and that is what you have to do to win, thus I played to win.

[JimR]

That may be true, but you will not hear a bad thing said about him...that I can guarantee.  I do not understand why you have such a problem with expecting 100% effort.  Every kid can do that regardless of their skill level.  As a coach was it ever OK for one of your kids to not give maximum effort?  That has been the only point I have tried to convey and it has been competely missed.

NO ONE gives maximum effort in everything they do...not even you.

i wanted my players to give their best, of course, but that does not always mean win.

i coached at a fairly high level of competition, but we lost some big games.

better calm down before you try to coach your own son. turn him over to someone who believes in fun, not maximum effort/winning. HS is soon enough for your attitude, if then.

[JimR]

I   I played very hard and that is what you have to do to win, thus I played to win.

oh, please.

[sporadic]

What was your reaction when you loss?  What is your son's reaction when you lose?  Playing to win is an obscure concept... can you explain it to me succinctly.  Do you mean doing your best or do you mean that you have to look at the scoreboard for affirmation that you were successful?

I'd like to know.

I won and lost with class.  I do not have to look at a scoreboard to know my best.  I played in an era where my best was in no way good enough (I played against quite possibly the best athlete on the planet right now), but that did not make me any less successful.

[WulawHorn]

NO ONE gives maximum effort in everything they do...not even you.

i wanted my players to give their best, of course, but that does not always mean win.

i coached at a fairly high level of competition, but we lost some big games.

better calm down before you try to coach your own son. turn him over to someone who believes in fun, not maximum effort/winning. HS is soon enough for your attitude, if then.

I always had a hard time separating the fun from winning.  I never wanted to play with no score kept, or people who were half assed about rules/structure of the game. It just was not fun for me.  If I lost I was a pain in the ass to be around and it ruined my day. My folks used to look at me like I was crazy. I wasn't allowed to play recess for a semester by them- they thought I was too intense- that killed me having to watch the other kids play- but it made me treat my teammates and opponents better- b/c if I didn't do that I wasn't allowed to play. I was probably harder on myself then anyone else, but I didn't find the 9 year old wearing his glove on his head in left field amusing in any way, shape or form.

[JimR]

I always had a hard time separating the fun from winning.  I never wanted to play with no score kept, or people who were half assed about rules/structure of the game. It just was not fun for me.  If I lost I was a pain in the ass to be around and it ruined my day. My folks used to look at me like I was crazy. I wasn't allowed to play recess for a semester by them- they thought I was too intense- that killed me having to watch the other kids play- but it made me treat my teammates and opponents better- b/c if I didn't do that I wasn't allowed to play. I was probably harder on myself then anyone else, but I didn't find the 9 year old wearing his glove on his head in left field amusing in any way, shape or form.

too bad for you. i'm sorry.

[Noe]

I did play to win...I always did it in a sportsmanlike way, as I was taught was the only way to play - I did not mean win at all cost, nor did I say that.  I played very hard and that is what you have to do to win, thus I played to win.

The opposite is of course, to play to lose?  Do you think anyone advocates that?  If so, how is what anyone is saying anything different than your not so well defined as of yet "played to win"?

I can't grasp what you're saying just yet because you haven't said how you reacted to losing, which is the greater test of your sportsmanship than the actual winning.  Baseball is a game designed to break your heart and your best players fail 7 out of 10 times.  So it is a great teacher of how to handle failure.  And guess what, if you know how to handle failure, you will *win*.  Imagine that.

So please, expand to me what you're saying because I'm not quite sure if we have a disagreement or if you're just not saying it right yet.

[sporadic]

NO ONE gives maximum effort in everything they do...not even you.

i wanted my players to give their best, of course, but that does not always mean win.

i coached at a fairly high level of competition, but we lost some big games.

better calm down before you try to coach your own son. turn him over to someone who believes in fun, not maximum effort/winning. HS is soon enough for your attitude, if then.

That's true, but if you make a conscious effort to give your best it makes all of the difference in the world.  And I never said high effort means you will always win.  But it will determine of whether you see yourself as a winner or not.  And I refuse to coach my son.  I do not have the paience my dad has.  I realize that.  

[MRaup]

The Coach coached LL baseball, Pony League, and high school ball the way he is preaching.

His dad is the greatest coach I've ever seen or played for. It's funny- he raised him the way that it was explained- but now he kinda echos what you are saying jim- he's mellowed a bit.

I think it is fair to expect 100% effort and attention in what you are doing.  Results-  no way, effort, sure.

There were probably a couple people who didn't like his dad but that was their malfunction, not his. His dad was a great coach for every talent level available- awesome.  I want to teach/coach b/c of peope like my mom (teacher) and his dad (teacher/coach).

I think from what Noe types he has got to be one hell of a little league coach. I know my dad was (minus the part that he knew little about teaching the mechanics of baseball/hitting- but he tried and was a great and fair organizer).

It's nice that many on here get it.  I just don't think it's bad if a kid really wants to win b/c of that kid. It always drove me.

[Curly]

NO ONE gives maximum effort in everything they do...not even you.

i wanted my players to give their best, of course, but that does not always mean win.

i coached at a fairly high level of competition, but we lost some big games.

better calm down before you try to coach your own son. turn him over to someone who believes in fun, not maximum effort/winning. HS is soon enough for your attitude, if then.

You're losing me coach?  So don't give it 100% while your out there on the field?  It's ok to slack off and cause your team to lose while the other 8 kids on the field do everything they can to play the game right?

[JimR]

That's true, but if you make a conscious effort to give your best it makes all of the difference in the world.  And I never said high effort means you will always win.  But it will determine of whether you see yourself as a winner or not.  And I refuse to coach my son.  I do not have the paience my dad has.  I realize that.  

so why do you have to "see yourself as a winner?" you give your best effort, and you lose. why do you have to say "that's ok. you're a winner?"

you have some issues.

[sporadic]

The opposite is of course, to play to lose?  Do you think anyone advocates that?  If so, how is what anyone is saying anything different than you not so well defined as of yet "played to win"?

I can't grasp what you're saying just yet because you haven't said how you reacted to losing, which is the greater test of your sportsmanship than the actual winning.  Baseball is a game designed to break your heart and your best players fail 7 out of 10 times.  So it is a great teacher of how to handle failure.  And guess what, if you know how to handle failure, you will *win*.  Imagine that.

So please, expand to me what you're saying because I'm not quite sure if we have a disagreement or if you're just not saying it right yet.

I played a sport where you lose far more than you win, and I still see myself as a success.  You are defined in golf with how you respond to adversity and moreso, how you overcome it.  I "handled" failure by being secure with the thought that I played as hard as I could.

[MRaup]

You're losing me coach?  So don't give it 100% while your out there on the field?  It's ok to slack off and cause your team to lose while the other 8 kids on the field do everything they can to play the game right?

We're talking about Little League here, Curly.

Little League is supposed to be fun and teach fundamentals.

[Jacksonian]

That's true, but if you make a conscious effort to give your best it makes all of the difference in the world.  And I never said high effort means you will always win.  But it will determine of whether you see yourself as a winner or not.  And I refuse to coach my son.  I do not have the paience my dad has.  I realize that.  

You're a psychologist?

[JimR]

"I still see myself as a success"

wow

[sporadic]

The Coach coached LL baseball, Pony League, and high school ball the way he is preaching.

My dad has won 7 consecutive state golf titles, and 10 in his career.  He won't "preach" for himself...I have to do it for him.  But thanks for playing.

[Noe]

I won and lost with class.

Would it be better to say you played with class.  Winning and losing has so many factors involved, including having an actual opponent.  Unless you're talking about individual sports where you test yourself (like golf), playing a team game has so many factors out of your hands to allow you to clearly define winning and losing as a end all, be all.  That is what is great about the game... playing with a team that has the interest of doing things well, helping fulfill their part and in the end being satisfied that everything was done right.

I do not have to look at a scoreboard to know my best.  I played in an era where my best was in no way good enough (I played against quite possibly the best athlete on the planet right now), but that did not make me any less successful.

I think a team game is quite different than an individual sport in how you play.  Too many variables are involved in team game to make you think like what you described.

[MRaup]

My dad has won 7 consecutive state golf titles, and 10 in his career.  He won't "preach" for himself...I have to do it for him.  But thanks for playing.

He won them? Or his team won them?

[sporadic]

You're a psychologist?

No, but I studied the psychology of sports...you have to be mentally strong in order to compete ata high level.

[sporadic]

He won them? Or his team won them?

His team, of course.  But the question itself implies that you believe the coach has nothing to do with winning.

[Noe]

I played a sport where you lose far more than you win, and I still see myself as a success.  You are defined in golf with how you respond to adversity and moreso, how you overcome it.  I "handled" failure by being secure with the thought that I played as hard as I could.

I'm sure it's a bit different to be involved in team sports than it is in individual sports.  You should read John Wooden's book on winning because it applies to business as well.  Excellent books on what it means to be successful.  It might shock some folks who think Wooden won championships because he advocated some of those "win at all cost" type of attitudes.

Far, far, far from it.

[sporadic]

Would it be better to say you played with class.  Winning and losing has so many factors involved, including having an actual opponent.  Unless you're talking about individual sports where you test yourself (like golf), playing a team game has so many factors out of your hands to allow you to clearly define winning and losing as a end all, be all.  That is what is great about the game... playing with a team that has the interest of doing things well, helping fulfill their part and in the end being satisfied that everything was done right.

I think a team game is quite different than an individual sport in how you play.  Too many variables are involved in team game to make you think like what you described.

My experiences are all golf related...so success sometimes had to be internal - impossible to win on effort alone.  At the end of the day, you have to believe you did your best.

[sporadic]

I'm sure it's a bit different to be involved in team sports than it is in individual sports.  You should read John Wooden's book on winning because it applies to business as well.  Excellent books on what it means to be successful.  It might shock some folks who think Wooden won championships because he advocated some of those "win at all cost" type of attitudes.

Far, far, far from it.

Will do...I believe my dad actually has that book.  And I am in no way a proponent of "win at all costs".

[MRaup]

My experiences are all golf related...so success sometimes had to be internal - impossible to win on effort alone.  At the end of the day, you have to believe you did your best.

Comparing golf to baseball is just about the worst idea ever.

[sporadic]

Comparing golf to baseball is just about the worst idea ever.

I never compared the two.  My whole point is about giving 100% and that being competitive is not necessarily a bad thing.

[sporadic]

Comparing golf to baseball is just about the worst idea ever.

Why are you trying to be so argumentative?  This is just like the stupid team question you threw out here earlier.

[MRaup]

Why are you trying to be so argumentative?  This is just like the stupid team question you threw out here earlier.

How high a level did you play baseball?

[Curly]

Comparing golf to baseball is just about the worst idea ever.

 Why?  If you give your best, that's all that you can do.  If at the end of the game/round you feel that you did what you could on that given day then that's all you can ask.  

[Noe]

My experiences are all golf related...so success sometimes had to be internal - impossible to win on effort alone.  At the end of the day, you have to believe you did your best.

But again, we're talking little league here and the actual game of baseball which requires quite a different attitude than "play to win".  It is a semi-dangerous attitude in baseball to come in with said attitude because it can easily be a carried away to wrong levels in this team sport.  You can play to win (whatever that means actually, because it varies) and still have one teammate who just doesn't have the ball bounce right to make the out necessary to secure said win.  Think Billy Buckner if you will.  Baseball has variables, like the bounce of the ball, like injury, like luck, like having an opponent who is out there playing the game as well.  In the end, one team has less runs than the other, but both had opportunities to win because they had opportunities to handle the inherent failures in the game.

