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General Discussion => Talk Zone => Topic started by: pots on March 31, 2009, 03:40:23 pm

Title: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: pots on March 31, 2009, 03:40:23 pm
According to Cincy Enquirer

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3af7029dde-ec50-42bf-b1e1-5f962d524c12&plckCommentSortOrder=TimeStampAscending&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

My favorite comment:
"IndianaGreg wrote:
Keppinger was beginning to be well liked by Cincy fans... good thing we got rid of him now... so we don't get too attached..."
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: AtascAstro on March 31, 2009, 03:43:11 pm
Adding Link (http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=blog07)....not much else though.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: pots on March 31, 2009, 03:46:41 pm
I like the fact he's struck out a total of 3 times in 139 at bats against lefties.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Bench on March 31, 2009, 03:54:02 pm
I like the fact he's struck out a total of 3 times in 139 at bats against lefties.

He's always been able to put the bat on the ball.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: austro on March 31, 2009, 03:55:15 pm
PTBNL means it's somebody not currently on the 40-man?
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: SaltyParker on March 31, 2009, 03:59:38 pm
He's always been able to put the bat on the ball.
Yeah, he doesn't strike out much against anyone.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: moriartp on March 31, 2009, 04:00:23 pm
So begins the Jeoff platoon.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: pots on March 31, 2009, 04:06:35 pm
chron picked it up:
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/6352049.html

Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: SaltyParker on March 31, 2009, 04:08:57 pm
So begins the Jeoff platoon.
It seems like this would be a nice chance to give Tejada some time at third.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: pots on March 31, 2009, 04:11:14 pm
I read limited range at short on a few websites.  He could spell Tejada there for sure, but probably not move him over.   
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: GreatBagwellsBeard on March 31, 2009, 04:12:33 pm
Footer's got it, too. (http://houston.astros.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090331&content_id=4096570&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou)

ETA: She also mentions that Maysonet is down to Round Rock.  I guess that makes Smith the utility guy.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: MusicMan on March 31, 2009, 04:13:24 pm
Footer's article notes that Maysonet has been sent to Round Rock.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: chuck on March 31, 2009, 04:14:21 pm
Why the hell would the Reds trade a useful player to a division rival for, as far as I can tell, not much of anything?
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: MusicMan on March 31, 2009, 04:15:06 pm
Why the hell would the Reds trade a useful player to a division rival for, as far as I can tell, not much of anything?

Because he's out of options and didn't have a spot on their roster?
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Noe on March 31, 2009, 04:15:51 pm
PTBNL means it's somebody not currently on the 40-man?

I believe so, but only if traded within the same league (which is the case here).  If it were a different league (re: American league) then the restriction is not applicable.  Or so I remember.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: BudGirl on March 31, 2009, 04:16:30 pm
I guess that makes Smith the utility guy.

Yeah!!!
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Andyzipp on March 31, 2009, 04:16:32 pm
Because he's out of options and didn't have a spot on their roster?

And they think Rosales/Gonzalez is going to be enough to man the position.

It's a low risk, high reward kind of move.  Prior to his injury last summer, he was a pretty productive player.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Noe on March 31, 2009, 04:17:08 pm
Why the hell would the Reds trade a useful player to a division rival for, as far as I can tell, not much of anything?

They have better useful players?
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Arky Vaughan on March 31, 2009, 04:17:37 pm
Career:

vs. Left .351/.403/.515 (300 PA)
vs. Right .258/.309/.336 (668 PA)
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Noe on March 31, 2009, 04:18:05 pm
Yeah!!!

?

And so begins the gnashing of teeth over the 25th man! (j/k)
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Ty in Tampa on March 31, 2009, 04:18:36 pm
?

She finds him...hot.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: MusicMan on March 31, 2009, 04:18:40 pm
What's the hitting equivalent of a LOOGY?
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: chuck on March 31, 2009, 04:18:42 pm
Because he's out of options and didn't have a spot on their roster?

Who else do they have as a utility guy other than Janish?
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Mr. Happy on March 31, 2009, 04:18:52 pm
They have better useful players?

Noe, how can they have better useful players?
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: MusicMan on March 31, 2009, 04:19:59 pm
She finds him...hot.

Well, let's face it.  When the utility guy shows up, "bow-chick-a-bow-wow" music usually starts playing.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Andyzipp on March 31, 2009, 04:20:11 pm
Who else do they have as a utility guy other than Janish?

