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General Discussion => Talk Zone => Topic started by: hostros7 on December 03, 2013, 04:20:32 pm
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@MarkBermanFox26: Astros announce they traded Jordan Lyles and Brandon Barnes to the Rockies for outfielder Dexter Fowler and a player to be named later.
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Not that it's a bad trade, but I'm surprised they traded for a guy who'll be a free agent after the season.
Edit: N/M:
Brian McTaggart: Fowler signed a 2-year deal with Colorado that covers 2013-14 and will be under Astros control & eligible for his final year of arb. in '15.
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I'm more interested in the PTBNL.
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That answers the CF question for one more year. But as someone who had Fowler on his fantacrap team, I hope he can stay healthy.
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That answers the CF question for one more year. But as someone who had Fowler on his fantacrap team, I hope he can stay healthy.
Are they not planning on playing Springer in center?
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That answers the CF question for one more year. But as someone who had Fowler on his fantacrap team, I hope he can stay healthy.
You think Fowler will keep Springer from starting?
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You think Fowler will keep Springer from starting?
Not necessarily. Might move Springer or Fowler to a corner. I don't think anything but an injury will stop Springer from being at MMP on Opening Day.
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You think Fowler will keep Springer from starting?
He can play right field with no problem.
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Career at Coors: .298/.395/.485
Career not at Coors: .241/.333/.361
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That answers the CF question for one more year. But as someone who had Fowler on his fantacrap team, I hope he can stay healthy.
What kind of injuries did he have?
Only having Fowler for two years kind of dampens my enthusiasm a bit, but it is nice that they targeted a multi-dimensional player.
Lyles was one of my favorites. I hope he does well, even though it will be for one of the team's hated NL rivals.
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I'm not sure how many dimensions he has.
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For what it's worth, Rockies fans are pissed. (http://www.purplerow.com/2013/12/3/5172174/dexter-fowler-trade-rockies-astros-jordan-lyles-brandon-barnes)
The injuries were nagging things like a broken thumb or something as I recall.
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Career at Coors: .298/.395/.485
Career not at Coors: .241/.333/.361
Seems like lots of Rocks hitters do poorly on the road... Something about getting into bad habits at home because curves don't break as much at Coors? Hopefully getting out of there won't ruin him.
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I had hopes for Jordan Lyles. Fowler's okay.
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Career at Coors: .298/.395/.485
Career not at Coors: .241/.333/.361
Many stat nerds on twitter are saying that that's deceptive represenation of post-Coors careers, but I dunno.
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I'm not sure how many dimensions he has.
My recollection of him is a plus defender with some speed, and a serviceable bat with some pop. He certainly isn't some stiff that can barely play first.
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He's immediately a #2-5 hitter in this lineup.
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He's immediately a #2-5 hitter in this lineup.
I'd guess leadoff.
Fowler
Altuve
Castro
Carter
Springer
Wallace?
Dominguez
Grossman
Villar
Presumably/hopefully Springer will ultimately hit 3 or 4, but likely not at the beginning of the year.
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I had hopes for Jordan Lyles. Fowler's okay.
So did I, but he probably needed a change of scenery, although I don't know that Colorado is where he should be.
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For what it's worth, Rockies fans are pissed. (http://www.purplerow.com/2013/12/3/5172174/dexter-fowler-trade-rockies-astros-jordan-lyles-brandon-barnes)
Lyles is going to be good. It may be five years from now, but he'll be good. That of course means that he's best suited for a team that can demonstrate patience rather than a team on the fast track for success like the Astros.
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Lyles is going to be good. It may be five years from now, but he'll be good. That of course means that he's best suited for a team that can demonstrate patience rather than a team on the fast track for success like the Astros.
You mean a team that's rebuilding and not in "win now" mode?
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Lyles is going to be good. It may be five years from now, but he'll be good. That of course means that he's best suited for a team that can demonstrate patience rather than a team on the fast track for success like the Astros.
I think that he'll benefit from a change of scenery, although pitching half of his games at Coors Field won't be any fun.
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You mean a team that's rebuilding and not in "win now" mode?
The Astros traded a center fielder for a center fielder when they have a world-beating center fielder ready to play. Then they threw in a 23 year old starting pitcher with three seasons of MLB experience.
The Astros must really not like Jordan Lyles at all.
