Author Topic: Last 7 days  (Read 10274 times)

pravata

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Last 7 days
« on: May 09, 2007, 11:19:51 am »

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MusicMan

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2007, 11:23:42 am »
You mean when the guy at the top is reaching base, and 3-6 are hitting with power, teams score more runs??

BRILLIANT!
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pravata

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2007, 11:29:42 am »
You mean when the guy at the top is reaching base, and 3-6 are hitting with power, teams score more runs??

BRILLIANT!

Personally, I think Morgan Ensberg should be batting 6th and driving the ball instead of walking.  But, he's comfortable hitting 2nd, and Thunder Pants, who I think the Astros ignored everything they've said about previously to bring up, is knocking in the runs.  Yet, who brings you this news?

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2007, 11:35:32 am »
Personally, I think Morgan Ensberg should be batting 6th and driving the ball instead of walking.  But, he's comfortable hitting 2nd, and Thunder Pants, who I think the Astros ignored everything they've said about previously to bring up, is knocking in the runs.  Yet, who brings you this news?

Couple of looking k's last night.  Both with runners on, IIRC.
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pravata

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2007, 11:38:26 am »
Couple of looking k's last night.  Both with runners on, IIRC.

Not even to mention that he came to bat in 2 crucial situations on Sunday and could have changed the outcome with a basehit.  Definitely a work in progress.  Not yet the straw that stirs the drink.

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2007, 11:42:13 am »
You mean when the guy at the top is reaching base, and 3-6 are hitting with power, teams score more runs??

BRILLIANT!

The Astros are kind of funny in a way.  They have Biggio at leadoff who basically isn't about gettng on-base per se.  He's about getting his knocks and helping the team win that way.  Then you get to Ensberg who isn't about moving Biggio over like a good contact hitting #2 would.  It's about a guy taking the walk and getting on-base primarily and if the pitcher decides to challenge him with good fastballs, then... well... maybe he'll swing at a couple of them.  It's not your prototypical top of the lineup sorts.  Burke and Loretta would be much better at it if you were looking for prototypical.  And throw Loretta a challenge fastball... or even if you throw a fastball away and low, this guy will still eat those pitches alive and you'll think to yourself... "Damn, this guy is a tough out!".  Loretta is a contact guy par excellance!  But I digress... the Astros are currently employing the top of the order guys that are different than the norm and it's working (to an extent).

What is really rounding into shape (pun intended) is the middle of the lineup. Berkman, Lee and Scott are becoming a well functioning middle of the lineup.  PENCE!!! works well at the #6 because he can free swing to his hearts desire now.  And it's working so far, even in that disaster of a game in St. Louis on Sunday, there were signs that good things were starting to happen.

The long term though is what will Ensberg really do as a #2?  I mean, he isn't contact hitting at all.  He doesn't really employ an approach of hitting behind a runner.  Is that important?  Over the long haul, you do want to have your #2 doing those sorts of little things for sure.  Last night, in a different sort of situation but one that illustrates the approach factor of being in a lineup, cropped up.

Tight game, Reds up 5-4.  Lane doubles over Dunn's head to lead off the inning.  Next batter is PENCE!!!, now mind you, he isn't the #2 guy, he's supposed to find a way to drive Lane in to tie the game.  So he's swinging, good... that is what he's supposed to do in that role.  Swing the bat, drive him in.  First pitch was a slider that PENCE!!! pulled off of.  Same pitch came second.  Same result, swing and a miss.  I still think he's doing what he's supposed to do in that role.  But think for a minute if you will: what if PENCE!!! is hitting #2 and behind him is Lance Berkman and not Adam Everett.  Same approach?

No.

As a #2, PENCE!!! would be required at the very least to be a productive out.  No strikeout.  No trying to drive him in.  His job if he were in the same situation is to move Lane over to third base.  That means hitting behind the runner and trying to push the ball towards the right side.  But hitting #6, he is swinging to drive in Lane.  So he grounds back to the mound and Lane doesn't move.  Next batter up is Adam Everett and he flies out to centerfield.  Deep enough to score Lane had he been moved to third on a productive out.  But see, that is the point... a #6 isn't tasked to do that, but a #2 is.  So that is subtle but the thing you look for in a marathon season to work for your favor.

Will Ensberg finally get to this point and make productive outs part of his game?  Will contact hitting become something he understands?  Will walking become the only thing he understands with this position?  It may not hurt the team for Ensberg to be #2, but for now I reserve my judgement if overall, we're not talking about how it didn't help the team much to have a non-contact, make productive outs type at the 2 hole this season in order to give MoBerg a place to reside.

