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General Discussion => Talk Zone => Topic started by: Houston on March 10, 2010, 09:23:31 am
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http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/mlb/news/story?id=4981701
Is he a Hall of Famer?
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http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/mlb/news/story?id=4981701
Is he a Hall of Famer?
I don't think so.
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coulda been an Astro, but he did not want to play LF.
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http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/mlb/news/story?id=4981701
Is he a Hall of Famer?
Hell no.
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http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/mlb/news/story?id=4981701
Is he a Hall of Famer?
Nice batting average, but not much else. Even if his numbers were better, the unstable name and the annoying batting glove routine would be minuses.
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Nomar's lower on my list than Dale Murphy.
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Hell no.
I don't think he will be, either, but I'm sure he'll get some votes. He batted .313 with a .521 slugging average for his career with 90+ RBI seven times and two batting titles. I'll bet you can't name 10 shortshops in the history of the game better than him offensively.
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I don't think he will be, either, but I'm sure he'll get some votes. He batted .313 with a .521 slugging average for his career with 90+ RBI seven times and two batting titles. I'll bet you can't name 10 shortshops in the history of the game better than him offensively.
Longevity comes into question with that though.
He played full-time short stop for 6 seasons, injuries robbing him of another 2 seasons. After 2004 through last season, he made 57 game appearances at short.
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I don't think he will be, either, but I'm sure he'll get some votes. He batted .313 with a .521 slugging average for his career with 90+ RBI seven times and two batting titles. I'll bet you can't name 10 shortshops in the history of the game better than him offensively.
I think he'll get some votes, but at the end of they day, he's going to be compared to Jeter and ARod. He simply doesn't stack up well with those guys.
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Nomar's lower on my list than Dale Murphy.
I don't see how you could even begin to compare No-mah with Dale Murphy in regard to Hall of Fame chances. Then again, I think Murphy should be in
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I think he'll get some votes, but at the end of they day, he's going to be compared to Jeter and ARod. He simply doesn't stack up well with those guys.
NoMah couldn't carry Alan Trammell's jock.
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NoMah couldn't carry Alan Trammell's jock.
So, who's on your list of the best offensive SS of all time?
I'm genuinely asking because I'm curious, not because I'm being rhetorical or provocative.
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So, who's on your list of the best offensive SS of all time?
I'm genuinely asking because I'm curious, not because I'm being rhetorical or provocative.
1. Honus Wagner
2. A-Rod
3. Cal Ripken
4. Derek Jeter (pending his career tail)
5. Alan Trammell
6. Barry Larkin
Somewhere 7-12: NoMah. Again, he was only a SS for 6 full seasons .
Dead last: Mark Belanger
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1. Honus Wagner
2. A-Rod
3. Cal Ripken
4. Derek Jeter (pending his career tail)
5. Alan Trammell
6. Barry Larkin
Somewhere 7-12: NoMah. Again, he was only a SS for 6 full seasons .
Dead last: Mark Belanger
I'd put Larkin ahead of Trammell, but otherwise I agree with your list. Robin Yount, Luke Appling and Arky Vaughan would complete my list.
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Dead last: Mark Belanger
Mario wept.
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Who knows with HOF voting -- the fact that Tim Raines is not in yet is a joke. Lifetime .294 hitter, .385 OBP, .425 slugging over 23 seasons. 2605 hits. 808 steals (against only 146 caught stealing). The guy was one of the best leadoff men ever and gets 30% of the vote.
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Who knows with HOF voting -- the fact that Tim Raines is not in yet is a joke. Lifetime .294 hitter, .385 OBP, .425 slugging over 23 seasons. 2605 hits. 808 steals (against only 146 caught stealing). The guy was one of the best leadoff men ever and gets 30% of the vote.
Chicks dig the long ball.
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Chicks dig the long ball.
I think in his case it's more due to the fact that he spent his prime in Montreal. Raines should be in, and it's a no-brainer to me.
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Dead last: Mark Belanger
I think I'd put Ray Oyler dead last. Or Tom Matchick.
