Roy O to Phillies

[pots]

I can't keep track of all this shit. Is Kepp still rumored to be in the deal, along with 11 million?

I haven't heard Kepp involved since this morning

[JackAstro]

I haven't heard Kepp involved since this morning

That's good to hear, thanks.

[Reuben]

Sounds like Happ and Gose are close to confirmed at this point. Several sites saying Worley is the 3rd and final player, though Ed Price (via astroscounty) says he has two sources saying Singleton is in.

From what I've read, we should be excited if Singleton is The Third Man, bummed if its Worley.

[Froback]

I love Kepp on the team too, but if it takes Kepp to get Singleton in the deal, I am not going to miss Kepp that much.

[Ron Brand]

Price tempers his tweet by noting that his two sources are not involved in the trade.

[Greg M]

Friend is saying per ESPN:

Roy Oswalt and Hunter Pence + $11 million dollars to the Philles for J.A. Happ, Jayson Werth, and SIngle-A player 1B Jonathan Singleton

[JackAstro]

I love Kepp on the team too, but if it takes Kepp to get Singleton in the deal, I am not going to miss Kepp that much.

I agree, though I would definitely miss Kepp. My concern was the possibility of sending him, Oswalt, and half his remaining salary, and not getting back the prospects that they're targeting.

[JackAstro]

Friend is saying per ESPN:

Roy Oswalt and Hunter Pence + $11 million dollars to the Philles for J.A. Happ, Jayson Werth, and SIngle-A player 1B Jonathan Singleton

WHA???

[pots]

Friend is saying per ESPN:

Roy Oswalt and Hunter Pence + $11 million dollars to the Philles for J.A. Happ, Jayson Werth, and SIngle-A player 1B Jonathan Singleton

Ha, stop teasing

[JimR]

Friend is saying per ESPN:

Roy Oswalt and Hunter Pence + $11 million dollars to the Philles for J.A. Happ, Jayson Werth, and SIngle-A player 1B Jonathan Singleton

WOW

[Greg M]

It was a joke.

[JimR]

my bad. i made the mistake of thinking this is a serious thread.

[Ron Brand]

Friend is saying per ESPN:

Roy Oswalt and Hunter Pence + $11 million dollars to the Philles for J.A. Happ, Jayson Werth, and SIngle-A player 1B Jonathan Singleton

Throw in those other couple of pitchers being mentioned and I would be ok with this trade. Too bad.

[JackAstro]

It was a joke.

Good one?

[pots]

Crapenthol switching from Worley to some shortstop Jonathan Villar.  Philly radio says he has a mere 43 errors this year.

[Greg M]

Good one?

Ehh.  He got me.

[hostros7]

Crapenthol switching from Worley to some shortstop Burling or something?

He's worthless... no way some dickhead keeps leaving every time a different player is mentioned and texts it to him.

[JackAstro]

Ehh.  He got me.

Tell him to include blonds, aggies, religious figures, animals and/or a bar setting next time. And punch him in the throat.

[Ron Brand]

Man, this thing is all over the place. Now the Philly Enquirer is reporting Gose, Happ and Villan.

[JimR]

Man, this thing is all over the place. Now the Philly Enquirer is reporting Gose, Happ and Villan.

picking names out of a hat?

[austro]

Man, this thing is all over the place. Now the Philly Enquirer is reporting Gose, Happ and Villan.

In other words, they're all guessing. Why don't they just sit down, have a beer, and then report the real deal when Amaro tells them in the press conference?

[Ron Brand]

In other words, they're all guessing. Why don't they just sit down, have a beer, and then report the real deal when Amaro tells them in the press conference?

There's no way that the deal is changing that much. I wonder where all this noise is coming from.

[AtascAstro]

Man, this thing is all over the place. Now the Philly Enquirer is reporting Gose, Happ and Villanr.

MLB network  saying this is the deal.

[Reuben]

There's no way that the deal is changing that much. I wonder where all this noise is coming from.

Has to be Inception. Look around you. Notice how strange this trade seems. You're dreaming!

[AtascAstro]

No cash mentioned.

[Ron Brand]

MLB network  saying this is the deal.

Well, fuck.

That's a real disappointment after mentioning Singleton.

[cc]

Meanwhile, Stark has been curiously silent for the past two hours.  These days, that's equivalent to a full news cycle.  He must be aware of all the "noise" out there but also doesn't have the definitive list.

[AtascAstro]

Villar is a 19 year old shortstop with A-ball Lakewood, who's hit .272/.332/.358 with 38 stolen bases. He's known for his defense and his subpar plate discipline has been exposed against Sally League competition, but he's still managed to hold his own as a teenager, and is a fringe top-10 organizational prospect.


SBNation...just what came up in Google

[hostros7]

No cash mentioned.

This deal seems right with no cash.  Astros throw in $11mm, and it starts to not make sense.  I hate the twitter era.

[JackAstro]

Has to be Inception. Look around you. Notice how strange this trade seems. You're dreaming!

Think about it. Do you remember how this deal came together?

[Randy Watson]

If the deal reported by MLB network is true, we've been screwed.

[AtascAstro]

Great, now MLB takes us to Pinwheel for the inside scoop...facepalm


who says we are still sending $11 million with Roy...I'm on a horse

[Ron Brand]

Two fast glove guys who can't really hit and a #3 who has been hurt most of the year. All cheap, the prospects are young. Crap, I was excited about Singleton.

So much for that Jedi Mind Trick shit.

ETA: Tags tweets that Oswalt has approved the trade.

[pots]

Maybe they told Wade will give you Jonathan and he said deal.

[Reuben]

Think about it. Do you remember how this deal came together?

Have you seen the graphic "explaining" the "kicks" in Inception? Made me think of the In-game Snack Spectrum.

[Reuben]

Meanwhile, Stark has been curiously silent for the past two hours.  

As has Footer.

[Randy Watson]

Two fast glove guys who can't really hit and a #3 who has been hurt most of the year. All cheap, the prospects are young. Crap, I was excited about Singleton.

So much for that Jedi Mind Trick shit.

ETA: Tags tweets that Oswalt has approved the trade.

And that #3 will be on the wrong side of 30 by the time we are ready to compete.  To go along with his injury issues.

[Bench]

Stark now on ESPNews with the official deal.

[domedogs]

I am in favor of starting a FireEdWade.com if this is the haul for Roy Oswalt and $11MM.

[Bench]

Phillies increase the buyout on his option to $3M from $2M.  Happ is the ROY runner up, Bose is very fast.  No word on how much (if any?) $ the Astros are kicking in.

[pots]

Phillies increase the buyout on his option to $3M from $2M.  Happ is the ROY runner up, Bose is very fast.  No word on how much (if any?) $ the Astros are kicking in.

So then he doesn't know who the third player is yet either?

[Randy Watson]

We're going to corner the market on up the middle players who can't hit and have terrible plate discipline.

[hostros7]

The Dbacks seem to have gotten more for Haren without throwing in $11mm (based on internet prospect projecting).  Who knows though Gose and Villar could be Kemp and Andrus one day for all I know.

[AtascAstro]

Phillies increase the buyout on his option to $3M from $2M.  Happ is the ROY runner up, Bose is very fast.  No word on how much (if any?) $ the Astros are kicking in.

Pinwheel said $11 million on MLB network, while standing inside MMPUS.

[jbm]

Gose went from 76 steals/20 caught last year to 36 steals/27 caught this year  That is just odd.

[jaklewein]

 Who knows though Gose and Villar could be Kemp and Andrus one day for all I know.

That's the stance I'm going to take.  I'm happy with got a SP that's MLB ready and I'm happy Drayton was will to pay to get Roy shipped out.  I know one thing...Heck and company are on board so I'm feeling better than I ever would have before about these prospects.

[HudsonHawk]

If the Astros just swapped Oswalt and $11MM for Happ, Gose and Villar, they have been officially anally raped without lube. 

[Greg M]

If the Astros just swapped Oswalt and $11MM for Happ, Gose and Villar, they have been officially anally raped without lube. 

This.

I don't get this deal.  Why not use that money in Latin America?

[JaneDoe]

If the Astros just swapped Oswalt and $11MM for Happ, Gose and Villar, they have been officially anally raped without lube. 

Agreed.

[domedogs]

If the Astros just swapped Oswalt and $11MM for Happ, Gose and Villar, they have been officially anally raped without lube. 

100% agree.

[Ron Brand]

If the Astros just swapped Oswalt and $11MM for Happ, Gose and Villar, they have been officially anally raped without lube. 

Yeah. If it was Singleton and $11M, it still wouldn't be a good deal but that much money and two JAGs just doesn't make sense.

[cc]

This.

I don't get this deal.  Why not use that money in Latin America?

Where at least there's lube.

[HudsonHawk]

Here's something else that makes zero sense...per ESPN:

"Oswalt did not demand that his 2012 mutual option for $16 million be picked up by the Phillies, a baseball source told ESPN.com's Amy K. Nelson. Instead, if either he or the Phillies chose not to pick it up, his $1 million buyout will increase to $2 million.

If Oswalt or the Phillies decline to exercise the option, then the pitcher will make $18 million next season. But both Oswalt and the Phillies must agree on the option for 2012 for him to stay with the team that season, the source told Nelson."

What the fuck does this mean?

[DVauthrin]

That's the stance I'm going to take.  I'm happy with got a SP that's MLB ready and I'm happy Drayton was will to pay to get Roy shipped out.  I know one thing...Heck and company are on board so I'm feeling better than I ever would have before about these prospects.

Sorry, but I disagree.    The Astros needed to get Singleton in the trade or tell the Phillies to Phuck off.   Then, on top of that, they donate 11 million dollars for a middling prospect package and a number 3/4 starter.    They did not have to trade Roy now, not with him under contract through at least next season.

[Randy Watson]

They'll re-sign/exercise the option on Myers and claim we are going to compete for championships with Happ, Myers, Wandy headlining our pitching staff and Pence headlining our offense.

We should trade everyone on the team for prospects right now.

Getting Happ is a joke.  He is or will shortly be arbitration eligible.

[JimR]

They'll re-sign/exercise the option on Myers and claim we are going to compete for championships with Happ, Myers, Wandy headlining our pitching staff and Pence headlining our offense.

We should trade everyone on the team for prospects right now.

Getting Happ is a joke.  He is or will shortly be arbitration eligible.

ok, now be quiet.

[Ron Brand]

Sorry, but I disagree.    The Astros needed to get Singleton in the trade or tell the Phillies to Phuck off.   Then, on top of that, they donate 11 million dollars for a middling prospect package and a number 3/4 starter.    They did not have to trade Roy now, not with him under contract through at least next season.

Plus, we don't know Heck & Co. are on board with this.

[JackAstro]

Here's something else that makes zero sense...per ESPN:

"Oswalt did not demand that his 2012 mutual option for $16 million be picked up by the Phillies, a baseball source told ESPN.com's Amy K. Nelson. Instead, if either he or the Phillies chose not to pick it up, his $1 million buyout will increase to $2 million.

If Oswalt or the Phillies decline to exercise the option, then the pitcher will make $18 million next season. But both Oswalt and the Phillies must agree on the option for 2012 for him to stay with the team that season, the source told Nelson."

What the fuck does this mean?

Wait I second... you don't unequivocally know?

[Lurch]

Here's something else that makes zero sense...per ESPN:

"Oswalt did not demand that his 2012 mutual option for $16 million be picked up by the Phillies, a baseball source told ESPN.com's Amy K. Nelson. Instead, if either he or the Phillies chose not to pick it up, his $1 million buyout will increase to $2 million.

If Oswalt or the Phillies decline to exercise the option, then the pitcher will make $18 million next season. But both Oswalt and the Phillies must agree on the option for 2012 for him to stay with the team that season, the source told Nelson."

What the fuck does this mean?

He gets $16MM next year no matter what.  If it's his last year (he declines or they decline 2012) he gets an extra $2MM and is done.  If, though, they both decide to go again in 2012, he'll get just the $16MM for 2011 and then another $16MM in 2012

[HudsonHawk]

Wait I second... you don't unequivocally know?

I know that if the option is not picked up, Oswalt becomes a free agent.  How he can do that and the Phillies/Astros *still* owe him $18MM is a mystery.

[JimR]

We're going to corner the market on up the middle players who can't hit and have terrible plate discipline.

do you do anything but bitch? take 3 seconds and tell me everything you like. that should be plenty of time.

[Randy Watson]

I guarantee you Drayton will say some bullshit about us competing for championships.

We should have started rebuilding once Clemens and Pettite left.  Instead we waste time and money on washed up or soon to be washed up veterans to pretend we actually can compete.

I am beyond pissed right now.  

[cc]

Ladies and gentlemen, your Houston Royals.

[Ty in Tampa]

Jesus, who spilled the whine?

[HudsonHawk]

He gets $16MM next year no matter what.  If it's his last year (he declines or they decline 2012) he gets an extra $2MM and is done.

The $2MM buyout doesn't count towards next year, if that's what they're trying to say.  They should have simply stopped at "$2MM buyout for 2012".

[Randy Watson]

do you do anything but bitch? take 3 seconds and tell me everything you like. that should be plenty of time.

Sorry, just venting.  This deal blows.  I won't post any more about this.

[Ron Brand]

Ladies and gentlemen, your Houston Royals.

It's not THAT bad.

[JackAstro]

I know that if the option is not picked up, Oswalt becomes a free agent.  How he can do that and the Phillies/Astros *still* owe him $18MM is a mystery.

