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General Discussion => Talk Zone => Topic started by: JackAstro on October 26, 2017, 12:32:52 pm
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In game one, I was a little mystified when Roberts pulled an absolutely dominant Kershaw at 80-ish pitches and put an inning each on Morrow and Jansen. Then last night he went Full LaRussa and somehow found himself on his 5th pitcher with no outs in the 7th, despite the fact that the good guys had only put together 4 hits to that point.
By the top of the 11th, the bench was empty, LA was down to their worst relief option and staring down the possibility of burning the game 4 starter, and the fucking catcher was playing second base. That is not great! By contrast, the Astros had Maybin, Fisher and Centeno available, Peacock, Gregerson, Liriano and Devo in the pen, and McHugh ready to pitch a whole extra game if needed.
In conclusion, a huge thanks to Dave Roberts for managing the absolute shit out of these games; don't change a thing.
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Well he is in the National. They are used to making more moves.
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Well he is in the National. They are used to making more moves.
Precisely why he should have been smarter about it.
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Precisely why he should have been smarter about it.
This. He should've known that Verlander wasn't going to go 9 because of hitting duty, so there was no need to panic on that front.
He believed his own bullpen's hype. Smoltz was nailing him all night, repeatedly pointing out that using so many pitchers means that someone at some point is going to fail - you can't assume they're all going to be perfect. That's what Roberts did, and he was smoiked by the BBGs as a result.
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In game one, I was a little mystified when Roberts pulled an absolutely dominant Kershaw at 80-ish pitches and put an inning each on Morrow and Jansen. Then last night he went Full LaRussa and somehow found himself on his 5th pitcher with no outs in the 7th, despite the fact that the good guys had only put together 4 hits to that point.
By the top of the 11th, the bench was empty, LA was down to their worst relief option and staring down the possibility of burning the game 4 starter, and the fucking catcher was playing second base. That is not great! By contrast, the Astros had Maybin, Fisher and Centeno available, Peacock, Gregerson, Liriano and Devo in the pen, and McHugh ready to pitch a whole extra game if needed.
In conclusion, a huge thanks to Dave Roberts for managing the absolute shit out of these games; don't change a thing.
I don't know. They had a two run lead and their ace closer on the mound. Roberts was following the script that had been insanely successful all year.
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I don't know. They had a two run lead and their ace closer on the mound. Roberts was following the script that had been insanely successful all year.
I agree with this. If Correa and Marwin don't score on the unscoreable it would have been a perfect deployment of the Dodgers' resources. The only problem is that when every resource goes in to Plan A, you don't have a Plan B.
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I don't know. They had a two run lead and their ace closer on the mound. Roberts was following the script that had been insanely successful all year.
Exactly. Roberts got exactly what he wanted...his ace closer on the mound in the 9th with a lead. Nobody is perfect.
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I agree with this. If Correa and Marwin don't score on the unscoreable it would have been a perfect deployment of the Dodgers' resources. The only problem is that when every resource goes in to Plan A, you don't have a Plan B.
I'm not sure why you're starting a pitcher in Game #2 of the World Series who is going to go, at best, 5 innings, without a plan to get through the next 4 (or 7, as it turned out). Maeda made sense as the replacement, but he was lifted after only 1 1/3rd innings for a lefty-lefty matchup. While that one at-bat worked out (McCann GIDP'd), it meant he now had to go elsewhere to start the 7th, and that meant Stripling who pitched four straight balls before being lifted for Morrow. Having to go to Morrow early begat going to Jansen early which begat the Astros' rally which begat a soul-crushing loss.
So, in many ways, lifting Hill wasn't the problem; it was lifting Maeda for the crime of allowing a single baserunner.
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Exactly. Roberts got exactly what he wanted...his ace closer on the mound in the 9th with a lead. Nobody is perfect.
But he asked him to get 6 outs, which said ace closer had only done once in his career. I think Roberts outsmarted himself.
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Exactly. Roberts got exactly what he wanted...his ace closer on the mound in the 9th with a lead. Nobody is perfect.
The problem was your last sentence. Which means that Roberts counted his chickens before they hatched. If he hadn't he'd have had better bullpen arms behind his closer, just in case.
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But he asked him to get 6 outs, which said ace closer had only done once in his career. I think Roberts outsmarted himself.
I think he knew he had nothing left - a problem all of his own making - and tried to get away with it.
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I'm not sure why you're starting a pitcher in Game #2 of the World Series who is going to go, at best, 5 innings, without a plan to get through the next 4 (or 7, as it turned out). Maeda made sense as the replacement, but he was lifted after only 1 1/3rd innings for a lefty-lefty matchup. While that one at-bat worked out (McCann GIDP'd), it meant he now had to go elsewhere to start the 7th, and that meant Stripling who pitched four straight balls before being lifted for Morrow. Having to go to Morrow early begat going to Jansen early which begat the Astros' rally which begat a soul-crushing loss.
So, in many ways, lifting Hill wasn't the problem; it was lifting Maeda for the crime of allowing a single baserunner.
