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General Discussion => Talk Zone => Topic started by: Nate Colbert on November 19, 2018, 01:35:17 pm
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Along with holdovers Wagner/Kent/Clemens, Berkman/Oswalt/Pettitte on the newly-released HOF ballot (https://www.mlb.com/news/2019-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot/c-300872592).
One man's view of the debutantes:
Brian Kenny @ MrBrianKenny 1 hour ago
# HOF ballot: Very Good Debut Class. Easy Yes: Rivera, Halladay. Probably: Helton, Berkman. To be studied: Pettitte, Oswalt.
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I have no idea how Berkman is/was viewed nationally.
I do know I absolutely loved watching his ABs, especially from the left side of the plate.
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I have no idea how Berkman is/was viewed nationally.
I do know I absolutely loved watching his ABs, especially from the left side of the plate.
I think LHed Berkman had the prettiest swing of any long-term Astros player.
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Along with holdovers Wagner/Kent/Clemens, Berkman/Oswalt/Pettitte on the newly-released HOF ballot (https://www.mlb.com/news/2019-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot/c-300872592).
One man's view of the debutantes:
Brian Kenny @ MrBrianKenny 1 hour ago
# HOF ballot: Very Good Debut Class. Easy Yes: Rivera, Halladay. Probably: Helton, Berkman. To be studied: Pettitte, Oswalt.
Helton is a tough case because he was basically career-Barry-Bonds at Coors and career-Bernie-Williams away from it. Bernie was a good player but wasn't deemed worthy enough to even make it onto more than two ballots. So how much credit should Helton get simply because he played half his games at the most hitter-friendly park of his time? It's also worth noting that Bonds and Williams played half of their games in neutral/pitcher-friendly parks.
For me, the yes votes are for Rivera, Halladay, and maybe Pettitte.
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Helton is a tough case because he was basically career-Barry-Bonds at Coors and career-Bernie-Williams away from it. Bernie was a good player but wasn't deemed worthy enough to even make it onto more than two ballots. So how much credit should Helton get simply because he played half his games at the most hitter-friendly park of his time? It's also worth noting that Bonds and Williams played half of their games in neutral/pitcher-friendly parks.
For me, the yes votes are for Rivera, Halladay, and maybe Pettitte.
I don't get this idea that Halladay is a slam dunk, no brainer HOFer. Only if you think Tim Hudson is too. I would not vote for Halladay or Pettitte. I'm on the fence about Rivera, but I'd probably vote for him.
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Halladay's top 10 most similar players on BBRef are interesting:
1. Verlander
2. Greinke
3. Gooden
4. Lester
5. Guidry
6. Jimmy Key
7. Dazzy Vance
8. Oswalt
9. Saberhagen
10. Hudson
So, you've got 1 Hall of Famer (Vance), 1 guy with a good chance of getting in (Verlander), and a bunch of good/great-but-not-HOF players (Greinke, Gooden, Lester, Guidry, Key, Oswalt, Saberhagen, Hudson).
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Halladay's top 10 most similar players on BBRef are interesting:
1. Verlander
2. Greinke
3. Gooden
4. Lester
5. Guidry
6. Jimmy Key
7. Dazzy Vance
8. Oswalt
9. Saberhagen
10. Hudson
So, you've got 1 Hall of Famer (Vance), 1 guy with a good chance of getting in (Verlander), and a bunch of good/great-but-not-HOF players (Greinke, Gooden, Lester, Guidry, Key, Oswalt, Saberhagen, Hudson).
While they were both playing there were a bunch of Halliday/Oswalt comparisons. The stats, IIRC, were very similar.
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While they were both playing there were a bunch of Halliday/Oswalt comparisons. The stats, IIRC, were very similar.
Pretty similar -- Halladay just did it for longer (and was maybe a little better at his peak).
Halladay: 203-105, 3.38 ERA, 64.3 WAR, 416 G, 390 GS, 2749.1 IP, 2117 K, 1.178 WHIP
Oswalt: 163-102, 3.36 ERA, 50.1 WAR, 365 G, 341 GS, 2245.1 IP, 1852 K, 1.211 WHIP
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Pretty similar -- Halladay just did it for longer (and was maybe a little better at his peak).