Damn it man, at least pretend to have unwavering belief in your understanding of it. You're fucking up my whole worldview.

[DVauthrin]

They'll re-sign/exercise the option on Myers and claim we are going to compete for championships with Happ, Myers, Wandy headlining our pitching staff and Pence headlining our offense.

We should trade everyone on the team for prospects right now.

Getting Happ is a joke.  He is or will shortly be arbitration eligible.

I don't have a problem getting Happ, and he should have at least one year before becoming arbitration eligible. He's a solid middle of the rotation arm.  But I was hoping he'd be the 2nd piece in the deal, with Singleton as the centerpiece.    Especially when you basically pay for Oswalt to play in Philadelphia next season.

[dirty steve]

happ-i am guessing to replace roy on the active roster.
gose-replace bourn?  maybe the FO has something in mind with pence or lee in the offseason.
villar-maybe you move him to 2B, but that's why you drafted deshields, right?

singleton sounded like the real jewel of a proposed deal, but i had really never heard of anyone but happ before all of this speculation started.  i am guessing they were highly regarded by the scouts.

[HudsonHawk]

Damn it man, at least pretend to have unwavering belief in your understanding of it. You're fucking up my whole worldview.

Sorry, I'll pound the table the next time I rant.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

I don't like the trade now but I reserve the right to change my opinion in the future.

[HudsonHawk]

happ-i am guessing to replace roy on the active roster.
gose-replace bourn?  

Wait...time out...why do they need to replace Bourn on the active roster?  What did I miss last night while I was out drinking?

[Ron Brand]

Gose is just a speedy glove guy in CF. I think he's a top-25 guy in the Phillies org. Not a replacement for Bourn unless all hell breaks loose in every direction.

There are comps to Bourn, but Gose doesn't hit as well, if that tells you anything.

[jbm]

Has the money transfer been confirmed, or is that just a remnant of all the rumors?

[pots]

I'm missing where the prospects are official in anyway?  

[Jacksonian]

Wade, Heck, etc have scouted the hell out of these guys.

So either they really believe in them, or Drayton is pulling some serious strings on this.

[roadrunner]

This blows, but to be honest I was expecting a deal like this.

[JimR]

This blows, but to be honest I was expecting a deal like this.

of course, you did.

see you guys later after you have voted and hired a new GM.

[Fredia]

good grief the stove zone whatever is smoking. a new day has dawned and you can see the astros in the distance

[Ron Brand]

Has the money transfer been confirmed, or is that just a remnant of all the rumors?

I haven't seen anyone mention anything other than 'a portion' of Roy's contract to be paid by the Astros. If it's a couple million or so it makes a lot more sense but hell, what do I know? We'll know in five years.

[Froback]

I seem to recall something about Singleton not being eligible to be in a trade until he is under club control for 1 yr.  He was drafted last year and signed late, IIRC.  So it MIGHT be that Singleton cannot be officially added to this trade until later, thus why people are not listing him.  Perhaps there will be the infamous PTBNL in this trade that will be Singleton once his year in the Philly organization is reached.

Just something to think about....

btw, I have no access to media other than here and on internet as I am at work.  So this is speculation on my part.

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

good grief the stove zone whatever is smoking. a new day has dawned and you can see the astros in the distance

Finally, the voice of reason.

[Astro_Horn]

If the Astros just swapped Oswalt and $11MM for Happ, Gose and Villar, they have been officially anally raped without lube.  

It's certainly a disappointing outcome, but that's the breaks of having no trade leverage and a lose-lose contract situation.

By all accounts, the Phillies were the only team that remained even moderately interested in Roy O. based on the salary implications, and it made no sense to keep him on the roster and dump another ~$20MM+ into a single player when the team is fundamentally incapable of playing competitive baseball for the foreseeable future.

The organization is a no-win situation right now, and the smart (albeit painful) decision was to take the financial hit on Oswalt and try and get back whatever else was available in the way of prospects.  Unfortunately, there was only one team who was willing truly willing to play ball here, so no one should be surprised with what the team ultimately received in return, including the money that had to be eaten...there was no other realistic option.

If Roy O. was an impending FA the situation would have been different, but that $16MM + buyout aren't going anywhere, and there's no legitimate reason to believe that the trade options would've been any more desirable if the team waited until this Winter to dump him...especially given the risk of injury and/or late-season struggles.  The notion of getting anything better than .40 on the dollar was just not realistic under the current circumstances.  

I personally am relieved that this chapter is finally done and an actual rebuilding initiative appears to be in progress.    

[ValpoCory]

""It feels pretty good actually to have al of this stuff out of the way and I can concentrate on baseball," Oswalt said, according to the report.

Oswalt, who said he will pitch for the Phillies on Friday, said he loved his time in Houston but felt it was time to do make a change.

"I love the city of Houston and the Astros fans," Oswalt said, according to the report. "They have been great to me and the Astros are a great organization. I think it's time for us to separate and do something different.

"Philly has a great team with a chance to go to the World Series. I wanted this deal to be good for both the Astros and me and I think it is," he said, according to the report. "

ESPN.com

[Bench]

Here's something else that makes zero sense...per ESPN:

"Oswalt did not demand that his 2012 mutual option for $16 million be picked up by the Phillies, a baseball source told ESPN.com's Amy K. Nelson. Instead, if either he or the Phillies chose not to pick it up, his $1 million buyout will increase to $2 million.

If Oswalt or the Phillies decline to exercise the option, then the pitcher will make $18 million next season. But both Oswalt and the Phillies must agree on the option for 2012 for him to stay with the team that season, the source told Nelson."

What the fuck does this mean?

Are you serious?  It's perfectly obvious.  If the 2012 mutual option isn't picked up, than the team buys out the option.  The phillies agreed to increase that buyout.  This is really standard. 

[dirty steve]

Wait...time out...why do they need to replace Bourn on the active roster?  What did I miss last night while I was out drinking?

sorry.  just thought he might replace bourn if he was deemed too expensive in the offseason.  i'd prefer to keep him and move lee or pence.

[Ron Brand]

see you guys later after you have voted and hired a new GM.

Do you have the address for that internet vote?

[HudsonHawk]

It's certainly a disappointing outcome, but that's the breaks of having no trade leverage and a lose-lose contract situation.

They had all the leverage in the world.  Get what you want or don't make the deal.  The Astros did not have to trade Oswalt. 

[Ron Brand]

sorry.  just thought he might replace bourn if he was deemed too expensive in the offseason.  i'd prefer to keep him and move lee or pence.

Bourn isn't going anywhere, unless he gets elevated to Face of The Franchise.

[jbm]

Wade, Heck, etc have scouted the hell out of these guys.

So either they really believe in them, or Drayton is pulling some serious strings on this.

It is hard for me to envision Drayton's motivations.  He loses a marketable player and pays?

I'm hoping your first statement is correct: maybe they feel that the long-term combo of these three is worth a year and two months of Oswalt plus X amount of cash.

[Bench]

I don't get this deal.  Why not use that money in Latin America?

You do realize that the money you are referring to, plus more, would be paying for Oswalt.  Instead of paying the rest of his salary this year, his salary next year, and the option buyout, the Astros are only paying $11M.  That is less.

The Astros saved money on this deal.  Maybe they plan to spend that savings on a whirlwind trip to Rio?

[Bench]

It is hard for me to envision Drayton's motivations.  He loses a marketable player and pays?

I truly hope you are not an accountant.

[HudsonHawk]

Are you serious?  It's perfectly obvious.  If the 2012 mutual option isn't picked up, than the team buys out the option.  The phillies agreed to increase that buyout.  This is really standard. 

Thank you Captain Obvious.

[domedogs]

Hat tip to Astros County for finding this: http://twitter.com/TBrownYahoo/status/19850167475

Scouting Report from BA on Gose:

6.      Anthony Gose, of   Born: Aug. 10, 1990 • B-T: L-L • Ht: 6-1 • Wt: 190
 Drafted: HS—Bellflower, Calif., 2008 (2nd round) • Signed by: Tim Kissner
Anthony GoseBackground: Gose had as much arm strength as any high school lefthander this decade, reaching 97 mph at times, but had no desire to pitch as a professional. He also had a shoulder problem as a senior, so the Phillies popped him as an outfielder and paid him a $772,000 bonus. His tools were evident in 2009, as managers rated him the best and fastest baserunner, best defensive outfielder and most exciting player in the South Atlantic League.

Strengths: Gose earns 70 grades on the 20-80 scouting scale for three tools: his arm, his center-field defense and his speed. He led the minor leagues with 76 steals in 96 attempts, and he'll be even more dangerous as he gets on base more often and refines his basestealing instincts. His arm helped him rack up 13 assists, third among SAL outfielders. Despite hitting just two homers in 2009, he has solid-average raw power.

Weaknesses: His weakest tool is his bat, and Gose will need time to rework his offensive approach and improve his pitch recognition. His power gets him in trouble as he takes wild hacks at times. He gives away too many at-bats and lacks a two-strike approach.

The Future: The Phillies believe in Gose and will give him plenty of time to learn and improve, but he may need 2,000 minor league at-bats. Some scouts liken his offensive upside to that of Carl Crawford, and Gose would have more defensive value. He'll advance to high Class A in 2010.

[AtascAstro]

sorry.  just thought he might replace bourn if he was deemed too expensive in the offseason.  i'd prefer to keep him and move lee or pence.

You realize we are talking about a guy currently in A-ball, right?  If he was capable of replacing Bourn next season then you should be very happy with this deal.

[Ty in Tampa]

I just explained the "Oswalt Inning™" to my Phillie-phan girlfriend. "Greeeaaat....", she says. "Is that like the "Lidge Inning?"

[HudsonHawk]

Weaknesses: His weakest tool is his bat, and Gose will need time to rework his offensive approach and improve his pitch recognition. His power gets him in trouble as he takes wild hacks at times. He gives away too many at-bats and lacks a two-strike approach.

An outfielder who's weakest skill is hitting.  Wonderful.

[Ron Brand]

You realize we are talking about a guy currently in A-ball, right?  If he was capable of replacing Bourn next season then you should be very happy with this deal.

Wait a minute, I thought this was for MLB-ready prospects!

[JimR]

I just explained the "Oswalt Inning™" to my Phillie-phan girlfriend. "Greeeaaat....", she says. "Is that like the "Lidge Inning"?

she did not like the perfect season Lidge had?

[Ron Brand]

I just explained the "Oswalt Inning™" to my Phillie-phan girlfriend. "Greeeaaat....", she says. "Is that like the "Lidge Inning?"

Tell her to think of them as a nice pair of bookends.

[Noe]

The real trade might be two-fold:

1. Get rid of a malcontent
2. Get payroll relief

If you planned to spend X amount of dollars the next two years, you want it to be for a top line player *AND* leader on the team.  If you don't get that, you are losing much more than games and retarding the ability of this organization to rebuild and/or reload to get back to the playoffs.  We see trades with the blinders of trade and get.  Organizations see trades for much more than that, while still focusing on the now and also the later.

That's why we're fans and they're baseball people.  

So think if you transfer the dollars saved to another player you could get in the FA market (that you could not have gotten otherwise) and that guy is also a great leader cut in the same mold as Bagwell.  *DING, DING, DING* - you win!

[Ty in Tampa]

she did not like the perfect season Lidge had?

Long forgotten, for some reason. I gave up trying to understand.

[Uncle Charlie]

Hat tip to Astros County for finding this: http://twitter.com/TBrownYahoo/status/19850167475

Scouting Report from BA on Gose:

6.      Anthony Gose, of   Born: Aug. 10, 1990 • B-T: L-L • Ht: 6-1 • Wt: 190
 Drafted: HS—Bellflower, Calif., 2008 (2nd round) • Signed by: Tim Kissner
Anthony GoseBackground: Gose had as much arm strength as any high school lefthander this decade, reaching 97 mph at times, but had no desire to pitch as a professional. He also had a shoulder problem as a senior, so the Phillies popped him as an outfielder and paid him a $772,000 bonus. His tools were evident in 2009, as managers rated him the best and fastest baserunner, best defensive outfielder and most exciting player in the South Atlantic League.

Strengths: Gose earns 70 grades on the 20-80 scouting scale for three tools: his arm, his center-field defense and his speed. He led the minor leagues with 76 steals in 96 attempts, and he'll be even more dangerous as he gets on base more often and refines his basestealing instincts. His arm helped him rack up 13 assists, third among SAL outfielders. Despite hitting just two homers in 2009, he has solid-average raw power.

Weaknesses: His weakest tool is his bat, and Gose will need time to rework his offensive approach and improve his pitch recognition. His power gets him in trouble as he takes wild hacks at times. He gives away too many at-bats and lacks a two-strike approach.

The Future: The Phillies believe in Gose and will give him plenty of time to learn and improve, but he may need 2,000 minor league at-bats. Some scouts liken his offensive upside to that of Carl Crawford, and Gose would have more defensive value. He'll advance to high Class A in 2010.

Stark reporting Gose to Toronto for ?  http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5420095

"Although the Phillies prospects have not been publicly identified, sources said the Astros will receive outfielder Anthony Gose as part of the deal and then send him to the Toronto Blue Jays. Gose is currently at Class A Clearwater in the Florida State League, where he was batting .263 with a team-high 110 hits. "

[Ron Brand]

she did not like the perfect season Lidge had?

Hey, flags fly forever. And Lidge doesn't whine.