Rosales, if Gonzalez is healthy.  Which, by making the deal they did, I assume they think he is.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: MusicMan on March 31, 2009, 04:20:14 pm
Noe, how can they have better useful players?

Thanks, Gerry.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Gizzmonic on March 31, 2009, 04:26:00 pm
Well, let's face it.  When the utility guy shows up, "bow-chick-a-bow-wow" music usually starts playing.

Don't be fatuous, MM.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Bench on March 31, 2009, 04:35:23 pm
It seems like this would be a nice chance to give Tejada some time at third.

Keppinger is definately not a shortstop, IMO. 
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: MusicMan on March 31, 2009, 04:38:21 pm
Justice is on the radio claiming that the Astros' game notes originally reported the deal as Keppinger for Drew Sutton.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Andyzipp on March 31, 2009, 04:45:08 pm
Justice is on the radio claiming that the Astros' game notes originally reported the deal as Keppinger for Drew Sutton.

No way...
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Noe on March 31, 2009, 04:48:53 pm
Noe, how can they have better useful players?

Younger, cheaper, better, more talented, faster, better gloves... what exactly are you looking for to quantify "better"?
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: MusicMan on March 31, 2009, 04:49:14 pm
He says that they were quickly withdrawn and "corrected", but that he is very worried that Sutton is the PTBNL.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Noe on March 31, 2009, 04:49:44 pm
No way...

IF so, Ed Wade once again overpays.  At least it wasn't Sutton and Bogesevic!  *sigh*
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: MusicMan on March 31, 2009, 04:51:36 pm
Footer coming up on 1560.  We'll see what she has to say.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: pravata on March 31, 2009, 04:54:11 pm
By Alyson Footer / MLB.com
KISSIMMEE, Fla. -- The Houston Astros have acquired infielder Jeff Keppinger from the Cincinnati Reds for a player to be named later or cash considerations.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Mr. Happy on March 31, 2009, 04:54:50 pm
Younger, cheaper, better, more talented, faster, better gloves... what exactly are you looking for to quantify "better"?

I was being facetious. Of course, they can have better players.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: pravata on March 31, 2009, 04:59:35 pm
Footer's got it, too. (http://houston.astros.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090331&content_id=4096570&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou)

ETA: She also mentions that Maysonet is down to Round Rock.  I guess that makes Smith the utility guy.

Smith has more gloves than Maysonet. They have Smith, Keppinger, and Blum backing up at short and 2nd.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Reuben on March 31, 2009, 05:02:42 pm
By Alyson Footer / MLB.com
KISSIMMEE, Fla. -- The Houston Astros have acquired infielder Jeff Keppinger from the Cincinnati Reds for a player to be named later or cash considerations.
who gets to choose?
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Andyzipp on March 31, 2009, 05:05:16 pm
who gets to choose?

IIRC, The Astros will provide a list of 3 to 5 names, if the Reds don't want any of them, they can choose the cash.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: GreatBagwellsBeard on March 31, 2009, 05:06:35 pm
who gets to choose?

Or do they take what's in THE BOX! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KezvwARhBIc)
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: DVauthrin on March 31, 2009, 05:11:45 pm
Or do they take what's in THE BOX! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KezvwARhBIc)

This reminds me of:


Peter chooses the BOX on Family Guy
 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQA_-TXVDTU)
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: chuck on March 31, 2009, 05:14:30 pm
I just spent the last 15 minutes or so listening to 1560. Let me ask - isn't sitting in traffic on the Katy Freeway bad enough? Why must people torture themselves further? Even with Footer on that shit is a total embarrassment. It makes Wheel of Fortune look like an intellectual feast.

Edit - Believe it or not I wrote the above prior to looking at GBB's link.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: pravata on March 31, 2009, 05:17:06 pm
Keppinger familiar with backing up Matsui
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/13/sports/baseball/13mets.html
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: MusicMan on March 31, 2009, 05:19:41 pm
I just spent the last 15 minutes or so listening to 1560. Let me ask - isn't sitting in traffic on the Katy Freeway bad enough? Why must people torture themselves further? Even with Footer on that shit is a total embarrassment. It makes Wheel of Fortune look like an intellectual feast.

Edit - Believe it or not I wrote the above prior to looking at GBB's link.