Halladay: 203-105, 3.38 ERA, 64.3 WAR, 416 G, 390 GS, 2749.1 IP, 2117 K, 1.178 WHIP
Oswalt: 163-102, 3.36 ERA, 50.1 WAR, 365 G, 341 GS, 2245.1 IP, 1852 K, 1.211 WHIP
Thanks BUW. Halladay was a much larger guy than Oswalt. Maybe that allowed more longevity. Or maybe he was just more interested in playing.
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Halladay pitched a perfect game, and a no-hitter in the playoffs. That carries a bit of weight with voters.
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I also read he still leads MLB in complete games since 2009. There's probably a lot of nostalgia for that kind of workhorse with today's starters throwing so few innings.
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Halladay finished in the top 3 in Cy Young voting 5 times, winning twice.
Hudson, Pettitte and Oswalt finished in the top 3 once each.
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I think Pettitte will eventually get in, because of Jeter.
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I will admit I didn't look up Halladay's numbers. His numbers aren't much better than Oswalt's, but they are a little better.
Pettitte is in good company with other left-handers for his career. He's 11th all-time in wins for a LHP; nine ahead of him are in the HOF. In WAR he's T-12th all-time among LHP; out of the 12 players who are ahead of or tied with him, nine are in the HOF and two (Kershaw and Sabathia) are still active.
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I think Pettitte will eventually get in, because of Jeter.
I don't think the PED stank on Pettitte will wash off.
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I will admit I didn't look up Halladay's numbers. His numbers aren't much better than Oswalt's, but they are a little better.
Pettitte is in good company with other left-handers for his career. He's 11th all-time in wins for a LHP; nine ahead of him are in the HOF. In WAR he's T-12th all-time among LHP; out of the 12 players who are ahead of or tied with him, nine are in the HOF and two (Kershaw and Sabathia) are still active.
Halladay was a fine pitcher. An excellent one. Maybe he's worthy, maybe not. I think it needs some consideration. Is he a no-brainer, don't even need to think, first ballot HOFer that people are making him out to be? I don't think so.
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I don't think the PED stank on Pettitte will wash off.
Pettitte admitted, said he was sorry (sort of), and asked for forgiveness. I think that will go a lot further than Bonds's and Clemens's denials. Plus he was a Yankee.
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Pettitte admitted, said he was sorry (sort of), and asked for forgiveness. I think that will go a lot further than Bonds's and Clemens's denials. Plus he was a Yankee.
It will be fun to see all the sportswriters trip over themselves to excuse good ol' Andy while condemning others for the same conduct.
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You don't have the equivalent of Barry Bonds hitting 73 home runs when he turned 36 when most power hitters are starting to fade or Clemens throwing a sub-2.00 ERA season at age 42. (Though Pettitte's 2005 season alongside Clemens was probably his best).
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Halladay was a fine pitcher. An excellent one. Maybe he's worthy, maybe not. I think it needs some consideration. Is he a no-brainer, don't even need to think, first ballot HOFer that people are making him out to be? I don't think so.
When he died, his HOF status was elevated quite a bit. I think he should get in, but like you, I don't see him as a no doubter.
If Halladay is first ballot, no doubt HOFer then Oswalt is also a HOFer. And i don't think Roy is a HOFer. Just my two cents.
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I think Berkman should get in but I don't think he will. You can stack his numbers from 01-09 against just about anyone not named Barry Bonds and he looks pretty damn good. The problem Berkman has is longevity, broke into the bigs at 23 and last played at 36. Hard to be a HOFer with only a 13 year resume and 3 of those 13, he played less than half a season
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I think Berkman should get in but I don't think he will. You can stack his numbers from 01-09 against just about anyone not named Barry Bonds and he looks pretty damn good. The problem Berkman has is longevity, broke into the bigs at 23 and last played at 36. Hard to be a HOFer with only a 13 year resume and 3 of those 13, he played less than half a season
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I think this is true.
