Author Topic: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up  (Read 25944 times)

homer

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Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« on: June 10, 2007, 01:39:07 pm »
per the broadcast
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Navin R Johnson

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2007, 03:11:09 pm »
And Q is PISSED.

""I'm mad," he said. "I'm mad with this organization. I can play here. I can play. I know that. ... And nobody knows somebody put me on waivers. I don't know what's going on right now. I can play for 29 more teams. I want to play for 29 more teams, not only Houston."

WARNING, link is to JdJo's Blog in the Chron.

http://blogs.chron.com/baseballblog/

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Alkie

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2007, 03:24:57 pm »
Just what the holy fuck is going on with this goddamn organization?

LISTEN UP, you fucking assholes.  You make a minimum of more money than most surgeons.  You didn't get sent down "just because."  You got sent down for a fucking reason.  Shut the fuck up.  Just shut the FUCK UP.

Even I'M getting goddamn tired of hearing all this shit.  Wah, wah, wah.  Oh no, you have to go live in Austin for a few weeks.  That's a fucking shame.  Sure, the women are gorgeous, but you'll also have to eat BBQ and not pay state income tax.

DON'T LIKE IT?  QUIT.  Go back to your hometown and sell insurance you whiny fucking CUNTS.  ARSDFGHWEGTWED.

Navin R Johnson

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2007, 03:28:48 pm »
Just what the holy fuck is going on with this goddamn organization?

LISTEN UP, you fucking assholes.  You make a minimum of more money than most surgeons.  You didn't get sent down "just because."  You got sent down for a fucking reason.  Shut the fuck up.  Just shut the FUCK UP.

Even I'M getting goddamn tired of hearing all this shit.  Wah, wah, wah.  Oh no, you have to go live in Austin for a few weeks.  That's a fucking shame.  Sure, the women are gorgeous, but you'll also have to eat BBQ and not pay state income tax.

DON'T LIKE IT?  QUIT.  Go back to your hometown and sell insurance you whiny fucking CUNTS.  ARSDFGHWEGTWED.

Ditto
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2007, 03:58:07 pm »
Just what the holy fuck is going on with this goddamn organization?

LISTEN UP, you fucking assholes.  You make a minimum of more money than most surgeons.  You didn't get sent down "just because."  You got sent down for a fucking reason.  Shut the fuck up.  Just shut the FUCK UP.

Even I'M getting goddamn tired of hearing all this shit.  Wah, wah, wah.  Oh no, you have to go live in Austin for a few weeks.  That's a fucking shame.  Sure, the women are gorgeous, but you'll also have to eat BBQ and not pay state income tax.

DON'T LIKE IT?  QUIT.  Go back to your hometown and sell insurance you whiny fucking CUNTS.  ARSDFGHWEGTWED.

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Amy

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2007, 04:13:18 pm »
And Q is PISSED.

""I'm mad," he said. "I'm mad with this organization. I can play here. I can play. I know that. ... And nobody knows somebody put me on waivers. I don't know what's going on right now. I can play for 29 more teams. I want to play for 29 more teams, not only Houston."

WARNING, link is to JdJo's Blog in the Chron.

http://blogs.chron.com/baseballblog/



Give me a fucking break.  Ausmus' job has pretty much been there for the taking for years.  All Q had to do was hit the ball and be a competent catcher to force the issue.  Shut the fuck up.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2007, 04:23:50 pm »
Ausmus' job has pretty much been there for the taking for years. 

You base this off......

1) The fact that the Astros realized a year after trading him to the Tigers that it was a mindbogglingly stupid mistake and brought him back?

2) They continue to beg him to return and pay him whatever he wants year after year?

3) He's still the primary catcher at age 57?

4) For the "taking"?

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2007, 04:39:48 pm »
You base this off......

Well, I believe this is the third year in a row that Gar has tried giving backup catchers more playing time in a desperate search for offense.  If any of them had hit well, Ausmus may have been relegated to backup.  Hell, they even claimed Munson basically from the scrap heap and moved him back to a position he hadn't played since college, hoping to find a catcher that can hit.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2007, 04:42:34 pm »
Give me a fucking break.  Ausmus' job has pretty much been there for the taking for years.  All Q had to do was hit the ball and be a competent catcher to force the issue.  Shut the fuck up.

ausmus made tim redding into a good pitcher for a season.  tim.  redding.

could be a pitchers repeat of this post-bagwell fundamentals fiasco whenever ausmus decides to retire.

Rebel Jew

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2007, 04:45:41 pm »
Well, I believe this is the third year in a row that Gar has tried giving backup catchers more playing time in a desperate search for offense.  If any of them had hit well, Ausmus may have been relegated to backup.  Hell, they even claimed Munson basically from the scrap heap and moved him back to a position he hadn't played since college, hoping to find a catcher that can hit.

you should just stop right now.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2007, 04:50:57 pm »
ausmus made tim redding into a good pitcher for a season.  tim.  redding.

could be a pitchers repeat of this post-bagwell fundamentals fiasco whenever ausmus decides to retire.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in favor of Ausmus keeping his starting job.  I'm just saying, there have been opportunities each of the last three years for his backups to win significant playing time due to the ineptness of the rest of the lineup.

stubbyc

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2007, 04:58:47 pm »
ausmus made tim redding into a good pitcher for a season.  tim.  redding.

What horseshit.

It's no secret the Astros are seeking to improve the offense at the catcher position.

pravata

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2007, 05:05:19 pm »
What horseshit.

It's no secret the Astros are seeking to improve the offense at the catcher position.

For "years"?  No, not for years.  In the last couple weeks.  While it's possibly not a secret, Ausmus has been having trouble with his back.  The back up catcher looked to be coming into some more playing time.  The organization may have compared what they were seeing in Munson in AAA, much improved defense, and decided they'd rather him than Quintero.

Tim Redding was a nut job.  Ausmus came out to the mound every other pitch to get the guy to stop chasing butterflies and concentrate.  He made him throw something besides his presence announcing high fastball. 

pravata

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2007, 05:06:52 pm »
Don't get me wrong, I'm in favor of Ausmus keeping his starting job.  I'm just saying, there have been opportunities each of the last three years for his backups to win significant playing time due to the ineptness of the rest of the lineup.

So, you're thinking if only Quintero, or some other catcher the Astros actually have had, could hit in the middle of the lineup, Ausmus would have lost his job.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2007, 05:16:07 pm »
And nobody knows somebody put me on waivers. I don't know what's going on right now. I can play for 29 more teams.

Dude, Jason Lane figured this out - can't you?
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pravata

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2007, 05:16:42 pm »
Well, I believe this is the third year in a row that Gar has tried giving backup catchers more playing time in a desperate search for offense.  If any of them had hit well, Ausmus may have been relegated to backup.  Hell, they even claimed Munson basically from the scrap heap and moved him back to a position he hadn't played since college, hoping to find a catcher that can hit.

Ausmus played almost every game the 2nd half of last season.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2007, 05:19:18 pm »
So, you're thinking if only Quintero, or some other catcher the Astros actually have had, could hit in the middle of the lineup, Ausmus would have lost his job.

Yeah, I think if that had happened Ausmus would have been relegated to starting a couple of times a week and late inning defensive replacements.

pravata

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2007, 05:19:51 pm »
And Q is PISSED.

""I'm mad," he said. "I'm mad with this organization. I can play here. I can play. I know that. ... And nobody knows somebody put me on waivers. I don't know what's going on right now. I can play for 29 more teams. I want to play for 29 more teams, not only Houston."

