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Author Topic: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell  (Read 8285 times)

Twoniner

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MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« on: July 09, 2009, 06:45:51 pm »
     Getting thrown out by 20 feet at 2nd base after hitting a 2 out RBI single... where the runner is obviously going to score anyways.    Maybe 1 out of 10 times the defense actually cuts this ball off when they would have gotten the guy at the plate.  Maybe.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2009, 06:48:36 pm »
With two outs, the batter is trying to get them to cut the ball. He doens't have time to stand and watch the play and see wht *might* have been. 
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Twoniner

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2009, 06:53:09 pm »
  Rickey Henderson could be on second base with a soft liner hit.  Some players today are going to get gunned for the hell of it.
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strosrays

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2009, 06:56:40 pm »
Quote from: Twoniner on July 09, 2009, 06:53:09 pm
  Rickey Henderson could be on second base with a soft liner hit.  Some players today are going to get gunned for the hell of it.

Wait a minute.  What??
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Twoniner

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2009, 07:16:42 pm »
  What I'm saying is that this has turned into a no risk (personally) way for players to ensure that their RBI gets home,  regardless of how close the play might be at the plate.   It's not limited to 2 out singles either.   Orlando Hudson hits a bases loaded RBI double off the wall at Citi Field tonight..  He starts heading to 3rd extremely late when the throw is practically at the catcher.   Mets catcher sees there is no chance for the play at the plate, and they get Hudson in an easy rundown.   Hudson had no chance to get to third base,  and the catcher was not going to come out in front of the plate if they had the runner at home.  Maybe I'm wrong,  but I have watched a lot of baseball,  and this play has seemingly grown a lot in popularity.  I think it is a well intentioned strategy, but it has turned into a "faux" hustle play that some players are getting too greedy with.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2009, 07:22:57 pm »
Quote from: Twoniner on July 09, 2009, 07:16:42 pm
 What I'm saying is that this has turned into a no risk (personally) way for players to ensure that their RBI gets home,  regardless of how close the play might be at the plate.

That's the point.  The batter doesn't know how close the play at the plate is going to be.

Quote
  It's not limited to 2 out singles either.   Orlando Hudson hits a bases loaded RBI double off the wall at Citi Field tonight..  He starts heading to 3rd extremely late when the throw is practically at the catcher.   Mets catcher sees there is no chance for the play at the plate, and they get Hudson in an easy rundown.   Hudson had no chance to get to third base,  and the catcher was not going to come out in front of the plate if they had the runner at home.

That sounds like poor baserunning that is not the situation you orginally described.  One example of poor baserunning doesn't make it a bad play.

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 Maybe I'm wrong,  but I have watched a lot of baseball,  and this play has seemingly grown a lot in popularity.  I think it is a well intentioned strategy, but it has turned into a "faux" hustle play that some players are getting too greedy with.


It's not "faux" hustle, it's a strategic play to ensure the run scores.  It's sound baseball.
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GreatBagwellsBeard

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2009, 10:05:20 pm »
And you ended your shoddy argument with a preposition. It's just this sort of thing up with we will not put.
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JimR

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2009, 10:45:55 pm »
Quote from: Twoniner on July 09, 2009, 07:16:42 pm
  What I'm saying is that this has turned into a no risk (personally) way for players to ensure that their RBI gets home,  regardless of how close the play might be at the plate.   It's not limited to 2 out singles either.   Orlando Hudson hits a bases loaded RBI double off the wall at Citi Field tonight..  He starts heading to 3rd extremely late when the throw is practically at the catcher.   Mets catcher sees there is no chance for the play at the plate, and they get Hudson in an easy rundown.   Hudson had no chance to get to third base,  and the catcher was not going to come out in front of the plate if they had the runner at home.  Maybe I'm wrong,  but I have watched a lot of baseball,  and this play has seemingly grown a lot in popularity.  I think it is a well intentioned strategy, but it has turned into a "faux" hustle play that some players are getting too greedy with.