That is why in baseball, you never get too high after a win or too low after a loss.  Fans do, but players don't.  They know there is always tomorrow, that being able to swing a bat and try to hit a ball is a great feeling and you get to do it again and again and again... and fail most of the time, but man... you get to do it again and again.  Is this sinking in?  Those who keep this attitude intact and understand this will *win* in baseball.  I don't know how this would translate for golf or any other sport, but in baseball it is entirely about getting out there and playing with your team against someone else and then doing it again and again and again and having the most appreciation that you're getting to do something that is fun to do.

[Noe]

Why?  If you give your best, that's all that you can do.  If at the end of the game/round you feel that you did what you could on that given day then that's all you can ask. 

Team sport is different than individual sports.  The worse players in baseball are those who are individuals.  Even though they may hit the ball successfully, the team will rarely compete well with a disjointed effort in terms of team.

You know that.

[JimR]

You're losing me coach?  So don't give it 100% while your out there on the field?  It's ok to slack off and cause your team to lose while the other 8 kids on the field do everything they can to play the game right?

sure, Curly. that's what i said.

i can't understand it for you. i think i'll just leave it to "i'm a winner" sporadic.

[sporadic]

How high a level did you play baseball?

I was above average as a little leaguer, but stopped once I realized I like golf more.  It did not hurt that I was well above average at golf.  But this has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make.  I do not understand why you keep trying to argue points I have not attempted to make.  

[JimR]

My dad has won 7 consecutive state golf titles, and 10 in his career.  He won't "preach" for himself...I have to do it for him.  But thanks for playing.

he did not win a damn thing. he coached kids who won.

[MRaup]

 Why?  If you give your best, that's all that you can do.  If at the end of the game/round you feel that you did what you could on that given day then that's all you can ask.  

Right, but in golf, there isn't someone standing in front of the hole ready to catch your perfectly hit 9 Iron shot.

Your best, skill-wise, is the end all/be all of what happens for you.

In baseball, no matter how perfectly you swing, someone can make a great play and nullify it.

[sporadic]

sure, Curly. that's what i said.

i can't understand it for you. i think i'll just leave it to "i'm a winner" sporadic.

I do not understand why you are being such an ass.  I have never said anything about winning at all costs or being overbearing, just expecting effort.  I felt like I had "won" if I gave it my best.  Why does that make me such a target for your crap?

[Jacksonian]

No, but I studied the psychology of sports...you have to be mentally strong in order to compete ata high level.

High effort does not cause you to see yourself as a winner.

[EasTexAstro]

They know there is always tomorrow, that being able to swing a bat and try to hit a ball is a great feeling and you get to do it again and again and again... and fail most of the time, but man... you get to do it again and again. 

So...it is like sex?

[sporadic]

Right, but in golf, there isn't someone standing in front of the hole ready to catch your perfectly hit 9 Iron shot.

Your best, skill-wise, is the end all/be all of what happens for you.

In baseball, no matter how perfectly you swing, someone can make a great play and nullify it.

In golf you can hit a perfect nine iron and the wind comes up...ball ballons and goes in the water or a bunker.  A putt can hit a spike mark and go astray.  There are many unknown variables in golf.

[Jacksonian]

So...it is like sex?

Only if it's with yourself.

[JimR]

So...it is like sex?

only if "you see yourself as a winner" after it is over.

[sporadic]

High effort does not cause you to see yourself as a winner.

True, that only comes from your self perception.  If you aspire to be great you have to believe that you are.  I chose to think of myself as a winner no matter what to give myself the confidence I could succeed the nect time I competed.

[Curly]

only if "you see yourself as a winner" after it is over.

Isn't that what they call "happy ending".

[MRaup]

In golf you can hit a perfect nine iron and the wind comes up...ball ballons and goes in the water or a bunker.  A putt can hit a spike mark and go astray.  There are many unknown variables in golf.

Those variables can come up in baseball too. Ever seen a ball rolling down the line and suddenly it takes a right turn and goes foul because it just hit a pebble?

Ever seen the wind push down a long fly ball that should've gone out?

Or push a ball out that was just a pop fly?

That still doesn't take in to account the defense.

In golf you battle yourself.

[Curly]

True, that only comes from your self perception.  If you aspire to be great you have to believe that you are.  I chose to think of myself as a winner no matter what to give myself the confidence I could succeed the nect time I competed.

...and gosh darn it, people like me.

[sporadic]

Those variables can come up in baseball too. Ever seen a ball rolling down the line and suddenly it takes a right turn and goes foul because it just hit a pebble?

Ever seen the wind push down a long fly ball that should've gone out?

Or push a ball out that was just a pop fly?

That still doesn't take in to account the defense.

In golf you battle yourself.

Again, I am not trying to compare golf and baseball.  I have been defending my stance it is OK to be competitive.

[JimR]

True, that only comes from your self perception.  If you aspire to be great you have to believe that you are.  I chose to think of myself as a winner no matter what to give myself the confidence I could succeed the nect time I competed.

oh, my.

[T. J.]

So...it is like sex?

No, that's golf too.  You don't have to be an athlete to do it, and you don't have to be good at it to enjoy it.

[Curly]

Better than thinking he was a bucket of crap and trying to be a bed of roses.  Although the crap can help make the roses grow faster, stronger and smell better.  

Somewhere in there remindes me of a saying my Grandpa always told me "the grass is always greener over the septic tank".

[sporadic]

...and gosh darn it, people like me.

That really is funny.  But seriously, you have to think like that in a sport where you fail more than you succeed or you will go crazy.  I am trying to convey the attitude of a professional athlete and the competitve drive that got them there.  There are probably not many people on this board that have experienced professional sports first hand.  The psyche of the people that play is unbelievable.  They are hyper competitive, highly motivated and extremely diciplined in their craft.  I just do not think that these are bad attributes to have (if you are not a complete ass when you lose or win, or if winning itself defines you as a person).

[MRaup]

That really is funny.  But seriously, you have to think like that in a sport where you fail more than you succeed or you will go crazy.  I am trying to convey the attitude of a professional athlete and the competitve drive that got them there.  There are probably not many people on this board that have experienced professional sports first hand.  The psyche of the people that play is unbelievable.  They are hyper competitive, highly motivated and extremely diciplined in their craft.  I just do not think that these are bad attributes to have (if you are not a complete ass when you lose or win, or if winning itself defines you as a person).

Wait... Are you Lance Berkman?

[JimR]

Again, I am not trying to compare golf and baseball.  I have been defending my stance it is OK to be competitive.

actually, you said it is ok : "There is nothing wrong with being hyper competitive so long as you are not a poor loser, or poor winner, for that matter."

what is "hyper competitive?"

better chill before he starts playing

[Jacksonian]

True, that only comes from your self perception.

Seeing yourself as a winner comes from your self perception.  Round and round.

If you aspire to be great you have to believe that you are.

Um, not.

I chose to think of myself as a winner no matter what to give myself the confidence I could succeed the nect time I competed.

The self-deluded do that too.



Perhaps you should define clearly your definition of "winner" because the way it reads makes you come off looking bad.

[sporadic]

oh, my.

Why does the mentality of 99% of professional athletes (or at least 99% of the ones that I personally know) and how I used it to be the best I could be draw that kind of response from you, Jim?  If I had been one of your players (should I had the same talent in baseball I had in golf) you would have loved my attitude and you villify it here.

[Ty in Tampa]

I chose to think of myself as a winner no matter what.

So winning doesn't define you as a person?

[JimR]

That really is funny.  But seriously, you have to think like that in a sport where you fail more than you succeed or you will go crazy.  I am trying to convey the attitude of a professional athlete and the competitve drive that got them there.  There are probably not many people on this board that have experienced professional sports first hand.  The psyche of the people that play is unbelievable.  They are hyper competitive, highly motivated and extremely diciplined in their craft.  I just do not think that these are bad attributes to have (if you are not a complete ass when you lose or win, or if winning itself defines you as a person).

you may be too late. you are comparing adult professionals to LL players and saying it is ok for kids to act like those adults.

better get a clue.

[Noe]

Will do...I believe my dad actually has that book.  And I am in no way a proponent of "win at all costs".

Coach Wooden never even preached "win" at all to his players.  Read the chapter on "Competitive Greatness", it's very good.   Remember now, this is Coach Wooden who won all those championships too.  And it's about team, not individuals.

Best moment this season (and I will tell my team this story on our last day of practice, which is actually a surprise for them because all my parents and me are going to throw an ice cream party for them instead):

Laudon is playing behind the coach in the pitcher's position.  I put him there because during practice, he always did the defense practice I taught of putting the glove down and being ready to catch and throw.  Simple stuff really, but he did it well.  So here is his chance to apply what he did well.  Remember Branch Rickey said that luck is luck is preparation meeting opportunity.  Laudon's Dad is in Atlanta for a three month project and he talks to me about missing his Dad at every practice... and also how glad he is that I'm his coach if his Dad can't be here to be his coach.  So I put him right there at pitcher during said game about three weeks ago.  He has that deer in the headlights look and he is a bit scared.  His Mom stands up to the fence from her lawn chair and immediately says "It's okay Laudon, it's okay!".  She knows something but is trying to keep it cool for Laudon's sake.  First ball hit to Laudon, he muffs it and it's a hit.  Second one the same, third one he catches, throws to first and it's wild and sails over the head of the first baseman.  With every error or misplay he makes, tears well up in his eyes.  Some parents are muttering, some are just hoping against hope that something good happens soon... like a miracle, because Laudon is about to lose it.

So I call time out.  I kneel next to Laudon and ask him if he wants some gum.  "What?" he asks.  I said "I was just wondering if you want some gum... it's juicy fruit, my favorite... it will rot your teeth though... fair warning!"  He smiles, I pat him on the head and then say "oh, by the way, don't hold your breath".  He turns to me and says "What?".  "You're not breathing for some reason... you're going to true blue if you keep holding your breath... in fact, do this for me right now... take a deep, deep breath... now... release it".  He does.  I tell him to do it again.  I say to him "do that right before the batter swings, you'll be okay... oh, and be ready, this next guy is going to hit right to you and you're going to throw him out... because I just told you the best secret... don't hold your breath".

Next kid hits a grounder right at Laudon and he picks it, shifts his body correctly and throws to first and it's a perfect play.  He looks at me and I give him a thumbs up.  He and I talked after the game.  "Coach, how did you know? I mean..." he is struggling to say.  "You can't play baseball like it's a do or die thing, you have to relax, have fun, enjoy that you get to catch the ball and throw it to your teammates.  Just like we do at practice when we're having fun." I say, interrupting him to see if he would understand.  "Oh.." he says, but I'm not sure he really understood.  His Mom then tells me that Laudon has always reacted to stress in the same way... in everything.  She told me she's glad I didn't reinforce what she and her husband had done for most of his young life, simply allowed him to quit and move on to something or somewhere else because he couldn't handle the stress.  She asked me if I thought about calling time out to move him to RF or CF to let him regroup at any time.  I answered honestly.  "No".  And left it at that.

I'm not there to win at all cost or even to justify to any parent the final score... if indeed there is one (because I don't keep score).  Why should I move him?  I merely asked him to remember to have fun... oh, and breathe.  At the end of this little talk with Laudon and his Mom, I met my team over under the shady tree for our usual team talk.  I said to them "hey guys, remember this is about fun... so don't let anything bother you okay.... right Laudon?"  "Right coach!" was the response from Laudon, with no hestitation.  It helps to remind them because each one has taken turns to stress a little that somehow they've done something wrong because the kid wasn't thrown out at first or they struck out or a fly ball catch wasn't made.  I never tell them they did something wrong, I just want to know if they're still having fun.  So little Zachary says to Laudon right after the team cheer for the other guys and as they're walking away....