Time will be the judge of this unorthodox approach to the top of the lineup.

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2007, 11:44:05 am »
PENCE!!!'s swing on a 2-0 pitch last night, resulting in a dribbler to the pitcher with a man on 2b, made me want to kick a puppy.

Free swinging?  Cool.
Bad swinging?  Not cool.
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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2007, 11:48:17 am »
Couple of looking k's last night.  Both with runners on, IIRC.

Ensberg K'd with no one on in the first and later with Biggio on first in the seventh before the Berkman homer.
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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2007, 11:50:35 am »
Not even to mention that he came to bat in 2 crucial situations on Sunday and could have changed the outcome with a basehit.  Definitely a work in progress.  Not yet the straw that stirs the drink.

3 times with runners in scoring position.  GIDP in the 4th with men on first and second.  He made the last out in the 6th and 8th with men in scoring position.
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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2007, 11:51:18 am »
PENCE!!!'s swing on a 2-0 pitch last night, resulting in a dribbler to the pitcher with a man on 2b, made me want to kick a puppy.

Free swinging?  Cool.
Bad swinging?  Not cool.

Good approach though.  He's supposed to drive in that run, so a 2-0 pitch is a hitter's pitch.  In his mind, he's telling himself "be ready to hit the ball".  The result didn't bother me at all.  Far and away, he keeps thinking like that in the 6 hole, he's going to do well.  He could've thought like a 2 hole hitter and hit behind Lane, but then the onus is once again on Adam Everett or Brad Ausmus to drive in a run.  As it were, they were tasked to do so because the result was bad on Pence's AB.  But his approach was dead spot on and I for one was proud he knew what to do in that instance.

Don't be afraid to swing the bat and drive in runs, that is what a 6 hole guy should do.

Limey

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2007, 11:52:17 am »
Ensberg K'd with no one on in the first and later with Biggio on first in the seventh before the Berkman homer.

Gracias.  I watched K #1 through a thick red mist.
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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2007, 11:54:02 am »
3 times with runners in scoring position.  GIDP in the 4th with men on first and second.  He made the last out in the 6th and 8th with men in scoring position.

Ensberg is still an enigma to me.  He feels good about his role right now, so that's cool.  But I just don't see a real approach by Morgan to what he should be doing in this lineup yet.  But he's having fun and that's all that matters I guess.

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2007, 11:55:01 am »
Gracias.  I watched K #1 through a thick red mist.

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2007, 11:55:05 am »
Last night

Lane leadoff double. Pence weak groundout doesn't advance runner.

In a close game like that I was kind of hoping to see Pence maybe lay down a sac bunt.  In fact there have been a couple times since he came up when I thought he might be bunting but instead made an out without advancing the runner(s).  Is Garner scared he can't lay one down or something?

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2007, 11:55:18 am »
Good approach though.  He's supposed to drive in that run, so a 2-0 pitch is a hitter's pitch.  In his mind, he's telling himself "be ready to hit the ball".  The result didn't bother me at all.  Far and away, he keeps thinking like that in the 6 hole, he's going to do well.  He could've thought like a 2 hole hitter and hit behind Lane, but then the onus is once again on Adam Everett or Brad Ausmus to drive in a run.  As it were, they were tasked to do so because the result was bad on Pence's AB.  But his approach was dead spot on and I for one was proud he knew what to do in that instance.

Don't be afraid to swing the bat and drive in runs, that is what a 6 hole guy should do.

Smart aggressive: Ok.

Dumb aggressive: Not ok.

He was dumb aggressive in that situation swinging at a pitcher's pitch instead of laying off a pitch he had no chance of driving.  An experienced Pence will do better.
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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2007, 11:56:17 am »
Ensberg is still an enigma to me.  He feels good about his role right now, so that's cool.  But I just don't see a real approach by Morgan to what he should be doing in this lineup yet.  But he's having fun and that's all that matters I guess.

I thought Pravata was talking about Pence there.  The at-bats I referred to were Pence's on Sunday.
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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2007, 11:56:24 am »
Last night

Lane leadoff double. Pence weak groundout doesn't advance runner.

In a close game like that I was kind of hoping to see Pence maybe lay down a sac bunt.  In fact there have been a couple times since he came up when I thought he might be bunting but instead made an out without advancing the runner(s).  Is Garner scared he can't lay one down or something?

Why would you have PENCE!!! lay down a sac to bring up Everett, who lately cannot even make a productive out?
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Noe

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2007, 12:01:19 pm »
Last night

Lane leadoff double. Pence weak groundout doesn't advance runner.

