Another crucial blown call

[remy]

Bob Davidson, possibly distracted by some South Beach cleavage?

http://florida.marlins.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=10660809&topic_id=11493214&c_id=fla

[pots]

Wel, instant replay isn't helping this one.  After seeing the replay Bob still thinks it was foul. 

[austro]

Was the hitter right- or left-handed? Because if he was right-handed, there is no way a ball that landed fair twenty feet behind the bag wasn't fair when it went over the bag.

[SaltyParker]

Was the hitter right- or left-handed? Because if he was right-handed, there is no way a ball that landed fair twenty feet behind the bag wasn't fair when it went over the bag.

Landed fair before the bag, landed fair past the bag, never touched foul ground

[Ty in Tampa]

Landed fair before the bag, landed fair past the bag, never touched foul ground

The first bounce looked to be foul to me.

[Andyzipp]

The first bounce looked to be foul to me.

That's what I saw initally as well.

[pots]

That's what I saw initally as well.

I thought that too as well, though I think it's a camera angle issue because it looked like dirt kicked up inside the line on the first bounce.

[Ty in Tampa]

The best frame I could capture. I don't blame him for making the call.

[Limey]

That's what I saw initally as well.

He was calling it foul before the second bounce.  Not as egregious an error as perhaps suggested by the thread title.  From the replays I saw, which aren't as good an angle as Balkin' Bob had, it looked foul on the first bounce.

What's the rule?  If it's foul at any point before passing the bag it's simply foul, or is it ok if it comes back fair?

[Ty in Tampa]

He was calling it foul before the second bounce.  Not as egregious an error as perhaps suggested by the thread title.  From the replays I saw, which aren't as good an angle as Balkin' Bob had, it looked foul on the first bounce.

What's the rule?  If it's foul at any point before passing the bag it's simply foul, or is it ok if it comes back fair?

The way I understand it, if it lands foul at any point before the bag, it's foul.

[pots]

The best frame I could capture. I don't blame him for making the call.

I was referring to the bounce before the bag

[pots]

The way I understand it, if it lands foul at any point before the bag, it's foul.

I don't think this is right.  I think it can come back fair unless touched by a player foul.

[JimR]

The way I understand it, if it lands foul at any point before the bag, it's foul.

no. a ball can hit foul before the bag and spin back in before anyone touches it. that is a fair ball.

[Astroholic]

no. a ball can hit foul before the bag and spin back in before anyone touches it. that is a fair ball.

Thats what I thought as well. 

[Ty in Tampa]

no. a ball can hit foul before the bag and spin back in before anyone touches it. that is a fair ball.

I did not know that. Thanks.

[austro]

Landed fair before the bag, landed fair past the bag, never touched foul ground

Ok, I just looked at the replay (which I should have done before I posted the first time; I apologize for my laziness), and it looked to me like the first bounce was foul, the second (in front of the bag) was on the line, and the third (behind the bag) was inside the line, based on which I'm inclined to conclude it was fair as it passed over the bag.

In my sluggishness this morning I was using the wrong rule. I thought the ball was a line drive, and since it landed fair, it had to be fair when it crossed the bag. But, of course, on a ball hit beyond the bag on the fly, it doesn't matter where it is as it crosses the bag: all that matters is where it lands. The fact that people were concerned about whether it was fair when it crossed the bag means that the ball must have bounced at least once before the bag, which means that spin, curious bounces, etc, could produce almost any kind of path.

I shall now go get some coffee so I'm not quite as thick.

[BizidyDizidy]

My understanding is that the rule used to be (way long time ago, like pre-1900; Jim, please confirm) that if it ever touched fair it was fair. As you can imagine, this led to some crazy approaches to hitting.

[MikeyBoy]

I think it hit fair on both bounces, besides if the first bounce is the reason for Davidson to call it foul, then he didn't mention it in his post game comments.

"I was right on top of it and it was wide of the bag, that's all. I had it foul," Davidson said. "In my opinion, where it goes over the bag, you can't tell. After a bounce, it came an inch or two on the fair side, but ... it was very close. But I'm right there. I know what I saw."

"I understand that's the winning run," Davidson said, "but in my opinion it was foul and there's no replay that you can really see what the ball does over the bag -- that's what's important."

LINK

[JimR]

I think it hit fair on both bounces, besides if the first bounce is the reason for Davidson to call it foul, then he didn't mention it in his post game comments.

"I was right on top of it and it was wide of the bag, that's all. I had it foul," Davidson said. "In my opinion, where it goes over the bag, you can't tell. After a bounce, it came an inch or two on the fair side, but ... it was very close. But I'm right there. I know what I saw."

"I understand that's the winning run," Davidson said, "but in my opinion it was foul and there's no replay that you can really see what the ball does over the bag -- that's what's important."

LINK

ahem. the first bounce does not matter if it bounces fair before the bag or crosses the bag fair.

[Ron Brand]

I shall now go get some coffee so I'm not quite as thick.

You'll be better off if you stop listening to that damn Steely Dan.

[pots]

Given that Bob is standing 2-3 feet foul, from his ever so slight angle, it had to look like the ball was more fair than it really was to him.  And given that from replays it truely looks like at least part of the ball was over the bag.  It is impossible that Bob saw dirt in between the bag and the ball.  So he had to imagine that the ball was foul of the bag given his angle.  He didn't see it foul as he proclaims.  No way. 

[Mr. Happy]

I'm inclined to give Balkin' Bob the benefit of the doubt on this one.

[SaltyParker]

"I shall now go get some coffee so I'm not quite as thick."