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I think Berkman should get in but I don't think he will. You can stack his numbers from 01-09 against just about anyone not named Barry Bonds and he looks pretty damn good. The problem Berkman has is longevity, broke into the bigs at 23 and last played at 36. Hard to be a HOFer with only a 13 year resume and 3 of those 13, he played less than half a season
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I'm pleasantly surprised by the positive spin a lot of talking heads are putting on his candidacy.
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Halladay was a fine pitcher. An excellent one. Maybe he's worthy, maybe not. I think it needs some consideration. Is he a no-brainer, don't even need to think, first ballot HOFer that people are making him out to be? I don't think so.
I absolutely agree with this. But Halladay was a great big game pitcher and that, along with, hoping not to sound too morbid, a tragic death at a young age not long before he went on ballot, will probably get him in his first trip thru.
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ICYMI, the Today's Game committee voted Lee Smith and Harold Baines into the HOF today.
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ICYMI, the Today's Game committee voted Lee Smith and Harold Baines into the HOF today.
I think Lee Smith absolutely belongs in the Hall of Very Good.
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I think Lee Smith absolutely belongs in the Hall of Very Good.
Quisenberry as his setup man?
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Baines in the HOF is mind-bogglingly bad. It may the worst selection ever. He was a solid role player most of his career, not really excelling at anything.
Smith was useful.
This was a very, very bad day for the HOF
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Harold Baines?!?!? You've got to be kidding.
ETA: in 5 years on the ballot he never received more than 6.1% of votes.
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Jay Jaffe agrees (https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/hall-election-of-lee-smith-makes-sense-but-harold-baines/) that Smith is acceptable, Baines is hot nonsense. Interesting to see the names on the 16-person committee:
Hall of Famers: Roberto Alomar, Bert Blyleven, Pat Gillick, Tony La Russa, Greg Maddux, Joe Morgan, John Schuerholz, Ozzie Smith, Joe Torre
Executives: Al Avila (Tigers), Paul Beeston (Blue Jays), Andy MacPhail (Phillies), Jerry Reinsdorf (White Sox)
Media: Steve Hirdt (Elias Sports Bureau), Tim Kurkjian (ESPN), Claire Smith (ESPN)
Smith got all 16 votes, Baines got 12.
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Also, I hate being reminded that Kenny Lofton dropped off with less than 5% on his first ballot. That was some bullshit.
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Also, I hate being reminded that Kenny Lofton dropped off with less than 5% on his first ballot. That was some bullshit.
Jimmy Wynn didn't get on god damn vote.
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Harold Baines?!?!? You've got to be kidding.
ETA: in 5 years on the ballot he never received more than 6.1% of votes.
Players more deserving than Baines:
Lance Berkman
Albert Belle
Joe Carter
Kenny Lofton
Larry Walker
Jim Edmonds
Dante Bichette
Jermaine Dye
Bernie Williams
Torri Hunter
Carlos Lee
Paul O'Neill
Magglio Ordonez
Brian Giles...
And that's just scratching the surface of contemporaries. This is a fucking trainwreck for the HOF.
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That is a list of fine players, none of which belongs anywhere near the Hall of Fame.
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What gets me is that Baines never got higher than 9th for MVP. And he only received MVP votes 4 times in a 22 year career. At best he's a compiler, but he's not even a good compiler.
I didn't watch a lot of the White Sox in the 80s while Harold Baines was playing because we didn't get a lot of AL games back then on Houston TV. So maybe he had lots of intangibles that I didn't see.
But I don't get this vote at all.
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What gets me is that Baines never got higher than 9th for MVP. And he only received MVP votes 4 times in a 22 year career. At best he's a compiler, but he's not even a good compiler.
I didn't watch a lot of the White Sox in the 80s while Harold Baines was playing because we didn't get a lot of AL games back then on Houston TV. So maybe he had lots of intangibles that I didn't see.
But I don't get this vote at all.
No. He had no "intangibles". He was a poor defender and a plodding baserunner, who's only positive was that he didn't get hurt being a slap hitting DH. I guess he was a nice guy though.
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I think Lee Smith absolutely belongs in the Hall of Very Good.
