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General Discussion => Talk Zone => Topic started by: Limey on July 17, 2006, 11:32:05 am

Title: WTF Happened?
Post by: Limey on July 17, 2006, 11:32:05 am
When I had to leave the game it was 3-0 Astros (to play golf in the 100 degree heat - only mad dogs and Englishmen...).  Then I find out it was a 9-3 loss!  WTF?  That turned around faster than  The Hoff with a whiney chick in his car.
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: pravata on July 17, 2006, 11:39:11 am
Quote:

When I had to leave the game it was 3-0 Astros (to play golf in the 100 degree heat - only mad dogs and Englishmen...).  Then I find out it was a 9-3 loss!  WTF?  That turned around faster than  The Hoff with a whiney chick in his car.



Buchholz was cruising until the 5th.  His slider left him. Walked the 8th hitter, then walked the light hitting Alfredo Amezaga and Ramirez homered.  After that, when the Astros did hit the ball, all three Marlins outfielders made circus catches.  Unbelievable.
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: Lefty on July 17, 2006, 11:51:22 am
The catch Amezaga made on Huff's gapper (triple) was the play of the game.  Sick.
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: astro pete on July 17, 2006, 12:00:13 pm
Quote:

When I had to leave the game it was 3-0 Astros (to play golf in the 100 degree heat - only mad dogs and Englishmen...).  Then I find out it was a 9-3 loss!  WTF?  That turned around faster than  The Hoff with a whiney chick in his car.



Our bullpen did a nice job turning a close game into a laugher.
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: Dobro on July 17, 2006, 12:05:23 pm
Quote:

Quote:

When I had to leave the game it was 3-0 Astros (to play golf in the 100 degree heat - only mad dogs and Englishmen...).  Then I find out it was a 9-3 loss!  WTF?  That turned around faster than  The Hoff with a whiney chick in his car.



Buchholz was cruising until the 5th.  His slider left him. Walked the 8th hitter, then walked the light hitting Alfredo Amezaga and Ramirez homered.  After that, when the Astros did hit the ball, all three Marlins outfielders made circus catches.  Unbelievable.


The bullpen got blowed up, sir.
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: Froback on July 17, 2006, 12:45:24 pm
Quote:

The bullpen got blowed up, sir.


That seems to be an all too familiar refrain this year after many years of bullpen dominance.
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: austro on July 17, 2006, 12:47:05 pm
Wandy hasn't seemed very reliable out of the pen.  Is he going to be the odd man out when Backe is activated?  It seems like he may not be well-suited to bullpen work and needs to keep starting.

(Sorry if this has been hashed to death already; I was out of town for the last week plus, so I'm sure I've missed a lot.)
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: Fredia on July 17, 2006, 02:08:15 pm
what is sick in all of this doesnt wandy lead this team in wins? what happpened
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: Limey on July 17, 2006, 02:32:48 pm
Quote:

what is sick in all of this doesnt wandy lead this team in wins? what happpened


Wandy has gets plenty of run support to mask his not so decent ERA,  Think Jeriome Robertson...with facial herpes.

No great loss if Wandy goes back to AAA, IMHO.  Nieve has been a different pitcher on relief duty (throwing much harder) and better equipped to stay over Wandy when Backe is actibated (sic).
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: Golden Sombrero on July 17, 2006, 02:33:56 pm
Quote:

When I had to leave the game it was 3-0 Astros (to play golf in the 100 degree heat - only mad dogs and Englishmen...).  Then I find out it was a 9-3 loss!  WTF?  That turned around faster than  The Hoff with a whiney chick in his car.



Something must have made Consumption very angry, because he turned from Bruce Banner to the Hulk in the blink of an eye.  The Wandy in the BP experiment should be declared a failure.  The rest of the relievers gave up their customary run per appearace.  The Astros offense had met its quota of runs for the month.
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: VirtualBob on July 17, 2006, 02:37:14 pm
Quote:

Quote:

what is sick in all of this doesnt wandy lead this team in wins? what happpened


Wandy has gets plenty of run support to mask his not so decent ERA ...



