Author Topic: Astros exist, film at 11.  (Read 16385 times)

GreatBagwellsBeard

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Astros exist, film at 11.
« on: May 18, 2011, 12:41:02 pm »
ESPN disects the decline.

No hyperbole.   No Ed Wade hate.  The number one reason is the draft miscues.  Has someone been reading SnS?
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jbm

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2011, 01:01:41 pm »
I agree with the general thesis, but can do without the "so and so was better than Bogusevic" crap.  That line of argument is unpersuasive, especially applied to picks that far down.  Just say that Bogey, like many other high picks, didn't pan out as thought. Leave it at that.


Jacksonian

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2011, 01:10:02 pm »
I agree with the general thesis, but can do without the "so and so was better than Bogusevic" crap.  That line of argument is unpersuasive, especially applied to picks that far down.  Just say that Bogey, like many other high picks, didn't pan out as thought. Leave it at that.



I have similar thoughts.  And would like to add I don't like his note of Smoak over Castro.  Wade showed you can pick up a 1b prospect for relatively little; showing that in the draft valuing a quality player at an in demand position is a good thing.  Wade essentially got Wallace for the equivalent of Jay Austin.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2011, 01:27:58 pm »
Wade showed you can pick up a 1b prospect for relatively little

What 1B prospect has he picked up on the cheap?
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BudGirl

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2011, 01:34:39 pm »
What 1B prospect has he picked up on the cheap?

Wallace???
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Jacksonian

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2011, 01:37:22 pm »
What 1B prospect has he picked up on the cheap?

Wade essentially got Wallace for the equivalent of Jay Austin.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2011, 01:46:14 pm »
Wade essentially got Wallace for the equivalent of Jay Austin.

He essentially got Wallace for Roy Oswalt or $11MM, depending on how you look at it.  Neither is particularly cheap.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2011, 01:52:21 pm »
He essentially got Wallace for Roy Oswalt or $11MM, depending on how you look at it.  Neither is particularly cheap.

Happ, Villar, and Gose for Oswalt.  Good/bad dunno.

He got Wallace for Gose alone because Toronto desperately wanted Gose back.  Gose is a good defender but hasn't distinguished himself offensively.  Cheap.
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Limey

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2011, 01:59:17 pm »
He essentially got Wallace for Roy Oswalt or $11MM, depending on how you look at it.  Neither is particularly cheap.

It is considering that Oswalt had packed up his tractor already.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2011, 02:02:09 pm »
Happ, Villar, and Gose for Oswalt.  Good/bad dunno.

He got Wallace for Gose alone because Toronto desperately wanted Gose back.  Gose is a good defender but hasn't distinguished himself offensively.  Cheap.

Yeah, but he had to give up Oswalt and a heap of cash to get Gose in the first place.  Not that it wasn't a good deal, but I think it's really reaching to imply that Wade simply picked up Wallace without much in effort/cost.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

HudsonHawk

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2011, 02:03:35 pm »
It is considering that Oswalt had packed up his tractor already.

No it's not, no matter how you slice it.  Oswalt is a top of the rotation Major League starting pitcher.  $11MM is $11MM.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Limey

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2011, 02:07:52 pm »
No it's not, no matter how you slice it.  Oswalt is a top of the rotation Major League starting pitcher.  $11MM is $11MM.

Tell that to the New York Metoffs.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2011, 02:11:08 pm »
Yeah, but he had to give up Oswalt and a heap of cash to get Gose in the first place.  Not that it wasn't a good deal, but I think it's really reaching to imply that Wade simply picked up Wallace without much in effort/cost.

I have not seen an article indicating that the deal with the Phillies would not have happened if Gose were not included.  I have only seen that Oswalt was told it was the Phillies or nothing.

I know the Blue Jays had been trying to get Gose for a year prior to the deal.  If the Blue Jays' desire was part of how and why Wade made the deal with the Phillies I have not read nor heard it.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2011, 02:16:38 pm »
I have similar thoughts.  And would like to add I don't like his note of Smoak over Castro.  Wade showed you can pick up a 1b prospect for relatively little; showing that in the draft valuing a quality player at an in demand position is a good thing. 

Agreed generally.  Good 1st base prospects don't exactly grow on trees, but they are a heck of a lot easier to find than good catching prospects.  I'm just fine with Castro over Smoak!
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HudsonHawk

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2011, 02:21:12 pm »
I have not seen an article indicating that the deal with the Phillies would not have happened if Gose were not included.  I have only seen that Oswalt was told it was the Phillies or nothing.

I know the Blue Jays had been trying to get Gose for a year prior to the deal.  If the Blue Jays' desire was part of how and why Wade made the deal with the Phillies I have not read nor heard it.

I'm not saying it was.  I don't know  I'm saying it's disengenuous to say that the Astros didn't give up much in acquiring Wallace.  They gave up Oswalt and a lot of cash.  Irrespective of whether or not such was *required*, that was the end result.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2011, 02:31:36 pm »
I'm not saying it was.  I don't know  I'm saying it's disengenuous to say that the Astros didn't give up much in acquiring Wallace.  They gave up Oswalt and a lot of cash.  Irrespective of whether or not such was *required*, that was the end result.

Moving this in a new direction, at what point would you not associate dealing Gose for Wallace with the Oswalt deal.  How long would Gose have needed to be in the Astros' system?

To me, unless the 3 teams are working together, it is immediate.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2011, 02:31:57 pm »
Would Toronto have wanted more for Wallace if Gose was traded to the Astros for Moehler and $99 bucks?

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2011, 02:39:27 pm »
Moving this in a new direction, at what point would you not associate dealing Gose for Wallace with the Oswalt deal.  How long would Gose have needed to be in the Astros' system?

I don't know...more than 4 or 5 hours? I just don't see how you can *not* associate them.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2011, 02:41:22 pm »
No it's not, no matter how you slice it.  Oswalt is a top of the rotation Major League starting pitcher.  $11MM is $11MM.

