Author Topic: More controversy  (Read 11198 times)


JJxvi

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2019, 12:49:54 pm »
So reading between the lines...the accused player/coach is going to end up being Cora and Beltran and is also the reason the 2018 ALCS was so bizarre and nutso with the paranoia?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 12:54:50 pm by JJxvi »

Astros Fan in Big D

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2019, 12:56:48 pm »
Fiers blabbing is shitty.

SoonerJim

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2019, 01:14:48 pm »
Are hand gestures obsolete? Should we go wireless?

JJxvi

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2019, 01:25:31 pm »
We were clearly better at stealing signs from cameras in opposing parks in 2017-18

BudGirl

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2019, 01:32:02 pm »
The whole thing is stupid.  If you can't beat the Astros it must be because they are cheating.

Fiers is an ass.  He does realize that if the Astros were illegally stealing signs, he benefited from it by getting wins? 

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2019, 01:41:09 pm »
The first sentence at the end of the first paragraph:  That illegal sign stealing, particularly through advanced technology, is everywhere.

But don't let that fact stop the baseball press from saving the world from the bad boys from Houston.





JimR

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2019, 01:44:13 pm »
A Dehlich byline means a hatchet job. What a crock.
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The Spleen

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2019, 01:49:23 pm »
The first sentence at the end of the first paragraph:  That illegal sign stealing, particularly through advanced technology, is everywhere.

'Bounty' schemes were all over the NFL. But the team chosen as the scapegoat was the one that played in a media desert, had no real national fanbase and whose sudden run of success was stealing oxygen from bigger market teams...
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Astros Fan in Big D

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2019, 01:49:40 pm »
The first sentence at the end of the first paragraph:  That illegal sign stealing, particularly through advanced technology, is everywhere.

But don't let that fact stop the baseball press from saving the world from the bad boys from Houston.

Bingo.


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Re: More controversy
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2019, 03:17:55 pm »
Jomboy found video of the September 2017 game Farquhar mentioned and made a breakdown.

The White Sox broadcast of the game picks up the banging too.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2019, 03:32:30 pm »
Jomboy found video of the September 2017 game Farquhar mentioned and made a breakdown.

The White Sox broadcast of the game picks up the banging too.

Not very subtle.

AstroAndy

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2019, 03:36:34 pm »
A Dehlich byline means a hatchet job. What a crock.

I'm assuming that Ken Rosenthal's presence in the byline is the only reason the headline includes the additional "part of a much broader issue for MLB" language.  If it was a pure Drellich piece, it almost certainly would not have looked beyond a single team.  As it is, much of the writing mirrors many of Drellich's other Astros-critical articles, and the focus on it being a "broader issue" for MLB is very light, with only the 2017 Red Sox/Apple Watch issue getting any specificity.  This has literally been a major concern for MLB for years, and it doesn't take investigative journalism to actually collect that information--just basic Googling.  The Brewers accused the Dodgers of using video to steal signs in last year's playoffs.  The Red Sox accused the Yankees of stealing signs using their YES cameras in 2018.  The Yankees were fined for inappropriate use of the dugout phone in 2017.  A year ago, Sports Illustrated ran an article entitled "Many MLB teams Installing Multiple Surveillance Cameras to Steal Opponents' Signs."  Teams, plural.  Even Bleacher Report--not exactly a paragon of investigatory excellence--turned up "several league sources" who pointed the finger at eight non-Astros clubs that use video to steal signs.  Where are the hit jobs on those teams?  I'd be very interested to read an article that's actually about the "broader issue," and not just a one-team hit job.  This is what happens when you unnecessarily piss off the press pool.

Fiers blabbing is shitty.
   

Frankly, I'm so tired of the anonymous accusations that usually fill these kinds of articles (and there are still a fair number of anonymous quotes in this article) that it's refreshing to me that Fiers was willing to put his name on the soundbites.  And I agree with him that if there's cheating going on--regardless of whether it's my team doing it or not--it's unfair and should be stamped out. 

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2019, 03:44:12 pm »
Rosenthal reports a statement from the Astros: “Regarding the story posted by The Athletic earlier today, the Houston Astros organization has begun an investigation in cooperation with Major League Baseball. It would not be appropriate to comment further on this matter at this time.”

They've come a long way from responding with a unfounded character assassination.
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Waldo

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2019, 03:51:31 pm »
Not very subtle.

That's the weird thing - it's so obvious that surely they couldn't get away with it very often.  I didn't hear it again in the 8th after Gattis's AB.  Spot checked a few other points in the game and didn't hear it.

SoonerJim

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2019, 04:05:41 pm »
A high speed electronic relay from an outfield camera has as its last communication modality, a bat banging on a trashcan.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2019, 04:08:23 pm »
As for Fiers,  the obvious follow up question wasn't asked:

"Have you been on any other teams that have stolen signs illegally and if so which team(s) and how was it done?"

JimR

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2019, 04:15:33 pm »
Fuck Jomboy and his on-camera outrage. Cheating must be why the Astros ousted NYY three of the last five years.

There are high speed cameras all around every ballpark. The recent book on Bauer and player development made that clear. I will wait on the investigation of every team. This is two articles each for Rosenthal and Drehlich to target the Astros.  That is the price of winning big, I guess.
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TeeJoe

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2019, 04:26:01 pm »
There are high speed cameras all around every ballpark. The recent book on Bauer and player development made that clear. I will wait on the investigation of every team.
Exactly! The below article states that this shouldn't be an Astros only investigation...

Quote
But this is likely not just an Astros story. Major League Baseball has a pretty big cheating scandal on its hands. Now let’s see if Major League Baseball treats it as such rather than limit its inquiry to just the Houston Astros.
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/astros-stole-signs-electronically-2017-191628433.html

JJxvi

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2019, 04:31:18 pm »
Fuck Jomboy and his on-camera outrage. Cheating must be why the Astros ousted NYY three of the last five years.

There are high speed cameras all around every ballpark. The recent book on Bauer and player development made that clear. I will wait on the investigation of every team. This is two articles each for Rosenthal and Drehlich to target the Astros.  That is the price of winning big, I guess.

Jomboy's asshurt is my favorite thing to come out of this story...

JJxvi

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2019, 04:37:33 pm »
BTW, MLB already knew about all of this and has had teams coming to them for years accusing other teams of this.

This article is a whole year too late to the party, MLB already instituted rules prior to the 2019 season specifically to prevent this exact method of sign stealing.

For 2019, they banned all non broadcast cameras in the outfield from foul pole to foul pole.  They instituted a mandatory 8 second delay on all clubhouse and dugout video feeds.  Teams are allowed one live clubhouse video feed with one employee specifically for use in replay review and an MLB employee observes while it is in use (so two people watch it, effectively) to make sure no other club player or employee can use it.  MLB also banned all monitors and video in the tunnel between clubhouses and dugouts (specifically to fight this).  They also created an audit system where both scheduled and unscheduled inspections where all ballpark cameras and video monitors are audited and must be accounted for to MLB for a specific approved purpose.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 04:43:16 pm by JJxvi »

JimR

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2019, 04:48:17 pm »
BTW, MLB already knew about all of this and has had teams coming to them for years accusing other teams of this.

This article is a whole year too late to the party, MLB already instituted rules prior to the 2019 season specifically to prevent this exact method of sign stealing.

For 2019, they banned all non broadcast cameras in the outfield from foul pole to foul pole.  They instituted a mandatory 8 second delay on all clubhouse and dugout video feeds.  Teams are allowed one live clubhouse video feed with one employee specifically for use in replay review and an MLB employee observes while it is in use (so two people watch it, effectively) to make sure no other club player or employee can use it.  MLB also banned all monitors and video in the tunnel between clubhouses and dugouts (specifically to fight this).  They also created an audit system where both scheduled and unscheduled inspections where all ballpark cameras and video monitors are audited and must be accounted for to MLB for a specific approved purpose.

Excellent (!), but these facts will not slow down the media frenzy.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2019, 05:00:02 pm »
Excellent (!), but these facts will not slow down the media frenzy.

Yes.  We'll have to see if MLB says "yep, we knew about it,  hence the rule changes" or if they decide to feign ignorance.

SoonerJim

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2019, 05:05:31 pm »
It’s a way to beat on the Astros. This accusation would never be leveled at the favored few, all of whom we’ve beaten since 2017

JimR

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2019, 05:11:31 pm »
It’s a way to beat on the Astros. This accusation would never be leveled at the favored few, all of whom we’ve beaten since 2017

So true.
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DVauthrin

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2019, 05:39:32 pm »
You have a scorned ex-Astro that lost his rotation spot in the second half of the 2017 season and was left off the playoff roster during the entire World Series run, and a former beat writer that claims the team tried to get him fired when he worked for the Houston Chronicle playing major roles in this story.  Plus, they single out the Astros in the title despite the fact that it’s a widespread issue across Major League Baseball. No bias here.

Modern journalism disgusts me in so many ways.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 05:44:21 pm by DVauthrin »
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JimR

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2019, 05:44:32 pm »
You have a scorned ex-Astro that lost his rotation spot in the second half of 2017 and was left off the playoff roster during the entire World Series run and a former beat writer that claims the team tried to get him fired when he worked for the Houston Chronicle playing major roles in this story.  No bias here or anything like that.