[dirty steve]

You realize we are talking about a guy currently in A-ball, right?  If he was capable of replacing Bourn next season then you should be very happy with this deal.

i guess i should have specified which offseason.

[Bench]

Thank you Captain Obvious.

Well, with all the bullshit being thrown around, it's hard to catch up whose tongue is in who's cheek.

[JimR]

Hey, flags fly forever. And Lidge doesn't whine.

forgotten in all this "i'm smarter than he is" indignation over the trade is that Roy fucking quit on his team this year. i would not have wanted him around either. i'll leave baseball decisions to baseball men, at least until i have personal knowledge of the thinking that went into them.

[pots]

Gose to Toronto according to MLB Trade Rumors

[DVauthrin]

It's certainly a disappointing outcome, but that's the breaks of having no trade leverage and a lose-lose contract situation.

Please explain how the Astros had no leverage?   The Phillies may have been the only interested team now, but Oswalt isn't a free agent after this season.    He is under contract through 2011 with an option for 2012.    If you wanted a certain player and the Phillies balked, you hang up the phone and revisit the discussions in the offseason.

[Jose Cruz III]

According to the story I read Gose is going to Toronto. Let me go find it and link it. It also said San Diego and St. Louis come in late to the deal.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5420095

Although the Phillies prospects have not been publicly identified, sources said the Astros will receive outfielder Anthony Gose as part of the deal and then send him to the Toronto Blue Jays. Gose is currently at Class A Clearwater in the Florida State League, where he was batting .263 with a team-high 110 hits.

A baseball source told ESPN.com's Jerry Crasnick that the St. Louis Cardinals and San Diego Padres both made late efforts to land Oswalt, but got involved too late

[HudsonHawk]

Well, with all the bullshit being thrown around, it's hard to catch up whose tongue is in who's cheek.

Actually, I wasn't being tongue in cheek, I was commenting on the writer going around his ass to get to his elbow and butchering the rather simple explanation that Oswalt's buyout was upped from $1MM to $2MM.

[jbm]

I truly hope you are not an accountant.

No, I'm not, but are you figuring in the differing return on salary of Oswalt to Happ?  Sure, you pay him 16 million or whatever next year, and the buyout.  But, there is definitely a return on that 16 million, both in attendence at Roy's starts, and in franchise identity, things we are led to believe Drayton values.  Happ's returns are most likely a lower value than Oswalt.  But, you are right, there are other factors, and I am not qualified to assess the situation in it's entirety, but it still doesn't fit with my perception of what Drayton would push for.  

[DVauthrin]

The real trade might be two-fold:

1. Get rid of a malcontent
2. Get payroll relief

If you planned to spend X amount of dollars the next two years, you want it to be for a top line player *AND* leader on the team.  If you don't get that, you are losing much more than games and retarding the ability of this organization to rebuild and/or reload to get back to the playoffs.  We see trades with the blinders of trade and get.  Organizations see trades for much more than that, while still focusing on the now and also the later.

That's why we're fans and they're baseball people.  

So think if you transfer the dollars saved to another player you could get in the FA market (that you could not have gotten otherwise) and that guy is also a great leader cut in the same mold as Bagwell.  *DING, DING, DING* - you win!

Problem is the Astros are paying 10-11 million of Oswalt's salary next season.    So they aren't saving that much if at all.

[JimR]

According to the story I read Gose is going to Toronto. Let me go find it and link it. It also said San Diego and St. Louis come in late to the deal.

already linked.

[astrosfan76]

BA on Villar:

Scouts rave about Villar's range and easy actions, saying he could play defense in the big leagues right now. "Defensively, it's all there—60 arm, very good range," one scout told us recently. Villar runs very well and is aggressive in terms of stealing and taking extra bases. Like Gose, he'll need repetitions to refine his offensive game. Villar likes to swing at fastballs early in the count and rarely walks. The switch-hitter has fared marginally better from the left side this season, batting .270/.333/.363 with both of his home runs.

[Bench]

No, I'm not, but are you figuring in the differing return on salary of Oswalt to Happ?  

Next year is Happ's third year.  He's not breaking the bank. 

[Ron Brand]

Problem is the Astros are paying 10-11 million of Oswalt's salary next season.    So they aren't saving that much if at all.

I guess they're saving $5MM this year and $5-7MM next year, so that's $10-12MM overall.

[Ron Brand]

Astros PC at 4 CST.

[MusicMan]

Apaparently jury duty has saved me from the majority of the rending of garments.  But it sure doesn't look like a great return.

But who knows... at the time, it looked like we got more for Billy Doran than for Larry Andersen.

[JimR]

Apaparently jury duty has saved me from the majority of the rending of garments.  But it sure doesn't look like a great return.

But who knows... at the time, it looked like we got more for Billy Doran than for Larry Andersen.

plenty of rending still going on. some of these experts haven't posted in weeks. they have been studying up, don't you know.

[Jose Cruz III]

already linked.

Oops. There must be a Cabrera in the deal.

[MusicMan]

plenty of rending still going on. some of these experts haven't posted in weeks. they have been studying up, don't you know.

Getting Roy out of the clubhouse is addition by subtraction.  Still more of that to be done.

[Ron Brand]

Getting Roy out of the clubhouse is addition by subtraction.  Still more of that to be done.

True.

[Astro_Horn]

Please explain how the Astros had no leverage?   The Phillies may have been the only interested team now, but Oswalt isn't a free agent after this season.    He is under contract through 2011 with an option for 2012.    If you wanted a certain player and the Phillies balked, you hang up the phone and revisit the discussions in the offseason.

And I'm sure you'd be just thrilled with the outcome of those 'offseason discussions' if Roy finishes another season on the DL after continuing to run his mouth about the organization.  

I realize that your perception of Roy O. is likely biased, but you need to take a look at how his abilities are perceived outside of the Astros fan community.  When you look at Roy, you probably see a franchise player who once stared crippling pressure in the face and made franchise history with an NLCS masterpiece, most other people see a 33 year old with dwindling ability and a bad attitude, who also hasn't been a true marquee pitcher in over 2 years.

[Lurch]

Problem is the Astros are paying 10-11 million of Oswalt's salary next season.    So they aren't saving that much if at all.

You can't say that, as you don't know the full equation yet.  The trade is Oswalt + 11MM ~= Happ + X + Y.  It's not until you know who X and Y are, and then decide a value to all 4 players can you say with any certainty how much of Oswalt's salary "the Astros are paying" next year.

Oh, and if Roy pulls in an extra 10,000 asses per game (which he doesnt) and they spend $30/each (and they dont) that's $6MM in ticket revenue.  Even if your $11MM calc is true, they're saving $7MM in salary at a loss of $6MM in questionable ticket revenue.

[hostros7]

I guess they're saving $5MM this year and $5-7MM next year, so that's $10-12MM overall.

Which could add a nice piece, especially if LB's option is decline or restructured.  For anyone not a scout who hasn't seen these guys play, speculating on the prospects received, while entertaining in the dull summer months this year, is pretty futile.  I'll be blindly optimistic that this savings turns into Carl Crawford until he signs with the Yankees.

[Reuben]

And I'm sure you'd be just thrilled with the outcome of those 'offseason discussions' if Roy finishes another season on the DL after continuing to run his mouth about the organization.  

I realize that your perception of Roy O. is likely biased, but you need to take a look at how his abilities are perceived outside of the Astros fan community.  When you look at Roy, you probably see a franchise player who once stared crippling pressure in the face and made franchise history with an NLCS masterpiece, most other people see a 33 year old with dwindling ability and a bad attitude, who also hasn't been a true marquee pitcher in over 2 years.

He's a good #2, which is all the Phillies need him to be. They had their Ace already.

[Random]

Official Per Footer:

The Astros will hold press conference re: their acquisition of LHP J.A. Happ, OF Anthony Gose & SS Jonathan Villar for Roy Oswalt at 4 CT.

[Phil_in_CS]

Getting Roy out of the clubhouse is addition by subtraction.  Still more of that to be done.

And we can hope young master Happ isn't too unhappy about the move.

[hostros7]

Official Per Footer:

The Astros will hold press conference re: their acquisition of LHP J.A. Happ, OF Anthony Gose & SS Jonathan Villar for Roy Oswalt at 4 CT.

Just got the official press release from the Astros with the same prospects listed.

[Lurch]

Actually, I wasn't being tongue in cheek, I was commenting on the writer going around his ass to get to his elbow and butchering the rather simple explanation that Oswalt's buyout was upped from $1MM to $2MM.

"Bob Garber, the agent for Oswalt, said if the Phillies don't pick up his option, his salary in '11 would increase to $18 million. "
link

[Noe]

According to the story I read Gose is going to Toronto. Let me go find it and link it. It also said San Diego and St. Louis come in late to the deal.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5420095

St. Louis thought the Astros weren't serious but now fear the Halladay-Hamels-Oswalt trifecta.  It could have been Carpenter-Wainwright-Oswalt instead, but they decided that Houston was playing chicken with them and they now are on the outside looking in trying to figure out how in the heck did they lose out on a chance to obtain a pitcher who all but begged to go to their organization.  

[JimR]

He's a good #2, which is all the Phillies need him to be. They had their Ace already.

maybe a good #3.

[Noe]

Problem is the Astros are paying 10-11 million of Oswalt's salary next season.    So they aren't saving that much if at all.

I'm not sure you're correct on that one.  Just saying.

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

So what kind of corner IF prospects do the Jays have?

[Lurch]

So what kind of corner IF prospects do the Jays have?

Speedy, up the middle guys.  Try to keep up

[Jose Cruz III]

St. Louis thought the Astros weren't serious but now fear the Halladay-Hamels-Oswalt trifecta.  It could have been Carpenter-Wainwright-Oswalt instead, but they decided that Houston was playing chicken with them and they now are on the outside looking in trying to figure out how in the heck did they lose out on a chance to obtain a pitcher who all but begged to go to their organization.  

The prospects might/might not pan out, but if the Turds got screwed in this deal it instantly makes it better.

[Noe]

The prospects might/might not pan out, but if the Turds got screwed in this deal it instantly makes it better.

The best part about it is they screwed themselves.  Good luck facing the Phils in the playoffs everyone.  (I hope Brendan Ryan has a great post-season too, just to be fair and all)

[DVauthrin]

And I'm sure you'd be just thrilled with the outcome of those 'offseason discussions' if Roy finishes another season on the DL after continuing to run his mouth about the organization.  

I realize that your perception of Roy O. is likely biased, but you need to take a look at how his abilities are perceived outside of the Astros fan community.  When you look at Roy, you probably see a franchise player who once stared crippling pressure in the face and made franchise history with an NLCS masterpiece, most other people see a 33 year old with dwindling ability and a bad attitude, who also hasn't been a true marquee pitcher in over 2 years.

Roy Oswalt hasn't made fewer than 30 starts in a season since 2003.   Also, while he may not be an ace, he's definitely a solid number 2 starter on almost every MLB club.

So again, the Astros had plenty of leverage in this situation.    He was under contract for next season, and he was considered the best pitcher available via trade.     That wasn't likely to change in the offseason and teams wouldn't have to take as big of a financial hit.    The bottom line is the team could have waited if they didn't receive a good enough offer.

[Cajun1300]

If the Astros just swapped Oswalt and $11MM for Happ, Gose and Villar, they have been officially anally raped without lube. 

Yeah, but the Phils will repay Drayton for the bulldozer.

[Ron Brand]

Footer just referred to Roy's demands as 'unreasonable.'

[Ron Brand]

Ha. Also from Fuckhouse:

Unlike the absurd hatred a few of you are spewing re: prospects you know nothing about, I choose to read up on the new guys before opining.

[MusicMan]

Footer just referred to Roy's demands as 'unreasonable.'

Where?

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

Holy shit, Fuckhouse.  Good show!

[BUWebguy]

The best part about it is they screwed themselves.  Good luck facing the Phils in the playoffs everyone.  (I hope Brendan Ryan has a great post-season too, just to be fair and all)

Of course, the Phils have to make the playoffs first. They're currently 3.5 out in the division, 2.5 out (third place) in the WC.

[Lurch]

Where?

Twitter

[DVauthrin]

You can't say that, as you don't know the full equation yet.  The trade is Oswalt + 11MM ~= Happ + X + Y.  It's not until you know who X and Y are, and then decide a value to all 4 players can you say with any certainty how much of Oswalt's salary "the Astros are paying" next year.

Oh, and if Roy pulls in an extra 10,000 asses per game (which he doesnt) and they spend $30/each (and they dont) that's $6MM in ticket revenue.  Even if your $11MM calc is true, they're saving $7MM in salary at a loss of $6MM in questionable ticket revenue.

Fair enough.   I'm not calculating anything though.   The 11 million number is what is being reported by most sources breaking this trade.  

[Noe]

Which could add a nice piece, especially if LB's option is decline or restructured.  For anyone not a scout who hasn't seen these guys play, speculating on the prospects received, while entertaining in the dull summer months this year, is pretty futile.  I'll be blindly optimistic that this savings turns into Carl Crawford until he signs with the Yankees.

The thing is, both Oswalt and Berkman were given major dollars a few years ago (and then Lee was too).  Not only was it high dollar amounts, but they were multi-year contracts, meaning Drayton put his faith in three core guys to conduct themselves beyond just in field performance, but in leadership as well.  These guys were tagged as the heir apparent to Bagwell and Biggio, who not only earned dollars and a set long term lifestyle in Houston because of homeruns and hits, but because they led other men to perform at peek throughout the tenure they were here.  They led by example, something a Brett Myers is ironically displaying this season for the team that Roy Oswalt has yet to learn to do.

