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General Discussion => Archive => Game Zone 2016 Archive => Topic started by: Mr. Happy on September 20, 2016, 05:38:54 pm
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Your lineups for tonight's late show:
Astros
RFGeorge Springer (R)
3BY. Gurriel (R)
2BJose Altuve (R)
SSCarlos Correa (R)
CEvan Gattis (R)
1BMarwin Gonzalez (S)
DHTyler White (R)
LFT. Hernandez (R)
CFJake Marisnick (R)
HOU: Joe Musgrove (R) (3-4, 4.71)
Athletics
2B Joe Wendle (L)
SS Marcus Semien (R)
C Stephen Vogt (L)
RF Danny Valencia (R)
3B Ryon Healy (R)
1B Yonder Alonso (L)
CF Brett Eibner (R)
DH Renato Nunez (R)
LF Jake Smolinski (R)
OAK: Sean Manaea (L) (6-9, 4.23)
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IIRC Manea has been pretty tough against our side this year.
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Your lineups for tonight's late show:
Astros
RFGeorge Springer (R)
3BY. Gurriel (R)
2BJose Altuve (R)
SSCarlos Correa (R)
CEvan Gattis (R)
1BMarwin Gonzalez (S)
DHTyler White (R)
LFT. Hernandez (R)
CFJake Marisnick (R)
HOU: Joe Musgrove (R) (3-4, 4.71)
Athletics
2B Joe Wendle (L)
SS Marcus Semien (R)
C Stephen Vogt (L)
LF Khris Davis (R)
3B Ryon Healy (R)
1B Yonder Alonso (L)
CF Brett Eibner (R)
DH Renato Nunez (R)
RF Jake Smolinski (R)
OAK: Sean Manaea (L) (6-9, 4.23)
Davis was scratched with an illness. Valencia in right, Smolinski to left.
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Davis was scratched with an illness. Valencia in right, Smolinski to left.
Fixed. Thanks.
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IIRC Manea has been pretty tough against our side this year.
I think Blum mentioned that Correa, Springer, and Altuve are a combined 1 for 20 against him.
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So what the fuck are all those people waiting on?
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Teoscar with real boneheaded move on the base paths.
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I don't really understand batting average on first pitch. A pitcher can't get a K on the first pitch, so the denominator, I assume, is the number of times the first pitch is hit and the numerator is the number of hits.
So, say the pitcher #1 has thrown 100 first pitches, 90 of which are strikes, 10 are put in play and 3 are hits. He has a 300 average on the first pitch.
Pitcher #2 has thrown 100 first pitches, 90 of which are balls, 10 are put in play and 3 are hits. Again, a 300 average on the first pitch.
Pitcher #3 has thrown 100 first pitches, all of which are hit, 30 for hits. Again, a 300 average on the first pitch.
These pitchers are not similar at all with their first pitch.
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Teoscar with real boneheaded move on the base paths.
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He gets away with it, but that's just being a dipshit.
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A's now playing this game under protest.
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He gets away with it, but that's just being a dipshit.
It is dumb in that there was no need, but he was simply reacting to the ump's call.
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It is dumb in that there was no need, but he was simply reacting to the ump's call.
And it was still a really stupid move, one you're taught since Little League not to make, one the first base coach was yelling at him not to make. There is no way to spin that.
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A's now playing this game under protest.
I don't understand how Teo was not given out, it seemed more obvious than Jake being called out?
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And it was still a really stupid move, one you're taught since Little League not to make, one the first base coach was yelling at him not to make. There is no way to spin that.
Really? So, if Marisnick clearly makes it safely to first, and it is called as such by the ump, is it stupid for Hernandez to get off the base? An ump's call means something.
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I don't understand how Teo was not given out, it seemed more obvious than Jake being called out?
The argument is that the call on Marisnick influenced Teo. When that call was ruled incorrect, they had to put Teo back where he was. You can't give the A's a double play because of an overturned call.
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Really? So, if Marisnick clearly makes it safely to first, and it is called as such by the ump, is it stupid for Hernandez to get off the base? An ump's call means something.
Yes. It's incredibly stupid.
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Yes. It's incredibly stupid.
Yeah, the more I think of it, and I hate to say it, but you are correct.
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Altuve has scalded two balls tonight with nothing to show for it. I'm starting to wonder if he's going to get to 200.
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Yeah, the more I think of it, and I hate to say it, but you are correct.