FOS. ballplayers are taught to do this with two out. get your memo out, and stop it immediately!
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OregonStrosFan

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2009, 12:00:53 am »
Quote from: HudsonHawk on July 09, 2009, 07:22:57 pm
It's not "faux" hustle, it's a strategic play to ensure the run scores.  It's sound baseball.

It can be sound baseball.  However, the Astros have 'utilized' that strategy at times in a manner that was not sound, and if you want to claim that they haven't then you're full of shit.  The Astros give entirely too many outs away on the basepads and need to either pull their heads out of their asses or utilize different stratagem.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 12:05:34 am by OregonStrosFan »
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strosrays

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2009, 01:06:15 am »
Quote from: OregonStrosFan on July 10, 2009, 12:00:53 am
It can be sound baseball.  However, the Astros have 'utilized' that strategy at times in a manner that was not sound, and if you want to claim that they haven't then you're full of shit.  The Astros give entirely too many outs away on the basepads and need to either pull their heads out of their asses or utilize different stratagem.

I don't care who is right or wrong on this point, if you are going to take a shot across someone's bow like this, you'd better think it all the way through, is all I'm saying.
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OregonStrosFan

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2009, 01:49:23 am »
Quote from: strosrays on July 10, 2009, 01:06:15 am
I don't care who is right or wrong on this point, if you are going to take a shot across someone's bow like this, you'd better think it all the way through, is all I'm saying.

Thanks.  Not going to get into a war of baseball knowledge with HH, I'd lose...  The ad hominem should have been avoided, my bad.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 01:54:16 am by OregonStrosFan »
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Col. Sphinx Drummond

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2009, 07:34:58 am »
The Astros have had what seems like a more than ordinary amount of guys getting caught in run downs between the bases. Next year it will probably be different. Some mistakes have been made by Pence because, well. And Miggy, Carlos, and Blum are not very fast. On a good note, Berkman has improved over his career from being a bumbling oaf to a much better base runner. He might being paying more attention. Or some essence of Baggy remained at first and somehow seeped into Lance.
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JimR

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2009, 07:41:43 am »
Quote from: OregonStrosFan on July 10, 2009, 12:00:53 am
It can be sound baseball.  However, the Astros have 'utilized' that strategy at times in a manner that was not sound, and if you want to claim that they haven't then you're full of shit.  The Astros give entirely too many outs away on the basepads and need to either pull their heads out of their asses or utilize different stratagem.

are you kidding me? were you drunk when you wrote this? the point of the "strategm" is to force a cutoff to get attention diverted from the plate. that results in a rundown between first and second most of the time. it is done by every team in the majors and by smart baserunners in college and HS. it is baseball 101.

i do not know who posted under your username, but your reply to HH is the worst kind of bullshit. it is ignorant, and you seldom are.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2009, 08:52:24 am »
Quote from: OregonStrosFan on July 10, 2009, 12:00:53 am
It can be sound baseball.  However, the Astros have 'utilized' that strategy at times in a manner that was not sound, and if you want to claim that they haven't then you're full of shit.  The Astros give entirely too many outs away on the basepads and need to either pull their heads out of their asses or utilize different stratagem.


I'm not saying you can't be a bad baserunner.  I'm saying that with two outs and a potential run scoring single, you try to draw the cutoff.  If that means you think I'm full of shit, so be it. 
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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2009, 09:12:56 am »
Quote from: HudsonHawk on July 10, 2009, 08:52:24 am

I'm not saying you can't be a bad baserunner.  I'm saying that with two outs and a potential run scoring single, you try to draw the cutoff.  If that means you think I'm full of shit, so be it. 

