Nationals @ Astros April 30, 2014

[Mr. Happy]

Your lineups for tonight's game:

Nationals

CFDenard Span (L)
3BAnthony Rendon (R)
DHJayson Werth (R)
SSIan Desmond (R)
1BTyler Moore (R)
LFKevin Frandsen (R)
2BDanny Espinosa (S)
CSandy Leon (S)
RFSteve Souza (R)
WAS : Jordan Zimmermann (R)  (1-1, 4.05)

Astros

2B Jose Altuve (R)
CF Dexter Fowler (S)
C Jason Castro (L)
RF George Springer (R)
1B Jesus Guzman (R)
LF Alex Presley (L)
DH Chris Carter (R)
3B Matt Dominguez (R)
SS Jonathan Villar (S)
HOU : Brett Oberholtzer (L)  (0-4, 4.61)

[Reuben]

Even with their two best hitters on the DL, and multiple guys I've never heard of, that Nats lineup still easily outclasses the Astros'.

[subnuclear]

Span - K
Rendon - Double to RF
Werth - K
Desmond - Ground out to 1st

Middle of the 1st. Tied 0-0.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

We beseech ye powerful Wotan, please don't forsake us like did Thor, Tyr, and Freya, or the days of the Sun and Moon, or that motherfucker Saturn. We need you, our one day.

[subnuclear]

Tonight we will learn which is worse: watching the 2014 Astros or the root canal I had today.

Got a bottle of codeine ready.

[subnuclear]

Altuve - Grounds out to SS
Fowler - Grounds out to 2nd
Castro - K swinging

End of the 1st. Tied 0-0..

[subnuclear]

Moore - Grounds out to SS
Frandsen - Line drive out to RF
Espinosa - Hits to SS, who tosses it over Guzman's head on a close play, Espinosa stays at 1st
Leon - (Stolen Base by Espinosa) BB
Souza - Grounds to SS, Leon out at 2nd

Middle of the 2nd. Tied 0-0.

[subnuclear]

Springer - Fly out to 2nd
Guzman - Single up the middle
Presley - Ground to 2nd, Guzman forced out at 2nd, Presley safe at 1st
Carter - Grounds to SS and is thrown out at 1st

End of the 2nd. Tied 0-0.

[subnuclear]

Springer badly misplays a grounder to RF and Span gets around the bases Nationals 1-0. No outs.

[HudsonHawk]

Holy shit, Springer is brutal in the outfield.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

It's amazing how much this game can get in a players head and fuck him the hell up. Talent be damned.

[NeilT]

Holy shit, Springer is brutal in the outfield.

You could have been more inclusive.  Much of this team will be offended that you don't think they're also brutal in the field.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Them boys gots to get their minds right.

[subnuclear]

Span - Inside the park HR due Springer misplaying RF grounder
Rendon - Single to RF
Werth - Grounds to SS, Rendon out at 2nd, Werth safe at 1st
Desmond - Single to RF, Werth to 2nd
Moore - (Werth picked off at 2nd) K swinging

Middle of the 3rd. Nationals 1-0.

[HudsonHawk]

Nice pickoff and K to get out of a little trouble.

[subnuclear]

Dominguez - BB
Villar - K looking
Altuve - Fly out to CF
Fowler - K looking

End of the 3rd. Nationals 1-0.

[HudsonHawk]

Great...lazy outfield play and infield slapdickery give the Nats another run.

[subnuclear]

Single to RF, Frandsen advances to third, Dominguez tries to throw Leon at 1st, Guzman loses the ball and Frandsen scores. Nationals 2-0 1 out.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

It's hard to win with your dick slapping all over the place.

[HudsonHawk]

Presley gets in on the dick stomping to gift another run.

[subnuclear]

Rendon hits it to RF, Span and Leon score. Nationals 4-0. 2 outs.

[subnuclear]

Werth singles, Rendon scores. Nationals 5-0.

[subnuclear]

Frandsen - Single to RF
Espinosa - K
Leon - Single to RF, Frandsen advances to third, Dominguez tries to throw Leon at 1st, Guzman loses the ball and Frandsen scores
Souza - K looking
Span - Single to RF, Leon to 3rd
Rendon - Doubles to RF, Leon and Span score
Werth - Singles, Rendon scores
Desmond - pops out to catcher

Middle of the 4th. Nationals 5-0.

[juliogotay]

Holy shit, Springer is brutal in the outfield.