That's what everybody says.
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A's now playing this game under protest.
Radio guys saying it is still being played under protest... There was no score so what would be the basis for a protest?
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Rollie Fingers back at it again with the safari hat. Maybe in the later innings he'll don a trilby.
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Radio guys saying it is still being played under protest... There was no score so what would be the basis for a protest?
Rule applied incorrectly. Doesn't matter what the score is. Of course, they'll lose the protest.
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Rollie Fingers back at it again with the safari hat. Maybe in the later innings he'll don a trilby.
I can't believe he doesn't wear a boater.
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I can't believe he doesn't wear a boater.
I'm sure he does but at the moment a boater is not seasonally appropriate.
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Rule applied incorrectly. Doesn't matter what the score is. Of course, they'll lose the protest.
Did they protest strenuously?
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I'm sure he does but at the moment a boater is not seasonally appropriate.
I suppose today is the day to switch to felt. In that case, a homburg would be the cold weather equivalent. Quite formal for the ball yard.
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Did they protest strenuously?
They did, those A's, in their "faggoty-ass whites."
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And there goes Musgrove's no-no...lost it on the shift. Of course.
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Another routine nubber ends up a hit due to the shift.
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And now Musgrove pitching his ass off but ground control insists on fucking him over. So he's out with the bases juiced and one out. Devenski in.
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I believe these are exactly the circumstances under which Musgrove left his last start against the A's.
Hope Devenski handles this as well as Gregerson did.
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Fuck! Stop moving all the fucking infielders out of the fucking way!!!
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Food for thought: does or should a manager have an obligation to his team's fans to go kick dirt on a home plate umpire with a Jackson Pollack strike zone?
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Food for thought: does or should a manager have an obligation to his team's fans to go kick dirt on a home plate umpire with a Jackson Pollack strike zone?
No, but a pitcher should have free range to beat the living shit out of the manager for making him have to get five fucking routine groundball outs an inning.
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Oh, were you annoyed by that? I couldn't tell.
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A's hit five easy routine ground balls, but get a run. Lead 1-0.
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No, but a pitcher should have free range to beat the living shit out of the manager for making him have to get five fucking routine groundball outs an inning.
Are you referring to the shift that has saved the Astros 20 runs this year to lead the league?
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Oh, were you annoyed by that? I couldn't tell.
It's just you're fighting for a playoff spot and you continue to fuck yourself in the ass.
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Are you referring to the shift that has saved the Astros 20 runs this year to lead the league?
No, I'm referring to the shift that has cost them at least three games that I know of, and cost them the lead in this one.
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A's get an out on a hard hit ball because got some inexplicable reason the second baseman wasn't playing in left field.
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No, I'm referring to the shift that has cost them at least three games that I know of, and cost them the lead in this one.
Oh, that shift.
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Kemp with a double off the pitcher's glove to plate the tying run.
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A's get an out on a hard hit ball because got some inexplicable reason the second baseman wasn't playing in left field.
That was Marwin hitting lefty. Had the A's been shifting it'd have been a routine grounder. (Kemp!) Much for that reason, my beef with the shift is mostly aesthetic. It is unbeautiful. Ditto the yawning acceptance of egregious quantities of strike-outs. Modern baseball is unbeautiful.
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That was Marwin hitting lefty. Had the A's been shifting it'd have been a routine grounder. (Kemp!) Much for that reason, my beef with the shift is mostly aesthetic. It is unbeautiful. Ditto the yawning acceptance of egregious quantities of strike-outs. Modern baseball is unbeautiful.
I have had the same thoughts about the shift. It doesn't look like Baseball. I wish they would outlaw it. Unless they do it will only increase.
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Devo is a weapon. So good.
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Keep raking, Jose.
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Jeez, Correa, did you forget you brought a bat to the plate?
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I have had the same thoughts about the shift. It doesn't look like Baseball. I wish they would outlaw it. Unless they do it will only increase.
I don't want it outlawed, I just want the Astros to stop using it on every fucking two-bit Punch and Judy hitter out there.
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I don't want it outlawed, I just want the Astros to stop using it on every fucking two-bit Punch and Judy hitter out there.
I thought it was interesting in that Cubs series they showed the stats on the shift and it said the Cubs use it the least in the MLB and the Astros use it the most by a huge number.
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Does he not pitch?
He is Devo.
