Posey's agent wants rule change

[TheWizard]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=6592212
Didn't see this posted anywhere - I'm sure most, if not all, of you saw the Buster Posey collision at home plate. Poor kid is out for the season after that, but it was a clean play. Now his agent is proposing a rule change:

"You leave players way too vulnerable," Berry said. "I can tell you Major League Baseball is less than it was before [Posey's injury]. It's stupid. I don't know if this ends up leading to a rule change, but it should. The guy [at the plate] is too exposed.

"If you go helmet to helmet in the NFL, it's a $100,000 fine, but in baseball, you have a situation in which runners are [slamming into] fielders. It's brutal. It's borderline shocking. It just stinks for baseball. I'm going to call Major League Baseball and put this on the radar. Because it's just wrong."

Do any of you agree with him? Personally, I don't think that the helmet-to-helmet NFL analogy is a good one. Catcher is the most physically demanding position on the field, but I think these kinds of plays are a fair part of the game and this was an unfortunate accident.  Is this the case of an agent pissed that his best player just got injured, or is there a legit argument here?

[EasTexAstro]

http://www.spikesnstars.com/forums/index.php?topic=112793.msg379339#msg379339

[JimR]

it did not look like a vicious collision to me. hard, but clean if collisions are allowed.

[Ron Brand]

I didn't see him whining about this before his meal ticket got hurt.

[OregonStrosFan]

I didn't see him whining about this before his meal ticket got hurt.

Giants were concerned for Posey prior to the injury (not blocking the plate related though). LINK

[Matt]

Giants were concerned for Posey prior to the injury (not blocking the plate related though). LINK

If he's using a true certified goalie mask than he should be fine. Those masks can handle quite a bit of blunt force to them.

[BUWebguy]

it did not look like a vicious collision to me. hard, but clean if collisions are allowed.

I could be wrong, but I think that's the agent's point -- that such collisions, even clean by normal standards, should not be allowed.

Perhaps I'm callous, but if you don't want that threat, maybe don't be a catcher.

[JimR]

I could be wrong, but I think that's the agent's point -- that such collisions, even clean by normal standards, should not be allowed.

yes, i understood that.

[Bench]

Perhaps I'm callous, but if you don't want that threat, maybe don't be a catcher.

Also, aren't collisions riskier for the guy not wearing pads and helmets and shin-guards? 

[Lurch]

I didn't see him whining about this before his meal ticket got hurt.

Would it impact him?

[EasTexAstro]

Also, aren't collisions riskier for the guy not wearing pads and helmets and shin-guards?  

Not if the runner is braced for impact and the catcher is stretched, trying to catch the ball.

There would have to be an adjustment on both sides of the play, and I am not sure how it would work. Tell the runner he can't run over the catcher, but if the catcher is in the way, what is he supposed to do? Tell the catcher he can't block the plate unless he can make the play? Bang-bang plays are hard to judge.

Ausmus seemed pretty good at deciding on when to go for the play, but he wasn't known (at least I didn't think) he was an aggressive, plate bocking catcher. He wanted to make the play, but he also wanted to do it safely.

I don't like the runners trying to bowl over the catcher. Bourn made a nice, safe slide. Lots of player avoid the contact. Some seem to look to make the big hit. Some of them pay for it, or the catcher does.

Do you make it an ump's call? The catcher really must have a play to block the plate, or the runner must not tackle the catcher if he sees the ball already there? I'm not sure that is a good idea.

[Ron Brand]

Would it impact him?

It certainly could. I have a hard time taking whatever an agent or a lawyer representing a party says without a serious grain of salt, since their job is to advocate their client's value or position to the best of their ability.

[JimR]

It certainly could. I have a hard time taking whatever an agent or a lawyer representing a party says without a serious grain of salt, since their job is to advocate their client's value or position to the best of their ability.

it is possible to advocate without lying.

[Ron Brand]

it is possible to advocate without lying.

Slow down, counselor. I never said shit about lying. What I was trying to say was that he was in a distinctly self-serving position and because of that some skepticism is warranted on first blush. He may be right, he may be wrong but his business relationship colors the question.  A slicker advocate would have gotten a few independent entities to start the fire and then swooped in to fan the flames.

I meant no disrespect to lawyers or agents as professionals.

[Reuben]

It certainly could. I have a hard time taking whatever an agent or a lawyer representing a party says without a serious grain of salt, since their job is to advocate their client's value or position to the best of their ability.

I don't know what Posey's contract situation is, but if he never regains his form as a result of this injury, then that's obviously millions of lost dollars for the agent. Possibly even starting in a year or so when he first comes up for arbitration.

