Author Topic: Garner knows that Lidge knows that Garner knows that Lidge knows  (Read 2020 times)

pravata

  • Guest
(Footer opined in the most recent Mailbag) The Astros probably figure there was more value just keeping Lidge and hoping he can be a factor in the bullpen than they would get trading him.
Link

Brad Lidge, who lost his closer's job April 9, hasn't allowed a run in nine of 10 outings since April 13 ...fifth in a row.    

Garner said. ".... When I have confidence in him, ....he has confidence in himself, that helps me. ...I think he's feeling very confident in what he's accomplishing." 

(return to closing?) "Let's just let him pitch, ...," Garner said. link

Fredia

  • Pope
  • Posts: 6896
  • Looking forward
    • View Profile
Re: Garner knows that Lidge knows that Garner knows that Lidge knows
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2007, 12:01:09 pm »
i guess with the way the team has been playing any good news is welcomed. hope he has it together and keeps it that way
forever is composed entirely of nows

Noe

  • Guest
Re: Garner knows that Lidge knows that Garner knows that Lidge knows
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2007, 12:15:56 pm »
i guess with the way the team has been playing any good news is welcomed. hope he has it together and keeps it that way

He's not been a bad pitcher this year (I know, I'm full of shit for saying that... been there, done that).  The problem is he has not been the dominant closer he once was.  Will he ever be?  No one knows and at this point, is this what Houston needs to be a contender?  I don't know for sure on that one either.  All Garner is saying is that Lidge is part of the solution and not *the* solution.  So folks in the media and the fans need to just back off and let the man pitch and help this club that way.

Wanting Lidge to be the version of Brad Lidge from 2004 is not a good expectation to have so it is best for the media to just lose that expectation.  Fans too.  It works best for everyone involved.

Arky Vaughan

  • Administrator
  • Pope
  • Posts: 6335
    • View Profile
Re: Garner knows that Lidge knows that Garner knows that Lidge knows
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2007, 12:39:27 pm »
He's not been a bad pitcher this year (I know, I'm full of shit for saying that... been there, done that).  The problem is he has not been the dominant closer he once was.  Will he ever be?  No one knows and at this point, is this what Houston needs to be a contender?  I don't know for sure on that one either.  All Garner is saying is that Lidge is part of the solution and not *the* solution.  So folks in the media and the fans need to just back off and let the man pitch and help this club that way.

Wanting Lidge to be the version of Brad Lidge from 2004 is not a good expectation to have so it is best for the media to just lose that expectation.  Fans too.  It works best for everyone involved.

It's interesting that people can acknowledge that Morgan Ensberg may never again be what he was in 2005 but that people expect that Brad Lidge should again be what he was in 2004 or 2005. Even closers can have career years.

Limey

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 32079
  • Tally Ho!
    • View Profile
Re: Garner knows that Lidge knows that Garner knows that Lidge knows
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2007, 12:42:47 pm »
It's interesting that people can acknowledge that Morgan Ensberg may never again be what he was in 2005 but that people expect that Brad Lidge should again be what he was in 2004 or 2005. Even closers can have career years.

I would hazard a guess that closers are historically waaaaay more erratic than position players.  For every Eck, there's at least one John Rocker.
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

Noe

  • Guest
Re: Garner knows that Lidge knows that Garner knows that Lidge knows
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2007, 01:13:44 pm »
I would hazard a guess that closers are historically waaaaay more erratic than position players.  For every Eck, there's at least one John Rocker.

Mark Davis comes to mind.  He had an All Star season in 1988 and then followed that up with a Cy Young season in 1989 whilest pitching for San Diego.  He parlayed that Cy Young season into a huge contract from the Kansas City Royals, who had high expectations of him to be a dominant closer for years to come.  He flamed out the first season with the Royals and never lived up to his reputation as a dominant anything.  Nice pitcher?  Yeah, he was, but never dominant again like he was in San Diego in 1989.

But back to Lidge.

When things start to catch up to you, one of the things a good pitcher will do is to simplify things.  Fastball goes to the hands on the inside, down at the knees on the outside, slider can show itself at the strikezone and tail away or even down (although that is rare thing to do, but I digress), slider even can back up and catch some hitters thinking too much.  Said simplification is okay to do, in fact it works quite a bit of time, but it never really leads to being dominant again.  Dominance is rare, but to do so you have to have that one signature pitch you can repeatly throw without fail and even if the hitter knows it's coming, they still can't square you up.  Mariano Rivera = cutter.  Trevor Hoffman = changeup.  Goose Gossage = riser (four seamer).  Eckersley = slider.  Billy Wagner = grip it and rip it.  All those guys will show you other pitches, but when they have to get you out and you also know it, they will go with what they trust the most and forgetaboutit!  Lidge had such a pitch in the slider that broke down and away from right handers and down and in to leftys (hence why some lefty hitters had more success against him... that is the wheel house for some lefty hitters).  But when the league caught up with Lidge, they laid off the slider and that lead to inconsistency in throwing the darn thing.  Lidge tried to do too much to be dominant again with the same pitch.  Hence why he overthrew the pitch and opened up a lot.  It flattened the pitch out because he desperately wanted to keep throwing the pitch regardless as his signature pitch and for strikes.

Now, since he's simplified his approach to getting guys out, he's actually doing much better.  He's pitching more actually, so that doesn't necessarily means dominance any more.  It also doesn't mean suckitude either.  It means time will tell what sort of reliever he'll be.  Even Dave Smith could close successfully with just one pitch... a nasty 12to6 curveball that even though you knew it was coming and it was in the low 80s, it was hard to hit and you just couldn't afford to sit on a fastball with Smitty.  Lidge may be that guy again, but expectations of a dominant closer are just too much to ask of anyone right now.

Enjoy watching him mature as a pitcher and figure some things out.  Who knows, it may mean he reinvents himself as well and makes the hitter have to think about more than just laying off the slider and hitting the four seamer if he simplify and execute effectively.

mrpink

  • Prime Time Player
  • Posts: 915
    • View Profile
Re: Garner knows that Lidge knows that Garner knows that Lidge knows
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2007, 06:14:34 pm »
I would hazard a guess that closers are historically waaaaay more erratic than position players.  For every Eck, there's at least one John Rocker.

or John Hudek

Amy

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 1579
  • #1 Bidge Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Garner knows that Lidge knows that Garner knows that Lidge knows
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2007, 06:54:38 pm »
Maybe the better strategy is to let Lidge pitch in lower pressure situations for a longer period of time, to really solidify his confidence.  Then if he looks good enough, slowly work him back up to the higher pressure situations.  In hindsight, I think perhaps Gar was too quick to throw Lidge back into the fire last year.  As long as Wheeler and Qualls are doing the job, Gar should move Lidge along slowly.

TheWizard

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 1072
    • View Profile
Re: Garner knows that Lidge knows that Garner knows that Lidge knows
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2007, 09:19:47 pm »
It's interesting that people can acknowledge that Morgan Ensberg may never again be what he was in 2005 but that people expect that Brad Lidge should again be what he was in 2004 or 2005. Even closers can have career years.
Outstanding point..
Today seems like a good day to burn a bridge or two