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I think I'd put Ray Oyler dead last. Or Tom Matchick.
Agreed.
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I think I'd put Ray Oyler dead last. Or Tom Matchick.
Belanger was completely inept at the plate for 15 years. That's some extra credit there.
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Belanger was completely inept at the plate for 15 years. That's some extra credit there.
That's true, but Oyler whiffed to the tune of .135 and .165 over 217 games in '68 and '69. Belanger hit .287 (!) in 1969.
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.280 for his career.
Slugging!
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Hey! What about me?
Out cutting hay,
Roger Metzger
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Metzger hit so many triples he's an offensive weapon in this discussion.
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1. Honus Wagner
2. A-Rod
3. Cal Ripken
4. Derek Jeter (pending his career tail)
5. Alan Trammell
6. Barry Larkin
Somewhere 7-12: NoMah. Again, he was only a SS for 6 full seasons .
Banks played SS for at least 8 seasons. Won two MVPs I believe.
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Banks played SS for at least 8 seasons. Won two MVPs I believe.
I knew I'd leave someone out. Thanks.
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I think I'd put Ray Oyler dead last. Or Tom Matchick.
Not in a league with those guys, but Bobby Wine was pretty bad for a long time. As was the immortal Enzo Hernandez. And Dal Maxvill was sort of the NL version of Belanger.
The 1968 Tigers won the pennant with the troika of Oyler (.135/.213/.186), Matchick (.203/.248/.286), and Dick Tracewski (.156/.239/.236) manning shortstop for them. Obviously a case of a manager valuing his players' defense so much he overlooked the offensive shortcomings.
Well, maybe not entirely overlooked. Remember, those three were so punchless Mayo Smith turned his Gold Glove-caliber centerfielder into a SS for the World Series. (What Smith really did was replace Oychickski's bats in the order with Al Kaline's. The Tigers basically had four starting outfielders that year - Kaline, Mickey Stanley, Jim Northrup, and Willie Horton - and in those pre-DH days, moving Stanley in to SS was the only way Smith could get all four guys in the lineup at the same time. You could say it worked, I guess. Also, legend has it that Smith - a good card player and convival drinking buddy of sportswriters never noted in his time for being particularly tricky as a manager - pulled the Stanley at SS idea out of his ass just prior to the beginning of the Series. But a quick check of the game logs at retrosheet shows Smith started experimenting with Stanley at SS as early as late August, and he started him at short exclusively the last week of the regular season. Starting Stanley at short in the World Series was still a gutsy move, but not an entirely un-premeditated one.)
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I loved that season. My favorite player, Al Kaline, played in the Series and I finally got to see him play on TV, back when you could maybe see your favorite team once a year on Game of the Week. Back then, everywhere you went, people had radios tuned to the game or a tv set on with the Series on. I was in grade school and they had TVs in the classroom with the game on. There's a lot about that time that I miss.
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I loved that season. My favorite player, Al Kaline, played in the Series and I finally got to see him play on TV, back when you could maybe see your favorite team once a year on Game of the Week. Back then, everywhere you went, people had radios tuned to the game or a tv set on with the Series on. I was in grade school and they had TVs in the classroom with the game on. There's a lot about that time that I miss.
I was pulling for the Cards. I was a NL guy even before the DH. The Cards were never the same after Jose Feliciano sang the national anthem.
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So, who's on your list of the best offensive SS of all time?
I'm genuinely asking because I'm curious, not because I'm being rhetorical or provocative.
Most offensive SS of all time? Walt Fucking Weiss.
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Most offensive SS of all time? Walt Fucking Weiss.
I hate you!
I really hate you!
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Most offensive SS of all time? Walt Fucking Weiss.
You seem to be in a foul mood these days.
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The 1968 Tigers won the pennant with the troika of Oyler (.135/.213/.186), Matchick (.203/.248/.286), and Dick Tracewski (.156/.239/.236) manning shortstop for them. Obviously a case of a manager valuing his players' defense so much he overlooked the offensive shortcomings.