WARNING, link is to JdJo's Blog in the Chron.

http://blogs.chron.com/baseballblog/



Why does he think no other team knows he's on waivers?

pravata

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2007, 05:20:56 pm »
Yeah, I think if that had happened Ausmus would have been relegated to starting a couple of times a week and late inning defensive replacements.

Right, so who was the catcher?  Nobody?  Why didnt they trade for a middle of the lineup catcher?

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2007, 05:27:43 pm »
Right, so who was the catcher?  Nobody?  Why didnt they trade for a middle of the lineup catcher?

Because Purp keeps hoping the rest of the lineup will produce and make his strategy work, I suppose.  Clemens and Pettitte may have had something to do with it too.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2007, 05:37:45 pm »
Why does he think no other team knows he's on waivers?

That's the part of reading the quote that I was wondering about- is JDJO the only person in america to know he was put on waivers?

Quick- get the mets on the phone for a personal recomendation- there might be a build a bear in it for the jesus.


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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2007, 05:57:11 pm »
Well, I believe this is the third year in a row that Gar has tried giving backup catchers more playing time in a desperate search for offense.  If any of them had hit well, Ausmus may have been relegated to backup.  Hell, they even claimed Munson basically from the scrap heap and moved him back to a position he hadn't played since college, hoping to find a catcher that can hit.

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stubbyc

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2007, 06:21:06 pm »
For "years"?  No, not for years.  In the last couple weeks.  While it's possibly not a secret, Ausmus has been having trouble with his back.  The back up catcher looked to be coming into some more playing time.  The organization may have compared what they were seeing in Munson in AAA, much improved defense, and decided they'd rather him than Quintero.

Tim Redding was a nut job.  Ausmus came out to the mound every other pitch to get the guy to stop chasing butterflies and concentrate.  He made him throw something besides his presence announcing high fastball. 

Where did I say "for years"?

I'm not blaming Ausmus for Redding. I just thought it was a terrible example.

pravata

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2007, 06:23:54 pm »
Because Purp keeps hoping the rest of the lineup will produce and make his strategy work, I suppose.  Clemens and Pettitte may have had something to do with it too.

I see, you don't know what "there for the taking" means.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2007, 06:25:53 pm by pravata »

pravata

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2007, 06:25:34 pm »
Where did I say "for years"?

I'm not blaming Ausmus for Redding. I just thought it was a terrible example.

You were agreeing with a post that said "for years".   Munson hit a homerun yesterday.  Ausmus had good at bats today.  I dont think the reason Munson will be catching more is particular for the offense.  Ausmus' back required a cortisone shot. 

It was an excellent example.  That wasnt "blaming" Ausmus, that was suggesting Ausmus did what he could to make Redding look like a major league pitcher.  It was the only season that happened for Redding.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2007, 06:27:26 pm by pravata »

homer

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2007, 06:57:09 pm »
And Q is PISSED.

""I'm mad," he said. "I'm mad with this organization. I can play here. I can play. I know that. ... And nobody knows somebody put me on waivers. I don't know what's going on right now. I can play for 29 more teams. I want to play for 29 more teams, not only Houston."

WARNING, link is to JdJo's Blog in the Chron.

http://blogs.chron.com/baseballblog/



Amazingly, Footer reports a slightly different reaction from Q:

"Said Quintero: 'I can play for 29 more teams. Hopefully, Houston -- that's all I'm going to say.'"

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070610&content_id=2018258&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou
Oye. Vamos, vamos.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2007, 07:02:52 pm »
Amazingly, Footer reports a slightly different reaction from Q:

"Said Quintero: 'I can play for 29 more teams. Hopefully, Houston -- that's all I'm going to say.'"

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070610&content_id=2018258&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou

He figured that someone would actually read what Footer wrote.
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Rebel Jew

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2007, 07:41:09 pm »
Amazingly, Footer reports a slightly different reaction from Q:

"Said Quintero: 'I can play for 29 more teams. Hopefully, Houston -- that's all I'm going to say.'"

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070610&content_id=2018258&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou


could it be that JdJO reported a quote from a non-native English speaker like Q in a different, more controversial context than intended?  could Q have just been saying "I'm upset about being sent down, but I know I'm good enough to play for any team in the majors, including Houston" but Jesus printed it to imply "fuck Houston, they don't know how good I am.  I can play for any other team, and if they can't respect my skills then they can kiss my sweet Latin ass?"
« Last Edit: June 10, 2007, 07:50:35 pm by Joey Trum »

stubbyc

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2007, 07:45:08 pm »
You were agreeing with a post that said "for years".   Munson hit a homerun yesterday.  Ausmus had good at bats today.  I dont think the reason Munson will be catching more is particular for the offense.  Ausmus' back required a cortisone shot. 

It was an excellent example.  That wasnt "blaming" Ausmus, that was suggesting Ausmus did what he could to make Redding look like a major league pitcher.  It was the only season that happened for Redding.

I wasn't responding to or agreeing with the post that said "for years".

The Redding example doesn't make sense. Based on what Redding showed in the minor leagues the expectations were a lot higher than 1 solid season surrounded by total ineffectiveness. Does Ausmus deserve blame for all the poor seasons by Redding?

The Astros have done a poor job of developing starting pitchers since Oswalt, Ausmus or no Ausmus.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2007, 08:00:48 pm »
I wasn't responding to or agreeing with the post that said "for years".

The Redding example doesn't make sense. Based on what Redding showed in the minor leagues the expectations were a lot higher than 1 solid season surrounded by total ineffectiveness. Does Ausmus deserve blame for all the poor seasons by Redding?

The Astros have done a poor job of developing starting pitchers since Oswalt, Ausmus or no Ausmus.

That wasnt clear from your reply.  Right now, I think the situation with Ausmus is that his back is hurting him.  The Astros wanted another catcher.  Williams had already complained about Quintero, Munson has improved his defense, he looks really good right now.

Redding was a nut case.  It was a miracle they got one good year out of him.  As for "poor job", maybe.  Injuries havent helped.  There must be some sort of limit on how many top to the league, Cy Young contending, aces a team can develop every 5 years.   Wandy has hit a bump, there's also Sampson, and Backe.  Also, you're painting yourself into a corner when it comes time for you to complain about the Jennings trade.

pravata

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2007, 08:03:51 pm »

could it be that JdJO reported a quote from a non-native English speaker like Q in a different, more controversial context than intended?  could Q have just been saying "I'm upset about being sent down, but I know I'm good enough to play for any team in the majors, including Houston" but Jesus printed it to imply "fuck Houston, they don't know how good I am.  I can play for any other team, and if they can't respect my skills then they can kiss my sweet Latin ass?"

OH it could most certainly be.  It could also be that Quintero thought he was talking to somebody sympathetic, speaking his own language, (I imagine a whispered phone conversation), somebody who wouldn't use what he said, possibly in confidence, to create a sensationalistic blog entry.  He knew what he was dealing with with Footer.

homer

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2007, 08:04:41 pm »
  Williams had already complained about Quintero

Was there ever any more info on this? Other than the fact that Woody was done with him?
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pravata

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2007, 08:23:53 pm »
Was there ever any more info on this? Other than the fact that Woody was done with him?

I didnt see anything.  But who did Quintero catch after that? 

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2007, 08:35:38 pm »
That wasnt clear from your reply.  Right now, I think the situation with Ausmus is that his back is hurting him.  The Astros wanted another catcher.  Williams had already complained about Quintero, Munson has improved his defense, he looks really good right now.