You'll be better off if you stop listening to that damn Steely Dan. Jethro Tull

[Ron Brand]

"I shall now go get some coffee so I'm not quite as thick."

...as a...

[SaltyParker]

I'm inclined to give Balkin' Bob the benefit of the doubt on this one.

I don't see any angle that make's it look like it's foul. MLB tonight showed it over and over from every angle and every speed and it was clearly a fair ball.

[Jacksonian]

A hard hit ball that hit foul off the bat and hugged the line.  He was calling foul before it hit fair next him.  He made the assumption that the ball would hug the line foul as would be typical.  No doubt he thought it was foul as balls hit like that usually are.  Amazing what your mind sees at times especially when you have only a moment to see it all.

[Lurch]

"I shall now go get some coffee so I'm not quite as thick."

Look, you can talk shit about Steely Dan, but if you start going after Tull fists are going to be thrown.

[MusicMan]

Look, you can talk shit about Steely Dan, but if you start going after Tull fists are going to be thrown.

Why, are you a big fan of his?

/ducks

[EasTexAstro]

Look, you can talk shit about Steely Dan, but if you start going after Tull fists are going to be thrown.

I tell you one thing that really drives me nuts, is people who think that Jethro Tull is just a person in a band.

[SaltyParker]

A hard hit ball that hit foul off the bat and hugged the line.  He was calling foul before it hit fair next him.  He made the assumption that the ball would hug the line foul as would be typical.  No doubt he thought it was foul as balls hit like that usually are.  Amazing what your mind sees at times especially when you have only a moment to see it all.

The ball was never foul at any point in time. The MLB guys did a mock up reenactment in studio 42 and came to the conclusion that the ball must have hit a pebble on the bounce immediately before the bag and altered the trajectory. So Davidson simply assumed the ball was going foul. It never did.

[Mr. Happy]

The ball was never foul at any point in time. The MLB guys did a mock up reenactment in studio 42 and came to the conclusion that the ball must have hit a pebble on the bounce immediately before the bag and altered the trajectory. So Davidson simply assumed the ball was going foul. It never did.

Even if Davidson was wrong, it was human error, which is part of the game. Players make mistakes, as do managers. I wouldn't get too worked up about it.

[Lurch]

I tell you one thing that really drives me nuts, is people who think that Jethro Tull is just a person in a band.

Say, which one is Pink?

[Andyzipp]

Say, which one is Pink?

This guy...

(http://quizilla.teennick.com/user_images/E/Eyekandi78/1084892353_esktoppink.jpg)

[HudsonHawk]

Just to answer the question about the rule, as I didn't see it addressed directly here...on a ground ball, it's where the ball is when it passes the bag.  It doesn't matter where it hits before the bag or after the bag, they only thing that determines fair or foul is where the ball is when it crosses the bag.  I've read a lot about Davidson making the call before he saw it land fair behind him.  That doesn't matter.  It doesn't matter if it hits fair between home plate and 3B.  I'm not arguing he made the right call, just clarifying the rule on a fair/foul ground ball.

[Wild Dog]

"I was right on top of it and it was wide of the bag, that's all. I had it foul," Davidson said. "In my opinion, where it goes over the bag, you can't tell. After a bounce, it came an inch or two on the fair side, but ... it was very close. But I'm right there. I know what I saw."
LINK

No Bob, if you had been right on top of it, the ball would have hit you.  You were on the foul side of the line, watching the play much like we at home watch balls and strikes being called, from a side view.

Just to answer the question about the rule, as I didn't see it addressed directly here...on a ground ball, it's where the ball is when it passes the bag.  It doesn't matter where it hits before the bag or after the bag, they only thing that determines fair or foul is where the ball is when it crosses the bag.  I've read a lot about Davidson making the call before he saw it land fair behind him.  That doesn't matter.  It doesn't matter if it hits fair between home plate and 3B.  I'm not arguing he made the right call, just clarifying the rule on a fair/foul ground ball.

How can a ball hit that close to the bag fair and turn foul and then turn back that far fair in the distance between the two places that it touched dirt?  The only person I know who can cause a ball to do that is Angel Sanchez and I think we'll all agree that they had the wrong Sanchez at the plate.  Gabby ain't no Angel.

[Limey]

I tell you one thing that really drives me nuts, is people who think that Jethro Tull is just a person in a band.

For the record, Jethro Tull was a person.

[HudsonHawk]

How can a ball hit that close to the bag fair and turn foul and then turn back that far fair in the distance between the two places that it touched dirt?

I don't know.  I'm not saying it was the right call, just that where it lands before the bag and after the bag is irrelevant to whether or not it's foul or fair.

[EasTexAstro]

For the record, Jethro Tull was a person.

Out of curiosity, does anyone recognize that quote?

[Alkie]

Out of curiosity, does anyone recognize that quote?

Duh.  Coked Up Whore #3 from Back Door Girls Go Hollywood.

The "pig spoon" scene.

[EasTexAstro]

Duh.  Coked Up Whore #3 from Back Door Girls Go Hollywood.

The "pig spoon" scene.

Cool. Thought it was just me.

[Ron Brand]

Duh.  Coked Up Whore #3 from Back Door Girls Go Hollywood.

The "pig spoon" scene.

Well, it's actually a slight change from the original in Girl Scout Suck Slaves of The Black Mass, but that one's been hard to find since the early 80s.

[MusicMan]

Well, it's actually a slight change from the original in Girl Scout Suck Slaves of The Black Mass, but that one's been hard to find since the early 80s.

You haven't looked in Alkie's closet.

[Ron Brand]

You haven't looked in Alkie's closet.

I'd like to think no one has looked in Alkie's closet...