Almost an Astro. Retired while at AAA with Houston org.
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That is a list of fine players, none of which belongs anywhere near the Hall of Fame.
I think Lofton should be in at least. I think the HOF voters are biased against CFs compared to other positions.
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Oswalt and Berkman are both going to drop off the ballot. That's pretty surprising.
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Oswalt and Berkman are both going to drop off the ballot. That's pretty surprising.
Don't worry, Lance played for Tony LaRussa and was a "run producer" so I'm sure he'll eventually get in on some fucked up Veterans Committee vote.
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Mike Mussina joins Rivera, Halladay and Edgar Martinez in the Hall.
With Baines and Smith, it'll be a 6-man class.
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Rivera with 100%.
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Rivera with 100%.
First player to do so.
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Good picks by the voters, not so much the game era committee.
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Oswalt and Berkman are both going to drop off the ballot. That's pretty surprising.
Finish with just 0.9% and 1.2% respectively. Also dropping off ballot is Miguel Tejada who also got 1.2%.
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First player to do so.
Jeter likely to make it back-to-back next year now that the “debate” is over.
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Other exes (including prior year results):
Schilling....60.9%
2013 BBWAA (38.8%)
2014 BBWAA (29.2%)
2015 BBWAA (39.2%)
2016 BBWAA (52.3%)
2017 BBWAA (45.0%)
2018 BBWAA (51.2%)
Clemens...59.5%
2013 BBWAA (37.6%)
2014 BBWAA (35.4%)
2015 BBWAA (37.5%)
2016 BBWAA (45.2%)
2017 BBWAA (54.1%)
2018 BBWAA (57.3%)
Kent..........18.1%
2014 BBWAA (15.2%)
2015 BBWAA (14.0%)
2016 BBWAA (16.6%)
2017 BBWAA (16.7%)
2018 BBWAA (14.5%)
Wagner....16.7%
2016 BBWAA (10.5%)
2017 BBWAA (10.2%)
2018 BBWAA (11.1%)
Pettitte......9.9%
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Jeter likely to make it back-to-back next year now that the “debate” is over.
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Yep. I still can't believe someone thought Willie Mays wasn't a hall of famer.
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Defensive SS (Omar Vizquel, 42.8%) appear more popular than defensive CF (Andruw Jones, 7.5%).
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Jeter likely to make it back-to-back next year now that the “debate” is over.
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I'm glad that stupid tradition is dead.
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Other exes (including prior year results):
Schilling....60.9%Clemens...59.5%Kent..........18.1%Wagner....16.7% Pettitte......9.9%
Is Clemens trending upwards? I have not kept up with his previous years, but I seem to remember a year where he got less than double digit votes.
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Is Clemens trending upwards? I have not kept up with his previous years, but I seem to remember a year where he got less than double digit votes.
Re-read my post.
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Re-read my post.
Always a good idea. Me an idiot. Only a slight gain and he never got less than 35%. The voting trend on him seems to indicate he's still an enigma for the voters.
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I've always been surprised at Pettitte's low numbers. I thought he'd be in by now (not that I think he deserves it, but he *was* a Yankee, after all).
As for the potentials...I think Schilling will eventually get in, but not sure about Bonds or Clemens (at least on the BBWAA ballot). Yes, they are trending up, but I think they've kind of maxed out the voters who are willing to vote for them.
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Always a good idea. Me an idiot. Only a slight gain and he never got less than 35%. The voting trend on him seems to indicate he's still an enigma for the voters.
Heard this morning: Bonds & Clemens on over 70% of public ballots and only on 40% of non-public ballots. I will let you draw your own conclusions. I thought the difference was interesting.
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I've always been surprised at Pettitte's low numbers. I thought he'd be in by now (not that I think he deserves it, but he *was* a Yankee, after all).
As for the potentials...I think Schilling will eventually get in, but not sure about Bonds or Clemens (at least on the BBWAA ballot). Yes, they are trending up, but I think they've kind of maxed out the voters who are willing to vote for them.
