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General Discussion => Talk Zone => Topic started by: Noe on June 03, 2008, 02:37:06 pm
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There has been some talk about Cooper and WadeSmith talking about the idea of sitting Michael Bourn this series. The Pirates are going to throw three leftys at them this series, so Bourn is probably not going to start. Bourn struggles versus leftys was accented against the Brewers, especially Parra. It got so bad Cooper decided to let Brandon Backe hit away instead of bunting two runners into scoring position.
So that's an interesting situation for Cooper and one he has apparently decided he knows how he'll react: he's going to bench Bourn. Okay, that's a good idea but who is he going to put in center to play for Bourn in the vast expanse of PNC Park. That park requires a good CF because of the huge gaps and quirky angles. So if he's going to sit Bourn simply because of offense, and I'm not saying it's a bad idea either, then who will fill the defense need for him?
Pence?
Erstad?
Cheito?
Well, Pence is a good hitter and probably could hit leadoff three days in a row and Houston will be okay. But on defense, Pence is lost in CF. Gamble? Yes, on defense it will certainly be.
Erstad? Well he's probably the best solution with his veteran savvy and ability to play very well on defense. And his offense has been really good lately. But looking at his stats against left handers, well... it makes you think he's going to struggle... just a tad. So you're sacrificing Bourn's defense for not much more offense if Erstad's number prove true against leftys. Good idea? Only if Erstad somehow goes against trend and hits well, else it's not such a good idea at PNC.
Cheito? He actually has very decent career numbers hitting against left handers. But his season stats (small sample size warning) is a concern. So three days of Cheito should make the masses rise up and notice.
So if for no other reason, this series should be fun to follow in terms of CF defense and the offense you've traded for.
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Berkman should play CF... and bat leadoff.
And wear a hat with Puma-ears on it.
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I think I would start Cheito, use Erstad in later innings for pinch hitter if needed and Bourn for a defensive substitution, again if needed. But I am in no way an astute baseball mind....or an astute mind of any kind for that matter.
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Cooper is trying my patience because he appears to have none.
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Berkman should play CF... and bat leadoff.
Well that's been Burzmali's plan from the get-go
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I'm probably missing something obvious, but we're talking about a .100 point difference with a fairly small sample size. He wouldnt likely get more than 10 ABs in the series against the starters, so benching him would create a statistical opportunity for one more hit total in the series? Seems like his value in the field and on the base paths (when/if he gets on) would sufficiently offset that loss at the plate.
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Well that's been Burzmali's plan from the get-go
No, man! Berkman's batting 2, that's the key! Don't you get it! It's 7 minutes!! Step into my office? Why? 'Cause you're fuckin fired, that's why!!!
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I guess what it boils down to is when you are losing you do what you can to change the course of the direction of the streak. If he sits the astros win then he is brillinat as our star administrators on a good day
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Step into my office? Why? 'Cause you're fuckin fired, that's why!!!
I got news for you Mr. Brown. You haven't heard the last of me. You may think I'm shit now, but someday you'll be sorry you cut me. I'm gonna catch on somewhere else, and every time I pitch against you, I'm gonna stick it up your ass
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Cooper is trying my patience because he appears to have none.
Maybe not POTW, but very likely to be the most accurate POTW.
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Pence stays in right, bats leadoff when Bourn's not in. Bourn starts 2 of the 3 games. Erstad gets the other start, Cheito plays 1 inning somewhere in there. This is all pulled directly out of my 2-hole.
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So let's say it all works better than anyone imagined (doesn't matter whether it's Cheito or Erstad), then what? None of the bench options are long term solutions so what good can come of this? Blog & radio fodder, yippee. Does some time on the bench give them some opportunity to work with Bourn that they wouldn't have been able to do if he started? From what others have said, playing time doesn't really impact coaching time/opportunities so I don't think that is the case.
The way I see it, there is only one starting CF on this team. Sitting him to get an occasional favorable matchup w/a bench player is one thing - sitting him an entire series for little or no offensive gain just doesn't make sense. Conversley, I can't imagine a 3 game series in which the opportunity cost of his defensive speed doesn't cost us runs - just how many runs is the replacement expected to generate in return?