Redding was a nut case.  It was a miracle they got one good year out of him.  As for "poor job", maybe.  Injuries havent helped.  There must be some sort of limit on how many top to the league, Cy Young contending, aces a team can develop every 5 years.   Wandy has hit a bump, there's also Sampson, and Backe.  Also, you're painting yourself into a corner when it comes time for you to complain about the Jennings trade.

Williams complaining about Quintero was horseshit. Woody Williams with the stuff and command he has right now is not going to be successful regardless of who's catching. Turns out the belt high 86mph fastballs go just as far with Ausmus behind the plate. Even more frustrating was Williams intentionally drilling a guy with no one out in a tie game and Helton on deck.

Oswalt was an unbelievable find and no one can reasonably expect the organization to keep pumping out Oswalts. Maybe you can attribute a lot of it to bad luck and a lack of high draft picks, but the Astros have not developed anything close to a consistent major league starting pitcher since him. They have had guys like Backe and Sampson who have had their moments, but Oswalt has been the only mainstay.

This has nothing to do with Ausmus' ability to handle himself behind the plate. The "Ausmus is so valuable with the young starters" argument doesn't have much merit when the young starters have been terrible in the last several years. How much credit can you really give Ausmus for developing Oswalt?

pravata

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2007, 08:43:21 pm »
Williams complaining about Quintero was horseshit. Woody Williams with the stuff and command he has right now is not going to be successful regardless of who's catching. Turns out the belt high 86mph fastballs go just as far with Ausmus behind the plate. Even more frustrating was Williams intentionally drilling a guy with no one out in a tie game and Helton on deck.

Oswalt was an unbelievable find and no one can reasonably expect the organization to keep pumping out Oswalts. Maybe you can attribute a lot of it to bad luck and a lack of high draft picks, but the Astros have not developed anything close to a consistent major league starting pitcher since him. They have had guys like Backe and Sampson who have had their moments, but Oswalt has been the only mainstay.

This has nothing to do with Ausmus' ability to handle himself behind the plate. The "Ausmus is so valuable with the young starters" argument doesn't have much merit when the young starters have been terrible in the last several years. How much credit can you really give Ausmus for developing Oswalt?

You're all over the place here.  Who has Quintero caught after he stopped catching Williams?  You say that we can't expect the Astros to produce Oswalts on an assembly line, but you use him to measure their minor league system.   I'm not an expert on the Astros minors but seems to me, Lidge and Qualls arent bad products.  Also, it's easy to dismiss the injuries. Nonetheless, there they are.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2007, 09:25:42 pm »
They have had guys like Backe and Sampson who have had their moments, but Oswalt has been the only mainstay.

Considering Sampson's first start was just a year ago, damn him for not establishing himself as a "mainstay" in less than one full year. 

damn him straight to wherever non-mainstay pitchers go, but you know who have had their moments.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2007, 09:44:32 am »
Williams complaining about Quintero was horseshit. Woody Williams with the stuff and command he has right now is not going to be successful regardless of who's catching. Turns out the belt high 86mph fastballs go just as far with Ausmus behind the plate. Even more frustrating was Williams intentionally drilling a guy with no one out in a tie game and Helton on deck.

Oswalt was an unbelievable find and no one can reasonably expect the organization to keep pumping out Oswalts. Maybe you can attribute a lot of it to bad luck and a lack of high draft picks, but the Astros have not developed anything close to a consistent major league starting pitcher since him. They have had guys like Backe and Sampson who have had their moments, but Oswalt has been the only mainstay.

This has nothing to do with Ausmus' ability to handle himself behind the plate. The "Ausmus is so valuable with the young starters" argument doesn't have much merit when the young starters have been terrible in the last several years. How much credit can you really give Ausmus for developing Oswalt?

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2007, 10:01:03 am »
one consistent thing about the TZ is stubby's bitching when things are not going well.

Jim, people will come Jim. They'll come to the Talk Zone for reasons they can't even fathom. They'll click your links not knowing for sure why they're doing it. They'll arrive at the new topic link as innocent as children, longing for the past. Of course, we won't mind if you look around, you'll say. It's only going to cost your free time. They'll pass over their free time without even thinking about it: for it is free time they have and peace they lack. And they'll wander over to the columns; sit in shirtsleeves on a perfect afternoon in front of their monitors. They'll find they have opinions so far on of the side of wrong, that their thought processes haven't advanced since they were children and they cheered their heroes. And they'll read the TZ, and it'll be as if they dipped themselves in magic waters. The complaints will be so thick they'll have to brush them away from their faces. People will come Jim. The one constant through all the years, Jim, has been bitching. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But bitching has marked the time. This site, this forum: it's a part of our past, Jim. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again. Oh... people will come Jim. People will most definitely come.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2007, 10:02:28 am »
Jim, people will come Jim. They'll come to the Talk Zone for reasons they can't even fathom. They'll click your links not knowing for sure why they're doing it. They'll arrive at the new topic link as innocent as children, longing for the past. Of course, we won't mind if you look around, you'll say. It's only going to cost your free time. They'll pass over their free time without even thinking about it: for it is free time they have and peace they lack. And they'll wander over to the columns; sit in shirtsleeves on a perfect afternoon in front of their monitors. They'll find they have opinions so far on of the side of wrong, that their thought processes haven't advanced since they were children and they cheered their heroes. And they'll read the TZ, and it'll be as if they dipped themselves in magic waters. The complaints will be so thick they'll have to brush them away from their faces. People will come Jim. The one constant through all the years, Jim, has been bitching. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But bitching has marked the time. This site, this forum: it's a part of our past, Jim. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again. Oh... people will come Jim. People will most definitely come.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #39 on: June 11, 2007, 10:09:37 am »
You're all over the place here.  Who has Quintero caught after he stopped catching Williams?  You say that we can't expect the Astros to produce Oswalts on an assembly line, but you use him to measure their minor league system.   I'm not an expert on the Astros minors but seems to me, Lidge and Qualls arent bad products.  Also, it's easy to dismiss the injuries. Nonetheless, there they are.

I think you're trying your best to misinterpret me here. I am not using Oswalt as a measuring stick for the minor league system. You can include Oswalt. The organization has produced 1 starting pitcher since the start of the 2001 season and have not produced any since the start of the 2002 season. Along the way have come Tim Redding, Carlos Hernandez (granted, very bad luck here), Ezequiel Astacio, Rodrigo Rosario, Jeriome Robertson, Taylor Buchholz, etc. It's very telling when you have to start pointing to injury prone back of the rotation starters that were developed in another organization as pitchers we have developed. Or a guy with a career ERA in the mid 5s.

But we've travelled down a road now I didn't intend to with this discussion. Redding was a bad example because Redding was a huge disappointment.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2007, 10:19:21 am »
I think you're trying your best to misinterpret me here. I am not using Oswalt as a measuring stick for the minor league system. You can include Oswalt. The organization has produced 1 starting pitcher since the start of the 2001 season and have not produced any since the start of the 2002 season. Along the way have come Tim Redding, Carlos Hernandez (granted, very bad luck here), Ezequiel Astacio, Rodrigo Rosario, Jeriome Robertson, Taylor Buchholz, etc. It's very telling when you have to start pointing to injury prone back of the rotation starters that were developed in another organization as pitchers we have developed. Or a guy with a career ERA in the mid 5s.

But we've travelled down a road now I didn't intend to with this discussion. Redding was a bad example because Redding was a huge disappointment.