Trading a sure run for a possible out is pretty sound strategy if you ask me. And I'd bet that it's not just runners deciding, I'd imagine our 1st base coach, who knows a few things about baserunning as well, might be telling them to go.
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Philip

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2009, 03:16:14 pm »
I agree with twoniner on this. It is completely situationally dependent. Baseball 101, Chapter One says the most precious thing in baseball are OUTS. You only get 27 of them and you should not fritter them away needlessly like a Jimy Williams sac bunt in the first inning. Say you are the home team with 2 outs in the bottom of the 8th and you are losing 5-0. You have 4 outs left. If it is "Baseball 101" to trade an out for a run, then the visitor will gladly hope your strategy works out 100% since you are going to lose 5-4. In that circumstance, it would be idiotic to take second and get thrown out to end the inning when the defense was more than happy to concede a fairly worthless run. If it were 5-3, 5-4, 5-5, then the defense would take every chance to cut down the run at home and it would make sense to try to take the extra base because it is a win-win: you score the run and get the extra base or you get thrown out and thereby enable a very important run to score. But to say that every batter/runner should be taught to take the extra base to trade an out for a run with two outs and a preceding runner attempting to score without qualifying the circumstance is stupid.
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JimR

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2009, 07:10:55 pm »
Quote from: Philip on July 12, 2009, 03:16:14 pm
I agree with twoniner on this. It is completely situationally dependent. Baseball 101, Chapter One says the most precious thing in baseball are OUTS. You only get 27 of them and you should not fritter them away needlessly like a Jimy Williams sac bunt in the first inning. Say you are the home team with 2 outs in the bottom of the 8th and you are losing 5-0. You have 4 outs left. If it is "Baseball 101" to trade an out for a run, then the visitor will gladly hope your strategy works out 100% since you are going to lose 5-4. In that circumstance, it would be idiotic to take second and get thrown out to end the inning when the defense was more than happy to concede a fairly worthless run. If it were 5-3, 5-4, 5-5, then the defense would take every chance to cut down the run at home and it would make sense to try to take the extra base because it is a win-win: you score the run and get the extra base or you get thrown out and thereby enable a very important run to score. But to say that every batter/runner should be taught to take the extra base to trade an out for a run with two outs and a preceding runner attempting to score without qualifying the circumstance is stupid.

no one said EVERY hitter should do it in EVERY situation. good grief! go to astrosdaily where this BP crap might be appreciated.
ETA: you registered today, and began pontificating right away? "Read more, post less."
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 07:17:37 pm by JimR »
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HudsonHawk

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2009, 07:48:28 pm »
Quote from: Philip on July 12, 2009, 03:16:14 pm
I agree with twoniner on this. It is completely situationally dependent. Baseball 101, Chapter One says the most precious thing in baseball are OUTS. You only get 27 of them and you should not fritter them away needlessly like a Jimy Williams sac bunt in the first inning. Say you are the home team with 2 outs in the bottom of the 8th and you are losing 5-0. You have 4 outs left. If it is "Baseball 101" to trade an out for a run, then the visitor will gladly hope your strategy works out 100% since you are going to lose 5-4. In that circumstance, it would be idiotic to take second and get thrown out to end the inning when the defense was more than happy to concede a fairly worthless run. If it were 5-3, 5-4, 5-5, then the defense would take every chance to cut down the run at home and it would make sense to try to take the extra base because it is a win-win: you score the run and get the extra base or you get thrown out and thereby enable a very important run to score. But to say that every batter/runner should be taught to take the extra base to trade an out for a run with two outs and a preceding runner attempting to score without qualifying the circumstance is stupid.


Wow, thanks Captain Obvious.  BTW, the most precious things in baseball are runs, not outs.
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strosrays

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2009, 08:25:56 pm »

Quote from: Philip on July 12, 2009, 03:16:14 pm
I agree with twoniner on this. It is completely situationally dependent. Baseball 101, Chapter One says the most precious thing in baseball are OUTS. You only get 27 of them and you should not fritter them away needlessly like a Jimy Williams sac bunt in the first inning.

Ok, right, so fuck you.