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Pence stays in right, bats leadoff when Bourn's not in. Bourn starts 2 of the 3 games. Erstad gets the other start, Cheito plays 1 inning somewhere in there. This is all pulled directly out of my 2-hole.
Pence should never, ever bat leadoff again. throughout time immemorial. never. ever.
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Pence should never, ever bat leadoff again. throughout time immemorial. never. ever.
Amen. Pass the sweet potatoes.
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Conversley, I can't imagine a 3 game series in which the opportunity cost of his defensive speed doesn't cost us runs - just how many runs is the replacement expected to generate in return?
Coming soon... the TI-999 business calculator, with new expected rate of runs returned function!
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Coming soon... the TI-999 business calculator, with new expected rate of runs returned function!
Can you play Tetris on it? My old TI-89 with Tetris made Organic Chemistry fly by back in college. At least the first time.
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Maybe if he gets more at bats against left handers, the situation will become more familiar and he will improve. Leave him in for his defense and let him bunt if he has to.
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This idea is nuts. You don't sit Bourn for a series because he's facing three lefties. The only way he will get better vs LHP is to face them on a regular basis.
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Apparently Wade is in on the plan as well. Once again the Mgt. is starting to panic.
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Yikes. I love watching Michael Bourn run 'em down in CF. Bat him 2nd behind Kaz and have him bunt if you really don't think he can hit against LHP, but don't sit him. A true CF makes such a difference on this (or any) team.
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Apparently Wade is in on the plan as well. Once again the Mgt. is starting to panic.
this isn't good. it's the kind of action that .093 would try, not the astros, and can mess with bourn's confidence.
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Last 7 days:
Matsui: 5 for 22, no BB, no XHB.
Tejada: 3 for 25, no BB, 1 HR
Lee: 4 for 24, no BB, 1 HR
Yeah, benching Bourn oughta right the ship.
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The only change in tonight's lineup is Ausmus catching Wandy. Bourn leads off.
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The only change in tonight's lineup is Ausmus catching Wandy. Bourn leads off.
Hallelujah, amen.
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this isn't good. it's the kind of action that .093 would try, not the astros, and can mess with bourn's confidence.
Actually, I thought "Dusty Baker/Corey Patterson". Patterson was suppose to be a can't miss prospect CF with lots of power and great defensively. Then Baker started to mess with his head a little, treating him like a veteran player and benching him for long stretches until he got his game back (he had no game yet, he was a damn rookie). Some of what happened to Patterson is on Patterson, but the reality is that Baker panicked because management believed they should be getting more from their top rated prospect. Baker tried really stupid things to try and fix Patterson except for one thing: patience.
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The only change in tonight's lineup is Ausmus catching Wandy. Bourn leads off.
Cooler heads prevailed. However, Ausmus doesn't catch Wandy, he catches Moehler and Oswalt. Hmmmm... is Towles getting some bench time to clear his head?
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Cooler heads prevailed. However, Ausmus doesn't catch Wandy, he catches Moehler and Oswalt. Hmmmm... is Towles getting some bench time to clear his head?
Wade said. “We’re trying to create an environment that’s positive."
http://www.spikesnstars.com/2008/06/03/wades-8-simple-steps-sixes-and-sevens-the-bar-sinister/
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Wade said. “We’re trying to create an environment that’s positive."
http://www.spikesnstars.com/2008/06/03/wades-8-simple-steps-sixes-and-sevens-the-bar-sinister/
Whatever that means. The reality is that Houston painted itself into a corner with Towles. He was a AA catcher who really was only there because Santangello got suspended 50 games. That he was promoted to Houston in September was something that Tim Purpura was resisting heavily... until he got fired and they went ahead and did that.
Now they've annoited the rookie their major league catcher instead of the catcher for the future, when truth be told he needed at minimum one more full year in the minors, preferrably AAA. They did not pursue a catcher in the offseason, they signed Ausmus to mentor the heir apparent and they had no reasonable alternatives in case this PR errr... baseball move failed.
"Positive environment"? Wow, that's new.
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Whatever that means. The reality is that Houston painted itself into a corner with Towles. He was a AA catcher who really was only there because Santangello got suspended 50 games. That he was promoted to Houston in September was something that Tim Purpura was resisting heavily... until he got fired and they went ahead and did that.