1968 was also the year that Carl Yastrzemski won the batting title with a cool .301 average, by far the lowest by any league leader in history.
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And Tiant's 1.61 ERA was HALF A RUN MORE than Gibson's.
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I loved that season. My favorite player, Al Kaline, played in the Series and I finally got to see him play on TV, back when you could maybe see your favorite team once a year on Game of the Week. Back then, everywhere you went, people had radios tuned to the game or a tv set on with the Series on. I was in grade school and they had TVs in the classroom with the game on. There's a lot about that time that I miss.
I grew up watching Kaline in CF (sometimes RF) at Briggs Stadium with my dad helping me appreciate the defensive side of the game. 1968 was magical.
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I loved that season. My favorite player, Al Kaline, played in the Series and I finally got to see him play on TV, back when you could maybe see your favorite team once a year on Game of the Week. Back then, everywhere you went, people had radios tuned to the game or a tv set on with the Series on. I was in grade school and they had TVs in the classroom with the game on. There's a lot about that time that I miss.
Al Kaline was one of the few AL players that I followed closely. Class all the way.
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My favorite player on that teaam was The Justiceburg Flash, the great Norm Cash.
Running a close second was Don "Bird Thou Never" Wert.
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1. Honus Wagner
2. A-Rod
3. Cal Ripken
4. Derek Jeter (pending his career tail)
5. Alan Trammell
6. Barry Larkin
Somewhere 7-12: NoMah. Again, he was only a SS for 6 full seasons .
Dead last: Mark Belanger
Donde esta Davey Concepcion?
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Donde esta Davey Concepcion?
Mr. Morgan, please give Noe his computer back.
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1. Honus Wagner
2. A-Rod
3. Cal Ripken
4. Derek Jeter (pending his career tail)
5. Alan Trammell
6. Barry Larkin
Somewhere 7-12: NoMah. Again, he was only a SS for 6 full seasons .
Dead last: Mark Belanger
Ahem (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/vaughar01.shtml).
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Ahem (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/vaughar01.shtml).
Good lord: only 70 GIDP in 16 YEARS?!?! Derek Bell thinks he wasn't even trying.
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Ahem (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/vaughar01.shtml).
I didn't forget you. I listed Arky on my Top 10, though I did forget Ernie Banks.
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My favorite player on that teaam was The Justiceburg Flash, the great Norm Cash.
Running a close second was Don "Bird Thou Never" Wert.
Yes. Cash was why manager Smith couldn't just move Stanley or Kaline (who both played some 1B) to the infield to make room. Kind of a great unsung player Cash was. Made for Tiger Stadium, but actually his home/road splits for his career aren't that far apart.
Wert was terrific defensively, but didn't exactly bolster the offense for the left side of the infield (.200/.258/.299, for your third baseman.) The Tigers could get away with that because in addition to four OFs who could hit (Stanley less than the others), they also had a slugging C and 2B. In fact, my favorite player on that team was Dick McAuliffe. I imitated his extreme batting stance stance in wiffle ball games for years.
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Mr. Morgan, please give Noe his computer back.
I'd put Davey ahead of Larkin and possibly ahead of Trammel. I'm not looking at any statiscal evidence to back this up, but the man was both a great glove with tremendous range and also a big, strong build (he was Ripken and A-Rod before there was a Ripken or A-Rod in terms of size). He could hit too and in the era of the huge ballparks and 10-16 homeruns a year makes you a superstar, he was one of the best in the whole MLB.
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I'd put Davey ahead of Larkin and possibly ahead of Trammel. I'm not looking at any statiscal evidence to back this up, but the man was both a great glove with tremendous range and also a big, strong build (he was Ripken and A-Rod before there was a Ripken or A-Rod in terms of size). He could hit too and in the era of the huge ballparks and 10-16 homeruns a year makes you a superstar, he was one of the best in the whole MLB.
He hit double digits in homers only twice in 19 years with a .322 OBP and .357 slugging.