Avoiding having your starter face the lineup a third time is part of the Dodgers plan. I agree the game might have turned out differently if Roberts wasn't so insistent on playing the lefty matchups, but the only thing Roberts failed to plan for was the Astros strapping on and penetrating the impenetrable.
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I'm not sure why you're starting a pitcher in Game #2 of the World Series who is going to go, at best, 5 innings, without a plan to get through the next 4 (or 7, as it turned out). Maeda made sense as the replacement, but he was lifted after only 1 1/3rd innings for a lefty-lefty matchup. While that one at-bat worked out (McCann GIDP'd), it meant he now had to go elsewhere to start the 7th, and that meant Stripling who pitched four straight balls before being lifted for Morrow. Having to go to Morrow early begat going to Jansen early which begat the Astros' rally which begat a soul-crushing loss.
So, in many ways, lifting Hill wasn't the problem; it was lifting Maeda for the crime of allowing a single baserunner.
I was glad to see Maeda go...
Wonder how long a leash Darvish gets? Doubt too many players get see him twice. And who is LA starting in game 4. I am really interested in seeing what the lineup does at home, after a game like that.
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I was glad to see Maeda go...
Wonder how long a leash Darvish gets? Doubt too many players get see him twice. And who is LA starting in game 4. I am really interested in seeing what the lineup does at home, after a game like that.
Alex Wood is starting Game 4 which may push the strap on imagery to new heights.
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I was glad to see Maeda go...
Wonder how long a leash Darvish gets? Doubt too many players get see him twice. And who is LA starting in game 4. I am really interested in seeing what the lineup does at home, after a game like that.
They start Alex Wood vs. Chris Morton in Game 4. I think the Astros have the "on paper" advantage in both games (McCullers vs. Darvish being Game 3), they have home field advantage and they have the comfort of knowing that they don't have to shorten the game to however long the starter is pitching.
The biggest takeway, IMHO, from Game 2 is that the Astros know they can beat the LA bullpen. The Dodgers just lost a huge psychological advantage. Also, 45+ thousand screaming fans is going to be a thing.
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I'm not sure why you're starting a pitcher in Game #2 of the World Series who is going to go, at best, 5 innings, without a plan to get through the next 4 (or 7, as it turned out). Maeda made sense as the replacement, but he was lifted after only 1 1/3rd innings for a lefty-lefty matchup. While that one at-bat worked out (McCann GIDP'd), it meant he now had to go elsewhere to start the 7th, and that meant Stripling who pitched four straight balls before being lifted for Morrow. Having to go to Morrow early begat going to Jansen early which begat the Astros' rally which begat a soul-crushing loss.
So, in many ways, lifting Hill wasn't the problem; it was lifting Maeda for the crime of allowing a single baserunner.
Why Maeda if you're not going to stretch him out over 3 innings or more? He's their version of McHugh.
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Avoiding having your starter face the lineup a third time is part of the Dodgers plan. I agree the game might have turned out differently if Roberts wasn't so insistent on playing the lefty matchups, but the only thing Roberts failed to plan for was the Astros strapping on and penetrating the impenetrable.
It was still tied 1-1 at that point. He should not have been counting on a lead late in the game. And he knows the back half of his bullpen is penetrable, as FIELDS! showed.
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Alex Wood is starting Game 4 which may push the strap on imagery to new heights.
...or depths....
And Puig is taking a man's relationship with his bat to new places...well, at least in public...errr, national television? Now I am feeling like I am probably a massive old-fashioned bigot because I don't know the correct terminology to describe the love between Puig and his preferred partner.
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Why Maeda if you're not going to stretch him out over 3 innings or more? He's their version of McHugh.
Exactly. Maeda could've gone 3 easily, then Morrow then Jansen and then - according to the media - the Astros would've been eliminated.
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The Dodgers have been using Maeda vs righties only, so they were always going to take him out as soon as he got to McCann, Marwin, Reddick.
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Avoiding having your starter face the lineup a third time is part of the Dodgers plan. I agree the game might have turned out differently if Roberts wasn't so insistent on playing the lefty matchups, but the only thing Roberts failed to plan for was the Astros strapping on and penetrating the impenetrable.
I understand the whole "We're sticking to our plan" philosophy, but I think it helps to allow some flexibility. I haven't actually seen the numbers, but it's being reported that Hill has the best results of any starter in baseball when it comes to the third time through a lineup. If that's true, Roberts might have done the Astros a huge favor by sticking to the plan because Hill was dealing.
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The Dodgers have been using Maeda vs righties only, so they were always going to take him out as soon as he got to McCann, Marwin, Reddick.
In that case he's fucked in extra innings (as we saw last night) unless he lets his starters go 7 when it's close.
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The Dodgers have been using Maeda vs righties only, so they were always going to take him out as soon as he got to McCann, Marwin, Reddick.
He was a regular-season starter. Pitched as many games / innings as Hill. No reason to lift just because of a lefty at the plate. That was gripping of Larry Bowa-esque proportions.
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He was a regular-season starter. Pitched as many games / innings as Hill. No reason to lift just because of a lefty at the plate. That was gripping of Larry Bowa-esque proportions.
IMO, the 5th inning is way too early to be worried about lefty/righty matchups.