That is Drehlich’s bitch? I wondered why he had the long knives out. Why did the Red Sox fire him? Rosenthal just looks two-faced. He drooled all over Astros on TV, but not has written two scathing columns.
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Astros Fan in Big D

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2019, 05:53:26 pm »
That is Drehlich’s bitch? I wondered why he had the long knives out. Why did the Red Sox fire him? Rosenthal just looks two-faced. He drooled all over Astros on TV, but not has written two scathing columns.

Rosenthal had an offseason overview piece last week that he ended with a paragraph about his hopes MLB would keep probing the Taubman/SI story.

https://theathletic.com/1350649/2019/11/05/rosenthal-storylines-to-watch-this-offseason-from-the-boras-brigade-to-the-red-soxs-decision-on-mookie-betts/

DVauthrin

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2019, 06:22:07 pm »
That is Drehlich’s bitch? I wondered why he had the long knives out.

Yep. The incident also raised questions over the franchise’s previous conduct. Former Astros beat writer Evan Drellich, who now writes for The Athletic, said the club tried to get him bounced when he worked for the Houston Chronicle.

“They were literally trying to get me replaced on the beat. They wanted me gone. They thought I was too critical… Anything in the playbook you could think of. It didn’t work. The editors stood behind me,” said Drellich. “But there was always the strong sense they wanted to control everything. In college sports, that’s how it is all the time.”

https://frntofficesport.com/sports-teams-media/

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HudsonHawk

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2019, 06:25:08 pm »
Jomboy found video of the September 2017 game Farquhar mentioned and made a breakdown.

The White Sox broadcast of the game picks up the banging too.

I didn't hear any banging in the White Sox video, but I did see the catcher not hide the change up sign. 
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2019, 06:40:10 pm »
Rosenthal had an offseason overview piece last week that he ended with a paragraph about his hopes MLB would keep probing the Taubman/SI story.

I'm not sure what there is to investigate. This isn't exactly a whodunit. Taubman's actions and motivation were pretty clear. The team has already given him the maximum punishment, and being really bad at PR isn't technically a violation of MLB rules. The only real mystery is the infamous press release. No sane PR person would have composed that thing. The ranting tone of it makes me suspect that Taubman or an ally dictated it or tampered with it before release. But that would be insubordination and a violation of team policy, not an MLB rule violation. The only obvious thing left for MLB to figure out is whether Taubman deserves punishment beyond what the team imposed.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2019, 06:58:23 pm »
The only obvious thing left for MLB to figure out is whether Taubman deserves punishment beyond what the team imposed.

What could they do to him?  Put him in baseball jail along side the flashers from Washington?
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

JimR

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2019, 07:14:41 pm »
What could they do to him?  Put him in baseball jail along side the flashers from Washington?

Shoeless Joe, Pete Rose, Taubman.

Banned forever.
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SoonerJim

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2019, 07:33:53 pm »
Shoeless Joe, Pete Rose, Taubman.

Banned forever.

A scalp is needed. He’ll do. Make an example out of him

JimR

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2019, 07:42:23 pm »
A scalp is needed. He’ll do. Make an example out of him

Works for me. MF created a huge distraction at the worst possible time.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2019, 07:43:43 pm »
A scalp is needed. He’ll do. Make an example out of him

On a completely unrelated note, I almost got suspended in high school for arguing about whether or not Sidney Carton and Charles Darnay were doppelgangers.  My teacher argued that they must have been identical looking, otherwise Carton could not have taken Darnay's place at the guillotine.  I argued that all that mattered is that someone's head rolled, and whose it was wasn't particularly important....that blood cleansing was the point, not justice. 
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

SoonerJim

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2019, 07:49:33 pm »
Works for me. MF created a huge distraction at the worst possible time.

Absolutely, the task was hard enough as it is. Media sharks circled around #MeToo, and Taubman gave them an entree served hot

austro

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2019, 07:52:08 pm »
On a completely unrelated note, I almost got suspended in high school for arguing about whether or not Sidney Carton and Charles Darnay were doppelgangers.  My teacher argued that they must have been identical looking, otherwise Carton could not have taken Darnay's place at the guillotine.  I argued that all that mattered is that someone's head rolled, and whose it was wasn't particularly important....that blood cleansing was the point, not justice. 

Your reading is entirely plausible. Few if any in the mob waiting for the blade to fall would know who was who, and the powers-that-be who *would* know wouldn't dare postpone the show. One head's as good as another for their purpose.
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SoonerJim

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2019, 08:23:10 pm »
If Houston beat the Nats, I bet none of this browbeating occurs. Winning shuts critics down; far easier to go after the second place team or its program approach

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2019, 09:24:35 pm »
This story appears to be going big nationally. Trending on twitter and it's basically the entire MLB tab on ESPN right now...

In other news, there was no way they were not going to get caught. Players leave the team all the time through trade, free agency and release... and they'll all tell their new teams about what's going on right away. Even players still on the team will talk to their friends. Opposing players were apparently figuring out parts of the scheme in real time. How casual they were about the whole thing lends credence to the 'everybody was doing it' argument.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2019, 09:29:11 pm »
This story appears to be going big nationally. Trending on twitter and it's basically the entire MLB tab on ESPN right now...

Good. The more butt hurt Yankee fans the better. I hope it boils their blood and they turn purple with rage at the thought of the Astros sending their team packing three of the last five  years.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

SoonerJim

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2019, 10:04:20 pm »
With all of these advantages, why did we lose four home games? And why didn’t Altuve get the tipoff memo when he was swinging at every pitch within the Houston area code?

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2019, 10:33:33 pm »
With all of these advantages, why did we lose four home games? And why didn’t Altuve get the tipoff memo when he was swinging at every pitch within the Houston area code?

Because this all happened in 2017, and this article was simply meant as a gigantic FUCK YOU to the Astros by the authors.

DVauthrin

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2019, 10:56:58 pm »
this article was simply meant as a gigantic FUCK YOU to the Astros by the authors.

Of course, it was.  The ex-Astro accusing the team of electronically stealing signs wasn’t on the Astros’ playoff roster at any point during the 2017 postseason, so how would he know what was going on?
Then, one of the two writers of the story holds a grudge against the Astros because he believes they tried to get him fired when he covered the team as a reporter for the Houston Chronicle.
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SoonerJim

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2019, 05:58:32 am »
So we vacate the trophy as USC did in 2004, and the MVP too. Did Alvuve's mom live in a house provided by the booster club, as did Reggie Bush?

JimR

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2019, 06:17:23 am »
This story appears to be going big nationally. Trending on twitter and it's basically the entire MLB tab on ESPN right now.

This seems to be true. One (247 Sports) went so far as to say this “revelation“ (as though it were already a proven fact) taints the 2017 WS win. Players are making condemning comments. 1000% of the condemnation is on the Astros, and very little (nothing?) has been said about a widespread problem throughout MLB. No one has pointed the finger at any other club for using technology to peer in on catcher’s signals. Only the Astros in 2017.

I hate this. This attack attempts to cheapen everything this organization and its players have accomplished. Hard to think of how the Astros can get out in front of and escape this lynch mob mentality and counter the mob groupthink. The “investigation” seems to be the only way to clarify what exactly went on throughout MLB and at Minute Maid in 2017. Right now the media sharks and other players are clearly after Houston. Fiers is despicable. Drehlich is no better.

I will also say if the Astros were breaking an MLB rule with impunity in 2017 or at any time, it should stop and the person(s) responsible should be punished. I do not care who else was doing it. Using a CF camera to steal signs is modern technology’s answer to binoculars in the CF clubhouse by the 1951 NY Giants. Both methods attempt to gain an unfair advantage by breaking a rule. Sign stealing is part of the game (current hysteria notwithstanding), but use of technology to do so is cheating.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2019, 06:27:20 am »
I hate this. This attack attempts to cheapen everything this organization and its players have accomplished. Hard to think of how the Astros can get out in front of and escape this lynch mob mentality and counter the mob groupthink. The “investigation” seems to be the only way to clarify what exactly went on throughout MLB and at Minute Maid in 2017. Right now the media sharks and other players are clearly after Houston. Fiers is despicable. Drehlich is no better.

I love it.  I hope Yankee and Red Sox and Dodger fans everywhere never get a wink of sleep thinking about how the Astros bounced them.  If being hated by the big market clubs is the result of the Astros winning, bring on the hate!
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Col. Sphinx Drummond

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2019, 06:52:42 am »
I love it.  I hope Yankee and Red Sox and Dodger fans everywhere never get a wink of sleep thinking about how the Astros bounced them.  If being hated by the big market clubs is the result of the Astros winning, bring on the hate!
I agree, however, I also agree with Jim and Spleen and they shouldn't have done it. But if the horse is out of the barn, put a saddle on it and ride it with pride.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 06:54:44 am by Col. Sphinx Drummond »
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #48 on: November 13, 2019, 06:53:37 am »
I love it.  I hope Yankee and Red Sox and Dodger fans everywhere never get a wink of sleep thinking about how the Astros bounced them.  If being hated by the big market clubs is the result of the Astros winning, bring on the hate!

I’m with this. Fuck those guys.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #49 on: November 13, 2019, 07:10:11 am »
They can kvetch all they want. Unless MLB does something stupid like vacating wins, etc, I'm not going to worry about it. I will brace for years of "Houston, we have a problem"-style smack but I can take it.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #50 on: November 13, 2019, 07:15:56 am »
I agree, however, I also agree with Jim and Spleen and they shouldn't have done it. But if the horse is out of the barn, put a saddle on it and ride it with pride.