Some of it probably has to do with Pettitte admitting to doping with HGH...the voters not voting for Bonds or Clemens are not voting for him
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I've always been surprised at Pettitte's low numbers. I thought he'd be in by now (not that I think he deserves it, but he *was* a Yankee, after all).
As for the potentials...I think Schilling will eventually get in, but not sure about Bonds or Clemens (at least on the BBWAA ballot). Yes, they are trending up, but I think they've kind of maxed out the voters who are willing to vote for them.
Eventually Bonds, Clemens will be recognized even if there is a special designation such as a cheaters wing.
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Oswalt and Berkman are both going to drop off the ballot. That's pretty surprising.
At least there is the new Astros HOF.
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Eventually Bonds, Clemens will be recognized even if there is a special designation such as a cheaters wing.
I hope that’s not how it happens. Seeing the “asterisk” ball in person at the HOF put it all in perspective for me. People trying to keep Bonds & Clemens out of the hall, or to somehow mar their memorabilia there, are just trying to insert themselves into history. It’s so selfish, so petty. There I was, looking at the record-setting HR ball, realizing there’ll forever be a big asterisk carved into it because some rich asshole wanted to write himself into the story. It sucked.
Let them in and trust the fans to make their own judgments on the history.
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I hope that’s not how it happens. Seeing the “asterisk” ball in person at the HOF put it all in perspective for me. People trying to keep Bonds & Clemens out of the hall, or to somehow mar their memorabilia there, are just trying to insert themselves into history. It’s so selfish, so petty. There I was, looking at the record-setting HR ball, realizing there’ll forever be a big asterisk carved into it because some rich asshole wanted to write himself into the story. It sucked.
Let them in and trust the fans to make their own judgments on the history.
What do we do with Pete Rose then?
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What do we do with Pete Rose then?
Put him in. I don’t think exclusion from the hall makes sense as a punishment. I find his being on MLB broadcasts way more distasteful than including him in the HOF.
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Put him in. I don’t think exclusion from the hall makes sense as a punishment. I find his being on MLB broadcasts way more distasteful than including him in the HOF.
Ok, I think Rose eventually gets in, but I'm not sure it's within his lifetime.
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Ok, I think Rose eventually gets in, but I'm not sure it's within his lifetime.
The freshest Rose story out there is the sexual misconduct one.
He ain't getting in. Ever.
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I'm glad that stupid tradition is dead.
Me too. But I do think it's interesting that the player who ended it was someone who never won a Cy Young or an MVP and pitched only 70 innings a game. Mariano is hardly the greatest baseball player of all time.
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Me too. But I do think it's interesting that the player who ended it was someone who never won a Cy Young or an MVP and pitched only 70 innings a game. Mariano is hardly the greatest baseball player of all time.
70 innings in a game is pretty amazing.
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70 innings in a game is pretty amazing.
It's no coincidence that games lasted longer and longer throughout his career.
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It's no coincidence that games lasted longer and longer throughout his career.
He dragged things out to pad his stats.
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The freshest Rose story out there is the sexual misconduct one.
He ain't getting in. Ever.
^^^This.
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The freshest Rose story out there is the sexual misconduct one.
He ain't getting in. Ever.
I somehow missed ever hearing about that.
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I'm glad that stupid tradition is dead.
In its place, B.O. wants to create an equally stupid tradition...
Buster Olney @Buster_ESPN 12m ago
Some fans have felt that the HOF is diminished by the high volume of entrants. Now that this is finally possible, moving forward, the new 100% standard will help to create an inner circle of HOFers -- the players who are unanimous selections from 2019 forward.
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In its place, B.O. wants to create an equally stupid tradition...
Buster Olney @Buster_ESPN 12m ago
Some fans have felt that the HOF is diminished by the high volume of entrants. Now that this is finally possible, moving forward, the new 100% standard will help to create an inner circle of HOFers -- the players who are unanimous selections from 2019 forward.
That just doubles down the dumbness of the original tradition.
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Go easy on Buster. He’s out of a job if he doesn’t keep coming up with inane BS like that.
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That just doubles down the dumbness of the original tradition.
Good grief. What a terrible notion.
Sorry Babe Ruth, your plaque needs to be moved for the unanimous Jeter display.