If that's all it takes to get the offense untracked, let's trot him out there every four days!
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: chuck on July 17, 2006, 02:51:42 pm
Quote:

The bullpen got blowed up, sir.



I'm sure you know the starting pitcher gave up 4 runs and the Astros scored 3.
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: astro pete on July 17, 2006, 03:20:42 pm
Quote:

Quote:

The bullpen got blowed up, sir.



I'm sure you know the starting pitcher gave up 4 runs and the Astros scored 3.



The starting pitcher kept his team in the game.  The bullpen was terrible.
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: Arky Vaughan on July 17, 2006, 04:08:10 pm
Quote:

Wandy hasn't seemed very reliable out of the pen.  Is he going to be the odd man out when Backe is activated?  It seems like he may not be well-suited to bullpen work and needs to keep starting.

(Sorry if this has been hashed to death already; I was out of town for the last week plus, so I'm sure I've missed a lot.)



I'm not sure Wandy is very reliable in the bullpen or the rotation.
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: astrojo on July 17, 2006, 04:31:50 pm
Quote:

Quote:

Wandy hasn't seemed very reliable out of the pen.  Is he going to be the odd man out when Backe is activated?  It seems like he may not be well-suited to bullpen work and needs to keep starting.

(Sorry if this has been hashed to death already; I was out of town for the last week plus, so I'm sure I've missed a lot.)



I'm not sure Wandy is very reliable in the bullpen or the rotation.



I agree.  I scream at the TV when he is brought in to protect a 1 run deficit and keep the game close enough for the offense to make a comeback.
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: Arky Vaughan on July 17, 2006, 04:43:17 pm
Quote:

I agree.  I scream at the TV when he is brought in to protect a 1 run deficit and keep the game close enough for the offense to make a comeback.



The league is batting .289/.370/.472 against Wandy.
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: astro pete on July 17, 2006, 05:38:18 pm
Quote:

Quote:

I agree.  I scream at the TV when he is brought in to protect a 1 run deficit and keep the game close enough for the offense to make a comeback.



The league is batting .289/.370/.472 against Wandy.



What is it batting since May 1?  I'm guessing over .300
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: pravata on July 17, 2006, 05:49:39 pm
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Wandy hasn't seemed very reliable out of the pen.  Is he going to be the odd man out when Backe is activated?  It seems like he may not be well-suited to bullpen work and needs to keep starting.

(Sorry if this has been hashed to death already; I was out of town for the last week plus, so I'm sure I've missed a lot.)



I'm not sure Wandy is very reliable in the bullpen or the rotation.



I agree.  I scream at the TV when he is brought in to protect a 1 run deficit and keep the game close enough for the offense to make a comeback.



Purpura had to find out whether W.Rodriguez was going to be an option from the bullpen.  At this stage 2 chances is all he's likely to get.  Now, if they want to strengthen the bullpen, somebody is going to have to be traded.  They were hoping not to have to do that and that Rodriguez would work.
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: Mr. Happy on July 17, 2006, 05:57:25 pm
I've seen enough of Wandy. Nine wins and count our blessings.
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: Arky Vaughan on July 17, 2006, 06:37:56 pm
Quote:

What is it batting since May 1?  I'm guessing over .300



Basically, he's been giving up an All-Star performance since May 1:
Split          Avg   OBP   Slg
------------------------------
Before May 1  .239  .298  .363
After May 1   .304  .394  .506
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: Limey on July 17, 2006, 06:45:45 pm
Quote:

Basically, he's been giving up an All-Star performance since May 1:
Split          Avg   OBP   Slg
------------------------------
Before May 1  .239  .298  .363
After May 1   .304  .394  .506



Since May 1, his ERA has doubled...literally.  2.61 to 5.22.  He's had one win in the last month (vs. the Rangers - he gave up 5 runs in 7 innings, but was bailed out by a 7-run inning by the good guys).
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: Reuben on July 17, 2006, 07:03:32 pm
Quote:

Quote:

