Trade w/Jays

[Ron Brand]

Houston sends Lyon, Happ and Carpenter to Toronto for Francisco Cordero, Ben Francisco, Asher Wojciechowski, Joe Musgrove, David Rollins and Carlos Perez, per Levine tweet.

[Ron Brand]

Plus a PTBNL. The prospects are three pitchers and a catcher, two pitchers were former first-round picks.

[Ron Brand]

More here.

[Ebby Calvin]

Wow.  Thanks RB.

[subnuclear]

Total chaos!

[moriartp]

Okay, this appears to be the official thread by 11 seconds. Unless Happ really turns it around over there, uh... hang on... there are just too many goddamn players in this deal for me to get it straight. But it doesn't look bad.

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

Cordero was Cincy's closer just last year.  Wonder if this means that Myers is next?

[Ebby Calvin]

Okay, this appears to be the official thread by 11 seconds. Unless Happ really turns it around over there, uh... hang on... there are just too many goddamn players in this deal for me to get it straight. But it doesn't look bad.

Exactly.  Somebody please tell me what to think about this.

[MusicMan]

Cordero was Cincy's closer just last year.  Wonder if this means that Myers is next?

That's how I read it.

[Ron Brand]

Exactly.  Somebody please tell me what to think about this.

Luhnow says it's good for org depth. Got some shiny pitchers who might be a tad old for their leagues but have some promise, a worn-out guy who used to close, a catcher for an org that has a real shortage of them, and a guy they can plug into the outfield right now who is somewhere around league-averageish. The money is a wash.

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

Based on a quick glance at Baseball Reference:

Cordero: closer
Fransisco: corner outfielder/PH with pop
Wojciechowski: pitcher out of The Citadel.  Single A.  Former 1st rounder.
Rollins: San Jac grad.  Seems to be the best prospect of the bunch.  High K rate, low ERA.
Perez: probably defensively gifted C, because his batting stats are just so-so, but high fielding marks.
Musgrove: very few appearances, so maybe has been hurt?  Former 1st rounder.

[Mark Arm]

The Bourn deal looks more and more pathetic with every move Luhnow makes. What did Houston ever do to deserve Ed Wade?

[moriartp]

Upon further review, it really doesn't seem bad for a possible non-tender candidate and a reliever who hasn't put it together yet. Not bad at all. In fact, probably pretty darn good.

[Bench]

My main concern is what pitcher with Mr. Happy rail on now?

[Ron Brand]

My main concern is what pitcher with Mr. Happy rail on now?

...ud Norris, paging Bud Norris...

[astrosfan76]

Upon further review, it really doesn't seem bad for a possible non-tender candidate and a reliever who hasn't put it together yet. Not bad at all. In fact, probably pretty darn good.

Rosenthal speculated that Carpenter may have been key to the deal for Blue Jays by having 5 years of control and late-inning potential.  Still a lot gained if he was the key.

[astrosfan76]

The Bourn deal looks more and more pathetic with every move Luhnow makes. What did Houston ever do to deserve Ed Wade?

Yeah, look at that Pence deal, too.  What kind of crap did we get in that one?

[Mr. Happy]

The Bourn deal looks more and more pathetic with every move Luhnow makes. What did Houston ever do to deserve Ed Wade?

Music to Chuck's ears.

[hostros7]

The Bourn deal looks more and more pathetic with every move Luhnow makes. What did Houston ever do to deserve Ed Wade?

If you want to bitch, get your shit straight.  Now is the perfect time to be angry about the Oswalt trade, not the Bourn trade.  Save that for another day.  Throw in some angry Anthony Gose references while you're at it.  

[headhunter]

That's how I read it.

but then its not like the Astros have had a lot of work for a closer lately. Myers thinks the Maytag repairman is busy.