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Good grief. What a terrible notion.
Sorry Babe Ruth, your plaque needs to be moved for the unanimous Jeter display.
YEAH JEETS
YEAH JEETS
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In its place, B.O. wants to create an equally stupid tradition...
The Yankees already have Monument Park. What else do they want?
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In its place, B.O. wants to create an equally stupid tradition...
Buster Olney @Buster_ESPN 12m ago
Some fans have felt that the HOF is diminished by the high volume of entrants. Now that this is finally possible, moving forward, the new 100% standard will help to create an inner circle of HOFers -- the players who are unanimous selections from 2019 forward.
I didn't know this was possible but I feel dumber after reading that.
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Just thinking about this some more. This is easily the worst HOF class in history. It truly is an embarrassment.
And the BBWAA vote was just as bad. There is no legitimate argument that Edgar Martinez is more deserving than Lance Berkman, yet one sails in and the other drops off the ballot without even consideration. I guess the voters have decided that in the absence of voting in the steroid guys like Bonds and Clemens, they have to just find some warm bodies. And there’s no reasoning behind which warm bodies they choose. Just a sad day for baseball.
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Just thinking about this some more. This is easily the worst HOF class in history. It truly is an embarrassment.
And the BBWAA vote was just as bad. There is no legitimate argument that Edgar Martinez is more deserving than Lance Berkman, yet one sails in and the other drops off the ballot without even consideration. I guess the voters have decided that in the absence of voting in the steroid guys like Bonds and Clemens, they have to just find some warm bodies. And there’s no reasoning behind which warm bodies they choose. Just a sad day for baseball.
I'm going to think about this some more but I think I agree with you.
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In its place, B.O. wants to create an equally stupid tradition...
Buster Olney @Buster_ESPN 12m ago
Some fans have felt that the HOF is diminished by the high volume of entrants. Now that this is finally possible, moving forward, the new 100% standard will help to create an inner circle of HOFers -- the players who are unanimous selections from 2019 forward.
I never enjoyed geometry but I'm pretty sure you can't make any kind of circle with one of something. Or two.
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Just thinking about this some more. This is easily the worst HOF class in history. It truly is an embarrassment.
And the BBWAA vote was just as bad. There is no legitimate argument that Edgar Martinez is more deserving than Lance Berkman, yet one sails in and the other drops off the ballot without even consideration. I guess the voters have decided that in the absence of voting in the steroid guys like Bonds and Clemens, they have to just find some warm bodies. And there’s no reasoning behind which warm bodies they choose. Just a sad day for baseball.
Rivera is unanimous because Yankee. He deserves to be in but now they better vote in Wagner in the next few years. He's right there with Rivera and much better than Hoffman.
I wouldn't say Edgar sailed in, it took 10 years after all. I've been on the fence about him but you're right, Lance falling off the ballot is disgraceful.
Roy Halladay is in, lets be honest, because he died. If he was still alive, he would get in eventually I think but not this year. But like Edgar vs Berkman, Halladay is that much better than Oswalt, who got less than 1%.
Mike Mussina has a pretty good case but he's definitely not an upper echelon HOFer.
Lee Smith and Harrold Baines...... what the actual fuck happened here to let thos two guys in? Whose sucking whose dick to let that happen? I don't get it.
When you look at modern day comparisons to Lee Smith you end up with journeyman relievers. He has some good numbers but to be a reliever to make the hall, you gotta be otherworldly and he just isn't.
There is no and I mean no reason Harold Baines should be in the HOF. He had 38.7 career WAR in 22 YEARS, Berkman had 52.1 WAR in 15 years. Harold Baines doesn't even qualify for the hall of very good. Maybe he could be in the hall of kinda good.
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I never enjoyed geometry but I'm pretty sure you can't make any kind of circle with one of something. Or two.
A circle is *one* continuous line drawn so that each point on that line is equidistant from a central point.
Now whether a reliever with a wicked cutter could pull off that feat is another question.
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A circle is *one* continuous line drawn so that each point on that line is equidistant from a central point.