So it was time to give up on the ideal that Oswalt was/is a team leader.  The other two (Berkman and Lee) perhaps fall under the same scrutiny of lack of real ROI in those terms as well.  So be it.  In order to turn this franchise around from where it is to where it once was under Bagwell and Biggio is to get someone else who is serious about being the clubhouse leader into this clubhouse.  Are the Astros trading for such a guy right now?  No, they're not, no one is fooling themselves that they are.  But by clearing out the high dollars being spent, the process begins to pass the baton to other younger, more inclined to be that Bagwell (under the watchful eye of none other than Bagwell himself).

Today is the day that it shifts and this may only be the start.  Don't lose sight of the larger, more panoramic picture that may be right in front of all our eyes that we fail to see because we have blinders on that have "Fan" written all over them.

[MusicMan]

Astros get Brett Wallace for Gose

This sounds much better.  Wallace is nearly MLB-ready at 1b.

[Reuben]

In a bizarre twist, Jon Heyman, of all people, twitters: "think houston did fine getting happ and gose in oswalt deal. philly has best rotation top-3 in baseball, too."

[domedogs]

this makes me feel better: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/07/astros-to-send-anthony-gose-to-blue-jays.html

[Lurch]

Oh holy shit Footer

"And one more thing. By the end of the day we're all going to think this was a good day for Houston. Please let it play out. Thank you"

[DVauthrin]

Astros get Brett Wallace for Gose

This sounds much better.  Wallace is nearly MLB-ready at 1b.

There's the centerpiece.    Nice job Ed Wade.

[Noe]

Of course, the Phils have to make the playoffs first. They're currently 3.5 out in the division, 2.5 out (third place) in the WC.

They get Oswalt, they get Utley back soon.  Halladay-Hamels-Oswalt makes for a prolong losing streak to be almost unthinkable at this point and prolonged winning streaks a great possibility.  If the Phils screw this up, it's their own doing, no one else.

[JimR]

Ha. Also from Fuckhouse:

i love her even more.

[domedogs]

please excuse my previous FireEdWade.com post.

I feel better now.

[At Ease]

Personally, I think that's a pretty stupid series of tweets from Alyson.

Roy's concession/compensation to the trade actually looks pretty reasonable.

I can speak only for myself, but I don't like this trade precisely because I have read up on the prospects.

And the Astros had to have a ML ready pitcher in the trade to have 5 pitchers this year?  Huh?  Are the Stros playing for anything this year?

[JimR]

Astros get Brett Wallace for Gose

This sounds much better.  Wallace is nearly MLB-ready at 1b.

which may mean there are discussions for Berkman.

[cc]

Astros get Brett Wallace for Gose

This sounds much better.  Wallace is nearly MLB-ready at 1b.

Hey, and the Turdinals thought they had come in too late to be part of the deal...thanks to them, in a roundabout way.

[Mr. Happy]

I've stayed silent throughout this thread because I knew nothing of the details and wasn't going to speak out of the side of my neck about a thing I had nothing to do with. This trade can't be evaluated now. It's too early. Way too early. Based upon Mr. Wade's track record, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and congratulating him for a fine trade.

[BudGirl]

Good Gosh.

I go to a meeting, the deal gets finalized and now all this.

I even have a friend calling me saying Wade is the devil and horrible.  I think Drayton was as ready as Roy for him to be gone.  He's gone.  I'm okay with him being gone.

We won't know crap about this deal until we know how the prospects turn out.  If they are all turds then yeah, the Astros got it in the butt.  But we won't know tonight.

[hostros7]

Astros get Brett Wallace for Gose

This sounds much better.  Wallace is nearly MLB-ready at 1b.

Chance of Puma to LAA after DLee quashed the deal?

[DVauthrin]

FWIW, Wallace was considered the 27th best prospect in baseball by BA going into this season.

[roadrunner]

Astros get Brett Wallace for Gose

This sounds much better.  Wallace is nearly MLB-ready at 1b.

Ok, now I am coming around on it.

[JimR]

Personally, I think that's a pretty stupid series of tweets from Alyson.

Roy's concession/compensation to the trade actually looks pretty reasonable.

I can speak only for myself, but I don't like this trade precisely because I have read up on the prospects.

And the Astros had to have a ML ready pitcher in the trade to have 5 pitchers this year?  Huh?  Are the Stros playing for anything this year?

personally, i don't give a fuck what you think about Alyson's tweets. you should not have been looking at them, you pervert.

[Ty in Tampa]

I even have a friend calling me saying Wade is the devil and horrible.

Pretty sure I know who this is.

[Noe]

i love her even more.

She has to fight ignorance all along the way while maintaining dignity and grace and some amount of charm about it.  I love it when she loses her cool at times though.  "Hey Apollo, I thought you said to play it cool?"  "That WAS Cool!"

[pots]

Astros get Brett Wallace for Gose

This sounds much better.  Wallace is nearly MLB-ready at 1b.

and there is the heir apparant.  

[Astro_Horn]

Roy Oswalt hasn't made fewer than 30 starts in a season since 2003.   Also, while he may not be an ace, he's definitely a solid number 2 starter on almost every MLB club.

So again, the Astros had plenty of leverage in this situation.    He was under contract for next season, and he was considered the best pitcher available via trade.     That wasn't likely to change in the offseason and teams wouldn't have to take as big of a financial hit.    The bottom line is the team could have waited if they didn't receive a good enough offer.

So 33 year old fringe #2 starters are now worth $16MM per year?  Were you also the mastermind behind the Carlos Lee contract?

[BUWebguy]

Wallace was a third baseman until this year, right? Anyone know/read anything about his abilities there? Could he be moved back there if Berkman is still around next year?

[Lurch]

So it can't be straight up Wallace for Gose, right?

[Noe]

which may mean there are discussions for Berkman.

*DING, DING, DING*

[pots]

which may mean there are discussions for Berkman.

or they just aren't planning on picking up his option.

[Ron Brand]

So it can't be straight up Wallace for Gose, right?

Looks like it is, at least so far in the Internet Rumor Machine.

[domedogs]

Wallace was a third baseman until this year, right? Anyone know/read anything about his abilities there? Could he be moved back there if Berkman is still around next year?

I recall Callis stating in a chat last year that there was no way that Wallace could stay at 3B.  That is the reason he was dealt in the first place.  Premium bat, average defender at 1B.  

[JimR]

*DING, DING, DING*

my friend implied this week that there are.

[At Ease]

personally, i don't give a fuck what you think about Alyson's tweets. you should not have been looking at them, you pervert.

I could imagine, buddy.

She usually has such nice tweets.

[OregonStrosFan]

which may mean there are discussions for Berkman.

Hadn't thought of it in that context.  I had read it more along the lines of "don't bother asking us to pick up your option next year Lance."

[Noe]

Wallace was a third baseman until this year, right? Anyone know/read anything about his abilities there? Could he be moved back there if Berkman is still around next year?

Or CJ to first or Lee to first, Wallace to LF, or Lee gets traded, Berkman moves to LF or CJ to 1st, Wallace to third, Berkman to LF... all sorts of possibilities with young guys ready to come up to the majors.  When Ryan Braun was being held back in AAA it was because he was still a horrible third baseman who could hit.  Now look where he plays.

Get how this can work out?  All sorts of options now for the Astros as long as they have prospects to handle these good to have situations.

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

Astros get Brett Wallace for Gose

This sounds much better.  Wallace is nearly MLB-ready at 1b.

I took a glance at BP's list of Jays prospects and immediately saw Wallace.  And then figured that it was a long shot.  I'm glad I'm wrong.

I'll bet that the Jays get some cash in addition to Gose.

[Jose Cruz III]

Astros get Brett Wallace for Gose

This sounds much better.  Wallace is nearly MLB-ready at 1b.

Nice. His report makes him sound like Joey Votto.

[austro]

So it can't be straight up Wallace for Gose, right?

We're letting Gose go for a first baseman? Fucking Wade.

[dirty steve]

Wallace was a third baseman until this year, right? Anyone know/read anything about his abilities there? Could he be moved back there if Berkman is still around next year?

i heard he was moved to 1B after his third base defense was called into question.  i believe it is why the cardinals moved him to oakland in the matt holliday deal.

[Reuben]

I just want to say, I agree with Jim, Budgirl and others; I am glad Roy is gone. He didn't want to be here, he turned into a total diva (as opposed to just an occasional diva earlier in his career- remember the public flap he had with Bagwell after he hit a batter right after giving up a big HR?), so fuck him, good riddance.

The prospects thing, I don't really know shit other than what I've read today online, scouting reports etc. Sounds like Wallace was the real centerpiece, and that he can hit, although his glove is in question it seems. Happ seems like a solid MLB pitcher, and Villar, though ranked somewhat low among Phillies' prospects, sounds like he could turn out to be an exciting player, years from now. So who the hell knows if they did great, or crappy in this deal. Also, how much say did Wade/Heck have, vs. McLane saying "enough! I just want to make the deal already!", we'll probably never know.

[pots]

my friend implied this week that there are.

Angels? Can't imagine Rangers given the Cantu pickup today.  He's got a NTC too, so I imagine he could pull the, sure if you pickup my option crap as well.

[Noe]

my friend implied this week that there are.

Trading Oswalt is a message.  It is a message some others in the clubhouse get.  In fact, it is several messages rolled into one.  What Jason Castro thinks of this trade is entirely different from what a Lance Berkman will think.  Castro may look at this as an opportunity because it opens doors or begins the process of opening doors to make this a clubhouse owned by young leaders ready to take on that responsibility.  Berkman will see it entirely differently and a trade would be something that he would welcome because he cannot and should not go through a whole new world here in Houston that quite frankly everyone is ready to have happen.

[MusicMan]

Wallace was a third baseman until this year, right? Anyone know/read anything about his abilities there? Could he be moved back there if Berkman is still around next year?

From BP:

The Good: Wallace is an offensive powerhouse with a quick, compact swing that should lead to .300 batting averages in the big leagues and the strength to hit 40 doubles annually with 20-25 home runs. He has great baseball instincts, to go with soft hands and a solid arm.
The Bad: Wallace's bat is his only tool, as he's not athletic and slow. While he held his own at third base on balls hit to him, his range was extremely limited, and he will be moved to first base in 2010. While he had a reputation as an on-base machine in college, he's not even drawn one walk per ten ABs as a pro, with just 62 unintentional walks 734 career at-bats.

ETA: Whether by trade, retirement, or FA, I think chances are slim that Puma is here next year.

[austro]

Angels? Can't imagine Rangers given the Cantu pickup today.  He's got a NTC too, so I imagine he could pull the, sure if you pickup my option crap as well.

Who is the Angels' DH? Morales will be back next year, so they presumably wouldn't need Lance there. Unless they think that they can get away without having to pick up his option for next year.

[Bench]

We're letting Gose go for a first baseman? Fucking Wade.

It's not going to happen.  Wade can't pass up a middle reliever.

[Alkie]

he's not even drawn one walk per ten ABs as a pro

Well, cumoneensonny!   You'll fit right in around here.

[MikeyBoy]

We're letting Gose go for a first baseman? Fucking Wade.

Thanks, Agent Ed.

[JimR]

Well, cumoneensonny!   You'll fit right in around here.

so ignore his .300 avg, his 40 doubles, and his 20-25 HRs. MFer cannot draw a walk!

fuck BP.

[Bench]

Wallace is official.  Going to RR.

[cc]

From BP:
ETA: Whether by trade, retirement, or FA, I think chances are slim that Puma is here next year.

Well, according to HH, if you can "pour piss from a boot" you can play 1B.  So if he can hit .300 and provide lots of power and reasonable OBP, he can be slow and poor defensively.

[MusicMan]

fuck BP.

In fairness, they have him a 5-star prospect and second only to Drabek in the Jays' system.

[Ron Brand]

Footer just called Lee 'the most untradeable player in the history of untradeable players.'

[BudGirl]

Am I to understand that there are others deals happening with the guys Wade got?  Work is getting in the way of me following things very closely.

So, can someone give me a cliff note version of what the Astros have gotten today and what they have given away?  Pretty please.

[jbm]

So who the hell knows if they did great, or crappy in this deal. Also, how much say did Wade/Heck have, vs. McLane saying "enough! I just want to make the deal already!", we'll probably never know.

nice summary.  I am glad Roy is gone, as I think the talk about leaders has a lot of merit.

[Reuben]

presser on mlb.com right now.

[Bench]

Am I to understand that there are others deals happening with the guys Wade got?  Work is getting in the way of me following things very closely.

So, can someone give me a cliff note version of what the Astros have gotten today and what they have given away?  Pretty please.

Gose flipped to the Blue Jays for Wallace.

We lose, Oswalt.  We get, Happ, Wallace, and Villar.

[Navin R Johnson]

Wallace was nails at ASU, I really enjoyed watching him hit and am really excited that the Astros landed him.

Also, on Roy and attendance.  It is a myth.  Go look at the #'s, they barely move when he pitches.  Here are his last 3 starts and the day before or after.   Last Saturday Roy's start drew 31.5, Friday night with Wandy on the mound they drew 30.5...the previous Saturday home game drew 37.5 with Meyers on the mound.

Roy pitched Thursday against the pirates and they drew 24.4, the day before they drew 23.2 with Moehler on the mound.

Roy threw on a Tuesday against the Giants and drew 29.3, the next day the Astros drew 29.7 for a Brett Meyers start.