[geezerdonk]

Not sure why the Astros would want Cordero or Francisco.
Maybe they had to take them (their contracts) in order to get the prospects

[Ron Brand]

Not sure why the Astros would want Cordero or Francisco.
Maybe they had to take them (their contracts) in order to get the prospects

Probably, since the money between Cordero and Lyon is a wash. Doesn't look like Cordero has anything left in the tank, but Francisco is an upgrade over any bat in the current OF except maybe Martinez. Not a big upgrade, but an upgrade.

[moriartp]

Olney: Rival evaluator on the TOR/HOU trade: "There are no game-changers in this deal and Musgrove is the best of the prospects."

Musgrove also appears to be hurt, since he hasn't pitched in about a month.

[subnuclear]

The Bourn deal looks more and more pathetic with every move Luhnow makes. What did Houston ever do to deserve Ed Wade?

Please go to another forum and take chuck with you.

[Bench]

Doesn't look like Cordero has anything left in the tank, but Francisco is an upgrade over any bat in the current OF except maybe Martinez. Not a big upgrade, but an upgrade.

Francisco Cordero is three people!

[Ron Brand]

Olney: Rival evaluator on the TOR/HOU trade: "There are no game-changers in this deal and Musgrove is the best of the prospects."

Fuck Olney. We just got Johnny Bench, Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, Goose Gossage, Bob Gibson and Babe Ruth for a couple of dry turds. What does he know?

[jbm]

Rosenthal speculated that Carpenter may have been key to the deal for Blue Jays by having 5 years of control and late-inning potential.  Still a lot gained if he was the key.

Don't get that speculation at all, but I suppose it is possible. 

[Guinness]

Wojciechowski: pitcher out of The Citadel.  Single A.  Former 1st rounder.

The Citadel?  Shouldn't that be the 12th precinct?

[JimR]

Please go to another forum and take chuck with you.

no, chuck can stay. he can be good occasionally.

[Arky Vaughan]

Fuck Olney. We just got Johnny Bench, Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, Goose Gossage, Bob Gibson and Babe Ruth for a couple of dry turds. What does he know?

Those guys are a little long in the tooth.

[Ron Brand]

Those guys are a little long in the tooth.

I'll quote someone I almost threw my life away for. "Come on. Play!"

[Mr. Happy]

If you want to bitch, get your shit straight.  Now is the perfect time to be angry about the Oswalt trade, not the Bourn trade.  Save that for another day.  Throw in some angry Anthony Gose references while you're at it.  

How's that Bourn trade lookin' right about now, though?

[juliogotay]

I'm sure we'll hear that Keuchel has been recalled soon but I don't see that this opens room for Wallace yet. Maybe another shoe to drop soon? Wasn't Happ scheduled to pitch tonite?

[Ron Brand]

I'm sure we'll hear that Keuchel has been recalled soon but I don't see that this opens room for Wallace yet. Maybe another shoe to drop soon? Wasn't Happ scheduled to pitch tonite?

Norris goes tonight.

[moriartp]

From BA earlier this month:

Musgrove was a late bloomer in Southern California, standing out at a showcase in February of his senior year. A 6-foot-5, 230 pounder, he's known for having a heavy fastball.

"He's a big guy and works downhill," Caceres said. "He knows how to pitch. His mound presence is unbelievable. He's more advanced than other guys. He controls the running game. He's very athletic. He can move quickly. He's one guy, we were worried about his velocity a little bit, but he got up to 94 the other night. It's a matter of time for those guys getting used to the program and the velocity will be there."

He signed for $500k, which was $250k below slot. BA had him ranked as the #90 prospect in the draft. Seems like a pretty decent get, maybe somewhere around the Velasquez/Houser tier.

[JimR]

How's that Bourn trade lookin' right about now, though?

you are a bit late.

[moriartp]

I'm sure we'll hear that Keuchel has been recalled soon but I don't see that this opens room for Wallace yet. Maybe another shoe to drop soon?

I assume Keuchel will be in Houston shortly. They'll need to clear a spot for Francisco as well if they want to replace Lyon with another reliever. It's probably time for an outfielder to go down.

[Reuben]

Not glad to see Carp go, despite his struggles this season, but this seems like a nice trade overall.