Oswalt had quit.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2011, 02:43:47 pm »
Would Toronto have wanted more for Wallace if Gose was traded to the Astros for Moehler and $99 bucks?

I'm sure what the Astros gave up to get Gose is irrelevant to the Blue Jays.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

HudsonHawk

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2011, 02:44:37 pm »
Oswalt had quit.

But he still had value.  That's my point.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2011, 02:53:07 pm »
I'm sure what the Astros gave up to get Gose is irrelevant to the Blue Jays.

So, one can get a 1b prospect for the equivalent of Jay Austin/Gose?

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2011, 02:54:54 pm »
I don't know...more than 4 or 5 hours? I just don't see how you can *not* associate them.

I certainly see what you are saying.  But I cannot get past the notion that Oswalt was going to the Phillies regardless.  Did the Astros need Gose to get Wallace?  Probably.  Maybe certainly.  But Oswalt was going nonetheless.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2011, 02:56:18 pm »
So, one can get a 1b prospect for the equivalent of Jay Austin/Gose?

That's what the Blue Jays wanted for Wallace.  So, yes.  That's why I like the way Wade operated in that draft and disagree with the author of the article.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2011, 02:57:27 pm »
So, one can get a 1b prospect for the equivalent of Jay Austin/Gose?

Apparently.  What's you point?
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2011, 02:59:01 pm »
I certainly see what you are saying.  But I cannot get past the notion that Oswalt was going to the Phillies regardless.  Did the Astros need Gose to get Wallace?  Probably.  Maybe certainly.  But Oswalt was going nonetheless.

Agreed.  But given the circumstances, I don't think you can consider the deal for Wallace without also considering the deal for Oswalt.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2011, 02:59:41 pm »
That's what the Blue Jays wanted for Wallace.  So, yes.  That's why I like the way Wade operated in that draft and disagree with the author of the article.

I comepletey understand your point, and agree.  It makes perfect sense to me.  Gose was the value the Jays put on Wallace.  The Oswalt stuff is irrelevant to the Jays.  They are either independent transactions, or the Jays are complete fools.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2011, 03:00:55 pm »
I comepletey understand your point, and agree.  It makes perfect sense to me.  Gose was the value the Jays put on Wallace.  The Oswalt stuff is irrelevant to the Jays.  They are either independent transactions, or the Jays are complete fools.

The Jays are irrelvant to the discussion.  This is about what the Astros gave up to get Wallace, not what the Jays got in return for him.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2011, 03:01:24 pm »
Agreed.  But given the circumstances, I don't think you can consider the deal for Wallace without also considering the deal for Oswalt.

Fair enough.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2011, 03:03:44 pm »
or the Jays are complete fools.

Unless their faith in Gose is realized.  I believe they believe Gose can be a Kenny Lofton type player.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2011, 03:05:42 pm »
Unless their faith in Gose is realized.  I believe they believe Gose can be a Kenny Lofton type player.

Of all the sour deals the Astros have made in the last 30 years, losing Lofton hurt the most.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2011, 03:10:37 pm »
Unless their faith in Gose is realized.  I believe they believe Gose can be a Kenny Lofton type player.

Nevermind.  My point is essentially that the two transactions are completely independent.  I was trying to illustrate that point by getting people to look at it from the Jay's perspective.  Oswalt and his value had nothing to to do with the Jay's calculus. 

From the Jay's persepective, they gave up a 1b prospect for Gose, thus the claim that one can acquire a 1b prospect for a speedy defensive center fielder has a basis in reality.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2011, 03:15:44 pm »
Nevermind.  My point is essentially that the two transactions are completely independent.  I was trying to illustrate that point by getting people to look at it from the Jay's perspective.  Oswalt and his value had nothing to to do with the Jay's calculus.

No one has argued that it has.  This is not about hypotheticals involving the Jays, it's about reality involving the Astros.

Quote
From the Jay's persepective, they gave up a 1b prospect for Gose, thus the claim that one can acquire a 1b prospect for a speedy defensive center fielder has a basis in reality.

But in this instance, you can't discuss what the Astros gave up to get Wallace without discussing what they gave up to get Gose.  Therefore, you can't argue the Wallace deal demonstrated Wade's ability to get a 1B prospect for little.  He didn't. 
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 03:17:17 pm by HudsonHawk »
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2011, 03:18:12 pm »


But in this instance, you can't discuss what the Astros gave up to get Wallace without discussing what they gave up to get Gose.

That was point about Moehler.  If the Phillies were stupid enough to give the Astros Gose for Moehler, would you then conclude that the value of Wallace equalled Moehler?

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2011, 03:29:21 pm »
No one has argued that it has.  This is not about hypotheticals involving the Jays, it's about reality involving the Astros.

But in this instance, you can't discuss what the Astros gave up to get Wallace without discussing what they gave up to get Gose.  Therefore, you can't argue the Wallace deal demonstrated Wade's ability to get a 1B prospect for little.  He didn't. 

You don't know what they gave up to get Gose.  You only know he was part of the deal.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2011, 03:34:15 pm »
y'all need to give up. HH will never stop.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2011, 03:45:25 pm »
That was point about Moehler.  If the Phillies were stupid enough to give the Astros Gose for Moehler, would you then conclude that the value of Wallace equalled Moehler?

Not necessarily. And again, this is not about some hypothetical deal, it's about what actually happened.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2011, 03:45:59 pm »
y'all need to give up. HH will never stop.

I'm not in it to win it.  Just talkin'.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2011, 03:49:39 pm »
You don't know what they gave up to get Gose.  You only know he was part of the deal.

I know exactly what they gave up. It was one deal. You can't assign some arbitrary value to each component of it.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2011, 03:49:47 pm »
Not necessarily. And again, this is not about some hypothetical deal, it's about what actually happened.

What actually happened was Gose for Wallace, not Oswalt and $11M for Wallace.   
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2011, 03:52:10 pm »
I'm not in it to win it.  Just talkin'.

