Jason Jennings anyone?

[toddthebod]

NYPost says that the Rockies are making Jennings available and the Astros might make a good trading partner since the Rockies are looking for a young centerfielder in return.

The Link

Jennings is signed for 2007 at a very reasonable 5.5 million but will be a free agent in 2008.  Anyone interested in Jennings in exchange for Wily T?

Oh, and Jennings is from Dallas so he may have a ranch outside of Houston.  So I guess a long-term deal is not entirely out of the question.

[Bench]

Quote:
NYPost says that the Rockies are making Jennings available and the Astros might make a good trading partner since the Rockies are looking for a young centerfielder in return.

The Link

Jennings is signed for 2007 at a very reasonable 5.5 million but will be a free agent in 2008.  Anyone interested in Jennings in exchange for Wily T?

Oh, and Jennings is from Dallas so he may have a ranch outside of Houston.  So I guess a long-term deal is not entirely out of the question.

The Rockies are apparantly interested in  Burke.

[Alkie]

Burke and Willy for Jennings and Francis?

[Nate in IA]

Jason would be a good 3 or 4.  I'm not sure about trading Willy T for him though.  I just think his speed brings too much to the table for the Astros and for that reason I think his trade value is higher than Jason Jennings though not by much.  How about bringing Freddy Garcia back into the fold?

[jaklewein]

Quote:

Quote:
NYPost says that the Rockies are making Jennings available and the Astros might make a good trading partner since the Rockies are looking for a young centerfielder in return.

The Link

Jennings is signed for 2007 at a very reasonable 5.5 million but will be a free agent in 2008.  Anyone interested in Jennings in exchange for Wily T?

Oh, and Jennings is from Dallas so he may have a ranch outside of Houston.  So I guess a long-term deal is not entirely out of the question.

The Rockies are apparantly interested in  Burke.

I've seen where Burke's been included in various rumored trades (mostly made up bullshit I'm sure) and seen the rumor about COL having interest in him.  My question is this...Can the Astros actually afford to trade him?  I mean, the way I see it...you've got Bidge (who no sure thing to produce), Bruntlett and Conrad left to man the postition should Burke be dealt.  I'm not sure I'm real high on any of them playing full time, and that includes Bidge, although I read where Conrad's had a nice little run in the AFL.

Am I forgetting another 2B-candidate?

[Alkie]

Soriano.

But really, I'd be fine with Bruntlett for half a season.

If we don't improve our pitching staff significantly, the rest of the team isn't going to matter much.

As of this second, we're looking at:

Oswalt
Hirsh
Buchholz
Wandy
JimR

[Froback]

Last I heard JimR trusted his stuff better than Wandy.

And Albers is likely ahead of Wandy after his meltdown this year too.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Quote:
Soriano.

But really, I'd be fine with Bruntlett for half a season.

If we don't improve our pitching staff significantly, the rest of the team isn't going to matter much.

As of this second, we're looking at:

Oswalt
Hirsh
Buchholz
Wandy
JimR

I heard that JimR really can't hold up over an entire season and is probably looking for preferential treatment, call it the Clemens Package, i.e. no travel when not pitching, foot rubs by the owner, cushy couch for landing his dramatic swoons, and extra money to the local press to ensure glowing, hyperbole-filled articles.

[toddthebod]

There are always a bunch of very capable middle-infielders available as free agents.  So even assuming that the Astros traded Burke and Biggio is gone at the end of the season, I would not be concerned about 2nd even if the Astros did not have someone ready in the minors.  I would also prefer to keep Wily T. over Burke.  If the deal was Burke (and even a pitching prospect) for Jennings, I would do the deal.

[Alkie]

Quote:
If the deal was Burke (and even a pitching prospect) for Jennings, I would do the deal.

Duh.

[jaklewein]

Quote:
There are always a bunch of very capable middle-infielders available as free agents.  So even assuming that the Astros traded Burke and Biggio is gone at the end of the season, I would not be concerned about 2nd even if the Astros did not have someone ready in the minors.  I would also prefer to keep Wily T. over Burke.  If the deal was Burke (and even a pitching prospect) for Jennings, I would do the deal.

Just to clarify...I wasn't worried about '08 season...I was worried about Biggio tanking after the '07 Allstar break again, or even worse...never playing well enough to tank.

[BUWebguy]

I'm a Jennings fan, but you could probably guess that from my user name/avatar. Pretty consistent innings eater; as Nate said, he'd be a good 3 or 4. Good guy, too, for what that's worth.

[MusicMan]

Quote:
Last I heard JimR trusted his stuff better than Wandy.

And Albers is likely ahead of Wandy after his meltdown this year too.

Most mammals are likely ahead of Wandy.

[toddthebod]

As the above posters suggest, there Bruntlett and Conrad are options.  The Astros could always try to sign a free agent like Craig Counsell.

[schlumburger04]

Quote:

Quote:
If the deal was Burke (and even a pitching prospect) for Jennings, I would do the deal.

Duh.

burke for 1 year of jennings is laughable as is, but to throw in another pitcher, well thats just plain crazy.

if they want a CF so bad they can take willy for jennings, no more than that.

[jaklewein]

Quote:
As the above posters suggest, there Bruntlett and Conrad are options.  The Astros could always try to sign a free agent like Craig Counsell.

Hey, if Pup thinks Bruntlett and/or Conrad can hold down the fort at 2nd then I'm all for it...I was just asking.  As far as Free Agents go...I was thinking it might be hard to bring someone in of Counsell's quality as such a player would know there would be a great chance he'd spend much of the season on the bench.  I've read where Counsell's been a hot commodity early on...would guess he'll try to get paid for a full time gig first if he can get it.

[CarolinaStro]

Quote:

Quote:

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If the deal was Burke (and even a pitching prospect) for Jennings, I would do the deal.

Duh.

burke for 1 year of jennings is laughable as is, but to throw in another pitcher, well thats just plain crazy.

if they want a CF so bad they can take willy for jennings, no more than that.

Uh...me thinks WillyT > Burke

[Alkie]

Stop.

If you talk to it, it thinks we care what it thinks.

Just leave it alone and hope it goes away.

[Bench]

Quote:
Stop.

If you talk to it, it thinks we care what it thinks.

Just leave it alone and hope it goes away.

"It puts the lotion in the basket."

[Nate in IA]

Quote:

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If the deal was Burke (and even a pitching prospect) for Jennings, I would do the deal.

Duh.

burke for 1 year of jennings is laughable as is, but to throw in another pitcher, well thats just plain crazy.

if they want a CF so bad they can take willy for jennings, no more than that.

Uh...me thinks WillyT > Burke

I think WilyT >> Burke, but then I think up-the-middle defense is a core need on any contending baseball team.  And Wily's speed at the top of the order is a real threat and would be even more so if he can raise his OBP a bit.

[Taras Bulba]

Quote:
As the above posters suggest, there Bruntlett and Conrad are options.  The Astros could always try to sign a free agent like Craig Counsell.

Getting Counsel would lock up the all important lesbian fan base.

[Arky Vaughan]

Quote:
And Wily's speed at the top of the order is a real threat and would be even more so if he can raise his OBP a bit.

That's a pretty big if.

[schlumburger04]

 

Quote:
I think WilyT >> Burke, but then I think up-the-middle defense is a core need on any contending baseball team. And Wily's speed at the top of the order is a real threat and would be even more so if he can raise his OBP a bit.

so in other words youre saying willy needs to be more like chris burke? Up-the-middle defense, speed, obp, top of the order sounds just like burke except burke has infinite more power.

[geezerdonk]

Quote:
Getting Counsel would lock up the all important lesbian fan base.

And make no mistake; it is all important.

[geezerdonk]

By the way, has anyone ever seen Counsell and k. d. lang together? I know that I haven't.

[stubbyc]

I bet some people would be shocked if told that Burke actually had a pretty nice season last year.

"No pop" "Noodle arm" and whatever other tags he was stuck with managed to start in a crucial game over the 2nd greatest Astro in history.

We have Burke under club control for 4 more years and he likely will not cost much. Burke and a pitching prospect for 1 year of Jennings? That doesn't sound great.

[MikeyBoy]

Quote:
so in other words youre saying willy needs to be more like chris burke? Up-the-middle defense, speed, obp, top of the order sounds just like burke except burke has infinite more power.

 Willy T
2006 OBP - .333 (-.014)
Post ASB OBP - .365 (+.046)

 Burke
2006 OBP - .347
Post ASB OBP - .319

Up-the-Middle Defense = Willy T
Speed = Willy T
OBP = wash
SLG% = Burke (not by much)

Willy T > C Burke

[pravata]

Quote:
... managed to start in a crucial game over the 2nd greatest Astro in history. ...

Not that day he wasn't.  Biggio aggregate career statistics had nothing to do with Oct. 1, 2006.

[Craig]

Quote:

Quote:
Soriano.

But really, I'd be fine with Bruntlett for half a season.

If we don't improve our pitching staff significantly, the rest of the team isn't going to matter much.

As of this second, we're looking at:

Oswalt
Hirsh
Buchholz
Wandy
JimR

I heard that JimR really can't hold up over an entire season and is probably looking for preferential treatment, call it the Clemens Package, i.e. no travel when not pitching, foot rubs by the owner, cushy couch for landing his dramatic swoons, and extra money to the local press to ensure glowing, hyperbole-filled articles.

Plus we'll have to keep him around long enough for his son to come up through the minors. But it might be worth it to see Mark get brushed back in spring training.

[Outlawscotty]

If he hurries, he can take Morgan's spot.......

[Nate in IA]

Quote:

Quote:
And Wily's speed at the top of the order is a real threat and would be even more so if he can raise his OBP a bit.

That's a pretty big if.

I agree it's a big if.  But perhaps not an impossible one.

[CarolinaStro]

Quote:
I bet some people would be shocked if told that Burke actually had a pretty nice season last year.

"No pop" "Noodle arm" and whatever other tags he was stuck with managed to start in a crucial game over the 2nd greatest Astro in history.

We have Burke under club control for 4 more years and he likely will not cost much. Burke and a pitching prospect for 1 year of Jennings? That doesn't sound great.

Burke is a decent successor to a 40+ y/o Biggio @ 2B but is not a superior CF to WilyT.  His OF defense (range & arm) are not in the same league as WilyT.  The Astros have WilyT under long term club control as well.  In the context of the thread, Burke for Jennings is better than WilyT for Jennings.

[stubbyc]

Quote:

Quote:
so in other words youre saying willy needs to be more like chris burke? Up-the-middle defense, speed, obp, top of the order sounds just like burke except burke has infinite more power.

 Willy T
2006 OBP - .333 (-.014)
Post ASB OBP - .365 (+.046)

 Burke
2006 OBP - .347
Post ASB OBP - .319

Up-the-Middle Defense = Willy T
Speed = Willy T
OBP = wash
SLG% = Burke (not by much)

Willy T > C Burke

That's a very clever and selective use of statistics. The SLG (not by much) comment is pretty funny. Burke looks like a 15+ homer hitter as an everyday player. Taveras looks like a guy who might hit a pair of homers in an entire season.

In 366 AB's Burke had 33 extra base hits. Taveras had 25 extra base hits in 529 AB's.

Aside from that though Taveras is a better option than Burke in CF. Burke looks like a pretty solid option at 2b though.

[pravata]

Quote:
... In 366 AB's Burke had 33 extra base hits. Taveras had 25 extra base hits in 529 AB's. ...

How many stolen bases did Taveras have?  Does it matter how the hitter ends up standing on 2nd?

[Nate in IA]

Quote:

Quote:
I think WilyT >> Burke, but then I think up-the-middle defense is a core need on any contending baseball team. And Wily's speed at the top of the order is a real threat and would be even more so if he can raise his OBP a bit.

so in other words youre saying willy needs to be more like chris burke?

No, I am not.

[stubbyc]

Quote:

Quote:
... managed to start in a crucial game over the 2nd greatest Astro in history. ...

Not that day he wasn't.  Biggio aggregate career statistics had nothing to do with Oct. 1, 2006.

