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General Discussion => Beer and Queso => Topic started by: Uncle Charlie on June 21, 2013, 03:08:53 pm

Title: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: Uncle Charlie on June 21, 2013, 03:08:53 pm
Seems the star TE is in some serious doodoo.  Being potentially connected to a murder while destroying your security system and phone in the following hours is, um, not good.  Is he the fall guy or Ray Lewis?

http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2013/06/report-arrest-warrant-issued-for-patriots-hernandez/ (http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2013/06/report-arrest-warrant-issued-for-patriots-hernandez/)
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: Limey on June 26, 2013, 11:02:02 am
Hernandez was arrested this morning, and promptly released by the Patriots.
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: MusicMan on June 26, 2013, 11:21:02 am
Given his release, I think it's reasonable to expect he's not just getting hit with obstruction.
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: Limey on June 26, 2013, 11:26:53 am
Given his release, I think it's reasonable to expect he's not just getting hit with obstruction.

Picked up and handcuffed at home suggests the same.  If it wasn't a serious charge, he'd be allowed to turn himself in.
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: MusicMan on June 26, 2013, 11:32:16 am
Picked up and handcuffed at home suggests the same.  If it wasn't a serious charge, he'd be allowed to turn himself in.

Oh, I think that was more of a giant "fuck you" to his attorneys for putting everyone on blast yesterday.
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: Bench on June 26, 2013, 01:26:19 pm
Given his release, I think it's reasonable to expect he's not just getting hit with obstruction.

Second degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder. 
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: subnuclear on June 26, 2013, 01:29:03 pm
Second degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder. 

How is that different from first degree murder?
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: Bench on June 26, 2013, 01:33:15 pm
How is that different from first degree murder?

Probably some difference in intent/premeditation. 
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: Limey on June 26, 2013, 01:47:28 pm
How is that different from first degree murder?

Celebrity discount.
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: subnuclear on June 26, 2013, 01:48:56 pm
Probably some difference in intent/premeditation. 

Wouldn't the conspiracy part be premeditation?
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: Bench on June 26, 2013, 01:57:03 pm
Wouldn't the conspiracy part be premeditation?

Didn't he kill one guy and shoot another guy in the face who survived (allegedly)?  I haven't been following this story very closely.  Too much other big happenings in the country the last three days. 
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: Limey on June 26, 2013, 02:04:29 pm
Wouldn't the conspiracy part be premeditation?

Conspiracy can be after the fact, I think.  I.e. the destruction of evidence and disposal of the body.
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: Limey on June 26, 2013, 02:06:27 pm
Didn't he kill one guy and shoot another guy in the face who survived (allegedly)?  I haven't been following this story very closely.  Too much other big happenings in the country the last three days.  

He's being sued for shooting a guy in the eye, which reminds me of Broadway Danny Rose:

Quote
Danny Rose: [asks about her ex-husband] What'd you do, you divorced him, or got a separation, or what?
Tina Vitale: Nah, some guy shot him in the eyes.
Danny Rose: Really? He's blind?
Tina Vitale: Dead.
Danny Rose: Dead. Of course, 'cause the bullets go right through.

Apparently not always.
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: Bench on June 26, 2013, 02:17:27 pm
Hernandez arrest bodes well for Tim Tebow (http://i.imgur.com/GPOrARu.png)
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: subnuclear on June 26, 2013, 02:31:56 pm
Conspiracy can be after the fact, I think.  I.e. the destruction of evidence and disposal of the body.

Ok, that makes more sense if that's the case.
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: Mr. Happy on June 26, 2013, 02:48:49 pm
Celebrity discount.

SFN
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: NeilT on June 26, 2013, 03:00:14 pm
How is that different from first degree murder?

I'm not speaking from any special knowledge, but I'd expect that there's an element of planning in 1st degree that's not there in 2d, but there's more nastiness and intent to carry out a deadly act than in manslaughter.  I wouldn't expect a 2d degree charge to allow the death penalty, if it's a death penalty jurisdiction.
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on June 26, 2013, 04:25:16 pm
I think that busting up a cell phone only temporarily helps one. I believe the call records can be subpoenaed. But the fact that he felt a need to destroy his phone and surveillance equipment is pretty damning. He ain't no good.
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: Limey on June 26, 2013, 04:34:22 pm
I think that busting up a cell phone only temporarily helps one. I believe the call records can be subpoenaed. But the fact that he felt a need to destroy his phone and surveillance equipment is pretty damning. He ain't no good.