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My recollection of him is a plus defender with some speed, and a serviceable bat with some pop. He certainly isn't some stiff that can barely play first.
I haven't heard that he's a plus-defender in center field. I understand that he's average at best. He's a break-even base-stealer, stealing about twice as often as caught. Away from Coors field, he's averaged 26 doubles, 9 triples and 6 home runs per 162 games with a .361 slugging percentage, which is pretty limited pop.
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I'd guess leadoff.
Fowler
Altuve
Castro
Carter
Springer
Wallace?
Dominguez
Grossman
Villar
Presumably/hopefully Springer will ultimately hit 3 or 4, but likely not at the beginning of the year.
Fowler has as good a shot as anyone else of leading this team in OBP.
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Seems like lots of Rocks hitters do poorly on the road... Something about getting into bad habits at home because curves don't break as much at Coors? Hopefully getting out of there won't ruin him.
There's the possibility that they get into bad habits at home, but there's also the possibility that their road numbers are representative of how good (or not good) the hitters actually are, and that their home numbers at Coors obscure that.
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McTaggart: #Astros GM Jeff Luhnow on pursuing pitching: "I’m confident we’ll have another deal or two done by this time next week.”
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The Astros traded a center fielder for a center fielder when they have a world-beating center fielder ready to play. Then they threw in a 23 year old starting pitcher with three seasons of MLB experience.
The Astros must really not like Jordan Lyles at all.
Somehow I think Barnes is the "throw-in" much moreso than Lyles. I'm sad to see both go, but it looks like a pretty good deal to me, all in all.
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Plus opens up another 40-man spot
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The Astros traded a center fielder...
And speaking of Mr. Barnes, best wishes to him in Colorado and am sorry to see him go.
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McTaggart: #Astros GM Jeff Luhnow on pursuing pitching: "I’m confident we’ll have another deal or two done by this time next week.”
I seem to remember that Fowler has been in the rumor mill with several teams pursuing. Lunhow may just traded for him to flip him to someone else for prospects.
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I seem to remember that Fowler has been in the rumor mill with several teams pursuing. Lunhow may just traded for him to flip him to someone else for prospects.
I guess that's possible, but the Astros really do need an outfielder.
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Lyles is going to be good. It may be five years from now, but he'll be good. That of course means that he's best suited for a team that can demonstrate patience rather than a team on the fast track for success like the Astros.
A guy that doesn't strike people out and gives up lots of doubles and long balls in royally screwed by going to Colorado.
I don't see him ever panning out.
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I seem to remember that Fowler has been in the rumor mill with several teams pursuing. Lunhow may just traded for him to flip him to someone else for prospects.
Hard to imagine a package of Barnes and Lyles would be the package Colorado chose if there were several options for them. Or maybe they wanted to reduce payroll?
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I'm very excited about this trade and will be even more excited if the PTBNL is a quality prospect, which I expect he will be. COL received a young and cheap SP. I can't imagine there's many teams willing to part with the same.
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A guy that doesn't strike people out and gives up lots of doubles and long balls in royally screwed by going to Colorado.
I don't see him ever panning out.
Sadly, I think that you are right. He throws too many hittable strikes.
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This one is a real ho-humer. Fowler replaces Barnes in the fungible outfield corps. Lyles had great promise but turned into a Robertson - Redding hybrid.
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Hard to imagine a package of Barnes and Lyles would be the package Colorado chose if there were several options for them. Or maybe they wanted to reduce payroll?
He fell out of favor with the Colorado management toward the end of last season. Too many injuries. They are saying the trade market for him last year was much better than this year.
Rockies wanted to free up payroll to sign Morneau.
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He fell out of favor with the Colorado management toward the end of last season. Too many injuries. They are saying the trade market for him last year was much better than this year.
Rockies wanted to free up payroll to sign Morneau.
Thanks Clark. Good to have boots on the ground.
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This one is a real ho-humer. Fowler replaces Barnes in the fungible outfield corps. Lyles had great promise but turned into a Robertson - Redding hybrid.
I think it's far from a ho-humer.
Offensively, Fowler is much better than Barnes, even if he hits close to his away numbers. And if he ends up hitting better than his away numbers he'll be a huge improvement. Luhnow said he wanted to upgrade the offense in the outfield. This does that. Barnes had no job anyways if Fowler is on the team so this is basically Fowler for Lyles and a prospect.
Fowler belongs in a mlb lineup. Barnes does not.