Astacio and Buchholz? Phillies

Lidge and Qualls were very good starters who were moved into relief roles. Hernandez was very good also. Wandy did well in the minors and has had his moments in MLB.

the idea is to develop good pitchers, then find their proper roles.

what is the correct number for an organization that satisfies your expectations?
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2007, 10:21:06 am »
I think you're trying your best to misinterpret me here. I am not using Oswalt as a measuring stick for the minor league system. You can include Oswalt. The organization has produced 1 starting pitcher since the start of the 2001 season and have not produced any since the start of the 2002 season. Along the way have come Tim Redding, Carlos Hernandez (granted, very bad luck here), Ezequiel Astacio, Rodrigo Rosario, Jeriome Robertson, Taylor Buchholz, etc. It's very telling when you have to start pointing to injury prone back of the rotation starters that were developed in another organization as pitchers we have developed. Or a guy with a career ERA in the mid 5s.

But we've travelled down a road now I didn't intend to with this discussion. Redding was a bad example because Redding was a huge disappointment.

Are we still talking about whether the org has been trying for years to find someone to replace Ausmus? I am so unbelievably fucking confused right now.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2007, 10:24:41 am »
Are we still talking about whether the org has been trying for years to find someone to replace Ausmus? I am so unbelievably fucking confused right now.

I think the organization knows it can not replace Ausmus.  It's a lot of the fans that have not realized it.  I also think the organization also knows that Ausmus is aging and can not continue to catch as many games as he has been in the past.  I just don't think they know what to look for now.  Offense or defense?
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2007, 10:30:02 am »
I think you're trying your best to misinterpret me here. I am not using Oswalt as a measuring stick for the minor league system. You can include Oswalt. The organization has produced 1 starting pitcher since the start of the 2001 season and have not produced any since the start of the 2002 season. Along the way have come Tim Redding, Carlos Hernandez (granted, very bad luck here), Ezequiel Astacio, Rodrigo Rosario, Jeriome Robertson, Taylor Buchholz, etc. It's very telling when you have to start pointing to injury prone back of the rotation starters that were developed in another organization as pitchers we have developed. Or a guy with a career ERA in the mid 5s.

But we've travelled down a road now I didn't intend to with this discussion. Redding was a bad example because Redding was a huge disappointment.

Alright then, since your expectations aren't that the Astros crank out Oswalt type pitchers.  How about Wade Miller, 92 starts 2000-2004, Wandy Rodriguez 58 starts since 05, Backe 25 starts in 05, Carlos Hernandez started 37 games for the Astros. Then there's Scott Linebrink, Kirk Saarloos, Jason Hirsh, Scott Elarton has 167 starts in the majors.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2007, 10:30:47 am »
I think the organization knows it can not replace Ausmus.  It's a lot of the fans that have not realized it.  I also think the organization also knows that Ausmus is aging and can not continue to catch as many games as he has been in the past.  I just don't think they know what to look for now.  Offense or defense?

Also, they never tried to replace him.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2007, 10:31:57 am »
I think the organization knows it can not replace Ausmus.  It's a lot of the fans that have not realized it.  I also think the organization also knows that Ausmus is aging and can not continue to catch as many games as he has been in the past.  I just don't think they know what to look for now.  Offense or defense?

of course, the organization can replace him. he is in decline. it just does not want to because he still can help, and the club is willing to sacrifice offense for defense. Ausmus and Matheny were in a class by themselves.

Munson has improved tremendously, imo.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2007, 10:33:36 am by Jim R »
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2007, 10:35:48 am »
Astacio and Buchholz? Phillies

Lidge and Qualls were very good starters who were moved into relief roles. Hernandez was very good also. Wandy did well in the minors and has had his moments in MLB.

the idea is to develop good pitchers, then find their proper roles.

what is the correct number for an organization that satisfies your expectations?

Ok enough. This discussion has strayed way too far from where it started.

The Astros have been very good at developing relievers. They have gone from Wagner, to Dotel, to Lidge without losing anything. Qualls might be the next in line, but that's not the point.

My original post....It's no secret that the Astros are looking for help at catcher. Maybe that has something to do with Ausmus' back. It probably has more to do with finding a catcher for next year and the year after that and the year after that.

Tim Redding was a bad example.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2007, 10:37:33 am »
Plus- Jeroime "15 game winner" brought Wily T and Luke Scott. Wily T and Hirsh (a homegrown guy) netted Jennings- Alkie's favorite #2 pitcher ever.  That is useful in and of itself.


Your standards are too high if you say the astros can't be credited for developing young pitchers this century.


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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #48 on: June 11, 2007, 10:38:12 am »
Ok enough. This discussion has strayed way too far from where it started.

The Astros have been very good at developing relievers. They have gone from Wagner, to Dotel, to Lidge without losing anything. Qualls might be the next in line, but that's not the point.

My original post....It's no secret that the Astros are looking for help at catcher. Maybe that has something to do with Ausmus' back. It probably has more to do with finding a catcher for next year and the year after that and the year after that.

Tim Redding was a bad example.

they do not develop "relievers." they develop pitchers, then find roles for them.

when any player is nearly 40, it is no secret that the team wants and needs to groom/find a replacement.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #49 on: June 11, 2007, 10:44:21 am »
of course, the organization can replace him. he is in decline. it just does not want to because he still can help, and the club is willing to sacrifice offense for defense. Ausmus and Matheny were in a class by themselves.

Munson has improved tremendously, imo.

Ausmus' contract ends this year, right?  Is there any chance he'd be back, as either backup catcher, pitching coach, or manager?  He is still a valuable asset even if he can't play anymore.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #50 on: June 11, 2007, 10:46:04 am »
Ok enough. This discussion has strayed way too far from where it started. ...



It started by saying that the catching job, has been "there for the taking" for the past three years.  That is completely wrong.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #51 on: June 11, 2007, 10:46:12 am »
of course, the organization can replace him. he is in decline. it just does not want to because he still can help, and the club is willing to sacrifice offense for defense. Ausmus and Matheny were in a class by themselves.

Munson has improved tremendously, imo.

that class of Ausmus and Matheny is what I meant by not being replaced.  Someone else will eventually play in that position, but those catchers have talents that are not necessarily replaced.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #52 on: June 11, 2007, 10:57:22 am »
Why does he think no other team knows he's on waivers?

The Astros used double-secret waivers.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #53 on: June 11, 2007, 11:00:53 am »
ARSDFGHWEGTWED.
Is this just frustrated mashing on the keyboard, or does it stand for something really clever?
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #54 on: June 11, 2007, 11:07:10 am »
Is this just frustrated mashing on the keyboard, or does it stand for something really clever?

it is Pope-code. figure it out and you'll be one.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #55 on: June 11, 2007, 11:08:26 am »
It started by saying that the catching job, has been "there for the taking" for the past three years.  That is completely wrong.