"Hey Laudon, just go home and put your favorite movie on the DVD player... that always relaxes me".  I stopped dead on my tracks and laughed.  My wife asked me why I was laughing and I told her what Zachary just said to Laudon.  Man, that is what the *game* is all about.

[sporadic]

Seeing yourself as a winner comes from your self perception.  Round and round.



Um, not.



The self-deluded do that too.



Perhaps you should define clearly your definition of "winner" because the way it reads makes you come off looking bad.

I don't care how I come off looking.  I am telling you people first hand how great athletes perceive themselves.  Take my opinions and my view of self how you want, but I am one of the few around here that can discuss this subject without speaking completely out of my ass.

[Ty in Tampa]

I don't care how I come off looking.  I am telling you people first hand how great athletes perceive themselves.  Take my opinions and my view of self how you want, but I am one of the few around here that can discuss this subject without speaking completely out of my ass.

Good the fuck for you. You must be proud of yourself.

[JimR]

Why does the mentality of 99% of professional athletes (or at least 99% of the ones that I personally know) and how I used it to be the best I could be draw that kind of response from you, Jim?  If I had been one of your players (should I had the same talent in baseball I had in golf) you would have loved my attitude and you villify it here.

i'm sorry, but i would not have loved the "i am great" attitude in you or in anyone else. i had several who made it to AAA and one to MLB, and they were the antithesis of your expressed attitude. thank goodness.

i do not really care who you know. i cannot stand the attitude you express as yours.

[Curly]

My son loves playing baseball, likes it when the team wins, and is ready for the next game when they lose.  He has the strongest arm, biggest bat, and is the fastest on the team, and has a great BB IQ for a 7.5 year old, yet before the games, he's working with the other kids on their swing, showing them how to crow hop, and other techniques that I've taught him over the past couple of years.  Is he headed for the dumpster becuase he plays hard and likes to win more than losing?  I doubt it, and I don't think that's what Jim means, and I don't think sporadic is quite the "evil little league parent" that yall are making him out to be either.  But then again, I'm not a mind reader.

[sporadic]

you may be too late. you are comparing adult professionals to LL players and saying it is ok for kids to act like those adults.

better get a clue.

I am not saying that at all.  The discussion itself took another direction.  My whole point on the initial topic was it's not always a bad thing to be competitive and expecting effort as a parent or coach is not a bad thing.

[Noe]

Right, but in golf, there isn't someone standing in front of the hole ready to catch your perfectly hit 9 Iron shot.

Your best, skill-wise, is the end all/be all of what happens for you.

In baseball, no matter how perfectly you swing, someone can make a great play and nullify it.

Bingo!

[Mr. Happy]

actually, you said it is ok : "There is nothing wrong with being hyper competitive so long as you are not a poor loser, or poor winner, for that matter."

what is "hyper competitive?"

better chill before he starts playing

Coaching youth baseball is a mixed bag in which a coach has to be all things to all people. When I'm coaching players under age 13, the last question I ask is "did you have fun?" I try to teach some of them some baseball without them realizing it. I try to teach some kids how to win and some kids (and some of their parents) how to lose. But having fun and being part of a team is what its all about at that level. I try to teach them how to have fun too, because, call me strange, but I can find few things more fun and satisfying than coaching youth baseball.

[JimR]

My son loves playing baseball, likes it when the team wins, and is ready for the next game when they lose.  He has the strongest arm, biggest bat, and is the fastest on the team, and has a great BB IQ for a 7.5 year old, yet before the games, he's working with the other kids on their swing, showing them how to crow hop, and other techniques that I've taught him over the past couple of years.  Is he headed for the dumpster becuase he plays hard and likes to win more than losing?  I doubt it, and I don't think that's what Jim means, and I don't think sporadic is quite the "evil little league parent" that yall are making him out to be either.  But then again, I'm not a mind reader.

at 7.5, why does he care who wins? he ought to hightail it for his free soda and go home. the games he is playing now matter not at all.

[Bench]

I don't care how I come off looking.  I am telling you people first hand how great athletes perceive themselves.  Take my opinions and my view of self how you want, but I am one of the few around here that can discuss this subject without speaking completely out of my ass.

And you were a "great athlete" when you played little league? Or at least you always made sure to see yourself that way.

[Noe]

In golf you can hit a perfect nine iron and the wind comes up...ball ballons and goes in the water or a bunker.  A putt can hit a spike mark and go astray.  There are many unknown variables in golf.

I guess the wind is an opponent.  Does it show up for every match, game or exhibit like the other team does in baseball?

[JimR]

I don't care how I come off looking.  I am telling you people first hand how great athletes perceive themselves.  Take my opinions and my view of self how you want, but I am one of the few around here that can discuss this subject without speaking completely out of my ass.

your arrogance is great, but that's about it.

you are no longer worth the time. good luck, "i'm a winner."

[sporadic]

i'm sorry, but i would not have loved the "i am great" attitude in you or in anyone else. i had several who made it to AAA and one to MLB, and they were the antithesis of your expressed attitude. thank goodness.

i do not really care who you know. i cannot stand the attitude you express as yours.

I never said I was great, I said I perceived myself as a winner - big difference.  I still do not know why this is so wrong.  You have gone out of your way to argue a point I have never made for reasons I cannot understand.

[sporadic]

And you were a "great athlete" when you played little league? Or at least you always made sure to see yourself that way.

What's with the quotation marks, I never said that.  I said I was above average as a player.

[JimR]

I never said I was great, I said I perceived myself as a winner - big difference.  I still do not know why this is so wrong.  You have gone out of your way to argue a point I have never made for reasons I cannot understand.

because your arrogance is insufferable. lots of folks besides me are telling you that. you said you thought of yourself as great. do i have to go back and find it? insufferable arrogance.

if you were a pro for three years and no longer are, you look like a failure to me.

[sporadic]

I guess the wind is an opponent.  Does it show up for every match, game or exhibit like the other team does in baseball?

No, but usually 149 other people show up.

[MRaup]

No, but usually 149 other people show up.

Do those 149 people have any effect what-so-ever on your shot?

[JimR]

Do those 149 people have any effect what-so-ever on your shot?

nice.

that why he is "great" and a "winner" when he fails. some folks might call that denial.

[sporadic]

because your arrogance is insufferable. lots of folks besides me are telling you that. you said you thought of youirself as great. do i have to go back and find it? insufferable arrogance.

if you were a pro for three years and no longer are, you look like a failure to me.

No Jim, arrogance would be if I went around telling people I was better than them, not thinking it in order to give myself a better competitive advantage.  I never did that.  Because I think a certain way it makes me arrogant?  That is just plain dumb.  You would not know I was arrogant when I competed unless you were a mind reader.

[Jacksonian]

I don't care how I come off looking.  I am telling you people first hand how great athletes perceive themselves.  Take my opinions and my view of self how you want, but I am one of the few around here that can discuss this subject without speaking completely out of my ass.

Well, then, great athletes are certainly people I wouldn't want to know.  Countless people that we call great today were in no position during their lives to think of themselves as great.  Greatness in athletics or anywhere else isn't generated or born out of thinking of yourself as great.  We generally call that being an asshole.  There's much to be said about humility and acknowleding that much of the success in our lives is because of someone else's labor.

[sporadic]

nice.

that why he is "great" and a "winner" when he fails. some folks might call that denial.

I never said I was Great...stop with the friggin quotations.  As a coach would you rather your player sulks in his locker and proclaims he is the worst hitter ever if he went 0-5 or would you wnat him to have a positive attitude the next plate appearance?

[Curly]

at 7.5, why does he care who wins? he ought to hightail it for his free soda and go home. the games he is playing now matter not at all.

That's just it, there are kids that are on the field and believe no matter how they play or detract from the game, they are rewarded with a free soda, despite they were a destraction on and off the field.  There are kids that have very good skills and a piss poor attitude that I have benched the remainder of the game, so I'm not just talking about the skilled and non skilled kids.  So how about that kid that is selected on the team with a bunch of kids that are "just there to have fun".  The kid that is on the team that has skills doesn't have fun becuase the game doesn't get played the way it should because the other kids don't care how they play, they are just having fun.  Said kid loses interest and stops playing ball becuase that kind of fun sucks. Contrary to what some believe, the kids do like the bigger trophy.  Happy with the "participant" medal, but if you put one next to the other on a table and ask the kid to pick the one they like most, what are the chances that they go for the big trophy over the medal?

[WulawHorn]

too bad for you. i'm sorry.

I can play golf now without the number I shoot determining how I feel about myself. I had a hard time doing that in while I was competing. I'm also not as good now, and hopefully a bit more mature. The downside is I don't focus as well as I used to, and don't always get as good a results. I used to be a scratch player- now I have a hard time breaking 40 on the front, and by the time I get to the back nine I'm not focused at all. It's more fun, now, I guess, but I'm not competing anymore.

I don't think I always had the healthiest attitude toward winning. Whenever I've brought this up its to counter people who say that kids don't think like this- I did. I've seen others that do. And it came independant of parents in my situation.

I still though, to this day, don't see what the benefit is to having a 9 year old chasing gophers or picking dandelions in the outfield. If you want to chase gofers than do that and don't play baseball. Just my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong. I didn't regret being that way as a kid and still had fun, kinda/sorta

[Noe]

Coaching youth baseball is a mixed bag in which a coach has to be all things to all people. When I'm coaching players under age 13, the last question I ask is "did you have fun?" I try to teach some of them some baseball without them realizing it. I try to teach some kids how to win and some kids (and some of their parents) how to lose. But having fun and being part of a team is what its all about at that level. I try to teach them how to have fun too, because, call me strange, but I can find few things more fun and satisfying than coaching youth baseball.

Eggszactly the point and what Houston initially posted.  The kids were stressing about the score... meaning their attitudes were about winning and they were already bummed that they were going to lose.  Houston did a magnificent job of redirection, which is what a coach should do at this level of play.  Redirect them to what is really important.

Grab a bat and have fun swinging it.   Run hard and have fun doing it.  Forget the score, just go up there and have fun.  In the end, even if you don't win because some darn scoreboard donated by HEB says you had less runs, remember how cool it felt to swing that bat or to run to first or to throw that ball.  It is the essence of what playing the game is about, at this level for sure and somewhat at the higher levels as well.

Sometimes, I think parents tend to react to the game played by their own children like they do as fans for professionals, and that is a very misguided thing.

[JimR]

That's just it, there are kids that are on the field and believe no matter how they play or detract from the game, they are rewarded with a free soda, despite they were a destraction on and off the field.  There are kids that have very good skills and a piss poor attitude that I have benched the remainder of the game, so I'm not just talking about the skilled and non skilled kids.  So how about that kid that is selected on the team with a bunch of kids that are "just there to have fun".  The kid that is on the team that has skills doesn't have fun becuase the game doesn't get played the way it should because the other kids don't care how they play, they are just having fun.  Said kid loses interest and stops playing ball becuase that kind of fun sucks. Contrary to what some believe, the kids do like the bigger trophy.  Happy with the "participant" medal, but if you put one next to the other on a table and ask the kid to pick the one they like most, what are the chances that they go for the big trophy over the medal?

not even 8 years old, Curly. come on. you are describing your attitude, not 7 year old kids'.

[Noe]

No, but usually 149 other people show up.

Hah, so what, put a windmill at the 9th hole or a trap door on the 14th hole or a converyor belt green at 18th and then we will talk about someone playing defense against you... all the time!