Sure, but if you were to suggest that Burke would be starting over Biggio in a crucial game a year or two ago you would have been laughed at. The mere notion of Burke playing CF was a joke on here 2 years ago.

Burke did a good job filling in at multiple positions last year and hit reasonably well. People on here still talk about him as if he's worthless. Either that or they whine about having to withstand watching the guy play shortstop or center field.

[stubbyc]

Quote:

Quote:
... In 366 AB's Burke had 33 extra base hits. Taveras had 25 extra base hits in 529 AB's. ...

How many stolen bases did Taveras have?  Does it matter how the hitter ends up standing on 2nd?

My post was just a reference to their respective power. It's no contest.

Taveras had 33 SB and 9 CS. Burke had 11 SB and 1 CS. Burke had about 70% of the AB's Taveras did. If Burke was in the leadoff spot he would have likely tried to steal more bases. Taveras is a better base stealer, but Taveras isn't exactly a world class threat on the bases.

[pravata]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
... managed to start in a crucial game over the 2nd greatest Astro in history. ...

Not that day he wasn't.  Biggio aggregate career statistics had nothing to do with Oct. 1, 2006.

Sure, but if you were to suggest that Burke would be starting over Biggio in a crucial game a year or two ago you would have been laughed at. The mere notion of Burke playing CF was a joke on here 2 years ago.

Burke did a good job filling in at multiple positions last year and hit reasonably well. People on here still talk about him as if he's worthless. Either that or they whine about having to withstand watching the guy play shortstop or center field.

Burke at short is a brutal joke.  In center he has some range, but there is no hiding the noodle.  And, unfortunately for whatever argument you're trying to make, Oct 1, 2006 was not a year or two ago.

[pravata]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
... In 366 AB's Burke had 33 extra base hits. Taveras had 25 extra base hits in 529 AB's. ...

How many stolen bases did Taveras have?  Does it matter how the hitter ends up standing on 2nd?

My post was just a reference to their respective power. It's no contest.

Taveras had 33 SB and 9 CS. Burke had 11 SB and 1 CS. Burke had about 70% of the AB's Taveras did. If Burke was in the leadoff spot he would have likely tried to steal more bases. Taveras is a better base stealer, but Taveras isn't exactly a world class threat on the bases.

When was "power" ever supposed to be part of Taveras' skills?

[stubbyc]

Quote:
When was "power" ever supposed to be part of Taveras' skills?

*Sigh* My post was a direct response to the post that said you could expect similar SLG % and similar power from the 2 players. That's just not true. I have never once said that Burke is a better option than Taveras in CF.

[VirtualBob]

Quote:
Stop.

If you talk to it, it thinks we care what it thinks.

Just leave it alone and hope it goes away.

My thoughts exactly as I gritted my teeth and chose not to respond.  Too late now.

[MusicMan]

Quote:
*Sigh* My post was a direct response to the post that said you could expect similar SLG % and similar power from the 2 players. That's just not true.  

Quick... which player had the higher SLG after the ASB?

[stubbyc]

Quote:

Quote:
*Sigh* My post was a direct response to the post that said you could expect similar SLG % and similar power from the 2 players. That's just not true.  

Quick... which player had the higher SLG after the ASB?

Quick....which player had nearly a 200 point advantage in SLG prior to the ASB.

Do you honestly think its reasonable to expect similar power next season from Burke and Taveras?

[pravata]

Quote:

Quote:
When was "power" ever supposed to be part of Taveras' skills?

*Sigh* My post was a direct response to the post that said you could expect similar SLG % and similar power from the 2 players. That's just not true. I have never once said that Burke is a better option than Taveras in CF.

Nice crabbing.

[MusicMan]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
*Sigh* My post was a direct response to the post that said you could expect similar SLG % and similar power from the 2 players. That's just not true.  

Quick... which player had the higher SLG after the ASB?

Quick....which player had nearly a 200 point advantage in SLG prior to the ASB.

Do you honestly think its reasonable to expect similar power next season from Burke and Taveras?

Burke slugged .489 before the ASB in 2006; the other season and a half of his career, he's been at .364.  Which do you think it's more reasonable to expect from him?

[Nate in IA]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
*Sigh* My post was a direct response to the post that said you could expect similar SLG % and similar power from the 2 players. That's just not true.  

Quick... which player had the higher SLG after the ASB?

Quick....which player had nearly a 200 point advantage in SLG prior to the ASB.

Do you honestly think its reasonable to expect similar power next season from Burke and Taveras?

I don't want similar power.   I want Wily T to be to Lance Berkman what Craig Biggio was to Jeff Bagwell.  In no way do I suggest that Wily is anything like Biggio, merely I want the same outcome.  I wouldn't mind Chris Burke hitting between them, but I think Chris Burke for Jason Jennings would be a huge win for the Astros.

[Arky Vaughan]

Quote:

Quote:
so in other words youre saying willy needs to be more like chris burke? Up-the-middle defense, speed, obp, top of the order sounds just like burke except burke has infinite more power.

 Willy T
2006 OBP - .333 (-.014)
Post ASB OBP - .365 (+.046)

 Burke
2006 OBP - .347
Post ASB OBP - .319

Up-the-Middle Defense = Willy T
Speed = Willy T
OBP = wash
SLG% = Burke (not by much)

Willy T > C Burke

Burke's advantage in slugging percentage is .418 to .338. I'm not sure I'd call that "not by much." For a full-time player, it's probably a difference of about 15 runs, depending on where he hits in the line-up and how often his teammates get on base. The difference between Willie Taveras and Chris Burke as hitters is about the same as the difference between Chris Burke and Torri Hunter as hitters, based on their 2006 seasons.

[Arky Vaughan]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
... In 366 AB's Burke had 33 extra base hits. Taveras had 25 extra base hits in 529 AB's. ...

How many stolen bases did Taveras have?  Does it matter how the hitter ends up standing on 2nd?

My post was just a reference to their respective power. It's no contest.

Taveras had 33 SB and 9 CS. Burke had 11 SB and 1 CS. Burke had about 70% of the AB's Taveras did. If Burke was in the leadoff spot he would have likely tried to steal more bases. Taveras is a better base stealer, but Taveras isn't exactly a world class threat on the bases.

Of course, extra bases on hits not only put the batter further along than first base. Those extra bases also drive in a lot more runners than stolen bases do.

Which is why a single plus a stolen base is generally worth less than a double in terms of producing runs.

[stubbyc]

Quote:
Burke slugged .489 before the ASB in 2006; the other season and a half of his career, he's been at .364.  Which do you think it's more reasonable to expect from him?

Something in between.

[Arky Vaughan]

         ---Pre-ASB---   --Post-ASB---   ---Season----
Player   Avg  OBP  Slg   Avg  OBP  Slg   Avg  OBP  Slg
------------------------------------------------------
Burke   .298 .376 .483  .255 .319 .356  .276 .347 .418
Taveras .253 .307 .308  .308 .365 .375  .278 .333 .338
------------------------------------------------------
         +45  +69 +175   -53  -46  -19    -2  +14  +80

[Jacksonian]

Quote:

         ---Pre-ASB---   --Post-ASB---   ---Season----
Player   Avg  OBP  Slg   Avg  OBP  Slg   Avg  OBP  Slg
------------------------------------------------------
Burke   .298 .376 .483  .255 .319 .356  .276 .347 .418
Taveras .253 .307 .308  .308 .365 .375  .278 .333 .338
------------------------------------------------------
         +45  +69 +175   -53  -46  -19    -2  +14  +80

Over how many at-bats?  Did Burke go on the DL in mid-May for the shoulder injury?

[schlumburger04]

Id like to just chime in here and remind everyone that burke had a bum shoulder the 2nd half of last season. And does anyone remember that 435 ft BOMB in pittsburgh? Lets not argue over this power thing its really pointless.

I want to also point out to people that his name is willy. weve been watching him play for 2 full years now lets try to get his name right.

[Arky Vaughan]

Quote:
Over how many at-bats?  Did Burke go on the DL in mid-May for the shoulder injury?

Willeeee had about a hundred more at-bats in the first half and about 60 more at-bats in the second half. Burke went on the DL in early May.

[pravata]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
... In 366 AB's Burke had 33 extra base hits. Taveras had 25 extra base hits in 529 AB's. ...

How many stolen bases did Taveras have?  Does it matter how the hitter ends up standing on 2nd?

My post was just a reference to their respective power. It's no contest.

Taveras had 33 SB and 9 CS. Burke had 11 SB and 1 CS. Burke had about 70% of the AB's Taveras did. If Burke was in the leadoff spot he would have likely tried to steal more bases. Taveras is a better base stealer, but Taveras isn't exactly a world class threat on the bases.

Of course, extra bases on hits not only put the batter further along than first base. Those extra bases also drive in a lot more runners than stolen bases do.

Which is why a single plus a stolen base is generally worth less than a double in terms of producing runs.

Which will be important when the Astros have Ensberg for his OBP, they'll need some big SLG numbers from either Burker or Taveras.

[Arky Vaughan]

Quote:
Which will be important when the Astros have Ensberg for his OBP, they'll need some big SLG numbers from either Burker or Taveras.

I think we can all agree that if they're counting on Burke or Taveras for slugging, or counting on Ensberg at all, they're probably in big trouble.

[stubbyc]

Back to Jennings though. It would be interesting to see what he could do outside of Coors. The best pitcher the Rockies have ever developed from those that I can think of.

[pravata]

Quote:
... or counting on Ensberg at all, ...

I think some of the hold up with signing Huff or trading Ensberg is Purpura trying to decide this very thing. Teams are moving fast this off season, either of these two moves will likely be the Astros opening gambit.

[Nate in IA]

Quote:
Back to Jennings though. It would be interesting to see what he could do outside of Coors. The best pitcher the Rockies have ever developed from those that I can think of.

Perhaps, though a strong argument can be made that Jeff Francis is/will be the best home-grown pitcher for the Rockies.

[Jacksonian]

Quote:

Quote:
Over how many at-bats?  Did Burke go on the DL in mid-May for the shoulder injury?

Willeeee had about a hundred more at-bats in the first half and about 60 more at-bats in the second half. Burke went on the DL in early May.

Interestingly, he alternated good months with bad. April, June, and August were good hitting months for Burke. May, July, and September were bad hitting months for Burke.

Willy's month to months weren't inspiring either though. Fair April, mediocre May, June, July, and September with a fabulous August.

I'd deal either for Jennings only if I could get a contract extention with him.

[Alkie]

Quote:
Id like to just chime in here and remind everyone that burke had a bum shoulder the 2nd half of last season. And does anyone remember that 435 ft BOMB in pittsburgh? Lets not argue over this power thing its really pointless.

I want to also point out to people that his name is willy. weve been watching him play for 2 full years now lets try to get his name right.

That's funny.  "We" have been using punctuation for thousands of years, and yet that doesn't seem to bother you when you post.

[JimR]

what an idiotic thing to say...as usual.

[Alkie]

Not from a fantasy standpoint.  

CFs who hit more HR are more valuable; didnchaknow?

Keep up Jim.  We're not talking baseball this offseason, we're talking about building a fantasy team with JD Drew for $13m per for some fucking reason.

Hey, he had a season with 100 RBI finally!  You could look it up!

[schlumburger04]

Quote:

CFs who hit more HR are more valuable; didnchaknow?
 

strange how reports are saying the rockies want burke rather than our, um, actual CF. hmmmmmmmmm, i wonder why that is...

[Alkie]

Please go somewhere else where people will appreciate you.  Please.  Please, please, please.  I'm begging you now.

We are not ready for your insight and intellect.  Clearly.  Please go away.

[Lefty]

Quote:
Hey, he had a season with 100 RBI finally!  You could look it up!

That's a meaningless counting stat and has no bearing on this discussion.  Tell me about his RCAP.

[schlumburger04]

why dont you bring your own opinions to the arguement rather than just crying about anyone who disagrees with you. all you do is make stupid jokes, try adding something to this baseball discussion.

[CarolinaStro]

Quote:
Please go somewhere else where people will appreciate you.  Please.  Please, please, please.  I'm begging you now.

