Author Topic: More controversy  (Read 11209 times)

HudsonHawk

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #380 on: November 22, 2019, 11:44:37 pm »
and after, which is the issue.

What evidence do you have of that?
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Navin R Johnson

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #381 on: November 22, 2019, 11:51:13 pm »
Doesn’t matter what I have.  Just saying MLB has enough.   The hammer is coming down,   To use an analogy, the cops told everyone no more speeding through the neighborhood.   10+ people decided F that and kept  speeding through the neighborhood, the Astros had the BRIGHT RED CORVETTE going 80, and got pulled over.  Now lets hope the penalty isn’t to harsh.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #382 on: November 22, 2019, 11:58:22 pm »
Doesn’t matter what I have.  Just saying MLB has enough.   The hammer is coming down, 

Again, what evidence do you have of that?

Quote
To use an analogy, the cops told everyone no more speeding through the neighborhood.   10+ people decided F that and kept  speeding through the neighborhood, the Astros had the BRIGHT RED CORVETTE going 80, and got pulled over.  Now lets hope the penalty isn’t to harsh.

That is not an accurate analogy. You’re saying the cops said no more speeding through the neighborhood, and now because someone claims the Astros were doing 80 two years ago, they should retroactively receive  harsher penalties than those who got pulled over two weeks after the Astros alleged speeding and before the cops mades said announcement.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Navin R Johnson

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #383 on: November 22, 2019, 11:58:54 pm »
Hope I am 1000% wrong on this, but what I heard tonight doesn’t give me much hope, in regards to penalties.  Best case is that the only action is that turd Taubman is banned for life, I fear that won’t be enough. 
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HudsonHawk

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #384 on: November 23, 2019, 12:00:31 am »
Hope I am 1000% wrong on this, but what I heard tonight doesn’t give me much hope, in regards to penalties.  Best case is that the only action is that turd Taubman is banned for life, I fear that won’t be enough.

What did you hear?  And unless Taubman was the ring leader of the sign stealing, why would he even enter the discussion?
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

The Spleen

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #385 on: November 23, 2019, 12:03:55 am »
Except this all happened *before* the Red Sox Apple Watch stuff.

This is a pretty interesting and balanced article by the Ringer. They did a deep dive on game video from 2017. They say the drum signals first appeared on May 28 and continued intermittently until mid September (the time of the White Sox series described in the Athletic article). Those games were played 5-6 days after the formal announcement and warning by MLB about the Red Sox spying case.

My guess is that whatever happened started with the players (as the Athletic article suggested) and was improvised with found items... existing cameras, the replay monitor and the trash can. This doesn't seem like something mandated by the front office, especially as primitive as it was. And why would they start this on a random date mid-season? I'm really starting to doubt all the rumors about James Bond style-high tech espionage. That doesn't mean this wasn't serious. If they were using a camera to spy in real time, multiple players knew.  It's hard to imagine Hinch and the coaches wouldn't have figured it out, even if they weren't participants. Did the front office ignore this, or did they try to police it themselves? Even if they somehow didn't know, it happened on their watch.

But there's one group that definitely knew... MLB. The warning about drum signals to the monitors in 2019 is pretty obvious. If MLB had reports or rumors about this, all they had to do was spend a couple of hours watching game film (like Jomboy and friends) to understand what was going on. So why didn't they act, even after they publicly reprimanded the Red Sox and Yankees?
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HudsonHawk

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #386 on: November 23, 2019, 12:07:58 am »
This is a pretty interesting and balanced article by the Ringer. They did a deep dive on game video from 2017. They say the drum signals first appeared on May 28 and continued intermittently until mid September (the time of the White Sox series described in the Athletic article). Those games were played 5-6 days after the formal announcement and warning by MLB about the Red Sox spying case.

My guess is that whatever happened started with the players (as the Athletic article suggested) and was improvised with found items... existing cameras, the replay monitor and the trash can. This doesn't seem like something mandated by the front office, especially as primitive as it was. And why would they start this on a random date mid-season? I'm really starting to doubt all the rumors about James Bond style-high tech espionage. That doesn't mean this wasn't serious. If they were using a camera to spy in real time, multiple players knew.  It's hard to imagine Hinch and the coaches wouldn't have figured it out, even if they weren't participants. Did the front office ignore this, or did they try to police it themselves? Even if they somehow didn't know, it happened on their watch.

But there's one group that definitely knew... MLB. The warning about drum signals to the monitors in 2019 is pretty obvious. If MLB had reports or rumors about this, all they had to do was spend a couple of hours watching game film (like Jomboy and friends) to understand what was going on. So why didn't they act, even after they publicly reprimanded the Red Sox and Yankees?