[sporadic]

Well, then, great athletes are certainly people I wouldn't want to know.  Countless people that we call great today were in no position during their lives to think of themselves as great.  Greatness in athletics or anywhere else isn't generated or born out of thinking of yourself as great.  We generally call that being an asshole.  There's much to be said about humility and acknowleding that much of the success in our lives is because of someone else's labor.

The fact of the matter is you are right, most great athletes carry an ego that you would have to have a forklift to carry.  Some of them good people, some are not - just like everday life.  How I thought on teh course in no way exemplifies me as a person.  You all are using the way I THOUGHT during play and how I PERCEIVED myself as a person after playing to how I treat people.  You call me an asshole without ever having known me.  I have tried to have a civilized discussion that some want to turn into a bashing of me as a person.  I do not understand why some of you have this need.  Jim, you have gone out of your way to belittle me as a person...with little to no reason for doing so.  You misquote me to make your points and your responses are mainly smart alecky one liners.  Your commentary does not say much about your attitude either.  Mine was taken out of context...yours is intentional.  I hope you were not this condecending and irrational with your players.

[Noe]

Well, then, great athletes are certainly people I wouldn't want to know.  Countless people that we call great today were in no position during their lives to think of themselves as great.  Greatness in athletics or anywhere else isn't generated or born out of thinking of yourself as great.  We generally call that being an asshole.  There's much to be said about humility and acknowleding that much of the success in our lives is because of someone else's labor.

The professional ballplayers I've known in my life have been very quiet and humble people.  Most of the time, they'd talk about loving the game and how humbled they'd be by the actual game itself.

[JackAstro]

Hah, so what, put a windmill at the 9th hole or a trap door on the 14th hole or a converyor belt green at 18th and then we will talk about someone playing defense against you... all the time!

No shit, like the course in Caddyshack II. See, we can learn things from great movies like that.

[sporadic]

Hah, so what, put a windmill at the 9th hole or a trap door on the 14th hole or a converyor belt green at 18th and then we will talk about someone playing defense against you... all the time!

I failed to mention I was a professional putt-putt golfer!

[MRaup]

The fact of the matter is you are right, most great athletes carry an ego that you would have to have a forklift to carry.  Some of them good people, some are not - just like everday life.  How I thought on teh course in no way exemplifies me as a person.  You all are using the way I THOUGHT during play and how I PERCEIVED myself as a person after playing to how I treat people.  You call me an asshole without ever having known me.  I have tried to have a civilized discussion that some want to turn into a bashing of me as a person.  I do not understand why some of you have this need.  Jim, you have gone out of your way to belittle me as a person...with little to no reason for doing so.  You misquote me to make your points and your responses are mainly smart alecky one liners.  Your commentary does not say much about your attitude either.  Mine was taken out of context...yours is intentional.  I hope you were not this condecending and irrational with your players.

Trust me... He wasn't.

[Curly]

not even 8 years old, Curly. come on. you are describing your attitude, not 7 year old kids'.

 I'll catch up later, have BP to go pitch to my kidos, end of season tourney starts tomorrow.

[sporadic]

The professional ballplayers I've known in my life have been very quiet and humble people.  Most of the time, they'd talk about loving the game and how humbled they'd be by the actual game itself.

BB can definately humble you, as can golf...because of what it takes to get to the highest level.  Most are very down to earth...I am talking about what happens inside the ropes in a players head...not how they treat others away from the game.  If you have no belief in yourself you will fail.

[sporadic]

Trust me... He wasn't.

Great, i like to think the best in people.

[JimR]

The fact of the matter is you are right, most great athletes carry an ego that you would have to have a forklift to carry.  Some of them good people, some are not - just like everday life.  How I thought on teh course in no way exemplifies me as a person.  You all are using the way I THOUGHT during play and how I PERCEIVED myself as a person after playing to how I treat people.  You call me an asshole without ever having known me.  I have tried to have a civilized discussion that some want to turn into a bashing of me as a person.  I do not understand why some of you have this need.  Jim, you have gone out of your way to belittle me as a person...with little to no reason for doing so.  You misquote me to make your points and your responses are mainly smart alecky one liners.  Your commentary does not say much about your attitude either.  Mine was taken out of context...yours is intentional.  I hope you were not this condecending and irrational with your players.

bullshit out of context.

never called you anything but insufferably arrogant. i also said you have issues.

my players never acted like your expressed attitude. you would have changed your tune or i would have told you to leave.

[sporadic]

 I'll catch up later, have BP to go pitch to my kidos, end of season tourney starts tomorrow.

Be sure and plunk em if they crowd you...that'll toughen em up

[Bench]

The fact of the matter is you are right, most great athletes carry an ego that you would have to have a forklift to carry.  Some of them good people, some are not - just like everday life.  How I thought on teh course in no way exemplifies me as a person.  You all are using the way I THOUGHT during play and how I PERCEIVED myself as a person after playing to how I treat people.  You call me an asshole without ever having known me.  I have tried to have a civilized discussion that some want to turn into a bashing of me as a person.  I do not understand why some of you have this need.  Jim, you have gone out of your way to belittle me as a person...with little to no reason for doing so.  You misquote me to make your points and your responses are mainly smart alecky one liners.  Your commentary does not say much about your attitude either.  Mine was taken out of context...yours is intentional.  I hope you were not this condecending and irrational with your players.

Either you are being intentionally obtuse, or you completely fail to realize that you are trying to apply the mentality of collegiate and professional athletes to 7 year olds. That is fucked up.

[Jacksonian]

The fact of the matter is you are right, most great athletes carry an ego that you would have to have a forklift to carry.  Some of them good people, some are not - just like everday life.  How I thought on teh course in no way exemplifies me as a person.  You all are using the way I THOUGHT during play and how I PERCEIVED myself as a person after playing to how I treat people.  You call me an asshole without ever having known me.  I have tried to have a civilized discussion that some want to turn into a bashing of me as a person.  I do not understand why some of you have this need.  Jim, you have gone out of your way to belittle me as a person...with little to no reason for doing so.  You misquote me to make your points and your responses are mainly smart alecky one liners.  Your commentary does not say much about your attitude either.  Mine was taken out of context...yours is intentional.  I hope you were not this condecending and irrational with your players.

I didn't call you an asshole.  You said you weren't great. Great people who have to think of themselves as great are assholes.  I used the phrase self-deluded.  If you aren't great but have to think of yourself as great in order to succeed or seem to succeed you delude yourself.  But, you aren't telling the truth here.  Did you not also say you think of yourself as great in your current profession?

[WulawHorn]

I have always maintained that baseball players and golfers are the most humble of professional athletes b/c they are both games with so much failure built into them.  Most all great players though have an incredible belief in themselves (ego perhaps?) that they can execute at the highest level possible or they could not be great.

I was that 7 year old that Curly described- I didn't want to play with a kid chasing gofers. If fun is chasing gofers then do that in the back yard on saturday instead of playing baseball.

Now, if you are just a spaz, or mess up a grounder, or strike out, or someone else makes a play on a liner you hit then that is the breaks, and you try to get them next time. I don't see why it's ok to not try or care about what you are doing.  

[Noe]

I never said I was Great...stop with the friggin quotations.  As a coach would you rather your player sulks in his locker and proclaims he is the worst hitter ever if he went 0-5 or would you wnat him to have a positive attitude the next plate appearance?

See, everything I read from you smacks of the "power within" sort of talk and it's not going to work in little league and I'm not sure how well it would work in the higher ranks as well.  It wouldn't work for me because the minute I start to tell my kids to visualize themselves being positive about getting a hit, I'll bust out laughing.  Mostly because it will remind me of the scene in The Natural where Roy Hobbs bolts out of his chair and tells his manager he isn't going to sit there and listen to that mumbo-jumbo crap.

Positive attitude is great, but baseball is a game about being relaxed and knowing full well you're not going to succeed at a great amount of time.  It will screw with your head if you think "winning", being "positive" is what will help you succeed at baseball.  What helps you succeed is just plain "knowing" that you're going to fail and then dealing with it by not stressing about it.

You cannot play this game if you're not relaxed.  People who put undo pressure on kids to perform at this level should be shot.  It's about being relaxed and having fun.

[Noe]

I failed to mention I was a professional putt-putt golfer!

Now we're talking!

[Jacksonian]

BB can definately humble you, as can golf...because of what it takes to get to the highest level.  Most are very down to earth...I am talking about what happens inside the ropes in a players head...not how they treat others away from the game.  If you have no belief in yourself you will fail.

Having faith in your ability to succeed (confidence) is NOT the same as believing in your own greatness (arrogance/delusion).

[JackAstro]

You know, this conversation has careened around all over the place, but it seems to have started somewhere in the neighborhood of of being hyper-competitive and giving 100% effort. Did I miss the part where these things became synonymous? When I was a kid, my stepdad taught me not to do things half-assed. This was valuable, and it served me well, but it had nothing to do with being hyper-competetive. I'm pretty much the opposite of hyper-competitive.

I couldn't possibly have given less of a shit about who won the games when I was a kid. I tried to play well because I enjoyed it, and felt like I should. I didn't much care about the score. The first time I remember being really affected by a loss was when I was 8, and my LL team lost a playoff game - the reason I cared was because it meant that we didn't get to play a game again that week.

Somehow, in spite of playing games only for fun and trying to give a good effort only for the sake of giving a good effort, I've managed to be successful in life in the most basic and unspectacular of terms. I feel fine about that. Am I missing something?

[sporadic]

bullshit out of context.

never called you anything but insufferably arrogant. i also said you have issues.

my players never acted like your expressed attitude. you would have changed your tune or i would have told you to leave.

Exactly...I am talking about how I thought during play, not how I treated others.  How does that give you the grounds to call me insufferably arrogant?  And I still contend had I been one of your players you would have loved me (of course I would have had to have more talent or I would have had to beg you just to be the bat-boy).  I always played hard, In team sports I always put team ahead of self, and I always respected the game I played.  There is nothing wrong with my "expressed attitiude"...you would not like a yes-sir, no-sir kid who would run through a wall if you asked him to, no questions asked?  Someone that shows up early and stays late and always gives maximum effort, win or lose?  That is how I played everything.  I had to to earn playing time, I was not the best athlete and had to make up for it by giving everything I had at all times.

[Noe]

BB can definately humble you, as can golf...because of what it takes to get to the highest level.  Most are very down to earth...I am talking about what happens inside the ropes in a players head...not how they treat others away from the game.  If you have no belief in yourself you will fail.

This thing called "Belief in yourself" has been the most overused tripe in sports for some years now.  It's actually code speak for "I don't suck at this" and that is the extent of it.  But to play the game of baseball without taking some sort of piss poor attitude about it is to relax and enjoy.  "wining" is not the driver of it, it is the outcome of it.

[Mr. Happy]

The professional ballplayers I've known in my life have been very quiet and humble people.  Most of the time, they'd talk about loving the game and how humbled they'd be by the actual game itself.

That's been my experience too. You take a guy like Russ Springer, who was at LSU when I was there. He's from a little town, where he still lives. He loves the game and will play as long as someone wants him. He likes the money, but its clearly not about the money for him. Its about the love of the game.

[sporadic]

I didn't call you an asshole.  You said you weren't great. Great people who have to think of themselves as great are assholes.  I used the phrase self-deluded.  If you aren't great but have to think of yourself as great in order to succeed or seem to succeed you delude yourself.  But, you aren't telling the truth here.  Did you not also say you think of yourself as great in your current profession?