[TheWizard]

Also, aren't collisions riskier for the guy not wearing pads and helmets and shin-guards? 

Probably hurts more in the short-term for the guy wearing no pads, but the biggest injury risk (at least to the lower extremities) is the catcher with his feet planted - having an impact on your legs or knees with yourself planted is the biggest risk for ligament damage/broken bones.

[Lurch]

I didn't see him whining about this before his meal ticket got hurt.

I meant no disrespect to lawyers or agents as professionals.

No?

[Ron Brand]

No?

Fuck no, Lurch. As a group, I mean no disrespect to them. I'm sorry if I come off too snide or took one pot-shot too many at a shadowy target, but I have a lot of respect for lawyers and agents as professionals. I don't have a specific ax to grind with this guy, but I think it's a legitimate issue to raise that he banks on the back of a player who plays a position that is pretty injury-prone and then he wants to change the rules of the game when his guy gets hurt. That doesn't impugn the character of lawyers or agents. I think it's easy to see that he has a conflict of interest here, or at least the appearance of one, and in the absence of any other input from anywhere else should be viewed with at least some initial skepticism.

[Mr. Happy]

Leave the rules alone. This has been going on forever in baseball. It's unfortunate that Posey got hurt. The Giants know that his ultimate future is at 1B.

[JimR]

I meant no disrespect to lawyers or agents as professionals.

"I have a hard time taking whatever an agent or a lawyer representing a party says without a serious grain of salt"

[Ron Brand]

"I have a hard time taking whatever an agent or a lawyer representing a party says without a serious grain of salt"

You call skepticism disrespect? I don't.

It's not disrespectful to doubt a position before you investigate it further.

[HudsonHawk]

Being both a catcher, and someone who's familiar with Newtonian physics, I can tell you that both the runner and the catcher receive quite a blow on a collision.  However, the runner always knows it's coming.  The catcher doesn't.  It's that fact that puts the catcher in the most danger.  The pads do little in a collision, though the mask is helpful if you get hit in the face.  I've always shed the mask, but catchers today are taught to never remove it, especially the hockey-style masks.

My opinion:  I'm sympathetic to catchers, but there is inherent risk in the position.  Know how to set up and don't block the plate without the ball, and it's a pretty rare occurrence.  No need to go changing the rules.  If, however, a runner blatantly goes out of his way to run into a guy, he should be disciplined accordingly.

[Astroholic]

shouldnt that also be the case for the runner 'sliding' into second to break up the double play.  Hell lets do like the NFL and put dresses on them.  NTTAWWT.

[Noe]

You call skepticism disrespect? I don't.

It's not disrespectful to doubt a position before you investigate it further.

There is always a fine line between a vested interest expressing a concern (validity is left to those in charge in this case) and a vested interest expressing a concern because of the greater good.  An advocate for change in laws, for instance, if they are bias will be dismissed as having an agenda.  I fear we, as a society, sometimes throw the baby out with the bath water at that point because we are conditioned to question the messenger and not the message.

In this case, the message is tainted by the vested interest, but I find myself wondering if rule changes would in fact help or take away from the game.  Right now, I am clearly sitting on the fence on this one.

[Astroholic]

There is always a fine line between a vested interest expressing a concern (validity is left to those in charge in this case) and a vested interest expressing a concern because of the greater good.  An advocate for change in laws, for instance, if they are bias will be dismissed as having an agenda.  I fear we, as a society, sometimes throw the baby out with the bath water at that point because we are conditioned to question the messenger and not the message.

In this case, the message is tainted by the vested interest, but I find myself wondering if rule changes would in fact help or take away from the game.  Right now, I am clearly sitting on the fence on this one.

A rule change would include interpretation of said rule (another way for ump to interject themselves into the game).  There is already a rule.  It is not enforced now, so how will adding a new rule help?

[austro]

In this case, the message is tainted by the vested interest, but I find myself wondering if rule changes would in fact help or take away from the game.  Right now, I am clearly sitting on the fence on this one.

Short of completely banning blocking and collisions, I just don't see any way of changing the rules that won't give one side a big advantage (as well as make the umpire's job even tougher).

[Noe]

A rule change would include interpretation of said rule (another way for ump to interject themselves into the game).  There is already a rule.  It is not enforced now, so how will adding a new rule help?

Good point.  So did pointing to the strike zone rules to umpires improve the game or retract from it?  For years, the American League was known as the high strike zone league and the National League the low strike zone league.  Some say it was because both American League and National League umpires were segregated at one time and the American League umpires used giant foam pillows as chest protectors.  The low strike was hard to call because, simply put, they could not squat as easily as a National League umpire.