Of course if the Astros broke the rules, they should be punished appropriately.  I'm not advocating they cheat or not face consequences for illegal behavior.  I just don't believe this has anything to do with the Astros cheating, and everything to do with them beating the Yankees, Red Sox and Dodgers.  They are no longer the lovable underdogs, they are the bullies kicking sand in everyone's face.  They have become the New England Patriots of MLB, and I'm glad because I was getting tired of them being the fucking Cleveland Browns. 
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

JJxvi

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #51 on: November 13, 2019, 07:36:11 am »
The Mets and Red Sox may not enjoy a punishment of the perpetrators
« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 07:39:02 am by JJxvi »

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #52 on: November 13, 2019, 07:40:35 am »
To me, this is all a bunch of WFW by all those losers.  I say keep doing what you are doing.  People are assuming the Astros cheated and have judged them.  They, especially Mike Fiers (who let's be honest, no one really gives a shit about), can suck it.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #53 on: November 13, 2019, 07:47:27 am »
I agree, however, I also agree with Jim and Spleen and they shouldn't have done it. But if the horse is out of the barn, put a saddle on it and ride it with pride.

Spleen and maybe you seem to accept the allegations are facts. I do not and am waiting for the statements from MLB and the Astros after the investigation.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #54 on: November 13, 2019, 07:53:26 am »
Of course if the Astros broke the rules, they should be punished appropriately.  I'm not advocating they cheat or not face consequences for illegal behavior.  I just don't believe this has anything to do with the Astros cheating, and everything to do with them beating the Yankees, Red Sox and Dodgers.  They are no longer the lovable underdogs, they are the bullies kicking sand in everyone's face.  They have become the New England Patriots of MLB, and I'm glad because I was getting tired of them being the fucking Cleveland Browns.

I agree with this completely, but I do not like the negative, judgmental attention, and Even Drehlich especially seems to be on a mission to bring the Astros down. I do know however, from my own experience if from nothing else, a fight against the media is unwinnable.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 08:17:27 am by JimR »
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #55 on: November 13, 2019, 07:54:35 am »
Spleen and maybe you seem to accept the allegations are facts. I do not and am waiting for the statements from MLB and the Astros after the investigation.
I don't know the facts but I think Fiers didn't just pull his story out of thin air. 
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #56 on: November 13, 2019, 07:54:44 am »
The Mets and Red Sox may not enjoy a punishment of the perpetrators

True. If the Astros did anything wrong in this area in 2017, Beltran and Cora were in the big middle of it.
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Col. Sphinx Drummond

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #57 on: November 13, 2019, 07:57:11 am »
Beltran is denying any knowledge of it.
Everyone's talking, few of them know
The rest are pretending, they put on a show
And if there's a message I guess this is it
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #58 on: November 13, 2019, 08:02:25 am »
Beltran is denying any knowledge of it.

So that leaves only two possibilities:

1.  He's lying, or
2.  He's not lying.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #59 on: November 13, 2019, 08:03:10 am »
Beltran is denying any knowledge of it.

Good to hear. We need to hear from 2017 Astros. McCann would be nice also.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #60 on: November 13, 2019, 08:04:28 am »
Fiers is just looking out for the little guy. 

That's why when he was facing a young batter who might get sent down if he struggled,  Magnanimous Mike would *not* use pine tar just to give the youngster a fair shake.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #61 on: November 13, 2019, 08:18:51 am »
I don't know the facts but I think Fiers didn't just pull his story out of thin air.

So you obviously believe it. I do not until it has been proven or admitted.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #62 on: November 13, 2019, 08:20:41 am »
Good to hear. We need to hear from 2017 Astros. McCann would be nice also.

We need to hear a real interview with Fiers:

When did you first learn about this?
During what time frame did this occur?
Have you seen it on other teams you played for? If so,  which teams and what methods were employed?
Did all batters participate?
Was it limited to home games?
Was it used in the postseason?
Have you ever cheated to gain a competitive advantage?  Have any of your fellow pitchers cheated?

Col. Sphinx Drummond

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #63 on: November 13, 2019, 08:22:27 am »
So you obviously believe it. I do not until it has been proven or admitted.
I said I don't know the facts. I neither believe of disbelieve. But it's not unbelievable.
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Astros Fan in Big D

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #64 on: November 13, 2019, 08:27:16 am »
It's plausible and wouldn't surprise me if it's true as reported.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #65 on: November 13, 2019, 08:39:42 am »
I said I don't know the facts. I neither believe of disbelieve. But it's not unbelievable.

Then Beltran lied? This allegedly went on in the dugout and in the tunnel immediately adjacent.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #66 on: November 13, 2019, 08:49:56 am »
They have become the New England Patriots of MLB, 

Perfect.  This SI writer gives you exactly that. https://www.si.com/mlb/2019/11/13/astros-steal-signs-spygate-videotaping
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #67 on: November 13, 2019, 08:50:46 am »
The Mets and Red Sox may not enjoy a punishment of the perpetrators

Even more ironic.  We're the Red Sox fined for basically the same thing in 2017?
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #68 on: November 13, 2019, 09:02:31 am »

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #69 on: November 13, 2019, 09:03:19 am »
Even more ironic.  We're the Red Sox fined for basically the same thing in 2017?

Yes.  And there were accusations of the Yankees doing it, and basically having Aaron Judge as the bouncer in tunnel where the video monitor was.  But no one minds when they win. 
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #70 on: November 13, 2019, 09:44:08 am »
On a completely unrelated note, I almost got suspended in high school for arguing about whether or not Sidney Carton and Charles Darnay were doppelgangers.  My teacher argued that they must have been identical looking, otherwise Carton could not have taken Darnay's place at the guillotine.  I argued that all that mattered is that someone's head rolled, and whose it was wasn't particularly important....that blood cleansing was the point, not justice.

Isn't there a whole part where Carton is looking up at the ceiling so people can't get a look at his face when Darnay catches a reflection that reveals a spitting image?
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #71 on: November 13, 2019, 10:04:21 am »
Will we be forgiven if NYY uses this as Cole signing leverage? We can buy indulgences and nail his new contract on the door of Yankee Stadium.
Since NY runs a clean operation and all. Judge's "shock" at learning of this alleged infraction is high comedy.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #72 on: November 13, 2019, 10:09:00 am »
Then Beltran lied? This allegedly went on in the dugout and in the tunnel immediately adjacent.

I wouldn't expect him to be forthright about it, just like I wouldn't expect anyone with any team to be forthright about it.  Of course, he's one week into his first managerial gig so it's also not in his best interest to lie.

I think the whole thing is plausible, but I question the feasibility of doing it on any sort of large scale.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #73 on: November 13, 2019, 10:10:48 am »
Of course, it was.  The ex-Astro accusing the team of electronically stealing signs wasn’t on the Astros’ playoff roster at any point during the 2017 postseason, so how would he know what was going on?

You know Fiers was in the dugout for every postseason game, right?  It may not have a bearing in this story, but he wasn't one of the players they sent home.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #74 on: November 13, 2019, 10:16:12 am »
There's blood in the water around this team, from a number of different angles, creating a feeding frenzy that probably isn't going away anytime soon.  Should help the media outlets involved keep the hot stove warm while Boras fucks around.

The narratives:

1. Cheating/sign stealing.  Fiers is a butthurt snitch, and this is widespread throughout the league.  He just went on record about it.  How brave. /wanking motion   As noted above, MLB has already taken the steps to make this illegal for all teams; unless I'm missing something, it wasn't illegal in 2017.  WFW.

2. Taubman.  He's an asshole, and he probably wasn't the only asshole on staff.  The PR bungling creates the perception that they're ALL assholes.  "I'm surrounded by Assholes!"

3. General front office nonsense.  Because Luhnow et al are clearly cold, heartless numbers-driven sharks, any slip up in free agent negotiation, staff turnover, etc. is viewed through that lens.

The thing I hate most about this is that (unlike the Patriots), we have a genuinely likeable group of players to root for here.  I can't think of better representatives for our city that Altuve, Springer and Verlander.  And Hinch, for that matter.

In summary, they hate us 'cause they ain't us.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #75 on: November 13, 2019, 10:22:51 am »
I see fines levied. The critical issue is whether Hinch or others get suspended, as had happened to Sean Payton and Gregg Williams in "bountygate". It's a way to cleanse the league.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #76 on: November 13, 2019, 10:24:44 am »
unless I'm missing something, it wasn't illegal in 2017.  WFW.


I thought using technology to steal signs was always against the rules, and the new rules regarding camera placement and usage this year were just put in place to shore up prevention.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #77 on: November 13, 2019, 10:41:32 am »
I thought using technology to steal signs was always against the rules, and the new rules regarding camera placement and usage this year were just put in place to shore up prevention.

Yeah, the Red Sox got fined in the same season for using Apple Watches.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #78 on: November 13, 2019, 11:10:20 am »
You know Fiers was in the dugout for every postseason game, right?  It may not have a bearing in this story, but he wasn't one of the players they sent home.

Clearly, I didn’t. My mistake, and thank you for the correction.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #79 on: November 13, 2019, 11:13:29 am »
If you want to read more, a lot more, about this crap today's astroscounty has a lot to peruse.

 http://www.astroscounty.com/2019/11/the-athletic-bombshell-and-astros.html

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #80 on: November 13, 2019, 11:17:49 am »
Yeah, the Red Sox got fined in the same season for using Apple Watches.