Damning, but makes it a lot harder to prove what happened.  He has the same lawyer as Ray Lewis, and things worked out for Ray because no one said anything and all the prosecutors had was a whole helping of obstruction of justice.

See a pattern emerging...?
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: GreatBagwellsBeard on June 26, 2013, 05:01:58 pm
Pure gold (https://twitter.com/PFTCommenter/statuses/349982074347851777) from the always funny (and rarely coherent) @PFTCommenter:

Quote from: '@ProFootballTalk'
Great point from CSNNE analyst:  Will Hernandez and his fiancee get married quickly so that she can't be compelled to testify against him?

Quote from: 'PFTCommenter'
.@ProFootballTalk if they do it points to motive that Hernandez was playing FMK w/ his gf, her sister,and Lloyd that nite,,what a competitor
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: HudsonHawk on June 26, 2013, 06:16:06 pm
Second degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder. 

ESPN reports it's first degree murder, which means possible life without parole, if convicted.
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: MusicMan on June 26, 2013, 08:49:39 pm
ESPN reports it's first degree murder, which means possible life without parole, if convicted.

OK, because I didn't quite understand how driving a guy out to an industrial park, during which time he makes sure to text the names of those he's with because he thinks he's about to die, and then putting 3 in his back and 2 in his head, was not premeditated.
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: austro on June 26, 2013, 08:56:03 pm
... during which time he makes sure to text the names of those he's with because he thinks he's about to die ...

I hadn't heard that part.

ETA: And is Hernandez really so stupid that he'd let the guy keep his phone? Never mind, don't answer that.
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: MusicMan on June 26, 2013, 09:02:46 pm
Apparently there's some question as to whether it will meet the "dying words" hearsay exemption, but I'm no lawyer.  My thought is that an electronic transmission is evidence, not testimony.
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: austro on June 26, 2013, 09:06:23 pm
My thought is that an electronic transmission is evidence, not testimony.

If it's good enough for the NSA, it ought to be good enough for the courts.
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: Limey on June 27, 2013, 07:39:48 am
If it's good enough for the NSA, it ought to be good enough for the courts.

SFATOWL
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: MusicMan on June 27, 2013, 09:15:54 am
If it's good enough for the NSA, it ought to be good enough for the courts.

Maybe somebody there can remind me what my WordPress password is.
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: Bench on June 27, 2013, 09:35:59 am
Apparently there's some question as to whether it will meet the "dying words" hearsay exemption, but I'm no lawyer.  My thought is that an electronic transmission is evidence, not testimony.

Hearsay includes any statement from an out of court declarant, regardless of written or spoken. 
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: Bench on June 27, 2013, 09:36:18 am
OK, because I didn't quite understand how driving a guy out to an industrial park, during which time he makes sure to text the names of those he's with because he thinks he's about to die, and then putting 3 in his back and 2 in his head, was not premeditated.

Yeah, that seems pretty premeditated to me. 
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: MusicMan on June 27, 2013, 09:44:03 am
Hernandez now being investigated for 2012 double murder. (http://www.myfoxboston.com/story/22702430/2013/06/27/source-hernandez-investigated-in-boston-double-killing)
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: Limey on June 27, 2013, 10:21:00 am
Hernandez now being investigated for 2012 double murder. (http://www.myfoxboston.com/story/22702430/2013/06/27/source-hernandez-investigated-in-boston-double-killing)

Next they'll tell us it was actually Hernandez who bombed the Boston Marathon.
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: JimR on June 27, 2013, 10:30:39 am
holy shit. is all of this gang related?
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: MusicMan on June 27, 2013, 10:42:43 am
holy shit. is all of this gang related?

Hernandez dropped from 1st to 4th round because of "character issues", including reported gang connections.

The murder victim was dating the sister of Aaron's fiancee.  It's not hard to surmise that the victim did something to his girlfriend that Hernandez deemed worthy of execution.
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: Andyzipp on June 27, 2013, 10:51:43 am
Hernandez dropped from 1st to 4th round because of "character issues", including reported gang connections.

The murder victim was dating the sister of Aaron's fiancee.  It's not hard to surmise that the victim did something to his girlfriend that Hernandez deemed worthy of execution.

And planned for for at least 3 days.