I missed it.  Did she confirm/deny Justice's perspective on this?
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Reuben on March 31, 2009, 05:27:03 pm
Or do they take what's in THE BOX! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KezvwARhBIc)
Let's hope we can say, "you so stupid, Jocketty!!!"
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: VirtualBob on March 31, 2009, 05:28:09 pm
I read limited range at short on a few websites.  He could spell Tejada there for sure, but probably not move him over.   
He has played about 2/3 of his MLB innings at SS, so somebody in baseball thinks he can play the position.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Filo on March 31, 2009, 06:12:42 pm
For what its worth the guy rakes against Cubs pitching and has had an usual amount of at-bats against them as opposed to even other teams other NL Central teams..

29gms 105abs 36hits 11rbi 11/6 bb/k ratio .343avg .420obp
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: HudsonHawk on March 31, 2009, 06:41:22 pm
I believe so, but only if traded within the same league (which is the case here).  If it were a different league (re: American league) then the restriction is not applicable.  Or so I remember.

Actually, I believe it's a requirement that the PTBNL must change leagues, which means if it's two NL or two AL teams, the player cannot be on the 40-man.  Sorta the same thing you said only different.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Russe on March 31, 2009, 06:51:35 pm
So then it's not Sutton, at least not at this point in time.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: jonbloozy on March 31, 2009, 06:57:18 pm
He says that they were quickly withdrawn and "corrected", but that he is very worried that Sutton is the PTBNL.

Still says Sutton.  Link (http://presspass.mlb.com/pp_viewer.asp?d=43895)
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: chuck on March 31, 2009, 07:40:50 pm
I missed it.  Did she confirm/deny Justice's perspective on this?

She said that she didn't think it was Sutton but if it was Sutton she'd be fine with that. They mainly talked about Firehouse Subs and Las Vegas odds. It is a fucking unfathomable cesspool of idiocy.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: pots on March 31, 2009, 10:39:01 pm
He has played about 2/3 of his MLB innings at SS, so somebody in baseball thinks he can play the position.

Yes but in order to move Tejada to 3rd you'd have to be better than he is.  Otherwise they are not going to screw around with Tejada.  So limited range, especially after the shattered knee cap would not translate into moving Tejada to 3rd.  FWIW, I've read Kippenger has has average range at 3rd. 

Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Andyzipp on March 31, 2009, 10:44:50 pm
She said that she didn't think it was Sutton but if it was Sutton she'd be fine with that. They mainly talked about Firehouse Subs and Las Vegas odds. It is a fucking unfathomable cesspool of idiocy.

Were you not prepared for this based on watching the Headhunter videos?
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: pravata on March 31, 2009, 11:16:50 pm
“Maybe the opportunity is better for me over there,” (Astros) Keppinger said. “Maybe I'll get the chance to play. Looking around here, (Reds) it didn't look like I was going to play too much.”
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/sports/6352049.html

A guy with problems with his butt, this one over here who is a DWI away from being deported and another dude who can’t spell Jeff. 
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Noe on March 31, 2009, 11:19:11 pm
Yes but in order to move Tejada to 3rd you'd have to be better than he is.  Otherwise they are not going to screw around with Tejada.  So limited range, especially after the shattered knee cap would not translate into moving Tejada to 3rd.  FWIW, I've read Kippenger has has average range at 3rd. 



Range at third?  Whaaa?
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: chuck on April 01, 2009, 01:15:59 am
Were you not prepared for this based on watching the Headhunter videos?

The what?
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: pots on April 01, 2009, 06:35:37 am
Range at third?  Whaaa?

Yes I am aware range is much less importance at 3rd, hence the FWIW
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: MikeyBoy on April 01, 2009, 06:57:24 am
Range at third?  Whaaa?

Beat me to it.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Ty in Tampa on April 01, 2009, 07:21:49 am
The what?

Psst...chuck. There's a front page. (http://www.spikesnstars.com/)
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: JimR on April 01, 2009, 07:35:15 am
Yes but in order to move Tejada to 3rd you'd have to be better than he is.  Otherwise they are not going to screw around with Tejada.  So limited range, especially after the shattered knee cap would not translate into moving Tejada to 3rd.  FWIW, I've read Kippenger has has average range at 3rd. 



there is no such thing as "range at 3rd."
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Andyzipp on April 01, 2009, 08:19:11 am
there is no such thing as "range at 3rd."

