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General Discussion => Talk Zone => Topic started by: JimR on October 11, 2019, 06:52:12 am
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Every time a pitcher gets hit hard, his (and others’) first thought is “I must be tipping somehow. They knew what was coming.” Well, maybe.
I happen to think it is good baseball to study a pitcher’s grip or mannerisms to determine if he is doing things differently on fast balls and breaking pitches. I did that for three years coaching first base for the Longhorns, and I was able to let the hitters know who wanted to know what was coming. Our first baseman, Bob Snoddy, won the SWC batting title my senior year and gave me credit in a newspaper interview, making Coach Falk apoplectic at this disclosure. One has to be certain when calling pitches for hitters because crossing the hitter up is dangerous and loses his trust in the credibility of the info.
I did this as often as possible coaching HS also. At McCallum in the ‘70s, we faced an outstanding pitcher named Tommy Boggs for three years. I called every single one of his pitches for three years because of a mannerism he had by sticking his tongue in his cheek on curves. He threw very hard, and this helped hitters get ready for his fast ball. Knowing what was coming helped us beat him every time we faced him his sophomore and junior years.
Despite our knowledge, Tommy beat us three times in close games his senior year, including a playoff game. Shoddy defense at times plus bad luck contributed, and our hitters’ knowing what he was throwing was not the deciding factor in these games. Tommy was big, strong, a fierce competitor, and he had improved so much he was drafted second overall in the first round by the Rangers and played several years in MLB for the Rangers and the Braves.
Here is the bottom line on this issue, as Boggs showed us and as Glasnow showed the Astros after the first inning last night: a hitter can know what the pitcher will throw, either by a call from the bench or by watching for the tell, but he still has to hit the ball. Using tipping pitches as the excuse for being hit hard is at least partially valid, but the excuse also denigrates the hitters’ skills.
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Excellent. Thanks for that. Your last point about the hitters skills being denigrated is true too often. Sometimes, and pretty often, the hitter simply hits a good pitch. Even where the pitcher executes the pitch as called in the right location, sometimes it just gets whacked hard. It's baseball. I tipped my hat to many hitters over the years for simply hitting good pitches. It's really all you can do.
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Glasnow was holding his glove different for fast balls than he was for curves.
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Throwing a quality pitch, even if they know it's coming, can still beat guys. Prime example is ALCS game 7 against those damn Yankees, McCullers threw 26 straight curveballs. Everyone knew the curve was coming, McCann wasn't even bothering to put down a sign, and yet they still couldn't hit it.
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Didn't Tommy Boggs used to run some sort of baseball training facility in Austin? As a kid I always used to wonder if he was related to Wade Boggs.
Looks like he's coaching at Concordia now.
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Glasnow was holding his glove different for fast balls than he was for curves.
You read as well as I do
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Didn't Tommy Boggs used to run some sort of baseball training facility in Austin? As a kid I always used to wonder if he was related to Wade Boggs.
Looks like he's coaching at Concordia now.
Yes, Austin SLAM. He now is a successful coach at Concordia University.
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Throwing a quality pitch, even if they know it's coming, can still beat guys. Prime example is ALCS game 7 against those damn Yankees, McCullers threw 26 straight curveballs. Everyone knew the curve was coming, McCann wasn't even bothering to put down a sign, and yet they still couldn't hit it.
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Yeah, you still have to hit it. Everyone knew Bob Gibson was gonna throw a fastball. Few could hit it.
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As Sphinx pointed out his glove location was different. Stros hitters still had to put a good swing on it and were hitting opposite field when they did. Well executed! Also, the pitches being hit in that 1st inning caught a lot of the plate. Glasnow tipped his pitches but I'm thinking he didn't mean to catch that much plate. If he did that's all on him tipping pitches or not.
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You read as well as I do
My reading comprehension is fair. I'm a pretty good listener as well.
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As Sphinx pointed out his glove location was different. Stros hitters still had to put a good swing on it and were hitting opposite field when they did. Well executed! Also, the pitches being hit in that 1st inning caught a lot of the plate. Glasnow tipped his pitches but I'm thinking he didn't mean to catch that much plate. If he did that's all on him tipping pitches or not.
Some talking head pointed this out during the game. To his credit, Glasnow said the problem was too much plate to good hitters, not tipping pitches.