[juliogotay]

MLB.com ranks Perez (, Wojciechowski (10) and Musgrave (11) among the Jay's top prospects. Wow. That seems like a pretty good haul for what they're getting back.

[astrosfan76]

MLB.com ranks Perez (, Wojciechowski (10) and Musgrave (11) among the Jay's top prospects. Wow. That seems like a pretty good haul for what they're getting back.

I'm intrigued by the guy with the glasses.

[roadrunner]

Here's the difference between Ed Wade and Luhnow.  Every deal Wade did was a trade that everyone saw coming from a mile away.  This isn't necessarily his fault, i.e. Oswalt actually publicly requesting a trade.  Pence and Bourn were obvious, too, for whatever reason.  When the trade finally happened the response was "meh" or just general disappointment in either the players coming back or the fact that the Phillies were on the other side.

When Luhnow has made deals it has been unexpected and the players are generally some that show signs of potential.  Of course Lee was being shopped but the fact that Luhnow did the deal this early and actually received prospects for him were all suprising.  The Lowrie deal came out of nowhere and was obviously a good deal.  This deal was unexpected and it's hard to be upset over losing any of the guys dealt for a bunch of young question marks.  

For what it's worth, I think the Pence deal is an A+ no matter how those guys end up at this point.  Singleton, Cosart, and Santana have all turned out to be legit prospects.  I'd say the Bourn deal is an F (which everyone suspected from the start) and the Oswalt deal is around a C.  Nobody cares, but those are my rambling thoughts in the 5 free minutes I have at work today.  

I never understood the "MLB ready prospect" draw for Wade/Tal/Drayton.

[roadrunner]

MLB.com ranks Perez (, Wojciechowski (10) and Musgrave (11) among the Jay's top prospects. Wow. That seems like a pretty good haul for what they're getting back.

Blue Jays have a top 5 system, too.

[Texifornia]

I'm intrigued by the guy with the glasses.

I think it means they ranked him super-cool.

[juliogotay]

I don't know what the hell happened with the face. Perez is ranked 8. I assume he will now be the highest ranked catcher in the Astros system.

[Reuben]

I think it means they ranked him super-cool.

Perez and The Fonz are nearly interchangeable, except that The Fonz wasn't drafted by Toronto.

[Reuben]

Levine's twitter is saying that Wojalphabet is going from high-A to Corpus, and the C, Perez, will go from low-A to Lancaster. Myers still the closer.

Apparently the Jays are moving Happ to the bullpen. Carp to stay at AAA.

[Mr. Happy]

you are a bit late.

Coach, your sarc-meter needs adjustment.

[Fredia]

this will change the teams dynamics for sure. something is finally going on..with the disaster the team has become anything has to be a good move

[OregonStrosFan]

For what it's worth, I think the Pence deal is an A+ no matter how those guys end up at this point.  Singleton, Cosart, and Santana have all turned out to be legit prospects.  I'd say the Bourn deal is an F (which everyone suspected from the start) and the Oswalt deal is around a C.  Nobody cares, but those are my rambling thoughts in the 5 free minutes I have at work today. 

Ya know... that's kinda been my take on those 3 trades as well. REALLY liked the Pence trade return and REALLY hated the Bourn trade return, and was pretty much 'meh' on the Oswalt trade return.  Sounds like an A / F / C to me!

[Reuben]

Ya know... that's kinda been my take on those 3 trades as well. REALLY liked the Pence trade return and REALLY hated the Bourn trade return, and was pretty much 'meh' on the Oswalt trade return.  Sounds like an A / F / C to me!

I think the Keppinger trade was a solid B. Henry... uh, forget his last name, is gone, but Stoffel seemed mildly promising at the time and has pitched well this year at CC.

The Bourn trade... wish I could forget that one.

[drew corleone]

So I was there to witness the final chapter in the JA Happ era of Houston Astros baseball. *tear*

[drew corleone]

So do any of these acquisitions reflect a disillusionment or lack of confidence in Oberholtzer or Clemens?