They sure did.  And you know why they got caught?  Because the Yankees had a camera pointed at the Red Sox dugout.  But when the Astros take video of opponents' dugouts specifically for the exact same defensive purposes, it gets spun as further evidence of cheating. 

As for the consequences to the Astros, it will likely be more significant than the Red Sox's fine.  When the Commissioner fined the Red Sox, he stated that "all 30 Clubs have been notified that future violations of this type will be subject to more serious sanctions, including the possible loss of draft picks."  The Danny Farquhar game that Jomboy posted came after the Commissioner's statement.  And while I personally couldn't hear the alleged signal from the dugout, even with the detailed explanation, I suspect that the timing of that game will be enough to justify the front office giving the mob what they want.   

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #81 on: November 13, 2019, 11:26:16 am »
I wouldn't expect him to be forthright about it, just like I wouldn't expect anyone with any team to be forthright about it.  Of course, he's one week into his first managerial gig so it's also not in his best interest to lie.

I think the whole thing is plausible, but I question the feasibility of doing it on any sort of large scale.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #82 on: November 13, 2019, 11:27:18 am »
They have become the New England Patriots of MLB.

I'll take it if they win 5 more championships.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #83 on: November 13, 2019, 11:42:02 am »
No excuse for lying, Waldo. None.

I agree wholeheartedly.

But lying to the media is commonplace, especially when folks are protecting their self interests.

No,  he wasn't tipping pitches.
No,  we weren't throwing at him.  Ball just got away.
Our runners aren't stealing signs.
No,  I'm not the world's biggest douche (that one is A-Rod specific).

That's not justification,  just a way for me to prepare to hear bad things about people I like.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #84 on: November 13, 2019, 11:50:02 am »
I agree wholeheartedly.

But lying to the media is commonplace, especially when folks are protecting their self interests.

Yep.  I don't know if Beltran is lying or not, but I can see why he would.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #85 on: November 13, 2019, 11:55:41 am »
Yep.  I don't know if Beltran is lying or not, but I can see why he would.

So, lies are justified? You’ll have a great time with teen-aged children.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #86 on: November 13, 2019, 12:27:12 pm »
So, lies are justified? You’ll have a great time with teen-aged children.

Others are welcome to feel differently, but to me, there is a wide difference between the sort of lies that AFiBD describes and the lies that were told in the wake of the Taubman incident. The Taubman thing got corrected, appropriate apologies were made and hopefully accepted, the book is closed on that unfortunate incident as far as I'm concerned.

I don't know that anyone is arguing that lying is justified, but if a pitcher whose shoulder is bothering him comes off the mound and tells the press, No, I felt great out there, well, I'm not ready to crucify him.

I have no great love for Beltran and no great love for the Mets, but his saying he knew nothing about it might mean just that he never asked for or received any of the information being offered. If it was happening, the whole team surely knew about it. But what are they supposed to say now? Yes, I knew, and I was scandalized! I mean, come on. These guys have surely all watched The First 48. Just keep quiet and there's only so much anyone can do.

Anyway, the banging noise is plainly audible to me through regular computer speakers, and clear as day if you wear headphones. The Astros were clearly using technology to steal signs in 2017. They were clearly not the only team to be doing so. I'm not sure what the statute of limitations is on something like that, and I don't know how useful it would be to litigate the misbehavior of any team from several seasons ago. I would hope that the league would just re-iterate its current policy regarding the use of technology to steal signs, and it might be useful to express what a minimum penalty for a violation might look like, loss of a first round pick, you know, whatever it might be.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #87 on: November 13, 2019, 12:42:53 pm »
There's blood in the water around this team, from a number of different angles, creating a feeding frenzy that probably isn't going away anytime soon.  Should help the media outlets involved keep the hot stove warm while Boras fucks around.

The narratives:

1. Cheating/sign stealing.  Fiers is a butthurt snitch, and this is widespread throughout the league.  He just went on record about it.  How brave. /wanking motion   As noted above, MLB has already taken the steps to make this illegal for all teams; unless I'm missing something, it wasn't illegal in 2017.  WFW.

2. Taubman.  He's an asshole, and he probably wasn't the only asshole on staff.  The PR bungling creates the perception that they're ALL assholes.  "I'm surrounded by Assholes!"

3. General front office nonsense.  Because Luhnow et al are clearly cold, heartless numbers-driven sharks, any slip up in free agent negotiation, staff turnover, etc. is viewed through that lens.

The thing I hate most about this is that (unlike the Patriots), we have a genuinely likeable group of players to root for here.  I can't think of better representatives for our city that Altuve, Springer and Verlander.  And Hinch, for that matter.

In summary, they hate us 'cause they ain't us.

The media template right now to generate clicks or social media traffic for pretty much any major league baseball offseason discussion that doesnt have anything to with like free agency or hot stove or whatever is as follows...

1) Headline that implies or outright says that "the Astros are awful, here is what they are doing"
2) Story about a widespread "problem" that all of major league baseball has

Example...this was ESPN.com's big Astros story yesterday before they got railroaded by this story.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/insider/story/_/id/28059274/why-george-springer-free-agent-winter

« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 12:46:56 pm by JJxvi »

SoonerJim

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #88 on: November 13, 2019, 01:15:18 pm »
The media template right now to generate clicks or social media traffic for pretty much any major league baseball offseason discussion that doesnt have anything to with like free agency or hot stove or whatever is as follows...

1) Headline that implies or outright says that "the Astros are awful, here is what they are doing"
2) Story about a widespread "problem" that all of major league baseball has

Example...this was ESPN.com's big Astros story yesterday before they got railroaded by this story.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/insider/story/_/id/28059274/why-george-springer-free-agent-winter

Yes, the MLB contract structure cheats the players, but only Springer is singled out to play this generation’s Curt Flood. Were he clad in BoSox or pinstripes, this fantasy piece would not exist

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #89 on: November 13, 2019, 01:19:40 pm »
Yes, the MLB contract structure cheats the players, but only Springer is singled out to play this generation’s Curt Flood. Were he clad in BoSox or pinstripes, this fantasy piece would not exist

File that story under WFW.

Don't like that management tactic? 

Negotiate it out of the CBA.




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Re: More controversy
« Reply #90 on: November 13, 2019, 01:22:58 pm »
Oh, the Humanity!!

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #91 on: November 13, 2019, 01:35:08 pm »
Yes, the MLB contract structure cheats the players, but only Springer is singled out to play this generation’s Curt Flood. Were he clad in BoSox or pinstripes, this fantasy piece would not exist

Man this martyrdom complex is amazing.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #92 on: November 13, 2019, 02:03:48 pm »
I am waiting for the investigation to finish.  But to date, the only person who has commented that I have any respect for is Darvish.

https://twitter.com/faridyu/status/1194380767671070724
Boom!

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #93 on: November 13, 2019, 02:39:33 pm »
My response to the haters is:

"yes, the Astros cheated.  Specifically, they cheated your team and by extension you.  You should be forever haunted in your dreams by the image of Marwin Gonzalez taking Kenley Jansen deep and effectively stealing food from your table.  #NEVERFORGET!."
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #94 on: November 13, 2019, 02:47:34 pm »
I just had a chilling thought: what if Taubman snitches to MLB to save his own future career in professional baseball, and the repercussions end up being huge?

Thinking about this during the impeachment hearings is bad juju.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #95 on: November 13, 2019, 02:51:17 pm »
They’ll pay him off before he talks, lest he harm the game. Better chance Houston surrenders a passel of draft picks

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #96 on: November 13, 2019, 03:02:50 pm »
My response to the haters is:

"yes, the Astros cheated.  Specifically, they cheated your team and by extension you.  You should be forever haunted in your dreams by the image of Marwin Gonzalez taking Kenley Jansen deep and effectively stealing food from your table.  #NEVERFORGET!."

Slick trick to cheat in Dodger Stadium.
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SoonerJim

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #97 on: November 13, 2019, 03:07:57 pm »
Slick trick to cheat in Dodger Stadium.

And our road record is historically better of late; our cheating operation is unparalleled. It’s even better on the road

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #98 on: November 13, 2019, 03:09:47 pm »
Slick trick to cheat in Dodger Stadium.

The article had the desired effect.

The unwashed masses don't pick up on nuances like that.

I'm sure they'll chase after the next shiny object that happens along.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #99 on: November 13, 2019, 03:10:25 pm »
Slick trick to cheat in Dodger Stadium.

You know Blummer was sitting in the outfield.  He could have been the one stealing signs.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #100 on: November 13, 2019, 04:07:33 pm »
All of this is so much BS. There’s so much talent on this team. I’m not even going to read anymore about it. Take a draft pick... whatever....

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #101 on: November 13, 2019, 05:02:49 pm »
True. If the Astros did anything wrong in this area in 2017, Beltran and Cora were in the big middle of it.

I was out of pocket yesterday when the but this above was my first thought.  Beltran was the hero in the dugout who is the expert at picking up pitchers tipping their pitches.  Who was doing the same thing in NY.  Cora was the coach credited with all the improvement in the batter's approach at the plate.  There is no way they were not aware of this happening. 


This morning, the Athletic's 'the lead' podcast had Rosenthal on it to talk about it and he was did a good job of pointing out that this was bigger than an Astros issue and that the investigation will likely have the effect of pointing out other teams.  He pointed out that when the Red Sox were punished the yankees also received a fine for improper use of a dugout phone the prior season. 
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #102 on: November 13, 2019, 05:11:22 pm »
You know Blummer was sitting in the outfield.  He could have been the one stealing signs.