Quote from: Philip on July 12, 2009, 03:16:14 pm
Say you are the home team with 2 outs in the bottom of the 8th and you are losing 5-0. You have 4 outs left. If it is "Baseball 101" to trade an out for a run, then the visitor will gladly hope your strategy works out 100% since you are going to lose 5-4.

Yes, mmm-hmmm, yes; and go fuck yourself.

Quote from: Philip on July 12, 2009, 03:16:14 pm
In that circumstance, it would be idiotic to take second and get thrown out to end the inning when the defense was more than happy to concede a fairly worthless run. If it were 5-3, 5-4, 5-5, then the defense would take every chance to cut down the run at home and it would make sense to try to take the extra base because it is a win-win: you score the run and get the extra base or you get thrown out and thereby enable a very important run to score. But to say that every batter/runner should be taught to take the extra base to trade an out for a run with two outs and a preceding runner attempting to score without qualifying the circumstance is stupid.

Ever hear of the phrase "pedantic prick"?  No?  Go on over to the AD board, as has already been suggested.  There is a guy over there named "Bardzilla", he claims to be an English teacher.  He'll explain it to you.  Hell, he was the original inspiration.
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Philip

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2009, 11:05:07 pm »
Quote from: JimR on July 12, 2009, 07:10:55 pm
no one said EVERY hitter should do it in EVERY situation. good grief! go to astrosdaily where this BP crap might be appreciated.
ETA: you registered today, and began pontificating right away? "Read more, post less."



To quote you: FOS. ballplayers are taught to do this with two out. get your memo out, and stop it immediately!
You referred to it as Baseball 101. I presume FOS means "full of shit". That implied there was, in your opinion, little room for equivocation on this.
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Philip

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2009, 11:12:58 pm »
Quote from: HudsonHawk on July 12, 2009, 07:48:28 pm

Wow, thanks Captain Obvious.  BTW, the most precious things in baseball are runs, not outs.

Earl Weaver would disagree with you on that and he probably got in a few more World Series than you have. If you really believe that, then I guess you think it would be a smart play to get the batter/runner thrown out at second to make sure the score is 5-1, what with the play being behind him and all that. You only get 27 outs, when they are used up, the game is over. That is why the sac bunt is usually a stupid play. That is why you have to be successful at least 70% of steal attempts to make it worthwhile. Think more, post less.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 11:42:19 pm by Philip »
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Philip

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2009, 11:39:40 pm »
Quote from: strosrays on July 12, 2009, 08:25:56 pm
Ok, right, so fuck you.

Yes, mmm-hmmm, yes; and go fuck yourself.

Ever hear of the phrase "pedantic prick"?  No?  Go on over to the AD board, as has already been suggested.  There is a guy over there named "Bardzilla", he claims to be an English teacher.  He'll explain it to you.  Hell, he was the original inspiration.

The rules at the front door rather specifically say that you should not be telling me to go fuck myself nor that you should so openly express your desire to fuck me.
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Ty in Tampa

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2009, 06:29:01 am »
*unfolds worn copy of 13 steps from wallet...*
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Col. Sphinx Drummond

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2009, 07:24:56 am »
Quote from: Philip on July 12, 2009, 11:12:58 pm
You only get 27 outs...

I love 0-0 tie games in baseball. Runs suck, outs are precious... all 27 of them.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2009, 07:26:12 am »
Quote from: Philip on July 12, 2009, 11:12:58 pm
Earl Weaver would disagree with you on that and he probably got in a few more World Series than you have. If you really believe that, then I guess you think it would be a smart play to get the batter/runner thrown out at second to make sure the score is 5-1, what with the play being behind him and all that. You only get 27 outs, when they are used up, the game is over. That is why the sac bunt is usually a stupid play. That is why you have to be successful at least 70% of steal attempts to make it worthwhile. Think more, post less.