In a close game like that I was kind of hoping to see Pence maybe lay down a sac bunt.  In fact there have been a couple times since he came up when I thought he might be bunting but instead made an out without advancing the runner(s).  Is Garner scared he can't lay one down or something?

No.  Garner is letting PENCE!!! do his job as the 6 hole hitter.

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2007, 12:03:00 pm »
Smart aggressive: Ok.

Dumb aggressive: Not ok.

He was dumb aggressive in that situation swinging at a pitcher's pitch instead of laying off a pitch he had no chance of driving.  An experienced Pence will do better.

2-0 is not a pitchers count.  However, sometimes you get the bear, sometimes the bear gets you.  But you don't give up the fight regardless.  You get in there, fight damnit and swing the bat.  IMHO of course.

I'd rather see him swing than watch a good opportunity go away because he allowe a pitcher to control the count again.

pravata

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2007, 12:04:17 pm »
I thought Pravata was talking about Pence there.  The at-bats I referred to were Pence's on Sunday.

I was. 

Noe

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2007, 12:04:36 pm »
I thought Pravata was talking about Pence there.  The at-bats I referred to were Pence's on Sunday.

I answered the wrong post.  It was meant for the one above the one I answered.

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2007, 12:06:09 pm »
2-0 is not a pitchers count.  However, sometimes you get the bear, sometimes the bear gets you.  But you don't give up the fight regardless.  You get in there, fight damnit and swing the bat.  IMHO of course.

I'd rather see him swing than watch a good opportunity go away because he allowe a pitcher to control the count again.

My memory tells me that pitch might not have even been called a strike.
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Noe

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2007, 12:06:15 pm »
3 times with runners in scoring position.  GIDP in the 4th with men on first and second.  He made the last out in the 6th and 8th with men in scoring position.

Results are necessary in the major leagues.  But what I want to see PENCE!!! do is understand his role in this lineup and then do it.  Those ABs on Sunday do not tell me that he's doing wrong... far from it.  It tells me he's doing his job.  Results, good ones, may come later because of it.

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2007, 12:08:43 pm »
My memory tells me that pitch might not have even been called a strike.

Well, truth be told, a sinker away was a mystery pitch for a strike all night long.  Merriweather didn't have a consistent call on that pitch for sure.  That is until Conine struck out to end the game.

I still say I'd much rather see a free swinging rookie kid swing the bat than to try and work a count beyond what he had already.  You cannot be tentative in the 6 hole, you have to be aggressive.

Limey

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2007, 12:14:53 pm »
I still say I'd much rather see a free swinging rookie kid swing the bat than to try and work a count beyond what he had already.  You cannot be tentative in the 6 hole, you have to be aggressive.

There's already one Iceberg on this team.  We don't want to start making more of 'em.
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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2007, 12:18:38 pm »
There's already one Iceberg on this team.  We don't want to start making more of 'em.

I'd have a different opinion if PENCE!!! were hitting #2, but somehow, I get this feeling that things are changing from the conventional and orthodox in the majors to unorthodox and unconventional.  But the bottomline is still this for scoring runs: get on base, drive them in.

A lineup is built for that express purpose.  Every aspect of said lineup is built to maximize that effort of "get on base, drive them in".

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2007, 12:22:53 pm »
There's already one Iceberg on this team.  We don't want to start making more of 'em.

Iceberg.  Like it.  Like it alot.
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pravata

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2007, 12:24:31 pm »
I'd have a different opinion if PENCE!!! were hitting #2, but somehow, I get this feeling that things are changing from the conventional and orthodox in the majors to unorthodox and unconventional.  But the bottomline is still this for scoring runs: get on base, drive them in.

A lineup is built for that express purpose.  Every aspect of said lineup is built to maximize that effort of "get on base, drive them in".

I can't see Thunder Pants being expected to do anything more than grip it and rip it at this point.  So 6 is where he should be.  And Ensberg seems to fall into the Lidge category.  He wasn't doing what they wanted him to, and what they thought they were paying for, so instead of declaring him a total loss, they let him do what he is able to do. 

Limey

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2007, 12:33:47 pm »
Iceberg.  Like it.  Like it alot.

I don't think I coined that one.
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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2007, 12:38:33 pm »
Iceberg.  Like it.  Like it alot.

Yep, makes you ask why you didn't come up with it yourself.  Excellent moniker.
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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2007, 12:47:30 pm »
Yep, makes you ask why you didn't come up with it yourself.  Excellent moniker.