Me too. Unlike some people, I don't view every discussion as some sort of competition.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2011, 03:55:35 pm »
I'm not saying it was.  I don't know  I'm saying it's disengenuous to say that the Astros didn't give up much in acquiring Wallace.  They gave up Oswalt and a lot of cash.  Irrespective of whether or not such was *required*, that was the end result.

"What am I?  Gose liver?" - JA Happ

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2011, 04:01:36 pm »
What actually happened was Gose for Wallace, not Oswalt and $11M for Wallace.  

Oswalt and 11 million for Gose, Happ and a minor leaguer.  That was Wade's deal to jettison a pitcher, top caliber, ACE guy, who basically quit on the team.  A three for one making lemonade out of a lemon player.

Then, remarkably within a few minutes of that consumated deal, the Jays said they'd flip Wallace for Gose.  The deal then became, on paper - Wallace, JA Happ and a minor leaguer.  A much better deal than anyone can expect from a deal that basically had no real good ending in sight for Houston.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2011, 04:04:22 pm »
Oswalt and 11 million for Gose, Happ and a minor leaguer.  That was Wade's deal to jettison a pitcher, top caliber, ACE guy, who basically quit on the team.  A three for one making lemonade out of a lemon player.

Then, remarkably within a few minutes of that consumated deal, the Jays said they'd flip Wallace for Gose.  The deal then became, on paper - Wallace, JA Happ and a minor leaguer.  A much better deal than anyone can expect from a deal that basically had no real good ending in sight for Houston.

Right.  The deal with the Phillies was happening anyway.  Saying the Astros traded Oswalt and $11M for Wallace is disingenuous.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2011, 04:05:16 pm »
You can't assign some arbitrary value to each component of it.

Unless that's exactly what happened.  For all you and I know Wade agreed to take on $.5mil more of Oswalt's contract for the Phillies to add Gose to the deal.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #45 on: May 18, 2011, 04:07:52 pm »
BTW - about the article.  I have no real qualms with what is said about McLane, but there is the Wayne Huzienga type of bad owner and then there is the Drayton McLane misfiring and his own worse enemy type of owner.  They are not the same and articles like this tend to lump the bad owners all in one barrel.

Like it or not, McLane was a good owner in terms of heart and desire to win (and he listened to fans, which was his ultimate downfall, but a staple for good business).  If a fan dares to point a finger at McLane about how badly the team has been run since 2005, then they have four fingers pointing back at them (right Bum?).  I don't have the time right now to write anything of substance to back up my opinion/assertion, but I know that:

1. McLane acted as an owner who *loved* this team and that led to his downfall
2. McLane did not understand baseball and that added to the downfall
3. McLane knows business and is great at it, and business 101 (the WalMart way if you will) is listen to the customers and give them what *they* want.  The last few years is the residual effect of customer input and that just does not work well in baseball.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 04:10:43 pm by Noe in Austin »

Noe

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #46 on: May 18, 2011, 04:08:10 pm »
Right.  The deal with the Phillies was happening anyway.  Saying the Astros traded Oswalt and $11M for Wallace is disingenuous.


Agreed.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #47 on: May 18, 2011, 04:13:10 pm »
on paper - Wallace, JA Happ and a minor leaguer.  A much better deal than anyone can expect from a deal that basically had no real good ending in sight for Houston.

Not on paper, realistically maybe, but that's all.  On paper it is 2 different trades.  And the Oswalt to Phillies was going to happen anyway.  The Jays saw a player they coveted being moved and made an offer.

Did the Oswalt deal lead to the Wallace deal?  Yes.  Accidentally, maybe.  Purposely, we'll likely never know.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #48 on: May 18, 2011, 04:15:16 pm »
Not on paper, realistically maybe, but that's all.  On paper it is 2 different trades.  And the Oswalt to Phillies was going to happen anyway.  The Jays saw a player they coveted being moved and made an offer.

Did the Oswalt deal lead to the Wallace deal?  Yes.  Accidentally, maybe.  Purposely, we'll likely never know.

Oh, I agree... my "on paper" statement was meant as a "as it turned out", whether by happenstance or planned activity (don't know for sure).  One thing for sure, Wade made good lemonade that day, even with the 11 million kicked in.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #49 on: May 18, 2011, 04:22:20 pm »
Oh, one more thing: Justin Smoak?  They really still want to argue the value of the next DH in the making in the American League over a good defensive catcher who has the potential to hit well in the majors?  See, this is what perplexes me: The Houston Astros are a National League team and cannot and should not build a team like the Texas Rangers would: all bats, no defense, no pitching (although much of that changed with Nolan Ryan coming aboard and some good drafts of pitchers ahead of him).

If the author wanted to make a solid point, he need not focus on a DH like Smoak, he needed to point to the years Gerry Hunsicker had the farm system rated numero uno in the MLB.  How?  By getting the best arms available through good scouting (the David Lakey kind, until he and Gerry had a fall out).  Houston needs to return to the days that drafting *AND* development centered around good young arms, and that included the kids out of the Venezuelan Academy.  There was a day when Houston could tout arms like Roy Oswalt, Tim Redding, Wilfredo Rodriquez, Carlos Hernandez, and many others all bunched up ready to move up to the majors.

When Jim Crane says that he wants to build back the club the right way, that doesn't necessarily mean drafting a Justin Smoak.  I think it means drafting a Roy Oswalt instead.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 04:27:30 pm by Noe in Austin »

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #50 on: May 18, 2011, 04:26:59 pm »
Not on paper, realistically maybe, but that's all.  On paper it is 2 different trades.  And the Oswalt to Phillies was going to happen anyway.  The Jays saw a player they coveted being moved and made an offer.

Did the Oswalt deal lead to the Wallace deal?  Yes.  Accidentally, maybe.  Purposely, we'll likely never know.

Oh one other thing, trading for Wallace gave Wade an opportunity to explore dealing Berkman, which he did.  The likelihood Berkman would not have been traded last year was evident until Wallace showed up at Wade's door.  Perhaps they still would have traded Berkman and moved Lee to first and brought up Bogey to see if he was a major leaguer or not.  But I think when Wallace came aboard it actually solidified the idea that trading Berkman was going to happen.  That became Villar and Melancon.