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Another pretty bad hitting shortstop I just remembered was Johnnie Lemaster. He sucked. The home fans in SF booed him so relentlessly, for awhile he wore a jersey with "Boo" sewed onto the back it, instead of "Lemaster".
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IIRC, Larkin was pretty elite offensively for a while.
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I'd put Davey ahead of Larkin and possibly ahead of Trammel. I'm not looking at any statiscal evidence to back this up, but the man was both a great glove with tremendous range and also a big, strong build (he was Ripken and A-Rod before there was a Ripken or A-Rod in terms of size). He could hit too and in the era of the huge ballparks and 10-16 homeruns a year makes you a superstar, he was one of the best in the whole MLB.
The question was offensive SS's. If D is included, it's a very different list.
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Yes. Cash was why manager Smith couldn't just move Stanley or Kaline (who both played some 1B) to the infield to make room. Kind of a great unsung player Cash was. Made for Tiger Stadium, but actually his home/road splits for his career aren't that far apart.
Wert was terrific defensively, but didn't exactly bolster the offense for the left side of the infield (.200/.258/.299, for your third baseman.) The Tigers could get away with that because in addition to four OFs who could hit (Stanley less than the others), they also had a slugging C and 2B. In fact, my favorite player on that team was Dick McAuliffe. I imitated his extreme batting stance stance in wiffle ball games for years.
Trying to hit with McAuliffe's stance was a popular batting practice activity for us, too.
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The question was offensive SS's. If D is included, it's a very different list.
Because with some shortstops, their defensive will make up for their lack of offense.
Right?
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Because with some shortstops, their defensive will make up for their lack of offense.
Right?
You are a bad person.
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Because with some shortstops, their defensive will make up for their lack of offense.
Right?
Signed, Derek Jeter
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Trying to hit with McAuliffe's stance was a popular batting practice activity for us, too.
I always wondered how he could hit at all from that stance.
I've heard it said that Craig Counsell's stance is a close comp for McAuliffe's; but, not really. Counsell holds his bat way high, like McAuliffe did, but IIRC Counsell's bat is straight up, perpindicular to the ground. As you'll recall, McAuliffe's was almost horizontal, it looked like it was behind his head. Plus, Counsell stands almost parallel to the plate, while McAuliffe had an extreme open stance. He was basically facing the pitcher at the beginning of it. The only guy in recent memory who came anything close to being that open was the guy who played 3B for the Blue Jays, Orioles and others a few years back - Tony Batista, I think.
But he didn't hold his hands high like McAuliffe. McAuliffe's stance was unique.
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The only guy in recent memory who came anything close to being that open was the guy who played 3B for the Blue Jays, Orioles and others a few years back - Tony Batista, I think.
How about late-career Brian Downing?
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On the subject of the '68 Tiger team, Bill Freehan might be the best catcher not in the Hall of Fame.
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I always wondered how he could hit at all from that stance.
I've heard it said that Craig Counsell's stance is a close comp for McAuliffe's; but, not really. Counsell holds his bat way high, like McAuliffe did, but IIRC Counsell's bat is straight up, perpindicular to the ground. As you'll recall, McAuliffe's was almost horizontal, it looked like it was behind his head. Plus, Counsell stands almost parallel to the plate, while McAuliffe had an extreme open stance. He was basically facing the pitcher at the beginning of it. The only guy in recent memory who came anything close to being that open was the guy who played 3B for the Blue Jays, Orioles and others a few years back - Tony Batista, I think.
But he didn't hold his hands high like McAuliffe. McAuliffe's stance was unique.
Not to cross streams threads here, but didn't Ensberg do a Batista impression for a while along the way?
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Not to cross streams threads here,
You're endangering us... you're endangering our client, the nice lady who paid us in advance, before she turned into a dog...
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Not to cross streams threads here, but didn't Ensberg do a Batista [insert any random MLBer] impression for a while along the way?
FIFY
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The question was offensive SS's. If D is included, it's a very different list.
Oh, sorry, my bad.