I saw one article blaming Bobby Dynamite. 

It's almost worth losing a draft pick to see the wailing and gnashing of teeth by Dodger and Yankee fans. 
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #103 on: November 13, 2019, 05:23:50 pm »
I saw one article blaming Bobby Dynamite. 

That's hilarious.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #104 on: November 13, 2019, 05:38:00 pm »
I saw one article blaming Bobby Dynamite. 

It's almost worth losing a draft pick to see the wailing and gnashing of teeth by Dodger and Yankee fans.

Some ex-Red Sox reliever today blamed the bullpen catcher. The conspiracy widens.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #105 on: November 13, 2019, 05:56:20 pm »
Some ex-Red Sox reliever today blamed the bullpen catcher. The conspiracy widens.

Yordan knocked out the false panel on the big screen, nearly revealing the security guard with a maglite who was relaying signals.  Luckily the emergency napalm charges went off before anyone was the wiser.

In unrelated news there's a job opening in the security department at MMPUS.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #106 on: November 13, 2019, 05:58:53 pm »
Some ex-Red Sox reliever today blamed the bullpen catcher. The conspiracy widens.

Some yahoo yesterday was expounding on how the Astros could easily have some anonymous looking guy sitting in Torchy's, watching the catcher's sign and signaling by a gesture...touching his cap, sipping his beer, etc.  I explained that it was hard enough to pick up the catcher's sign from the mound, 60 feet away, and it's pretty much impossible to see it from the centerfield bleachers 475 feet away...and not to get me started on the hitter picking out one guy in a sea of thousands.  He didn't buy it.  He's convinced that if you sit in the outfield stands, you have pretty much the same detailed view as you have sitting on your couch. 
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #107 on: November 13, 2019, 06:00:23 pm »
Some yahoo yesterday was expounding on how the Astros could easily have some anonymous looking guy sitting in Torchy's, watching the catcher's sign and signaling by a gesture...touching his cap, sipping his beer, etc.  I explained that it was hard enough to pick up the catcher's sign from the mound, 60 feet away, and it's pretty much impossible to see it from the centerfield bleachers 475 feet away...and not to get me started on the hitter picking out one guy in a sea of thousands.  He didn't buy it.  He's convinced that if you sit in the outfield stands, you have pretty much the same detailed view as you have sitting on your couch.

Well that dude is an idiot.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 06:02:40 pm by Astros Fan in Big D »

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #108 on: November 13, 2019, 06:11:58 pm »
Some yahoo yesterday was expounding on how the Astros could easily have some anonymous looking guy sitting in Torchy's, watching the catcher's sign and signaling by a gesture...touching his cap, sipping his beer, etc.  I explained that it was hard enough to pick up the catcher's sign from the mound, 60 feet away, and it's pretty much impossible to see it from the centerfield bleachers 475 feet away...and not to get me started on the hitter picking out one guy in a sea of thousands.  He didn't buy it.  He's convinced that if you sit in the outfield stands, you have pretty much the same detailed view as you have sitting on your couch.

Fucking idiots abound.
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chuck

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #109 on: November 13, 2019, 06:13:46 pm »
Wait. What if there are two guys in Torchy's stealing signs... and they're doppelgangers???
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #110 on: November 13, 2019, 06:32:51 pm »


  I explained that it was hard enough to pick up the catcher's sign from the mound, 60 feet away, and it's pretty much impossible to see it from the centerfield bleachers 475 feet away...

As someone who has been yelled at by plenty of catchers over the years. I challenge anyone to go stand on a mound, have your friend crouch down and nearly close his legs together and give you 2, 3, 4 signs and keep it straight. Then run to the foul poll and back, get you a good sweat going and try again. It's not nearly as easy as it looks.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #111 on: November 13, 2019, 07:03:54 pm »
https://blogs.fangraphs.com/was-mike-fiers-cheating-during-his-no-hitter/

This may have been mentioned or posted earlier.  If so, my apologies.

 It’s not like this guy hasn’t been accused of things in his baseball life.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #112 on: November 14, 2019, 08:08:10 am »
Beltran speaks. Good. Waiting for others. Cora? You’re up.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #113 on: November 14, 2019, 08:21:56 am »
Beltran speaks. Good. Waiting for others. Cora? You’re up.
According to reports that I read this morning, Cora declined to comment.
https://sports.yahoo.com/report-red-sox-manager-alex-cora-mets-carlos-beltran-implicated-in-astros-signstealing-scheme-055319318.html

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #114 on: November 14, 2019, 08:51:33 am »
Rosenthal has hinted at how widespread this is.

Wonder if they have the goods on other teams.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #115 on: November 14, 2019, 08:54:16 am »
Rosenthal has hinted at how widespread this is.

Wonder if they have the goods on other teams.

Maybe Fiers knows.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #116 on: November 14, 2019, 08:59:07 am »
Rosenthal has hinted at how widespread this is.

Wonder if they have the goods on other teams.

There are the latest tech cameras in every ballpark.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #117 on: November 14, 2019, 09:02:51 am »
Maybe Fiers knows.

I'm sure he's too busy running his orphanage for young pitchers to comment.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 09:45:37 am by Astros Fan in Big D »

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #118 on: November 14, 2019, 09:25:13 am »
Maybe Fiers knows.

His contract expires after next season.  I wonder if any team will be willing to sign him?
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #119 on: November 14, 2019, 09:32:23 am »
Now the media is offering video “proof” the Astros cheated in 4/19 v. NYY with bangs from the dugout for a changeup.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #120 on: November 14, 2019, 09:34:10 am »
Are they sure the dugout banging wasn't coming from Gardner?
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #121 on: November 14, 2019, 09:42:33 am »
Are they sure the dugout banging wasn't coming from Gardner?

Ha! I just think making that much noice to signal a hitter is a bit less than clandestine. Did the HPU never walk over to ask “WTF are you doing?”
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #122 on: November 14, 2019, 09:43:18 am »
So reading between the lines...the accused player/coach is going to end up being Cora and Beltran and is also the reason the 2018 ALCS was so bizarre and nutso with the paranoia?

Looks like you nailed it.  Rosenthal and Drellich have a follow-up this morning in which "sources said" that both Cora and Beltran "played a key role in devising the sign-stealing system."

Meanwhile, Verducci indicated yesterday that "another former Astro may have information to share regarding a sign-stealing scheme by Houston this year."  He also adds that another source has said that the team did not have a whistling-based sign stealing scheme against the Yankees, but were merely whistling in order to get into the Yankees heads.  Which would delight me, honestly. 

chuck

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #123 on: November 14, 2019, 09:49:51 am »
Yeah, I mean, obviously, the next time the Astros want to get a pitcher rattled just have someone start beating on shit in the hallway. Hell, do it on the road, too, spice things up a little.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #124 on: November 14, 2019, 09:50:59 am »
I truly believe that the Taubman fiasco, especially the lame-ass attempt to discredit the SI piece, left the Astros ass exposed and the media is not holding back with the paddle.

Fine.  Just don't stop with Houston. We've been told that suspicions are rampant amongst contenders.   Tear back the curtain.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #125 on: November 14, 2019, 09:51:57 am »
Yeah, I mean, obviously, the next time the Astros want to get a pitcher rattled just have someone start beating on shit in the hallway. Hell, do it on the road, too, spice things up a little.

Orbit could borrow Oscar the Grouch's can.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #126 on: November 14, 2019, 09:55:52 am »
I think the fans should whistle also.  The whole stadium whistling would be funny to me.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #127 on: November 14, 2019, 09:56:56 am »
I truly believe that the Taubman fiasco, especially the lame-ass attempt to discredit the SI piece, left the Astros ass exposed and the media is not holding back with the paddle.

Fine.  Just don't stop with Houston. We've been told that suspicions are rampant amongst contenders.   Tear back the curtain.

I don't believe for a minute that the Taubman fiasco isn't related to the sign stealing crap.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #128 on: November 14, 2019, 10:37:27 am »
I don't believe for a minute that the Taubman fiasco isn't related to the sign stealing crap.

Me either. Now they think they have a reason to attack and to pile on.
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doyce7

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #129 on: November 14, 2019, 12:36:58 pm »
This is why you don't piss off, and basically declare war on, the media

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #130 on: November 14, 2019, 12:38:14 pm »
This is why you don't piss off, and basically declare war on, the media

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #131 on: November 14, 2019, 01:11:04 pm »
Stephen A. Smith now says Altuve’s walkoff against Chapman was 2019 sign stealing. Make it stop.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #132 on: November 14, 2019, 01:23:57 pm »
Stephen A. Smith now says Altuve’s walkoff against Chapman was 2019 sign stealing. Make it stop.

I wonder why he didn't swing at the slider Chapman threw immediately before.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #133 on: November 14, 2019, 01:30:54 pm »
I have doubts that Stephen A. Smith has ever watched a baseball game. I would bet folding money he's never sat through an entire game in person.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #134 on: November 14, 2019, 01:31:37 pm »
I wonder why he didn't swing at the slider Chapman threw immediately before.

I wonder how almost everyone in the stands knew he would throw a slider because he could not get his FB over? Did we all hear banging in the dugout?
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #135 on: November 14, 2019, 02:12:42 pm »
I wonder how almost everyone in the stands knew he would throw a slider because he could not get his FB over? Did we all hear banging in the dugout?