So if we take the logic of consumated trades all lumped together, then you'd have:

Oswalt, 11 million and Berkman for Wallace, Happ, Villar, Melancon, and another minor leaguer.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #51 on: May 18, 2011, 04:34:57 pm »
Oh one other thing, trading for Wallace gave Wade an opportunity to explore dealing Berkman, which he did.  The likelihood Berkman would not have been traded last year was evident until Wallace showed up at Wade's door.  Perhaps they still would have traded Berkman and moved Lee to first and brought up Bogey to see if he was a major leaguer or not.  But I think when Wallace came aboard it actually solidified the idea that trading Berkman was going to happen.  That became Villar and Melancon.

So if we take the logic of consumated trades all lumped together, then you'd have:

Oswalt, 11 million and Berkman for Wallace, Happ, Villar, Melancon, and another minor leaguer.

no money went with berkman?
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #52 on: May 18, 2011, 04:36:01 pm »
Oh one other thing, trading for Wallace gave Wade an opportunity to explore dealing Berkman, which he did.  The likelihood Berkman would not have been traded last year was evident until Wallace showed up at Wade's door.  Perhaps they still would have traded Berkman and moved Lee to first and brought up Bogey to see if he was a major leaguer or not.  But I think when Wallace came aboard it actually solidified the idea that trading Berkman was going to happen.  That became Villar Paredes and Melancon.

So if we take the logic of consumated trades all lumped together, then you'd have:

Oswalt, 11 million and Berkman for Wallace, Happ, Villar, Melancon, and another minor leaguer Paredes.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #53 on: May 18, 2011, 04:39:00 pm »
If the author wanted to make a solid point, he need not focus on a DH like Smoak, he needed to point to the years Gerry Hunsicker had the farm system rated numero uno in the MLB.  How?  By getting the best arms available through good scouting (the David Lakey kind, until he and Gerry had a fall out).  Houston needs to return to the days that drafting *AND* development centered around good young arms, and that included the kids out of the Venezuelan Academy.  There was a day when Houston could tout arms like Roy Oswalt, Tim Redding, Wilfredo Rodriquez, Carlos Hernandez, and many others all bunched up ready to move up to the majors.

When Jim Crane says that he wants to build back the club the right way, that doesn't necessarily mean drafting a Justin Smoak.  I think it means drafting a Roy Oswalt instead.

The great thing about that is when you're loaded with arms, everybody wants to trade with you too.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #54 on: May 18, 2011, 04:42:00 pm »
The great thing about that is when you're loaded with arms, everybody wants to trade with you too.

We use to have a saying back in the days of TalkZone v1 (astrosconnection.com) "With great arms in your system, you can trade for all the bats you need.... it's harder the other way around."

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2011, 04:42:28 pm »
FIFmyobsessivecompulsions.

Thanks, could not remember his name!

Noe

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #56 on: May 18, 2011, 04:43:17 pm »
no money went with berkman?


If there was, I don't want to know about it.  Giving the Yankees money in a trade seems so un-American to me!

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #57 on: May 18, 2011, 04:47:35 pm »
Another thing about the Gose-for-Wallace trade: To me there is a big difference between getting a guy like Smoak out of college in 2008, and getting a guy in 2010 like Wallace who has a track record of rapid success in the minor leagues, up to and including AAA. There is some value in getting a guy that you don't have that doubt in the back of your mind "will he hold up over an every-day minor league season? Will he hit a wall when he gets to AA and faces a good, well-located breaking ball?" etc. Which all brings that player closer to one that you feel has a good chance to succeed in the Majors.

That said, we'll never know for certain what kind of budget limits McLane gave Wade/Heck from 2008 on, and if it restricted them at all from getting certain players they wanted.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #58 on: May 18, 2011, 04:48:56 pm »
Noe, don't read this or this
.


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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #59 on: May 18, 2011, 04:55:42 pm »
Another thing about the Gose-for-Wallace trade: To me there is a big difference between getting a guy like Smoak out of college in 2008, and getting a guy in 2010 like Wallace who has a track record of rapid success in the minor leagues, up to and including AAA. There is some value in getting a guy that you don't have that doubt in the back of your mind "will he hold up over an every-day minor league season? Will he hit a wall when he gets to AA and faces a good, well-located breaking ball?" etc. Which all brings that player closer to one that you feel has a good chance to succeed in the Majors.

That said, we'll never know for certain what kind of budget limits McLane gave Wade/Heck from 2008 on, and if it restricted them at all from getting certain players they wanted.

The budget limits are certainly well documented in terms of holding true to the Commissioner's edict (which every sane organization ignored).  I don't think Wade/Heck had much of the same angst as Purpura and Riccardini did in terms of budget and slot money.  I really believe that Wade/Heck have drafted players they wanted and Smoak was not projecting well as a National Leaguer (any more than Cust did back in the day for Arizona).  I think Jason Castro was just what a team in the National League covets:

1. Up the middle defense (CF, C, SS, 2nd)
2. Can hit, the swing is very good, with adjustments can be a solid contributor to a team.

So take a quick look at what Wade/Heck did: Castro (C), Meir (SS), DeShields (2nd), Austin (CF) are some of the highlights of the draft for them plus all the arms they went for.  The corner men who provide offense (RF, LF, 1st, 3rd) tend to be easier to find as supplemental players or even FA acquires.  Drafting corner men for their offense really means you're just one or two players away from being outstanding and that was not where Houston was.

They were quietly trying to re-build with solid defense and just enough offense in their draft choices.  Nothing outstanding has materialized from that yet.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #60 on: May 18, 2011, 04:58:05 pm »
Noe, don't read this or this
.