Range at 3rd base = That space between you and the line.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: pots on April 01, 2009, 08:27:49 am
Fine, Keppinger has average reaction time at third. Better?
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Taras Bulba on April 01, 2009, 08:33:30 am
Fine, Keppinger has average reaction time at third. Better?

Means that Keppinger never ever steps on the field without a cup.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Ebby Calvin on April 01, 2009, 08:55:05 am
Range at 3rd base = That space between you and the line.

This reminded me of a MLBTradeRumors email I got this morning.  From their Yankmee's preview:

Quote
The Yankees were the second-to-worst defensive team in the AL last year according to The Fielding Bible II.  They could gain 40 runs on defense by employing Teixeira and Nady over Giambi and Abreu.

Aside from their blatant disregard to the elephant in the room (who plays SS), I'm positive this number of runs was pulled out of someone's arse.  I recognize the importance of employing a defensively-sound RF (for which I'm not sure Nady qualifies), but is Teixiera that much better than Giambi?  How much does 1B really matter?
And, yes, I watched the late innings of the DR loss to the Netherlands.  Just curious.
Title: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: geezerdonk on April 01, 2009, 08:58:13 am
Trading for Keppinger is only half of the process. Now it has to be determined if Cooper will actually play him against left handers.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: VirtualBob on April 01, 2009, 09:00:29 am
Range at third?  Whaaa?
Kind of puts the rest of his comments into perspective.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: VirtualBob on April 01, 2009, 09:01:35 am
Fine, Keppinger has average reaction time at third. Better?
See also Lansford, Carney.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: VirtualBob on April 01, 2009, 09:02:28 am
Means that Keppinger never ever steps on the field without a cup.

So ... Geoff & Jeff ... Two 3Bmen, One cup?
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Noe on April 01, 2009, 10:45:52 am
Fine, Keppinger has average reaction time at third. Better?

That is different.  Reaction (cat-like reaction) is critical at third, hence why most think that catchers make for good third baseman.  What you want out of your third baseman is the following: Good reaction, good glove, excellent footwork, strong and accurate arm.  Not in that order, but you check off those items so you can evaluate how good of a defensive third baseman you have.

If the litmus test would be found in a player, I can't think of anyone better than Scott Rolen in his prime.  Dude had tremendous accuracy, a very strong arm, great reaction time and a gold standard for glove work around the bag.  You rarely saw Rolen in a bad position when he got set to throw, his ability to go from a catch to a throw position quickly was awe inspiring.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: JimR on April 01, 2009, 10:51:51 am
That is different.  Reaction (cat-like reaction) is critical at third, hence why most think that catchers make for good third baseman.  What you want out of your third baseman is the following: Good reaction, good glove, excellent footwork, strong and accurate arm.  Not in that order, but you check off those items so you can evaluate how good of a defensive third baseman you have.

If the litmus test would be found in a player, I can't think of anyone better than Scott Rolen in his prime.  Dude had tremendous accuracy, a very strong arm, great reaction time and a gold standard for glove work around the bag.  You rarely saw Rolen in a bad position when he got set to throw, his ability to go from a catch to a throw position quickly was awe inspiring.

more than anything elase: a strong chest
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Andyzipp on April 01, 2009, 11:06:57 am
That is different.  Reaction (cat-like reaction) is critical at third, hence why most think that catchers make for good third baseman.  What you want out of your third baseman is the following: Good reaction, good glove, excellent footwork, strong and accurate arm.  Not in that order, but you check off those items so you can evaluate how good of a defensive third baseman you have.

If the litmus test would be found in a player, I can't think of anyone better than Scott Rolen in his prime.  Dude had tremendous accuracy, a very strong arm, great reaction time and a gold standard for glove work around the bag.  You rarely saw Rolen in a bad position when he got set to throw, his ability to go from a catch to a throw position quickly was awe inspiring.

This is how I was taught to "build" an infield, that is, select players for the positions
1b...glove, anything else is a bonus
2b...glove, range
3b...arm
ss...glove, arm, range
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Deja Vu on April 01, 2009, 11:56:18 am
good for my AL-only fantasy team: i have mark teahen and was afraid he'd be traded out of the AL to the astros.

i hope the astros at least asked about teahen, for the sake of ed wade being on top of things.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: ValpoCory on April 02, 2009, 11:18:50 am
The Lizard on Drew Sutton:

"
Baker said during pregame warmups that the Reds could get 25-year-old shortstop Drew Sutton from the Astros in the deal. Sutton hit .317 with 20 homers and 69 RBIs in 133 games for Double-A Corpus Christi last season.