In his head he thought "what's that banging?"

Then his brain transposed it to "leave it hanging."

AJ Hinch's psychology skills at work.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #136 on: November 14, 2019, 02:17:15 pm »
Stephen A. Smith now says Altuve’s walkoff against Chapman was 2019 sign stealing. Make it stop.

LOL, did he see the pitch location? Chapman knew where it was headed the second he let it go.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #137 on: November 14, 2019, 02:19:28 pm »
Stephen A. Smith now says Altuve’s walkoff against Chapman was 2019 sign stealing. Make it stop.

The next time SAS says something relevant will be the first.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #138 on: November 14, 2019, 02:39:19 pm »
The next time SAS says something relevant will be the first.

Total agreement here. He is an idiot.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #139 on: November 14, 2019, 02:47:07 pm »
Total agreement here. He is an idiot.

He'd need to climb several pegs to reach that status.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #140 on: November 14, 2019, 02:50:42 pm »
The ESPN segment Smith and Kellerman did was programming gold. Kellerman said were this college football, Houston would have to vacate the World Series. You’d be excused if you thought Houston was running a drug ring, oh, that was the ‘86 Mets

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #141 on: November 14, 2019, 03:04:26 pm »
He'd need to climb several pegs to reach that status.

Ha.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #142 on: November 14, 2019, 03:10:09 pm »
The latest from  Score:

some details of how the scheme operated.

Trevor Plouffe, a nine-year veteran who last played in 2018, explained that the Astros used a live feed to capture the opposing catcher's signals to the pitcher, then used technology to relay that information to the bullpen catcher, who would then indicate whether the pitch was a fastball or offspeed by putting his hands up on the fence or keeping them down. Plouffe's information came courtesy of big-league pitcher Carson Smith as well as an unnamed source.
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NeilT

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #143 on: November 14, 2019, 03:13:43 pm »
The latest from  Score:

some details of how the scheme operated.

Trevor Plouffe, a nine-year veteran who last played in 2018, explained that the Astros used a live feed to capture the opposing catcher's signals to the pitcher, then used technology to relay that information to the bullpen catcher, who would then indicate whether the pitch was a fastball or offspeed by putting his hands up on the fence or keeping them down. Plouffe's information came courtesy of big-league pitcher Carson Smith as well as an unnamed source.

That seems unnecessarily complicated, and something that everyone in the bullpen would have known.
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The Spleen

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #144 on: November 14, 2019, 03:15:27 pm »
The bullpen catcher is also going to be busy doing other things for much of the game.
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NeilT

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #145 on: November 14, 2019, 03:18:42 pm »
The bullpen catcher is also going to be busy doing other things for much of the game.

What's more important than stealing signs?
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doyce7

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #146 on: November 14, 2019, 03:20:44 pm »
The latest from  Score:

some details of how the scheme operated.

Trevor Plouffe, a nine-year veteran who last played in 2018, explained that the Astros used a live feed to capture the opposing catcher's signals to the pitcher, then used technology to relay that information to the bullpen catcher, who would then indicate whether the pitch was a fastball or offspeed by putting his hands up on the fence or keeping them down. Plouffe's information came courtesy of big-league pitcher Carson Smith as well as an unnamed source.
And all this happened in .5 seconds? Yeah ok

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #147 on: November 14, 2019, 03:22:42 pm »
And all this happened in .5 seconds? Yeah ok

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And like the batter would be concentrating on the bullpen instead of the pitcher...what a load of horseshit.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #148 on: November 14, 2019, 03:23:09 pm »
Tough decision for AJ to warm up a reliever during a critical at bat in late innings.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #149 on: November 14, 2019, 03:46:04 pm »
And like the batter would be concentrating on the bullpen instead of the pitcher...what a load of horseshit.

Nah, the bullpen guy is signaling the guy in the dugout who is doing the banging. The hitter is listening for the banging.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #150 on: November 14, 2019, 03:55:59 pm »
I don't think so. I think there are two different methods being described here.

One, the Astros have a monitor in the hallway that carries the feed of a camera they have (hidden?) in centerfield somewhere. There's a guy with a bat watching the feed and whacking a trash can accordingly.

I think the bullpen catcher method is a totally different approach, and as plausible as I find the trash can conga, I don't see how this bullpen catcher business is supposed to work. For one thing, there are many, many facial closeups of batters throughout the game. I pay close attention to what they look at when the pitcher is on the mound (and before), and I have never seen anyone shoot glances out into right field, never mind regularly, never mind before literally every pitch.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #151 on: November 14, 2019, 03:59:38 pm »
But the good news is, this just gives the Astros another way to fuck with other teams. You'll have guys on the bench doing the Bridge Over the River Kwai, some joker in the hallway going Keith Moon on a trash can, dudes in the bullpen lined up waving like human semaphore... Next season is shaping up to be a lot of fun, Cole or no Cole.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #152 on: November 14, 2019, 04:11:24 pm »
But the good news is, this just gives the Astros another way to fuck with other teams. You'll have guys on the bench doing the Bridge Over the River Kwai, some joker in the hallway going Keith Moon on a trash can, dudes in the bullpen lined up waving like human semaphore... Next season is shaping up to be a lot of fun, Cole or no Cole.

Trash can lid promotion night at Minute Maid park for NYY. Bring a garbage can lid, get a special Altuve-special ALCS walkoff commemorative miniature bat to bang incessantly at the top of each inning when the Yanks come to bat

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #153 on: November 14, 2019, 04:14:58 pm »
But the good news is, this just gives the Astros another way to fuck with other teams. You'll have guys on the bench doing the Bridge Over the River Kwai, some joker in the hallway going Keith Moon on a trash can, dudes in the bullpen lined up waving like human semaphore... Next season is shaping up to be a lot of fun, Cole or no Cole.

I think the Astros and fans should fully embrace this.

Cowbells,  mini bats with garbage cans.

Slide whistles.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 04:17:32 pm by Astros Fan in Big D »

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #154 on: November 14, 2019, 04:22:28 pm »
But the good news is, this just gives the Astros another way to fuck with other teams. You'll have guys on the bench doing the Bridge Over the River Kwai, some joker in the hallway going Keith Moon on a trash can, dudes in the bullpen lined up waving like human semaphore... Next season is shaping up to be a lot of fun, Cole or no Cole.

I like it.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #155 on: November 14, 2019, 04:27:35 pm »
Trained monkeys in the foul line seats. Make it happen

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #156 on: November 14, 2019, 04:46:33 pm »
The latest from  Score:

some details of how the scheme operated.

Trevor Plouffe, a nine-year veteran who last played in 2018, explained that the Astros used a live feed to capture the opposing catcher's signals to the pitcher, then used technology to relay that information to the bullpen catcher, who would then indicate whether the pitch was a fastball or offspeed by putting his hands up on the fence or keeping them down. Plouffe's information came courtesy of big-league pitcher Carson Smith as well as an unnamed source.

WTF do Trevor Plouffe and Carson Smith know about the Astros sign-stealing operation?  Neither played for the Astros.  How could they possibly know about the "live feed" or the "relay technology."  Seems like the "unnamed source" is doing a lot of the work here (and elsewhere).

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #157 on: November 14, 2019, 05:01:06 pm »
WTF do Trevor Plouffe and Carson Smith know about the Astros sign-stealing operation?  Neither played for the Astros.  How could they possibly know about the "live feed" or the "relay technology."  Seems like the "unnamed source" is doing a lot of the work here (and elsewhere).

They're probably going on what they heard from players who were current or former Astros. Of course those guys could have been lying, especially if they were still on the team. They might have exaggerated the extent or effectiveness of the spying to mess with other players' heads, or they might have lied about the methods so it would be harder for opponents to counter.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #158 on: November 14, 2019, 05:27:40 pm »
The latest from  Score:

some details of how the scheme operated.

Trevor Plouffe, a nine-year veteran who last played in 2018, explained that the Astros used a live feed to capture the opposing catcher's signals to the pitcher, then used technology to relay that information to the bullpen catcher, who would then indicate whether the pitch was a fastball or offspeed by putting his hands up on the fence or keeping them down. Plouffe's information came courtesy of big-league pitcher Carson Smith as well as an unnamed source.

Best response to this
[T-Pain voice]
All I do is win win win no matter what/
Got signals going live I can never get enough/
And every time we hear it is a fastball, Bracamonte's hands go up/
And they stay there
Always ready to go to a game.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #159 on: November 14, 2019, 06:24:40 pm »
The latest from  Score:

some details of how the scheme operated.

Trevor Plouffe, a nine-year veteran who last played in 2018, explained that the Astros used a live feed to capture the opposing catcher's signals to the pitcher, then used technology to relay that information to the bullpen catcher, who would then indicate whether the pitch was a fastball or offspeed by putting his hands up on the fence or keeping them down. Plouffe's information came courtesy of big-league pitcher Carson Smith as well as an unnamed source.