Too late.  4 million bones to wipe the slate clean.  It was sunken cost any way, because the option is to pay more than that to keep him around. I think in Oswalt's case, it was money he was owed for *this* year that the Astros chipped in to pay.  There is a slight difference.  In short, the Astros saved themselves 3.5 million in the Berkman deal.  Weird, I know.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #61 on: May 18, 2011, 05:08:22 pm »
...
So take a quick look at what Wade/Heck did: Castro (C), Meir (SS), DeShields (2nd), Austin (CF) are some of the highlights of the draft for them plus all the arms they went for.  The corner men who provide offense (RF, LF, 1st, 3rd) tend to be easier to find as supplemental players or even FA acquires.  Drafting corner men for their offense really means you're just one or two players away from being outstanding and that was not where Houston was.

They were quietly trying to re-build with solid defense and just enough offense in their draft choices.  Nothing outstanding has materialized from that yet.
Well said. Austin Wates could fit in there too. I just wonder if there were other players, not talking about Smoak-type players, but athletic, up-the-middle guys, who they wanted but weren't given the budget to sign. Jacksonian or other BR guys may remember who else fit that mold in the last few years that they had a chance to draft but didn't. And, while they've signed almost every pick, there were a few guys (Jacoby Jones for one...was he a SS?) whom they couldn't sign.
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Noe

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #62 on: May 18, 2011, 05:18:50 pm »
Well said. Austin Wates could fit in there too. I just wonder if there were other players, not talking about Smoak-type players, but athletic, up-the-middle guys, who they wanted but weren't given the budget to sign. Jacksonian or other BR guys may remember who else fit that mold in the last few years that they had a chance to draft but didn't. And, while they've signed almost every pick, there were a few guys (Jacoby Jones for one...was he a SS?) whom they couldn't sign.

I remember a third baseman (oddly enough) and a CF who wanted much more than slot money.  And in terms of one of them, they drafted him because they agreed to a deal in principle and when drafted, the kid and his advisor asked for way much more.  Not wanting to say the kid was unethical, but certainly he got some advice from an advisor who oversold his value a bit.  Houston got blamed for being stingy on that one and the truth was, the kid went back on his word and Houston could not afford the new price.

One other kid had college football to use as leverage to get more money and Houston did not relent.  In short, Tim Purpura looked like a man who did not know what he was doing by and large after those types of episodes.  Couple in that McLane did mandate they stay within slot money suggestions by the commissioner and Houston basically had bad drafting from the start.

But back to McLane's influence on the draft: Yes, he had a lot more influence during Purpura than he has now.  However, there is still a need to re-build and baseball drafts tend to be a lot more hit or miss than other major league drafts.  But I will stick to one thing: if you're drafting guys just because they can hit, then Max Sapp doesn't look like a bad draft after all. hehe!

No, the most prudent thing a National League team should do is look to trade for good young talent at key positions if possible, but definitely draft up the middle.  Then fill out the rest from there.  You can find another Hunter Pence somewhere, even trade for his type... but be sure you draft a Roy Oswalt any time you can and repeat, repeat, repeat.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #63 on: May 18, 2011, 05:22:16 pm »
You can find another Hunter Pence somewhere, even trade for his type... but be sure you draft a Roy Oswalt any time you can and repeat, repeat, repeat.
Exactly ... I really only became a bus rider when Round Rock became the home of the future Astros, and this was the mantra at that time.  Watching Roy that first year after he got called up for a spot start and made it impossible to send him back to Kissimmee was a treat.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #64 on: May 18, 2011, 05:27:10 pm »
Right.  The deal with the Phillies was happening anyway.  Saying the Astros traded Oswalt and $11M for Wallace is disingenuous.

Not as much as saying they were able to acquire Wallace for relatively little.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #65 on: May 18, 2011, 05:29:15 pm »
Spack??
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #66 on: May 18, 2011, 05:30:13 pm »
Unless that's exactly what happened.  For all you and I know Wade agreed to take on $.5mil more of Oswalt's contract for the Phillies to add Gose to the deal.
.   

That doesn't matter. They still gave up Oswalt and $11MM in the deal that acquired Gose.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #67 on: May 18, 2011, 05:30:29 pm »
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #68 on: May 18, 2011, 05:31:09 pm »
Why?

We are starting on about the 4th or 5th lap here.  Someone needs to declare "done".
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #69 on: May 18, 2011, 05:34:07 pm »
We are starting on about the 4th or 5th lap here.  Someone needs to declare "done".

If you're not interested in reading it, then don't. We don't start deleting posts because someone is disinterested in the thread.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #70 on: May 18, 2011, 05:39:08 pm »
If you're not interested in reading it, then don't. We don't start deleting posts because someone is disinterested in the thread.

If we did that, how would we find the oil?
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #71 on: May 18, 2011, 06:19:11 pm »
.   

That doesn't matter. They still gave up Oswalt and $11MM in the deal that acquired Gose.

Gose, Happ, and Villar.  (*VB is right though*)

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #72 on: May 18, 2011, 06:21:26 pm »
Well said. Austin Wates could fit in there too. I just wonder if there were other players, not talking about Smoak-type players, but athletic, up-the-middle guys, who they wanted but weren't given the budget to sign. Jacksonian or other BR guys may remember who else fit that mold in the last few years that they had a chance to draft but didn't. And, while they've signed almost every pick, there were a few guys (Jacoby Jones for one...was he a SS?) whom they couldn't sign.

There were other guys they were on, like Brett Lawrie, who's currently tearing up AAA, and Aaron Hicks.  The thing, though, and I've brought this up when people belittle the Castro signing as being cheap, is that no one would have said anything if the club had selected one of those two.  They both signed for slot, so it boiled down to the Astros liking Castro more.  They drafted Castro because they liked him, not because he was the cheapest player available.  

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #73 on: May 18, 2011, 06:28:01 pm »
There were other guys they were on, like Brett Lawrie, who's currently tearing up AAA, and Aaron Hicks.  The thing, though, and I've brought this up when people belittle the Castro signing as being cheap, is that no one would have said anything if the club had selected one of those two.  They both signed for slot, so it boiled down to the Astros liking Castro more.  They drafted Castro because they liked him, not because he was the cheapest player available.  