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I would have preferred the extra expense of a free agent rather than trading a young pitcher, but Luhnow isn't taking my calls still.
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I would have preferred the extra expense of a free agent rather than trading a young pitcher, but Luhnow isn't taking my calls still.
Who? From what I could tell you were going to pay through the nose for anyone decent and have to lose the first pick of the second round (in a draft that is deeper than last two years)
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Who? From what I could tell you were going to pay through the nose for anyone decent and have to lose the first pick of the second round (in a draft that is deeper than last two years)
7 years, $153 million seems like a bargain for an often injured outfielder.
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Who? From what I could tell you were going to pay through the nose for anyone decent and have to lose the first pick of the second round (in a draft that is deeper than last two years)
Plus we may get another young pitcher or position player (PTBNL) back in the deal. I agree that it's tough to trade away young starting pitching but that's exactly why I think the PTBNL might end up being a pretty darn good prospect. Besides, isn't pitching a strength as far as the Astros minor league system goes?
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I think it's far from a ho-humer.
Offensively, Fowler is much better than Barnes, even if he hits close to his away numbers. And if he ends up hitting better than his away numbers he'll be a huge improvement. Luhnow said he wanted to upgrade the offense in the outfield. This does that. Barnes had no job anyways if Fowler is on the team so this is basically Fowler for Lyles and a prospect.
Fowler belongs in a mlb lineup. Barnes does not.
I agree.
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Plus we may get another young pitcher or position player (PTBNL) back in the deal. I agree that it's tough to trade away young starting pitching but that's exactly why I think the PTBNL might end up being a pretty darn good prospect. Besides, isn't pitching a strength as far as the Astros minor league system goes?
Lyles had three years to impress but failed to do so. He actually showed signs of regression toward the latter part of last season. I think that we're better off with Fowler and a prospect. Brandon Barnes might not even make the Rox roster.
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I would have preferred the extra expense of a free agent rather than trading a young pitcher, but Luhnow isn't taking my calls still.
Losing Lyles isn't big for the Astros. At that level they still have: Clemens, Cosart, Peacock, Wojo, in addition to possibly starting Harrell or Cisnero. Too there's also Alex White on the mend. Those are the RHP and just the guys in the majors or AAA.
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Plus we may get another young pitcher or position player (PTBNL) back in the deal. I agree that it's tough to trade away young starting pitching but that's exactly why I think the PTBNL might end up being a pretty darn good prospect. Besides, isn't pitching a strength as far as the Astros minor league system goes?
I expect little from the player to be named. Yes, they have more talent top to bottom on the mound than any other position.
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Losing Lyles isn't big for the Astros. At that level they still have: Clemens, Cosart, Peacock, Wojo, in addition to possibly starting Harrell or Cisnero. Too there's also Alex White on the mend. Those are the RHP and just the guys in the majors or AAA.
Call me optomistic but I think Cosart doesn't belong in that list.
ETA
In other words, if Cosart was in the deal instead of Lyles it's an awful trade for the Astros
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Interesting trade…..barnes is a “gamer” and made one highlight reel catch after another last year..but he was a career minor leaguer ( a 27 year old rookie last year) and I don’t think he will ever hit well enough to make it…we’ll find out soon enough, because if you can’t hit in mile high Colorado you can’t hit anywhere…..Lyles has a higher ceiling and the poise of a veteran pitcher…I really liked his “presence” on the mound, and had hoped to see him start this season in the rotation and give us some more innings to evaluate him, but apparently Lunhow has seen enough of him and we have a pretty long list of these young woulda coulda shoulda type pitchers so I guess they’re thinking what’s one less….on the flip side going to the Rockie Mountains may be curtains for Lyles because he could get buried for awhile there if he doesn’t adapt quickly…Fowler is a real find, good power and good On-Base percentage he can really go and get it in the outfield as well …with super stud Springer coming up we’ll have a couple of guys that cover some real territory in the spacious Minute Maid outfield ..there was some grumbling that Fowler won’t play with pain and asks out a little more than he should…we’ll see if that continues!
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won’t play with pain and asks out a little more than he should…we’ll see if that continues!
I find it much more annoying when a player tries unsuccessfully to play through the pain.
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I find it much more annoying when a player tries unsuccessfully to play through the pain.
I agree. And that is far more common than the reverse.