We are not ready for your insight and intellect.  Clearly.  Please go away.

Alkie, you are not following your own advice.  Stop, drop, and ignore.

[Alkie]

I know, I know, I know.

Thank you.

Done.

[pravata]

Quote:
... all you do is make stupid jokes, ...

What. Seriously? What do you think is going on here?  Do you honestly think that any of your lame assed, what, WHAT, progression of decimal points (?) is going to add anything to anyone's "baseball discussion"? Really? You think, other than pointing out a nuance in a particular play that you are adding to anyone's understanding of the game?  Are you THAT arrogant? You think we all missed that? Or, are we all too spastic to search out lists of players arranged by OBP (etc.) and lock our ocular nerves on that numerical arrangement that you have to point our snouts in that direction?

[JimR]

there is no discussion, troll. just you flapping your gums. go away.

[No? in Austin]

Quote:
Which will be important when the Astros have Ensberg for his OBP, they'll need some big SLG numbers from either Burker or Taveras.

All this talk about Burke and slugging is very uneasy reading.  It is this sort of thinking on the young man that gets him a spot in the lineup right smack dab in the middle, right around sixth or so.

And sorely misused as a baseball player too.  I wish Scrap Iron would stop trying to make the young man out to be anything but a line drive hitter that he should be.  Being in a run producing role in the lineup and hitting at the MMPUS tends to put an upper cut in a swing for Burke and he becomes very useless at that point.

I'd rather see the good Chris Burke hitting solid line drives for this team and using that approach to hitting for an entire year.  Enough with this talk about slugging and 15+ homeruns already!

[No? in Austin]

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Burke did a good job filling in at multiple positions last year and hit reasonably well. People on here still talk about him as if he's worthless. Either that or they whine about having to withstand watching the guy play shortstop or center field.

So exactly how wide IS that brush of yours any way?  Worthless?  I don't think I heard any one say such a thing.  What has been said here regularily though is this: Burke has a bad arm for shortstop and not that great an instinct to play the position like another rag arm guy like Eckstein.  If you have a suspect arm, you make up for it with proper positioning and a keen know how on how to cheat at the position.  Burke relies on quickness and range to get him to a ball, so he reacts later to a ball than Eckstein and thus he cannot perform at short regularily like David Eck.  What has also been said about Burke is that all the pronouncements of a 30 homerun guy (when he wa s a rookie on the team) was well overblown.  Burke's best bet to help the team is to take a line drive approach to the plate and stop trying to hit everything in the air.  He needs to be a high average guy, not a high slugging guy.  What has also been said here is that as a second baseman, Burke had the worse footwork anyone had ever seen in a middle infielder come through the ranks.  He routinely made plays harder than they should've been due to bad footwork causing bad throws to first.  He's gotten better, but he doesn't have the arm to make up for bad footword, so he needs to continue to improve.  He has tons more range than Biggio, about the same arm, but not as good footwork as the old man.  Truth be told, Brooks Conrad is a better second baseman and has more power to his game.  Eric Bruntlett is a better athlete than both of those guys and has a much better feel for middle infield play than Burke (his old double play partner in AA).

But somehow Burke gets more chances to prove himself as an everyday player because as odd as he looks trying to play this game, he's still a grinder who goes hard and somehow gets the job done. At least when hitting a baseball.  Will he be a superstar?  Probably not in his career.  Will he be similar to Scrap Iron?  He can come close, probably with far less power.

In short, he's a nice player, but hardly anyone to gush over nor feel he is untouchable in a trade.  For Jennings?  All depends at this point, but I wouldn't do that deal straight up.  I'd ask for more from the Rockies and also ask Jason about a contract extention because right now, it's Pettitte's money we're talking about here, so some semblance of being reasonable needs to come into play.

[JackAstro]

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why dont you bring your own opinions to the arguement rather than just crying about anyone who disagrees with you. all you do is make stupid jokes, try adding something to this baseball discussion.

Oh, shut the fuck up already. Honestly. I'd rather read a million more of Alkie's stupid jokes than read one more of your goddamn ridiculous posts where you criticize people's spelling while ignoring the shift and apostrophe keys entirely. You are absolutely fucking killing me. Quit ruining our happy, fun little diversion, and go amaze some other board with your fanfuckingtastical ability to copy and paste stat lines.

P.S. - Arguing about whether to expect more power from Taveras or Burke is like arguing over the towing capacity of a 93 Geo Metro versus an 85 Corolla hatchback. Who gives a shit?

[Arky Vaughan]

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All this talk about Burke and slugging is very uneasy reading.  It is this sort of thinking on the young man that gets him a spot in the lineup right smack dab in the middle, right around sixth or so.

And sorely misused as a baseball player too.  I wish Scrap Iron would stop trying to make the young man out to be anything but a line drive hitter that he should be.  Being in a run producing role in the lineup and hitting at the MMPUS tends to put an upper cut in a swing for Burke and he becomes very useless at that point.

I'd rather see the good Chris Burke hitting solid line drives for this team and using that approach to hitting for an entire year.  Enough with this talk about slugging and 15+ homeruns already!

Slugging percentage doesn't just equal home runs. Line drives into the gaps of a big center field can lead to doubles, which raise slugging percentage. It's not necessarily the case that anyone talking about Burke's slugging percentage thinks he should be swinging from his heels for the fences. Biggio slugged over .500 a couple of times thanks largely to his ability to rope doubles into the gaps and his hustle on the basepaths.

[UpTooLate]

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P.S. - Arguing about whether to expect more power from Taveras or Burke is like arguing over the towing capacity of a 93 Geo Metro versus an 85 Corolla hatchback. Who gives a shit?

Outstanding.

[Arky Vaughan]

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Arguing about whether to expect more power from Taveras or Burke is like arguing over the towing capacity of a 93 Geo Metro versus an 85 Corolla hatchback. Who gives a shit?

In their careers, 14% of Taveras' hits have gone for extra bases, while 33% of Burke's hits have gone for extra bases. (The National League average for non-pitchers in 2006 was 35%.) I think that's a significant difference, and one worth noting in a comparison of the two.

It is not, of course, dispositive of which is the more valuable player to the Astros. That's a determination made according to, among other things, their skills at the plate, on the basepaths, in the field, the positions they play, their ages and years of club control, their prospective salaries, which one fits better into the club's plans, which one better addresses the club's needs and which one the club thinks has more upside.

But I don't think it's accurate to pretend that they're more or less indistinguishable in the power category.

[stubbyc]

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So exactly how wide IS that brush of yours any way?  Worthless?  I don't think I heard any one say such a thing.  What has been said here regularily though is this: Burke has a bad arm for shortstop and not that great an instinct to play the position like another rag arm guy like Eckstein.  If you have a suspect arm, you make up for it with proper positioning and a keen know how on how to cheat at the position.  Burke relies on quickness and range to get him to a ball, so he reacts later to a ball than Eckstein and thus he cannot perform at short regularily like David Eck.

The general opinion on this board is that Chris Burke is not a very good baseball player regardless of performance. Early in the season when he was hitting extremely well he got almost no credit.

As far as his ability at SS....he's obviously below average. Eckstein does a good job of getting his whole body in front of his throws and plays the position better than Burke. I don't think Burke is an option at short. I just think its unfair the shit he takes when he has to play out of position.

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What has also been said about Burke is that all the pronouncements of a 30 homerun guy (when he wa s a rookie on the team) was well overblown.  Burke's best bet to help the team is to take a line drive approach to the plate and stop trying to hit everything in the air.  He needs to be a high average guy, not a high slugging guy.

I think Burke's performance offensively last year was acceptable. He hit .276 last year with decent power. He was an efficient base stealer too.

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What has also been said here is that as a second baseman, Burke had the worse footwork anyone had ever seen in a middle infielder come through the ranks.  He routinely made plays harder than they should've been due to bad footwork causing bad throws to first.  He's gotten better, but he doesn't have the arm to make up for bad footword, so he needs to continue to improve.  He has tons more range than Biggio, about the same arm, but not as good footwork as the old man.  Truth be told, Brooks Conrad is a better second baseman and has more power to his game.  Eric Bruntlett is a better athlete than both of those guys and has a much better feel for middle infield play than Burke (his old double play partner in AA).

Yet the Astros organization has decided that Burke is a much better option than Conrad or Bruntlett. Burke's footwork is noticably poor, but at the same time his arm is not comparable to Biggio's. He turns DP's that Biggio just cannot at this stage of his career.

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But somehow Burke gets more chances to prove himself as an everyday player because as odd as he looks trying to play this game, he's still a grinder who goes hard and somehow gets the job done. At least when hitting a baseball.  Will he be a superstar?  Probably not in his career.  Will he be similar to Scrap Iron?  He can come close, probably with far less power.

Burke probably got his chance in '05 because of his '04 season at New Orleans. Burke made considerable strides in '04 but since he wasn't in RR it doesn't seem like many of the people on here saw him play. He hit .315 with 16 homers and stole 37 bases. He was also voted as the best defensive 2b in the league that year by the managers. This is not the same Burke that was in RR. JD has made mention several times of how Burke has really surprised scouts with his power at times. He hit one into Big Mac Land in St. Louis this year and a shot to dead center in Pittsburgh this year.

Before the '05 season on here some news source presented the possibility of Burke in CF. That was laughed at mercilessly on here. Burke has outperformed all expectations of him continuously.

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In short, he's a nice player, but hardly anyone to gush over nor feel he is untouchable in a trade.  For Jennings?  All depends at this point, but I wouldn't do that deal straight up.  I'd ask for more from the Rockies and also ask Jason about a contract extention because right now, it's Pettitte's money we're talking about here, so some semblance of being reasonable needs to come into play.

I don't think he's untouchable and I don't think he's going to be a great player. He's probably not capable of playing shortstop and he's probably not capable of being a full time CF. He has shown that he's probably going to be a decent ML hitter...at least enough to be a solid everyday 2b.

My original point was that 4 years of Burke (especially with Biggio's possible retirement next year) is worth more than 1 year of Jennings at 5.5 million. I do think Jennings would be best served to get out of Colorado (as would anyone) and that he is an intriguing possibility.

[stubbyc]

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Arguing about whether to expect more power from Taveras or Burke is like arguing over the towing capacity of a 93 Geo Metro versus an 85 Corolla hatchback. Who gives a shit?

In their careers, 14% of Taveras' hits have gone for extra bases, while 33% of Burke's hits have gone for extra bases. (The National League average for non-pitchers in 2006 was 35%.) I think that's a significant difference, and one worth noting in a comparison of the two.

It is not, of course, dispositive of which is the more valuable player to the Astros. That's a determination made according to, among other things, their skills at the plate, on the basepaths, in the field, the positions they play, their ages and years of club control, their prospective salaries, which one fits better into the club's plans, which one better addresses the club's needs and which one the club thinks has more upside.

But I don't think it's accurate to pretend that they're more or less indistinguishable in the power category.

Agreed completely. Excellent post.

[VirtualBob]

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why dont you bring your own opinions to the arguement rather than just crying about anyone who disagrees with you. all you do is make stupid jokes, try adding something to this baseball discussion.

It seems that you have cornered the market on stupid with this post, so that should address at least part of your complaint.  As for the rest of it, we were like this before you showed up and we'll be like this after you're gone.  And none of us are crying about it.

[MikeyBoy]

stubby/arkie - I'm not going to split statistical hairs with you over the difference between Burke and Taveras' slugging. In my opinion, both are (or should be) line drive hitters with similar power potential that are trying to do two different things at the plate right now, Burke looks to pull the ball more than Willy, Willy tries to make contact, hit the ball up the middle and rarely turns on a pitch. I still think that there is not a lot of difference in their power, you obviously disagree and are just as likely to be right as I am, so let's move on. My original point was directed towards shitburger and his OBP comments concerning Willy/CB.

[JimR]

line drive doubles and triples are not "power." bloop doubles b/c of speed are not "power."those stats do not prove what you are using them for.