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Some talking head pointed this out during the game. To his credit, Glasnow said the problem was too much plate to good hitters, not tipping pitches.
I thought you had the sound off.
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I thought you had the sound off.
I did for the entire game, but I read today’s comments just like you.
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Kevin Cash handled it very well.
When asked he said he knew there was speculation, but credit should be given to the guys who hit line drives.
Enjoyed that story, Jim.
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Kevin Cash handled it very well.
When asked he said he knew there was speculation, but credit should be given to the guys who hit line drives.
Enjoyed that story, Jim.
I agree re Cash. Glasnow too.
Thanks.
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I agree re Cash. Glasnow too.
Thanks.
Cash is a class-act. No surprise he and Hinch are friends. I wish this club well in the future when not playing Houston.
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Every time a pitcher gets hit hard, his (and others’) first thought is “I must be tipping somehow. They knew what was coming.” Well, maybe.
I happen to think it is good baseball to study a pitcher’s grip or mannerisms to determine if he is doing things differently on fast balls and breaking pitches. I did that for three years coaching first base for the Longhorns, and I was able to let the hitters know who wanted to know what was coming. Our first baseman, Bob Snoddy, won the SWC batting title my senior year and gave me credit in a newspaper interview, making Coach Falk apoplectic at this disclosure. One has to be certain when calling pitches for hitters because crossing the hitter up is dangerous and loses his trust in the credibility of the info.
I did this as often as possible coaching HS also. At McCallum in the ‘70s, we faced an outstanding pitcher named Tommy Boggs for three years. I called every single one of his pitches for three years because of a mannerism he had by sticking his tongue in his cheek on curves. He threw very hard, and this helped hitters get ready for his fast ball. Knowing what was coming helped us beat him every time we faced him his sophomore and junior years.
Despite our knowledge, Tommy beat us three times in close games his senior year, including a playoff game. Shoddy defense at times plus bad luck contributed, and our hitters’ knowing what he was throwing was not the deciding factor in these games. Tommy was big, strong, a fierce competitor, and he had improved so much he was drafted second overall in the first round by the Rangers and played several years in MLB for the Rangers and the Braves.
Here is the bottom line on this issue, as Boggs showed us and as Glasnow showed the Astros after the first inning last night: a hitter can know what the pitcher will throw, either by a call from the bench or by watching for the tell, but he still has to hit the ball. Using tipping pitches as the excuse for being hit hard is at least partially valid, but the excuse also denigrates the hitters’ skills.
Great post, Jim.
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Great post, Jim.
Thank you, JG.
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Thank you, JG.
You are welcome. Thanks for sharing it.
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What happened last night happens literally every single pitch of every single baseball game ever played. The pitcher tries to fool the hitter, the hitter tries to recognize what pitch is being thrown and hit it. This is the foundation of the game itself. It's mindboggling that anyone who has ever seen a game even bats an eyelash. THIS IS THE GAME OF BASEBALL!!!!
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Maybe the discussion was about something else, but if I had determined that a guy was tipping pitches, I wouldn't announce it to the world by grabbing Correa on his way to the plate and excitedly explaining it to him.
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Bregman's at bat in the first inning was interesting. He clearly knew which pitch was coming. He absolutely spit on the first pitch curveball, took a vicious hack at the second pitch fastball, then decides the 1-1 curveball is his pitch and strokes it to the gap for a double. A fine piece of hitting by Bregman.
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Maybe the discussion was about something else, but if I had determined that a guy was tipping pitches, I wouldn't announce it to the world by grabbing Correa on his way to the plate and excitedly explaining it to him.
If the TV camera hadn't picked up their meeting, nobody wouldn't noticed a thing.
There were several shots of players discussing probably the tipped pitches during the first inning.
How would you have suggested Bregman let Correa know? Let him finish his at bat then whisper to him in the dugout?
Also, knowing what pitch was coming did nothing for Correa. He had a horrible AB.
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What happened last night happens literally every single pitch of every single baseball game ever played. The pitcher tries to fool the hitter, the hitter tries to recognize what pitch is being thrown and hit it. This is the foundation of the game itself. It's mindboggling that anyone who has ever seen a game even bats an eyelash. THIS IS THE GAME OF BASEBALL!!!!
Exactly.
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Also, knowing what pitch was coming did nothing for Correa. He had a horrible AB.
