Author Topic: Bud Norris profile  (Read 3261 times)

OregonStrosFan

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Bud Norris profile
« on: February 02, 2010, 11:50:38 pm »
By John Sickels at Minor League Ball.  LINK
In the end, my dissolution with the game of baseball will not be a result of any loss of love for the game, rather from the realization that I can no longer bear the anger its supposed stewards cause to be built up in my soul. -Lee (01/08/2013)

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Re: Bud Norris profile
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2010, 09:15:53 am »
By John Sickels at Minor League Ball.  LINK

Quote
His college performance was spotty: 4.55 ERA with a 61/57 K/BB in 111 innings with 118 hits allowed; the strikeout rate was quite low for a guy with good stuff (90-93 MPH, good breaking ball).

how common is something like this for a guy who turns out to be a good pro, particularly for a guy doesn't have such crazy stuff that you could chalk it up to wildness?

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Re: Bud Norris profile
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2010, 09:53:08 am »
He might not have been trusting his stuff.

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Re: Bud Norris profile
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2010, 10:32:11 am »
how common is something like this for a guy who turns out to be a good pro, particularly for a guy doesn't have such crazy stuff that you could chalk it up to wildness?

David Rawnsley explained this once in his site about scouting players (it no longer exist, but it was a great primer).  Basically, when a scout sees outstanding numbers or less than impressive numbers on a guy they're watching, they need to evaluate the league, the competition, the ballparks, et. al.  IOW - provide the context for the numbers.  Just looking at numbers will hurt you in terms of missing out on a really great pro or taking a flyer on a guy who is mashing or dominating but really turns out to be a really bad pro.

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Re: Bud Norris profile
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2010, 10:37:32 am »
He might not have been trusting his stuff.

I trust my stuff. My stuff doesn't trust me, though.
"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it." - Rogers Hornsby

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Re: Bud Norris profile
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2010, 11:14:34 am »
David Rawnsley explained this once in his site about scouting players (it no longer exist, but it was a great primer).  Basically, when a scout sees outstanding numbers or less than impressive numbers on a guy they're watching, they need to evaluate the league, the competition, the ballparks, et. al.  IOW - provide the context for the numbers.  Just looking at numbers will hurt you in terms of missing out on a really great pro or taking a flyer on a guy who is mashing or dominating but really turns out to be a really bad pro.

okay, but what's the context for a future major league starter with a low-90's fastball, pro-level slider, and no obvious control issues putting up a so-so ERA and poor strikeout numbers at a mid-level college baseball program?  i'm sure the opposite scenario is pretty common-- a guy puts up huge numbers in college and high school but doesn't have what it takes to succeed against higher level competition-- but the norris scenario would seem to be pretty rare without an obvious explanation like poor control, mechanics, or injury.  certainly the astros scouts had an explanation, or they wouldn't have spent a 6th round pick on him.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 11:16:15 am by Joey Trum »

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Re: Bud Norris profile
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2010, 12:14:07 pm »
okay, but what's the context for a future major league starter with a low-90's fastball, pro-level slider, and no obvious control issues putting up a so-so ERA and poor strikeout numbers at a mid-level college baseball program?  i'm sure the opposite scenario is pretty common-- a guy puts up huge numbers in college and high school but doesn't have what it takes to succeed against higher level competition-- but the norris scenario would seem to be pretty rare without an obvious explanation like poor control, mechanics, or injury.  certainly the astros scouts had an explanation, or they wouldn't have spent a 6th round pick on him.

The overly simple answer is metal bats.
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Re: Bud Norris profile
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2010, 12:34:20 pm »
okay, but what's the context for a future major league starter with a low-90's fastball, pro-level slider, and no obvious control issues putting up a so-so ERA and poor strikeout numbers at a mid-level college baseball program?  i'm sure the opposite scenario is pretty common-- a guy puts up huge numbers in college and high school but doesn't have what it takes to succeed against higher level competition-- but the norris scenario would seem to be pretty rare without an obvious explanation like poor control, mechanics, or injury.  certainly the astros scouts had an explanation, or they wouldn't have spent a 6th round pick on him.

You'd have to talk to a real pro scout, but here are some things to consider:

1. Body Build
2. Mechanics
3. Tools (in terms of fluid use thereof)
4. Judgement
5. Composure

You can probably add more, but it's not numbers that will make or break a pro player until they are actually in the pros.  There was a kid in the Houston organization that looked for all the world to be a potential pro player star.  The problem became injury and then work ethic to overcome said injury and also work ethic to improve.  I won't name the player because it's not really important at this point.  What I remember saying to self and friends at the Dell Diamond about this kid was "what a waste".  See he had all the potential in the world, so he had the first hurdle jumped... so the next thing that makes a pro out of a player is on the player himself, not the scout.