Are you saying you don't think Quintero, Chavez or Munson would've been given the majority of the playing time in 2005 - 2007 if they had proved to be significantly better hitters than Ausmus?  I think Purpura likes what Ausmus brings to the team and has planned for the rest of the lineup to be productive enough not to need more offense from the catcher.  But the offense has struggled for long stretches in all of those years.  Out of sheer desperation I think Gar would've gone with another catcher if one of those guys was really hitting.  Maybe that wouldn't have changed Purpura's strategy in the long run, but it probably would've at least gotten some team to claim Quintero off the waiver wire.  Which is a long way of saying if Quintero didn't suck he'd have a major league job, so he shouldn't be whining.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #56 on: June 11, 2007, 11:13:38 am »
Are you saying you don't think Quintero, Chavez or Munson would've been given the majority of the playing time in 2005 - 2007 if they had proved to be significantly better hitters than Ausmus?  I think Purpura likes what Ausmus brings to the team and has planned for the rest of the lineup to be productive enough not to need more offense from the catcher.  But the offense has struggled for long stretches in all of those years.  Out of sheer desperation I think Gar would've gone with another catcher if one of those guys was really hitting.  Maybe that wouldn't have changed Purpura's strategy in the long run, but it probably would've at least gotten some team to claim Quintero off the waiver wire.  Which is a long way of saying if Quintero didn't suck he'd have a major league job, so he shouldn't be whining.

I'm saying that the Astros neither signed as free agents nor traded for any catcher that they thought would be a better fit at catcher for the Astros.  Are you seriously speculating that the Astros had any expectation that any of the catchers you've named, or any other catcher the Astros have had while Ausmus has been their catcher, had the ability to hit in the middle of the lineup?  Or were slotted for anything other than backup while Ausmus was on the team?  The Astros offensive problems have never had anything to do with Ausmus, which is why the Astros have never made any attempt to replace him. 
« Last Edit: June 11, 2007, 11:20:26 am by pravata »

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #57 on: June 11, 2007, 11:15:12 am »
The Astros offensive problems have never had anything to do with Ausmus, which is why the Astros have never made any attempt to replace him. 

So many people never understand this.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #58 on: June 11, 2007, 11:16:23 am »
So many people never understand this.

I think they just stick their fingers in their ears and go "LALALALALALALALA" real loud.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #59 on: June 11, 2007, 11:16:54 am »
Are you saying you don't think Quintero, Chavez or Munson would've been given the majority of the playing time in 2005 - 2007 if they had proved to be significantly better hitters than Ausmus? 

this one statement demonstrates to me that either you to not listen or you do not understand.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #60 on: June 11, 2007, 11:17:09 am »
Are you saying you don't think Quintero, Chavez or Munson would've been given the majority of the playing time in 2005 - 2007 if they had proved to be significantly better hitters than Ausmus?

I'd say that, yes. I believe there are at least 3 fairly high profile pitchers who would've been insistent on Ausmus catching them, even if the alternatives were batting .300. I don't think the club has spent the last few years looking for a hitting threat in the #8 hole. I think the organization looked for consistency and power at #5 and #6, and something at the top of the lineup. And I think they've been very, very happy running Ausmus out there as many times a week as he's been able.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #61 on: June 11, 2007, 11:18:16 am »
I'd say that, yes. I believe there are at least 3 fairly high profile pitchers who would've been insistent on Ausmus catching them, even if the alternatives were batting .300. I don't think the club has spent the last few years looking for a hitting threat in the #8 hole. I think the organization looked for consistency and power at #5 and #6, and something at the top of the lineup. And I think they've been very, very happy running Ausmus out there as many times a week as he's been able.

it blows me away that people who claim to be fans do not understand this.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #62 on: June 11, 2007, 11:36:50 am »
it blows me away that people who claim to be fans do not understand this.

exactly.  to not be able to appreciate what ausmus does is to not be a real fan of the team, because you're denying the contributions of one of the best players in franchise history.  it confounds me that somebody who calls themselves a fan could think this way.  that's not to say you're not enthusiastic about the team, or that you don't watch the games and cheer a lot, but to not be able to see and fully appreciate what he did that year with redding, or every year with lidge, or every game he catches really is to choose to be an idiot.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #63 on: June 11, 2007, 11:47:19 am »
I think that there is some truth to the statement that for the last three (at least 2) years the astros have been looking to give some of ausmus playing time away. Phil has made statements back to at least last spring training that they'd like to find someone that could catch one for sure and maybe 2 guys regularly. I think the org would have liked for closer to a 70/30 situation for a couple years now, but instead ausmus damn near leads the league in games caught year in and year out.  Nobody has stepped up and took that more regular work that is there for the taking (after all Brad is damn near 40).




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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #64 on: June 11, 2007, 11:58:40 am »
I think that there is some truth to the statement that for the last three (at least 2) years the astros have been looking to give some of ausmus playing time away. Phil has made statements back to at least last spring training that they'd like to find someone that could catch one for sure and maybe 2 guys regularly. I think the org would have liked for closer to a 70/30 situation for a couple years now, but instead ausmus damn near leads the league in games caught year in and year out.  Nobody has stepped up and took that more regular work that is there for the taking (after all Brad is damn near 40).

No doubt the club would have been pleased to find someone to have taken more of the burden. I just think it's thoroughly wrong to believe that the majority of playing time at catcher has been up for grabs.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #65 on: June 11, 2007, 12:06:46 pm »
I think that there is some truth to the statement that for the last three (at least 2) years the astros have been looking to give some of ausmus playing time away. Phil has made statements back to at least last spring training that they'd like to find someone that could catch one for sure and maybe 2 guys regularly. I think the org would have liked for closer to a 70/30 situation for a couple years now, but instead ausmus damn near leads the league in games caught year in and year out.  Nobody has stepped up and took that more regular work that is there for the taking (after all Brad is damn near 40).





They weren't looking very hard.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #66 on: June 11, 2007, 12:12:02 pm »
exactly.  to not be able to appreciate what ausmus does is to not be a real fan of the team, because you're denying the contributions of one of the best players in franchise history.  it confounds me that somebody who calls themselves a fan could think this way.  that's not to say you're not enthusiastic about the team, or that you don't watch the games and cheer a lot, but to not be able to see and fully appreciate what he did that year with redding, or every year with lidge, or every game he catches really is to choose to be an idiot.

I do appreciate what Ausmus brings to the team.  But I also think that due to the offensive failures of others over the last 2+ years, if one of the backup catchers had stepped up and shown themselves to be a productive offensive player, Garner would've had to take advantage of it.  Maybe a "majority of the playing time" was overstating it a bit.  But I definitely believe there was an opportunity there for one of the backups to improve their standing in the organization quite a bit and none of them grabbed it.  Maybe Munson will this year.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #67 on: June 11, 2007, 12:14:07 pm »
I do appreciate what Ausmus brings to the team.  But I also think that due to the offensive failures of others over the last 2+ years, if one of the backup catchers had stepped up and shown themselves to be a productive offensive player, Garner would've had to take advantage of it.  Maybe a "majority of the playing time" was overstating it a bit.  But I definitely believe there was an opportunity there for one of the backups to improve their standing in the organization quite a bit and none of them grabbed it.  Maybe Munson will this year.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #68 on: June 11, 2007, 12:20:46 pm »
exactly.  to not be able to appreciate what ausmus does is to not be a real fan of the team, because you're denying the contributions of one of the best players in franchise history.  it confounds me that somebody who calls themselves a fan could think this way.  that's not to say you're not enthusiastic about the team, or that you don't watch the games and cheer a lot, but to not be able to see and fully appreciate what he did that year with redding, or every year with lidge, or every game he catches really is to choose to be an idiot.

not just fans of the Astros--fans of the game of baseball. poster after poster just does not understand the importance of defense at C, SS and CF.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #69 on: June 11, 2007, 12:27:23 pm »
not just fans of the Astros--fans of the game of baseball. poster after poster just does not understand the importance of defense at C, SS and CF.