5 errors in 18 games is pretty poor. And he is playing RF. I'd say he's a little tight.

Maybe the whole team is tight? Does Porter's football mentality keep them a little on edge?

[HudsonHawk]

Presley, Fowler and Springer are hands down the worst defensive outfield I've ever seen.

[HudsonHawk]

5 errors in 18 games is pretty poor.

5 errors in a season is poor.  In 18 games is indefensible.

[subnuclear]

Castro - K
Springer - Singles to SS
Guzman - Singles to SS
Presley - Flies out to 3rd
Carter - Ground to 3rd, Force out at 2nd.

End of the 4th. Nationals 5-0.

[subnuclear]

Feeling a little woozy, so I'm going to stop the PBP.

[NeilT]

Feeling a little woozy, so I'm going to stop the PBP.

I think you're absolved from wearing your Astros cap to work tomorrow..

[subnuclear]

I think you're absolved from wearing your Astros cap to work tomorrow..

Thank you.

[juliogotay]

5 errors in a season is poor.  In 18 games is indefensible.

5 games in a season is poor? Uh, no.

[Aussie Astro]

It looks like Obie has dropped his bundle, it is hard to soar like an eagle when you are surrounded by turkeys.

[HudsonHawk]

5 games in a season is poor? Uh, no.

From *my* RFer it is. Your standards may be lower.

[NeilT]

From *my* RFer it is. Your standards may be lower.

Since I'm not following this discussion, and unfortunately I'm following the game, we need to make an Astros day game.  I don't think I can do the 8th though.

[HudsonHawk]

Since I'm not following this discussion, and unfortunately I'm following the game, we need to make an Astros day game.  I don't think I can do the 8th though.

I was just thinking that today. We'll have to make that happen.

[chuck]

I haven't seen all of Springer's at bats but I've seen a lot of them and I haven't seen him hit a ball particularly hard yet. And he has been bad in the outfield, there's really no other way to say it.

[NeilT]

I was just thinking that today. We'll have to make that happen.

I suspect firm tickets might be available.

[HudsonHawk]

I suspect firm tickets might be available.

Who else would want them?

[NeilT]

Who else would want them?

Ok.  I'm pretty damn certain firm tickets would be available. 

[juliogotay]

From *my* RFer it is. Your standards may be lower.

I'm glad your standards are so high. Clemente made 140 errors in 18 seasons (7.77 ave per), Parker 142 in 17 seasons (8.35 per),
Aaron 117 in 23 (5.08 per) Colavito 70 in 14 ( 5 per), Kaline 73 in 21 (3.47 per), Robinson 68 in 20 (3.4 per) and Evans 59 in 19 (3.10 per).
While 5 is about the median in this group of All-Stars, MVPs and HOFers, can it be all that bad?

[NeilT]

I'm glad your standards are so high. Clemente made 140 errors in 18 seasons (7.77 ave per), Parker 142 in 17 seasons (8.35 per),
Aaron 117 in 23 (5.08 per) Colavito 70 in 14 ( 5 per), Kaline 73 in 21 (3.47 per), Robinson 68 in 20 (3.4 per) and Evans 59 in 19 (3.10 per).
While 5 is about the median in this group of All-Stars, MVPs and HOFers, can it be all that bad?

So Julio, you want to make that day game with us?

[Reuben]

Jesse Barfield, 62 errors in 12 seasons, including 5 where we made more than 5 errors, and twice had as many as 10.

[HudsonHawk]

Jesse Barfield, 62 errors in 12 seasons, including 5 where we made more than 5 errors, and twice had as many as 10.

And he was a brutal outfielder, routinely in the bottom 10%. Is that your baseline for Springer?

Actually, I was wondering how long you'd spend looking up some poor hack who made a lot of errors.

[Reuben]

And he was a brutal outfielder, routinely in the bottom 10%. Is that your baseline for Springer?

Actually, I was wondering how long you'd spend looking up some poor hack who made a lot of errors.

Jesse Barfield was a brutal outfielder, huh? Wow, ok. So Roberto Clemente, he was a brutal outfielder too? Were you really wondering how long I'd spend doing that, seeing as how that was my first post of the game?

[jbm]

Speaking of shitty defenders, check out Harden on TNT.  

[juliogotay]

And he was a brutal outfielder, routinely in the bottom 10%. Is that your baseline for Springer?

Actually, I was wondering how long you'd spend looking up some poor hack who made a lot of errors.