What is it batting since May 1?  I'm guessing over .300



Basically, he's been giving up an All-Star performance since May 1:
Split          Avg   OBP   Slg
------------------------------
Before May 1  .239  .298  .363
After May 1   .304  .394  .506



Wow, funny, that's the type of hitter the Astros need right now. If only Wandy were clonable/tradable.
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: utastro on July 17, 2006, 07:13:03 pm
Quote:

Quote:

What is it batting since May 1?  I'm guessing over .300



Basically, he's been giving up an All-Star performance since May 1:
Split          Avg   OBP   Slg
------------------------------
Before May 1  .239  .298  .363
After May 1   .304  .394  .506




Maybe he has turned back into Eny Cabreja.
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: Limey on July 17, 2006, 07:16:39 pm
Quote:

Wow, funny, that's the type of hitter the Astros need right now. If only Wandy were clonable/tradable.


Nearest you can get in the NL is the Dodgers who have a staff-combined .280 .353 .426.  Amazingly, almost half the AL has team pitching that as bad or worse than the Dodgers.
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: Arky Vaughan on July 18, 2006, 12:57:07 am
Quote:

Wow, funny, that's the type of hitter the Astros need right now. If only Wandy were clonable/tradable.



Maybe they could just change the rules to make it like UT co-ed softball used to be, where each team pitches to its own line-up.
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: Arky Vaughan on July 18, 2006, 01:21:36 am
Quote:

Nearest you can get in the NL is the Dodgers who have a staff-combined .280 .353 .426.  Amazingly, almost half the AL has team pitching that as bad or worse than the Dodgers.



Here?s an interesting comparison. Usually, you?d expect AL pitchers to have worse numbers, since AL pitchers have to face the DH, while NL pitchers get to face their counterparts. But this year, AL pitchers are outperforming NL pitchers:

Line                     Avg   OBP   Slg
---------------------------------------- 
Allowed by AL Pitchers  .269  .334  .428
Allowed by NL Pitchers  .269  .340  .432
This is particularly counterintuitive when you compare AL designated hitters to NL pitchers and see the significant additional difficulty AL pitchers have to face:

Line                     Avg   OBP   Slg
----------------------------------------
AL Designated Hitters   .260  .344  .458
NL Pitchers             .133  .169  .176
But here?s probably what explains why AL pitchers look better than NL pitchers this year. Check out the interleague play results:

Line                         Avg   OBP   Slg
--------------------------------------------
AL Pitchers vs. NL Hitters  .251  .305  .351
NL Pitchers vs. AL Hitters  .275  .335  .398
When you throw out interleague play, this is what you get:

Line                         Avg   OBP   Slg
--------------------------------------------
AL Pitchers vs. AL Hitters  .270  .331  .416
NL Pitchers vs. NL Hitters  .265  .329  .414
Still, that?s not a huge difference. Especially given that AL position players (excluding DH or pitchers) and NL position players (excluding DH or pitchers) are hitting about the same overall:

Line                  Avg   OBP   Slg
--------------------------------------
NL Position Players  .274  .339  .434
AL Position Players  .276  .336  .429
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: astrox on July 18, 2006, 01:14:00 pm
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The bullpen got blowed up, sir.



I'm sure you know the starting pitcher gave up 4 runs and the Astros scored 3.



The starting pitcher kept his team in the game.  The bullpen was terrible.



So I guess the argument you're trying to make is that since the bullpen allowed the run deficit to exceed one run, the offense gave up?
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: pravata on July 18, 2006, 01:20:08 pm
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The bullpen got blowed up, sir.



I'm sure you know the starting pitcher gave up 4 runs and the Astros scored 3.



The starting pitcher kept his team in the game.  The bullpen was terrible.



So I guess the argument you're trying to make is that since the bullpen allowed the run deficit to exceed one run, the offense gave up?



They didnt give up.  Huff, Burke, and Scott, in consecutive innings, hit the crap out of the ball.  In the 7th, the Marlins outfield suddenly turned into the stunt men from Crouching Tiger Hidden Ball Trick.  Or as Jack Burton once remarked, "...flying around on wires cutting everybody to shreds..."
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: Reuben on July 18, 2006, 02:21:55 pm
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The bullpen got blowed up, sir.