“We get a player to be named later and I assume it’s going to be him,” Baker said. “The Astros told me he has good skills, good talent and good speed. They told me he’s a ballplayer.”
"

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/recap?gid=290401118


Referencing HH from above, how is this happening?   With Sutton on the 40-man roster, he would be ineligible.   Possibly, is the rule 25-man roster instead of 40-man?
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: MusicMan on April 02, 2009, 11:23:48 am
IF so, Ed Wade once again overpays.  At least it wasn't Sutton and Bogesevic!  *sigh*

I want to be Ed Wade's car dealer.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: jbm on April 02, 2009, 12:15:43 pm
Maybe I am missing the sarcasm, but getting a player who the Astros feel can fill a major league roster spot, and only giving up Sutton seems like an easy decision.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Phil_in_CS on April 02, 2009, 12:18:18 pm
Maybe I am missing the sarcasm, but getting a player who the Astros feel can fill a major league roster spot, and only giving up Sutton seems like an easy decision.

The Astros have been giving up next year's starters for this year's journeyman for way too long.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Russe on April 02, 2009, 12:22:29 pm
My thoughts exactly.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: HudsonHawk on April 02, 2009, 12:24:33 pm
Referencing HH from above, how is this happening?   With Sutton on the 40-man roster, he would be ineligible.   Possibly, is the rule 25-man roster instead of 40-man?

To clarify...you're right, it's the 25-man, not the 40-man.  A PTBNL cannot be an active Major League player, but can be on the 40-man.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Noe on April 02, 2009, 12:27:03 pm
To clarify...you're right, it's the 25-man, not the 40-man.  A PTBNL cannot be an active Major League player, but can be on the 40-man.

Yeah, I thought it was major league time that dictated whether he can be shipped within the league.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: HudsonHawk on April 02, 2009, 12:28:41 pm
Yeah, I thought it was major league time that dictated whether he can be shipped within the league.

Well, if he's not an active ML player, then he changes leagues. 
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Noe on April 02, 2009, 12:30:07 pm
The Astros have been giving up next year's starters for this year's journeyman for way too long.

Yes, that is the idea.  What would make this a win-win situation is if Houston was *only* one missing piece away from being a contender.  Re: a platoon third baseman at best, a possible journeyman player at worse is not typically what one calls a missing piece away from being a contender, but then again, this is Ed Wade who traded for Hawkins and Wolf last year and darn near had his club in the playoffs.  The way it looks right now is that Cincy got the better of the deal because they got younger by trading away a guy they had no roster spot for.  That's good horse trading.  Ed Wade, however, did what he had to do... Chris Johnson is not... repeat *NOT* ready.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: JaneDoe on April 02, 2009, 12:32:08 pm
Has it been officially announced that PTBNL = Sutton?
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Noe on April 02, 2009, 12:34:00 pm
Has it been officially announced that PTBNL = Sutton?

Not officially, just rumor from Dusty Baker.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: jbm on April 02, 2009, 12:38:40 pm
Yes, that is the idea.  What would make this a win-win situation is if Houston was *only* one missing piece away from being a contender.  Re: a platoon third baseman at best, a possible journeyman player at worse is not typically what one calls a missing piece away from being a contender, but then again, this is Ed Wade who traded for Hawkins and Wolf last year and darn near had his club in the playoffs.  The way it looks right now is that Cincy got the better of the deal because they got younger by trading away a guy they had no roster spot for.  That's good horse trading.  Ed Wade, however, did what he had to do... Chris Johnson is not... repeat *NOT* ready.

Sutton might be a big loss.  Then again, he might be a career minor leaguer who never makes the majors.  The Astros must have had some questions about him.  He was 25 repeating AA last year.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Duman on April 02, 2009, 12:40:27 pm
Sutton might be a big loss.  Then again, he might be a career minor leaguer who never makes the majors.  The Astros must have had some questions about him.  He was 25 repeating AA last year.

I call this selling high.  Sutton had not shown much before last year and may have just peaked.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: matadorph on April 02, 2009, 12:42:39 pm
The Astros have been giving up next year's starters for this year's journeyman for way too long.