Gold Gloves in '86 and '87. And it took 47 seconds to look it up.

[HudsonHawk]

Jesse Barfield was a brutal outfielder, huh? Wow, ok. So Roberto Clemente, he was a brutal outfielder too? Were you really wondering how long I'd spend doing that, seeing as how that was my first post of the game?

Sorry, had you confused with juliogotay. And yes, Barfield was a terrible outfielder, despite winning Gold Gloves. And if Clemente had as many errors in 2014 as he had back in the day, yes, I'd say that was a lot.

[HudsonHawk]

Gold Gloves in '86 and '87. And it took 47 seconds to look it up.

Did you ever watch him play?  How many times did he lead the league in errors?  How many times was he in say the bottom quartile?  How many guys played RF in the big leagues last season and what percentage of them had 5 or more errors?

Honestly, I can't believe I'm having to convince people that 30+ errors in RF is really bad.

[Aussie Astro]

Speaking of shitty defenders, check out Harden on TNT.  

Damn right, he should change his name to Haren.

[HudsonHawk]

It must suck getting drilled in the 9th inning of a blowout game.

[chuck]

Honestly, I can't believe I'm having to convince people that 30+ errors in RF is really bad.

He's had 5 and counting in 14 games. He's on a pace to commit 57 in a full season. That is decidedly below average.

[HudsonHawk]

He's had 5 and counting in 14 games. He's on a pace to commit 57 in a full season. That is decidedly below average.

And they're not throwing errors trying to nail people at the plate.  They're kicking lazy ground balls.

[Reuben]

Did you ever watch him play?  How many times did he lead the league in errors?  How many times was he in say the bottom quartile?  How many guys played RF in the big leagues last season and what percentage of them had 5 or more errors?

Honestly, I can't believe I'm having to convince people that 30+ errors in RF is really bad.

Who said anything about 30+ errors? Obviously, Springer's on a wretched pace. There's no debate here about whether he has been terrible. Clearly he is psyched out by the major leagues in all respects right now, and one has to wonder how much longer they keep him up there.

But making 5 errors over the course of a whole season is not "awful" (can't remember your exact word). And if a guy is getting to a ton of balls and throwing out a lot of baserunners, like Clemente, it doesn't matter if he makes 5 or even 10 errors - he's still a great RFer. Even in modern days, where there are fewer errors overall than in Clemente's time, you still have guys like Heyward, Reddick, Werth, Stubbs - all regarded as above-average or GG-type OFers - making 5 or more E's in a season in RF.

[HudsonHawk]

Who said anything about 30+ errors? Obviously, Springer's on a wretched pace. There's no debate here about whether he has been terrible. Clearly he is psyched out by the major leagues in all respects right now, and one has to wonder how much longer they keep him up there.

But making 5 errors over the course of a whole season is not "awful" (can't remember your exact word). And if a guy is getting to a ton of balls and throwing out a lot of baserunners, like Clemente, it doesn't matter if he makes 5 or even 10 errors - he's still a great RFer. Even in modern days, where there are fewer errors overall than in Clemente's time, you still have guys like Heyward, Reddick, Werth, Stubbs - all regarded as above-average or GG-type OFers - making 5 or more E's in a season in RF.

I said it was "poor".  So how many guys had 5 or more errors in RF last season?  What percentage is that?

[Reuben]

I said it was "poor".  So how many guys had 5 or more errors in RF last season?  What percentage is that?

Looks like 10, led by Stanton and Hamilton with 8. No idea what % that is of full-time RFers. But that's not the point. My point is that a RFer can be near the bottom of the league in errors and still be a good fielder, because you're only talking about a few errors in some cases separating them from the top guys. If your SS is leading the league in errors, then you worry.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the original point you were making.

[HudsonHawk]

Looks like 10, led by Stanton and Hamilton with 8. No idea what % that is of full-time RFers. But that's not the point. My point is that a RFer can be near the bottom of the league in errors and still be a good fielder, because you're only talking about a few errors in some cases separating them from the top guys. If your SS is leading the league in errors, then you worry.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the original point you were making.

We're not talking about how good a RF someone is.  The discussion is how many errors puts you near the bottom of the list.  And I'm sorry, but when my RF makes an error every three games, I'm still worried.

[Reuben]

We're not talking about how good a RF someone is.  The discussion is how many errors puts you near the bottom of the list.  And I'm sorry, but when my RF makes an error every three games, I'm still worried.