[pots]

well if Caprenter was the key then you have to give credit for Wade turning Pedro Feliz into Carpenter

[jaklewein]

There are quite a few teams that could use bullpen help.  I don't know why Cordero couldn't be flipped to one of them.

[astrosfan76]

So do any of these acquisitions reflect a disillusionment or lack of confidence in Oberholtzer or Clemens?

Not really.  Luhnow's moves have been around stockpiling as much talent into the system as possible.  If one of them gets bumped down, you could read a little into that, but other than that, it's just adding talent for the long-term and sorting it out later.

[astrosfan76]

Mayo's writeup on a few of the prospects:

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120720&content_id=35242212&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb&tcid=tw_article_35242212

[Jacksonian]

Wouldn't be surprised to see Wojalphabet get moved with a guy like Myers to help net a higher ceiling prospect.

[Fredia]

i am still confused how could there be a trade without the phillies?

[jaklewein]

I found the following to be interesting (from Baseball America):  The Astros have ample time to develop their new acquisitions also because only Perez, a 21-year-old Venezuelan, must be added to the 40-man roster this November to shield him from the Rule 5 draft.



Link:  http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/majors/trade-central/2012/2613744.html

[Bench]

MetaMuscgrove:  All I do is pitch. I have no control over who I pitch for. My game and dream stays the same all that changes is the logo #Astros

[Limey]

MetaMuscgrove:  All I do is pitch. I have no control over who I pitch for. My game and dream stays the same all that changes is the logo #Astros

Sometimes it rains.

[jbm]

I go to the chronicle to read about this and see an article entitled "In Luhnow we trust." Anyways, it's Chip Bailey and he is a typical Chron lightweight, and due to the title and author, I expect nothing but the prevailing "what a great trade" blather spouted many moons before anyone can rightly proclaim that. 

He didn't focus on that too much, but he did write something which is kind of in the background of this trade and kind of bothers me.  He said that Happ was not part of the "plan." I also assume Wandy is not and it got me wondering "what the fuck is the plan?"

Is it to trade established arms, so we can run out questionable arms for the foreseeable future?  Is it to become the lowest payroll in MLB just for the hell of it, to embrace the small market mentality, or to pay off Crane's debt?  When is it time to build, rather than just tear down?

[jaklewein]

I go to the chronicle to read about this and see an article entitled "In Luhnow we trust." Anyways, it's Chip Bailey and he is a typical Chron lightweight, and due to the title and author, I expect nothing but the prevailing "what a great trade" blather spouted many moons before anyone can rightly proclaim that. 

He didn't focus on that too much, but he did write something which is kind of in the background of this trade and kind of bothers me.  He said that Happ was not part of the "plan." I also assume Wandy is not and it got me wondering "what the fuck is the plan?"

Is it to trade established arms, so we can run out questionable arms for the foreseeable future?  Is it to become the lowest payroll in MLB just for the hell of it, to embrace the small market mentality, or to pay off Crane's debt?  When is it time to build, rather than just tear down?

Calm down…have some dip.  Maybe I’m flying solo, but I don’t expect the Astros to be relevant for another 2-3 years if that.  I’ve accepted it and embrace the fact that the organization is no longer on the fence.

[Andyzipp]

I go to the chronicle to read about this and see an article entitled "In Luhnow we trust." Anyways, it's Chip Bailey and he is a typical Chron lightweight, and due to the title and author, I expect nothing but the prevailing "what a great trade" blather spouted many moons before anyone can rightly proclaim that. 

He didn't focus on that too much, but he did write something which is kind of in the background of this trade and kind of bothers me.  He said that Happ was not part of the "plan." I also assume Wandy is not and it got me wondering "what the fuck is the plan?"

Is it to trade established arms, so we can run out questionable arms for the foreseeable future?  Is it to become the lowest payroll in MLB just for the hell of it, to embrace the small market mentality, or to pay off Crane's debt?  When is it time to build, rather than just tear down?

The plan is to improve the worst team in the major leagues.  This based on the idea that there is currently no one worth building around at the major league level.  Happ has had nearly 2 full years in Houston. They have not been happy times.