Now they've annoited the rookie their catcher of the future when truth be told he needed at minimum one more full year in the minors, preferrably AAA. They did not pursue a catcher in the offseason, they signed Ausmus to mentor the heir apparent and they had no reasonable alternatives in case this PR errr... baseball move failed.
"Positive environment"? Wow, that's new.
If he was a bowler they'd drop the bumpers.
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Actually, I thought "Dusty Baker/Corey Patterson". Patterson was suppose to be a can't miss prospect CF with lots of power and great defensively. Then Baker started to mess with his head a little, treating him like a veteran player and benching him for long stretches until he got his game back (he had no game yet, he was a damn rookie). Some of what happened to Patterson is on Patterson, but the reality is that Baker panicked because management believed they should be getting more from their top rated prospect. Baker tried really stupid things to try and fix Patterson except for one thing: patience.
this is another good example. forgot how highly touted patterson was in chicago.
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Whatever that means. The reality is that Houston painted itself into a corner with Towles. He was a AA catcher who really was only there because Santangello got suspended 50 games. That he was promoted to Houston in September was something that Tim Purpura was resisting heavily... until he got fired and they went ahead and did that.
Now they've annoited the rookie their major league catcher instead of the catcher for the future, when truth be told he needed at minimum one more full year in the minors, preferrably AAA. They did not pursue a catcher in the offseason, they signed Ausmus to mentor the heir apparent and they had no reasonable alternatives in case this PR errr... baseball move failed.
"Positive environment"? Wow, that's new.
coop just said towles would get the start thursday
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Baker tried really stupid things to try and fix Patterson except for one thing: patience.
so absolutely true. Cooper needs to get off the caffeine and calm down. he is too hyper.
one of the stupidest things i ever did as a coach (yes, it is a long list) was to let my assistants talk me out of putting a freshman in CF at the start of the '97 season and just letting him play. we wound up bringing him up mid-season for district play (after trying to do it earlier in a tournament, which is another story). he was a really good player during our playoff run to the state tournament, but he would have been so much better if i had started him there at the beginning of the yerar and just let him grow as a player as we played. that requires patience and tolerance of mistakes, and i should have done it.
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so absolutely true. Cooper needs to get off the caffeine and calm down. he is too hyper.
I completely agree. He's is too hysterical and lacks patience. He shouldn't be moaping about how he doesn't know how he'll hold up with the way we play. He needs to take a cup half-full approach and be glad were 2 games over with the amount of road games we've played. He seems to manage like a sports radio caller.
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I'm in agreement that Bourn should start in all these games, but I was disappointed in his play tonight. Not running out the grounder in the first may have cost the team in an ultimately close game. The baserunning blunder later happens, but at least starting a run-down seems warranted. He appeared to be trying less tonight.
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I'm in agreement that Bourn should start in all these games, but I was disappointed in his play tonight. Not running out the grounder in the first may have cost the team in an ultimately close game. The baserunning blunder later happens, but at least starting a run-down seems warranted. He appeared to be trying less tonight.
bullshit on not trying. in your world, do players who are in their first seasons get to make mistakes or errors?
so very sorry he disappointed you.
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bullshit on not trying. in your world, do players who are in their first seasons get to make mistakes or errors?
so very sorry he disappointed you.
I didn't say he was not trying, I said he appeared to be trying less, which is not the message most would expect to be sent from a player whose manager is considering benching him. Like I said, the baserunning errors happen; it just struck me that he had two lapses in one game, given the circumstances and his track record for not making these types of mistakes.
I typically take the player's side but this one had me scratching my head and seemed out of character from what I've seen of him. Perhaps he was just less focused last night.
The one thing I think fans are allowed to be disappointed with when they pay to see a game is when players appear to give less than 100% effort. Am curious what others think on this.
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I didn't say he was not trying, I said he appeared to be trying less, which is not the message most would expect to be sent from a player whose manager is considering benching him. Like I said, the baserunning errors happen; it just struck me that he had two lapses in one game, given the circumstances and his track record for not making these types of mistakes.
I typically take the player's side but this one had me scratching my head and seemed out of character from what I've seen of him. Perhaps he was just less focused last night.