Yep, as did Reddick. Reddick knew the fastball was coming and swung and missed 3 of 'em.
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What happened last night happens literally every single pitch of every single baseball game ever played. The pitcher tries to fool the hitter, the hitter tries to recognize what pitch is being thrown and hit it. This is the foundation of the game itself. It's mindboggling that anyone who has ever seen a game even bats an eyelash. THIS IS THE GAME OF BASEBALL!!!!
Agreed. Hell, it could be argued that Tampa Bay was stealing signs, the way they laid off quality breaking pitches (Osuna's outing in Game 2 comes to mind) throughout the series. I don't think that is the case, but their ability to do so was impressive.
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Agreed. Hell, it could be argued that Tampa Bay was stealing signs, the way they laid off quality breaking pitches (Osuna's outing in Game 2 comes to mind) throughout the series. I don't think that is the case, but their ability to do so was impressive.
Regardless, good teams steal signs and there is no rule against it as long as it's not being done outside of the accepted guidelines. Picking up signals from the coaches boxes or while on base is just total gamesmanship.
If you are legally stealing signs, good for you for being smart enough to do it and pulling it off.
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Kevin Cash handled it very well.
When asked he said he knew there was speculation, but credit should be given to the guys who hit line drives.
Enjoyed that story, Jim.
Cash is a good guy and an innovative manager. And a good one at that. The opener idea was deployed quite well to keep the team afloat while Glasnow and Snell were out. I understand why he and Hinch are friends.
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Regardless, good teams steal signs and there is no rule against it as long as it's not being done outside of the accepted guidelines. Picking up signals from the coaches boxes or while on base is just total gamesmanship.
If you are legally stealing signs, good for you for being smart enough to do it and pulling it off.
Jomboy's got you covered. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFOtsJZp_iw)
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Jomboy's got you covered. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFOtsJZp_iw)
Was literally coming to post that very same thing.
Jomboy is a much better lip reader than me.
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What happened last night happens literally every single pitch of every single baseball game ever played. The pitcher tries to fool the hitter, the hitter tries to recognize what pitch is being thrown and hit it. This is the foundation of the game itself. It's mindboggling that anyone who has ever seen a game even bats an eyelash. THIS IS THE GAME OF BASEBALL!!!!
A-Rod inferred there was something nefarious about what the Astros did to Glasnow. He highlighted the Bregman at-bat as proof that the Astros had the pitches, but did not expound on the fact that t was likely completely legit. He just left it hanging as “I don’t know how they got them, but they had them...”
Dick
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following that line of reasoning every time a game is won then the loosing pitcher was tipping his pitchers. no skill necessary by the hitter.
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A-Rod inferred there was something nefarious about what the Astros did to Glasnow. He highlighted the Bregman at-bat as proof that the Astros had the pitches, but did not expound on the fact that t was likely completely legit. He just left it hanging as “I don’t know how they got them, but they had them...”
Fuck ARod.
Dick
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Jomboy needs to do pbp for a live broadcast.
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Jomboy needs to do pbp for a live broadcast.
That would only be entertaining if the Yankees were losing badly.
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If it's truly an exceptional pitch (like, Cole slider when it's on), I might tip 20-25%.
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Sources: Yankees dugout erupts over Astros' alleged sign stealing (https://www.sny.tv/yankees/news/sources-yankees-dugout-erupts-over-astros-alleged-sign-stealing/311184886)
Yankees players and coaches became angry with the Astros during Game 1 of the ALCS when they noticed a whistling sound in the Astros' dugout -- which they believed was an over-the-line example of sign stealing, and a violation of the game's unwritten rules.
According to three sources, a Yankees coach noticed a whistling sound in the opposing dugout on certain pitches on Saturday night in Houston. The Yankees started yelling across the field, and people in the dugouts argued back and forth.
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Sources: Yankees dugout erupts over Astros' alleged sign stealing (https://www.sny.tv/yankees/news/sources-yankees-dugout-erupts-over-astros-alleged-sign-stealing/311184886)
Yankees players and coaches became angry with the Astros during Game 1 of the ALCS when they noticed a whistling sound in the Astros' dugout -- which they believed was an over-the-line example of sign stealing, and a violation of the game's unwritten rules.
