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General Discussion => Archive => Game Zone 2014 Archive => Topic started by: Mr. Happy on April 13, 2014, 10:47:03 am
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Your lineups for today's matinee:
Astros
CFDexter Fowler
2BJose Altuve
1BJesus Guzman
DHChris Carter
3BMatt Dominguez
RFL.J. Hoes
LFRobbie Grossman
CCarlos Corporan
SSJonathan Villar
Brett Oberholtzer (0-2, 4.91)
Rangizz
DH Mr. Platinum Sombrero Shin-Soo Choo
SS Elvis Andrus
RF Alex Rios
1B Prince Fielder
3B Kevin Kouzmanoff
LF Michael Choice
C Robinson Chirinos
CF Leonys Martin
2B Josh Wilson
TEX: Martin Perez (1-0, 4.50)
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It is raining here in north Texas today. I would think the game is in some doubt.
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It is raining here in north Texas today. I would think the game is in some doubt.
What kind of dumbasses would build a MLB stadium in Arlington and not have a retractable roof?
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It's not a MLB stadium, it's an oven.
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What kind of dumbasses would build a MLB stadium in Arlington and not have a retractable roof?
Exactly. I just watched the Bears beat the Toros in the Dome. They looked very cool. And dry.
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What kind of dumbasses would build a MLB stadium in Arlington and not have a retractable roof?
Those. Kind. Of. Dumbasses.
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The rain has stopped where I live but I'm 30 miles or more from Arlington so I can't vouch for what is going on there.
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Challenge!
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Zero to zero.
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Did Andrus just get run? They cut to commercial break as Black Amish was having to be separated from the HPU.
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Yep he's tossed. The little shit threw his bat like a fuckin' spoiled kid. That was the second dumbest thing Elvis did today.
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Still nothing to nothing after 3.5.
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I found this photo of Black Amish amongst the Global Life Stadium wilds in my twitter feed last night (https://twitter.com/AC0922/status/455181727372034048/photo/1).
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That's the second CS for the Astros in the last two innings.
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1-0 stRangers Top 9. That's the fourth straight game in which the Astros starting pitchers have gone seven frames.
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Boo. Rangers win 1-0.
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Astros can muster but five hits and still don't have a double-digit hit game yet. However, the hitters only notched two strikeouts, which is a bit of a moral victory.
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Astros hit in 31 innings, score in 2. Batters sabotage superior efforts by Feldman and Oberholzer.
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I'm glad to see the pitching go well. These last few games have been full of high-pressure situations and the team responded very well to them, at least in the field. Luck or progress?
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I'm glad to see the pitching go well. These last few games have been full of high-pressure situations and the team responded very well to them, at least in the field. Luck or progress?
I'm going with the latter.
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I'm very pleasanly impressed with Oberholtzer. I never expected he'd be more than a place-holder until the cavalry arrived but he appears to be able to compete at this level nicely.
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I'm very pleasanly impressed with Oberholtzer. I never expected he'd be more than a place-holder until the cavalry arrived but he appears to be able to compete at this level nicely.
I think that he's got good enough stuff to be a serviceable four.
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I think that he's got good enough stuff to be a serviceable four.
How do you compare him to Keuchel. If there was only room for one soft-tossing lefty?
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How do you compare him to Keuchel. If there was only room for one soft-tossing lefty?
I thought that soft-tossing lefties were just like Jello.
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Reuben has your recap (http://www.spikesnstars.com/2014/04/14/goose-eggs/).
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How do you compare him to Keuchel. If there was only room for one soft-tossing lefty?
In my opinion, their fastball command is pretty similar, but Oberholtzer's command of his off-speed pitches is better at this point. I think that Keuchel has to be almost perfect in command to stay out there, while Oberholtzer has some room for error because of the superiority of his off-speed pitches.
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I thought that soft-tossing lefties were just like Jello.
You already know my opinions about soft-tossing portsiders that are on a roster simply because they they from that side. It's affirmative action at its worst.
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You already know my opinions about soft-tossing portsiders that are on a roster simply because they they from that side. It's affirmative action at its worst.
Obie gets around 91 on his FB. Maybe that takes him out of the soft-tossing lefty category.
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Obie gets around 91 on his FB. Maybe that takes him out of the soft-tossing lefty category.
He's got average speed. He's good pretty good run on his two-seam fastball.
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How do you compare him to Keuchel. If there was only room for one soft-tossing lefty?
I think he's better than Keuchel.
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Even Chris Carter probably won’t hit .150 for the entire year.
True, he'll probably get to .223 like last season.
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I think he's better than Keuchel.
I do too.
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I think he's better than Keuchel.
+1 In my opinion, Keuchel's command has to be almost perfect in order to succeed, which is a lot to ask every fifth day.
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I think he's better than Keuchel.
FWIW, Obie was considered the better prospect.
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If he continues with this success, people will have to reassess the Bourn trade.
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If he continues with this success, people will have to reassess the Bourn trade.
And now Clemens is back up. Luhnow speaking of him yesterday said he was throwing about 80% strikes in OKC and said if he can continue to have control an command he can be "dominate" with his stuff. We'll see.
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If he continues with this success, people will have to reassess the Bourn trade.
I disagree. Even if Oberholtzer turns into an all-star it will still be a shit trade because of the perceived value of the prospects vs Bourn at the time. It was a horrible trade by Wade, especially after he completely fleeced the Phillies with Pence.
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Well, I wasn't implying that it would become a good trade, just not a completely shitty one. I disagree about perceived value. Ultimately, a prospect's perceived value is meaningless and all that matters is what they become. The easiest example is rankings right after the draft of Trout versus those drafted above him. Would you have held it against your GM if they acquired Trout in a trade versus acquiring any combo of players ranked above him at the time?