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Lyles had three years to impress but failed to do so. He actually showed signs of regression toward the latter part of last season. I think that we're better off with Fowler and a prospect. Brandon Barnes might not even make the Rox roster.
How old is Lyles? I forget.
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I expect little from the player to be named. Yes, they have more talent top to bottom on the mound than any other position.
Same here, how can anyone expect a PTBNL to be a top prospect? I expect little and hope Luhnow has Gerry Hunsicker's old pocket watch to lull the Rockie's GM to sleep and surprise all of us. Right now, Fowler is the "get" in this deal and I expect nothing else in the future but a hope and a prayer player.
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Same here, how can anyone expect a PTBNL to be a top prospect? I expect little and hope Luhnow has Gerry Hunsicker's old pocket watch to lull the Rockie's GM to sleep and surprise all of us. Right now, Fowler is the "get" in this deal and I expect nothing else in the future but a hope and a prayer player.
If the perception is Fowler is a bit better than Lyles and somehow Barnes tips that scale to Colorado then the PTBNL to even things out can't be much. I'm expecting a youngish high-A or AA minor league reliever.
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How old is Lyles? I forget.
Right. You know damn well how old he is.
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Right. You know damn well how old he is.
No, I don't. Is he 21? I can go look it up though. BRB.
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No, I don't. Is he 21? I can go look it up though. BRB.
Okay, he's 23 years old. He's hardly done (IMHO) and could be still learning how to pitch. But if what the trade is all about is "giving up something to get something", then it's a fair deal. You rarely have a "you lose - we win" type of deal any more. The "win - win" deals are more about what teams work out. I need a pitcher, young, who has upside and a little bit of major league experience... you need a bat and a good defensive player. Can we talk?
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Okay, he's 23 years old. He's hardly done (IMHO) and could be still learning how to pitch. But if what the trade is all about is "giving up something to get something", then it's a fair deal. You rarely have a "you lose - we win" type of deal any more. The "win - win" deals are more about what teams work out. I need a pitcher, young, who has upside and a little bit of major league experience... you need a bat and a good defensive player. Can we talk?
He has plenty of time and could figure it out. Or not. I think that time ran out on him in Houston. The way he looked at the end of last season was not encouraging at all.
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If the perception is Fowler is a bit better than Lyles and somehow Barnes tips that scale to Colorado then the PTBNL to even things out can't be much. I'm expecting a youngish high-A or AA minor league reliever.
I don't doubt that. Fowler is 27 and ready for a free agent type of contract after next season. Lyles is 23 but has struggled to find his niche as a major league arm. I think the deal is a push because neither one stands out as heads above the other, there are reasons why one is attractive to each team that traded for them. Adding Barnes to the deal is interesting, but as much as I like Barnes, he's an everyman major leaguer... meaning you can find a handful of Brandon Barnes ready to play for your team. I don't expect much like you and if they get a reliever that is young-ish, I say that is a good thing and call it a day.
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He has plenty of time and could figure it out. Or not. I think that time ran out on him in Houston. The way he looked at the end of last season was not encouraging at all.
I think Lyles is his own worse enemy. He needs to re-evaluate what it means to pitch as a major league starter. I would have loved to get him to switch to closer... his delivery style, the ability to throw cheese at 94-96mph consistently in one to two inning stints and with the development of a changeup (not Trevor Hoffman level, but just good enough) would have made him a deadly asset to have.
But now he's in Colorado and he needs to work on his starter game to improve and be a 7 inning guy consistently. His inability to go more than five (heck, more than four) innings, has reliever spelled all over it for his future.
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The fact that he is 23 and inexpensive is why Colorado was willing to give up Fowler for him. The fact that after 377 innings pitched he has yet to succeed at the MLB level is why Houston is willing to trade him for Fowler.
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Like the trade and hope it works out for all involved. Really hoping I might actually be able to watch this F'ing team develope in Austin again soon, so I can have an opinion about it. Seems the positives are finally coming. Fowler, Appel, Correa, Springer, next 1-1, Comcast lawsuit. Like.
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In fairness, Lyles did show he can pitch at this level, in spurts. He had a great run about mid-season of 4-5 games where he looked like he was starting to "get it". Then back to his water level. I read somewhere the Astros may have thought him expendable because he didn't have many options left.