So over time, American League umpires, even without the giant heart shaped foam pad, just basically *developed* their own strike zone.  And thus, the American League umpires just basically ignored the low strike for many a year and with the advent of the DH rule, the game became a farce.  Yes, I said it, a farce.  So the league didn't change the strikezone rules, they did other things:

1. No more American League and National League umpires... it was MLB Umpires... period
2. Re-introduce the strikezone rules to all umpires
3. Evaluate umpires on strikezone calls

It changed the game for the better, but it wasn't because they changed the strikezone rules, they changed the periphery surrounding the rule.

[Reuben]

Looking at the replay, it seems to me that the runner unnecessarily ran Posey over. Posey was clearly giving the runner the outer plate (or even the whole plate, hard to tell)- you can see that he is starting to dive for the outside part of the plate as soon as he catches the ball, as that was where he expected the runner to go. But the runner almost went out of his way to slam into Posey, going straight for the infield side of the plate. A pretty brutal hit, and I'm surprised it was his leg that got hurt and not his head or neck.

I'm not saying I think the runner was being malicious. A tad over-aggressive maybe, but more like poor judgment. He clearly had made up his mind that he was gonna have to take the catcher out. Had this been smirky Albert Pooholes ending our boy Jason Castro's promising 2nd season on such a slide, I might be more outraged.

[OregonStrosFan]

The Dugout has the solution. LINK

[astrosfan76]

Had this been smirky Albert Pooholes ending our boy Jason Castro's promising 2nd season on such a slide, I might be more outraged.

Stark's latest article has Ausmus' reaction to the situation and, among his other thoughts, he brought up a very relevant point (shocker):  

"If this happened to a backup catcher, who was just called up from Triple-A, do you think we'd be having this discussion?" he wondered. "I don't know that we would."

I don't have a problem with the play.  I had more of a problem when Pujols went out of his way to knock Towles over on a couple of years back.  A:  He's our guy and B:  Towles wasn't on the plate when Pujols plowed into him.  Luckily, Towels wasn't hurt.  

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings110527

[sporadic]

good article.  Notice further down the page?

• The Astros continue to tell people that when they project which pieces they would need to build a winner down the road, they can't envision Hunter Pence not being a central part of that. But one scout who has seen Pence a lot says he's not the kind of player you construct a team around.

"He's a good player, but I see him as more of a complementary piece," the scout said. "He's the kind of guy you win with if you have two other major run-producers around him. I don't want to give the impression I don't like the guy. I like him a lot. But he's not an impact guy to the point that should prohibit them from trading him for a quality starting pitcher and another piece."

YA THINK???

[Limey]

The Onion weighs in on the Posey story:

Gruesome Home Plate Collision Reawakens Nation’s Love Affair With Baseball

SAN FRANCISCO—The people of the United States confirmed this week that seeing a horrific home plate collision fracture the left ankle and shred the ligaments of Giants catcher Buster Posey on May 25 provided exactly the spark they needed to renew their love affair with baseball.

[Ebby Calvin]

Johnny Bench weighs in.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Johnny Bench weighs in.

I think the man might know what he is talking about.

[Ty in Tampa]

Since we're posting ESPN links, not sure if you guys saw this but I though he was a bit out of line. For a GM anyway...

[HudsonHawk]

I think the man might know what he is talking about.

Bench is spot on.  Of course.  If you don't have the ball, you *have* to show the runner the plate.  This does several things, including *not* putting the runner between you and the ball, as well as knowing where the runner is going to be, which is especially important on a throw from CF or RF, when you don't really see the runner well.  I think Posey tried to do that, but being on your knees and leaning back over the path of the runner is simply a recipe for disaster. 

[Mr. Happy]

Since we're posting ESPN links, not sure if you guys saw this but I though he was a bit out of line. For a GM anyway...

He was just frustrated. You can bet that the Giants will go headhunting for that guy at some point. And I don't blame them. It's part of the game.

[astrosfan76]

He was just frustrated. You can bet that the Giants will go headhunting for that guy at some point. And I don't blame them. It's part of the game.

Yeah, but it was 8 days later.  A post-game or next day interview would be different, but this wasn't a heat of the moment comment.  I wouldn't be surprised if the Giants try to retaliate in August, but I bet there will be some heavy-handed warnings issued beforehand.  Depending on what they do and who does it, it might not be worth doing something dumb in the middle of a pennant chase.