Attendance spikes are driven by stupid shit like bobbleheads and cheap shitty food, not things like who the starting pitcher is, sans Strasburg.

[JimR]

tell us if he says there are other deals being explored.

[austro]

In fairness, they have him a 5-star prospect and second only to Drabek in the Jays' system.

Based on my extensive research (i.e., reading the TZ), this seems oddly lop-sided in the Astros' favor. I must be missing something about Gose.

[Bench]

Wade says we didn't need Gose because Bourn isn't going anywhere.  Thus, the flip.  Wallace is "a hitting machine."

He was in the Halladay trade last year. 

[Anit]

ken rosenthal on twitter:

Source: Berkman "in play," discussions taking place. Deal far from guaranteed. Berkman, like Oswalt, has full no-trade. #Astros #MLB     9 minutes ago  via web 

[Bench]

Villar going to Lancaster.

[Navin R Johnson]

There has to be more to the Wallace trade. 

[DVauthrin]

So 33 year old fringe #2 starters are now worth $16MM per year?

That question has nothing to do with the discussion about leverage.      You were claiming the team had no leverage in trading Oswalt, and that simply isn't/wasn't true.      

That said, Barry Zito got more per season from the Giants, Derek Lowe got 15 million dollars a season from Atlanta, and Burnett got 12 mil a year from the Yankees. Considering those contracts and what Sabathia and Halladay signed for, Oswalt's contract is not out of line.   His 2010 performance doesn't reflect that it's out of line either.

[AtascAstro]

tell us if he says there are other deals being explored.

"We will actively stay engaged right up until the deadline"

[pots]

There has to be more to the Wallace trade. 

I think the hand job that the Astros got from the Phillies went to toronto.

[JimR]

ken rosenthal on twitter:

Source: Berkman "in play," discussions taking place. Deal far from guaranteed. Berkman, like Oswalt, has full no-trade. #Astros #MLB     9 minutes ago  via web 

this is what i think.

[MusicMan]

There has to be more to the Wallace trade. 

According to Jays GM, they had tried to get Gose in the Halladay deal.  Think he will be a GG CF.

[pots]

"We will actively stay engaged right up until the deadline"

and he more than hinted that he expects to be able to trade past the deadline (given it's doubtful anyone claims Berkman)

[OregonStrosFan]

Footer (via Twitter): No Carlos was not traded. To review, he is the most untradeable player in the history of untradeable players.

[Jose Cruz III]

Footer just called Lee 'the most untradeable player in the history of untradeable players.'

I can agree with that.

[Bench]

According to Jays GM, they had tried to get Gose in the Halladay deal.  Think he will be a GG CF.

Pretty much opting for defense over offense.  Just as the Astros need to do the opposite.  Good deal.

[hostros7]

this is what i think.

LAAofA was interested in DLee, why not Berkman, right?  Two perennial producers having a down year.  The dollars aren't very different if the option doesn't have to be exercised.

[drew corleone]

According to Jays GM, they had tried to get Gose in the Halladay deal.  Think he will be a GG CF.

Damn... sure would be nice to have one of those... what's that?

[Jose Cruz III]

Just watched some footage on Wallace. He looks like he can hit. Looks like he has had a twinkie or two, also.

[cc]

Footer (via Twitter): No Carlos was not traded. To review, he is the most untradeable player in the history of untradeable players.

This tweet proves she can be unfailingly polite and patient as well.

[Noe]

ken rosenthal on twitter:

Source: Berkman "in play," discussions taking place. Deal far from guaranteed. Berkman, like Oswalt, has full no-trade. #Astros #MLB     9 minutes ago  via web 

Berkman is ready to leave, he is not making public statements and demands, he just knows (and has told the Astros) that if they need to trade him to rebuild, he'll work with them on the no-trade aspects.

[Duman]

Have enjoyed the reactions to the trade today.  It has caused me to go back and re-read a glorious thread that occured when Drew Sutton was announced as the PTBN to be sent to Cincy for Kepp.  Here are some highlights:

From Dick Justice (via Tweeter)...

"So Drew Sutton IS the player to be named later in the Jeff Keppinger trade. Nice going, Eddie. Go trade a couple more prospects."

why does it matter where good players come from? all this hand-wringing over this trade is mystifying to me.

And to sum up the discussion:

hey, here is the general response to you:

who gives a shit what you "question?" you are nobody, and it is none of your fucking business what decisions ownership and/or baseball people make about personnel moves or the payroll. just watch the games or play your fantasy team. my guess is that you do more of the former than the latter.

In regards to today's trade..... yeah what he said.

[OregonStrosFan]

Just watched some footage on Wallace. He looks like he can hit. Looks like he has had a twinkie or two, also.

Baseball Prospectus is already spouting the Wallace hate, so I see that as a HUGE plus.  Doubled my excitement about the kid!

[pots]

Wade refused to talk about any possible trades (as he usually does)

[geezerdonk]

Good trade now - could be a great trade later.
I sure hope Wallace is up soon and Lance is either in LA or keeping Pedro company.

[Reuben]

Roy is one thing, but I would actually be a bit sad to see Berkman leave. I realize it may be for the best, but Lance, while he was not Jeff Bagwell by any stretch, was a class act, and a great hitter.

[pots]

Good trade now - could be a great trade later.
I sure hope Wallace is up soon and Lance is either in LA or keeping Pedro company.

From what Wade had said, they want him in the minors to work on a few things first.  

[JimR]

Roy is one thing, but I would actually be a bit sad to see Berkman leave. I realize it may be for the best, but Lance, while he was not Jeff Bagwell by any stretch, was a class act, and a great hitter.

agreed. i like Lance Berkman and wish he could retire as an Astro. i think Noe nailed it, though--he may be ready to leave for his own good and for the Astros' good.

[Navin R Johnson]

Roy is one thing, but I would actually be a bit sad to see Berkman leave. I realize it may be for the best, but Lance, while he was not Jeff Bagwell by any stretch, was a class act, and a great hitter.

Couldn't agree more.

[Jose Cruz III]

Roy is one thing, but I would actually be a bit sad to see Berkman leave. I realize it may be for the best, but Lance, while he was not Jeff Bagwell by any stretch, was a class act, and a great hitter.

Agreed. Maybe they can get some prospects for him and then re-sign him at a reduced rate next year.

[cc]

Baseball Prospectus is already spouting the Wallace hate, so I see that as a HUGE plus.  Doubled my excitement about the kid!

Wallace was picked only 3 slots after Castro and 2 after Smoak, by the 3rdinals, right?  He's been traded 3 times already, this time for a weak-hitting CF with great wheels.  I wonder what infectious disease he has to get moved around so much.  Hope H-town is the antidote and that he prospers for many years in what is about to be a gaping hole at 1B.

[Noe]

Roy is one thing, but I would actually be a bit sad to see Berkman leave. I realize it may be for the best, but Lance, while he was not Jeff Bagwell by any stretch, was a class act, and a great hitter.

Born free, as free as the wind blows
As free as the grass grows
Born free to follow your heart

Live free and beauty surrounds you
The world still astounds you
Each time you look at a star

Stay free, where no walls divide you
You're free as the roaring tide
So there's no need to hide

Born free, and life is worth living
But only worth living
'cause you're born free

(Stay free, where no walls divide you)
You're free as the roaring tide
So there's no need to hide

Born free, and life is worth living
But only worth living
'cause you're born free

[JackAstro]

Footer (via Twitter): No Carlos was not traded. To review, he is the most untradeable player in the history of untradeable players.

She is really selling 2007/8 Jason Giambi short on this one.

[cc]

agreed. i like Lance Berkman and wish he could retire as an Astro. i think Noe nailed it, though--he may be ready to leave for his own good and for the Astros' good.

Lance cannot go until after the trade deadline.  He's giving his testimony at Faith and Family night this Saturday, isn't he?  Can't happen.

[austro]

She is really selling 2007/8 Jason Giambi short on this one.

Or 2008 Zito.

[geezerdonk]

Agreed. Maybe they can get some prospects for him and then re-sign him at a reduced rate next year.

I'd go for that.

[Noe]

Lance cannot go until after the trade deadline.  He's giving his testimony at Faith and Family night this Saturday, isn't he?  Can't happen.

There is new fangled thing called video and all... w'all, they sit the guy in front of a camera and darn if that thing doesn't take moving pictures with sound and all.  It's like he's there in person... only he ain't!

[Jose Cruz III]

Or 2008 Zito.

Or the $65 million version of Chan Ho Park.

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

Lance cannot go until after the trade deadline.  He's giving his testimony at Faith and Family night this Saturday, isn't he?  Can't happen.

Blum can step in.  For both roles (1B and F&F)

[Noe]

Agreed. Maybe they can get some prospects for him and then re-sign him at a reduced rate next year.

Odd that a guy who goes by Jose Cruz would post this.  Maybe more like ironic but that is overused by me.

[Noe]

I'd go for that.

GD, sometimes you just gotta let go, ya' know. 

[Jacksonian]

Wallace was questioned as a 3B when he was drafted by the Cards.  I have always heard he could work to be a good 1B.  His bat is supposed to be great.  I've only heard him talked about as a 3, 4, 5 hitter.  There were a number of pudnits who thought the Astros should have tabbed him (or Smoak) instead of Castro.  I'm pretty sure BP is one of them.

[cc]

There is new fangled thing called video and all... w'all, they sit the guy in front of a camera and darn if that thing doesn't take moving pictures with sound and all.  It's like he's there in person... only he ain't!

Or Drayton could be his replacement.

[Jacksonian]

Wade, Heck, etc have scouted the hell out of these guys.

So either they really believe in them, or Drayton is pulling some serious strings on this.

So really it was Wade, Heck, etc scouting the hell out of them AND working the Phillies and Jays at the same time.

Kick ass!

[Noe]

Or Drayton could be his replacement.

Or Drayton can have a Lance bobblehead on his lap and do a ventriloquist act whilest giving his err  Lance's errr  the testimony.

[Jose Cruz III]

Odd that a guy who goes by Jose Cruz would post this.  Maybe more like ironic but that is overused by me.

I felt the same way with Mike Lamb, oddly enough.

[MusicMan]

Wallace was picked only 3 slots after Castro and 2 after Smoak, by the 3rdinals, right?  He's been traded 3 times already, this time for a weak-hitting CF with great wheels. 

OK, let's nip this in the bud.

1.  He was drafted by the Co-ards ONLY as trade bait.  They never believed he'd play 3b, and he sure as all hell wasn't supplanting Pooholes.
2.  He was sent by the A's as essentially a sidebar deal to the Holliday deal, b/c the A's like Taylor (who is now their #1 prospect) as a better fit.

In my view, the multiple trades mean NOTHING about the kid as a player.

[BudGirl]

So really it was Wade, Heck, etc scouting the hell out of them AND working the Phillies and Jays at the same time.

Kick ass!

No, haven't you read, Wade doesn't know what he is doing.

[Jacksonian]

OK, let's nip this in the bud.

1.  He was drafted by the Co-ards ONLY as trade bait.  They never believed he'd play 3b, and he sure as all hell wasn't supplanting Pooholes.
2.  He was sent by the A's as essentially a sidebar deal to the Holliday deal, b/c the A's like Taylor (who is now their #1 prospect) as a better fit.

In my view, the multiple trades mean NOTHING about the kid as a player.

Sure it does.  It means he's valued enough by other teams to be wanted in trade.  That's a good thing.

And, the best part of all this is that, assuming he's not dealt again, he gets to learn 1B and major league hitting from Jeff Bagwell.

[MusicMan]

And, the best part of all this is that, assuming he's not dealt again, he gets to learn 1B and major league hitting from Jeff Bagwell.

Alkie's "RIP Boner" post?

Reverse it.

[MusicMan]

http://twitter.com/Joelsherman1/status/19853337325

AL special advisor to GM tells me now buzz #Astros might move Berkman, do what owner McLane hasn't wanted in past: embrace rebuilding

[AtascAstro]

So just to review...

Ed Wade - capable MLB trader, does not have to include a throw-in player in every deal, nobody's fool

Drayton McLane Jr - willing to put cash in the pot to get deal done, capable of listening to his baseball people, not blind to present reality

Just reviewing the list before we get too far into Berkman discussions...

[EasTexAstro]

Happ will start tomorrow.

[JimR]

funny how the two guys who rushed in here to bitch and moan must have gone outside to mow the lawn or something.

[Ron Brand]

I think getting Wallace for Gose makes this day's work pretty damn tough to bitch about. He's a closer-to-ready Singleton. Hard to top that.

[JimR]

I think getting Wallace for Gose makes this day's work pretty damn tough to bitch about. He's a closer-to-ready Singleton. Hard to top that.

oh, some folks can bitch about anything.

[Ron Brand]

Well, yeah, Wallace doesn't walk. Fucking Ed.

[Bench]

I think getting Wallace for Gose makes this day's work pretty damn tough to bitch about. He's a closer-to-ready Singleton. Hard to top that.

Bullshit.  It's only because Wallace is white and Drayton didn't want the black Singleton to be the centerpiece of the deal.



(I have no idea about the race of either player).

[BudGirl]

oh, some folks can bitch about anything.

some people don't like Wade and will hate whatever he does/doesn't do.  i'm rather tired of those people.

[BudGirl]

Pretty sure I know who this is.

I'm pretty sure you do.

[JackAstro]

Still haven't seen it reported definitively – did they or did they not receive lube in the deal?