[toddthebod]

 

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it's Pettitte's money we're talking about here, so some semblance of being reasonable needs to come into play  

Why is it Pettitte's money as opposed to say Woody Williams' money or Randy Wolf's money?  At $5.5 million, he's probably cheaper than any good free agent the Astros could find.

If the Astros trade for Jennings and Pettitte wants to come back, the money would seem to be there.

[Arky Vaughan]

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line drive doubles and triples are not "power." bloop doubles b/c of speed are not "power."those stats do not prove what you are using them for.

So what's the difference between a hitter whose hits are for extra bases twice as often as another hitter's? If it's not power, what do you call it? If you want to call it something else, fine -- power, doubleosity, extrabasehittability, gap-and-runopia. Whatever you call it, that difference exists, and it's counterfactual to insist otherwise.

If you had only Burke and Taveras on the bench, and you needed an extra-base hit (not necessarily a home run), who would you send up?

[S.P. Rodriguez]

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it's Pettitte's money we're talking about here, so some semblance of being reasonable needs to come into play  

Why is it Pettitte's money as opposed to say Woody Williams' money or Randy Wolf's money?  At $5.5 million, he's probably cheaper than any good free agent the Astros could find.

If the Astros trade for Jennings and Pettitte wants to come back, the money would seem to be there.

 News on Jennings'

Although, in that article, there are hints that he lives in Texas (played at Baylor), but no word of whether it's a Ranch, just outside Houston, or even if he cares about playing close to his home.  

Seriously, they are talking Pettitte level money for a guy who's K/BB ratio is 1.46, for his career.  This guy is not worth 10mil/yr.  If Jennings gets that, Pettitte deserves $14mil.

[Arky Vaughan]

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stubby/arkie - I'm not going to split statistical hairs with you over the difference between Burke and Taveras' slugging. In my opinion, both are (or should be) line drive hitters with similar power potential that are trying to do two different things at the plate right now, Burke looks to pull the ball more than Willy, Willy tries to make contact, hit the ball up the middle and rarely turns on a pitch. I still think that there is not a lot of difference in their power, you obviously disagree and are just as likely to be right as I am, so let's move on. My original point was directed towards shitburger and his OBP comments concerning Willy/CB.

Taveras gets a significant number of hits on groundballs to the infield. As fast as Burke is, he's not as fast as Taveras, and he's going to have to hit a lot more solid line drives than Taveras to get the same batting average. Taveras is what I'd call a singles hitter -- Burke is more than a singles hitter -- he gets extra-base hits about at the league average, about twice as often as Taveras. I don't think they're particularly similar in this regard.

If Taveras did hit line drives and shoot the gaps as often as Burke, he'd be even more effective than Burke, because Taveras would be standing on third base on a lot of hits that would leave Burke standing on second base. With Burke's "power," or whatever you want to call it, Taveras could lead the league in triples.

[Arky Vaughan]

Compare their hit charts:

The Link

The Link

[JimR]

you do not understand what "power" is because there is no number attached to it.

[Arky Vaughan]

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you do not understand what "power" is because there is no number attached to it.

No, I don't understand what you call the difference between a hitter who gets mostly singles and a hitter who gets extra-base hits sometimes. It has nothing to do with numbers. It has to do with words.

[No? in Austin]

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The general opinion on this board is that Chris Burke is not a very good baseball player regardless of performance.

Simply put: That is one big LIE and you know it.

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Early in the season when he was hitting extremely well he got almost no credit.

You need to read a whole lot more and perhaps that will lead to posting a whole lot less if all you want to do is talk about *other* posters in this forum instead of real baseball and/or Astros baseball.  Your attempt to talk about Chris Burke is more about slamming posters in this forum and it is very weak indeed.

In fact, it's about lying now.

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As far as his ability at SS....he's obviously below average. Eckstein does a good job of getting his whole body in front of his throws and plays the position better than Burke. I don't think Burke is an option at short. I just think its unfair the shit he takes when he has to play out of position.

He takes no shit from anyone.  I don't know how many times we have to explain this over and over and over in here about the opinions expressed in here: it is about *winning* baseball, not about fantasy baseball, what I think, you think, how much you love or hate Brad Ausmus, Chris Burke or Adam Everett or even Jason Lane or MoBerg.  Nothing in here is about giving them shit as much as it is about maximizing the chances of the Astros winning on the field.  It is similar to saying Craig Biggio should never go back to playing catcher for this team.  It is not meant as a slam on the old man nor meant to demean him in any way shape or form.  It is what it is: the truth about Biggio's ability to play a position to either help or hurt the chances of *winning*.  You can insert centerfield in that last statement about Biggio as well if you'd like.

Damn, some of you people are just plain ignorant!

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I think Burke's performance offensively last year was acceptable. He hit .276 last year with decent power. He was an efficient base stealer too.

I could care less about power from Burke.  I think he is a fine player if used correctly and some fans just want him to be something he is not.

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Yet the Astros organization has decided that Burke is a much better option than Conrad or Bruntlett.

Not if you talk to any Astros scouts.  You'd get a totally different opinion.  What you have to factor in with Burke is his first round status and his ability to just plain grind his way through.  Is he better than Bruntlett and Conrad?  Not in terms of being a pure middle infielder.  Will he hustle his arse off to make himself known?  Youbetcha!  But if you watch Bruntlett and Conrad play for any extended period of time, you'd see that they can do the job better than Burke day in and day out, however they're both not first round draft picks either.

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Burke's footwork is noticably poor, but at the same time his arm is not comparable to Biggio's. He turns DP's that Biggio just cannot at this stage of his career.

His arm is what it is.  However, you must realize that turning a double play is not about arm speed as much as making the turn quickly and accurately.  That is about proper mechanics and Burke has made more strides in that area than gaining some arm strength all of a sudden.

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Burke probably got his chance in '05 because of his '04 season at New Orleans. Burke made considerable strides in '04 but since he wasn't in RR it doesn't seem like many of the people on here saw him play. He hit .315 with 16 homers and stole 37 bases.

My understanding about those homerun numbers is that Burke got some of those on Northwestern swings through the PCL.  Fields like those in Colorado, Iowa and Washington are either high altitude or small parks.  You have to judge numbers accordingly.  Are you "expecting" Burke to be a homerun hitter in the majors?  See, this is where I have a huge misgiving about Burke if that is suppose to be his game.  I've seen enough of his play in the majors and minors to say unequivically that he would be asked to do more than he is capable of and it would be a mistake on the Astros to do so.

Shades of the rookie years of Terry Puhl!

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He was also voted as the best defensive 2b in the league that year by the managers. This is not the same Burke that was in RR. JD has made mention several times of how Burke has really surprised scouts with his power at times. He hit one into Big Mac Land in St. Louis this year and a shot to dead center in Pittsburgh this year.

On level swings where he wasn't trying to hit homeruns.  Do you understand the difference?

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Before the '05 season on here some news source presented the possibility of Burke in CF. That was laughed at mercilessly on here. Burke has outperformed all expectations of him continuously

Yes, he's a grinder and a lot like Phil Garner.  But keep a level head about him and you'll be a lot better off.  Unless he's on your fantasy baseball team and then by all means go talk to other FBG's about how cool it will be when Burky gets to hit all those homeruns for ya!

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I don't think he's untouchable and I don't think he's going to be a great player. He's probably not capable of playing shortstop and he's probably not capable of being a full time CF. He has shown that he's probably going to be a decent ML hitter...at least enough to be a solid everyday 2b.

You just described a replaceable part or what is commonly known as a tradeable commodity in baseball.

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My original point was that 4 years of Burke (especially with Biggio's possible retirement next year) is worth more than 1 year of Jennings at 5.5 million. I do think Jennings would be best served to get out of Colorado (as would anyone) and that he is an intriguing possibility.

The point on Jennings is well taken and duly noted.  However it is not what you lose in Burke but what you gain in Jennings that should be the driver for that deal.

[JackAstro]

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Arguing about whether to expect more power from Taveras or Burke is like arguing over the towing capacity of a 93 Geo Metro versus an 85 Corolla hatchback. Who gives a shit?

In their careers, 14% of Taveras' hits have gone for extra bases, while 33% of Burke's hits have gone for extra bases. (The National League average for non-pitchers in 2006 was 35%.) I think that's a significant difference, and one worth noting in a comparison of the two.

It is not, of course, dispositive of which is the more valuable player to the Astros. That's a determination made according to, among other things, their skills at the plate, on the basepaths, in the field, the positions they play, their ages and years of club control, their prospective salaries, which one fits better into the club's plans, which one better addresses the club's needs and which one the club thinks has more upside.

But I don't think it's accurate to pretend that they're more or less indistinguishable in the power category.

I thoroughly agree. I don't think they're in any way indistinguishable, I just think it's the entirely wrong place to be focusing when comparing their worth to the club. My point is that there is certainly a measurably difference in their power (such as it is), and it's one that has relatively little to do with why the Astros pay them to play baseball.

[No? in Austin]

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you do not understand what "power" is because there is no number attached to it.

No, I don't understand what you call the difference between a hitter who gets mostly singles and a hitter who gets extra-base hits sometimes. It has nothing to do with numbers. It has to do with words.

Because when you say "power" to those of us who tend to observe more than read stats, we see Dave Kingman types.  Or Greg Luzinski.  Sorry about that being true, but it brings about a visual of a guy swinging from his heels and not necessarily a gap hitter for a ton of doubles.

So when you read something from me, for instance... because your response was to me, you have to understand what context I'm using.  It is not entirely the same context you provide back to me.  It is very different indeed.

And by the way, I included "15 + homeruns" in that statement in order to qualify what I was saying in terms of slugging (and the implied "power" game) for Burke.  I in no way shape or form would want to see Burke trying to swing like a Jeff Bagwell in his hey day.  Burke is better served with the level contact swing he used in '06.  It was a thing of beauty.

[Browneye]

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it's Pettitte's money we're talking about here, so some semblance of being reasonable needs to come into play  

Why is it Pettitte's money as opposed to say Woody Williams' money or Randy Wolf's money?  At $5.5 million, he's probably cheaper than any good free agent the Astros could find.

If the Astros trade for Jennings and Pettitte wants to come back, the money would seem to be there.

 News on Jennings'

Although, in that article, there are hints that he lives in Texas (played at Baylor), but no word of whether it's a Ranch, just outside Houston, or even if he cares about playing close to his home.  

Seriously, they are talking Pettitte level money for a guy who's K/BB ratio is 1.46, for his career.  This guy is not worth 10mil/yr.  If Jennings gets that, Pettitte deserves $14mil.

But he pitches in Denver and does well. I don't have any stats to back this up, but doesn't he pitch better on the road. Hell, the Redsox are betting the farm on a guy who has not pitched in the states yet and with the market the way it is, the price may be a brutal reality in this years game.

[Arky Vaughan]

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Because when you say "power" to those of us who tend to observe more than read stats, we see Dave Kingman types.  Or Greg Luzinski.  Sorry about that being true, but it brings about a visual of a guy swinging from his heels and not necessarily a gap hitter for a ton of doubles.

Whether or not the term "power" is reserved for the Dave Kingmans or Greg Luzinskis has nothing to do with stats. Forget I mentioned the stats. Without looking at the stats, would you say that a player who ropes the ball into the gaps sometimes has more power than someone who makes a living outrunning groundballs in the infield? Between someone who hits a double, triple or homer every blue moon and someone who does it more often, who has more power?

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So when you read something from me, for instance... because your response was to me, you have to understand what context I'm using.  It is not entirely the same context you provide back to me.  It is very different indeed.

So you and Jim have a different context, but I think I explained in pretty straightforward terms what I meant. If the term "power" is just reserved for home run hitters, then what do you call the difference I've described above? I've asked Jim what he calls it, but he just tells me I don't understand because there aren't stats involved. So, tell me, in your context, what do you call the difference between a singles hitter and a doubles hitter, if not power?

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And by the way, I included "15 + homeruns" in that statement in order to qualify what I was saying in terms of slugging (and the implied "power" game) for Burke.  I in no way shape or form would want to see Burke trying to swing like a Jeff Bagwell in his hey day.  Burke is better served with the level contact swing he used in '06.  It was a thing of beauty.