No, I did not, but I ampretty damn good at it.  I thought of myself as great when I was trying to hit a 3 iron from 230 over water.  Self doubt is a killer.  You need to believe in yourself 100% in order to be your best.  I did not always succeed, nobody always succeeds.  I tried to put myself in the best position to succeed, mentally.  Ask any pro golfer...they all do that.

[WulawHorn]

You know, this conversation has careened around all over the place, but it seems to have started somewhere in the neighborhood of of being hyper-competitive and giving 100% effort. Did I miss the part where these things became synonymous? When I was a kid, my stepdad taught me not to do things half-assed. This was valuable, and it served me well, but it had nothing to do with being hyper-competetive. I'm pretty much the opposite of hyper-competitive.

I couldn't possibly have given less of a shit about who won the games when I was a kid. I tried to play well because I enjoyed it, and felt like I should. I didn't much care about the score. The first time I remember being really affected by a loss was when I was 8, and my LL team lost a playoff game - the reason I cared was because it meant that we didn't get to play a game again that week.

Somehow, in spite of playing games only for fun and trying to give a good effort only for the sake of giving a good effort, I've managed to be successful in life in the most basic and unspectacular of terms. I feel fine about that. Am I missing something?

I personally think that this is probably what I would hope for my kid when I have one.  I was too hypercompetitive. The downside was that losing really messed with my head. The upside was I went at whatever I was doing full tilt- and I think that has benefited me more or less in my life.

I don't agree with the idea that not giving it your best effort is particularly ok at any age (though best effort is of course defined by age to a certain extent- the younger you are the less ability to maintain focus etc.) But you shouldn't ever base your self worth on your batting average, era, handicap or goal scoring.

[sporadic]

Having faith in your ability to succeed (confidence) is NOT the same as believing in your own greatness (arrogance/delusion).

Again, find where I said I was great.  Hence the arrogance assumption is just that.

[JimR]

You know, this conversation has careened around all over the place, but it seems to have started somewhere in the neighborhood of of being hyper-competitive and giving 100% effort. Did I miss the part where these things became synonymous? When I was a kid, my stepdad taught me not to do things half-assed. This was valuable, and it served me well, but it had nothing to do with being hyper-competetive. I'm pretty much the opposite of hyper-competitive.

I couldn't possibly have given less of a shit about who won the games when I was a kid. I tried to play well because I enjoyed it, and felt like I should. I didn't much care about the score. The first time I remember being really affected by a loss was when I was 8, and my LL team lost a playoff game - the reason I cared was because it meant that we didn't get to play a game again that week.

Somehow, in spite of playing games only for fun and trying to give a good effort only for the sake of giving a good effort, I've managed to be successful in life in the most basic and unspectacular of terms. I feel fine about that. Am I missing something?

you've got it, Jack. you need to do seminars for parents who put 6-8 year olds on travel teams.

[WulawHorn]

Jack-

I know what you mean- the last game of the season, win or lose, was always a killer. It sucked to not be able to play anymore.

[JimR]

Again, find where I said I was great.  Hence the arrogance assumption is just that.

you have expressed your arrogance again and again. i do not like anything about the way you say you approached games.

[Ty in Tampa]

No, I did not, but I ampretty damn good at it.  I thought of myself as great when I was trying to hit a 3 iron from 230 over water.  Self doubt is a killer.  You need to believe in yourself 100% in order to be your best.  I did not always succeed, nobody always succeeds.  I tried to put myself in the best position to succeed, mentally.  Ask any pro golfer...they all do that.

Here is where you're arrogant. You couldn't possibly know this. This approach is what works for you.

[sporadic]

You know, this conversation has careened around all over the place, but it seems to have started somewhere in the neighborhood of of being hyper-competitive and giving 100% effort. Did I miss the part where these things became synonymous? When I was a kid, my stepdad taught me not to do things half-assed. This was valuable, and it served me well, but it had nothing to do with being hyper-competetive. I'm pretty much the opposite of hyper-competitive.

I couldn't possibly have given less of a shit about who won the games when I was a kid. I tried to play well because I enjoyed it, and felt like I should. I didn't much care about the score. The first time I remember being really affected by a loss was when I was 8, and my LL team lost a playoff game - the reason I cared was because it meant that we didn't get to play a game again that week.

Somehow, in spite of playing games only for fun and trying to give a good effort only for the sake of giving a good effort, I've managed to be successful in life in the most basic and unspectacular of terms. I feel fine about that. Am I missing something?

Not at all.  Kids need to have fun first and foremost.  I just contend that unless it makes them have a poor attitude being competitive is not a bad thing.  It can be a terriffic trait to have.

[JimR]

No, I did not, but I ampretty damn good at it.  I thought of myself as great when I was trying to hit a 3 iron from 230 over water.  Self doubt is a killer.  You need to believe in yourself 100% in order to be your best.  I did not always succeed, nobody always succeeds.  I tried to put myself in the best position to succeed, mentally.  Ask any pro golfer...they all do that.

so fucking what? we were talking about kids' sports.

all i know is you are sitting somewhere typing on a message board with the rest of us non-great losers. you must have been fooling yourself, and we had a lot more fun.

[WulawHorn]

you've got it, Jack. you need to do seminars for parents who put 6-8 year olds on travel teams.

I'm probably misreading you Jim- but the quote of Jack saying he's got it in perspective (which i also said I agreed with his take and hope my son/daughter behaves similarly) seems to imply that it isn't ok to chase gofers in the outfield, or wear your glove on your head.  I was reading you earlier as saying that is ok and normal behavior for kids.  Maybe I misinterpreted it.

[Noe]

You know, this conversation has careened around all over the place, but it seems to have started somewhere in the neighborhood of of being hyper-competitive and giving 100% effort. Did I miss the part where these things became synonymous? When I was a kid, my stepdad taught me not to do things half-assed. This was valuable, and it served me well, but it had nothing to do with being hyper-competetive. I'm pretty much the opposite of hyper-competitive.

I couldn't possibly have given less of a shit about who won the games when I was a kid. I tried to play well because I enjoyed it, and felt like I should. I didn't much care about the score. The first time I remember being really affected by a loss was when I was 8, and my LL team lost a playoff game - the reason I cared was because it meant that we didn't get to play a game again that week.

Somehow, in spite of playing games only for fun and trying to give a good effort only for the sake of giving a good effort, I've managed to be successful in life in the most basic and unspectacular of terms. I feel fine about that. Am I missing something?

Yes, very true.  You say to a kid "run hard", not "you better damn well get to first base and don't let that kid beat to the bag!".  Those are two diametrically opposed attitudes.  It's fun to run hard, but you know what, in baseball, you're going to be out a great majority of the time.  What we've been saying here is that it is dangerous to make "winning" an attitude, because to obtain that standard called "winning" as the goal, you may find more people leaning towards the attitude of "you better damn well not let that kid beat you to first base".

If I had that attitude that "winning" was important, I wouldn't teach... I'd recruit and then drill those kids that they better damn well never lose a game as long as they were on my team.  And I'd hate myself for being that sort of coach too.

[JimR]

I'm probably misreading you Jim- but the quote of Jack saying he's got it in perspective (which i also said I agreed with his take and hope my son/daughter behaves similarly) seems to imply that it isn't ok to chase gofers in the outfield, or wear your glove on your head.  I was reading you earlier as saying that is ok and normal behavior for kids.  Maybe I misinterpreted it.

does not say that to me.

[sporadic]

you have expressed your arrogance again and again. i do not like anything about the way you say you approached games.

Again, you do not know me therefore cannot make that assumption logically.  Everything I have said is a thought, not an action against another.  A belief in self not expressed towards others is not arrogance, only if I directed my beliefs verbally to others..."I am the greatest" or "you can't beat me" is arrogance.  I never said anything of the like.  I actually said I had no way of being the best in my sport when I played...how the hell can I be arrogant talking like that?

[WulawHorn]

Ok- like I said I'm probably misinterpreting.

What is an appropriate level of focus/effort from an 8 year old?

[sporadic]

Here is where you're arrogant. You couldn't possibly know this. This approach is what works for you.

because I claim to be good at my job?  I was telling you the mental proces behind hitting that 3 iron, not pumping my fist after I pulled it off.

[Jacksonian]

I'm probably misreading you Jim- but the quote of Jack saying he's got it in perspective (which i also said I agreed with his take and hope my son/daughter behaves similarly) seems to imply that it isn't ok to chase gofers in the outfield, or wear your glove on your head.  I was reading you earlier as saying that is ok and normal behavior for kids.  Maybe I misinterpreted it.

At my son's 5 year olds soccer game last weekend, a boy on the other team sitting on the bench watching the game suddenly said "Look, a butterfly."  He took one running step then stopped realizing the butterfly was on the field of play.  THAT is greatness!

[JimR]

Ok- like I said I'm probably misinterpreting.

What is an appropriate level of focus/effort from an 8 year old?

focus? an 8 year old? oh, please.

we really have nothing to discuss, and i have somewhere to be. if you live in Austin, let's have a beer. i can go on for hours about how parents have killed youth sports.

[Ty in Tampa]

because I claim to be good at my job?  I was telling you the mental proces behind hitting that 3 iron, not pumping my fist after I pulled it off.

No, by claiming it's how every successful athlete does it.

[Noe]

What is an appropriate level of focus/effort from an 8 year old?

Don't quit.
Don't stress.
Have fun.

There is nothing else that comes into play for an 8 year old.  Anything else is parent or adult induced attitudes.  Period.

[JackAstro]

Not at all.  Kids need to have fun first and foremost.  I just contend that unless it makes them have a poor attitude being competitive is not a bad thing.  It can be a terriffic trait to have.

I don't know. Like most everybody, I've played a lot of different sports with a lot of different people, and at every age level along the way, the tremendously competitive players are pretty damn obnoxious. They may be gracious in the handshake line, but they can be goddamn grating during the actual game. Not fun at all.

I get that you're qualifying it by saying it's only OK if they have a good attitude, I just haven't met too many hyper-competitive people who have good attitudes. It's kind of how you know that they're hyper-competitive. They tend to care more about winning than whether anyone is having fun. At a competitive level, that's fine (it's right there in the name, after all). At a recreational level, it's not (again, it's in the name).

[WulawHorn]

focus? an 8 year old? oh, please.

we really have nothing to discuss, and i have somewhere to be. if you live in Austin, let's have a beer. i can go on for hours about how parents have killed youth sports.

I'd like to do that. I'll try to look you up the next time in austin- I think it would be fun to hear stories about the greats like Babe Ruth and Walter Johnson 

I'm sure there are a lot of whack parents. I just think that it's not fair to put it all on them. Some kids are just really competitive. It's the parent's job to try to reign that in and teach them how to be ok at life.

Focus maybe isn't the right word.  I don't know what is. It just seems that if you aren't paying attention to the game- why are you playing it? It always detracted from my idea of fun if a teammate wasn't trying. I used to pick geeks and "losers" for my team though, when choosing up sides in recess. I didn't care if they made a shot or got to a grounder, but I did care if they weren't trying/paying attention.  I don't think this is an unfair distinction to expect from a kid- I don't have any yet- so maybe I'm wrong. 

My dad would have jumped my ass if I wasn't watching what was going on in a game while I was in the field. I could make 4 errors and strike out 3 times and it wouldn't matter. This strikes me as a decent way to approach the issue.

I know it isn't an easy issue though, and way too many parents are on the wrong side, living vicariously through their kids. That is bullshit imo.

[sporadic]

No, by claiming it's how every successful athlete does it.

You could be right...but I can guarantee you that no professional golfer stands over that shot thinking "no way I get this over the water"...or even "I hope this does not go in the water" for that matter.