And which "next year's starters" became actual starters?

Granted, the Jennings deal turned out to be a disaster and it likely cost Purpura his job, but I don't see that as evidence of a pattern of bad trades. Scott and Albers have been quality additions for the Orioles, but Miguel Tejada has been a solid add for the Astros. The jury is still out on the Lidge deal.

Zobrist and Talbot haven't exactly proven Palillo correct.

Burke and Qualls for Valverde? No question about the wisdom of that move. And need I remind you of what the experts said about the acquisitions of Wolf, Hawkins, and Erstad last year?
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Duman on April 02, 2009, 12:55:59 pm
And which "next year's starters" became actual starters?

Granted, the Jennings deal turned out to be a disaster and it likely cost Purpura his job, but I don't see that as evidence of a pattern of bad trades. Scott and Albers have been quality additions for the Orioles, but Miguel Tejada has been a solid add for the Astros. The jury is still out on the Lidge deal.

Zobrist and Talbot haven't exactly proven Palillo correct.

Burke and Qualls for Valverde? No question about the wisdom of that move. And need I remind you of what the experts said about the acquisitions of Wolf, Hawkins, and Erstad last year?

And remember Troy Patton was the "jewel" in the Tejada trade and he missed all of last season with surgery and will start this year at AA.  Not exactly a difference maker if he were still with the Astros.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: MusicMan on April 02, 2009, 12:58:22 pm
To be clear: I was talking about Wade's habit of overpaying.

He threw in Bruntlett in the Lidge deal and then had to look for a backup INF.
He thew in Sarfate on the Tejada deal at the last minute, when he would have had all the leverage a day later.
He has, by all estimates, given up a top-10 prospect when CIncy was dealing a guy they might end up releasing.

It's not that he's adding bad pieces, it's that he's willing to pay $2.10/gallon just to avoid the left turn to the $1.90/gallon pump across the street.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: juliogotay on April 02, 2009, 01:15:24 pm
The Astros have been giving up next year's starters for this year's journeyman for way too long.




Where do you think Sutton was going to start next year? He's not considered a ML SS and Matsui is signed IIRC thru '10.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Bench on April 02, 2009, 01:30:06 pm
Isn't Sutton just an unpolished, younger version of Keppinger?
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Duman on April 02, 2009, 01:32:50 pm
To be clear: I was talking about Wade's habit of overpaying.

He threw in Bruntlett in the Lidge deal and then had to look for a backup INF.
He thew in Sarfate on the Tejada deal at the last minute, when he would have had all the leverage a day later.
He has, by all estimates, given up a top-10 prospect when CIncy was dealing a guy they might end up releasing.

It's not that he's adding bad pieces, it's that he's willing to pay $2.10/gallon just to avoid the left turn to the $1.90/gallon pump across the street.


A top 10 prospect that might not crack the top 15 in other org's.  He was being groomed as a utility player in the AFL.  A guy who can platoon now verses a guy who might be a good bench player later is a good trade IMHO
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Mr. Happy on April 02, 2009, 01:44:52 pm
A top 10 prospect that might not crack the top 15 in other org's.  He was being groomed as a utility player in the AFL.  A guy who can platoon now verses a guy who might be a good bench player later is a good trade IMHO

I agree. Personnel moves are easy to second guess from the cheap seats.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Ron Brand on April 02, 2009, 01:52:12 pm
All this chatter is well and good, but what does Baseball Prospectus say?
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Mr. Happy on April 02, 2009, 02:03:07 pm
All this chatter is well and good, but what does Baseball Prospectus say?

BP can kiss my grits.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Ron Brand on April 02, 2009, 02:29:43 pm
At least we can be grateful that Coop doesn't set his watch by BP's recommendations.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: MRaup on April 02, 2009, 03:24:22 pm
BP can kiss my grits.