MLB knew about it. They didn’t act because they didn’t want to open that can of worms. It was opened for them.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

The Spleen

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #387 on: November 23, 2019, 12:13:43 am »
MLB knew about it. They didn’t act because they didn’t want to open that can of worms. It was opened for them.

My guess is MLB was tipped off by another team shortly before the end of the regular season (it's amazing this scheme lasted three and a half months, as crude and obvious as it was). They probably looked at the video and confirmed that something was off but didn't have what the Athletic did... sources to confirm the specifics. With the postseason coming up they had to do something, so they warned the Astros off the record. Luhnow or whoever can't claim that this had already been settled because there is no documentation.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #388 on: November 23, 2019, 12:31:54 am »
My guess is MLB was tipped off by another team shortly before the end of the regular season (it's amazing this scheme lasted three and a half months, as crude and obvious as it was). They probably looked at the video and confirmed that something was off but didn't have what the Athletic did... sources to confirm the specifics. With the postseason coming up they had to do something, so they warned the Astros off the record. Luhnow or whoever can't claim that this had already been settled because there is no documentation.

It’s not just the Astros. Manfred is lying to your face when he says he doesn’t think it extends beyond them. This has been going on for a century and MLB has known about it and for the most part tolerated it. This story is about a reporter wanting to embarrass the Astros. MLB simply went “ah shit...now we have to acknowledge.” 
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Navin R Johnson

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #389 on: November 23, 2019, 12:46:35 am »
I agree that this is going on elsewhere, but until there is a Fiers, willing to put his name in public against another team, the Astos are toast.

Fock Fiers.   Has he turned in his WS ring and check from 2017 yet?
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Tom Servo

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #390 on: November 23, 2019, 06:30:07 am »


Ryan Brasier has interesting take on Astros' scandal

Quote
"I’ve had I don’t know how many people ask me about this whole deal with the Astros," Brasier said. "Honestly, it’s partly the teams' fault that are playing them regardless of that’s what is going on. Because you go into a spot where you have to win the last thing you need to do is give one sign. If your pitchers can’t figure out a way to not let them pick your signs then that’s kind of on you. Now, whether or not they were using whatever besides the players doing it themselves on the bases … I feel like you have to go into games like that ready for anything."

JimR

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #391 on: November 23, 2019, 07:24:20 am »
Unless MLB said no signaling in any way from the dugout (which ends totally legal actions), the issue is electronics during games to steal the signs. There MUST be evidence of this to punish. How the signals were transmitted is a red herring. I hope the Astros have a good lawyer on this. This mess is beyond the ability of baseball people and analytics nerds. It is a lynch mob.
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JimR

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #392 on: November 23, 2019, 07:31:24 am »
I agree that this is going on elsewhere, but until there is a Fiers, willing to put his name in public against another team, the Astos are toast.

Fock Fiers.   Has he turned in his WS ring and check from 2017 yet?

Been asking myself that question for awhile. Wonder what the other As think of him.
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Aussie Astro

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #393 on: November 23, 2019, 08:13:11 am »
I agree that this is going on elsewhere, but until there is a Fiers, willing to put his name in public against another team, the Astos are toast.

Fock Fiers.   Has he turned in his WS ring and check from 2017 yet?

Excellent point.
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Astros Fan in Big D

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #394 on: November 23, 2019, 09:16:03 am »
Been asking myself that question for awhile. Wonder what the other As think of him.

They should know they can't trust him.

austro

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #395 on: November 23, 2019, 09:39:34 am »
They should know they can't trust him.

They should have known that after they saw the spiral beard.
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SoonerJim

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #396 on: November 23, 2019, 09:47:30 am »
Excluding the players, of what benefit is it to the other teams apart from the emotional satisfaction of seeing Houston's comeuppance to have this "scandal" progressing? There are winter meetings and a new CBA to invoke after 2021. Anyone think a couple of draft picks is going to change the trajectory of any team? Houston had a draft earlier this decade with no signings nor advancements thru the system. It's not as though we've experienced setbacks before. I can see a suspension hurting this franchise. Oakland, Texas, SF, and NYY marinated in anabolic steroids had hid behind legal drug protections to keep their crowd favorites and team records successful.

Astros Fan in Big D

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #397 on: November 23, 2019, 10:17:24 am »
They should have known that after they saw the spiral beard.

A fucking cat tail beard.

What a moron.

Navin R Johnson

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #398 on: November 23, 2019, 10:31:29 am »
a new CBA to invoke after 2021.


Which is why it’s really unlikely any player faces serious consequences.  It’s gonna be front office, he org and maybe some coaches including Beltran and Cora.
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juliogotay

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #399 on: November 23, 2019, 11:30:05 am »
Which is why it’s really unlikely any player faces serious consequences.  It’s gonna be front office, he org and maybe some coaches including Beltran and Cora.

I doubt they will touch Beltran or Cora. If so, slap on the wrist.