Now whether a reliever with a wicked cutter could pull off that feat is another question.
Pedantry: it’s a set of points, not a line.
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Jayson Stark @jaysonst 3 hours ago
The more I look at Lance Berkman, the more I think he ranks as one of the worst one-and-dones in #HOF voting history.
The only others players with 1900+ hits & as good an OPS-Plus (144) as Berkman who aren't in the Hall? Barry Bonds & Manny Ramirez - for other reasons!
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Jayson Stark @jaysonst 3 hours ago
The more I look at Lance Berkman, the more I think he ranks as one of the worst one-and-dones in #HOF voting history.
The only others players with 1900+ hits & as good an OPS-Plus (144) as Berkman who aren't in the Hall? Barry Bonds & Manny Ramirez - for other reasons!
Glad he tweeted that. Lance deserved better.
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I wouldn't say Edgar sailed in, it took 10 years after all. I've been on the fence about him but you're right, Lance falling off the ballot is disgraceful.
I was thinking this ballot only. He easily reached the 75%. But that's exactly why Berkman (or any number of other players) being gone after one is so disappointing. Voters obviously changed their opinion of Martinez over the course of 10 years, yet they're not even willing to entertain mulling over Berkman's qualification. And that's a shame.
Roy Halladay is in, lets be honest, because he died. If he was still alive, he would get in eventually I think but not this year. But like Edgar vs Berkman, Halladay is that much better than Oswalt, who got less than 1%.
I'm on the fence about Halladay too. Were he still alive, he's probably not in yet.
Mike Mussina has a pretty good case but he's definitely not an upper echelon HOFer.
Mussina's one of those guys who you think "he's not upper echelon, but someone has to be in the bottom half of HOFers". He certainly as worthy as Glavin and Smoltz, IMO. None of those are "upper echelon".
Lee Smith and Harrold Baines...... what the actual fuck happened here to let thos two guys in? Whose sucking whose dick to let that happen? I don't get it.
Both of those are a complete embarrassment to the HOFers who came before them and will come after them.
When you look at modern day comparisons to Lee Smith you end up with journeyman relievers. He has some good numbers but to be a reliever to make the hall, you gotta be otherworldly and he just isn't.
I think there are already far too many relievers in the Hall. Smith doesn't belong, Sutter doesn't belong, Hoffman doesn't belong, Fingers doesn't belong, Eckersley *maybe* belongs. At this point there should be only one or two relievers, and Rivera is one of them.
There is no and I mean no reason Harold Baines should be in the HOF. He had 38.7 career WAR in 22 YEARS, Berkman had 52.1 WAR in 15 years. Harold Baines doesn't even qualify for the hall of very good. Maybe he could be in the hall of kinda good.
Baines belongs in the "Hall of Mediocre".
I think you're seeing now the havoc wrought by the steroid guys. This ballot you have at least five guys who'd already be in (Bonds, Clemens, Ramirez, Sosa, Sheffield ,and Schilling would probably be in if he weren't such a wingnut douchebag [right or wrong]), and that left little room for guys like Berkman to stay on the ballot.
And on an even sadder note, I don't see any way Omar Vizquel doesn't make it. I'm shocked at how much support he has, but think a lot of that is backlash against the steroid guys too.
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I think there are already far too many relievers in the Hall. Smith doesn't belong, Sutter doesn't belong, Hoffman doesn't belong, Fingers doesn't belong, Eckersley *maybe* belongs. At this point there should be only one or two relievers, and Rivera is one of them.
I'm not old enough to have seen any of those guys play except Hoffman but based on numbers, I 100% agree.
But since they are in, Wagner has better numbers than any of them.
I think you're seeing now the havoc wrought by the steroid guys. This ballot you have at least five guys who'd already be in (Bonds, Clemens, Ramirez, Sosa, Sheffield ,and Schilling would probably be in if he weren't such a wingnut douchebag [right or wrong]), and that left little room for guys like Berkman to stay on the ballot.
I don't know how others on here feel but if I think that Bonds, Clemens and Schilling should have already been voted in. I just can't see penalizing guys for steroids before they even started testing for it. Baseball and baseball writers looked the other way for years. You can't now go back now and play moral police. Just vote them in and be done with this farce.