It's only going to get worse.  Hitting taters is all that matters on ESPN.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #70 on: June 11, 2007, 12:29:47 pm »
not just fans of the Astros--fans of the game of baseball. poster after poster just does not understand the importance of defense at C, SS and CF.

On a somewhat related note, many people do not understand that very, very few teams get consistent production 1-8 in the lineup.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #71 on: June 11, 2007, 12:31:39 pm »
They weren't looking very hard.

no- you are right. More of an approach that if this guy surprises us we'd like to give him more time from Brad. Not a "lets make this a priority to find a guy we're comfortable giving brad's time to.


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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #72 on: June 11, 2007, 12:34:31 pm »
no- you are right. More of an approach that if this guy surprises us we'd like to give him more time from Brad. Not a "lets make this a priority to find a guy we're comfortable giving brad's time to.



The one guy they had, John Buck, they traded.  Of course they traded him for Carlos Beltran, still.  There have been several FA catchers who were better hitters than Ausmus in the last 5 years, I don't think they made an offer to any.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #73 on: June 11, 2007, 12:35:11 pm »
On a somewhat related note, many people do not understand that very, very few teams get consistent production 1-8 in the lineup.

I like when people complain that the Astros have an "automatic out" in the 9 spot.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #74 on: June 11, 2007, 12:45:57 pm »
I like when people complain that the Astros have an "automatic out" in the 9 spot.

Damn those pitchers, working on their pitching instead of the important stuff.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #75 on: June 11, 2007, 12:46:17 pm »
I think that there is some truth to the statement that for the last three (at least 2) years the astros have been looking to give some of ausmus playing time away.

I was under the impression that the org is more worried about Ausums wearing down and being worn out at the end of the year then trying to find a replacement for Ausmus.  They want a compotent backup that can give Ausmus some rest.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #76 on: June 11, 2007, 12:54:08 pm »
I was under the impression that the org is more worried about Ausums wearing down and being worn out at the end of the year then trying to find a replacement for Ausmus.  They want a compotent backup that can give Ausmus some rest.

Sure- meaning if anyone had stepped up and took charge Ausmus would not lead the majors in games caught. Nobody has so he does.


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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #77 on: June 11, 2007, 01:00:34 pm »
not just fans of the Astros--fans of the game of baseball. poster after poster just does not understand the importance of defense at C, SS and CF.

I blame ESPN, fantasy baseball, and "Moneyball."

It's much the same way that many football fans (and alleged "analysts") will rail endlessly about an offense's skill players, without so much as mentioning the quality of the OL.

If there ain't a marketable stat for it, then people who don't really understand the game will miss it.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #78 on: June 11, 2007, 01:18:24 pm »
I do appreciate what Ausmus brings to the team.  But I also think that due to the offensive failures of others over the last 2+ years, if one of the backup catchers had stepped up and shown themselves to be a productive offensive player, Garner would've had to take advantage of it.  Maybe a "majority of the playing time" was overstating it a bit.  But I definitely believe there was an opportunity there for one of the backups to improve their standing in the organization quite a bit and none of them grabbed it.  Maybe Munson will this year.
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When you find him it won't say this outright but Astros fans, players, and front office people learned a valuable lesson from replacing defense at C with offense. And Lima Time has never been the same.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #79 on: June 11, 2007, 01:19:06 pm »
It's only going to get worse.  Hitting taters is all that matters on ESPN.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #80 on: June 11, 2007, 01:27:47 pm »
Well, I believe this is the third year in a row that Gar has tried giving backup catchers more playing time in a desperate search for offense.  If any of them had hit well, Ausmus may have been relegated to backup.  Hell, they even claimed Munson basically from the scrap heap and moved him back to a position he hadn't played since college, hoping to find a catcher that can hit.

Jim yesterday said this was "nine kinds of wrong."  Here you go:

1.  I believe this is the third year in a row
Raul Chavez was the backup catcher in '04 and '05.  Before Chavez, there was Gregg Zaun, who slugged .400 last year with Toronto with more playing time.  Why would the Astros cut Zaun in favor of a guy like Chavez?

2. that Gar has tried giving backup catchers more playing time

Chavez's games played went down from 64 to 37 in Garner's first full year as manager, and probably went down substantially after Jimy got fired in '04.  Ausmus was at the top of league in games caught last year.

3.  in a desperate search.
If the search was really so "desperate" then there probably would have been more turnover than three backups in 3 1/2 years (Chavez, Quintero, Munson).  A desperate move would be something like moving Mike Lamb to catcher.

4.  for offense
Being that Munson is a better offensive catcher than Quintero, and that Quintero is the superior defensive catcher, it would seem that the team isn't primarily looking for offense from their catchers because they demoted Munson and promoted Quintero in-season last year.  Munson wasn't even really considered to make the team out of spring training this year, but has been promoted since he improved his defense.  Also, Gimenez had a pretty good offensive year at Round Rock in '06, but Quintero got the promotion.

5.  If any of them had hit well
While none of these three backups have "hit well," clearly getting them to "hit well" has not been a priority of Garner's because he plays them once every five days and rarely gives them opportunities to pinch hit.  If he was really looking for a catcher to "hit well," he would have played them in such a way as to make them more able to get in an offensive rhythm.

6. Ausmus may have been relegated to backup.

No way he would have been a backup, if for no other reason than Oswalt, Clemens, Pettite, and now Woody have made it clear they want him to catch for them.

7. they even claimed Munson basically from the scrap heap

Munson signed as a non-roster invitee.  He was a 28 year-old free agent.  While being released by the Devil Rays is not exactly something to be proud of, he was recently a first round pick and top prospect.

8.  and moved him back to a position

With Lance Berkman and possibly Bagwell entrenched at first base, Munson moved to catcher because he and the club knew it was pretty much his only chance of making the team.  Him making the team was probably the biggest surprise of last year's camp.

9.  hoping to find a catcher that can hit.

Again, as has been shown previously, if "hoping to find a catcher that can hit" was their motivation then they would have signed one in the offseason. 

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #81 on: June 11, 2007, 01:35:09 pm »
Damn those pitchers, working on their pitching instead of the important stuff.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #82 on: June 11, 2007, 01:59:38 pm »
I blame almost everything on Garner but, Garner can't be blamed for not playing Chavez as he hit no better than a tired Ausmus and couldn't think as well.  Garner can't be blamed for not playing Munson last year as Munson just didn't have the experience to makeup for a staff so dependant on the catcher.  With the injury to Gimenez, they at least gave Munson time at AAA to learn to catch again without MLB pressure.  I doubt Woody will be better without Q, but Munson should provide enough to get Ausmus some rest.

Q can throw and could hit with enough at bats, but he can't meet the expectations of the starting pitchers so dependant on Ausmus.  Their pitching would be better if they learned to pitch themselves and didn't rely on the catcher.  Then they could succeed pitching to young catchers (Q, Gimenez, Chavez) or new cathcers (Munson). 

If Munson can prove to catch decent and hit some, he could be the main guy next year.  (Gimenez should have been the guy without the injury.)  If Munson can't do it, they will have to keep Ausmus (again) or go outside to get someone until one of the young guys is ready.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #83 on: June 11, 2007, 02:04:40 pm »
I blame almost everything on Garner but, Garner can't be blamed for not playing Chavez as he hit no better than a tired Ausmus and couldn't think as well.  Garner can't be blamed for not playing Munson last year as Munson just didn't have the experience to makeup for a staff so dependant on the catcher.  With the injury to Gimenez, they at least gave Munson time at AAA to learn to catch again without MLB pressure.  I doubt Woody will be better without Q, but Munson should provide enough to get Ausmus some rest.