Oh come one, you damn good and well what we're talking about here.  No one suggested that you get in a rundown with 2 out in the 9th down by 3 runs.  Don't be such a pedantic fucktard.
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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2009, 07:38:38 am »
Quote from: Philip on July 12, 2009, 11:39:40 pm
The rules at the front door rather specifically say that you should not be telling me to go fuck myself nor that you should so openly express your desire to fuck me.

go fuck yourself. he didn't tell you this time.
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JimR

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2009, 07:39:51 am »
Quote from: Philip on July 12, 2009, 11:12:58 pm
Earl Weaver would disagree with you on that and he probably got in a few more World Series than you have. If you really believe that, then I guess you think it would be a smart play to get the batter/runner thrown out at second to make sure the score is 5-1, what with the play being behind him and all that. You only get 27 outs, when they are used up, the game is over. That is why the sac bunt is usually a stupid play. That is why you have to be successful at least 70% of steal attempts to make it worthwhile. Think more, post less.

fucking troll. you will not last a week here.
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Limey

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2009, 09:00:06 am »
Quote from: JimR on July 13, 2009, 07:39:51 am
fucking troll. you will not last a week here.

But it'll be a fun week.
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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2009, 09:48:56 pm »
Quote from: JimR on July 13, 2009, 07:39:51 am
fucking troll. you will not last a week here.


Wah. Big. Fucking. Wah.
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GreatBagwellsBeard

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2009, 10:54:57 pm »
It's funny because he thinks he's people.

Shoo.
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Philip

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2009, 04:28:29 am »
Quote from: GreatBagwellsBeard on July 13, 2009, 10:54:57 pm
It's funny because he thinks he's people.

Shoo.

It's called "satire". Cue the witty POTW retort....10...9...8...
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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2009, 07:25:30 am »
Quote from: Philip on July 14, 2009, 04:28:29 am
It's called "satire"...

It rubs the lotion on it's skin or else it gets the hose again.

Step 7 or 8?

I forget the order.
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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2009, 07:43:45 am »
Quote from: Philip on July 14, 2009, 04:28:29 am
It's called "satire". Cue the witty POTW retort....10...9...8...

hey, the child is back. i'll bet Mommy doesn't know you are playing on her computer.
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JackAstro

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2009, 09:28:21 am »
Quote from: Philip on July 14, 2009, 04:28:29 am
It's called "satire". Cue the witty POTW retort....10...9...8...

Could you get all of your satirical trolling points gathered into one post, under one user name? You're going to get blown up soon anyway, so you might as well get your money's worth.

That reminds me – Drayton McLane, man is he cheap or what?
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MusicMan

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2009, 09:33:51 am »
Quote from: JackAstro on July 14, 2009, 09:28:21 am
That reminds me – Drayton McLane, man is he cheap or what?

What does that even mean?!?!?!
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Gizzmonic

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #35 on: July 14, 2009, 09:35:28 am »
Quote from: Philip on July 14, 2009, 04:28:29 am
It's called "satire". Cue the witty POTW retort....10...9...8...

Would you consider this Juvenalian or Horatian satire?  Either way sir, the ancients would recognize your contribution as a proud continuation of their traditions.  And by traditions, of course, I mean sheep buggery.
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JackAstro

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2009, 09:38:02 am »
Quote from: MusicMan on July 14, 2009, 09:33:51 am
What does that even mean?!?!?!










Dick.
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S.P. Rodriguez

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2009, 12:27:22 pm »
Quote from: JackAstro on July 14, 2009, 09:38:02 am









Dick.

I'm still confused.  Are you saying Philip/junior/<troll_alias> likes Dick?  Because, if that's what you're saying, I believe it. 
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JackAstro

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2009, 01:18:22 pm »
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JimR

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2009, 01:19:38 pm »
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Phil_in_CS

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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2009, 09:44:52 am »
Quote from: JimR on July 14, 2009, 01:19:38 pm
what a great line by MM. thanks for reminding me.

That was one of the all time all times.
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Re: MLB baserunning strategy that's gone to hell
« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2009, 01:46:26 pm »
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