[hostros7]

Still haven't seen it reported definitively – did they or did they not receive lube in the deal?

Perhaps even a reach-around.

[MusicMan]

Still haven't seen it reported definitively – did they or did they not receive lube in the deal?

They got some of that fancy KY his and hers shit.

[NeilT]

I was at a game earlier this week with a banker, who argued that any payment by the Astros in the Lidge trade was at least in part the bonus payments the Astros didn't make to draftees under Purpura, sans some of the uncertainty. 

[JackAstro]

They got some of that fancy KY his and hers shit.

That's fantastic news. Anyone hear from their sources whether Wallace can pour piss from a boot?

[AtascAstro]

Ed Wade just on MLB network, very non-commital on Berkman, quotes ran something like this...

-He is our 1st baseman
-I've told him and his agent we will not address the option until next year
-I'm assuming he'll be our 1st baseman tomorrow against the Brewers

Yeah, thanks for the memories Twinkie, you'll be missed.

[Astro_Horn]

I think getting Wallace for Gose makes this day's work pretty damn tough to bitch about. He's a closer-to-ready Singleton. Hard to top that.

Exactly.  

As a bonus, this deal also provides a nice infusion of talent at SS as well.  I'm have no problems with a combo of Hernandez/Sanchez/Manzella holding down the fort for a couple of years until one of Villar, Mier, Player X asserts themselves as a long-term solution.

I can't speak for others, but my goal for 2010 was to make a true commitment to rebuilding by the trade deadline.  Now that this deal is complete, the team has put themselves in position to lay a very firm foundation for what lies ahead.

Noe pointed this out above, but the effects of today's trade extend far beyond the specific players involved.  In agreeing to take a large financial hit to move a proven veteran player, the organization has signaled that a new era of Astros baseball has begun.  I'm very thankful for what Roy and Lance have done for this team, but I personally could not be more excited to finally have something to 'root' for other than hoping to tread water and avoid outright embarrassment.

 

[Jose Cruz III]

Exactly.  


I can't speak for others, but my goal for 2010 was to make a true commitment to rebuilding by the trade deadline.  
 

Ed? Is that you?

[hostros7]

Exactly.  


I can't speak for others, but my goal for 2010 was to make a true commitment to rebuilding by the trade deadline.  
 

Ed?  Is that you?  Please forward your contact information to RandyWatson so that he can send you an apology on nice lavender stationary.

[Astro_Horn]

If I am Ed Wade, then this forum is most certainly Shawn Chacon.

[NeilT]

Ed? Is that you?

It can't be Drayton.  Champion wasn't mentioned.

[hostros7]

 jcrasnick: A scout at Phils game said SS Jonathan Villar has chance to be an "exciting player.'' Needs to improve from left side of the plate. #trades [via Twitter]

[cc]

OK, let's nip this in the bud.

1.  He was drafted by the Co-ards ONLY as trade bait.  They never believed he'd play 3b, and he sure as all hell wasn't supplanting Pooholes.
2.  He was sent by the A's as essentially a sidebar deal to the Holliday deal, b/c the A's like Taylor (who is now their #1 prospect) as a better fit.

In my view, the multiple trades mean NOTHING about the kid as a player.

Nothing to nip.  I was commenting only on the frequent movement of a #13 pick only two years ago who has demonstrated some pretty promising offensive skills.  I can see how your first two points make perfect sense, but it made me wonder about Gose based on the snippets of scouting reports copied in this forum.  Seems that if accurate the Astros got a much better return in a Wallace-for-Gose deal straight up.  Who knows, though, maybe Gose ends up being a Kenny Lofton, or better even.

[Lurch]

somethingsomethingsomething Needs to improve from left side of the plate. #trades [via Twitter]

Fucking Ed!

[OregonStrosFan]

Footer's reactions to the trades: LINK

Got this tweet from @comahan13:

"Wow they flipped Gose for Wallace? That's a great move if it's true, and almost single-handedly changes my opinion of all this."

That was exactly my reaction when I heard the Astros traded one of the Phillies prospects they acquired for Roy Oswalt for a 6-foot-2, 205-pound first baseman -- a former No. 1 draft pick whose future is at first base.

My original reaction to the players the Astros acquired in the Oswalt trade wasn't so enthusiastic. I was glad they received J.A. (pronounced "Jay") Happ, a bona fide Major League ready pitcher, but when I looked at outfielder Anthony Gose's credentials, he seemed so much like Michael Bourn and Minor League outfielder Jay Austin and I was wholly disappointed that the Astros did not go for a slugging infielder, something sorely lacking in the upper levels of their farm system.

Then the Astros flipped Gose to Toronto for infielder Brett Wallace, a power-hitting corner infielder. He appears to be a blue-chip offensive player who hasn't established himself at a particular position, and he'll report to Round Rock immediately to begin honing his skills at first base.

[jaklewein]

Wallace was picked only 3 slots after Castro and 2 after Smoak, by the 3rdinals, right?  He's been traded 3 times already, this time for a weak-hitting CF with great wheels.  I wonder what infectious disease he has to get moved around so much.  Hope H-town is the antidote and that he prospers for many years in what is about to be a gaping hole at 1B.

I know I'm way behind on this thread, but had to respond....Carlos Gonzalez was traded three or four times and look at him.  Guy's a stud.

[dirty steve]

Carlos Gonzalez was traded three or four times and look at him.  Guy's a stud.

fantastic parallel.  i have a hard time believing he isn't the starting 1B in 2011.

[roadrunner]

I really think this is the best we could've gotten, and I'm not saying this because I don't have confidence in Wade.  Just given all of the circumstances involved, I think both parties benefit.

What I don't get is the hesitance to deal Myers.

[Lurch]

What I don't get is the hesitance to deal Myers.

Have you learned nothing today?

[roadrunner]

Have you learned nothing today?

Unfortunately I have a job that requires skills other than posting/following the Oswalt trade saga on a message board.

I'm not trying to be a dick, either, just the truth.  What's the deal?  Is Myers our ace next year?  Who cares about next year?

[Jacksonian]

Unfortunately I have a job that requires skills other than posting/following the Oswalt trade saga on a message board.

I'm not trying to be a dick, either, just the truth.  What's the deal?  Is Myers our ace next year?  Who cares about next year?

What makes you think they've been offered anything more than AAAA players for Myers?

[roadrunner]

I would think Myers would have a little more value than AAAA players like at least a shot in the dark AA player so we can at least hold out the 1% chance it's another Bagwell deal.

[cc]

I really think this is the best we could've gotten, and I'm not saying this because I don't have confidence in Wade.  Just given all of the circumstances involved, I think both parties benefit.

What I don't get is the hesitance to deal Myers.

In a down year, Myers has been a gamer and shown himself to be the anti-Oswalt amid Roy's grousing and playing the role of malcontent.  Myers is also only 29 and they want to try to keep him beyond this season.  I'm sure teams were throwing around names of lower-ceiling prospects (i.e. future middle relievers/lefty specialists) that signaled to the Astros that these clubs were hoping to get the 2010 version of Myers in exchange for value equivalent to the 2009 version.

[jaklewein]

What I don't get is the hesitance to deal Myers.

Don't think, just throw...don't think, just throw.  Seriously...quit worrying about what the Astros are or are not doing.  

That's really the greatest part of having Wade, Heck and company (Counting what looks to be a changed Drayton McLane as well - finally buying in).  I don't worry anymore...sounds silly, but ever since they drafted Castro and Lyles I've had a confidence their moves are going to turn out to be great moves.

[Noe]

In a down year, Myers has been a gamer and shown himself to be the anti-Oswalt amid Roy's grousing and playing the role of malcontent.  Myers is also only 29 and they want to try to keep him beyond this season.  I'm sure teams were throwing around names of lower-ceiling prospects (i.e. future middle relievers/lefty specialists) that signaled to the Astros that these clubs were hoping to get the 2010 version of Myers in exchange for value equivalent to the 2009 version.

Brendan Ryan! 

[Arky Vaughan]

If the Astros just swapped Oswalt and $11MM for Happ, Gose and Villar, they have been officially anally raped without lube.  

Correction. Rape is non-consensual. This is self-imposed.

[Arky Vaughan]

In a down year, Myers has been a gamer and shown himself to be the anti-Oswalt amid Roy's grousing and playing the role of malcontent.  Myers is also only 29 and they want to try to keep him beyond this season.  I'm sure teams were throwing around names of lower-ceiling prospects (i.e. future middle relievers/lefty specialists) that signaled to the Astros that these clubs were hoping to get the 2010 version of Myers in exchange for value equivalent to the 2009 version.

How far beyond this season? Beyond 2011 too? Unless they make some incredible deals between now and next April, have some amazing development from youth and career years from veterans, this team isn't likely to be contending in 2011 either. They need to plan longer-term than Myers' likely horizon with the Astros.

[jaklewein]

How far beyond this season? Beyond 2011 too? Unless they make some incredible deals between now and next April, have some amazing development from youth and career years from veterans, this team isn't likely to be contending in 2011 either. They need to plan longer-term than Myers' likely horizon with the Astros.

They have to at least get an offer worth more than a first round pick + a sandwich pick in next year's draft right?

Seems like they can win whether they trade him or not.

[Arky Vaughan]

They have to at least get an offer worth more than a first round pick + a sandwich pick in next year's draft right?

Seems like they can win whether they trade him or not.

Agreed.

My concern is whether that is the thinking, or whether McLane/Gardner believe the team can "be a champion" in 2011. Rebuilding needs to be a comprehensive project, not just shipping out a surly player or two.

[Jacksonian]

Agreed.

My concern is whether that is the thinking, or whether McLane/Gardner believe the team can "be a champion" in 2011. Rebuilding needs to be a comprehensive project, not just shipping out a surly player or two.

It ain't Saturday, yet.

[Lurch]

Unfortunately I have a job that requires skills other than posting/following the Oswalt trade saga on a message board.

I'm not trying to be a dick, either, just the truth.  What's the deal?  Is Myers our ace next year?  Who cares about next year?

We have no idea if they're willing to trade Myers.  A nugget from twitter is worth the paper it's written on.  Saying you dont get it implies the "it" is a truth needing explanation.

[jaklewein]

It ain't Saturday, yet.

Exactly...and guess what?  Kind of funny how waiting to deal Myers kind of makes him the best SP left on the market.  Hmmmmmm, interesting...almost strategic.

[cc]

Brendan Ryan! 

Yeah, with a Shelby Miller ducktaped to him.  Get 'er done!

[Arky Vaughan]

It ain't Saturday, yet.

Good point. And if they can't get good value, the yshouldn't trade him. That being said, given his track record, I'm skeptical of whether the Grocer understands that this isn't just about doing a favor granting a longtime player's trade request. Everybody over 25 needs to be on the table.

[toddthebod]

What I don't understand is why they haven't traded Lyon.  There's a million teams looking for relievers and Lyon has been pretty good this year.  Okay, he's way overpaid, but the Yankees don't care about contracts.  And it seems that they would be willing to trade Joba. 

[JackAstro]

Good point. And if they can't get good value, the shouldn't trade him. That being said, given his track record, I'm skeptical of whether the Grocer understands that this wasn't just about doing a favor granting a longtime player's trade request.

I think that overlooks the money involved. I have a hard time believing that Drayton coughed up $11 million as a favor to Roy. Especially given that he said he'd pony up if there was a significant prospect coming back. I guess I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, as it looks as though he's listening to Tal and Wade about rebuilding.

[cc]

Good point. And if they can't get good value, the shouldn't trade him. That being said, given his track record, I'm skeptical of whether the Grocer understands that this wasn't just about doing a favor granting a longtime player's trade request.

I'm coming around to the thinking that he's coming around.  After all, when Berkman's gone -- be that tomorrow, Saturday or October -- Jeff Keppinger will be the gray beard (at 31 or so) in the infield.  Next oldest?  Tommy Manzella.  So I think it's hard even for him to buy into the notion that they'll be Champions! anytime soon.  Of course, with Pence in the outfield and Carlos Lee returning to 2007 form, and Chris Sampson rediscovering his sinker,...wow, I'm getting excited already!

[Arky Vaughan]

I think that overlooks the money involved. I have a hard time believing that Drayton coughed up $11 million as a favor to Roy. Especially given that he said he'd pony up if there was a significant prospect coming back. I guess I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, as it looks as though he's listening to Tal and Wade about rebuilding.

Which significant prospect?

[JackAstro]

Which significant prospect?

Wallace.

[Ron Brand]

Wade did say in the PC that they had to do what was right for the club and that you couldn't make this kind of trade as a favor to a player.

[roadrunner]

Does anyone think the deal would not have been done without the Wallace trade?  

I think so.  I mean, I hope so.

[cc]

At least the Astros have experience handling players totally lacking in plate discipline. He should fit right in.

Arky, did you miss the memo?  They flipped Gose for Wallace.  And yes, most of us in here think Wallace would qualify as a significant prospect, regardless of what we think Gose is.

[Ron Brand]

Wade said on the GM show this evening that they were discussing the Toronto spinoff last night, so it sounds like that was a very important part and without it there very likely would not have been a deal.

[Arky Vaughan]

Wallace.

Let's hope so. He certainly seems to have the best long-term upside of the three players acquired. It's not clear whether it's $11 million of upside.

[JackAstro]

Does anyone think the deal would not have been done without the Wallace trade?  

I think so.  I mean, I hope so.