[Ebby Calvin]

Sometimes it rains.

This cracked me up.

[Mr. Happy]

The plan is to improve the worst team in the major leagues.  This based on the idea that there is currently no one worth building around at the major league level.  Happ has had nearly 2 full years in Houston. They have not been Mr. hHappy times.

FIFY

[hostros7]

FIFY

Well, they have been Mr. Happy times for some of us. . . more the 80s version of Mr. Happy times though. 

[Mr. Happy]

Well, they have been Mr. Happy times for some of us. . . more the 80s version of Mr. Happy times though. 

The happy times for just about all of you is that you don't have to hear my tired old broken record about wanting to change Happ's whole approach to pitching anymore. Frankly, I'm ecstatic that I don't have to subject you all to that anymore too. BTW, the 80's version of Mr. Happy indeed was a turbulent period, yet I maintained control over most of my life back then. It wasn't until I hit my mid-40s in the 00's that I started having consequences for my shenanigans and poor choices. Unfortunately, this was after I started subjecting myself to you all, which was sometime between '97 and '99. I can't remember, which isn't too surprising.

[hostros7]

The happy times for just about all of you is that you don't have to hear my tired old broken record about wanting to change Happ's whole approach to pitching anymore. Frankly, I'm ecstatic that I don't have to subject you all to that anymore too.

I was just referring to following the Astros in general, not being subjected to your anti-Happ musings in the GZ. I appreciate your takes.

[OregonStrosFan]

Fangraphs take on the trade

[juliogotay]

Musgrove has shoulder issues. Houston has looked at the medical reports and are satisfied it's not serious.

[strosrays]

Houston sends Lyon, Happ and Carpenter to Toronto for Francisco Cordero, Ben Francisco, etc., etc., per Levine tweet.

And, this just in, long-time Spanish dictator Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead!

[Mr. Happy]

I was just referring to following the Astros in general, not being subjected to your anti-Happ musings in the GZ. I appreciate your takes.

Thanks, dude.

[Bench]

Praise from Jonah Keri:  How the Jays Managed to Blow a 10-Player Trade

Meanwhile, the Astros did exactly what the worst team in baseball should be doing: acquiring as many pitchers with any kind of upside as possible, and hoping they hit the lottery with one or two of them. Houston snagged the 10th-, 14th-, and 20th- prospects in Toronto's system, per Baseball America's preseason rankings.

And conclusion:  This looks like something of a hedge trade, an effort to make the team marginally better and keep the Jays on the edges of a playoff hunt, without selling any stud prospects to do it. But the opportunity cost here was too great. The Jays didn't necessarily give up a ton, with no one considered an elite prospect switching teams. But there's value in prospect depth, and Toronto just burned a good chunk of it to make a trade that isn't likely to make them significantly better, now or later. Moreover, you have to imagine they burned a fair number of man hours constructing a 10-player trade, hours that could have been used on more productive ventures.

[austro]

Upon further review, it really doesn't seem bad for a possible non-tender candidate and a reliever who hasn't put it together yet. Not bad at all. In fact, probably pretty darn good.

I'll miss the occasional glance at Carpenter's girlfriend.

[OregonStrosFan]

The presumption (I think correctly) is that the PTBNL is a Jays 2011 draftee.  Farmstros has done a good job noting the possibilities here: LINK

[VirtualBob]

Coach, your sarc-meter needs adjustment.

He probably forgot to wind it again.

[moriartp]

The presumption (I think correctly) is that the PTBNL is a Jays 2011 draftee.  Farmstros has done a good job noting the possibilities here: LINK

A lot of those guys could be good players down the road. I'm excited to find out who it is.

[Bench]

Since joining the Jays Brandon Lyon has struck out 15 batters in 7.1 innings while giving up only 5 hits, 1 run and hasn't walked anybody. 

[jbm]

Didn't see that coming.  A pre-trade vs. post-trade analysis at the end of the season for all the players will be interesting.