Then, unbeknownst to either one of us, we've actually been in total agreement the whole time.

[Mr. Happy]

I remember Clemente at the end of his career. He had a cannon. However, the number of errors out in RF is surprising.

[HudsonHawk]

I remember Clemente at the end of his career. He had a cannon. However, the number of errors out in RF is surprising.

Yes, Clemente made a ton of errors.  He led the league most years.  Though I suspect that a good many of his were throwing, as he also led the league in assists most years. 

[Mr. Happy]

Yes, Clemente made a ton of errors.  He led the league most years.  Though I suspect that a good many of his were throwing, as he also led the league in assists most years. 

I remember him throwing a laser in the Dome one day to nail (I think that it was Denis Menke) a baserunner trying to go from 1B to 3B on a single to RF. The baserunner was out by about ten feet. It wasn't close. My father looked at me and said "son, that was a big league throw." I'll never forget it.

[HudsonHawk]

I remember him throwing a laser in the Dome one day to nail (I think that it was Denis Menke) a baserunner trying to go from 1B to 3B on a single to RF. The baserunner was out by about ten feet. It wasn't close. My father looked at me and said "son, that was a big league throw." I'll never forget it.

Better than the lollygagging Fowler did last night letting the slowest runner on the Nats go first to third on a sharp single right at him in CF.  There wasn't even a play at 3B.

[juliogotay]

Who said anything about 30+ errors? Obviously, Springer's on a wretched pace. There's no debate here about whether he has been terrible. Clearly he is psyched out by the major leagues in all respects right now, and one has to wonder how much longer they keep him up there.

But making 5 errors over the course of a whole season is not "awful" (can't remember your exact word). And if a guy is getting to a ton of balls and throwing out a lot of baserunners, like Clemente, it doesn't matter if he makes 5 or even 10 errors - he's still a great RFer. Even in modern days, where there are fewer errors overall than in Clemente's time, you still have guys like Heyward, Reddick, Werth, Stubbs - all regarded as above-average or GG-type OFers - making 5 or more E's in a season in RF.

Nobody said anything about 30 errors being acceptable. Nobody on this board has tried to defend the errors Springer has made. He has made too many thus far and everyone knows that. I don't know that much about Barfield but he had one of the best throwing arms of any RFer and that alone made him a valuable asset in RF. He was not brutal or terrible.  Errors are not the sole criteria for judging fielders anyway. How about range, throwing (Barfield was elite), making right decisions? If you judge an player by errors alone you are not looking at the whole picture. Much like judging a pitcher by his base on balls only or his strikeout totals. And that's not to get into scoring decisions that are sometimes questionable. Springer is really struggling. I know RF is new to him and that could be part of it. Probably he is simply tight trying to live up to the press clippings.

[juliogotay]

Did you ever watch him play?  How many times did he lead the league in errors?  How many times was he in say the bottom quartile?  How many guys played RF in the big leagues last season and what percentage of them had 5 or more errors?

Honestly, I can't believe I'm having to convince people that 30+ errors in RF is really bad.

You don't have to convince anybody that 30 errors is really bad. I don't know why you think you do.

[jbm]

Springer has been terrible in right.  Having seen him play in center, I know he has skills and assume the club figured those skills would make the transition to right.  They haven't.  Since most of the errors I have seen are not misreads or poor routes, but poor handling of balls on the ground (and a brain-dead throw), I think he will be fine if he can just relax as I assume when relaxed, he can actually glove a ball on the ground and transfer it to his throwing hand.  That being said, no one one the club seems very relaxed, so it is hard to see that in Springer's near future.

[HudsonHawk]

You don't have to convince anybody that 30 errors is really bad. I don't know why you think you do.

Probably becaused you phrased making a seasons's worth of errors in 14 games as "poor".

[Mr. Happy]

Springer has been terrible in right.  Having seen him play in center, I know he has skills and assume the club figured those skills would make the transition to right.  They haven't.  Since most of the errors I have seen are not misreads or poor routes, but poor handling of balls on the ground (and a brain-dead throw), I think he will be fine if he can just relax as I assume when relaxed, he can actually glove a ball on the ground and transfer it to his throwing hand.  That being said, no one one the club seems very relaxed, so it is hard to see that in Springer's near future.

You're absolutely right about his errors. They're fundamental baseball errors, which really is (or should be) unacceptable at the big league level.