Of course not. Doesn't mean a different deal wouldn't have happened, but the Jays specifically wanted Gose. The Astros wouldn't have traded for him in particular without the deal being in place first.

[Arky Vaughan]

Arky, did you miss the memo?  They flipped Gose for Wallace.  And yes, most of us in here think Wallace would qualify as a significant prospect, regardless of what we think Gose is.

I did get the memo, but not before reading that HH's post a few hours ago, foolishly replying to it just now after it became irrelevant, and then deleting my post upon realizing my mistake. Yes, Gose-for-Wallace is clearly the key here. I'm not sure what Happ does for them in the long run.

[roadrunner]

I did get the memo, but not before reading that HH's post a few hours ago and foolishly replying to it just now after it became irrelevant. Yes, Gose-for-Wallace is clearly the key here. I'm not sure what Happ does for them in the long run.

Happ will be the veteran mentor on the pitching staff in 2015 consisting of Lyles, Folty, Velasquez, and Alainz.  Duh.

[JackAstro]

Let's hope so. He certainly seems to have the best long-term upside of the three players acquired. It's not clear whether it's $11 million of upside.

I don't think any minor league player has $11 million in upside, but I do think it's easier to believe that the money is much more about investing in rebuilding than it is about doing favors. I think Drayton should be given credit for the time being, if only because there will be plenty of time to be critical later if this turns out to not be the beginning of a true rebuilding effort. Given the amount of money that he's been sinking into player development, I really think the transformation back to a properly run, baseball-first organization has been underway for a while.

[Navin R Johnson]

Has the $11 Mil # been confirmed?

[jaklewein]

I did get the memo, but not before reading that HH's post a few hours ago, foolishly replying to it just now after it became irrelevant, and then deleting my post upon realizing my mistake. Yes, Gose-for-Wallace is clearly the key here. I'm not sure what Happ does for them in the long run.

Hey, they can always allow Happ to increase his value via on the field performance and then trade him for more prospects.  You never know.

[jbm]

Let's hope so. He certainly seems to have the best long-term upside of the three players acquired. It's not clear whether it's $11 million of upside.

Can't predict the future, but I don't think Happ can be discounted. He can arguably be considered a centerpiece as he did have an exceptional rookie year. Quite a bit better than Oswalt's 09. I realize he's not that young and might be gone by2013, but he was a good pitcher last year.

[cc]

I did get the memo, but not before reading that HH's post a few hours ago, foolishly replying to it just now after it became irrelevant, and then deleting my post upon realizing my mistake. Yes, Gose-for-Wallace is clearly the key here. I'm not sure what Happ does for them in the long run.

"Long run" is the operative term.  The makeup of this club could be even more "developmental" (hopefully not "transitional") in nature in the next 36-48 hours than it is now.  Maybe it's time for all of us to party like it's 1991.

[matadorph]

I'm on my fourth dogfish head so you'll have to forgive me for my french, but these motherfucking twatwaffle dickheads in the baseball punditry class can go choke on a bag of bubonic testicles.

Earlier in the week the Ed Wade is a fucking retard narrative went something like this: "OMG the Astros are soooo dumb! What in the fuck r they doing? Stupidheads! Don't they know Oswalt is not a premiere pitcher anymore? Not only are they asking too much in prospects, they're also too damn cheap to swallow any of the money owed to him. Clueless I tell ya! Ed Wade is a moron!"

Then, once the initial news broke that Oswalt had agreed to waive his NTC and accept the deal to Philly, every single fuckface bashing the front office for overvaluing Oswalt flipped the script and made it all about how horribly the Astros got played. "OMG the Astros r soooooo dumb! Not only did they not get any top prospects from Philly in return for a premier pitcher, they kicked 11 MILLION DOLLARS back to the Phillies! Clueless I tell ya! Ed Wade is a moron!"

It's times like this that I hate the internet, but love SnS.

[Arky Vaughan]

I don't think any minor league player has $11 million in upside, but I do think it's easier to believe that the money is much more about investing in rebuilding than it is about doing favors. I think Drayton should be given credit for the time being, if only because there will be plenty of time to be critical later if this turns out to not be the beginning of a true rebuilding effort. Given the amount of money that he's been sinking into player development, I really think the transformation back to a properly run, baseball-first organization has been underway for a while.

I hope so. It's hard not to be skeptical having watched this trainwreck roll down the track since 2006, while hearing McLane barking in the background, "we're going to be a champion this year." Watching the team disintegrate in the late '80s was not easy, and it took a long time to get back to contention in 1994 and even longer to actually get into the playoffs again in 1997. McLane brought this franchise its greatest success, but it's difficult to believe that he really accepts that the team needs to be rebuilt from the ground up to be competitive again. The longer he denies that reality, the longer the aimless mediocrity will last. Let's hope today signals his acceptance of what's to come rather than being just another attempt at reloading for short-term success.

[austro]

It's not clear whether it's $11 million of upside.

You look at it as an $11MM expense, but I'm looking at it more like a $12MM savings over the course of the next season and a half. If they'd kept Roy, they'd be on the hook for the rest of this year's salary (~$7MM), all of next year's ($16MM), and the buyout option ($2MM). With the trade that changes to $11MM plus whatever they're paying the three new guys (call it $2MM).

[Arky Vaughan]

Hey, they can always allow Happ to increase his value via on the field performance and then trade him for more prospects.  You never know.

What I was thinking. It's not that he doesn't have value, he just might not have it when the Astros will be able to make the most of it.

[Arky Vaughan]

"Long run" is the operative term.  The makeup of this club could be even more "developmental" (hopefully not "transitional") in nature in the next 36-48 hours than it is now.  Maybe it's time for all of us to party like it's 1991.

Yes, let's hope so. I'd rather see a bunch of guys in development than a bunch of guys marking time.

Remember that it took five seasons after 1986 to finally bottom out in 1991, then another three seasons to contend again and then another three to make the postseason. Let's hope that timetable gets compressed. I'm not afraid of 2011 being like 1991. I'm afraid of it being like 1987-1990. The quicker the Astros bottom out, the better.

[Arky Vaughan]

I'm on my fourth dogfish head so you'll have to forgive me for my french, but these motherfucking twatwaffle dickheads in the baseball punditry class can go choke on a bag of bubonic testicles.

Earlier in the week the Ed Wade is a fucking retard narrative went something like this: "OMG the Astros are soooo dumb! What in the fuck r they doing? Stupidheads! Don't they know Oswalt is not a premiere pitcher anymore? Not only are they asking too much in prospects, they're also too damn cheap to swallow any of the money owed to him. Clueless I tell ya! Ed Wade is a moron!"

Then, once the initial news broke that Oswalt had agreed to waive his NTC and accept the deal to Philly, every single fuckface bashing the front office for overvaluing Oswalt flipped the script and made it all about how horribly the Astros got played. "OMG the Astros r soooooo dumb! Not only did they not get any top prospects from Philly in return for a premier pitcher, they kicked 11 MILLION DOLLARS back to the Phillies! Clueless I tell ya! Ed Wade is a moron!"

It's times like this that I hate the internet, but love SnS.

This was to be predicted. The Astros were damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Which is precisely why I don't read those guys except to try to pick up bits of news about where things might be heading.

[Arky Vaughan]

You look at it as an $11MM expense, but I'm looking at it more like a $12MM savings over the course of the next season and a half. If they'd kept Roy, they'd be on the hook for the rest of this year's salary (~$7MM), all of next year's ($16MM), and the buyout option ($2MM). With the trade that changes to $11MM plus whatever they're paying the three new guys (call it $2MM).

But this ignores what effect the $11 million had on the players they were getting or not getting. This assumes that the $11 million had to be part of the deal. Maybe it did, maybe it didn't, but for that kind of money, I would think their bargaining power might've been better.

Look at it from the Phillies' perspective. For whatever they threw in to get the Astros to do the deal with the cash included, they basically got Oswalt for zero salary for the rest of this year and for $12 million next year. That's not too shabby.

[OregonStrosFan]

They have to at least get an offer worth more than a first round pick + a sandwich pick in next year's draft right?

Seems like they can win whether they trade him or not.

Myers is NOT going to be a Type-A free agent at the end of the year... [\bangs-head-against-wall-again]

I'm starting to come around on the possibility of him becoming a Type-B free agent though : Elais progressions: May 16 (Myers = 46.380, Type B cutoff = 59.690, Type A cutoff = 70.875); June 21 (Myers = 49.272, Type B Cutoff = 56.311, Type A cutoff = 69.981); and July 25 (Myers = 56.463, Type B cutoff = 58.673, Type A cutoff = 71.514)

[Arky Vaughan]

Question for the the Bus-Riders: if Wallace was the key to this deal, why were the Jays willing to part with him for the small price of one of the minor-leaguers the Phillies threw into the deal, an outfielder who can't hit and can't see the strike zone? I'm not saying Wallace isn't a decent prospect or that he might not be the first baseman of the future, but it seems strange that Toronto thought he wasn't worth more than the deal scraps from the Houston-Philly piece. Do the Jays know something the Astros don't?

[Lurch]

But this ignores what effect the $11 million had on the players they were getting or not getting. This assumes that the $11 million had to be part of the deal. Maybe it did, maybe it didn't, but for that kind of money, I would think their bargaining power might've been better.

"The Astros seemed set to send about $11 million to the Phillies as part of the deal. Amaro declined to specify the amount.

"That was an important part of this," Amaro said. "We wanted to keep some level of flexibility so we can continue to field a championship-caliber team. Yes, the money did make a difference."

Link

[matadorph]

Question for the the Bus-Riders: if Wallace was the key to this deal, why were the Jays willing to part with him for the small price of one of the minor-leaguers the Phillies threw into the deal, an outfielder who can't hit and can't see the strike zone? I'm not saying Wallace isn't a decent prospect or that he might not be the first baseman of the future, but it seems strange that Toronto thought he wasn't worth more than the deal scraps from the Houston-Philly piece. Do the Jays know something the Astros don't?

Perhaps they think they have enough in Overbay and Lind to absorb the loss of their 1b of the future? They clearly like Gose. A lot.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Question for the the Bus-Riders: if Wallace was the key to this deal, why were the Jays willing to part with him for the small price of one of the minor-leaguers the Phillies threw into the deal, an outfielder who can't hit and can't see the strike zone? I'm not saying Wallace isn't a decent prospect or that he might not be the first baseman of the future, but it seems strange that Toronto thought he wasn't worth more than the deal scraps from the Houston-Philly piece. Do the Jays know something the Astros don't?

Not meaning to be a smartass, but looking at the Jays' roster, I feel significantly better about the Astros roster.  Make of that what you wish, but I concluded that they either see their future much further out OR they are clueless.

[Noe]

Question for the the Bus-Riders: if Wallace was the key to this deal, why were the Jays willing to part with him for the small price of one of the minor-leaguers the Phillies threw into the deal, an outfielder who can't hit and can't see the strike zone? I'm not saying Wallace isn't a decent prospect or that he might not be the first baseman of the future, but it seems strange that Toronto thought he wasn't worth more than the deal scraps from the Houston-Philly piece. Do the Jays know something the Astros don't?

Toronto traded from what *they* think is a strength to fill a weakness.  That is what they're saying and all along, no one that has had Wallace in their system has said he's a bust waiting to happen.  He's just a great bargaining chip to get what you want.

The Jays might have shipped out a solid first base prospect, but they have a glut of corner outfield/DH-type hitters in Adam Lind, Fred Lewis, Travis Snider, Jose Bautista, and even current center fielder, Vernon Wells.

Wells and his mammoth contract will be around for several more years and both Lewis and Bautista could be kept around at low cost for a few years as well. That would seem to leave Lind and Snider looking for a spot to play and first base might just end up being a home for one of them.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/426953-blue-jays-send-brett-wallace-to-houston-in-surprise-trade-deadline-move

The Cardinals traded Wallace because he was never going to see the light of day in the majors behind Pujols.  Seems the Jays were looking for a speedy CF, they found one in prospect Gose, and while we can take *numbers* from a A ball player and make assumptions, it's kind of foolish to do that.  What they're saying is that the kid is a raw 19 year old talent that could turn out to be really good.  In a A ball prospect trade, you have to trust scouts more than stats and the age of 19 is also a factor to trust what you see more than what you read (in a stat).  Houston with Michael Bourn already in the bigs and Jay Austin in the minors did not need Gose.  That was the head scratching that went on, not that Gose was a horrible prospect.  Obviously Houston did their homework (and Ed Wade knows the Phillie minor league system) and he plucked the right guy to flip over to the Jays for a really solid, almost ready for the majors top of the line prospect.

[Noe]

Perhaps they think they have enough in Overbay and Lind to absorb the loss of their 1b of the future? They clearly like Gose. A lot.

*DING, DING, DING*

[cc]

Toronto traded from what *they* think is a strength to fill a weakness.

Yeah, someone in here mentioned that the Jays really coveted Gose and had wanted him included in the Halladay deal.  Wallace, meanwhile, is just another guy projected to hit .301 with 40 doubles, score and drive in over 100 runs, and have a .360 OBP.  Maybe the Jays have guys like that.  Only the Astros don't have anyone else in their system projected to do anything like this who is also close to being MLB-ready.

So it's easy to see this as a win-win.  Of course, the punditry assumes that someone has to get fleeced in every deal.

[Noe]

Yeah, someone in here mentioned that the Jays really coveted Gose and had wanted him included in the Halladay deal.  Wallace, meanwhile, is just another guy projected to hit .301 with 40 doubles, score and drive in over 100 runs, and have a .360 OBP.  Maybe the Jays have guys like that.  Only the Astros don't have anyone else in their system projected to do anything like this who is also close to being MLB-ready.