Carson Smith never even played a game in Minute Maid.  What the fuck would he know?
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #160 on: November 14, 2019, 06:31:15 pm »
Blummer's podcast:

Listen to Bleacher Blums #46 by Blummer27 on #SoundCloud
https://soundcloud.com/user-993721358/bleacher-blums-46

ETA:  The discussion picks up around the 16 minute mark.
The podcast features Blum and ex-pitcher David Tuttle.
-bangs on trash cans *prove* nothing about whether electronics were used to relay the pitch; signals from dugout are ancient
-both agree that using electronics crosses the line
-Blum gives Fiers a modicum of credit for not being anonymous. But he is obviously disgusted by his revelation.  He burned every ex-teammate in the room.  And every current teammate should watch his ass around Fiers.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 07:48:50 pm by Astros Fan in Big D »

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #161 on: November 14, 2019, 07:12:24 pm »
They're probably going on what they heard from players who were current or former Astros. Of course those guys could have been lying, especially if they were still on the team. They might have exaggerated the extent or effectiveness of the spying to mess with other players' heads, or they might have lied about the methods so it would be harder for opponents to counter.

Now I'm beginning to wonder if different front-office people have been told different stories so that a leaker can be identified.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #162 on: November 15, 2019, 06:56:21 am »
Best response to this
[T-Pain voice]
All I do is win win win no matter what/
Got signals going live I can never get enough/
And every time we hear it is a fastball, Bracamonte's hands go up/
And they stay there

Outstanding


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Re: More controversy
« Reply #163 on: November 15, 2019, 07:10:54 am »
One article today is quoting unidentified GMs as wanting the 2017 WS title vacated.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #164 on: November 15, 2019, 07:17:00 am »
One article today is quoting unidentified GMs as wanting the 2017 WS title vacated.

He goes by the anonymous name of "BCASHMAN69"
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #165 on: November 15, 2019, 07:47:21 am »
The extreme anger and butthurt by Dodger and Yankee fans over this is the greatest thing to happen to baseball since the invention of the baseball.  They're calling for the Astros to be stripped of the title, banning for life of all Astros player, and long jail time for A.J. Hinch.  This is awesome. 
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #166 on: November 15, 2019, 07:59:52 am »
The extreme anger and butthurt by Dodger and Yankee fans over this is the greatest thing to happen to baseball since the invention of the baseball.  They're calling for the Astros to be stripped of the title, banning for life of all Astros player, and long jail time for A.J. Hinch.  This is awesome.

And think of the resulting book and movie. Who's our Charlie Sheen? How will we cast the principle actors?

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #167 on: November 15, 2019, 09:17:19 am »
One article today is quoting unidentified GMs as wanting the 2017 WS title vacated.

You had to know that was coming.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #168 on: November 15, 2019, 09:22:07 am »
One article today is quoting unidentified GMs as wanting the 2017 WS title vacated.

AJ and Luhnow should probably be executed.


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Re: More controversy
« Reply #169 on: November 15, 2019, 10:10:11 am »
One article today is quoting unidentified GMs as wanting the 2017 WS title vacated.

1. That would effectively be the end of the Astros as a franchise.
2. If even a fraction of the rumors about spying are true, it would be the start of a catastrophic cascading failure as journalists continue to do deep dives into the topic and anyone connected to the Astros with any knowledge throws other teams under the bus.

Even half seriously talking about that is insane...
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #170 on: November 15, 2019, 10:22:13 am »
One article today is quoting unidentified GMs as wanting the 2017 WS title vacated.

That unidentified GM can officially go fuck himself.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #171 on: November 15, 2019, 10:29:59 am »
1. That would effectively be the end of the Astros as a franchise.

Kill them all, let Selig sort them out!


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chuck

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #172 on: November 15, 2019, 10:57:46 am »
One article today is quoting unidentified GMs as wanting the 2017 WS title vacated.

Where are you seeing this? I didn't look very hard, but neither could I find the video that shows banging in the game against the Yankees in April of this year.

Another thing that just occurred to me, someone absolutely has to use Bang a Gong as their walk-up music next year.
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chuck

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #174 on: November 15, 2019, 12:27:37 pm »
I don't have the same martyr complex about this that a lot of you do, and if the Astros or any other team used or uses technology to cheat, they should be punished. But this, allegedly from a fucking GM, is the sort of thing that debases the discussion drives me into a blind rage.

Quote
“They’ve been cheating, they still are cheating, and it’s time MLB puts a stop to it,’’ one National League GM said. “Come on, they won 60 games at home this year. Look at their numbers when guys are on base (MLB-best .282 average) since 2017. The banging of garbage cans and pipes (as a way to convey signs). The whistles. Everything.

When guys are on base?! It is totally legal for players to steal signs if they are on base, you fucking idiot.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #175 on: November 15, 2019, 12:32:23 pm »
Martyr complex? Not this guy. I am furious.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #176 on: November 15, 2019, 01:50:11 pm »

When guys are on base?! It is totally legal for players to steal signs if they are on base, you fucking idiot.
No no, they do it “electronically” and they purposely don’t steal signs “electronically” when there is no one on, it helps maintain the ruse.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #177 on: November 15, 2019, 02:00:42 pm »
What pisses me off is the way this diminishes the Astros offensive accomplishments. And that Nightingale article implies that Darvish got a lesser contact because the Astros cheated. Fuck him.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #178 on: November 15, 2019, 02:01:27 pm »
Its been a while for me to post. Yep I am a lurker. 
This whole thing is bothering me.  As I am watching a game from the center field camera angle I think to myself, self couldn't they use this tv broadcast to steal signs?  Oh yeah, the Astros are cheating as they are the only ones that have those center field cameras.  This is a bunch of horse shit.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #179 on: November 15, 2019, 02:21:21 pm »
Martyr complex? Not this guy. I am furious.

1. I believe they used electronics illegally
2. I believe they'll be punished
3. I don't like that this violation happened
4. I don't buy for 1 second all the feigned anger/disbelief coming from unnamed MLB sources.  It's like a college football team complaining that another school is paying players. Or a politician calling someone a hypocrite.
5. Justice would demand that the schemes of other teams be revealed.   But this isn't a courtroom and the Astros could totally get hung out to dry.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #180 on: November 15, 2019, 02:34:06 pm »
What pisses me off is the way this diminishes the Astros offensive accomplishments. And that Nightingale article implies that Darvish got a lesser contact because the Astros cheated. Fuck him.

This is my main source of anger also. The Astros and their achievements are getting crucified by bloodthirsty media speculation or by other players. Only Beltran has responded. Maybe MLB, Crane, or Luhnow instructed Astros players not to comment, but the Astros’ lack of an emphatic response is hurting them.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #181 on: November 15, 2019, 02:39:32 pm »
This is my main source of anger also. The Astros and their achievements are getting crucified by bloodthirsty media speculation or by other players. Only Beltran has responded. Maybe MLB, Crane, or Luhnow instructed Astros players not to comment, but the Astros’ lack of an emphatic response is hurting them.
All those Altuve at bats that drove you nuts were really his attempt to throw the hounds off the trail. You know, part of the cover up.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #182 on: November 15, 2019, 02:40:02 pm »
Martyr complex? Not this guy. I am furious.

Agreed.  It pisses me off that the media is trying to tarnish the best moment in franchise history without concrete evidence the Astros illegally stole signs at any point during the 2017 postseason.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #183 on: November 15, 2019, 02:44:45 pm »
This media and social media response is exactly what Rosenthal and Dreilich were looking for.

They worded the article carefully,  with plenty of disclaimer type statements.   But they threw raw meat to the hounds and said "now don't spoil your dinner."

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #184 on: November 15, 2019, 02:44:57 pm »
1. I believe they used electronics illegally
2. I believe they'll be punished
3. I don't like that this violation happened
4. I don't buy for 1 second all the feigned anger/disbelief coming from unnamed MLB sources.  It's like a college football team complaining that another school is paying players. Or a politician calling someone a hypocrite.
5. Justice would demand that the schemes of other teams be revealed.   But this isn't a courtroom and the Astros could totally get hung out to dry.

I believe the Astros used resources available to everyone to establish a pitchers tendencies.
I believe they will be punished
I don't believe a violation happened
I can't believe that Fiers is an asswipe.
I can't believe that we were forced to move to the American League.  Fuck you Bud.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #185 on: November 15, 2019, 02:49:03 pm »
Oh and GM probably won't be able to make any moves due to this.  It is a witch hunt.  Read an article about the GM meetings and ours was off to the side by himself.  Pack of wild dogs.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #186 on: November 15, 2019, 02:57:07 pm »
This media and social media response is exactly what Rosenthal and Dreilich were looking for.

They worded the article carefully,  with plenty of disclaimer type statements.   But they threw raw meat to the hounds and said "now don't spoil your dinner."

Agreed.  We live in a culture where people are presumed guilty and have to prove their innocence (the opposite of how it should be).  Drellich and Rosenthal preyed on that, and the damage to the Astros’ reputation is already done, despite the fact there is no concrete evidence they illegally stole signs. 

Also, my guess is the heavy Astros’ slant in the headline and piece is mostly Drellich’s doing.  I believe Rosenthal came on a radio show and made it clear that in his estimation this is a widespread problem across MLB. 
« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 02:58:54 pm by DVauthrin »
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #187 on: November 15, 2019, 03:14:22 pm »

Also, my guess is the heavy Astros’ slant in the headline and piece is mostly Drellich’s doing.  I believe Rosenthal came on a radio show and made it clear that in his estimation this is a widespread problem across MLB.

I disagree.  Reporters don't write headlines.  That is someone else's job.  Yes, Drellich has done hatchet jobs in the past.  I believe Fiers reached out to him because of the history with him.  This isn't a hatchet job. 