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He was a regular-season starter. Pitched as many games / innings as Hill. No reason to lift just because of a lefty at the plate. That was gripping of Larry Bowa-esque proportions.
I know, but thats not the role they have picked out for him.
http://dodgerblue.com/2017-nlds-dodgers-view-kenta-maeda-right-handed-specialist/2017/10/08/
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That was his 6th appearance of the postseason so far and at 1.1 innings was his longest as well.
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I know, but thats not the role they have picked out for him.
http://dodgerblue.com/2017-nlds-dodgers-view-kenta-maeda-right-handed-specialist/2017/10/08/
That's a fine theory, and totally workable most nights. But if you're trying to get 5 innings out of your pen and you will only let half the pitchers face either lefties or righties but not both, then you're going to burn through them like a CA wildfire.
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Apparently they are willing to burn through them like wildfire.
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Or at least nobody had put any pressure on them to make them see the problem yet.
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Or at least nobody had put any pressure on them to make them see the problem yet.
I think this is more the case. The Diamondbacks and Cubs don't vaunt like the Astros do.
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Exactly. Roberts got exactly what he wanted...his ace closer on the mound in the 9th with a lead. Nobody is perfect.
A more accurate phrasing would be that Roberts had his ace closer on the mound with no outs in the 8th after closing the prior game, 5 pitchers already used, a runner in scoring position and the tying run at the plate. If that's exactly what Roberts wanted, ok, but that's pretty much my point.
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I think this is more the case. The Diamondbacks and Cubs don't vaunt like the Astros do.
I'm sure that is what Girardi and Farrell said too.
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A more accurate phrasing would be that Roberts had his ace closer on the mound with no outs in the 8th after closing the prior game, 5 pitchers already used, a runner in scoring position and the tying run at the plate. If that's exactly what Roberts wanted, ok, but that's pretty much my point.
Because Roberts won't let his starter go through the line up three times, he ended up advancing the entry point of his entire bullpen. So all those lobsters (22 in all) weren't wasted.
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A more accurate phrasing would be that Roberts had his ace closer on the mound with no outs in the 8th after closing the prior game, 5 pitchers already used, a runner in scoring position and the tying run at the plate. If that's exactly what Roberts wanted, ok, but that's pretty much my point.
Excellent and exactly right.
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Exactly. Roberts got exactly what he wanted...his ace closer on the mound in the 9th with a lead. Nobody is perfect.
He also now has it set up to bring Kershaw back for game 4 of the Astros win tomorrow night.
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He also now has it set up to bring Kershaw back for game 4 of the Astros win tomorrow night.
We're going to see Kershaw again, either Game #4 or Game #5. If it's Game #4, that means the Dodgers are in trouble, so I'm all for that.
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If Roberts wants to burn Kershaw against Morton in game 4, that would be great. Makes the other matchups better for Houston.
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I think it would be an odd overreaction to start Kershaw on three days rest in game 4 under any circumstance absent being down 0-3 in the series, but that seems to be the Dodger's managerial m.o.
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I think it would be an odd overreaction to start Kershaw on three days rest in game 4 under any circumstance absent being down 0-3 in the series, but that seems to be the Dodger's managerial m.o.
Yep. If the pitcher after Kershaw was a Verlander-type, then I can see the logic of accelerating the rotation. But it's Rich Hill, who has stuff that Roberts doesn't trust, so it would be weird to move up Kershaw when the series could be, at worst, them down 2-1.
Conversely, I can see the Astros wanting to move up Keuchel and Verlander, especially if we win tonight. That way, they both get to pitch at home - maximizing their impact as they won't be lifted for a pinch-hitter any time, and they give us the best chance of closing out at home. Also, both had relatively light starts in LA.
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I think it would be an odd overreaction to start Kershaw on three days rest in game 4 under any circumstance absent being down 0-3 in the series, but that seems to be the Dodger's managerial m.o.
Would that allow him to pitch the potential seventh game as well?
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Would that allow him to pitch the potential seventh game as well?
You know he would.
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You know he would.
It seems like some of Kershaw’s worst playoff starts have been on 3 days’ rest. Alex Wood is their #4 starter and he’s no slouch. It seems like a bad move to trade one fully rested Kershaw start + one Wood/Hill/Darvish start for TWO short-rest Kershaw starts.
If their #4 was Mike Fiers it’d be a different story.
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If their #4 was Mike Fiers it’d be a different story.
You think they'd be interested in a trade?
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It seems like some of Kershaw’s worst playoff starts have been on 3 days’ rest. Alex Wood is their #4 starter and he’s no slouch. It seems like a bad move to trade one fully rested Kershaw start + one Wood/Hill/Darvish start for TWO short-rest Kershaw starts.
If their #4 was Mike Fiers it’d be a different story.
The irony being Fiers pitched a no-hitter against this team.
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The irony being Fiers pitched a no-hitter against this team.
Well, not this team...
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The irony being Fiers pitched a no-hitter against this team.
The last time the Dodgers played here on a Friday.
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Well, not this team...
Justin Turner's hair and beard were noticeably shorter when he struck out swinging to finish it.