According to three sources, a Yankees coach noticed a whistling sound in the opposing dugout on certain pitches on Saturday night in Houston. The Yankees started yelling across the field, and people in the dugouts argued back and forth.
I guess this is what it's going to be like for us as long as we're awesome.
When the Yankees won World Series all the time I didn't think they were dirty, I just resented that they would always have things go preposterously right for them. When the would-be wild pitch smacked into Kerwin Danley in yesterday's game I thought: here we go again. Then the next pitch happened, and I immediately and irresponsibly started reading portends into it.
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Sources: Yankees dugout erupts over Astros' alleged sign stealing (https://www.sny.tv/yankees/news/sources-yankees-dugout-erupts-over-astros-alleged-sign-stealing/311184886)
Yankees players and coaches became angry with the Astros during Game 1 of the ALCS when they noticed a whistling sound in the Astros' dugout -- which they believed was an over-the-line example of sign stealing, and a violation of the game's unwritten rules.
According to three sources, a Yankees coach noticed a whistling sound in the opposing dugout on certain pitches on Saturday night in Houston. The Yankees started yelling across the field, and people in the dugouts argued back and forth.
You'd think if they were stealing signs in Game 1 it would have done them more good.
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You'd think if they were stealing signs in Game 1 it would have done them more good.
Three goddamn hits? That's all we got? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvU26k8Fsv0)
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You'd think if they were stealing signs in Game 1 it would have done them more good.
They stopped so they could win, of course.
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Also, props to Altuve for stealing Sanchez’s passed ball sign.
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This whole “controversy” is hilarios, and the implication the Astros are cheating is infuriating. Picking up tells on certain pitches is as old as baseball, and getting angry about a whistled signal is so Yankee. The universal way to tell the hitter what is coming after the tip is figured out is “first name fastball, last name curve.” Perhaps a whistle was easier to hear, but there absoluteMy is nothing wrong with this as long as technology is not used in real time. Also nothing wrong with studying video.
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Eduardo Perez did a great job dismissing this accusation on XM MLB radio this morning. Spoke about how common it was but really made a point to talk about all of the different ways that a sloppy catcher could be giving away the pitch (leading with the left foot, butt up on a breaking ball, legs too wide on the sign, fingers too low and showing under the leg). He never mentioned Sanchez by name but wondered if that might have been his insinuation.
His last point was that usually the team that complains the loudest about it is usually paranoid because they are doing it too (maybe less successfully).
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Eduardo Perez did a great job dismissing this accusation on XM MLB radio this morning. Spoke about how common it was but really made a point to talk about all of the different ways that a sloppy catcher could be giving away the pitch (leading with the left foot, butt up on a breaking ball, legs too wide on the sign, fingers too low and showing under the leg). He never mentioned Sanchez by name but wondered if that might have been his insinuation.
His last point was that usually the team that complains the loudest about it is usually paranoid because they are doing it too (maybe less successfully).
This is the elephant in the room. Catchers tip pitches far more often than pitchers do.
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Yeah, Perez broke it down nicely on XM this morning. He also pointed out that the Yankees will probably hear a lot of whistling from Astros fans come Game 6...
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Yeah, Perez broke it down nicely on XM this morning. He also pointed out that the Yankees will probably hear a lot of whistling from Astros fans come Game 6...
That is what I thought after I read the article. There will be people whistling constantly the next time the Yanks come to Houston.
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That is what I thought after I read the article. There will be people whistling constantly the next time the Yanks come to Houston.
I see what you did there.
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That is what I thought after I read the article. There will be people whistling constantly the next time the Yanks come to Houston.
Excellent. Well done.
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That is what I thought after I read the article. There will be people whistling constantly the next time the Yanks come to Houston.
That won’t work. The Astros would have to find a new way to signal signs.
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That won’t work. The Astros would have to find a new way to signal signs.
We'll be at home by then, and can use the super-secret signaling system...or SSSS...so the whistles won't be an issue.
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We'll be at home by then, and can use the super-secret signaling system...or SSSS...so the whistles won't be an issue.
That’s the one with the semaphore flags and hunting horns? Ok then. I guess fans can whistle.
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We've got a giant screen out in RF. Let's just use that.
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We've got a giant screen out in RF. Let's just use that.
Too obvious.
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That’s the one with the semaphore flags and hunting horns? Ok then. I guess fans can whistle.