[Reuben]

Didn't see that coming.  A pre-trade vs. post-trade analysis at the end of the season for all the players will be interesting.

He just needed to get over to the much weaker AL East to thrive. Wandy probably would've tossed 3 shutouts there by now.

[Mr. Happy]

Since joining the Jays Brandon Lyon has struck out 15 batters in 7.1 innings while giving up only 5 hits, 1 run and hasn't walked anybody. 

He flashed a sign of being able to throw that swing-and-miss curveball/slider in one game earlier this season, and then I didn't see it again. I don't know if it was too hard on his arm or exactly why he deserted what appeared to be a devastating pitch, particularly to right-handed batters.

[Duman]

reports are that Joe Musgrove will make his Astros system debut tonight in relief - 2nd game of double header.

[Bench]

Kevin Comer ‏@kevcomer

It's a new day!! A new team!! And a life!! Thank you #Bluejays for everything but I'm off to the #Astros now! #ptbnl

(via Levine RT).

The fine folks at What the Heck, Bobby? say he's got a "plus fast ball" and a "plus power breaking ball."

[juliogotay]

Kevin Comer ‏@kevcomer

It's a new day!! A new team!! And a life!! Thank you #Bluejays for everything but I'm off to the #Astros now! #ptbnl

(via Levine RT).

The fine folks at What the Heck, Bobby? say he's got a "plus fast ball" and a "plus power breaking ball."

But FB down to upper 80s this year?

[Jacksonian]

But FB down to upper 80s this year?

It often takes their arms time to adjust to pitching as much as they do compared to high school.

[roadrunner]

2011 supplemental 1st rounder?  Did I read that right? 

[juliogotay]

2011 supplemental 1st rounder?  Did I read that right? 

That's what I read. It would be interesting to see how many first-round types Luhnow has acquired in this job. Counting draft, waivers, trades.

[Mr. Happy]

That's what I read. It would be interesting to see how many first-round types Luhnow has acquired in this job. Counting draft, waivers, trades.

I'm not quite sure what it is about high draft picks, but Luhnow has definitely shown a strong proclivity toward raking them in from everywhere.

[hostros7]

2011 supplemental 1st rounder?  Did I read that right? 

And, I saw somewhere (can't remember) that the Jays offered him a sizable bonus in the neighborhood of $1.7mm to avoid losing him to a Vandy commit. 

[Reuben]

I really don't understand how Luhnow seems to have gotten better prospects - and a far better overall package - for Happ/Lyon/Carpenter than he did for Wandy and a significant amount of cash. I would've thought a quality LH starter with 2 1/2 years left on his deal at a very reasonable price (factoring in the cash the Astros kicked in) would get a very good return.

Obviously, no one knows who will turn out to be the best players in either deal, but on face value, I'm very impressed with the haul from the Jays, but by contrast, disappointed with the apparent value of the package from the Pirates: Grossman, a good OBP guy with little power who may or may not be a centerfielder, an OK AAA SP who maybe can be a #5 starter,  and a 21-year-old A-ball pitcher with a 4th/5th starter ceiling. What am I missing here?

[Jacksonian]

I really don't understand how Luhnow seems to have gotten better prospects - and a far better overall package - for Happ/Lyon/Carpenter than he did for Wandy and a significant amount of cash. I would've thought a quality LH starter with 2 1/2 years left on his deal at a very reasonable price (factoring in the cash the Astros kicked in) would get a very good return.

Obviously, no one knows who will turn out to be the best players in either deal, but on face value, I'm very impressed with the haul from the Jays, but by contrast, disappointed with the apparent value of the package from the Pirates: Grossman, a good OBP guy with little power who may or may not be a centerfielder, an OK AAA SP who maybe can be a #5 starter,  and a 21-year-old A-ball pitcher with a 4th/5th starter ceiling. What am I missing here?

I don't believe Wandy was as desired as you believe.

[roadrunner]

Wandy's stock was definitely falling fast.  He probably would have generated a better return had he been dealt in May or June.