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If Oberholtzer turns out to be a solid #3 or 4, it will make the Bourn trade less painful; but it will not make me think Wade any less of a dumbass for making it. There is some validity to the "perceived value" idea; but the catch is that our (the unwashed masses, as Noe would say) perceived value might be very different from Wade's and other GMs' perceptions of those players at the time... in this particular instance, though, I doubt it. Oberholtzer was the lottery ticket with a limited ceiling, the secondary piece. Clemens was the centerpiece of the deal for Wade. (God knows what Schafer was supposed to be).
Furthermore, neither were guys Wade asked for. He asked for two of their "blue-chip" guys at the time, maybe Delgado and Teheran, or Vizcaino, I forget. Clemens and Obie were what the Braves counter-offered, and he accepted, notably without giving other teams a chance to make a better offer, as an "anatomy of a trade" article later that year revealed.
It would be one thing if Oberholtzer was some "under the radar" guy that they'd long had their eye on, and insisted on him being part of any deal. But they didn't; I doubt they thought any higher of him than the Braves did. Bottom line is, they gave up a year and a half of the best defensive CF in baseball, and one of the best leadoff men, for a couple of mediocre prospects and Jordan Schafer. If one of those prospects outshines his pedigree, then it is to Oberholtzer's credit (and maybe the Astros' Player Development staff's), not Wade's.
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Well, I do certainly give credit to Obie and the developmental staff, but the other stuff is pure conjecture. I find it implausible that Wade just let the Braves throw a couple of names at him that he accepted without having a positive opinion on their future. I bet there was a scout somewhere in the org who liked Obie and suggested they ask for him. Even if Obie was a second choice (which might be very common in trades for all we, the unwashed masses, know), I suspect they asked for him over some other guys that were available. Anyways, I cringe at the idea that getting perceived value is somehow better than getting actual value. I always feel better cashing a ticket versus the empty satisfaction that someone approved of my bet.
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If what you're trading for is prospects, how do you measure except by what they become? It's like your buying draft picks, and don't you always measure draft picks by how they pan out?
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If what you're trading for is prospects, how do you measure except by what they become? It's like your buying draft picks, and don't you always measure draft picks by how they pan out?
Precisely. We gave away a lot for Schafer, Oberholtzer and Clemens. Thus far, the deal hasn't panned out for us.
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Precisely. We gave away a lot for Schafer, Oberholtzer and Clemens. Thus far, the deal hasn't panned out for us.
What? One or maybe two young quality pitchers for someone who would have been a free agent a year ago is "not panning out"? This is best case scenario, imo, even if it may have been blind luck.
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Anyways, I cringe at the idea that getting perceived value is somehow better than getting actual value. I always feel better cashing a ticket versus the empty satisfaction that someone approved of my bet.
No one ever said that perceived value was better than actual value. However, perceived value was all Wade had at the time. Why would you ever make a perceived shitty deal and hope that you luck out long term? Even if Obie was the guy they wanted all along perception was such that a good GM could have gotten him and a much better crew than Abreu, Clemens, and Schafer.
It's like Dombrowski defending the Fister trade. Robbie Ray was the guy he really wanted but considering the trade was widely panned as the worst in baseball this winter he likely could have gotten Ray, Krol, and Walters or some other prospect with value instead of Lombardozzi (who he had to trade to get a 37 year old Alex Gonzalez).
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No one ever said that perceived value was better than actual value. However, perceived value was all Wade had at the time. Why would you ever make a perceived shitty deal and hope that you luck out long term? Even if Obie was the guy they wanted all along perception was such that a good GM could have gotten him and a much better crew than Abreu, Clemens, and Schafer.
It's like Dombrowski defending the Fister trade. Robbie Ray was the guy he really wanted but considering the trade was widely panned as the worst in baseball this winter he likely could have gotten Ray, Krol, and Walters or some other prospect with value instead of Lombardozzi (who he had to trade to get a 37 year old Alex Gonzalez).
Maybe all he really wanted was a Fister.
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What? One or maybe two young quality pitchers for someone who would have been a free agent a year ago is "not panning out"? This is best case scenario, imo, even if it may have been blind luck.
I meant that it hasn't yet panned out in on the field performance. Potential and a dollar gets you a cup of coffee. With the benefit of hindsight, I like the trade so far because of the potential of those two pitchers, even if it was blind luck as you say.
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I think basically it comes down to the difference between making a smart trade - ie. one that has a high probability of yielding a positive return - and making a trade that turns out well. Obviously, you'd much rather have the 2nd outcome than the first, on every single trade, but it doesn't mean Ed Wade is more likely to make good trades in the future. A good result doesn't necessarily mean he was a good talent evaluator or negotiator, just as a bad result from the Pence trade wouldn't necessarily mean he screwed that one up.
Here's an example - at the time of the Bourn trade, Tommy Hanson was a 24-year-old SP for the Braves. He had pitched 460 innings in the Majors with a career 3.28 ERA and 431 Ks vs. only 393 Hits allowed. He looked for all the world like a young Ace in the making. If Wade had somehow convinced the Braves to give him Hanson for Bourn, he would have been hailed as a genius. It would have been a very smart trade.
But a week later, Hanson gave up 4 homers en route to a drubbing by the Mets, and he didn't pitch again that year. He's had a series of injuries, lost his good fastball, put up a 4.76 ERA and 1.48 WHIP and is with his 3rd team in 3 years. That would have been a very poor outcome for a Bourn trade. But it wouldn't mean Wade was an idiot for making the trade in the first place, because (presumably) nobody could have known what was about to happen to Hanson.