Well said.  An organization that wants to build from farm system up must pay attention to the up the middle players.  They will not be easy to pry away from other organizations unless you're willing to trade top-notch talent yourself (and the days of trading young player for young player are long ago gone).  You can try and sign an up the middle top notch player, but think about that for a minute.  How much does a Carlos Beltran or Alex Rodriquez cost in the open market?  Guys who are like Alfonso Soriano and Carlos Lee should never command that much from a team unless said team is desperate and I think in a way, McLane was desprerate to get fans back into the seats the way they were coming in droves in 2005.  Right time, right place for Carlos Lee (who even gave a discount to McLane, if you can believe that).  Any way, catcher is a very special position if you find the right kid (Mauer is the beast of a find too, if he stays at catcher).  It is hard to pass up potential if you think you have a catcher who is going to be special in the NL.  Catcher is very close to pitcher in the grand scheme of things so that is why you consider it very hard when you're going to possibly pass up on one that is available.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #74 on: May 18, 2011, 06:31:04 pm »
I remember a third baseman (oddly enough) and a CF who wanted much more than slot money.  And in terms of one of them, they drafted him because they agreed to a deal in principle and when drafted, the kid and his advisor asked for way much more.  Not wanting to say the kid was unethical, but certainly he got some advice from an advisor who oversold his value a bit.  Houston got blamed for being stingy on that one and the truth was, the kid went back on his word and Houston could not afford the new price.

One other kid had college football to use as leverage to get more money and Houston did not relent.  In short, Tim Purpura looked like a man who did not know what he was doing by and large after those types of episodes.  Couple in that McLane did mandate they stay within slot money suggestions by the commissioner and Houston basically had bad drafting from the start.

Derek Dietrich.  The club had a deal for Dietrich, then he fell down the stairs and broke his shoulder/collarbone.  The club, undoubtedly, wanted to wait until he healed before finalizing the deal.  During that time, Dietrich's advisor decided to up the ante and the Astros didn't budge.  

The guy that it sounds like you're describing is Chad Jones.  The club, like with Jacoby Jones, was willing to go way over slot for him, but weren't able to meet his (dad's) price tag.  Jones was a much better football player at LSU, due at least in part to greater effort.  He was drafted by the NY Giants, but unfortunately, was in a major car accident that messed up his leg shortly after being drafted.  

Brett Eibner was the 2nd-rounder they weren't able to sign, who is infamously linked to Dietrich in that year's draft.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #75 on: May 18, 2011, 07:00:08 pm »
Gose, Happ, and Villar.  (*VB is right though*)

If they hadn't IMMEDIATELY flipped Gose for Wallace, your argument would be a lot stronger. I can go to a casino with $1,000 and spend all night pumping nickels into a slot machine. After I've lost $999.95, on my last nickel, I may hit the jackpot and out pops $100. I can tell myself that I "won" $99.95 tonight as I only spent a nickel on that turn. But that ain't telling the whole story.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #76 on: May 18, 2011, 07:24:59 pm »
If they hadn't IMMEDIATELY flipped Gose for Wallace, your argument would be a lot stronger. I can go to a casino with $1,000 and spend all night pumping nickels into a slot machine. After I've lost $999.95, on my last nickel, I may hit the jackpot and out pops $100. I can tell myself that I "won" $99.95 tonight as I only spent a nickel on that turn. But that ain't telling the whole story.

Unless that original 100 dollars was some form of Eastern European currency that was completely worthless to you when you went back home, and instead you got a green cartoony-looking 100 dollar bill brought to you by the US Gubment that is accepted at any of the fine watering holes near you on your final nickel.

That, my friend, is a win.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #77 on: May 18, 2011, 09:40:20 pm »
If they hadn't IMMEDIATELY flipped Gose for Wallace, your argument would be a lot stronger. I can go to a casino with $1,000 and spend all night pumping nickels into a slot machine. After I've lost $999.95, on my last nickel, I may hit the jackpot and out pops $100. I can tell myself that I "won" $99.95 tonight as I only spent a nickel on that turn. But that ain't telling the whole story.
But you do realize that they didn't JUST get Wallace as a result of dealing Oswalt. They also got Happ and Villar, neither of whom are exactly throw-ins.

The greater point that I think Jacksonian was making, which has sort of gotten lost in all this, is that it is easier to find a 1B or LF who can hit than it is to find good up-the-middle guys who can hit. Those kind of players almost never get traded, and tend to cost a bundle on the FA market.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #78 on: May 18, 2011, 10:53:07 pm »
But you do realize that they didn't JUST get Wallace as a result of dealing Oswalt. They also got Happ and Villar, neither of whom are exactly throw-ins.

Of course not. I never said otherwise.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #79 on: May 19, 2011, 07:56:27 am »
NY Times reports on Jim Crane's past EEOC problems.

It doesn't sound like its going to stop the sale, but I would hate to see Bud Selig have any involvement in baseball decisions because of this.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #80 on: May 19, 2011, 08:29:07 am »
NY Times reports on Jim Crane's past EEOC problems.

It doesn't sound like its going to stop the sale, but I would hate to see Bud Selig have any involvement in baseball decisions because of this.

Man, I hate modern journalism.  I realize that you want to grab readers and build up the stories.  But it is completely unfair to put this in the first paragraphs...

Quote
The report cited an accusation that Crane told his managers not to hire blacks because “once you hire blacks, you can never fire them.” Witnesses said Crane did not permit Eagle to advertise job openings because he did not want to build up files of applications by qualified minority job-seekers.

Crane and his company aggressively fought the E.E.O.C. and similar allegations in a civil lawsuit brought by some former employees. But Crane, without admitting wrongdoing, eventually signed a consent decree that settled the charges for $8.5 million.


and save this for the middle of page 2...
Quote
Crane and his company have denied the allegations and called the E.E.O.C. investigation flawed. Only 10 percent of the claims by employees were deemed worthy of compensation, and Crane wound up getting $6 million back from the E.E.O.C.

Last month, Nancy Patterson, a lawyer who worked on the case for Crane, wrote in a memorandum that the investigation was “an unfortunate example of an unfounded prosecution of a private employer.”