D-E-V-O
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Astros should be celebrating a win and a no-hitter right now. But we get extra innings on the road. Fucking shift.
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Double by Kemp, Jake sacrifices him to 3B. Go ahead run at 3B with one out for top of the order
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Way to wake up Springer.
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Springer with a single past the drawn in infield...Astros grab a 2-1 lead in the 10th.
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Altuve continuing to roll over on everything. But...2-1 Astros. Giles will try to close it out.
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I thought it was interesting in that Cubs series they showed the stats on the shift and it said the Cubs use it the least in the MLB and the Astros use it the most by a huge number.
that does not jive with these numbers from Bill James. Cubs with the 2nd most Runs Saved in the NL with the shift. Somebody is wrong. http://www.crawfishboxes.com/2016/9/15/12924406/astros-pitchers-helped-by-elite-defense
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that does not jive with these numbers from Bill James. Cubs with the 2nd most Runs Saved in the NL with the shift. Somebody is wrong. http://www.crawfishboxes.com/2016/9/15/12924406/astros-pitchers-helped-by-elite-defense
They have 10 runs saved by the shift. That's not even the most on that list of two teams.
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And here we go...walk and a single...winning run on base.
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And another walk loads the bases with one out.
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Oh for Fuck's sakes, Giles.
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In the end it;s this offense that's killing us. There's no reason they should even be in this situation.
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Two outs.
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Ponche!!
Astros win 2-1 in 10
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High blood pressure medication anyone?
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Piece of cake.
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Well, that was a lot more nerve wracking than it needed to be... nice to win though.
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Tony Kemp comes in as a pinch hitter and ends up the player of the game. Game tying RBI double, then a lead off double and scored the winning run in the 10th.
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High blood pressure medication anyone?
Don't believe in it, I relieve hypertension by yelling at the TV.
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Tony Kemp comes in as a pinch hitter and ends up the player of the game. Game tying RBI double, then a lead off double and scored the winning run in the 10th.
Clutch Kemp!
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Tony Kemp comes in as a pinch hitter and ends up the player of the game. Game tying RBI double, then a lead off double and scored the winning run in the 10th.
That was a nice swing! I was thinking he had a three bagger off the bat.
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High blood pressure medication anyone?
Tonight was WL Weller's Reserve.
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That was Marwin hitting lefty. Had the A's been shifting it'd have been a routine grounder. (Kemp!) Much for that reason, my beef with the shift is mostly aesthetic. It is unbeautiful. Ditto the yawning acceptance of egregious quantities of strike-outs. Modern baseball is unbeautiful.
If you were a pitcher, you would not think strikeouts are unbeautiful.
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In the end it;s this offense that's killing us. There's no reason they should even be in this situation.
The batters are worn out from all the walking back and forth to shift in the field.
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If you were a pitcher, you would not think strikeouts are unbeautiful.
I'm sure you're right. But when nine Astros strike out every day, the K has lost some of its currency.
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I generally am in favor of the shift, but I am not a proponent of shifting against marginal hitters and then pitching to the weakness in the defense (e.g. throwing an outside fastball when the traditional 2B fielding area is unoccupied). In the early shift era when it primarily deployed against only the best hitters in the league, that was less of an issue because the calculus involved making a guy like Bonds consider changing his approach and taking a single through a hole instead of hitting the ball 500 ft. The Smolinski at bat last night was the shift at its worst. The Astros left a gaping hole on the right side and Musgrove worked away. If I'm a weak hitter facing a guy with a no hitter and the right side is open, I'm looking for anything on the outer half shoot through the right side.
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I am sure there are times when even I would use the shift, but being a slave to it, especially in a crucial DP situation, is crazy, imo.
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I am sure there are times when even I would use the shift, but being a slave to it, especially in a crucial DP situation, is crazy, imo.
I couldn't agree more. If I was pitching, I'd feel exposed and vulnerable about the shift.
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Just want to emphasize how good Musgrove looked last night. I realize we will see some inconsistency, but he might be our best starter now and a big piece for the future.
Kudos to Gattis also, his pitch calling is far different than Castro's, and it really seems to instill confidence in the pitcher and uncertainty in the hitter.
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If you were a pitcher, you would not think strikeouts are unbeautiful.
From a pitcher's perspective, other than perhaps an inning-ending double play, a strikeout is the most beautiful thing in baseball.