[Bench]

Ok- like I said I'm probably misinterpreting.

What is an appropriate level of focus/effort from an 8 year old?

Just have fun. There are no other expectations.

[MRaup]

Don't quit.
Don't stress.
Have fun.

A friend of our family paid me a ridiculous amount of money not that long ago to "teach my son how to play baseball". He was a basketball player by "trade", good athlete, 10 or so years old. The kid really wasn't overly interested in baseball, just wanted to play because his friends all played and it looked fun.

I don't have a lot of personal coaching experience. I coached a summer football league 7 on 7 team for my high school after I graduated, but all that taught me how to do was force myself to wake up at 9 am on a saturday and manage a bunch of guys slightly younger than me with a hang over. And I helped coach McCallum's summer baseball teams a bit, but that was mostly standing at First Base during the games and yelling "BACK!" and doing my best Cheo impression.

But, I went out and asked my student, Gordon, what he wanted to learn first.

"I want to hit!"

Allright...
So we went to the batting cages at the YMCA where he was going to be playing when the season started. And we went in the cage.
The first day we did soft toss for 45 minutes, with my giving him young kid hitting tips as we went along.

Then, he decided he was ready to hit live pitching.

So I threw him some bp.
And he swung and missed.
And missed.
And missed.
And CONTACT! Oh man, he was so proud of fouling that pitch off.
So I asked him what he did right when he swung.
"I kept my head in that time, right?"
Damn straight.
So I pitched and pitched and pitched.
And he made more and more contact.
Then his dad showed up and said it was time to go home.

So the next week we went to the cage and did a few minutes of soft toss, then I threw him BP.
And he was doing almost all of the 3 or 4 things I had him working on.

Anyway, I worked with him 4 or 5 times before the season started. He got better every time we worked out.

But the thing I learned while I was coaching him was, doing the same thing for an hour with a 10ish year old is a waste of time. He got bored, even with just hitting, when we did it for that long.

So I started breaking stuff up. We'd hit for 10 minutes. Then we'd go talk about hitting but not hit for a few minutes. Then we'd go throw. Then I'd roll him grounders, or throw him fly balls, or whatever he wanted to work on.

The last day we did our "lesson", after about 30 minutes of doing our stuff, I asked him waht he wanted to do. He said, "I want to throw batting practice to you!"
I said "okay".

So in I stepped, and behind the L screen he went. I was rusty as hell, since I hadn't hit anything but a softball in at least 5 years, and after my first few swings he was laughing and said, "your pulling your head out!"

And he was right.

After a few more I started getting the groove back. I was peppering line drives all over the cage. I felt pretty good for not having taken a baseball swing in years.

After he finished throwing bp to me, we went out and started throwing. After we'd thrown for a few minutes, Gordon held on to the ball and said, "This is really fun, I like practicing with you."

I haven't gotten to work with him much since, because he has added baseball to his already hectic schedule of basketball practice and games, but I've seen him play a few times.

After each game I've seen, or even between at bats from the dugout, he asks me "Did you see how well I kept my head in?!" or tells me "My back foot was sliding everywhere, thats why I hit a popup". Never mentions the score, never mentions winning or losing.

Kid just enjoys the game. And I enjoyed helping him learn how to play.

In my head, thats what little league is about.

[Noe]

They may be gracious in the handshake line, but they can be goddamn grating during the actual game. Not fun at all.

We had a team we played against that had twin brothers playing shortstop and second base.  These kids had their own wristbands, batting gloves, professional looking baseball pants (greys with piping), great looking Cardinal socks and the attitude to match.  Dad was insufferable, and he had a New York accent to boot.  He yelled at me once during the game when I stopped pitching and called time out to talk to my hitter.  As I walked to my hitter to talk to him, he walked towards me onto the field (he is a Dad, not a coach, he had no business on the field of play and should've been tossed out of the park for it).  He screams "Whas da problem?  Come on!!!"  I simply pointed to the coach for his twin brothers team and kept walking towards my hitter.  You see, a little left fielder had taken a ball to his knee the previous play and I noticed it.  I looked over at his coach and gave him a nod.  He looked at me and then his player and nodded back at me.  The kid was crying and no one had noticed he was hurt.

I called time out to give *their* coach a chance to run out there and calm him down and see if he was alright.  He was, he just needed reassurance that the kneecap wasn't going to fall off.  I talked to my hitter about school and his plans for summer.   But the Dad had no business coming at me like that, but I didn't say anything to him nor the umpire, who is a kid all of 18 years of age and intimidated by some of these obnoxious parents.  So I noticed that his twin boys were damn good ball players, a regular Mickey Mantle and Joe DiMaggio in the making for those two.  All mouth too, like their Dad.  And they screamed at every kid in thier team to "COME ONE, MAKE THE PLAY!!!"  "DO BETTER THAN THAT!" and stuff that really made them stand out as assholes in the making.  Pretty darn good playing assholes too, but assholes nonetheless.  And a couple of kids I hope never get put on my team too.

If they would not let me bump them off my squad I don't think I'd survive the season having the DiMaggio brothers in my infield.  In fact, as humble as Joe DiMaggio was, perhaps I am being unfair to label them as such.   Any way, it was fun to watch them have to shake the hands of my players because it was killing them and their Dad to have to do it too.  My kids love to say stuff to each other and the other team while they exchange high fives... "hey, how you doing?" or "I know you!" (even when they don't).

They made new friends too because of that attitude.  Except for the Cardinals twins that is.

[sporadic]

I don't know. Like most everybody, I've played a lot of different sports with a lot of different people, and at every age level along the way, the tremendously competitive players are pretty damn obnoxious. They may be gracious in the handshake line, but they can be goddamn grating during the actual game. Not fun at all.

I get that you're qualifying it by saying it's only OK if they have a good attitude, I just haven't met too many hyper-competitive people who have good attitudes. It's kind of how you know that they're hyper-competitive. They tend to care more about winning than whether anyone is having fun. At a competitive level, that's fine (it's right there in the name, after all). At a recreational level, it's not (again, it's in the name).

I understand that completely, and you are right.  I do not think that I ever strayed over the line to bad sportsmanship.  I played hard and always tried to have a good attitude.  I cannot say that was always the case, but I tried.  When you are talking about kids it is completely out of line if a childs behavior stands inthe way of anotther child having fun I (clear of dropping a fly ball so a bad kid can get on base), but as long as you have good etiqute and give your competitor the opportunity to succeed (in golf) you are not worried about them having fun.  There are many pros that do not like playing with other pros because oof the way they play.  Many hated playing with Nick Faldo in his prime bc he was such a grinder.  Those same people that did not like him on the course found out later he is a nice guy off the course.  How you treat others is very important in life, and should be taught to our kids (especially during competition)...it just may not occur at the highest level of sports.  I acted stupid in a couple of tournaments as a kid.  Dad took the clubs away from me for a week each time.  My dad said it made him the proudest when other parents commented on how I behaved, not about my game.  So I believe this crap about me being arrogant is more than a little off base.

[Mr. Happy]

Ok- like I said I'm probably misinterpreting.

What is an appropriate level of focus/effort from an 8 year old?

The proper answer is none or whatever the child, on his or her own, decided to give.

[Noe]

Kid just enjoys the game. And I enjoyed helping him learn how to play.

In my head, thats what little league is about.

I have so many similar stories with my current team.  Alex hates to soft toss with me, even though it's only a five minute exercise.  "Why do I have to do this (in whiny voice)?  This isn't how you pitch to us during the game (more whiny voice)!  I don't like this!".  All I say is "here comes the next one, be ready to swing...".  Then he hits soft squibblers because he really doesn't want to do it.

So I told him this "If you can prove to me that you can keep your head in and eyes on the ball all the time, you don't have to do soft toss.  That's what I'm trying to show you, your eyes always should be on the ball, nothing else matters."  So he tells me "okay, okay... I'll do it"  and then hits some more balls, this time with a little more eye on the ball, head in mechanics.  That Saturday, first at bat, bases loaded, Alex digs in.  Takes on practice swing and is ready.  I pitch it right over the heart of the plate.  He swings and it's a homerun over the fence.  Only two kids have hit over the fence homeruns this season in the entire league... Alex and Carlos, both kids on my team.

Do they want to talk about the score or winning?  No.  They love to talk about hitting the baseball and how it's become so much easier for them to do it well.  I love teaching.

[WulawHorn]

The proper answer is none or whatever the child, on his or her own, decided to give.

I guess I'm just in the total minority here then. I always was taught that if you were going to do something you should try your best/hardest at it, or don't do it at all.  Maybe that's too intense for a kid. I  was never taught not to do something b/c you suck at it (I sang in the church youth choir for a while and I can't carry a tune- but I sang my best/loudest), but if you try you need to give your best effort.

[Noe]

I guess I'm just in the total minority here then. I always was taught that if you were going to do something you should try your best/hardest at it, or don't do it at all.  Maybe that's too intense for a kid. I  was never taught not to do something b/c you suck at it (I sang in the church youth choir for a while and I can't carry a tune- but I sang my best/loudest), but if you try you need to give your best effort.

Did anyone ever define "best effort" to you?  I never have to define anything to my kids, but if I said "you have to give me your best effort", I'd get blank stares back at me.  Of course they all want to do their best, so me telling them that is saying that what they consider to be their best is actually very bad and not good enough. Yeah, that's a few years of adult theraphy waiting to happen right there.  No kid who is told that the object of the game is to have fun will ever half-ass it.  Go out and watch kids play anything on their own... like freeze tag or any other game they want to do *all on their own*, and watch the effort.

It's already there.  Would you walk up to them and say "Hey, come on now, I want to see better effort than that while you're playing and having fun!"  Hopefully if one of those kids has a stick, they'd hit you with it.  You cannot introduce you own adult bias into fun, it is unacceptable and not needed.  It is now you're own expectations that need to be met, not what the kids want.  They are no longer important if you think you have to regulate fun with "best effort" bullshit.  What is important is your own expectation being met.

And that is what ruins kids sports.

[sporadic]

The proper answer is none or whatever the child, on his or her own, decided to give.

That is true, and at 8, who cares?  It should be played purely for fun at that point.  But I don't think we should ostracize little Johnny for playing hard and wanting to win...as long as he dosen't run over the kid with his glove on his head so he can win the game.  PLEASE NOTE...THE REST OF THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH 8 YEAR OLDS PLAYING BASEBALL...When it comes time for more competitive sports (High School, maybe Jr. High as well) I want my child to do give his best at everything...that way he can never look back and say what if he had done this or that.  I personally gave it a shot.  I failed.  But I can live happily knowing that I tried my best.   I at least know that I couldn't cut it...it made me get on with my life.  I would not have my wife or son had I not gave up on competitve golf years ago.  I think that turned out to be a great trade off.  By the way...what y'all see on TV is just friggin amazing in person.  That commercial "these guys are good" should be "these guys are out of this friggin world".  I was pretty good, and could play with them in spurts (18 - 36 hole incriments), but the competitive reproduction of greatness is something to behold.

[JackAstro]

I'm probably misreading you Jim- but the quote of Jack saying he's got it in perspective (which i also said I agreed with his take and hope my son/daughter behaves similarly) seems to imply that it isn't ok to chase gofers in the outfield, or wear your glove on your head.  I was reading you earlier as saying that is ok and normal behavior for kids.  Maybe I misinterpreted it.