Ramirez is a no for me because he got popped for steroids after testing started, so he actually cheated in my eyes and I say that as someone who really liked Manny growing up.
Sosa and Sheffield just don't do it for me HOF wise even without the steroid issue, but Sheffield is somewhat close.
You are definitely right that it's now causing issues by having a really bloated ballot
And on an even sadder note, I don't see any way Omar Vizquel doesn't make it. I'm shocked at how much support he has, but think a lot of that is backlash against the steroid guys too.
I don't get it with Vizquel either. Was he ever even top 10 at his position? Top 15? How can you possibly be a HOFer if you are never even one of the best at your position while you were playing.
Looking at his numbers, he 2 seasons in his ENTIRE 24 YEAR CAREER where he was an above offensive player. I know he was great on defense but come on, 2 seasons of above average offense, I don't care how great you are on def you still have to hit a little.
He shouldn't be sniffing the hall.
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Sosa and Sheffield just don't do it for me HOF wise even without the steroid issue, but Sheffield is somewhat close.
To play the comparison game with recent inductees:
Sheffield: .292/.393/.514, 506 HRs, 1676 RBI, 60.5 WAR
Sosa: .273/.344/.534, 609 HRs, 1667 RBI, 58.6 WAR
Thome: .276/.402/.554, 612 HRs, 1699 RBI, 72.9 WAR
Bagwell: .297/.408/.540, 449 HRs, 1529 RBI, 79.9 WAR
What's interesting is that Sheffield, Sosa and Thome all had that "magic number" of 500 HRs, yet Bagwell was considered the toughest to replace (granted this doesn't count defense and others things like stolen bases, etc), and the difference in viewpoint of Bagwell and Thome suggests to me that the "magic number" was indeed magic. I can't imagine Sheffield with 500 HRs, and Sosa with 600 would not have been first ballot selections.
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Great discussion, guys. Better than the one I saw last week on the MLB Network with the so-called "experts". (writers, Costas, and MLB net guys. BTW Costas said almost the same things about Baines, i.e. a very "good" player and great guy but...).
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I think it's odd that Mussina and Halladay will have blank caps on their plaque. Is there anyone else with a blank cap (excepting those who played before there were team logos on caps)?
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I think it's odd that Mussina and Halladay will have blank caps on their plaque. Is there anyone else with a blank cap (excepting those who played before there were team logos on caps)?
Maddux, I think.
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Maddux, I think.
Apparently Yogi and Catfish too, which is odd. Yogi played all but one year with the Yankees, and while Catfish finished the last few years of his career on the Yankees when I close my eyes I see him in green and yellow.
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I'm bored, so I just went through all the HOF plaques of people from about 1950 to present.
The only people I found without a logo on their cap from that era:
* Yogi Berra (https://baseballhall.org/hall-of-famers/berra-yogi) (he's turned sideways, so you can't see the front of his cap)
* Catfish Hunter (https://baseballhall.org/hall-of-famers/hunter-catfish) (just a blank cap)
* Tony LaRussa (https://baseballhall.org/hall-of-famers/larussa-tony) (turned kind of sideways, so it's not as noticeable)
* Greg Maddux (https://baseballhall.org/hall-of-famers/maddux-greg) (blank cap)
(As you might guess, there are lots of earlier examples, from the deadball era, Negro Leagues, etc.)
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Damn. I was hoping LaGenius' cap would be turned to the side JimR watermelon hat style.
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Damn. I was hoping LaGenius' cap would be turned to the side JimR watermelon hat style.
And have him asleep at the wheel.
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Put him in. I don’t think exclusion from the hall makes sense as a punishment. I find his being on MLB broadcasts way more distasteful than including him in the HOF.
Fuck, no. He bet on baseball and lied about it.
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Fuck, no. He bet on baseball and lied about it.
And that’s far from the worst thing he did during his playing days. If you have any desire to despise him even more just check the local coverage in Cinci over the last two years. He is/was a dispicable piece of shit. He’ll never sniff the Hall.