The first use didn't even refer to Ensberg - link

But the first use I can find on TZ in reference to Ensberg actually was from Limey, on April 9: link.
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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2007, 12:55:27 pm »
But the first use I can find on TZ in reference to Ensberg actually was from Limey, on April 9: link.


Really?  Maybe I did coin it.  I was probably drunk.
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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2007, 12:59:06 pm »

Really?  Maybe I did coin it.  I was probably drunk.

That's a pretty safe bet

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2007, 01:34:23 pm »
Ensberg K'd with no one on in the first and later with Biggio on first in the seventh before the Berkman homer.
On the Ensberg stuff, the other day when Garner had him leading off, my first reaction was... "Ensberg is not a lead-off hitter!"

The more I thought about it, though, what is a lead-off guy supposed to do?  It is not like Biggio is a SB threat anymore, so that part is out.  But a lead-off guy is typically a good OBP type, who's main attribute is working the count, both to show the next few hitters what the pitcher has (when leading off a game) and to give a pitcher time to regroup following an AB.  Seems like over the past several season, Ensberg has been one of the top players in the majors in Pitches seen per AB.  And he has been a pretty good OBP guy even when hitting like a minor leaguer.  Not wanting to delve off into the topic of batting order and who should hit where, but it seems to me the better line-up is Ensberg leading off and Biggio hitting 2nd.  At least based on the last couple of seasons and their habits at the plate.  It is not like bumping Biggio down 1 slot is really going to rob him of all that many ABs in his quest for 3K.

And then maybe Ensberg's habits/flaws are put to better use for the team.  Just a thought.

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2007, 01:37:32 pm »
I'd have a different opinion if PENCE!!! were hitting #2, but somehow, I get this feeling that things are changing from the conventional and orthodox in the majors to unorthodox and unconventional.  But the bottomline is still this for scoring runs: get on base, drive them in.

A lineup is built for that express purpose.  Every aspect of said lineup is built to maximize that effort of "get on base, drive them in".
While he doesn't seem to hit for the average, PENCE!!! reminds me alot of Francouer at the plate, remember him of the walk allergy.  And when I say reminds, I mean in their aggressive approach at the plate, not swing style, or results.

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2007, 01:39:45 pm »
So stat guys--where would you find the stats for number of pitches per at bat? And does it have some cute acronym?
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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2007, 01:42:15 pm »
So stat guys--where would you find the stats for number of pitches per at bat? And does it have some cute acronym?
Pitches per Plate Appearance, P/PA

And Morgan Ensberg is indeed leading the majors in this category.  Can't say I'm surprised.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting?split=0&league=mlb&season=2007&seasonType=2&sort=pitchesPerPlateAppearance&type=exp&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&state=0&college=0&country=0&hand=a&pos=all
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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2007, 01:43:10 pm »
Here

(Nevermind, Leftys' addresses the question directly)
« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 01:54:57 pm by joshd »
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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2007, 01:47:18 pm »
Ensberg K'd with no one on in the first and later with Biggio on first in the seventh before the Berkman homer.

I thought that pitch was low. And up until he let it go by I thought he was having a pretty good at-bat.

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2007, 01:48:21 pm »
Pitches per Plate Appearance, P/PA

And Morgan Ensberg is indeed leading the majors in this category.  Can't say I'm surprised.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting?split=0&league=mlb&season=2007&seasonType=2&sort=pitchesPerPlateAppearance&type=exp&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&state=0&college=0&country=0&hand=a&pos=all

Thank you.  If you sort GIDP, El Caballo leads the majors.  Not the category I want him leading in.
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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2007, 01:51:46 pm »
Thank you.  If you sort GIDP, El Caballo leads the majors.  Not the category I want him leading in.

Nope, but he's always hit a few: doesn't strike out, hits his fair share of ground balls, doesn't exactly bust out of the batter's box.  Just gotta take it as part of the package.
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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2007, 01:57:58 pm »
Nope, but he's always hit a few: doesn't strike out, hits his fair share of ground balls, doesn't exactly bust out of the batter's box.  Just gotta take it as part of the package.

I recall another former Astros slugger was usually in the top 10 or so in the league.  He seemed to still get the job done anyway. 
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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2007, 01:59:31 pm »
Pitches per Plate Appearance, P/PA

And Morgan Ensberg is indeed leading the majors in this category.  Can't say I'm surprised.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting?split=0&league=mlb&season=2007&seasonType=2&sort=pitchesPerPlateAppearance&type=exp&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&state=0&college=0&country=0&hand=a&pos=all

In 2005, he was looking at 3.94 P/PA, 36th place.
Oye. Vamos, vamos.