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I think Lyles is his own worse enemy. He needs to re-evaluate what it means to pitch as a major league starter. I would have loved to get him to switch to closer... his delivery style, the ability to throw cheese at 94-96mph consistently in one to two inning stints and with the development of a changeup (not Trevor Hoffman level, but just good enough) would have made him a deadly asset to have.
But now he's in Colorado and he needs to work on his starter game to improve and be a 7 inning guy consistently. His inability to go more than five (heck, more than four) innings, has reliever spelled all over it for his future.
That's along the same lines of what I thought, and wrote, when I recapped a couple of his disastrous starts late in the season. Would've been interesting to see what he could as a short reliever.
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That's along the same lines of what I thought, and wrote, when I recapped a couple of his disastrous starts late in the season. Would've been interesting to see what he could as a short reliever.
I was thinking similarly. I remember more moments when he seemed to lose it. But, it could be that the season just turned into one big loss.
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Like the trade and hope it works out for all involved. Really hoping I might actually be able to watch this F'ing team develope in Austin again soon, so I can have an opinion about it. Seems the positives are finally coming. Fowler, Appel, Correa, Springer, next 1-1, Comcast lawsuit. Like.
I enjoyed watching Josh Hader pitch last year too. He needs some seasoning but he seems to know how to pitch and not just throw. I never got to see Lance McCullers pitch last year but have heard great things about him too. We'll have to see who starts the season down here in the Midwest League. There's no doubt there is a lot of exciting talent down here.
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Another interesting take on this deal:
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/astros-rockies-bet-on-different-kinds-of-potential/#more-142067 (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/astros-rockies-bet-on-different-kinds-of-potential/#more-142067)
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I think the idea that if he proves he can hit away from Coors and not be a liability in the field he would be dealt for more than the Astros gave up is spot on.
As a team, the Astros don't appear to be ready to sign $9 MM / Year players as a matter of course. I could easily see Luhnow flipping Fowler at or near the trade deadline in '14.
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I think the idea that if he proves he can hit away from Coors and not be a liability in the field he would be dealt for more than the Astros gave up is spot on.
As a team, the Astros don't appear to be ready to sign $9 MM / Year players as a matter of course. I could easily see Luhnow flipping Fowler at or near the trade deadline in '14.
I disagree. I don't see them being ready to sign $20MM+/year players, but Fowler's making $7.35M this year, not bad if you get league-average production at CF. That's not to say they couldn't flip him, but I doubt that is the intention, not with Crane repeatedly bringing up payroll jumping ~$30-$40M for next season. I doubt he plans on spiking payroll that much only to strip it back down a few months into the season. I see the plan having moved into the phase where they augment the young guys coming up with mid-range veterans. They're past looking to Ankiel types to bounce back while hitting in the middle of the lineup.
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Apparently, the hated Mariners signed Canó to 10 year, $240M deal (https://twitter.com/Enrique_Rojas1/status/408988592942223360).
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These contract valuations absolutely blow my mind. $24MM a year? For decline years? At 2B? I can't process this.
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Apparently, the hated Mariners signed Canó to 10 year, $240M deal (https://twitter.com/Enrique_Rojas1/status/408988592942223360).
The rich get richer. We need some Mandela-style wealth redistribution in the AL West.
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These contract valuations absolutely blow my mind. $24MM a year? For decline years? At 2B? I can't process this.
It's fucking Monopoly money.
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These contract valuations absolutely blow my mind. $24MM a year? For decline years? At 2B? I can't process this.
The Los Angeles Angels of Seattle.
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The Los Angeles Angels of Seattle.
Brand new $100M/year RSN.
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Brand new $100M/year RSN.
I thought those things weren't economically viable.
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Yea, where can we get one of those?
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Out of the 134 players that had a minimum of 300 plate appearances last year only 10 were age 36 and over. (http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/minage/36/league/nl/sort/WARBR/minpa/300)
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Out of the 134 players that had a minimum of 300 plate appearances last year only 10 were age 36 and over. (http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/minage/36/league/nl/sort/WARBR/minpa/300)
that they admit to.
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Out of the 134 players that had a minimum of 300 plate appearances last year only 10 were age 36 and over. (http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/minage/36/league/nl/sort/WARBR/minpa/300)
I had no idea Marlon Byrd had such a good year.
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These contract valuations absolutely blow my mind. $24MM a year? For decline years? At 2B? I can't process this.
Full no-trade, too. They're going to regret this, and probably sooner rather than later.