I agree with you that I would far rather see Burke trying to stroke line drives than trying to swing for the fences. Trying to pull the ball into the Crawford Boxes is going to result in a lot of flyouts that he might avoid if he just tried to drive the ball to all parts of the field.

[JimR]

stop it, Arky, please.

this line by line refutation attempt has been done before, and it is just as irritating now.

[Arky Vaughan]

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stop it, Arky, please.

this line by line refutation attempt has been done before, and it is just as irritating now.

Does Chris Burke have more power than Willy Taveras?

[S.P. Rodriguez]

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it's Pettitte's money we're talking about here, so some semblance of being reasonable needs to come into play  

Why is it Pettitte's money as opposed to say Woody Williams' money or Randy Wolf's money?  At $5.5 million, he's probably cheaper than any good free agent the Astros could find.

If the Astros trade for Jennings and Pettitte wants to come back, the money would seem to be there.

 News on Jennings'

Although, in that article, there are hints that he lives in Texas (played at Baylor), but no word of whether it's a Ranch, just outside Houston, or even if he cares about playing close to his home.  

Seriously, they are talking Pettitte level money for a guy who's K/BB ratio is 1.46, for his career.  This guy is not worth 10mil/yr.  If Jennings gets that, Pettitte deserves $14mil.

But he pitches in Denver and does well. I don't have any stats to back this up, but doesn't he pitch better on the road. Hell, the Redsox are betting the farm on a guy who has not pitched in the states yet and with the market the way it is, the price may be a brutal reality in this years game.

Absent of seeing the difference in person, I can only provide this  view.   That doesn't leave a lasting impression, for me at least.  We'll see what the Astros do but I'd hate to see Houston give up a contributing player like Burke or Taveras to land Jennings, only to have to give him 8-10mil/yr when I suspect Sampson may be just as effective, if given the chance, and at a fraction of the price.  If Houston makes this move, they have to see something beyond his STATS during his time in Colorado.  I guess what really turns me off is the guy averages almost 3 walks per start, lasts about 6 2/3 inning per start (which is good), and averages about 4k's per start.  Those are not bad numbers but they sure aren't worth 10mil/yr.  He's the innings eater the Astros need but at a very hefty price tag.

[Arky Vaughan]

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Absent of seeing the difference in person, I can only provide this  view.   That doesn't leave a lasting impression, for me at least.  We'll see what the Astros do but I'd hate to see Houston give up a contributing player like Burke or Taveras to land Jennings, only to have to give him 8-10mil/yr when I suspect Sampson may be just as effective, if given the chance, and at a fraction of the price.  If Houston makes this move, they have to see something beyond his STATS during his time in Colorado.  I guess what really turns me off is the guy averages almost 3 walks per start, lasts about 6 2/3 inning per start (which is good), and averages about 4k's per start.  Those are not bad numbers but they sure aren't worth 10mil/yr.  He's the innings eater the Astros need but at a very hefty price tag.

That strikeout-to-walk ratio doesn't bode particularly well for his long-term prospects.

[Browneye]

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Absent of seeing the difference in person, I can only provide this  view.   That doesn't leave a lasting impression, for me at least.  We'll see what the Astros do but I'd hate to see Houston give up a contributing player like Burke or Taveras to land Jennings, only to have to give him 8-10mil/yr when I suspect Sampson may be just as effective, if given the chance, and at a fraction of the price.  If Houston makes this move, they have to see something beyond his STATS during his time in Colorado.  I guess what really turns me off is the guy averages almost 3 walks per start, lasts about 6 2/3 inning per start (which is good), and averages about 4k's per start.  Those are not bad numbers but they sure aren't worth 10mil/yr.  He's the innings eater the Astros need but at a very hefty price tag.

Thanks, perhaps your right... I think that with todays new market and a crazy demand for SP's, ie Matsuzaka, we are going to see a huge overspending for these types (see Hampton). Thats the real reason I think Pettitte is holding out. He is waiting out the market and his agents, the Clemens and Hendricks brothers, are telling him just that.

[Limey]

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Last I heard JimR trusted his stuff better than Wandy.

And Albers is likely ahead of Wandy after his meltdown this year too.

Most mammals are likely ahead of Wandy.

This is all predicated on the very bold assumption that Wandy has stuff that is trustworthy.

[pravata]

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Last I heard JimR trusted his stuff better than Wandy.

And Albers is likely ahead of Wandy after his meltdown this year too.

Most mammals are likely ahead of Wandy.

This is all predicated on the very bold assumption that Wandy has stuff that is trustworthy.

Around Wandy's stuff, I watch my wallet.

[Arky Vaughan]

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This is all predicated on the very bold assumption that Wandy has stuff that is trustworthy.

Garner must chug Maloxx before every Wandy start.

[No? in Austin]

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Whether or not the term "power" is reserved for the Dave Kingmans or Greg Luzinskis has nothing to do with stats. Forget I mentioned the stats. Without looking at the stats, would you say that a player who ropes the ball into the gaps sometimes has more power than someone who makes a living outrunning groundballs in the infield? Between someone who hits a double, triple or homer every blue moon and someone who does it more often, who has more power?

Would you accept my answer as: I don?t give a damn!
You see, this all started when you replied to *me* in the following:

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All this talk about Burke and slugging is very uneasy reading. It is this sort of thinking on the young man that gets him a spot in the lineup right smack dab in the middle, right around sixth or so.

And sorely misused as a baseball player too. I wish Scrap Iron would stop trying to make the young man out to be anything but a line drive hitter that he should be. Being in a run producing role in the lineup and hitting at the MMPUS tends to put an upper cut in a swing for Burke and he becomes very useless at that point.

I'd rather see the good Chris Burke hitting solid line drives for this team and using that approach to hitting for an entire year. Enough with this talk about slugging and 15+ homeruns already!

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Slugging percentage doesn't just equal home runs. Line drives into the gaps of a big center field can lead to doubles, which raise slugging percentage. It's not necessarily the case that anyone talking about Burke's slugging percentage thinks he should be swinging from his heels for the fences. Biggio slugged over .500 a couple of times thanks largely to his ability to rope doubles into the gaps and his hustle on the basepaths.

Jim jumped in before I could response because he understood the *implied* meaning in what I was saying.  Power hitter versus line drive hitter and approach therein.  It is a very simple concept that frankly you?re making into a complex one.  I replied to pravata very specifically about what I think Burke is more prone to do and how he should be used.   If power hitting and run producer is supposed to be his forte (and I fail to see how that could be so), hitting him sixth in the lineup is very appropriate.  It did wonders for Morgan Ensberg.  But I?ll say it again: all this talk about slugging and 15+ homeruns is uneasy for me to read because that expectation is once again being dumped on Burke that should not be there.  IMHO of course.  I *saw* what he did well in 2006.  I know he can help the Houston Astros win in 2007.  So I welcome you putting your stats away for just a minute and within that context of ?helping the Astros win?, I would say that if Burke is a top of the lineup or bottom of the lineup hitter spraying line drives all around the park, doubles or singles or triples doesn?t matter to me? only his approach of contact and level swing? then he?s helping the team win.  15+ homeruns and slugging in *THAT* context works for me, because I don?t give a damn if you call it slugging or not? quite frankly.  Having said that, a traditional *approach* to hitting for power (slugging and 15+ homeruns) is to take a Bagwellian approach to the plate and not get cheated.  Heck, it is what frustrates many with MoBerg?s passive approach in the spots in the lineup he is slotted in? most especially the cleanup spot.  Do I want to see Burke headed that way?  Hell no, I don?t? hence why I said what I said.
Hopefully given what I just told you, you can stop asking me questions about something I care very little about.

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So you and Jim have a different context, but I think I explained in pretty straightforward terms what I meant. If the term "power" is just reserved for home run hitters, then what do you call the difference I've described above? I've asked Jim what he calls it, but he just tells me I don't understand because there aren't stats involved. So, tell me, in your context, what do you call the difference between a singles hitter and a doubles hitter, if not power?

Answer: Who cares! Is THAT clear now?  We?re talking about approach, not the results specifically.  You are fixated on the results because stats tend to speak clearly to that.

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I agree with you that I would far rather see Burke trying to stroke line drives than trying to swing for the fences. Trying to pull the ball into the Crawford Boxes is going to result in a lot of flyouts that he might avoid if he just tried to drive the ball to all parts of the field.

Thanks, so stop asking questions about the *other* non-essential stuff I care very little to nothing about.  Stats, to me, speak to results of an approach.  I want to know about the approach, what the hitter was asked to do in the lineup, et. al. for me to understand if a winning baseball team proposition was in place.  All the meta-data baseball stuff is for others and not me.

Leave me out.

[Arky Vaughan]

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Leave me out.

Noe, if Taveras and Burke took the exact same approach to hitting, would the results be the same for both of them?

[pravata]

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...I replied to pravata very specifically about what I think Burke is more prone to do and how he should be used.  ...

I took your reply to mean that you understood very clearly that while many people value Ensberg for something that really didn't help the team, Burke is being touted for his SLG % which puts him out of place as well.  Previous posters suggested, seriously as far as I can tell, that Burke regularly hit 6th or even 5th.  That is getting ridiculous.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

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...I replied to pravata very specifically about what I think Burke is more prone to do and how he should be used.  ...

I took your reply to mean that you understood very clearly that while many people value Ensberg for something that really didn't help the team, Burke is being touted for his SLG % which puts him out of place as well.  Previous posters suggested, seriously as far as I can tell, that Burke regularly hit 6th or even 5th.  That is getting ridiculous.

When you state it in that manner (Burke a slugger and Ensberg a On-Base machine) it does seem incredibly absurd.   Too bad they can't trade approaches (Ensberg trying to pull/hammer everything and Burke sitting on his favorite pitch or take a walk if he doesn't see it).  It might actually make for 2 very productive players.  Hmmm... interesting....

[stubbyc]

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stop it, Arky, please.

this line by line refutation attempt has been done before, and it is just as irritating now.

You are so incredibly full of shit it's unbelievable. Are you so blind that you cannot fucking see what the rest of the fucking world can see. Chris Burke has more power than Willy Taveras. Get your head out of your fucking ass.

[JimR]

Noe, please ignore this. he does not understand. he thinks slugging%=power.

he thinks doubles=power.

he thinks extra bases=power.

hence, the incessant percentages on parade.

let him think it, and perhaps he'll move on to something else.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

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Absent of seeing the difference in person, I can only provide this  view.   That doesn't leave a lasting impression, for me at least.  We'll see what the Astros do but I'd hate to see Houston give up a contributing player like Burke or Taveras to land Jennings, only to have to give him 8-10mil/yr when I suspect Sampson may be just as effective, if given the chance, and at a fraction of the price.  If Houston makes this move, they have to see something beyond his STATS during his time in Colorado.  I guess what really turns me off is the guy averages almost 3 walks per start, lasts about 6 2/3 inning per start (which is good), and averages about 4k's per start.  Those are not bad numbers but they sure aren't worth 10mil/yr.  He's the innings eater the Astros need but at a very hefty price tag.

That strikeout-to-walk ratio doesn't bode particularly well for his long-term prospects.

That's what I was thinking.  To be honest, he looks like a really good middle reliever/spot starter.  Again, that's not a role without value, just not sure if the Astros can afford to fill that role at 10mil/yr, assuming that's the going rate.

[jaklewein]

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stop it, Arky, please.

this line by line refutation attempt has been done before, and it is just as irritating now.

You are so incredibly full of shit it's unbelievable. Are you so blind that you cannot fucking see what the rest of the fucking world can see. Chris Burke has more power than Willy Taveras. Get your head out of your fucking ass.

I don't know about that. I can't remember where Willy hit it, but I remember his only homerun in 2006.  I remember thinking, "Damn, that was a shot.  I had no idea he had that much power."  Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure it went further than any Burke homer I've ever seen.

[stubbyc]

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Simply put: That is one big LIE and you know it.

Nope. Do a search of Burke on here with a user search of the popes. See what you come up with.