If the case is close to what has been reported, his only hope is an incompetent jury.
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: MusicMan on June 27, 2013, 10:54:05 am
If the case is close to what has been reported, his only hope is an incompetent jury.

So, the OJ parallels continue.
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: HudsonHawk on June 27, 2013, 10:58:20 am
So, the OJ parallels continue.

OJ jury wasn't incompetent, just uniformed.  The Casey Anthony jury was incompetent.
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: MusicMan on June 27, 2013, 11:02:43 am
OJ jury wasn't incompetent, just uniformed.  The Casey Anthony jury was incompetent.

That's fair.  The OJ prosecutors and judge were incompetent.
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: Ty in Tampa on June 27, 2013, 11:17:24 am
I just bothered to read the timeline. Not a smart guy.
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: Limey on June 27, 2013, 11:25:12 am
That's fair.  The OJ prosecutors and judge were incompetent.

Bingo.
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: MusicMan on June 27, 2013, 11:36:20 am
The murder victim was dating the sister of Aaron's fiancee.  It's not hard to surmise that the victim did something to his girlfriend that Hernandez deemed worthy of execution.

Boston Globe saying my speculation may be off base:

The officials said investigators now believe that Odin Lloyd, the man Hernandez is charged with killing in a North Attleboro industrial park June 17, may have had information about Hernandez’s role in the double slaying.

“The motive might have been that the victim knew [Hernandez] might have been involved,” one of the officials said. (http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/06/27/former-patriots-player-aaron-hernandez-probed-two-more-murders-law-enforcement-officials-say/6PSjR68RBpguwcxmlXe2oM/story.html)
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: Limey on June 27, 2013, 11:38:42 am
Boston Globe saying my speculation may be off base:

The officials said investigators now believe that Odin Lloyd, the man Hernandez is charged with killing in a North Attleboro industrial park June 17, may have had information about Hernandez’s role in the double slaying.

“The motive might have been that the victim knew [Hernandez] might have been involved,” one of the officials said. (http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/06/27/former-patriots-player-aaron-hernandez-probed-two-more-murders-law-enforcement-officials-say/6PSjR68RBpguwcxmlXe2oM/story.html)

The Bleacherap timeline says that Hernandez was complaining that he couldn't trust anyone any more.  This seems to feed into the above narrative.
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: Limey on June 27, 2013, 11:47:25 am
And now the cops have nabbed one of Hernandez' buddies (http://news.yahoo.com/connecticut-arrests-man-case-ex-nfl-player-facing-150026469.html), who was on the lam.
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: OregonStrosFan on June 27, 2013, 02:07:19 pm
Hernandez dropped from 1st to 4th round because of "character issues", including reported gang connections.

The murder victim was dating the sister of Aaron's fiancee.  It's not hard to surmise that the victim did something to his girlfriend that Hernandez deemed worthy of execution.

If I understand this correctly, what you are telling me is that the Cowboys won't take much of a salary cap hit when Jerry Jones signs him?!?
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: austro on June 27, 2013, 08:39:33 pm
The Bleacherap timeline says that Hernandez was complaining that he couldn't trust anyone any more.

I imagine that eventually sets in after you kill someone. Or somethree.
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: Limey on June 28, 2013, 07:09:29 am
I imagine that eventually sets in after you kill someone. Or somethree.

To date...
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: Limey on July 03, 2013, 03:15:12 pm
Hernandez had a "secret" apartment (http://news.yahoo.com/cops-evidence-found-secret-hernandez-apartment-173857921.html), at which he seems to have stashed the clothes he was wearing on the night of the murder.  Oh, and it also contained a shit-ton of ammo.  Cops think the clothes will help them put him at the scene.
Title: Re: Is he a PATSy or a Raven?
Post by: OregonStrosFan on July 03, 2013, 04:36:21 pm
Hernandez had a "secret" apartment (http://news.yahoo.com/cops-evidence-found-secret-hernandez-apartment-173857921.html), at which he seems to have stashed the clothes he was wearing on the night of the murder.  Oh, and it also contained a shit-ton of ammo.  Cops think the clothes will help them put him at the scene.

Also in that article:

And over the weekend, a man who is reportedly married to Hernandez's cousin was killed in a car crash in Connecticut. Thaddeus Singleton III, 33, of Bristol, was driving the car when it went airborne early Sunday and crashed into the wall of the Farmington Country Club.