Before I get put on record as being anti-chasing-butterflies, let me note emphatically that I believe youth sports - at least at the age that we're talking about - are about having fun, first and foremost. It's also instructive, of course, so if my son is the one roaming around the outfield wearing his glove on his dome (and I absolutely believe that he will be), I'll be reminding him that it's actually supposed to go on his left hand. No, the other left hand. But he certainly won't be reprimanded for it, and I won't be giving him the impression that I care about his performance more than whether he had a good time playing baseball.

The lesson about not doing things half-assed is constant, and has much broader and more important applications than little league. That's cleaning his room, doing his homework, work ethic, etc. If that attitude spreads to playing games, great, but that's not really my concern.

[sporadic]

Did anyone ever define "best effort" to you?  I never have to define anything to my kids, but if I said "you have to give me your best effort", I'd get blank stares back at me.  Of course they all want to do their best, so me telling them that is saying that what they consider to be their best is actually very bad and not good enough. Yeah, that's a few years of adult theraphy waiting to happen right there.  No kid who is told that the object of the game is to have fun will ever half-ass it.  Go out and watch kids play anything on their own... like freeze tag or any other game they want to do *all on their own*, and watch the effort.

It's already there.  Would you walk up to them and say "Hey, come on now, I want to see better effort than that while you're playing and having fun!"  Hopefully if one of those kids has a stick, they'd hit you with it.  You cannot introduce you own adult bias into fun, it is unacceptable and not needed.  It is now you're own expectations that need to be met, not what the kids want.  They are no longer important if you think you have to regulate fun with "best effort" bullshit.  What is important is your own expectation being met.

And that is what ruins kids sports.

I think you are correct with most kids, but some are different than others.  The great thing is it does not matter when they are 8...just when they are 18.  But some have that competiveness at a young age.  I got it because my older brother ALWAYS kept score in everything we played.  I did not like losing, but he was 5 yrs older, so it happened all of the time.  By the time I played with the kids my age, I had learned that to keep it close with my bro I ultimately played harder than most of the others.  This put me at an advantage...where others had me in athleticism I had them in determination.  I still contend that is a good thing (as long as you are a good sport)

[sporadic]

The lesson about not doing things half-assed is constant, and has much broader and more important applications than little league. That's cleaning his room, doing his homework, work ethic, etc. If that attitude spreads to playing games, great, but that's not really my concern.

I think that spills over into sports more than you would imagine. 

[Noe]

The lesson about not doing things half-assed is constant, and has much broader and more important applications than little league. That's cleaning his room, doing his homework, work ethic, etc. If that attitude spreads to playing games, great, but that's not really my concern.

If the expectation of "don't half-ass it" when you've told them that it's about "fun" is introduced, be very careful how you introduce it.  In a kid's mind, what does "best effort" mean exactly when he thinks he/she is just having a ton of fun?  It's going to be hard to bring into play, but I'm sure someone has done it successfully somewhere in the mind of a kid.  I haven't and I won't introduce it.

They're already giving me maximum effort because they object is simple... have fun!  What kid in the entire world will half-ass fun?  No one.  But see, we've all seen good kids who are enjoying the game just quit because it is no longer about having fun, it's about meeting Dad or Moms or any other parent or even coach's expectation about maximum effort.  It is a dangerous attitude to bring into play for chidren (Pun intended).  Kids will walk away from baseball, a game they may have an amptitude for if they are taught how to deal with failure by just doing the right things to make it work for themselves.  But by all means, let them have fun... run around, throw a ball, swing a bat.  Enjoy.

The effort will be there if you set the expectation as "fun".  Not "winning" or "scores" or "best effort" or any of that other stuff.  Kids know when an adult has taken over and some will try to satisfy the adult and others will walk away and never come back to the game we all love.

[Mr. Happy]

If the expectation of "don't half-ass it" when you've told them that it's about "fun" is introduced, be very careful how you introduce it.  In a kid's mind, what does "best effort" mean exactly when he thinks he/she is just having a ton of fun?  It's going to be hard to bring into play, but I'm sure someone has done it successfully somewhere in the mind of a kid.  I haven't and I won't introduce it.

They're already giving me maximum effort because they object is simple... have fun!  What kid in the entire world will half-ass fun?  No one.  But see, we've all seen good kids who are enjoying the game just quit because it is no longer about having fun, it's about meeting Dad or Moms or any other parent or even coach's expectation about maximum effort.  It is a dangerous attitude to bring into play for chidren (Pun intended).  Kids will walk away from baseball, a game they may have an amptitude for if they are taught how to deal with failure by just doing the right things to make it work for themselves.  But by all means, let them have fun... run around, throw a ball, swing a bat.  Enjoy.

The effort will be there if you set the expectation as "fun".  Not "winning" or "scores" or "best effort" or any of that other stuff.  Kids know when an adult has taken over and some will try to satisfy the adult and others will walk away and never come back to the game we all love.

Noe nailed it. There's really nothing more to say.

[Noe]

I think you are correct with most kids, but some are different than others.

Been coaching for four years at this age, I've yet to see one who tells me "coach, I don't want to have fun... I want to win!"  Not one.  But then again, I don't coach *select teams* nor the competitive teams set up by adults to live out their own fantasy.  I'm sure many of those kids would parakeet the "I want to win!" mantra well.  I just don't coach nor involve myself with those folks.

The great thing is it does not matter when they are 8...just when they are 18.  But some have that competiveness at a young age.  I got it because my older brother ALWAYS kept score in everything we played.  I did not like losing, but he was 5 yrs older, so it happened all of the time.  By the time I played with the kids my age, I had learned that to keep it close with my bro I ultimately played harder than most of the others.  This put me at an advantage...where others had me in athleticism I had them in determination.  I still contend that is a good thing (as long as you are a good sport)

Worked for you.  But this is not normal for the kids I teach.  Every single one of them want to have fun.  To a person.  And I let them.  And I teach them baseball too.  The framework to learn baseball is having fun and dealing with the failure that will happen.  Not being competitive and wanting to win.  That is usually an adult induced attitude and one I pity a kid to have in him at that age.

[JackAstro]

If the expectation of "don't half-ass it" when you've told them that it's about "fun" is introduced, be very careful how you introduce it.  In a kid's mind, what does "best effort" mean exactly when he thinks he/she is just having a ton of fun?  It's going to be hard to bring into play, but I'm sure someone has done it successfully somewhere in the mind of a kid.  I haven't and I won't introduce it.

They're already giving me maximum effort because they object is simple... have fun!  What kid in the entire world will half-ass fun?  No one.  But see, we've all seen good kids who are enjoying the game just quit because it is no longer about having fun, it's about meeting Dad or Moms or any other parent or even coach's expectation about maximum effort.  It is a dangerous attitude to bring into play for chidren (Pun intended).  Kids will walk away from baseball, a game they may have an amptitude for if they are taught how to deal with failure by just doing the right things to make it work for themselves.  But by all means, let them have fun... run around, throw a ball, swing a bat.  Enjoy.

The effort will be there if you set the expectation as "fun".  Not "winning" or "scores" or "best effort" or any of that other stuff.  Kids know when an adult has taken over and some will try to satisfy the adult and others will walk away and never come back to the game we all love.

Oh, I absolutely agree. Hope I didn't give the impression otherwise. I've never met a kid who needed encouragement when it comes to being focused on having fun.

[sporadic]

Been coaching for four years at this age, I've yet to see one who tells me "coach, I don't want to have fun... I want to win!"  Not one.  But then again, I don't coach *select teams* nor the competitive teams set up by adults to live out their own fantasy.  I'm sure many of those kids would parakeet the "I want to win!" mantra well.  I just don't coach nor involve myself with those folks.

Worked for you.  But this is not normal for the kids I teach.  Every single one of them want to have fun.  To a person.  And I let them.  And I teach them baseball too.  The framework to learn baseball is having fun and dealing with the failure that will happen.  Not being competitive and wanting to win.  That is usually an adult induced attitude and one I pity a kid to have in him at that age.

Of course they want to have fund, adn I think you are correct in the wanting to win is induced by others, in most cases.  In my case it was my brother.  I think if an adult goes out of his way to attempt to teach a young child the difference between winning and losing he is making a poor parental decision.  If the child just has it (I agree that this is rare) I think it is the responsibility of a parent to not squash it, just make sure winning does not consume the child.  I think sports at young ages is about two things...learning the rules in a controlled environment and sportsmanship.  I would say that by and large I am in agreement with you.  All I have said throughtout this post is that it is not necessarilly a bad thing for a child to be competitve - it can help tremendously later in life.  BTW, your stance on the select teams is spot on, I am glad that I was playing golf during the summers and never dealt with those (actually, I do not think they were around back in my day)

[JimR]

I'd like to do that. I'll try to look you up the next time in austin- I think it would be fun to hear stories about the greats like Babe Ruth and Walter Johnson 

I'm sure there are a lot of whack parents. I just think that it's not fair to put it all on them. Some kids are just really competitive. It's the parent's job to try to reign that in and teach them how to be ok at life.


I know it isn't an easy issue though, and way too many parents are on the wrong side, living vicariously through their kids. That is bullshit imo.

parents teach 7-8 year olds to be competitive. all they want to do is play. parents teach them that big trophies are more important. there should not be any concern whatsoever about that at 7-8. play and learn to play is all that is important. parents are the ones who have to win.

what is bullshit is a parent jumping an 8 year old's ass for not paying attention in a game.

"give your best effort" is bullshit too at 7-8. have fun and learn to play. if you look at airplanes flying over, so what?

[Jacksonian]

parents teach 7-8 year olds to be competitive. all they want to do is play. parents teach them that big trophies are more important. there should not be any concern whatsoever about that at 7-8. play and learn to play is all that is important. parents are the ones who have to win.

what is bullshit is a parent jumping an 8 year old's ass for not paying attention in a game.

Remember that parent I wrote about last week who pays his kid for goals made?  Well last weekend he rode his kid so hard about his effort in the first quarter that the kid cried.  Dad spent the rest of the game in over-praise to try to make up for it.

[Mr. Happy]

parents teach 7-8 year olds to be competitive. all they want to do is play. parents teach them that big trophies are more important. there should not be any concern whatsoever about that at 7-8. play and learn to play is all that is important. parents are the ones who have to win.

what is bullshit is a parent jumping an 8 year old's ass for not paying attention in a game.

"give your best effort" is bullshit too at 7-8. have fun and learn to play. if you look at airplanes flying over, so what?

Well said. We've all seen this sort of horseshit. The worst part of it is the forelorn look in the eyes of the player, who, in addition to no longer having fun, is beginning to hate the experience.

[MRaup]

Well said. We've all seen this sort of horseshit. The worst part of it is the forelorn look in the eyes of the player, who, in addition to no longer having fun, is beginning to hate the experience.

And those same kids end up not playing sports in high school because "they're just not fun for me".

Because that memory of Dad screaming at your 8 year old self for missing that fly ball sits in the back of your head for a looooong time.

[Sambito]

Better than thinking he was a bucket of crap and trying to be a bed of roses.  Although the crap can help make the roses grow faster, stronger and smell better.  

Somewhere in there remindes me of a saying my Grandpa always told me "the grass is always greener over the septic tank".

Actually that's Erma Bombeck

[WulawHorn]

parents teach 7-8 year olds to be competitive. all they want to do is play. parents teach them that big trophies are more important. there should not be any concern whatsoever about that at 7-8. play and learn to play is all that is important. parents are the ones who have to win.

what is bullshit is a parent jumping an 8 year old's ass for not paying attention in a game.

"give your best effort" is bullshit too at 7-8. have fun and learn to play. if you look at airplanes flying over, so what?