So it's easy to see this as a win-win.  Of course, the punditry assumes that someone has to get fleeced in every deal.

It sells on the concourse, so it's not all the fault of the punditry.  They know their audience.

[jaklewein]

*DING, DING, DING*

I'm guessing that TOR may see Travis Snider as a player that might fall into that group as well.

[cc]

It sells on the concourse, so it's not all the fault of the punditry.  They know their audience.

True.  I forgot to add: 30 HR.  Now all this has happened in Las Vegas.  Let's hope *this* doesn't stay in Las Vegas.

[JimR]

Exactly.  

As a bonus, this deal also provides a nice infusion of talent at SS as well.  I'm have no problems with a combo of Hernandez/Sanchez/Manzella holding down the fort for a couple of years until one of Villar, Mier, Player X asserts themselves as a long-term solution.

I can't speak for others, but my goal for 2010 was to make a true commitment to rebuilding by the trade deadline.  

your goal? who the hell are you?

[Noe]

I'm guessing that TOR may see Travis Snider as a player that might fall into that group as well.

Some Toronto pundits think Snider and Wallace were clones of each other.  Wallace was a luxury in some ways and perhaps his lack of defensive skills made him much more expendable.  Bird in the hand sort of thing.

[Jacksonian]

Question for the the Bus-Riders: if Wallace was the key to this deal, why were the Jays willing to part with him for the small price of one of the minor-leaguers the Phillies threw into the deal, an outfielder who can't hit and can't see the strike zone? I'm not saying Wallace isn't a decent prospect or that he might not be the first baseman of the future, but it seems strange that Toronto thought he wasn't worth more than the deal scraps from the Houston-Philly piece. Do the Jays know something the Astros don't?

He's very athletic, very fast, very good defensively, and has a very strong arm.  He's raw with the bat.  The Jays think that will come, and that he will be a GG centerfielder with high level leadoff skills.  Think Bourn hitting .300 with .390 obp every year.

[hostros7]

Yeah, someone in here mentioned that the Jays really coveted Gose and had wanted him included in the Halladay deal.  Wallace, meanwhile, is just another guy projected to hit .301 with 40 doubles, score and drive in over 100 runs, and have a .360 OBP.  Maybe the Jays have guys like that.  Only the Astros don't have anyone else in their system projected to do anything like this who is also close to being MLB-ready.

So it's easy to see this as a win-win.  Of course, the punditry assumes that someone has to get fleeced in every deal.

Exactly.  The stros have been drafting "toolsy" guys with high ceilings and low floors by virtue of their age.  Gose is another one of those guys.  From what I've read, the Jays have a dearth of those "toolsy" guys.  They traded from a position of perceived strength to fill a perceived weakness, as did the Astros.  Not sure what is hard to get about this (not directed at you CC).  The Jays scouts targeted Gose a long time ago from the feedback on the Halladay post-mortem.  The Astros obviously trust their scouts as well.  Maybe we laymen should give it a try.  I, personally, wouldn't have thought the stros needed to throw in 11 millski for this particular deal but that is what the market dictated.  Maybe the team just really wanted to move on from Roy.  It's done.  Let's wait and see how it plays out.

[JimR]

i am hoping Happ goes 7 tomorrow night. that will shut some of this stuff up.

[Arky Vaughan]

i am hoping Happ goes 7 tomorrow night. that will shut some of this stuff up.

Happ, if healthy, could have nice seasons this year and for years to come. The main question I have is not about Happ or any of the other players, or even about the ability of Wade and the scouts to evaluate them. It's about whether McLane is committed to long-term rebuilding or whether he thinks he can tinker a bit and get back to contention immediately. It's not heresy to question the intentions of an owner who's been known to take his marketing department's advice over that of his trained and experienced baseball men. Whatever Wade does, he has the owner to answer to. Wade can't be held responsible for that.

[Noe]

Interesting comment from Buster Onley tonight.  Basically, he said the following "There were a lot of teams who, when they heard of the Phillie deal in principle, said "Hey, had we known Oswalt was basically only going to cost 8 million dollars, we would have taken a more serious approach to try and get him".  Okay, several things bothered me about this reporting by Olney:

1. Why are major league organizations getting information about things like this from rumor mills and ESPN reports instead of, you know, actually talking to Houston?
2. Isn't Onley basically saying that all that rumor mongering about Drayton McLane being an owner who will hold out for the other team taking all of Oswalt's contract was false speculation, and of course Onley was part of that whole thing?

In the end, Onley said "No matter what any of those teams say, the Astros worked hard to get a *other* teams to get involved in a trade for Oswalt.  They were the ones who made concessions."

[JimR]

Interesting comment from Buster Onley tonight.  Basically, he said the following "There were a lot of teams who, when they heard of the Phillie deal in principle, said "Hey, had we known Oswalt was basically only going to cost 8 million dollars, we would have taken a more serious approach to try and get him".  Okay, several things bothered me about this reporting by Olney:

1. Why are major league organizations getting information about things like this from rumor mills and ESPN reports?
2. Isn't Onley basically saying that all that rumor mongering about Drayton McLane being an owner who will hold out for the other team taking all of Oswalt's contract was false speculation, and of course Onley was part of that whole thing?

In the end, Onley said "No matter what any of those teams say, the Astros worked hard to get a *other* teams to get involved in a trade for Oswalt.  They were the ones who made concessions."

teams will say anything after the fact.

[Noe]

teams will say anything after the fact.

Yeah, basically when the report was "... and the Astros kicked in 11 million dollars...", all of a sudden some heads turned right at the direction of those MLB Execs who convinced their people there was no need to deal with the Astros because of McLane.  Those guys had the nerve to tell Onley "Hey, we didn't know!"  Buncha idiots trying to convince themselves they didn't make a mistake to not return Houston's calls.  When the report came out today from Onley that two teams (the Cardinals and Padres) tried to get *serious* about a deal with Houston but it was too late, I just laughed.

Oh, *NOW* you're serious, eh?  The Phillies worked with the Astros, got the concession they needed because Houston is ready to turn the page and this trade reflects that (and I believe another trade will be made by Saturday and yes, I believe Berkman will be gone too).  If teams that are run by professionals can't do the most simplest thing when it comes to talking business, then they have no one to blame but themselves.

[Arky Vaughan]

Yeah, basically when the report was "... and the Astros kicked in 11 million dollars...", all of a sudden some heads turned right at the direction of those MLB Execs who convinced their people there was no need to deal with the Astros because of McLane.  Those guys had the nerve to tell Onley "Hey, we didn't know!"  Buncha idiots trying to convince themselves they didn't make a mistake to not return Houston's calls.  When the report came out today from Onley that two teams (the Cardinals and Padres) tried to get *serious* about a deal with Houston but it was too late, I just laughed.

Oh, *NOW* you're serious, eh?  The Phillies worked with the Astros, got the concession they needed because Houston is ready to turn the page and this trade reflects that (and I believe another trade will be made by Saturday and yes, I believe Berkman will be gone too).  If teams that are run by professionals can't do the most simplest thing when it comes to talking business, then they have no one to blame but themselves.

Saturday may not be the end to this in any case. Some of these guys may clear waivers.

I wonder what McLane would pony up to move Carlos Lee. That's the piece that really needs to move to free up everything else and let the rebuilding really get rolling.

[Noe]

Saturday may not be the end to this in any case. Some of these guys may clear waivers.

I wonder what McLane would pony up to move Carlos Lee. That's the piece that really needs to move to free up everything else and let the rebuilding really get rolling.

It would be fun to put Lee on waivers and if someone claims him, the Astros say "He's all yours... no backsies!"

[Arky Vaughan]

It would be fun to put Lee on waivers and if someone claims him, the Astros say "He's all yours... no backsies!"

Lee might clear waivers faster than he clears his plate.

[DVauthrin]

Obviously there isn't much market(if any) for Lee, but you might be able to get the Angels, Giants, or Red Sox to consider a deal.    You would need to take on Kazmir's contract with Anaheim, Rowand with the Giants, and Drew or Lackey with the Red Sox.   

[Arky Vaughan]

The market for Oswalt was diminished by the Astros' insistence they receive at least one Major League player in the deal, and Wade said the action began to heat up after Cliff Lee was traded to the Texas Rangers from the Seattle Mariners a few weeks ago.

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100729&content_id=12760192&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou

Why? Why would they insist on this and thereby diminish the market? So they have a major-leaguer from the deal that they can show off as a trophy now? So Pam can sell marginally more tickets in the short run?

[Alkie]

Wait a second...Happ is starting tonight?  Let me fire up the jet.  Get me 16, no 17 tickets in the Diamond Club. 

And a sooooveenurteeshart.

[HudsonHawk]

your goal? who the hell are you?

My goal for 2010 was to finish the master bathroom remodel.  That was done in April, so everything from here on out is pure gravy.

[MusicMan]

I wonder what McLane would pony up to move Carlos Lee. That's the piece that really needs to move to free up everything else and let the rebuilding really get rolling.

I don't think you could trade Lee without paying every last cent of his contract.  And even then, it would be hard.

[Limey]

Sorry folk.  Been drunk for a few hours.  What did I miss?

[MusicMan]

Sorry folk.  Been drunk for a few hours.  What did I miss?

We put saran wrap on your toilet while you were passed out.

[AtascAstro]

Sorry folk.  Been drunk for a few hours.  What did I miss?

The centerpiece of the deal, Wallace can't walk.  The SS prospect can't hit and the Astros thought about spending $11 million dollars in Latin player development but decidedto give it to Philly instead.

[Lurch]

The centerpiece of the deal, Wallace can't walk.  The SS prospect can't hit and the Astros thought about spending $11 million dollars in Latin player development but decidedto give it to Philly instead.

Bravo

[Astroholic]

The centerpiece of the deal, Wallace can't walk.  The SS prospect can't hit and the Astros thought about spending $11 million dollars in Latin player development but decidedto give it to Philly instead.

And Roy finally found that tube of Vagisil (TM) hed been looking for.

[Señor Stan]

The centerpiece of the deal, Wallace can't walk.  The SS prospect can't hit and the Astros thought about spending $11 million dollars in Latin player development but decidedto give it to Philly instead.

I thought the $11 million was for presents under Drayton's Christmas tree. [/heterodoxy]

[matadorph]

teams will say anything after the fact.

and many reporters will say just about anything in spite of a fact...

[cc]

That's fantastic news. Anyone hear from their sources whether Wallace can pour piss from a boot?

You and HH both will be relieved to know I ran across this excerpt from an audio stream by a Willie something or other, detailing his overall scouting report:

PPFBR: 0.96 (This is his Pour Piss From Boot Ratio) - "So only 4 times out of every hundred will there be spillage, leakage or inadequate volume recovery in this young man's pours.  As long as he stays above the 0.90 threshold, he should be able to locate and step on first base equally well with either foot.  His greatest tool, however, is his height.  At 6'2", he should carry sufficient VZR (vertical zone ratio) to be able to block, knock down and even catch a fair percentage of the attempted throws toward home sailing in from right field.

"Conclusion: While offensively he sprays to all fields with plus plus power, his flaccid output on the field means that, as a leftfielder he projects top-end ability of a Ryan Braun-ish skillset (i.e. will 7 times out of 10 locate the wall behind him and hit one of the cutoff men if they're spread out evenly), but will most likely settle into something approaching a visually impaired Rafael Soriano.  Even though his makeup is not a complete defensive void, he is destined to be a first baseman in the mold of Gil Hodges, in that he will wear his mitt on the same hand.

"Note: Although the PPFBR test doesn't actually involve bases, gloves, balls or bats, clinical research has proven that in blind studies involving a random set of Doc Maartens, pouring piss from a boot at a 90% success ratio translates to effective catching of throws 12-18X per game (9 innings maximum), safely throwing around the horn, and more often than not remembering to bring a ball with one's mitt on the field each time for infield practice."

[AtascAstro]

MLBTR adds some more details of what the Astros were after/offered by other clubs

The Astros wanted Chad Billingsley in exchange for Roy Oswalt, according to Dylan Hernandez of the LA Times (Twitter link). The Dodgers countered with a four-prospect offer, but the Astros preferred the Phils' offer.

Link

[cc]

MLBTR adds some more details of what the Astros were after/offered by other clubs

Link

Clearly, if the Astros were going to get either an MLB or MLB-ready starter, it would have to be someone like Happ, i.e. a guy who would be in most rotations but has been trying to come back from injury or can't seem to crack the top five for some reason.  I mean, why would a contending team want to trade one of their starters simply to get another one?  Makes me think this is more noise, or that Wade and co. were not anticipating those negotiations would go very far because they didn't like their prospects as much Philly's.  I thought they also wanted James Loney/Matt Kemp.  Again, what would be the point of the Dodgers surrendering talent they're counting on?

I'm not sure whom to believe anymore.  Other than Footer, of course.

[JimR]

MLBTR adds some more details of what the Astros were after/offered by other clubs

Link

the Phillies did not want to give up the CFer we sent to get Wallace but they had to in order to get the deal done.

[cc]

the Phillies did not want to give up the CFer we sent to get Wallace but they had to in order to get the deal done.

Of course, if we'd only informed the Padres of our true intentions earlier we could have had Latos and two or three of their top prospects.  And I'm sure St. Louis would have kicked in Rasmus.  Just ask ESPN.