I'm sure you know the starting pitcher gave up 4 runs and the Astros scored 3.



The starting pitcher kept his team in the game.  The bullpen was terrible.



So I guess the argument you're trying to make is that since the bullpen allowed the run deficit to exceed one run, the offense gave up?


Ok, I didn't see the game, but I'm pretty sure that playing for one run is different than playing for six. You can't say with certainty that it didn't matter whether the bullpen gave up 0 runs or 5.

By the way, was this Taylor's first mediocre start? It seems they've all been either great or terrible, but this box score looked decidedly mediocre.
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: astrojo on July 18, 2006, 02:24:11 pm
Quote:


They didnt give up.  Huff, Burke, and Scott, in consecutive innings, hit the crap out of the ball.  In the 7th, the Marlins outfield suddenly turned into the stunt men from Crouching Tiger Hidden Ball Trick.  Or as Jack Burton once remarked, "...flying around on wires cutting everybody to shreds..."



The catch Amezaga (sp?) made against Huff reminded me of Edmonds circa NLCS 2004.
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: BudGirl on July 18, 2006, 03:32:21 pm
Quote:

Quote:


They didnt give up.  Huff, Burke, and Scott, in consecutive innings, hit the crap out of the ball.  In the 7th, the Marlins outfield suddenly turned into the stunt men from Crouching Tiger Hidden Ball Trick.  Or as Jack Burton once remarked, "...flying around on wires cutting everybody to shreds..."



The catch Amezaga (sp?) made against Huff reminded me of Edmonds circa NLCS 2004.



Shut up.
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: astrox on July 18, 2006, 05:17:42 pm
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The bullpen got blowed up, sir.



I'm sure you know the starting pitcher gave up 4 runs and the Astros scored 3.



The starting pitcher kept his team in the game.  The bullpen was terrible.



So I guess the argument you're trying to make is that since the bullpen allowed the run deficit to exceed one run, the offense gave up?



They didnt give up.  Huff, Burke, and Scott, in consecutive innings, hit the crap out of the ball.  In the 7th, the Marlins outfield suddenly turned into the stunt men from Crouching Tiger Hidden Ball Trick.  Or as Jack Burton once remarked, "...flying around on wires cutting everybody to shreds..."



I know that.  It just seems that blaming the bullpen for failing to hold a one run deficit is like placing the July 5th one run, complete game loss to the Cubs on Roy O.
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: JimR on July 18, 2006, 05:40:37 pm
that is what they are on the team to do. Roy also.
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: pravata on July 18, 2006, 05:56:40 pm
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The bullpen got blowed up, sir.



I'm sure you know the starting pitcher gave up 4 runs and the Astros scored 3.



The starting pitcher kept his team in the game.  The bullpen was terrible.



So I guess the argument you're trying to make is that since the bullpen allowed the run deficit to exceed one run, the offense gave up?



They didnt give up.  Huff, Burke, and Scott, in consecutive innings, hit the crap out of the ball.  In the 7th, the Marlins outfield suddenly turned into the stunt men from Crouching Tiger Hidden Ball Trick.  Or as Jack Burton once remarked, "...flying around on wires cutting everybody to shreds..."



I know that.  It just seems that blaming the bullpen for failing to hold a one run deficit is like placing the July 5th one run, complete game loss to the Cubs on Roy O.



The bullpen has become the current scapegoat for all that is wrong. Got to have one and there's too many individuals not playing well to just pick one person to whine about as has been our past practice.  Personally, I think it was the walks by Buccholz that let Sunday's game slip through.  Take away the walks and the superhuman catches and what do you have?
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: JimR on July 18, 2006, 06:05:34 pm
i certainly agree that the walks were the cause of the 4-3 deficit. Buchholz should have cruised for 6 or 7. once he did not, however, the bullpen must "hold 'em right there."

shitfuck, they did not. let's pound some Budweiser.
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: pravata on July 18, 2006, 06:09:48 pm
Quote:

i certainly agree that the walks were the cause of the 4-3 deficit. Buchholz should have cruised for 6 or 7. once he did not, however, the bullpen must "hold 'em right there."

shitfuck, they did not. let's pound some Budweiser.