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I generally am in favor of the shift, but I am not a proponent of shifting against marginal hitters and then pitching to the weakness in the defense (e.g. throwing an outside fastball when the traditional 2B fielding area is unoccupied). In the early shift era when it primarily deployed against only the best hitters in the league, that was less of an issue because the calculus involved making a guy like Bonds consider changing his approach and taking a single through a hole instead of hitting the ball 500 ft. The Smolinski at bat last night was the shift at its worst. The Astros left a gaping hole on the right side and Musgrove worked away. If I'm a weak hitter facing a guy with a no hitter and the right side is open, I'm looking for anything on the outer half shoot through the right side.
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Asking a pitcher to "pitch to the shift" is completely assbackwards. You position fielders where you think you have the greatest chance of fielding a batted ball, based on the pitcher and hitter. You don't ask the pitcher to try to induce an outcome based on where you've pre-determined your fielders should be. Traditional infield positioning is not random. It's not drawn out of a hat with no reasoning behind it. It's designed to cover the most amount of the infield ground. Leaving 2/3rds of it uncovered and then asking your pitcher to alter *his* approach to accommodate it is simply asinine. I get that there are certain hitters who are far less likely to hit to a certain spot, no matter where you pitch them. With that, I'm OK moving fielders. But to slavishly adhere to a shift, no matter the hitter, no matter the pitcher, no matter the situation...well, you know how I feel.
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Kudos to Gattis also, his pitch calling is far different than Castro's, and it really seems to instill confidence in the pitcher and uncertainty in the hitter.
I haven't noticed any particular pitch-calling advantage for Gattis. Examples?
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I haven't noticed any particular pitch-calling advantage for Gattis. Examples?
my guess is Hinch calls pitches.
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Asking a pitcher to "pitch to the shift" is completely assbackwards. You position fielders where you think you have the greatest chance of fielding a batted ball, based on the pitcher and hitter. You don't ask the pitcher to try to induce an outcome based on where you've pre-determined your fielders should be. Traditional infield positioning is not random. It's not drawn out of a hat with no reasoning behind it. It's designed to cover the most amount of the infield ground. Leaving 2/3rds of it uncovered and then asking your pitcher to alter *his* approach to accommodate it is simply asinine. I get that there are certain hitters who are far less likely to hit to a certain spot, no matter where you pitch them. With that, I'm OK moving fielders. But to slavishly adhere to a shift, no matter the hitter, no matter the pitcher, no matter the situation...well, you know how I feel.
yes, Lord
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yes, Lord
Just trying to explain my position on the shift.
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Just trying to explain my position on the shift.
with which I agree 1000%
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I haven't noticed any particular pitch-calling advantage for Gattis. Examples?
IIRC, last night, first batter, lefty, 2-1 count. Musgrove on the mound, who normally competes with his FB command and his slider. I'm expecting a FB to get back in the count, maybe the slider if they want to go backwards. Instead, Gattis calls a change, which for Musgrove is a pitch he can command, but is easily inferior to his other offerings and is pretty squarable in a lot of situations. The hitter makes solid contact, but is off balance and flies to center.
Later in the first inning, he called the change against a righty, which IMO, is unexpected by Musgrove first time through the order to a righty. The hitter was also off-balance and fouled it, IIRC. The long bat to Vogt seemed to feature a lot of pitches I did not expect.
In general, Gattis seems unafraid to call pitches multiple times in a row. There have been a number of times with McHugh where he will call the hook many times in succession to a hitter who looks have trouble with it. Rarely does Castro go to it more than twice in a row.
IMO, Gattis calls a game like a hitter who is thinking "what pitch would I either not want to see at this moment, or not expect" whereas Castro is more conventional, based on the pitcher's strengths. In other words, I am not often surprised by a pitch Castro calls (he calls like most catchers I see), but am often surprised by what Gattis calls.
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Asking a pitcher to "pitch to the shift" is completely assbackwards. You position fielders where you think you have the greatest chance of fielding a batted ball, based on the pitcher and hitter. You don't ask the pitcher to try to induce an outcome based on where you've pre-determined your fielders should be. Traditional infield positioning is not random. It's not drawn out of a hat with no reasoning behind it. It's designed to cover the most amount of the infield ground. Leaving 2/3rds of it uncovered and then asking your pitcher to alter *his* approach to accommodate it is simply asinine. I get that there are certain hitters who are far less likely to hit to a certain spot, no matter where you pitch them. With that, I'm OK moving fielders. But to slavishly adhere to a shift, no matter the hitter, no matter the pitcher, no matter the situation...well, you know how I feel.