I think it is about time for me to bow out on this conversation. I'm not a parent, and I haven't coached kids yet- so I really am not seeing/understanding what yall are saying. I could always pay attention to the game, and that was what was "fun" to me- to think through the scenario's, think strategy, action etc. That's how I watched games from the time I was really young with my dad- me asking questions about why stuff happened- what was going on etc.  Some (most?) kids aren't wired like that- I had some self awareness about myself, and that I was a bit different, but not all that much general awareness of what made others tick at that time.

I'm sure I'm taking adult views and ascribing them to kids I guess. I didn't like kids watching airplanes while the game was going on.  My brother was one of those kids- and he was a waaaaay better athlete then me, we both love sports to this day- and love to watch them/bond with our dad/each other while doing it.

Thanks for the insights, and thanks to guys like Noe who sound like a great coach for kids nowadays- Good job Noe and Houston, Jim etc for working with kids and having your heart in the right place.

 

[Sambito]

Hockey players seem to be one of the more humbler sports figures; they sort each other out and have to play together for each other versus for self

I have always maintained that baseball players and golfers are the most humble of professional athletes b/c they are both games with so much failure built into them.  Most all great players though have an incredible belief in themselves (ego perhaps?) that they can execute at the highest level possible or they could not be great.

I was that 7 year old that Curly described- I didn't want to play with a kid chasing gofers. If fun is chasing gofers then do that in the back yard on saturday instead of playing baseball.

Now, if you are just a spaz, or mess up a grounder, or strike out, or someone else makes a play on a liner you hit then that is the breaks, and you try to get them next time. I don't see why it's ok to not try or care about what you are doing.  

[Limey]

Hockey players seem to be one of the more humbler sports figures; they sort each other out and have to play together for each other versus for self

A stick in the mouth is a quick way to learn some respect.

[Sambito]

Puck that! Humble and then some

A stick in the mouth is a quick way to learn some respect.

[Sambito]

I have got to chime in on this one from a coaches perspective (non-bb
and non-golf)... As has been said ad nauseum: early child development
in sport or academics calls for:

1) engagement: giving young players the time, space, and appreciation for skill acquisition, working within a team concept and roles, and proper instruction.

2) Challenging players with three elements slowly over time: responsibility, pressure, and tactics... these are built into many of the games and really donot need to be inculcated into our youth ( Jim R is quite right; the winner mentality here ultimately ruins the process and makes it about discrete measurable outcomes.

3) Lastly, playing for each other in team sports can NOT be overlooked; being on the outside as many of us are with astros (we may not be able to witness how they will play for each other in their 162-game process...) with young teams' its their relationships with friends... this process should NOT be hijacked by parents in the name of winning... 

What I do like, though, is how Houston is trying balance youth baseball and his son by discussing processes and challenging himself.. Well done.  One parent here who won't make it about himself...

John 
   

[Duman]

have fun and learn to play. if you look at airplanes flying over, so what?

We had to call time in my son's rec league game last week because the left fielder had pulled a tooth.  That was fun!

My son, who is 7, said something interesting the other day.  He has been struggling to hit the 42 mph hitting machine the league uses for 7-8 year olds.  He got a good solid hit up the middle.  In the car he said to my wife "I had fun today".  I wasn't there to follow up on what made it more fun.  My wife (who is actually more competitive than I am) thought it was about he felt successful.  I think he just had fun. I think the fact that the dugout dad kept the chaos to a minimum helped too (no gloves, bats or helmets where thrown).  He doesn't like chaos.

[Mr. Happy]

We had to call time in my son's rec league game last week because the left fielder had pulled a tooth.  That was fun!

My son, who is 7, said something interesting the other day.  He has been struggling to hit the 42 mph hitting machine the league uses for 7-8 year olds.  He got a good solid hit up the middle.  In the car he said to my wife "I had fun today".  I wasn't there to follow up on what made it more fun.  My wife (who is actually more competitive than I am) thought it was about he felt successful.  I think he just had fun. I think the fact that the dugout dad kept the chaos to a minimum helped too (no gloves, bats or helmets where thrown).  He doesn't like chaos.

42 MPH strikes me as just a tad bit fast for 7-8's.

[NeilT]

Three pop quiz questions from my son's current 15-16 year old mini season.  I coached baseball, but never managed.  I managed soccer.  As a sport for kids, I prefer soccer, but like baseball better as a sport, and my son likes baseball better (at 15, soccer for him is much harder).  Answer these questions 1) as a parent, 2) as a coach.  Kids, after all, want something from their parents in sports: they want the parents to be engaged, they want them to care when the kid wins and to provide understanding when the kid screws up.  Thee scenarios from Andy's current mini-season for 15 and 16 year olds:

He's in right field, there's a pop fly, the ball does the equivalent of bounce off his head and the tying run scores.  It is unimaginably, dance-stepping, glove waving, crowd moaning ugly.  What does the kid need, from his manager and from his parent?

The next night, against a Bellaire high school JV/Freshman team, pitching 2 innings:  4k, 2S, 2BB (1 intentional), no runs.  the first four innings are pitched no-hit by a kid who's brother was drafted out of high school--high, 32d round I think, but drafted.  What does your kid need? 

The kid decides to drop soccer to play baseball.  He's probably better at soccer, but marginally.  What's your job as a parent?  What if the kid is dropping soccer to take up ballet?  That last is a trick question, by the way.

Do your answers differ if the kid is 9, not 15?  12?

I don't know the answers.  I made fun of him for the first, i praised him and let him praise himself for the 2d, and don't know what to do about the third.  the thing is, though, my answer doesn't change if he's 9 or 12.  He still feels bad in the first, and he still feels good in the 2d--what I think he wants from me is participation.
 

[JackAstro]

I don't know the answers.  I made fun of him for the first, i praised him and let him praise himself for the 2d, and don't know what to do about the third.  the thing is, though, my answer doesn't change if he's 9 or 12.  He still feels bad in the first, and he still feels good in the 2d--what I think he wants from me is participation.

Wait, you actually made fun of him, or you tried to make light of it so he wouldn't be down about it?

For soccer vs baseball, what do you mean what's your job as a parent? Do you mean that you'd consider making him play soccer even though he doesn't want to because you think he's better at it?

[MikeyBoy]

The effort will be there if you set the expectation as "fun".  Not "winning" or "scores" or "best effort" or any of that other stuff.  Kids know when an adult has taken over and some will try to satisfy the adult and others will walk away and never come back to the game we all love.

Exactly, Noe. The expectation should be set at fun and fun should be open to interpretation by the kid. Some kids think having fun playing baseball means playing in the dirt and saying the team cheer after the game. For others, like my son, fun is stopping the grounder, or making the catch that everyone cheers for, for getting the other kids out, etc. All my son talks about in between games is how many outs he made on defense, which for 5 year old T-Ball outs are a premium, but to him that is fun, well that and sliding so he can get dirty.

I have a story from the ride home tonight following our last game of the season...my son and I were on the way home from the ballpark at 8:30 or so, and he says "Daddy, I'm sorry", "for what" I say, "for missing the ball and not getting the boy out" he says. My son was playing catcher and missed a throw from the pitcher to get a kid out at home, it's a catch he makes 99% of the time it just took a bad hop on him. I congratulated the pitcher and my son on the play because it was still a better play than 95% of the plays during the game. So anyway, I said "Bryce, I don't care, did you have fun?", "yea" he says and then I go into a 5 minute speech about get 'em next time, remember this play or that play, your hat looks goofy and what do you want from McDonalds, etc., etc. I look back mid speech and he is asleep. Yep, I am the master motivator.

[Curly]

Noe nailed it. There's really nothing more to say.

  How about the kid that sucks at tag, but insists on playing or he will tell his mother.  So you let him play, he sucks, easy target and he always complains or makes up new rules to the game just to make it easier, more fun for him.  The other kids want to play the real game of tag, but can't and finally give up all together and go do something else to get away from that kid.

[Curly]

Actually that's Erma Bombeck

They were drinking buddies.

[JackAstro]

  How about the kid that sucks at tag, but insists on playing or he will tell his mother.  So you let him play, he sucks, easy target and he always complains or makes up new rules to the game just to make it easier, more fun for him.  The other kids want to play the real game of tag, but can't and finally give up all together and go do something else to get away from that kid.

Organize a traveling tag select team?

[Curly]

Organize a traveling tag select team?

Now that made me chuckle.  Thanks.

[NeilT]

Wait, you actually made fun of him, or you tried to make light of it so he wouldn't be down about it?

For soccer vs baseball, what do you mean what's your job as a parent? Do you mean that you'd consider making him play soccer even though he doesn't want to because you think he's better at it?

Made fun of him.  Made him laugh.

I might consider it.  At 15 I don't think I'd be successful.

[JimR]

Three pop quiz questions from my son's current 15-16 year old mini season.  I coached baseball, but never managed.  I managed soccer.  As a sport for kids, I prefer soccer, but like baseball better as a sport, and my son likes baseball better (at 15, soccer for him is much harder).  Answer these questions 1) as a parent, 2) as a coach.  Kids, after all, want something from their parents in sports: they want the parents to be engaged, they want them to care when the kid wins and to provide understanding when the kid screws up.  Thee scenarios from Andy's current mini-season for 15 and 16 year olds:

He's in right field, there's a pop fly, the ball does the equivalent of bounce off his head and the tying run scores.  It is unimaginably, dance-stepping, glove waving, crowd moaning ugly.  What does the kid need, from his manager and from his parent?

The next night, against a Bellaire high school JV/Freshman team, pitching 2 innings:  4k, 2S, 2BB (1 intentional), no runs.  the first four innings are pitched no-hit by a kid who's brother was drafted out of high school--high, 32d round I think, but drafted.  What does your kid need? 

The kid decides to drop soccer to play baseball.  He's probably better at soccer, but marginally.  What's your job as a parent?  What if the kid is dropping soccer to take up ballet?  That last is a trick question, by the way.

Do your answers differ if the kid is 9, not 15?  12?

I don't know the answers.  I made fun of him for the first, i praised him and let him praise himself for the 2d, and don't know what to do about the third.  the thing is, though, my answer doesn't change if he's 9 or 12.  He still feels bad in the first, and he still feels good in the 2d--what I think he wants from me is participation.

why does a parent have to DO anything in those situations? kids must learn to handle adversity, and the rescuing parent is the worst development in the last 100 years.

what i feel most strongly about is dropping soccer b/c he prefers baseball. that is totally his decision, and a parent should support it. what the parent thinks he is better at makes no difference whatsover.

[Sambito]

why does a parent have to DO anything in those situations? kids must learn to handle adversity, and the rescuing parent is the worst development in the last 100 years.

what i feel most strongly about is dropping soccer b/c he prefers baseball. that is totally his decision, and a parent should support it. what the parent thinks he is better at makes no difference whatsover.

excellent point; over-coming adversity (especially in this economy) is a lost art... and
the parents often times are worse than the robber-barons of the early 1900's.. and of
course parent-directed sport specialization gravy-training is a fucking joke (the college scholarship grail; the end justifies the means bullshit).. But Jim, I have to think that there are some families (without two parents, lower SES, going through a vicious divorce, or where there is serious dysfunction: where parental engagement is helpful)
The question for these families then becomes about degree and magnitude of involvement...

I guess from what I've seen in coaching is mostly the over-hyped parents on steriods yelling from the stands ("the My boy shit")... the privatization of sports in my book has taken off where early sport specialization, focus winning earlier and less on emphasis  on development (we see this highschool basketball and soccer) less technique more flash..

I just talked myself out of my point I think--- we'll its like prego (Its in there somewhere)

[Duman]

42 MPH strikes me as just a tad bit fast for 7-8's.

I agree but it is the only option in the county.