Noe

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2007, 02:02:33 pm »
On the Ensberg stuff, the other day when Garner had him leading off, my first reaction was... "Ensberg is not a lead-off hitter!"

The more I thought about it, though, what is a lead-off guy supposed to do?  It is not like Biggio is a SB threat anymore, so that part is out.  But a lead-off guy is typically a good OBP type, who's main attribute is working the count, both to show the next few hitters what the pitcher has (when leading off a game) and to give a pitcher time to regroup following an AB.  Seems like over the past several season, Ensberg has been one of the top players in the majors in Pitches seen per AB.  And he has been a pretty good OBP guy even when hitting like a minor leaguer.  Not wanting to delve off into the topic of batting order and who should hit where, but it seems to me the better line-up is Ensberg leading off and Biggio hitting 2nd.  At least based on the last couple of seasons and their habits at the plate.  It is not like bumping Biggio down 1 slot is really going to rob him of all that many ABs in his quest for 3K.

And then maybe Ensberg's habits/flaws are put to better use for the team.  Just a thought.

Actually, this is a very astute observation.  Good job.  It is in essence as if Biggio is doing his thing, it's all good and all, but the onus to be the leadoff really will fall to the #2 guy for now.  It's like this sorta: Biggio is hitting for the record, the lineup really starts to function when the #2 guy steps in... and thus MoBerg is a quasi-leadoff... because he ain't no traditional #2, that's for sure.

Astroholic

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2007, 02:41:20 pm »
I recall another former Astros slugger was usually in the top 10 or so in the league.  He seemed to still get the job done anyway. 

D. Bell?

Limey

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2007, 03:11:37 pm »
I thought that pitch was low. And up until he let it go by I thought he was having a pretty good at-bat.

Good pitch, right at the knees and over the plate.  Too close to take when down 2 strikes.

ETA:  Better to go down swinging, or put it in play and make the defense put you out.
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Kean

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2007, 03:33:41 pm »
Quote from: Limey link=topic=.msg#msg date=
Good pitch, right at the knees and over the plate.  Too close to take when down 2 strikes.

ETA:  Better to go down swinging, or put it in play and make the defense put you out.

I was sick when this happened: I predicted it. There's a good reason why Ensberg walks so muchand is getting better--he takes pride in it and practices, practices, practices eyeing pitches. DaveandBrett said last night that in talking with Ensberg he said he had always focused on waiting for the right pitch since Little League.

Ensberg has the wrong philosophy. His eye gets better; his bat doesn't get the practice it needs. And a good pitch on the corners will catch him. In the playoffs, he will disappoint even in a good year.

Spider Pellini

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #48 on: May 09, 2007, 04:06:19 pm »
I was sick when this happened: I predicted it. There's a good reason why Ensberg walks so muchand is getting better--he takes pride in it and practices, practices, practices eyeing pitches. DaveandBrett said last night that in talking with Ensberg he said he had always focused on waiting for the right pitch since Little League.

Ensberg has the wrong philosophy. His eye gets better; his bat doesn't get the practice it needs. And a good pitch on the corners will catch him. In the playoffs, he will disappoint even in a good year.

Awwww geeez... I guess we oughta shoot the sumbitch and get it over with... 

JimR

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #49 on: May 09, 2007, 04:07:31 pm »
Awwww geeez... I guess we oughta shoot the sumbitch and get it over with... 

there have been many times when i would have done this without remorse.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

Spider Pellini

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #50 on: May 09, 2007, 04:17:18 pm »
there have been many times when i would have done this without remorse.

Yeah but then, you got a mean streak in you that makes Spack look like a sissy...

JimR

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #51 on: May 09, 2007, 04:18:58 pm »
Yeah but then, you got a mean streak in you that makes Spack look like a sissy...

just hate to see a waste of talent
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

Limey

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #52 on: May 09, 2007, 04:19:33 pm »
there have been many times when i would have done this without remorse.

Most of 'em during the 2005 World Series.
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

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Re: Last 7 days
« Reply #53 on: May 09, 2007, 05:32:13 pm »
Musicman, I could see kicking a cat or any feline for that matter
but man's best friend.... a puppy?

This isn't Larussa's house!

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PENCE!!!'s swing on a 2-0 pitch last night, resulting in a dribbler to the pitcher with a man on 2b, made me want to kick a puppy.

Free swinging?  Cool.
Bad swinging?  Not cool.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 05:34:18 pm by Sambito »
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