This. 1,000,000%. Let the pitcher pitch to his strengths, not the other way around.
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with which I agree 1000%
OK. Sounded like you were busting my chops. My bad.
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IIRC, last night, first batter, lefty, 2-1 count. Musgrove on the mound, who normally competes with his FB command and his slider. I'm expecting a FB to get back in the count, maybe the slider if they want to go backwards. Instead, Gattis calls a change, which for Musgrove is a pitch he can command, but is easily inferior to his other offerings and is pretty squarable in a lot of situations. The hitter makes solid contact, but is off balance and flies to center.
A changeup is exactly what I'd expect in that situation. The hitter is looking for a fastball, and if you can command a change, it's the no-brainer pitch to go with.
Later in the first inning, he called the change against a righty, which IMO, is unexpected by Musgrove first time through the order to a righty. The hitter was also off-balance and fouled it, IIRC. The long bat to Vogt seemed to feature a lot of pitches I did not expect.
I hadn't noticed any particular pattern with Musgrove, but then I've only seen him pitch a few times.
In general, Gattis seems unafraid to call pitches multiple times in a row. There have been a number of times with McHugh where he will call the hook many times in succession to a hitter who looks have trouble with it. Rarely does Castro go to it more than twice in a row.
I see this as a flaw, not a strength. Obviously if a hitter can't hit a certain pitch, you keep throwing it. But keep throwing the same pitch over and over is a bad habit. I think Gattis sometimes falls in love with the same pitch over and over.
IMO, Gattis calls a game like a hitter who is thinking "what pitch would I either not want to see at this moment, or not expect" whereas Castro is more conventional, based on the pitcher's strengths. In other words, I am not often surprised by a pitch Castro calls (he calls like most catchers I see), but am often surprised by what Gattis calls.
Fair enough. I guess I just don't see what you see.
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OK. Sounded like you were busting my chops. My bad.
not at all.
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IIRC, last night, first batter, lefty, 2-1 count. Musgrove on the mound, who normally competes with his FB command and his slider. I'm expecting a FB to get back in the count, maybe the slider if they want to go backwards. Instead, Gattis calls a change, which for Musgrove is a pitch he can command, but is easily inferior to his other offerings and is pretty squarable in a lot of situations. The hitter makes solid contact, but is off balance and flies to center.
Later in the first inning, he called the change against a righty, which IMO, is unexpected by Musgrove first time through the order to a righty. The hitter was also off-balance and fouled it, IIRC. The long bat to Vogt seemed to feature a lot of pitches I did not expect.
In general, Gattis seems unafraid to call pitches multiple times in a row. There have been a number of times with McHugh where he will call the hook many times in succession to a hitter who looks have trouble with it. Rarely does Castro go to it more than twice in a row.
IMO, Gattis calls a game like a hitter who is thinking "what pitch would I either not want to see at this moment, or not expect" whereas Castro is more conventional, based on the pitcher's strengths. In other words, I am not often surprised by a pitch Castro calls (he calls like most catchers I see), but am often surprised by what Gattis calls.
I find this all a very interesting take, but I couldn't help but laugh at that one part, envisioning Gattis calling for "slider two feet outside, in the dirt" on every single pitch of the game.
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I find this all a very interesting take, but I couldn't help but laugh at that one part, envisioning Gattis calling for "slider two feet outside, in the dirt" on every single pitch of the game.
I kind of had the same thought...Gattis...a pitch he wouldn't want to see? He's never met a pitch he didn't like.
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I get that there are certain hitters who are far less likely to hit to a certain spot, no matter where you pitch them. With that, I'm OK moving fielders. But to slavishly adhere to a shift, no matter the hitter, no matter the pitcher, no matter the situation...well, you know how I feel.
That is a lucid, intelligent, well thought out position.
It's also exactly what the Astros do.
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That is a lucid, intelligent, well thought out position.
It's also exactly what the Astros do.
Yes, I know. That's my problem with it.
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Yes, I know. That's my problem with it.
The first part is what that do. Or did I miss the part where they slavishly shift for every single hitter?
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The first part is what that do. Or did I miss the part where they slavishly shift for every single hitter?
You must have missed it. Every game. Geez, they shifted for fucking slap hitting Jake Smolinski last night and it almost cost them the game.