Oh I did.  They didn't hold em and every attempt by the Astros hitters to get some runs back was thwarted by the other team wanting to win.  Damn them.
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: Limey on July 18, 2006, 06:30:14 pm
Quote:

...and every attempt by the Astros hitters to get some runs back was thwarted by the other team wanting to win.  Damn them.


No proble.  It's the Cubs for the next three.
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: das on July 19, 2006, 08:45:27 am
You need to stop that.
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: jasonact on July 19, 2006, 10:00:49 am
Quote:

Quote:

Nearest you can get in the NL is the Dodgers who have a staff-combined .280 .353 .426.  Amazingly, almost half the AL has team pitching that as bad or worse than the Dodgers.



Here?s an interesting comparison. Usually, you?d expect AL pitchers to have worse numbers, since AL pitchers have to face the DH, while NL pitchers get to face their counterparts. But this year, AL pitchers are outperforming NL pitchers:

Line                     Avg   OBP   Slg
---------------------------------------- 
Allowed by AL Pitchers  .269  .334  .428
Allowed by NL Pitchers  .269  .340  .432
This is particularly counterintuitive when you compare AL designated hitters to NL pitchers and see the significant additional difficulty AL pitchers have to face:

Line                     Avg   OBP   Slg
----------------------------------------
AL Designated Hitters   .260  .344  .458
NL Pitchers             .133  .169  .176
But here?s probably what explains why AL pitchers look better than NL pitchers this year. Check out the interleague play results:

Line                         Avg   OBP   Slg
--------------------------------------------
AL Pitchers vs. NL Hitters  .251  .305  .351
NL Pitchers vs. AL Hitters  .275  .335  .398
When you throw out interleague play, this is what you get:

Line                         Avg   OBP   Slg
--------------------------------------------
AL Pitchers vs. AL Hitters  .270  .331  .416
NL Pitchers vs. NL Hitters  .265  .329  .414
Still, that?s not a huge difference. Especially given that AL position players (excluding DH or pitchers) and NL position players (excluding DH or pitchers) are hitting about the same overall:

Line                  Avg   OBP   Slg
--------------------------------------
NL Position Players  .274  .339  .434
AL Position Players  .276  .336  .429




Good analysis, and I agree with your conclusions, but I always hate seeing the DH compared to hitting pithers because many of those DHs would be in the lineup even if there was no DH. For instance, Boston and Chicago would find a spot on the field for David Ortiz and Jim Thome if there was no DH, meaning that it would the light-hitting 2B/SS/3B/whatever that lost the ABs after the lineups were shuffled, not the batter currently filling the DH role.

To get an accurate comparison, you would have to compare the stats of hitting pitchers to the stats of the player that would be bumped from the lineup if there was no DH, because many times that would not be the DH. Of course, that's nearly impossible to determine beyond an educated guess.
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: Limey on July 19, 2006, 10:45:25 am
Quote:

You need to stop that.


Nice Marmot.
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: das on July 19, 2006, 11:58:03 am
The current Astros lineup makes even a small furry critter look like Cy Young these days.  When Roy got his single in the 3rd with no outs and never flinched on inch towards 2nd during the next 3 AB's, I knew "we" were in for a long night.
Title: Re: WTF Happened?
Post by: Limey on July 19, 2006, 12:09:47 pm
Quote:

The current Astros lineup makes even a small furry critter look like Cy Young these days.  When Roy got his single in the 3rd with no outs and never flinched on inch towards 2nd during the next 3 AB's, I knew "we" were in for a long night.


Don't know what Roy was thinking, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was thinking "Here they go again!"  That sort of frustration is enough to make Mother Theresa buzz an ill-advised fastball to the Cubs' most dangerous hitter on a 2-strike count...