[Fynn]

Nice interview with Comer from 2011. 

http://yankees.scout.com/2/1064116.html

[Mr. Happy]

I really don't understand how Luhnow seems to have gotten better prospects - and a far better overall package - for Happ/Lyon/Carpenter than he did for Wandy and a significant amount of cash. I would've thought a quality LH starter with 2 1/2 years left on his deal at a very reasonable price (factoring in the cash the Astros kicked in) would get a very good return.

Obviously, no one knows who will turn out to be the best players in either deal, but on face value, I'm very impressed with the haul from the Jays, but by contrast, disappointed with the apparent value of the package from the Pirates: Grossman, a good OBP guy with little power who may or may not be a centerfielder, an OK AAA SP who maybe can be a #5 starter,  and a 21-year-old A-ball pitcher with a 4th/5th starter ceiling. What am I missing here?

Reuben, my man. I think that you're viewing Wandy like the Astros were trying to sell him, despite his actual results on the bump, which the buyers were seeing. It really hasn't been there many days for Wandy this season. I don't know if age is starting to be a factor or not. I know this: he wasn't lit the world afire for the Pirates thus far.

[Reuben]

So Lyon was more attractive to teams than Wandy? 'Cause it sure as hell couldn't have been Happ, and I doubt Carpenter's inclusion changed the return much.

[moriartp]

So Lyon was more attractive to teams than Wandy? 'Cause it sure as hell couldn't have been Happ, and I doubt Carpenter's inclusion changed the return much.

Happ may have been more attractive based on salary alone. If you think Wandy's recent performance is indicative of what's to come, why take on that contract?

[Reuben]

Happ may have been more attractive based on salary alone. If you think Wandy's recent performance is indicative of what's to come, why take on that contract?

I believe I read that the money the Astros kicked in means the Pirates are getting him for about $8mil/year. Not bad at all for the pitcher he's consistently been over the past 4-5 years. Sure, he'd been scuffling for a month or two, but I didn't see any loss in FB velocity, CB break, anything like that, nor did he look completely lost. I just can't fathom that Major League talent evaluators would rather have JA Happ than Wandy Rodriguez, even if his 2013-14 salaries will be millions less.

Maybe I'm letting my fondness for Wandy color my thinking here, I dunno. Seems like Luhnow sold low on him, and somehow sold high on Happ/Lyon/Carp. Or maybe Grossman or Owens are much better players than I'm giving them credit for.

[Mr. Happy]

So Lyon was more attractive to teams than Wandy? 'Cause it sure as hell couldn't have been Happ, and I doubt Carpenter's inclusion changed the return much.

Don't discount the possibility that the deal from Toronto's part to part company with Cordero, who was signed to close for them for this season. It is common practice in the big leagues to trade players that the team wants to ditch to a new team that can more easily get rid of the player without any trouble. According to some, Luhnow didn't start out including Happ in the deal, which really was of acquiring Lyon for a possible playoff run. Happ was added close to the end. There was no real reason for Luhnow to pick up Cordero, who was getting shelled in each outing, other than to accommodate Toronto. The players who Luhnow wanted were the minor leaguers that he acquired. Whether he sold high or low, time will tell.

[Mr. Happy]

I believe I read that the money the Astros kicked in means the Pirates are getting him for about $8mil/year. Not bad at all for the pitcher he's consistently been over the past 4-5 years. Sure, he'd been scuffling for a month or two, but I didn't see any loss in FB velocity, CB break, anything like that, nor did he look completely lost. I just can't fathom that Major League talent evaluators would rather have JA Happ than Wandy Rodriguez, even if his 2013-14 salaries will be millions less.

Maybe I'm letting my fondness for Wandy color my thinking here, I dunno. Seems like Luhnow sold low on him, and somehow sold high on Happ/Lyon/Carp. Or maybe Grossman or Owens are much better players than I'm giving them credit for.

I was fond of Wandy too, but he hasn't quite been that good for most of this season. Query: is he is decline? Time will tell, but the initial returns aren't favorable.