[Ron Brand]

You've been waiting for it, and here is Sphinx's fine recap.

[BudGirl]

I suspect firm tickets might be available.

Can I go too?

[BudGirl]

You've been waiting for it, and here is Sphinx's fine recap.

I give it a 7.

Very good recap!

[juliogotay]

Probably becaused you phrased making a seasons's worth of errors in 14 games as "poor".

Sorry I didn't hyperbolize to your liking. I am trying not to overreact in my old age. And it's 18 games.

[juliogotay]

Probably becaused you phrased making a seasons's worth of errors in 14 games as "poor".

[HudsonHawk]

Sorry I didn't hyperbolize to your liking. I am trying not to overreact in my old age. And it's 18 games.

What hyperbole?  I said five errors for the season puts you near the bottom for right fielders, and to have that many in April is just plain terrible.  You acted like I was off my rocker. 

And last night was Springer's 14th game.

[HudsonHawk]

Can I go too?

Do you own a bowtie?

[juliogotay]

What hyperbole?  I said five errors for the season puts you near the bottom for right fielders, and to have that many in April is just plain terrible.  You acted like I was off my rocker. 

And last night was Springer's 14th game.

You're right. It was Springer's 14th game.

[Mr. Happy]

Excellent recap, SD!!!

[Reuben]

You know what's really fucked up in all this? I looked up Grossman's stats, and he somehow was only charged with 1 error in the OF this year. That guy was boxing the ball around just as badly as Springer. Honestly, between the two of them, I can't recall seeing worse cases of being psyched out and fucking up routine outfield plays.

[jbm]

Yeah, errors are funny things.  If you run circles trying to get to a ball and can't glove it, there is no error.  Grossman's woes were far more troubling, IMO even though they may not have technically been errors.

[HudsonHawk]

Yeah, errors are funny things.  If you run circles trying to get to a ball and can't glove it, there is no error. 

That's not entirely true.  There is a misconception that if you don't touch the ball, you can't be charged with an error.  That is not correct.  If the scorer rules that a typical outfielder would have caught the ball, it's an error.

[jbm]

That's not entirely true.  There is a misconception that if you don't touch the ball, you can't be charged with an error.  That is not correct.  If the scorer rules that a typical outfielder would have caught the ball, it's an error.

  Yeah, but you saw some of Grossman's routes and he benefited from a sympathetic scorer.

[BudGirl]

Do you own a bowtie?

No, but I can buy one.

[NeilT]

No, but I can buy one.

I can lend you one.  After May 8, the next day game I see scheduled is Wodensday, July 10.

It's against the hated Mariners.

[BudGirl]

I can lend you one.  After May 8, the next day game I see scheduled is Wodensday, July 10.

It's against the hated Mariners.

What about the Braves on June 26th?  $1 hot dogs.

[NeilT]

What about the Braves on June 26th?  $1 hot dogs.

I missed that one.  Of course playing the Braves isn't nearly as exciting as the Mariners.  Who cares about the Braves? There's never been any rivalry there.

[HudsonHawk]

What about the Braves on June 26th?  $1 hot dogs.

Works for me.  I'll bring a $20 bill!

[Mr. Happy]

I can lend you one.  After May 8, the next day game I see scheduled is Wodensday, July 10.

It's against the hated Mariners.

I'm thinking about making another trek to Houston to see at least one more game this season. It might be fun to get a group of us and go to a day game.

[NeilT]

I've put the 26th on my calendar.  If Happy comes, that's icing.

[Mr. Happy]

I've put the 26th on my calendar.  If Happy comes, that's icing.

I'm really going to try.

[Aussie Astro]

Yeah, errors are funny things.  If you run circles trying to get to a ball and can't glove it, there is no error.  Grossman's woes were far more troubling, IMO even though they may not have technically been errors.

Errors are funny things alright, for a few reasons.  I will never claim to be a great student of the game but I wonder much weight you should put on the error tally in the overall assessment of a guy's defensive worth?  The obvious problem is how subjective the call is in the first place.  A guy gets a good read on a fly ball and gets to the exact right spot to commit an error whereas another guy that didn't get the good jump or is not as quick gets there to take it safely on the first bounce.  The other thing that is probably obvious is that there are errors and there are errors, the consequence of the error is (seemingly) unimportant.  An error that allows a base runner to reach may be erased by a DP the very next pitch but it shows up in the same count as an error that costs runs or even games.  So yeah, errors are funny things.