Work ethic and desire must take over (it's called player development in some circles, so the best organizations are judged not only by scouting but by player development as well).  That is why you need to have some sort of mitigation in scouting a player that will tell you if they possess the personal traits that tell you this kid will work hard and apply himself if we provide the framework for him to do so.

Houston does evaluate players on personal levels as a standard for scouting.

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Re: Bud Norris profile
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2010, 12:50:48 pm »
okay, but what's the context for a future major league starter with a low-90's fastball, pro-level slider, and no obvious control issues putting up a so-so ERA and poor strikeout numbers at a mid-level college baseball program?  i'm sure the opposite scenario is pretty common-- a guy puts up huge numbers in college and high school but doesn't have what it takes to succeed against higher level competition-- but the norris scenario would seem to be pretty rare without an obvious explanation like poor control, mechanics, or injury.  certainly the astros scouts had an explanation, or they wouldn't have spent a 6th round pick on him.

6th round pick puts him somewhere past 160 probably closer to 180th pick in the draft.  All the players wth good stuff and good results are probably gone at this point.

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Re: Bud Norris profile
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2010, 01:19:22 pm »
I won't name the player because it's not really important at this point.

cough..., Rosamond..., cough...
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Re: Bud Norris profile
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2010, 01:35:02 pm »
David Rawnsley explained this once in his site about scouting players (it no longer exist, but it was a great primer).  Basically, when a scout sees outstanding numbers or less than impressive numbers on a guy they're watching, they need to evaluate the league, the competition, the ballparks, et. al.  IOW - provide the context for the numbers.  Just looking at numbers will hurt you in terms of missing out on a really great pro or taking a flyer on a guy who is mashing or dominating but really turns out to be a really bad pro.

bottom line is scouts do not pay much attention to the numbers a guy has in amateur ball. they evaluate tools and project.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

Noe

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Re: Bud Norris profile
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2010, 01:40:43 pm »
bottom line is scouts do not pay much attention to the numbers a guy has in amateur ball. they evaluate tools and project.

See, I spend all that energy and bandwidth to say basically what you said in one sentence.  Word of caution, when you read an evaluation like Sickles and he pulls out *stats* to make a point, especially college or high school stats, then run away.  Run far away.

Noe

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Re: Bud Norris profile
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2010, 01:41:13 pm »
cough..., Rosamond..., cough...

"you feeling me?"

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Re: Bud Norris profile
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2010, 02:53:08 pm »
I trust my stuff. My stuff doesn't trust me, though.

It's not that your stuff doesn't trust you, it's that your stuff thinks you've been tipping your pitches and is very annoyed about it.
He breezed him, one more time!

JimR

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Re: Bud Norris profile
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2010, 02:55:24 pm »
See, I spend all that energy and bandwidth to say basically what you said in one sentence.  Word of caution, when you read an evaluation like Sickles and he pulls out *stats* to make a point, especially college or high school stats, then run away.  Run far away.

i forgot "makeup." tools, makeup and project.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

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Re: Bud Norris profile
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2010, 03:22:18 pm »
i forgot "makeup." tools, makeup and project.


Do MLB teams routinely "test" possible draftees like the NFL does or do they rely on interviews with coaches and the player?

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Re: Bud Norris profile
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2010, 03:57:28 pm »
i forgot "makeup." tools, makeup and project.

Yup, this is the part that mitigates whether the kid will flounder in the minors with all the rigors that comes with hard work and sometimes not seeing the results right away.  It take a mental toughness to not give up and believe you'll be fine once it comes around (in baseball, they call this "the light switch turns on").

Noe

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Re: Bud Norris profile
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2010, 04:01:25 pm »

Do MLB teams routinely "test" possible draftees like the NFL does or do they rely on interviews with coaches and the player?

I'm not sure if *all* MLB teams do research and interviews on potential draftees, but the Houston Astros do.  It's not the same as the NFL in the sense that it is about good citizenship, et. al.  It is about having a certain work ethic and mental toughness about you because baseball is the most unforgiving sport there is.  As it was once stated by Bart Giamati "Baseball is designed to break your heart".  For a player, it is doubly true.  If you're not mentally tough to see your way through the tough stretches you will have (not if you have them, you WILL have them), you will not make it.  Period.

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Re: Bud Norris profile
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2010, 04:14:01 pm »
i forgot "makeup." tools, makeup and project.

Do certain teams look harder at kids tied in with Avon or Mary Kay, or is the application technique more important than the actual product used?
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Re: Bud Norris profile
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2010, 04:22:07 pm »
Do certain teams look harder at kids tied in with Avon or Mary Kay, or is the application technique more important than the actual product used?

hardy har har
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Bud Norris profile
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2010, 09:39:19 am »
Berkman's makeup became his sobriquet.
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