Q can throw and could hit with enough at bats, but he can't meet the expectations of the starting pitchers so dependant on Ausmus.  Their pitching would be better if they learned to pitch themselves and didn't rely on the catcher.  Then they could succeed pitching to young catchers (Q, Gimenez, Chavez) or new cathcers (Munson). 

If Munson can prove to catch decent and hit some, he could be the main guy next year.  (Gimenez should have been the guy without the injury.)  If Munson can't do it, they will have to keep Ausmus (again) or go outside to get someone until one of the young guys is ready.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #84 on: June 11, 2007, 02:04:41 pm »
Their pitching would be better if they learned to pitch themselves and didn't rely on the catcher.

This, in particular, is especially ignorant.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #85 on: June 11, 2007, 02:06:19 pm »
This, in particular, is especially ignorant.

i hope he had to work at being that stupid.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #86 on: June 11, 2007, 02:06:33 pm »
This, in particular, is especially ignorant.

They would have to throw yo-yos.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #87 on: June 11, 2007, 02:17:50 pm »
I blame almost everything on Garner but, Garner can't be blamed for not playing Chavez as he hit no better than a tired Ausmus and couldn't think as well. 

whew, i bet garner is glad to know that he escaped your wrath on that one.

Quote
Their pitching would be better if they learned to pitch themselves and didn't rely on the catcher.  Then they could succeed pitching to young catchers (Q, Gimenez, Chavez) or new cathcers (Munson). 

you should tell them that.  i'm sure the astros would appreciate such an insight.  seriously.

Edit: Damnit, refresh before posting.  Refresh.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #88 on: June 11, 2007, 02:24:52 pm »
CDLB

Am I focusing too much on work today?  I missed the meaning of this.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #89 on: June 11, 2007, 02:27:08 pm »
I blame almost everything on Garner... etc etc etc

I started typing a bunch of words, then realized I was wasting my time (even more so than usual.) Let's leave it at this - because of you, somewhere at this very instant, poor Cecil Cooper is embarrassed without even knowing why.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #90 on: June 11, 2007, 02:27:48 pm »
Am I focusing too much on work today?  I missed the meaning of this.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #91 on: June 11, 2007, 02:58:18 pm »
it is Pope-code. figure it out and you'll be one.
Oh cool, another OWA contest. Let's see...ARSDFGHWEGTWED.
Ausmus
Really
Sure
Does
Frustrate
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Expect
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Excellent
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?
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #92 on: June 11, 2007, 02:59:32 pm »
Oh cool, another OWA contest. Let's see...ARSDFGHWEGTWED.
Ausmus
Really
Sure
Does
Frustrate
Grumpy
Houstonians
Who
Expect
Great
Thunder
Without
Excellent
Defense
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Contest OVER!
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #93 on: June 11, 2007, 03:54:38 pm »
Shortest.  Contest.  Ever.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #94 on: June 11, 2007, 04:03:12 pm »
Shortest.  Contest.  Ever.

I believe there was a trivia contest won in only a few seconds.  It's in the HoF archives somewhere.

ETA:  It's in the 1999 HoF, and goes thusly:

Quote
FASTEST ENDING TO A TRIVIA CONTEST IN TZ HISTORY

Edwards

Andyzipp set an all-time record for trivia question futility when Edwards swept in and busted the ass of the following question in less than one minute ...

Andyzipp (11:32 a.m.): "What pitcher went 6 years between his Major League debut and his second appearance in the Show. He was 21 when he made his reemergence... "

Edwards (11:32 a.m.): "Joe Nuxall in the 1940s."

Andyzipp: "Damn!"
« Last Edit: June 11, 2007, 04:08:32 pm by Limey »
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #95 on: June 12, 2007, 01:33:21 am »
Contest OVER!
So...for the official OWA Pope Tote Bag, do I get my choice of colors, or do I automatically get the shit brown scheme?
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #96 on: June 12, 2007, 07:35:48 am »
This Chart shows Ausmus as the best hitting #8 hitter, with a minimum of 100 PA

Its worth noting 4 of the 7 on the list of people with 100 PA batting 8th are catchers.

Even if you back it down to 75PA, he's still 2nd. And 2/3 of the people w/ 75 PA at #8 in the line up are catchers or SS.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #97 on: June 12, 2007, 10:34:21 am »
This Chart shows Ausmus as the best hitting #8 hitter, with a minimum of 100 PA

Its worth noting 4 of the 7 on the list of people with 100 PA batting 8th are catchers.

Even if you back it down to 75PA, he's still 2nd. And 2/3 of the people w/ 75 PA at #8 in the line up are catchers or SS.

And if you go with OPS, the favorite stat of those who feel they need a *true* indicator of offensive prowess, then he's still #2 in the list.  Outstanding research Phil.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #98 on: June 12, 2007, 11:02:20 am »
And if you go with OPS, the favorite stat of those who feel they need a *true* indicator of offensive prowess,

trying to provoke me, Noe?
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #99 on: June 12, 2007, 11:08:26 am »
trying to provoke me, Noe?
Nah, he would have used VORP for that.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #100 on: June 12, 2007, 11:09:49 am »
Nah, he would have used VORP for that.

Or CERA.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #101 on: June 12, 2007, 11:10:28 am »
And if you go with OPS, the favorite stat of those who feel they need a *true* indicator of offensive prowess, then he's still #2 in the list.  Outstanding research Phil.

And, if you watch the game, you'd see that Bradley had the best approach of anyone the last two games.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #102 on: June 12, 2007, 11:13:16 am »
And, if you watch the game, you'd see that Bradley had the best approach of anyone the last two games.

Says a lot more about the rest of the lineup.

St. Biggio is inching towad "Mays with the Mets" territory.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #103 on: June 12, 2007, 11:13:25 am »
And, if you watch the game, you'd see that Bradley had the best approach of anyone the last two games.

For the most part, this team seems to have decided that, because no one's hitting, they each must hit a solo homer every at bat.  Hence no one's hitting.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #104 on: June 12, 2007, 11:16:16 am »
Says a lot more about the rest of the lineup.

...

I didn't mean it as faint praise.  Ausmus had especially good atbats on Sunday.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #105 on: June 12, 2007, 11:16:28 am »
For the most part, this team seems to have decided that, because no one's hitting, they each must hit a solo homer every at bat.  Hence no one's hitting.

God knows they couldn't hit any non-solo homers.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #106 on: June 12, 2007, 11:17:32 am »
I didn't mean it as faint praise.  Ausmus had especially good atbats on Sunday.

I'm not disagreeing.  I'm just seeing the glass half empty.

RF or 3b - upgrade one of the two.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #107 on: June 12, 2007, 11:21:24 am »
I'm not disagreeing.  I'm just seeing the glass half empty.

RF or 3b - upgrade one of the two.

That was Purpura's gamble, one of the two spots would produce.  Neither has.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #108 on: June 12, 2007, 11:24:24 am »
I'm not disagreeing.  I'm just seeing the glass half empty.

RF or 3b - upgrade one of the two.

RF may be on the way to upgrading itself... If he can just stay on the field Scott is hitting at about a .400 pace for the past 7 games...

3B just seems to be a growing blackhole... Ensberg is still imitating a Hoover and since Lamb and Loretta were charged with helping out they've fallen off a cliff...
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #109 on: June 12, 2007, 11:50:13 am »
RF may be on the way to upgrading itself... If he can just stay on the field Scott is hitting at about a .400 pace for the past 7 games...