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You need to read a whole lot more and perhaps that will lead to posting a whole lot less if all you want to do is talk about *other* posters in this forum instead of real baseball and/or Astros baseball.  Your attempt to talk about Chris Burke is more about slamming posters in this forum and it is very weak indeed.

Yea it does. The same bullshit came up that always comes up. A remark was made that "Duh we trade Chris Burke for that" just like last year "Duh we trade Chris Burke for JC Romero. What's the hold up?" That would look really good right about now with JC in line for a minor league deal this offseason.

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He takes no shit from anyone.  I don't know how many times we have to explain this over and over and over in here about the opinions expressed in here: it is about *winning* baseball, not about fantasy baseball, what I think, you think, how much you love or hate Brad Ausmus, Chris Burke or Adam Everett or even Jason Lane or MoBerg.  Nothing in here is about giving them shit as much as it is about maximizing the chances of the Astros winning on the field.  It is similar to saying Craig Biggio should never go back to playing catcher for this team.  It is not meant as a slam on the old man nor meant to demean him in any way shape or form.  It is what it is: the truth about Biggio's ability to play a position to either help or hurt the chances of *winning*.  You can insert centerfield in that last statement about Biggio as well if you'd like.

What the fuck does fantasy baseball have to do with anything? Who's talking about fantasy baseball?

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Damn, some of you people are just plain ignorant!

If this is ignorant, I'm not sure what you would call comparing Willy Taveras' power to Chris Burke.

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Not if you talk to any Astros scouts.  You'd get a totally different opinion.  What you have to factor in with Burke is his first round status and his ability to just plain grind his way through.  Is he better than Bruntlett and Conrad?  Not in terms of being a pure middle infielder.  Will he hustle his arse off to make himself known?  Youbetcha!  But if you watch Bruntlett and Conrad play for any extended period of time, you'd see that they can do the job better than Burke day in and day out, however they're both not first round draft picks either.

Fine, let me rephrase that. The members high up in the front office see Burke as the future 2b. The members high up in the front offices of other teams are actively trying to trade for him. No one cared enough about Conrad to take him in the Rule V draft the past 2 years.

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My understanding about those homerun numbers is that Burke got some of those on Northwestern swings through the PCL.  Fields like those in Colorado, Iowa and Washington are either high altitude or small parks.  You have to judge numbers accordingly.  Are you "expecting" Burke to be a homerun hitter in the majors?  See, this is where I have a huge misgiving about Burke if that is suppose to be his game.  I've seen enough of his play in the majors and minors to say unequivically that he would be asked to do more than he is capable of and it would be a mistake on the Astros to do so.

A jump from 3 homers to 16 homers is still a noticeable jump regardless of atmosphere. Larry Dierker mentioned last year that when they first drafted Burke they brought him to MMP for BP. He could barely get them into the Crawford Boxes. He has shown the ability in the last few years to hit them out to dead center and hit the occasional moonshot. I don't expect to be him a "power hitter" by your definition of power hitter.

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Yes, he's a grinder and a lot like Phil Garner.  But keep a level head about him and you'll be a lot better off.  Unless he's on your fantasy baseball team and then by all means go talk to other FBG's about how cool it will be when Burky gets to hit all those homeruns for ya!

What the hell are you talking about?

[VirtualBob]

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Damn, some of you people are just plain ignorant!

Ignorance is a choice; stupid is forever.

[stubbyc]

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Because when you say "power" to those of us who tend to observe more than read stats, we see Dave Kingman types.  Or Greg Luzinski.  Sorry about that being true, but it brings about a visual of a guy swinging from his heels and not necessarily a gap hitter for a ton of doubles.

So when you read something from me, for instance... because your response was to me, you have to understand what context I'm using.  It is not entirely the same context you provide back to me.  It is very different indeed.

And by the way, I included "15 + homeruns" in that statement in order to qualify what I was saying in terms of slugging (and the implied "power" game) for Burke.  I in no way shape or form would want to see Burke trying to swing like a Jeff Bagwell in his hey day.  Burke is better served with the level contact swing he used in '06.  It was a thing of beauty.

There is something in between Willy Taveras and Dave Kingman. This continued "Chris Burke is not a power hitter therefore he has no more power than Taveras" is completely absurd.

[stubbyc]

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Noe, please ignore this. he does not understand. he thinks slugging%=power.

he thinks doubles=power.

he thinks extra bases=power.

hence, the incessant percentages on parade.

let him think it, and perhaps he'll move on to something else.

How many Astros games did you catch last year Jim? 6? 7? Anyone who watched last year saw Burke more consistently drive the ball while Taveras struggled to hit it past the pitchers mound. You formed your opinion about Burke 3 years ago and are too stubborn to change your mind.

[Arky Vaughan]

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That's what I was thinking.  To be honest, he looks like a really good middle reliever/spot starter.  Again, that's not a role without value, just not sure if the Astros can afford to fill that role at 10mil/yr, assuming that's the going rate.

His numbers over the last three years don't suggest he's any better than a No. 4, maybe a No. 3 at his peak.

Split   ERA    H/9  HR/9  BB/9  SO/9
------------------------------------
Home   4.93  10.57  1.02  4.83  5.48
Away   4.50   8.87  0.83  3.54  6.29

[stubbyc]

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stop it, Arky, please.

this line by line refutation attempt has been done before, and it is just as irritating now.

You are so incredibly full of shit it's unbelievable. Are you so blind that you cannot fucking see what the rest of the fucking world can see. Chris Burke has more power than Willy Taveras. Get your head out of your fucking ass.

I don't know about that. I can't remember where Willy hit it, but I remember his only homerun in 2006.  I remember thinking, "Damn, that was a shot.  I had no idea he had that much power."  Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure it went further than any Burke homer I've ever seen.

It was his first career homer and I was surprised too. Burke has hit a few that have gone further than that though. Burke drives the ball much more consistently. Anyone who cares enough to watch an Astros game now and then knows that.

[JimR]

stubby, why don't you go somewhere and try to learn some baseball. you cannot talk to grownups until you do. now, run along.

[stubbyc]

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stubby, why don't you go somewhere and try to learn some baseball. you cannot talk to grownups until you do. now, run along.

Anything to avoid the subject. Jim, all this time I thought you were just too lazy to put together an argument. Now I just realize you are completely incapable.

[JimR]

"drive the ball" does not mean "power," you dumbass.

[Arky Vaughan]

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"drive the ball" does not mean "power," you dumbass.

So Burke drives the ball better than Taveras. If that's what you meant, then why didn't you just say so?

[stubbyc]

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"drive the ball" does not mean "power," you dumbass.

Oh sorry, I guess I don't understand your absurd definition of power. Only hitters like Lance Berkman have power, right? Everyone else has the same power as Willy Taveras.

[JimR]

run along, now. the grownups are talking.

[VirtualBob]

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"drive the ball" does not mean "power," you dumbass.

Oh sorry, I guess I don't understand your absurd definition of power. Only hitters like Lance Berkman have power, right? Everyone else has the same power as Willy Taveras.

When (or if) you notice that you are in too deep, feel free to drop the shovel.

[stubbyc]

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"drive the ball" does not mean "power," you dumbass.

Oh sorry, I guess I don't understand your absurd definition of power. Only hitters like Lance Berkman have power, right? Everyone else has the same power as Willy Taveras.

When (or if) you notice that you are in too deep, feel free to drop the shovel.

Thanks for that. Some of you will do everything but talk about the topic.

[jaklewein]

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stop it, Arky, please.

this line by line refutation attempt has been done before, and it is just as irritating now.

You are so incredibly full of shit it's unbelievable. Are you so blind that you cannot fucking see what the rest of the fucking world can see. Chris Burke has more power than Willy Taveras. Get your head out of your fucking ass.

I don't know about that. I can't remember where Willy hit it, but I remember his only homerun in 2006.  I remember thinking, "Damn, that was a shot.  I had no idea he had that much power."  Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure it went further than any Burke homer I've ever seen.

It was his first career homer and I was surprised too. Burke has hit a few that have gone further than that though. Burke drives the ball much more consistently. Anyone who cares enough to watch an Astros game now and then knows that.

"Who cares enough to watch an Astros game now and then"?  Who do you think you are?  Most everyone on this site watches every game they can.  I'm guessing there are quite a few that didn't miss but a handful of the games last year.  You're saying shit like that, then throwing out banter about last year's homer being Willy's first.  You gotta be kidding me?

[Arky Vaughan]

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I don't know about that. I can't remember where Willy hit it, but I remember his only homerun in 2006.  I remember thinking, "Damn, that was a shot.  I had no idea he had that much power."  Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure it went further than any Burke homer I've ever seen.

Look at the hit charts, though. On the whole, Burke hits the ball deeper than Taveras does. Whether that's due to approach or ability, the results are clear, unless someone simply chooses to ignore them.

The Link

[stubbyc]

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run along, now. the grownups are talking.

All I see is the old small bitter man making absurd comments then calling everyone who disagrees with him a dumbass.

[JimR]

no, actually i only called you a dumbass, and that is because you are.

wanna take a poll, dumbass?

[stubbyc]

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"Who cares enough to watch an Astros game now and then"?  Who do you think you are?  Most everyone on this site watches every game they can.  I'm guessing there are quite a few that didn't miss but a handful of the games last year.  You're saying shit like that, then throwing out banter about last year's homer being Willy's first.  You gotta be kidding me?

I thought your reference to Taveras' homer was the one off of Sosa last year. My reference into not watching games is to Jim R because it's clear that he doesn't get to see too many.

[pravata]

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stop it, Arky, please.

this line by line refutation attempt has been done before, and it is just as irritating now.

You are so incredibly full of shit it's unbelievable. Are you so blind that you cannot fucking see what the rest of the fucking world can see. Chris Burke has more power than Willy Taveras. Get your head out of your fucking ass.

I don't know about that. I can't remember where Willy hit it, but I remember his only homerun in 2006.  I remember thinking, "Damn, that was a shot.  I had no idea he had that much power."  Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure it went further than any Burke homer I've ever seen.

(From the Game Recap 8/5) Taveras was next, and on a 1-2 pitch, Pena challenged him with a heater. Willy turned on it and slammed it into the left field seats for his first homer of the season
The Link

He was sittin on the fastball.

[stubbyc]

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no, actually i only called you a dumbass, and that is because you are.

wanna take a poll, dumbass?

The truth isn't a popularity contest. I bet if we took a survey of 1000 Astros fans at least 900 of them would think you were a total dumbass.

[jaklewein]

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I don't know about that. I can't remember where Willy hit it, but I remember his only homerun in 2006.  I remember thinking, "Damn, that was a shot.  I had no idea he had that much power."  Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure it went further than any Burke homer I've ever seen.

Look at the hit charts, though. On the whole, Burke hits the ball deeper than Taveras does. Whether that's due to approach or ability, the results are clear, unless someone simply chooses to ignore them.

The Link

Ok, then I'm getting mixed up.  I thought we were talking about who can hit the ball the furthest, all things being equal.  In that case I'm telling you that I think Willy might take the cake.

[JimR]

hahahaha

keep it up, stubbs. most of my stalkers are a lot smarter than you.

[Arky Vaughan]

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Ok, then I'm getting mixed up.  I thought we were talking about who can hit the ball the furthest, all things being equal.  In that case I'm telling you that I think Willy might take the cake.

If Taveras ever decided to enter into that kind of competition, I hope Garner would use the Willie Mays Hayes push-up punishment to counteract it.

[stubbyc]

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hahahaha

keep it up, stubbs. most of my stalkers are a lot smarter than you.

Anyone who doesn't bow down at your feet is a dumbass. In the future I'll try to stay on topic even when you try to start one of your numerous pissing contests.

[JimR]

i am not participating in the inane discussion of whether Burke has more "power" than Taveras. what i said is that your percentages do not prove anything related to that issue.

[stubbyc]

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i am not participating in the inane discussion of whether Burke has more "power" than Taveras. what i said is that your percentages do not prove anything related to that issue.

Burke has the ability to hit the ball further than Taveras does consistently. Does that satisfy you? Is your mission of splitting hairs to an infinite degree finally over?