No. They abandoned that after the Great Shane Reynolds Squeeze Bunt debacle.
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micro speakers in the gloves and bats?
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Pitching Ninja on Josh James (https://mobile.twitter.com/PitchingNinja/status/1185934748310556674?s=19)
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I am guessing that is what Strom was talking to him about between innings.
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This is the elephant in the room. Catchers tip pitches far more often than pitchers do.
Saw something on this on MLB network a year or two ago.
Can't remember the catcher, but they had several clips and showed how for sliders he would widen to prepare to cover ground, for other pitches his butt was up in the air, etc.
I couldn't believe how obvious it was. Much less subtle than how high a pitcher's glove is or how many times he wiggles the ball.
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Pitching Ninja on Josh James (https://mobile.twitter.com/PitchingNinja/status/1185934748310556674?s=19)
Love the rapt attention James is paying to Strom as well as the fatherly oat on the knee at the end. Everything about that is great.
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Saw an article today comparing the Astros alleged whistling to the Black Sox Scandal.
Astros hate is strong these days.
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Saw an article today comparing the Astros alleged whistling to the Black Sox Scandal.
Astros hate is strong these days.
Any excellence is hated these days. That which is good, true, and beautiful is having a hard time in this present age.
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Any excellence is hated these days. That which is good, true, and beautiful is having a hard time in this present age.
I agree 100%. When the Astros were a young, upstart, plucky underdog, they were beloved. But after a few years it's "alright...enough of this". I want the Astros to be the team that everyone is tired of seeing in the World Series.
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I agree 100%. When the Astros were a young, upstart, plucky underdog, they were beloved. But after a few years it's "alright...enough of this". I want the Astros to be the team that everyone is tired of seeing in the World Series.
+1
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Saw an article today comparing the Astros alleged whistling to the Black Sox Scandal.
Astros hate is strong these days.
Good fucking grief.
People are stupid.
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People are stupid.
I trust that you're not just now noticing.
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I trust that you're not just now noticing.
More like a daily affirmation.
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Saw an article today comparing the Astros alleged whistling to the Black Sox Scandal.
Astros hate is strong these days.
Where was this article? Haven't seen this one yet.
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Where was this article? Haven't seen this one yet.
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/national/story/2019-10-24/a-century-after-black-sox-baseball-cheating-goes-high-tech
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I agree 100%. When the Astros were a young, upstart, plucky underdog, they were beloved. But after a few years it's "alright...enough of this". I want the Astros to be the team that everyone is tired of seeing in the World Series.
+1
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I agree 100%. When the Astros were a young, upstart, plucky underdog, they were beloved. But after a few years it's "alright...enough of this". I want the Astros to be the team that everyone is tired of seeing in the World Series.
Total agreement. The article in The Athletic yesterday was vicious.
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Verducci on how Strasburg was tipping his pitches (https://www.si.com/mlb/2019/10/30/stephen-strasburg-nationals-saved-season-world-series-game-6) in the first two innings last night, but the Nationals caught and fixed it:
“Stephen, you’re doing it again.”
Menhart didn’t have to show video to Strasburg. The pitcher knew instantly what he was doing to telegraph his pitches. The pitching coach and his pitcher came up with a fix. Strasburg would reach into his glove for his grip, then briefly start flapping his glove at the waist before raising his hands at the set position.
The game flipped right there.
“He told me it was—what is the right word here—just so re-assuring to him,” Menhart said. “It gave him such relief and confidence. He said, ‘I got takes on balls they were hitting before, and they were swinging and missing at balls they were spitting on in the first inning.’ It freed him up.”
Strasburg gave up two runs in the first inning and none thereafter. The Astros went 3-for-22 after Strasburg stopped tipping his pitches. They didn’t know what hit them.
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Verducci on how Strasburg was tipping his pitches (https://www.si.com/mlb/2019/10/30/stephen-strasburg-nationals-saved-season-world-series-game-6) in the first two innings last night, but the Nationals caught and fixed it:
“Stephen, you’re doing it again.”
Menhart didn’t have to show video to Strasburg. The pitcher knew instantly what he was doing to telegraph his pitches. The pitching coach and his pitcher came up with a fix. Strasburg would reach into his glove for his grip, then briefly start flapping his glove at the waist before raising his hands at the set position.
The game flipped right there.