3B just seems to be a growing blackhole... Ensberg is still imitating a Hoover and since Lamb and Loretta were charged with helping out they've fallen off a cliff...

Loretta produces as a 2 hole hitter, but is miscast as a #5.  But that means Pence would need to produce in a 5 or 6 hole situation.  I think he is seen as a top of the lineup, or even the all important #3 hitter.  I agree with what you said about Luke Scott.  If he can stay healthy, he can help.  But if they're going to use Loretta, they need to make a decision on what he can do to help.  Middle of the lineup doesn't seem to suit him at all.  I like his ability at #2, but anywhere else, including leadoff... well, it just doesn't seem to work out well at all.

I think they need a 3rd baseman that can hit in the five hole and maybe hit Pence leadoff for a while to see if he can handle it.  At least that is what it looks like from my couch... but what do I know?  Nothing, that's what.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #110 on: June 12, 2007, 12:00:56 pm »
God knows they couldn't hit any non-solo homers.

Chicken-egg.  If they all hit solo homers, or not at all, there's never anyone on base in front of anyone else to ride home on a non-solo dinger.  QED.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #111 on: June 12, 2007, 12:02:47 pm »
That was Purpura's gamble, one of the two spots would produce.  Neither has.

He also didn't expect Berkman to tank, Biggio to be this bad and Burke to be demotion-worthy.  He may also have expected something from Lane.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #112 on: June 12, 2007, 12:06:41 pm »
He also didn't expect Berkman to tank, Biggio to be this bad and Burke to be demotion-worthy.  He may also have expected something from Lane.

Biggio was not unforseeable, and anything from Lane was going to be a bonus.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #113 on: June 12, 2007, 12:10:50 pm »
Biggio was not unforseeable, and anything from Lane was going to be a bonus.

Biggio being this bad was unforeseeable.  He's 60 points off his career average and 30 points below last year's sub-par effort.  If he carries on like this his stats will converge at their vanishing point before he gets to #3,000!!!
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #114 on: June 12, 2007, 12:26:31 pm »
Play Scott every day when healthy.  I think he will produce.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #115 on: June 12, 2007, 03:19:33 pm »
Says a lot more about the rest of the lineup.

St. Biggio is inching towad "Mays with the Mets" territory.

I've thought about Biggio and Mays along those same lines recently.  I recall seeing Mays at the plate with no chance was not a pretty sight.  Seeing some of Craig's at bats this last month or so have made me wince.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #116 on: June 12, 2007, 04:17:38 pm »
I've thought about Biggio and Mays along those same lines recently.  I recall seeing Mays at the plate with no chance was not a pretty sight.  Seeing some of Craig's at bats this last month or so have made me wince.

me, too. he is a lot worse lately than i thought he'd be. he's taking middle-in fastballs sometimes, too. why?
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #117 on: June 12, 2007, 04:43:03 pm »
me, too. he is a lot worse lately than i thought he'd be. he's taking middle-in fastballs sometimes, too. why?

Because he wasn't guessing fastball on that pitch.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #118 on: June 12, 2007, 04:45:47 pm »
Because he wasn't guessing fastball on that pitch.

some of them have been first pitches. no excuse for that.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #119 on: June 12, 2007, 10:47:42 pm »
some of them have been first pitches. no excuse for that.
Nice game by Bidge tonight, going the other way a couple times. Wonder if Pence will hit leadoff once Berkman comes back, maybe take a little pressure off Biggio?
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #120 on: June 12, 2007, 10:51:31 pm »
Nice game by Bidge tonight, going the other way a couple times. Wonder if Pence will hit leadoff once Berkman comes back, maybe take a little pressure off Biggio?

what pressure?
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #121 on: June 12, 2007, 10:57:46 pm »
what pressure?
The pressure that a 41-year old guy might feel when he is hitting .225 batting leadoff for an underpreforming team...oh and there's something else going on...what was it...

Seriously, I'm just remembering Garner's remark "I have a plan," upon moving Pence to #2 in the order. Then again, I'm not sure what to think after Biggio was moveed down to #6, then went right back to #1 after a game or so.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #122 on: June 13, 2007, 09:18:07 am »
The pressure that a 41-year old guy might feel when he is hitting .225 batting leadoff for an underpreforming team...oh and there's something else going on...what was it...

Seriously, I'm just remembering Garner's remark "I have a plan," upon moving Pence to #2 in the order. Then again, I'm not sure what to think after Biggio was moveed down to #6, then went right back to #1 after a game or so.

his plan does not have to do with easing the "pressure" on someone chasing a record. it is about scoring runs and winning games. you know, those secondary goals after 3000.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #123 on: June 13, 2007, 11:02:55 am »
his plan does not have to do with easing the "pressure" on someone chasing a record. it is about scoring runs and winning games. you know, those secondary goals after 3000.
Hey, I'm with you. Ok, so I wonder if Pence will hit leadoff once Berkman comes back, as that will probably give them a better chance to score runs and win games. But I probably already know the answer to that question.
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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #124 on: June 13, 2007, 11:12:32 am »
Hey, I'm with you. Ok, so I wonder if Pence will hit leadoff once Berkman comes back, as that will probably give them a better chance to score runs and win games. But I probably already know the answer to that question.

Pence is hitting 2nd because he'll get more fastballs.  And more strikes.  Of course the scout Brown cited last night said that's how you get Pence out, fastballs in.  I think Mark Kotsay's method of scouting by watching on the TV is better than this.  Pence is not a subtle or a patient hitter.  He's hitting 2 to put him in front of Berkman and Lee instead of Scott and Everett.  They could throw around him at 5, try to get him to chase, which he will. 

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #125 on: June 13, 2007, 11:20:44 am »
Pence is hitting 2nd because he'll get more fastballs.  And more strikes.  Of course the scout Brown cited last night said that's how you get Pence out, fastballs in.  I think Mark Kotsay's method of scouting by watching on the TV is better than this.  Pence is not a subtle or a patient hitter.  He's hitting 2 to put him in front of Berkman and Lee instead of Scott and Everett.  They could throw around him at 5, try to get him to chase, which he will. 

i did not understand the "pound him in" stuff. he pulls off the ball so much on his swing, why do they want to pitch him in?
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pravata

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #126 on: June 13, 2007, 11:21:32 am »
i did not understand the "pound him in" stuff. he pulls off the ball so much on his swing, why do they want to pitch him in?

Made me wonder about the scout.

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Re: Quintero outrighted to RR, McLemore up
« Reply #127 on: June 13, 2007, 11:28:57 am »
Pence is hitting 2nd because he'll get more fastballs.  And more strikes.  Of course the scout Brown cited last night said that's how you get Pence out, fastballs in.  I think Mark Kotsay's method of scouting by watching on the TV is better than this.  Pence is not a subtle or a patient hitter.  He's hitting 2 to put him in front of Berkman and Lee instead of Scott and Everett.  They could throw around him at 5, try to get him to chase, which he will. 
I can certainly see the logic there, I'm just not sure that it's not overidden by the logic of wanting a guy getting on base more in the leadoff spot. Then again, maybe the better solution would be something like:
Loretta
Pence
Berkman
Lee
Scott
Biggio
Everett
Ausmus
P

It's probably a moot point anyway, as Biggio has already demonstrated that he will bitch if he bats #6, and Gar has demonstrated that he will return Biggio to #1, I'm guessing out of respect.
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