[MusicMan]

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I don't know about that. I can't remember where Willy hit it, but I remember his only homerun in 2006.  I remember thinking, "Damn, that was a shot.  I had no idea he had that much power."  Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure it went further than any Burke homer I've ever seen.

It was his first career homer and I was surprised too. Burke has hit a few that have gone further than that though. Burke drives the ball much more consistently. Anyone who cares enough to watch an Astros game now and then knows that.

This makes quite the interesting juxtaposition.

Willy Taveras, 2005: 3 HR

[stubbyc]

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This makes quite the interesting juxtaposition.

Willy Taveras, 2005: 3 HR

My post was a reference to the one he hit off of Sosa. The first one of his career. It was a shot that almost reached the train tracks.

The Link

[MusicMan]

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This makes quite the interesting juxtaposition.

Willy Taveras, 2005: 3 HR

My post was a reference to the one he hit off of Sosa. The first one of his career. It was a shot that almost reached the train tracks.

The Link

And yet he was clearly referencing 2006.

[stubbyc]

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And yet he was clearly referencing 2006.

You're right. I misread it. The one he hit off of Sosa went further than the one he hit off of Pena.

The Link

April 19. A shot.

[jaklewein]

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This makes quite the interesting juxtaposition.

Willy Taveras, 2005: 3 HR

My post was a reference to the one he hit off of Sosa. The first one of his career. It was a shot that almost reached the train tracks.

The Link

And yet he was clearly referencing 2006.

Exactly...and for some reason I'm thinking he hit it against ARZ in ARZ.  Damnit, now I gotta go check.

[Ty in Tampa]

You clearly need to get over your crush on Jim. He clearly isn't interested in you and you're clearly making yourself look like an ass.

[JimR]

i have no idea who can hit the ball further. is that "power" to you? how many tries in your HR Derby contest to determine this, stubbs???

neither has much power. both are line drive hitters. Burke has hit more HRs, but that is a function of their respective swings and approaches to hitting. if Willy took a different approach, i have no idea if he would hit as many HRs as Burke. i doubt Willy would beat him in your HR Derby because he does not try to hit the ball in the air.

ah, Ty, at least stalking me keeps him out of the bars and off of the playgrounds. he's smarter than all of us, you know.

[stubbyc]

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You clearly need to get over your crush on Jim. He clearly isn't interested in you and you're clearly making yourself look like an ass.

Jim clearly needs to stop flattering himself and insisting that everyone's stalking him. I posted in this thread long before Jim did.

[MusicMan]

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And yet he was clearly referencing 2006.

You're right. I misread it. The one he hit off of Sosa went further than the one he hit off of Pena.

The Link

April 19. A shot.

Larry Dierker, in that clip:

"I noticed in batting practice that he has a little more power than I thought."

His job is to get on base.  His job, more specifically, is to use his abilities to get on base the best way possible - which in his case, is to pound the ball oin the ground and beat it out.

It's a question of approach.

[stubbyc]

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i have no idea who can hit the ball further. is that "power" to you? how many tries in your HR Derby contest to determine this, stubbs???

neither has much power. both are line drive hitters. Burke has hit more HRs, but that is a function of their respective swings and approaches to hitting. if Willy took a different approach, i have no idea if he would hit as many HRs as Burke. i doubt Willy would beat him in your HR Derby because he does not try to hit the ball in the air.

ah, Ty, at least stalking me keeps him out of the bars and off of the playgrounds. he's smarter than all of us, you know.

Oh Jim. This line of argument from you has gone past absurd. You're really really reaching now. I don't even know what the hell you're trying to argue now. What the hell is power to you anyways if it's neither having extra base hits or consistently driving the ball? Do you even know what you think?

[Arky Vaughan]

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i am not participating in the inane discussion of whether Burke has more "power" than Taveras.

It is indeed inane, because it's obvious who has hit with more power since they came to the majors.

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what i said is that your percentages do not prove anything related to that issue.

Why not?

[Arky Vaughan]

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Larry Dierker, in that clip:

"I noticed in batting practice that he has a little more power than I thought."

His job is to get on base.  His job, more specifically, is to use his abilities to get on base the best way possible - which in his case, is to pound the ball oin the ground and beat it out.

It's a question of approach.

Solely so, however?  Is the difference between them only made up of their approaches?

[Ty in Tampa]

Jesus, man. When does it end?

[JimR]

i cannot understand it for you, stubbs. run along. good luck with your fantasy team.

it never ends, Ty. time for you and me to try other threads.

[MusicMan]

Quote:

Quote:
Larry Dierker, in that clip:

"I noticed in batting practice that he has a little more power than I thought."

His job is to get on base.  His job, more specifically, is to use his abilities to get on base the best way possible - which in his case, is to pound the ball oin the ground and beat it out.

It's a question of approach.

Solely so, however?  Is the difference between them only made up of their approaches?

Impossible to answer.  Do I think that if you told both players, "just hit the ball anywhere", that Burke would routinely hit it farther?  I do, but I don't think that has anything to do with the price of tea in China.

[Arky Vaughan]

Quote:
Jesus, man. When does it end?

Probably very soon, if Spack wanders along in here.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

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what i said is that your percentages do not prove anything related to that issue.

Why not?

I think I can answer that.  I think power is a reflection of how hard the hitter actually hits the ball.  It also incorporates the type of swing and intent of that at bat.  A good example of this is Huff, who hit a number of scorchers that were either snagged or produced a single.  That does not make him a singles hitter.  Both his swing and approach would best be described as power hitter's swing and approach.

As to why slg% is not actually representative of power is because it's a factor of bases collected with each hit.  Bases collected is not just a factor of how hard the ball is hit but where it is hit, how well the defense plays the hit, and the speed of the base runner.  An example I've often wondered about is Carlos Beltran.  He's a nice hitter, makes very solid contact frequently, producing some scorched hits of his own.  Yet, when he tries to hit homeruns, i.e. lofting the ball with a slight upper-cut swing, he struggles.  Where as, if he focuses on hitting line drive, a level swing plane, he still manages to hit quite a few homeruns but most of his extra base hits come from his speed, not only as a result of how hard or far he hit the ball.

I'm not totally certain I explained that perfectly but it's the best I got.  And I don't think anyone can confuse Burke or Taveras for power hitters.  Trying to hit for power doesn't play to either of their strengths.  Burke puts more loft on the ball so he appears to hit with  more power.  However, I think Taveras hits the ball harder that Burke but because he's pounding the ball into the ground, he's usually looking at a grounder and thus the appearance that he doesn't hit very hard.

[No? in Austin]

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Leave me out.

Noe, if Taveras and Burke took the exact same approach to hitting, would the results be the same for both of them?

Arky, what part of "leave me out" did you *NOT* understand?  I could care less about comparing Taveras and Burke and this really utterly inane thread about the slugging prowess of either.  You replied to me because of a reply I made to pravata (which he understood clearly) with all this crap about power and slugging and such.

In my original reply (again to pravata) it was about my comfort level (or lack thereof) with ascribing an ability to a young man who clearly in my mind should take a certain approach that may or may not result in that ability but most certainly would help the team win.

Both Taveras and Burke would serve the Astros well towards that end of applying an approach suited to their best game, that of contact hitters who will hit line drives with a level swing.  Where the fucking ball lands after that is a "i don't give a damn" proposition for me.  More times than not, it will be all good.  Most players in the game call it  "staying within myself and not trying to do too much".  I understand that, many fans understand that.  So when I say something like I did with pravata, you can bank on it that it is within this context of approach and not results.

If I wanted to have a results based conversation with you, I would do so.  I never wanted to do so in this thread, so you're barking up the wrong tree.

Go find someone else Arky, we ain't talking the same thing.

[No? in Austin]

Quote:
Nope. Do a search of Burke on here with a user search of the popes. See what you come up with.

If you're spending your time here searching for what "popes" said in order to tabulate a percentage of what was said on certain topics, then you are in serious need of medical attention.

But if you want, do a search on Biggio+centerfield and you'll get the same responses and messages as with Burke: WE HATE CRAIG BIGGIO.

See how stupid your position is?  I would venture a guess that you wouldn't because you are too far gone... you have a fixation with the forum, not with baseball or the Houston Astros.  And clearly you think JimR *IS* the TZ.  You dismiss everything rationale ever posted about Burke by many of us because you're looking for something, anything to go "A-HA! See... lemmings to JimR and his hatred for Chris Burke".

All that is sad and really distrubing.  You need to seek help pronto.  My advice:

Get off the OWA and TZ and take a very long vacation.  Like, say... oh, a couple of months.  See if that helps any.

[stubbyc]

Quote:
i cannot understand it for you, stubbs. run along. good luck with your fantasy team.

it never ends, Ty. time for you and me to try other threads.

You cannot understand it for anyone because you cannot explain it to anyone. I have no fantasy team, but that seems to be one of the small list of retorts you can come up with.

[schlumburger04]

 

Quote:
I can't remember where Willy hit it, but I remember his only homerun in 2006. I remember thinking, "Damn, that was a shot. I had no idea he had that much power." Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure it went further than any Burke homer I've ever seen.

Like i said earlier in this thread, burke had a 435 ft bomb in pittsburgh. that willy homer doesnt even come close to it.

[stubbyc]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
Larry Dierker, in that clip:

"I noticed in batting practice that he has a little more power than I thought."

His job is to get on base.  His job, more specifically, is to use his abilities to get on base the best way possible - which in his case, is to pound the ball oin the ground and beat it out.

It's a question of approach.

Solely so, however?  Is the difference between them only made up of their approaches?

Impossible to answer.  Do I think that if you told both players, "just hit the ball anywhere", that Burke would routinely hit it farther?  I do, but I don't think that has anything to do with the price of tea in China.

And that has no value. Burke is going to slug higher, going to hit more extra base hits, and going to drive the ball more consistently than Taveras next year. For some reason everyones trying to turn this into some semantical argument where we talk about everything except that is relavent.

[Nate in IA]

Quote:


And that has no value. Burke is going to slug higher, going to hit more extra base hits, and going to drive the ball more consistently than Taveras next year. For some reason everyones trying to turn this into some semantical argument where we talk about everything except that is relavent.

So, what has any of that to do with what helps the Houston Astros?

[geezerdonk]

This thread could have been a seroius lesbian discussion. But nooo...

[JimR]

congrats, stubbs. your soulmate has arrived to bail you out.

or are you really schlumberger also?

[schlumburger04]

Quote:

Quote:
Larry Dierker, in that clip:

"I noticed in batting practice that he has a little more power than I thought."

His job is to get on base.  His job, more specifically, is to use his abilities to get on base the best way possible - which in his case, is to pound the ball oin the ground and beat it out.

It's a question of approach.

Solely so, however?  Is the difference between them only made up of their approaches?

Im not even gonna bother jumping into this arguement, but i  find it funny that someone would think burke's and willy's only difference at the plate is their approach. Just, wow.

[stubbyc]

Quote:
If you're spending your time here searching for what "popes" said in order to tabulate a percentage of what was said on certain topics, then you are in serious need of medical attention.

I have done no such thing. Last night I did a search of Jim R and Burke and came up with nothing but negative. There was a long thread similar to this one where it was pointed out that this board is unfair to Chris Burke by several.

Quote:
See how stupid your position is?  I would venture a guess that you wouldn't because you are too far gone... you have a fixation with the forum, not with baseball or the Houston Astros.  And clearly you think JimR *IS* the TZ.  You dismiss everything rationale ever posted about Burke by many of us because you're looking for something, anything to go "A-HA! See... lemmings to JimR and his hatred for Chris Burke".

This is not the first Astros forum I posted on. I have watched every single game the past 3 years of Astros baseball. It's a disease.

The problem I have is that *Jim R* thinks he is the TZ. If someone disagrees with him (even one of the popes) he'll say something like "That's so stupid I'm surprised i heard it from you". From what I can tell Jim R is a bitter sociopath who can't get along with anyone who doesn't see things his way. His statements whether from himself or from his "sources" are normally absurd as well. His position is normally indefensible so he does not defend it. I try to be reasonable with everyone except for Jim R.