You might want to wash those grits afterwords...
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Bob Sakamano on April 02, 2009, 04:02:42 pm
A top 10 prospect that might not crack the top 15 in other org's.  He was being groomed as a utility player in the AFL.  A guy who can platoon now verses a guy who might be a good bench player later is a good trade IMHO

Thank you for posting this. I seriously feel like my head is going to explode when fans either praise or criticize deals by team prospect ranking systems, because without any context they're completely irrelevant. The #1 prospect in one system might be the #15 prospect in another... or vice versa, etc. In the case of the Astros, the system is perceived as being weak now, so the numbers are inflated. I certainly haven't seen any projections of Sutton being more than a good bench player, so I wouldn't lose sleep if he is the PTBNL.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: MusicMan on April 02, 2009, 04:03:15 pm
I'm losing sleep anyway, so I'll continue with my previously recorded program.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Noe on April 02, 2009, 06:48:43 pm
Thank you for posting this. I seriously feel like my head is going to explode when fans either praise or criticize deals by team prospect ranking systems, because without any context they're completely irrelevant. The #1 prospect in one system might be the #15 prospect in another... or vice versa, etc. In the case of the Astros, the system is perceived as being weak now, so the numbers are inflated. I certainly haven't seen any projections of Sutton being more than a good bench player, so I wouldn't lose sleep if he is the PTBNL.

Actually, I probably started the whining if it were Sutton that they traded.  Again, it's nothing against Keppinger nor in praise of Sutton that I made such a comment.  What I said was that Ed Wade just gave up young for what seems like an older version of the same player.  However, that is why you have scouts and you look at guys to make sure you know what you're getting.  That Cincy was really close to letting Keppinger go because they wanted to go younger for the same job makes one think that either the prospects that the Reds think they have are much better than the prospects that Houston has that the Astros would not consider elevating not only Sutton but Chris Johnson as well or the Reds can't see the value of Keppinger and have scouts who really suck!

So that tells you right there that Wade *had* to make this deal and now he has to hope it works out.  Keppinger isn't someone you go looking for per se, I don't care what stats say.  He's been at best a utility player his major league time.  But you know, if this is how it has to be because this is making lemonade out of lemons, then it's a good thing on Wade's part.  But what I hear fans, media and pundits continue to say is why are the Astros constantly pretending to be in contention when they would be better off just giving jobs to youngsters and letting them play.  Someone rightfully said it: trading your only prospects from the minors for average players is not the way to rebuild the farm club nor have youngsters ready for callup when you need them.  But that is because Houston doesn't rebuild, they reload.  Want any more evidence than this that this is your Houston Astros?

But Sutton isn't officially the guy traded so it's all a moot point until he is on his way to Cincy.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: VirtualBob on April 02, 2009, 07:10:27 pm

But Sutton isn't officially the guy traded so it's all a moot point until he is on his way to Cincy.

Right.  It could be Johnson or Bogusevic.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Jacksonian on April 02, 2009, 07:30:01 pm
Again, it's nothing against Keppinger nor in praise of Sutton that I made such a comment.  What I said was that Ed Wade just gave up young for what seems like an older version of the same player. 

If they profile similarly then the biggest difference, and IMO the only one that matters in this case, is that Keppinger is major league experienced (at least somewhat successfully at that) and Sutton is not.  Wade clearly values experience over youth in this instance.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Noe on April 02, 2009, 09:04:35 pm
If they profile similarly then the biggest difference, and IMO the only one that matters in this case, is that Keppinger is major league experienced (at least somewhat successfully at that) and Sutton is not.  Wade clearly values experience over youth in this instance.

And the overriding issue is that the owner does not believe in rebuilding... reloading, yes, that he believes in.  So as a GM you have to find lightning in the bottle from less young players and more fringe veterans.  Overall a good plan, but it's not the usual MOD for mlb organizations.  Houston is different in that regard, the owner wants to win every year.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: DVauthrin on April 02, 2009, 09:16:58 pm
  Houston is different in that regard, the owner wants to win every year.

Which is a trait that should be applauded.    Sometimes rebuilding is not a bad option, but executing it is trickier than some fans realize. 
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: JimR on April 02, 2009, 09:52:39 pm
And the overriding issue is that the owner does not believe in rebuilding... reloading, yes, that he believes in.  So as a GM you have to find lightning in the bottle from less young players and more fringe veterans.  Overall a good plan, but it's not the usual MOD for mlb organizations.  Houston is different in that regard, the owner wants to win every year.

which is a good reason to love the Astros.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Mr. Happy on April 02, 2009, 10:05:19 pm
which is a good reason to love the Astros.