She said the small number of valid claims meant that the company was “ultimately vindicated.”


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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #81 on: May 19, 2011, 08:34:38 am »
and save this for the middle of page 2...

Wow.  His own lawyer said the claims were unfounded and that the settlement was ultimately a victory for her client?  I'm stunned.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #82 on: May 19, 2011, 08:40:06 am »
Wow.  His own lawyer said the claims were unfounded and that the settlement was ultimately a victory for her client?  I'm stunned.

In all fariness, they should have noted the return of the $6MM in the same paragraph as the $8.5MM settlement

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #83 on: May 19, 2011, 08:42:06 am »
In all fariness, they should have noted the return of the $6MM in the same paragraph as the $8.5MM settlement

You're right, they should have.  But citing self-serving statements from the person paid to serve one's self always amuses me.

It's a also a lawyer cliche to take any loss and spin it as "actually a victory/vindication/etc..."
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #84 on: May 19, 2011, 08:50:38 am »
You're defending a reporter against a lawyer? Is this what we've come to?
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #85 on: May 19, 2011, 08:58:24 am »
You're defending a reporter against a lawyer? Is this what we've come to?

what else do we have?

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #86 on: May 19, 2011, 09:19:47 am »
BTW - about the article.  I have no real qualms with what is said about McLane, but there is the Wayne Huzienga type of bad owner and then there is the Drayton McLane misfiring and his own worse enemy type of owner.  They are not the same and articles like this tend to lump the bad owners all in one barrel.

Speaking of bad owners:  16 of the 20 Premier League teams lose money.  Gobs of it.  Half a billion pounds (three-quarters of a billion dollars) over the 2009-2010 season.  And the 4 in the black aren't the ones you'd think.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #87 on: May 19, 2011, 09:25:33 am »
PR hacks beat lawyers and reporters hands down. I once read an Exxon release several years after the Valdez spill where they commented on the benefits of the spill in terms of what was learned for developing better ways to treat and prevent future accidents. There was no mention of a drunk captain sleeping off a bender, or inactive radar/sonar equipment.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #88 on: May 19, 2011, 09:27:33 am »
Unless that original 100 dollars was some form of Eastern European currency that was completely worthless to you when you went back home, and instead you got a green cartoony-looking 100 dollar bill brought to you by the US Gubment that is accepted at any of the fine watering holes near you on your final nickel.

That, my friend, is a win.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #89 on: May 19, 2011, 09:30:07 am »
Goin' for a bus ride.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #90 on: May 19, 2011, 09:35:35 am »
In all fariness, they should have noted the return of the $6MM in the same paragraph as the $8.5MM settlement

This happens all the time, but not usually in retrospect.  Like the dozy bint who spilled McD's coffee on herself and went after gazillions in a lawsuit; mostly the facts cited are wrong, the judgement was reduced to a few hundred thousand and was settled for (probably) less prior to the completion of the appeal.  But the original headlines remain from the initial money grab, so that's what always gets touted.

In this case I agree that, when providing a retrospective, the net settlement of $2.5mm is the relevant figure.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #91 on: May 19, 2011, 09:37:22 am »
You're defending a reporter against a lawyer? Is this what we've come to?

Oh shit...
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #92 on: May 19, 2011, 11:31:01 am »
Speaking of bad owners:  16 of the 20 Premier League teams lose money.  Gobs of it.  Half a billion pounds (three-quarters of a billion dollars) over the 2009-2010 season.  And the 4 in the black aren't the ones you'd think.

How the FUCK do you lose that much money in the EPL? I mean the Barclay UBS Warburg Tesco Vodaphone Card EPL?

Wow. I'd just assumed that those teams are wildly profitable. As is often the case, I was wrong. I guess it just provides sharper relief for what a bunch of fucksticks the NFL owners are.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #93 on: May 19, 2011, 11:40:49 am »
Quote
The Glazer family's ownership has cost United around £350m in interest, fees, loans to the family themselves and bank charges since 2005, and they have never put money into the club. In the year to June 30 2010, United paid £42m interest on the £500m loans the Glazer family originally took out to buy the club in the first place, and just refinancing that debt, replacing the loans with a bond, cost United an eyewatering £65m, cash.

WOW. Next to raking in $80MM from wack rapture predictions this is easily the best scam going.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #94 on: May 19, 2011, 11:44:00 am »
If they hadn't IMMEDIATELY flipped Gose for Wallace, your argument would be a lot stronger. I can go to a casino with $1,000 and spend all night pumping nickels into a slot machine. After I've lost $999.95, on my last nickel, I may hit the jackpot and out pops $100. I can tell myself that I "won" $99.95 tonight as I only spent a nickel on that turn. But that ain't telling the whole story.

I'm not sure I made an argument.  I merely wanted to interject to a person who is known for his want of accuracy at all times that the Astros did not trade Oswalt and 11 mil for Gose.  They traded for Gose, Happ, and Villar.

Where is the argument in that?  It is fact.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #95 on: May 19, 2011, 02:25:57 pm »
I'm not sure I made an argument.  I merely wanted to interject to a person who is known for his want of accuracy at all times that the Astros did not trade Oswalt and 11 mil for Gose.  They traded for Gose, Happ, and Villar.

Where is the argument in that?  It is fact.

So then you agree with me that saying Wade was able to pick up Wallace for basically nothing is not an etirely accurate description?
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #96 on: May 19, 2011, 02:37:32 pm »
So then you agree with me that saying Wade was able to pick up Wallace for basically nothing is not an etirely accurate description?

What he told you was true... from a certain point of view.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #97 on: May 19, 2011, 02:50:18 pm »
Wow.  His own lawyer said the claims were unfounded and that the settlement was ultimately a victory for her client?  I'm stunned.

Yes, I get that.  My bigger point was the $6MM.  That should have been mentioned in the same paragrah as $8.5MM.  The lawyer talk is fine where it is, I overcopied.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #98 on: May 19, 2011, 03:30:40 pm »
So then you agree with me that saying Wade was able to pick up Wallace for basically nothing is not an etirely accurate description?