[stubbyc]

Quote:
congrats, stubbs. your soulmate has arrived to bail you out.

or are you really schlumberger also?

Stalker.

[MusicMan]

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Quote:
I can't remember where Willy hit it, but I remember his only homerun in 2006. I remember thinking, "Damn, that was a shot. I had no idea he had that much power." Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure it went further than any Burke homer I've ever seen.

Like i said earlier in this thread, burke had a 435 ft bomb in pittsburgh. that willy homer doesnt even come close to it.

By this logic, Eric Anthony may have been the Astros' gretest power hitter ever.

[No? in Austin]

Quote:

Quote:
congrats, stubbs. your soulmate has arrived to bail you out.

or are you really schlumberger also?

Stalker.

Take a break from the OWA stubbs.  Now!

[stubbyc]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
congrats, stubbs. your soulmate has arrived to bail you out.

or are you really schlumberger also?

Stalker.

Take a break from the OWA stubbs.  Now!

Nah I'm all right.

[No? in Austin]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
Larry Dierker, in that clip:

"I noticed in batting practice that he has a little more power than I thought."

His job is to get on base.  His job, more specifically, is to use his abilities to get on base the best way possible - which in his case, is to pound the ball oin the ground and beat it out.

It's a question of approach.

Solely so, however?  Is the difference between them only made up of their approaches?

Im not even gonna bother jumping into this arguement, but i  find it funny that someone would think burke's and willy's only difference at the plate is their approach. Just, wow.

That would be Arky, not me.  I haven't talked about Taveras once.  But I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict that Arky is going to tell you he never said what you're accusing him of either.

You're really stupid.

[No? in Austin]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
congrats, stubbs. your soulmate has arrived to bail you out.

or are you really schlumberger also?

Stalker.

Take a break from the OWA stubbs.  Now!

Nah I'm all right.

Ahum, no... you're not.  I am not asking you, I'm telling you to take a break or use the ignore feature to your benefit.  You wasted a perfectly awful thread into yet another of your insane "I'm going after the forum and JimR" multi-post thread.

It's idiotic and frankly getting really tired.  So no bones about it, you need to leave for a while to re-think your existence here as something beyond what you decided it is: that of forum asshole and Jim R stalker.  When we have the ignore feature provided for you, there is no excuse for being those two things.  I'm sure many are putting you on the list as we speak, but for the rest of us, you're going to have to choose... today, right now, pronto... what you're going to grow up and be around here.

Now!

[MusicMan]

With most people, I'd be upset that my point was being willfully distorted.

With schlumberger, historical evidence is plenty for me to assume he just doesn't get it.

[No? in Austin]

Quote:
I have done no such thing. Last night I did a search of Jim R and Burke...

STOP!  That is all that we need to hear.  Take a chill pill and use the ignore feature from now on.  This obsessive behavior stops today.   And you need to leave for a few weeks maybe months to re-focus.  If you choose not to come back, so be it... but this stuff ends today.

[No? in Austin]

Quote:
With most people, I'd be upset that my point was being willfully distorated.

With schlumberger, historical evidence is plenty for me to assume he just doesn't get it.

Yup.  Even if Arky and I have different opinions or better still different points of view, neither one of us said anywhere near what schum accused either one of us of.

He's not very bright, is he?

[MusicMan]

Which is pretty suprising.  I've met literally hundreds of Schlumberger employees, and they're generally pretty sharp tacks.

[stubbyc]

Quote:
Ahum, no... you're not.  I am not asking you, I'm telling you to take a break or use the ignore feature to your benefit.  You wasted a perfectly awful thread into yet another of your insane "I'm going after the forum and JimR" multi-post thread.

Nope. I'm only going after Jim R. I'm only going after Jim R because he tried to turn this thread into a pissing contest and started coming after me first.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Quote:
Which is pretty suprising.  I've met literally hundreds of Schlumberger employees, and they're generally pretty sharp tacks.

Schlumberger =/ Schlumburger  

And likewise.  I spent a year working at Western Atlas/Geophysical.  Schlumberger was notorious for poaching the best people, in the Geophysics field, from Western.  

ETA:  If he  works there, he's not smart enough to know how to spell the name correctly.  He might be part of the night-cleaning crew. Not meant as an insult to the janitorial services... bahh.. you get the idea...

[schlumburger04]

Quote:
Which is pretty suprising.  I've met literally hundreds of Schlumberger employees, and they're generally pretty sharp tacks.

Not like i care what you derive about me from my name, but you and jim need to reread the name again

[stubbyc]

Quote:

Quote:
I have done no such thing. Last night I did a search of Jim R and Burke...

STOP!  That is all that we need to hear.  Take a chill pill and use the ignore feature from now on.  This obsessive behavior stops today.   And you need to leave for a few weeks maybe months to re-focus.  If you choose not to come back, so be it... but this stuff ends today.

Honestly, enough with the sermons. Ignore me if you so choose. I'm not going to take a break. If you don't want to deal with me then don't.

[MusicMan]

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Quote:
Ahum, no... you're not.  I am not asking you, I'm telling you to take a break or use the ignore feature to your benefit.  You wasted a perfectly awful thread into yet another of your insane "I'm going after the forum and JimR" multi-post thread.

Nope. I'm only going after Jim R. I'm only going after Jim R because he tried to turn this thread into a pissing contest and started coming after me first.

You can cry "he started it" all you want, but you're too dense to realize that Noe's telling you he's going to end it.

[BudGirl]

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Quote:

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I have done no such thing. Last night I did a search of Jim R and Burke...

STOP!  That is all that we need to hear.  Take a chill pill and use the ignore feature from now on.  This obsessive behavior stops today.   And you need to leave for a few weeks maybe months to re-focus.  If you choose not to come back, so be it... but this stuff ends today.

Honestly, enough with the sermons. Ignore me if you so choose. I'm not going to take a break. If you don't want to deal with me then don't.

Noe is going to make it easy for us all to ignore you.

[MusicMan]

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Quote:
Which is pretty suprising.  I've met literally hundreds of Schlumberger employees, and they're generally pretty sharp tacks.

Not like i care what you derive about me from my name, but you and jim need to reread the name again

Both you and Tom right, i missed the spelling.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
Which is pretty suprising.  I've met literally hundreds of Schlumberger employees, and they're generally pretty sharp tacks.

Not like i care what you derive about me from my name, but you and jim need to reread the name again

Both you and Tom right, i missed the spelling.

And that, I hope, is the last time I am grouped with that guy.  Dude is wrong on so many levels I can only conclude he must watch alot of ESPN.  ESPN is like CRACK, and CRACK KILLS!

[No? in Austin]

Quote:
I'm not going to take a break.

Okay, I was hoping it wouldn't be your position, but as you wish.

Quote:
If you don't want to deal with me then don't.

Actually, my whole reason for posting to you directly is to deal with you.  Now, you need to take this to PM to understand clearly what I'm talking to you about.  No more posting on this thread about your own agenda.  I asked you nicely to talk Astros baseball if you wanted to and not use that subject as a thinly veiled method to your real agenda.

Too bad, your wide brush of this entire site was unfortunate based on your own dislike of one particular poster who you can *easily* avoid using the ignore feature.  It was put in there just for this sort of thing, yet you and others choose willingly to avoid what we (OWA) provided for you and instead you choose to be an asshole.

Okay, now it's time for me to react to that very decision.   PM me if you wish, because this won't end nicely I'm sure.  But it will end.

[JimR]

you do not even lie well.

i went back to check. on page 6 of this thread, is the following:

JimR:stop it, Arky, please.

this line by line refutation attempt has been done before, and it is just as irritating now.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



stubby the stalker: You are so incredibly full of shit it's unbelievable. Are you so blind that you cannot fucking see what the rest of the fucking world can see. Chris Burke has more power than Willy Taveras. Get your head out of your fucking ass.

i believe that clever diatribe would qualify as the first shot in this thread, and before this, i had been talking to Arky and schlum.

you're going to get banned, of course, but you need to see this.

[schlumburger04]

 

Quote:
And that, I hope, is the last time I am grouped with that guy. Dude is wrong on so many levels I can only conclude he must watch alot of ESPN. ESPN is like CRACK, and CRACK KILLS!

ESPN is awesome. they like cover sports and junk, which i kind of like

[No? in Austin]

Quote:

Quote:
And that, I hope, is the last time I am grouped with that guy. Dude is wrong on so many levels I can only conclude he must watch alot of ESPN. ESPN is like CRACK, and CRACK KILLS!

ESPN is awesome. they like cover sports and junk, which i kind of like

Congratulations on your 101st post of stupidity.  Awesome job!

[schlumburger04]

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Quote:

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And that, I hope, is the last time I am grouped with that guy. Dude is wrong on so many levels I can only conclude he must watch alot of ESPN. ESPN is like CRACK, and CRACK KILLS!

ESPN is awesome. they like cover sports and junk, which i kind of like

Congratulations on your 101st post of stupidity.  Awesome job!

You dont like sports?

[Alkie]

Ok, I'll bite.  

Who plays schlumburger04?  I owe you a beer, just for your persistance, whoever you are.

[MusicMan]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
And that, I hope, is the last time I am grouped with that guy. Dude is wrong on so many levels I can only conclude he must watch alot of ESPN. ESPN is like CRACK, and CRACK KILLS!

ESPN is awesome. they like cover sports and junk, which i kind of like

Congratulations on your 101st post of stupidity.  Awesome job!

You dont like sports?

By your logic, since I don't like MTV, then I don't like music.

[BudGirl]

Quote:
Ok, I'll bite.  

Who plays schlumburger04?  I owe you a beer, just for your persistance, whoever you are.

Me, I love free beer.

[Alkie]

I'm going to need proof.

[BudGirl]

Quote:
I'm going to need proof.

Have you seen the both of us on line at the same time???

[Alkie]

Bzzzzzzzzzt.

The correct answer was "prove to you that I love free beer?  <insert punchline here>."

[UpTooLate]

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Quote:
Ok, I'll bite.  

Who plays schlumburger04?  I owe you a beer, just for your persistance, whoever you are.

Me, I love free beer.

Me thinks that anyone who has read ALL 10 pages of this thread deserves a free beer.  Just to restore brain cells.  Alkies treat of course.

[Lefty]

Quote:
By your logic, since I don't like MTV, then I don't like music.

A most excellent comparison.

[BudGirl]

Quote:
Bzzzzzzzzzt.

The correct answer was "prove to you that I love free beer?  <insert punchline here>."

Damm trick questions.

[schlumburger04]

 

Quote:
By your logic, since I don't like MTV, then I don't like music.

mtv doesnt have anything to do with music though

[MusicMan]

(be patient... let him make the connection...)

[pravata]

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Quote:
By your logic, since I don't like MTV, then I don't like music.

mtv doesnt have anything to do with music though

Once again, the point just rocketed many miles over your head.

[Ty in Tampa]

You know, you can't pay for entertainment like this.

[schlumburger04]

mtv has nothing to do with music, whereas espn is nothing but sweet beautiful sports 24/7 with a little poker thrown in.

[Alkie]

Which is why I know it's an act.  NO ONE would stick around for the abuse.  

So far, I count one MAYBE two people who have come to his even remotest defense.  

I'm just not sure why anyone would intentionally go somewhere, where no one invited them, no one seems to LIKE them, and where they have no respect whatsoever.

[BudGirl]

Quote:
Which is why I know it's an act.  NO ONE would stick around for the abuse.  

So far, I count one MAYBE two people who have come to his even remotest defense.  

I'm just not sure why anyone would intentionally go somewhere, where no one invited them, no one seems to LIKE them, and where they have no respect whatsoever.

Maybe they know you'll offer free beer for that tenacity.

[MusicMan]

Quote:
I'm just not sure why anyone would intentionally go somewhere, where no one invited them, no one seems to LIKE them, and where they have no respect whatsoever.

I don't know, ask an OU fan at the State Fair.

[Spack McGrimm]

Move along. Nothing more to see here.