I agree wholeheartedly. Clubs too often go into the well of their fans' patience by telling them that they are rebuilding. See, Chicago Cubs. Believe it or not, one year the Cubs (under Andy McPhail) had a PR slogan of "The Chicago Cubs: we're working on it."
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: cougar on April 02, 2009, 11:58:24 pm
I agree wholeheartedly. Clubs too often go into the well of their fans' patience by telling them that they are rebuilding. See, Chicago Cubs. Believe it or not, one year the Cubs (under Andy McPhail) had a PR slogan of "The Chicago Cubs: we're working on it."

"The Chicago Cubs: As productive as a Boston construction project!"
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: At Ease on April 03, 2009, 12:17:43 am
I'm kind of partial to rebuilding efforts.  The Astros teams of the early 90's were some of my favorites.

Wish we could have gotten Janish from the Reds.  He's an incredible talent in the field.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: AtascAstro on April 03, 2009, 01:12:11 am
which is a good reason to love the Astros.

This thread is awesome!

Just to recap - what began as a thread about the acquisition of a utility infielder, quickly made its way through the finer points of PBTNL agreements, the proper evaluation of 3rd basemen, a glancing overview of our current GM's trade tendencies, includes feedback on the likely PBNL from our resident Bus Ride gurus, gives a fine FU to both BP and the Cubs, contains at least 1 proper Noe multi-paragraph post, reminds us that BG is first and foremost concerned about how the newly acquired player will fill out a uniform and after 6 pages...Coach reminds us that this is why we love the Astros.

Huzzah!
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: BudGirl on April 03, 2009, 05:48:58 am
This thread is awesome!

Just to recap - what began as a thread about the acquisition of a utility infielder, quickly made its way through the finer points of PBTNL agreements, the proper evaluation of 3rd basemen, a glancing overview of our current GM's trade tendencies, includes feedback on the likely PBNL from our resident Bus Ride gurus, gives a fine FU to both BP and the Cubs, contains at least 1 proper Noe multi-paragraph post, reminds us that BG is first and foremost concerned about how the newly acquired player will fill out a uniform and after 6 pages...Coach reminds us that this is why we love the Astros.

Huzzah!

I said nothing about Keppinger. 
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: subnuclear on April 03, 2009, 07:39:55 am
And the overriding issue is that the owner does not believe in rebuilding... reloading, yes, that he believes in.  So as a GM you have to find lightning in the bottle from less young players and more fringe veterans.  Overall a good plan, but it's not the usual MOD for mlb organizations.  Houston is different in that regard, the owner wants to win every year.

Also, Ed Wade appears to insist on putting square pegs in square holes even if it means sacrificing overall talent level.    Tim Purpura seemed less able or more timid about doing that. 
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Mr. Happy on April 03, 2009, 08:01:06 am
Also, Ed Wade appears to insist on putting square pegs in square holes even if it means sacrificing overall talent level.    Tim Purpura seemed less able or more timid about doing that. 
Who have we sacrificed?
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: AtascAstro on April 03, 2009, 08:01:46 am
I said nothing about Keppinger. 

Ahh you are right, my apologies, in my zeal I missed the reference to Mr Smith.  I'lll edit my post appropriately, wouldn't want to mislead anyone.


Edit - oops, didn't realize that you can only edit your last post.  So by posting this I removed the ability to rectify my error.  So Keppinger does nothing for you at all, maybe just a little?
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: MusicMan on April 03, 2009, 09:14:26 am
Who have we sacrificed?

Well, I keep volunteering Noe, but he seems adverse to electroshock therapy.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: Jacksonian on April 03, 2009, 10:31:22 am
Well, I keep volunteering Noe, but he seems adverse to electroshock therapy.

You have to kill him one word at a time.  No one has that kind of stamina.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: jent on April 10, 2009, 05:20:36 pm
At the RR game last night I was surprised to see that D. Sutton was in the starting line-up given all the speculation about him being the PTNBL in the trade.

Understanding those rumors were never confirmed (other than being in the official game notes one day...and later vanishing), has there been any further rumblings regarding the PTNBL? Thanks.
Title: Re: Keppinger for PTNBL
Post by: pravata on April 17, 2009, 11:04:40 am
"Sutton was the guy all along," Jocketty said. "We just wanted to see him some more. We think he's a better fit for us."

"He's a guy we like a lot," Jocketty said. "He's a good athlete, he plays a number of positons, he can run, he's a switch-hitter."
Link (http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3aafe1f4d2-355e-4abb-9ae4-2e3f993624ca&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com)