Yep, heard that from a buddy at the water cooler this morning. Too damn bad Altuve's sac fly didn't go out or for a double...or same with Yuli's shot to the wall. There were more runs to be had that first inning for sure.
“He told me it was—what is the right word here—just so re-assuring to him,” Menhart said. “It gave him such relief and confidence. He said, ‘I got takes on balls they were hitting before, and they were swinging and missing at balls they were spitting on in the first inning.’ It freed him up.”
Strasburg gave up two runs in the first inning and none thereafter. The Astros went 3-for-22 after Strasburg stopped tipping his pitches. They didn’t know what hit them.
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Verducci on how Strasburg was tipping his pitches (https://www.si.com/mlb/2019/10/30/stephen-strasburg-nationals-saved-season-world-series-game-6) in the first two innings last night, but the Nationals caught and fixed it:
“Stephen, you’re doing it again.”
Menhart didn’t have to show video to Strasburg. The pitcher knew instantly what he was doing to telegraph his pitches. The pitching coach and his pitcher came up with a fix. Strasburg would reach into his glove for his grip, then briefly start flapping his glove at the waist before raising his hands at the set position.
The game flipped right there.
“He told me it was—what is the right word here—just so re-assuring to him,” Menhart said. “It gave him such relief and confidence. He said, ‘I got takes on balls they were hitting before, and they were swinging and missing at balls they were spitting on in the first inning.’ It freed him up.”
Strasburg gave up two runs in the first inning and none thereafter. The Astros went 3-for-22 after Strasburg stopped tipping his pitches. They didn’t know what hit them.
Interesting perspective on the information gamesmanship. Clearly, the Astros are talented hitters. But, if they get skunked when their information is cut off and then fail at the classic "see the ball, hit the ball", it appears that might be a weakness on the team construct or players ability to adapt to any circumstance that presents itself.
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Interesting perspective on the information gamesmanship. Clearly, the Astros are talented hitters. But, if they get skunked when their information is cut off and then fail at the classic "see the ball, hit the ball", it appears that might be a weakness on the team construct or players ability to adapt to any circumstance that presents itself.
There are several players who, IMO, lack emotional self-control in important situations. All players fall victim to it on occasion. However the Astros have a few who regularly fall victim to it. Altuve and Correa appear to me to be the biggest culprits. Springer seems to have slowly made progress in that area. That weakness is the separator.
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Insightful commentary.
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There are several players who, IMO, lack emotional self-control in important situations. All players fall victim to it on occasion. However the Astros have a few who regularly fall victim to it. Altuve and Correa appear to me to be the biggest culprits. Springer seems to have slowly made progress in that area. That weakness is the separator.
So true. Contact Altuve’s patient approach against Chapman in Game 6 with his abysmal AB in the 5th last night. What changes in him?
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So true. Contact Altuve’s patient approach against Chapman in Game 6 with his abysmal AB in the 5th last night. What changes in him?
It's so confusing. For most of this postseason he's really been quite patient, especially for him. But last night was a terrible regression.
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Insightful commentary.
In fairness, it makes more sense than some posts that we see.
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Verducci on how Strasburg was tipping his pitches (https://www.si.com/mlb/2019/10/30/stephen-strasburg-nationals-saved-season-world-series-game-6) in the first two innings last night, but the Nationals caught and fixed it:
“Stephen, you’re doing it again.”
Menhart didn’t have to show video to Strasburg. The pitcher knew instantly what he was doing to telegraph his pitches. The pitching coach and his pitcher came up with a fix. Strasburg would reach into his glove for his grip, then briefly start flapping his glove at the waist before raising his hands at the set position.
The game flipped right there.
“He told me it was—what is the right word here—just so re-assuring to him,” Menhart said. “It gave him such relief and confidence. He said, ‘I got takes on balls they were hitting before, and they were swinging and missing at balls they were spitting on in the first inning.’ It freed him up.”
Strasburg gave up two runs in the first inning and none thereafter. The Astros went 3-for-22 after Strasburg stopped tipping his pitches. They didn’t know what hit them.
This is a load of crap. It really pisses me off when the dumbass fails to mention that Strasburg happens to be a very good pitcher. It's often said that if you ever get to a star starter, you better get to him early. The Astros got a little, but not enough. The 3-22 was pure Strasburg.