If the trade was this (which is was - IOW - factual): Gose for Wallace, then there is no doubt what was said was clear and concise and accurate.  I have no problem with that.  It proves one thing too: if you want a corner position player, dangling a up the middle prospect will get you noticed.

"Basically nothing" is because the up the middle prospect has yet to fulfill his promise and looks like he is going to be no more valuable than a fourth outfielder at this point.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #99 on: May 19, 2011, 11:10:09 pm »
NY Times reports on Jim Crane's past EEOC problems.

It doesn't sound like its going to stop the sale, but I would hate to see Bud Selig have any involvement in baseball decisions because of this.

Berman calls BS on racism claims (or finds folks that'd have a legitimate reason to say racism claims against Crain are BS). LINK

ETA: "racism claims" (edits italicized)
« Last Edit: May 20, 2011, 12:09:39 am by OregonStrosFan »
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #100 on: May 19, 2011, 11:18:49 pm »
Berman calls BS (or finds folks that'd have a legitimate reason to say it's BS). LINK

"$1.4 million was transferred to the Leadership Development Program established by the company in connection with the 2001 settlement."

That seems to have been a non-discretionary expenditure in the consent decree/settlement.  I think we're down to $1.1M in actual claims paid (though it's unclear in the article whether the $1.4M was part of the initial settlement or was charitably allocated out of the returned $6M).

Which I'm interested to see just how many claimants the settlement went to.

Paying a minimum of $1.1 million in EEOC violations:  a true vindication of his character.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 11:23:53 pm by Bench »
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #101 on: May 20, 2011, 12:38:36 am »
I don't know, man, you know I'd be the first to jump in shouting about how the guy is a racist neck but it seems to me that if you have a largeish company and some people take a mind to sue you over grievances real or imagined a few might very well prevail and you might very well end up coughing up a million dollars to get the whole thing behind you. Further, if the claims that were paid were legitimate it might have been the case that a single or small number of managers was acting inappropriately rather than a case of institutionalized racism, sexism or whatever else was alleged.

Hell, the guy might have insalubrious racial attitudes and they may manifest themselves in the workplace and beyond but I'd certainly need to know more about the claims and the settlement before fitting the guy with an Astros insignia white hood.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #102 on: May 20, 2011, 06:24:27 am »
If the trade was this (which is was - IOW - factual): Gose for Wallace, then there is no doubt what was said was clear and concise and accurate. 

No it's not. It was essentially a three-way deal.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #103 on: May 20, 2011, 07:05:13 am »
No it's not. It was essentially a three-way deal.

So, what you are saying is Oswalt and $11mil netted Houston two starters (Wallace and Happ) and a top prospect for Houston (Villar)?
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #104 on: May 20, 2011, 07:09:13 am »
So, what you are saying is Oswalt and $11mil netted Houston two starters (Wallace and Happ) and a top prospect for Houston (Villar)?

Nothing gets by you.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #105 on: May 20, 2011, 07:20:26 am »
Nothing gets by you.

Thanks, I guess.  What confuses me is it took 3 pages for everyone to agree on that.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #106 on: May 20, 2011, 07:23:34 am »
Thanks, I guess.  What confuses me is it took 3 pages for everyone to agree on that.

Not everyone does.  That's the point of discussion.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #107 on: May 20, 2011, 09:35:35 am »
Thanks, I guess.  What confuses me is it took 3 pages for everyone to agree on that.

The reason why it took 3 pages is because the original point was a good first base prospect can be had for a Jay Austin type player.  Which still holds true.  Toronto gave up Wallace for Gose and only Gose.  Not a damn thing more.  Doesn't matter how the team that traded away Gose got him.  If anything it reinforces the point that Jay Austin type players have more value.

Now whether you consider Jay Austin = Gose could be argued. But what Toronto was willing to give up for Wallace shouldn't have been argued.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2011, 09:44:04 am by pots »

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #108 on: May 20, 2011, 09:54:26 am »
So, what you are saying is Oswalt and $11mil netted Houston two starters (Wallace and Happ) and a top prospect for Houston (Villar)?

Actually, Oswalt, 11mil, Lance Berkman, 7 mil netted Houston three starters (Wallace, Happ, Melancon) and two prospects for Houston (Villar, Paredes).  Time has little relevance and neither who you are dealing with.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #109 on: May 20, 2011, 09:56:46 am »
The reason why it took 3 pages is because the original point was a good first base prospect can be had for a Jay Austin type player.  Which still holds true.  Toronto gave up Wallace for Gose and only Gose.  Not a damn thing more.  Doesn't matter how the team that traded away Gose got him.  If anything it reinforces the point that Jay Austin type players have more value.

Now whether you consider Jay Austin = Gose could be argued. But what Toronto was willing to give up for Wallace shouldn't have been argued.

Yup, the point remains: willingness to trade an up the middle prospect will get you noticed and most certainly will net you a corner prospect. It's GM 101.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #110 on: May 20, 2011, 11:06:53 am »
Paying a minimum of $1.1 million in EEOC violations:  a true vindication of his character.

When legal fees to fight it would far exceed that?  I don't think you're being realistic about how the world works.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #111 on: May 20, 2011, 11:08:41 am »
I think equating Gose and Austin might be a little unfair to Gose.

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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #112 on: May 20, 2011, 11:16:36 am »
I think equating Gose and Austin might be a little unfair to Gose.

Talk to me Gose.

Wait, that was last week.
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #113 on: May 20, 2011, 02:55:37 pm »
When legal fees to fight it would far exceed that?  I don't think you're being realistic about how the world works.

I was being very sarcastic.  I think chuck's take is spot on.  The fact that he got so much money back speaks volumes.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2011, 02:58:57 pm by Bench »
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Re: Astros exist, film at 11.
« Reply #114 on: May 20, 2011, 10:07:40 pm »
The Glide says Crane is not a racist.  NAACP Getting "Comfortable" with Crane
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