The one thing I think fans are allowed to be disappointed with when they pay to see a game is when players appear to give less than 100% effort. Am curious what others think on this.
how do you come to the conclusion that he was dogging it? had "less focus?" where is the line between a mistake and "giving less than 100% effort?" how does one tell the difference?
the point of this entire thread was the need to have patience with young players lack of success and mistakes. perhaps that poiint was too obscure.
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I'm in agreement that Bourn should start in all these games, but I was disappointed in his play tonight. Not running out the grounder in the first may have cost the team in an ultimately close game. The baserunning blunder later happens, but at least starting a run-down seems warranted. He appeared to be trying less tonight.
I think he was one of the most important players in last night's win. He caught everything they put out there, and that let Wandy relax, mix his speeds and pitches and let them hit into a lot of flyouts. Probably would have gone a little differently if Bourn isn't out there not letting anything in his general vicinity hit the ground.
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I completely agree. He's is too hysterical and lacks patience. He shouldn't be moaping about how he doesn't know how he'll hold up with the way we play. He needs to take a cup half-full approach and be glad were 2 games over with the amount of road games we've played. He seems to manage like a sports radio caller.
If he managed like a radio caller, Bourn would be in Round Rock, Pence would lead off, and Towles would be at the bottom of Buffalo Bayou.
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I would start Bourn 100% of the time and Towles 3 out of 5 games. We aren't going to win anything this year unless they produce, so it would pay to show patience. Both have shown flashes.
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I would start Bourn 100% of the time and Towles 3 out of 5 games. We aren't going to win anything this year unless they produce, so it would pay to show patience. Both have shown flashes.
Depends what you mean by "produce". If they do a good job of catching the ball, then that's fine. Towles bats #8! Bourn has a little more pressure to get on base, but the runs will come from #2 through #7. Bourn and Towles are not the key to this offense.
I'd play 'em as much as possible for their "D", and let the "O" fall where it may.
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I wouldn't mind seeing Towles catch Roy tonight. I can't imagine Oswalt could have pitched much worse to start the year had Towles been catching him. Especially given Roy seems to feel he knows what he needs to do, what does it matter who catches him? Offensively, Ausmus may be hitting for a higher average, but everything else falls to Towles in that category. Wouldn't mind seeing Ausmus paired with Chacon to better use his experience to know when to pacify the pitcher.
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I wouldn't mind seeing Towles catch Roy tonight...
In batting average? Yep, that'd be nice.
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I hadn't noticed that we slid to 7.5 games back of the fucking Cubs after tonight's loss.
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I hadn't noticed that we slid to 7.5 games back of the fucking Cubs after tonight's loss.
2 games over .500. Let's focus on winning. The Cubs will trip over their own dicks.
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2 games over .500. Let's focus on winning. The Cubs will trip over their own dicks.
They're known for leaving their strap-ons on the floor. Silly cubs.
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In batting average? Yep, that'd be nice.
Almost got your wish
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Depends what you mean by "produce". If they do a good job of catching the ball, then that's fine. Towles bats #8! Bourn has a little more pressure to get on base, but the runs will come from #2 through #7. Bourn and Towles are not the key to this offense.
I'd play 'em as much as possible for their "D", and let the "O" fall where it may.
Hindsight and all, but perhaps Bourn makes that tough catch against the wall that Cheito couldn't quite snare. Doesn't really matter now, I know.
The most frustrating thing to me about this latest road swing was that it seemed like the Good Guys couldn't catch a break. Hopefully that evens out with the return to MMPUS.
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Hindsight and all, but perhaps Bourn makes that tough catch against the wall that Cheito couldn't quite snare. Doesn't really matter now, I know.
The most frustrating thing to me about this latest road swing was that it seemed like the Good Guys couldn't catch a break. Hopefully that evens out with the return to MMPUS.
The Astros put the "D" in "Disappeared" this road trip. Coop is tweaking the lineup for runs and it's costing more runs that it's earning. With "Clank" taking over from Towles, it won't get any better.
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The Astros put the "D" in "Disappeared" this road trip. Coop is tweaking the lineup for runs and it's costing more runs that it's earning. With "Clank" taking over from Towles, it won't get any better.
To be fair, Ausmus is taking over for Towles. Quintero is taking over for Ausmus.
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To be fair, Ausmus is taking over for Towles. Quintero is taking over for Ausmus.
True. And, if memory serves, Ausmus usually enjoys himself a bit of STL pitching.