The heavy Astros slant is because even though "everyone is doing it" we have a person on the record saying here is what the Astros are doing.  The fact that the allegations were then backed up by video just has fueled the flames.  The only thing that is going to reduce the heat is for 4-5 other teams' methods to be exposed.  Otherwise - it is pile on the Astros for now.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #188 on: November 15, 2019, 03:28:13 pm »
1. I believe they used electronics illegally
2. I believe they'll be punished
3. I don't like that this violation happened
4. I don't buy for 1 second all the feigned anger/disbelief coming from unnamed MLB sources.  It's like a college football team complaining that another school is paying players. Or a politician calling someone a hypocrite.
5. Justice would demand that the schemes of other teams be revealed.   But this isn't a courtroom and the Astros could totally get hung out to dry.

As of this moment, I disagree with #1. Beltran is the only Astro to comment, and he said no. Maybe it is the lawyer in me, but I do not reach conclusions until after investigations, not before. The Astros are getting crucified, all of their successes are attributed to cheating, and the bloodthirsty ones in the media are having a field day impugning the integrity of each player, not only management. I hope the team fights back hard when the time comes.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #189 on: November 15, 2019, 04:00:01 pm »
What pisses me off is the way this diminishes the Astros offensive accomplishments. And that Nightingale article implies that Darvish got a lesser contact because the Astros cheated. Fuck him.

The narrative out there is that the Astros would not have made contact in any at bat in 2017.  They would have swung and missed at every pitch thrown to them, gone 0-162 and not put a runner on base all season, but because the cheated, they won the World Series.  The whackos are out in full force.  Or should I say, the Yankee and Dodger fans are out in full force.  No one else seems to give a shit.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #190 on: November 15, 2019, 04:01:56 pm »
I disagree.  Reporters don't write headlines.  That is someone else's job.  Yes, Drellich has done hatchet jobs in the past.  I believe Fiers reached out to him because of the history with him.  This isn't a hatchet job. 

The heavy Astros slant is because even though "everyone is doing it" we have a person on the record saying here is what the Astros are doing.  The fact that the allegations were then backed up by video just has fueled the flames.  The only thing that is going to reduce the heat is for 4-5 other teams' methods to be exposed.  Otherwise - it is pile on the Astros for now.

When the Red Sox got caught red-handed doing illegal things, Rosenthal brushed it off with a "yeah, it happens...slap 'em on the wrist and move on."  He thinks the Astros should be disbanded, every citizen of Houston fined $1 billion and Hinch given a lengthy prison sentence.  Fuck him.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #191 on: November 15, 2019, 04:11:14 pm »
When the Red Sox got caught red-handed doing illegal things, Rosenthal brushed it off with a "yeah, it happens...slap 'em on the wrist and move on."  He thinks the Astros should be disbanded, every citizen of Houston fined $1 billion and Hinch given a lengthy prison sentence.  Fuck him.

He's organizing a seance to summon Hurricane Harvey to come back and finish the job.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #192 on: November 15, 2019, 04:12:45 pm »
When the Red Sox got caught red-handed doing illegal things, Rosenthal brushed it off with a "yeah, it happens...slap 'em on the wrist and move on."  He thinks the Astros should be disbanded, every citizen of Houston fined $1 billion and Hinch given a lengthy prison sentence.  Fuck him.

I don't have $1 billion.
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SoonerJim

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #193 on: November 15, 2019, 04:15:39 pm »
When the ‘51 Giants vacate for clean proven signstealing, then I’ll listen to current offers

HudsonHawk

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #194 on: November 15, 2019, 04:22:48 pm »
I don't have $1 billion.

Then I'm afraid it's scientific experiments for you.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #195 on: November 15, 2019, 04:31:47 pm »
I'm sure I've been Cabrera'd, but just in case:

https://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/article/55283/moonshot-the-astros-sign-stealing-left-a-fingerprint-in-the-audio-date/

Behind a paywall so I haven't even read it myself.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #196 on: November 15, 2019, 04:33:24 pm »
I disagree.  Reporters don't write headlines.  That is someone else's job.  Yes, Drellich has done hatchet jobs in the past.  I believe Fiers reached out to him because of the history with him.  This isn't a hatchet job. 

The heavy Astros slant is because even though "everyone is doing it" we have a person on the record saying here is what the Astros are doing.  The fact that the allegations were then backed up by video just has fueled the flames.  The only thing that is going to reduce the heat is for 4-5 other teams' methods to be exposed.  Otherwise - it is pile on the Astros for now.

You make a good point about reporters not writing their own headlines, so Drellich and Rosenthal get a pass there, and the blame should be directed at one of The Athletic’s editors instead.

However, while the story isn’t a complete hatchet job against the Astros, it was supposed to highlight the pervasive culture of illegal sign stealing across MLB.  Simply focusing on the Astros doesn’t prove that point.  I also highly doubt Mike Fiers reached out to either Drellich or Rosenthal.  More likely, one of them reached out to him because they needed a source for the piece.  Finally, where is the video that shows the presence of a camera on the field being used to steal signs?  Videos showing a banging or whistling sound are certainly not conclusive proof of electronic sign stealing. 
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #197 on: November 15, 2019, 05:13:44 pm »
Finally, where is the video that shows the presence of a camera on the field being used to steal signs?  Videos showing a banging or whistling sound are certainly not conclusive proof of electronic sign stealing. 

I've been wrestling with this point for a couple days, and had a similar initial reaction.  This is how my thought process has shaken out:

  • Fiers has always struck me as a bit of a dimwit, to put it lightly.  I think that's why he was used as the source.  Rosenthal/Drellich knew Fiers would be their useful idiot.  That being the case, I don't think Fiers is nearly smart enough to dream up this conspiracy that would just coincidentally be supported by audio/visual evidence.
  • The banging sounds, alone and without any other context, are not conclusive proof, true.  But there is a growing mountain of videos where the banging directly corresponds to the signs/pitches without any runners on base.  In the handful of videos I've watched, the catcher is hiding signs pretty well, as far as I can tell.
  • Without runners on, and with the catcher hiding signs, how can they possibly be picking up the signs without some form of tech?   The bullpen staff surely can't see the signs clearly from 400 ft away.
  • Granted, just because I can't think of any way they could do it, doesn't mean someone else couldn't.
  • As for evidence of some special camera placed in the outfield... they might not have needed an additional camera.  I'm sure there is a way they could tap into the feed from the one broadcast camera directly out in CF, somewhere between the camera and the production truck.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #198 on: November 15, 2019, 05:20:23 pm »
I've been wrestling with this point for a couple days, and had a similar initial reaction.  This is how my thought process has shaken out:

  • Without runners on, and with the catcher hiding signs, how can they possibly be picking up the signs pitches without some form of tech?   The bullpen staff surely can't see the signs clearly from 400 ft away.
  • .

The same way it's been done since forever:
Tipping.

gundy315

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #199 on: November 15, 2019, 05:23:44 pm »
The same way it's been done since forever:
Tipping.

The banging can be heard before the pitcher comes set. 

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #200 on: November 15, 2019, 05:33:17 pm »
The banging can be heard before the pitcher comes set.

I'm in the camp that believes they were using electronics.

Tipping is the argument that can be used.   And tipping doesn't always occur from the set position.  Or even from the pitcher.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #201 on: November 15, 2019, 05:35:43 pm »
The banging can be heard before the pitcher comes set.

I did this for three years!!!! Often the grip tells you. Sometimes the catcher does.

Are you saying you know the code or is Jomboy influencing you? Do you know it was coming from the Astros dugout? How can you tell? How do you know the “banger” got the sign from a camera? If so, anyone in the dugout knows. Did Beltran flat out lie?
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #202 on: November 15, 2019, 06:23:49 pm »
The Twitter stuff is entertaining,  but the interesting thing here is 2 more teams have suspicion cast their way publicly.  Un-sourced and unsubstantiated.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/mlb/brewers/2019/11/15/brewers-christian-yelich-tweets-harshly-yu-darvish-over-accusation/4206317002/

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #203 on: November 15, 2019, 06:45:24 pm »
In the video of the Gattis at bat on Jomboy, the catcher is clearly not hiding the changeup sign. I've no doubts it could be seen by either base coach or the dugout.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #204 on: November 15, 2019, 07:23:56 pm »
In the video of the Gattis at bat on Jomboy, the catcher is clearly not hiding the changeup sign. I've no doubts it could be seen by either base coach or the dugout.

There are many different videos with many different Astros batters playing against many different teams where the beating can be heard.

If they're picking up signs in the dugout, why the fuck would they have some goon beating on a trash can in the hallway? They could just do first name, last name. Or whistle Dixie, you know, normal things.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #205 on: November 15, 2019, 07:30:20 pm »
There are many different videos with many different Astros batters playing against many different teams where the beating can be heard.

If they're picking up signs in the dugout, why the fuck would they have some goon beating on a trash can in the hallway? They could just do first name, last name. Or whistle Dixie, you know, normal things.

Agree re trash can. Makes zero sense.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #206 on: November 15, 2019, 07:31:47 pm »
The Twitter stuff is entertaining,  but the interesting thing here is 2 more teams have suspicion cast their way publicly.  Un-sourced and unsubstantiated.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/mlb/brewers/2019/11/15/brewers-christian-yelich-tweets-harshly-yu-darvish-over-accusation/4206317002/

Good for Yelich. Our players remain quiet and let others make the case and set the agenda

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #207 on: November 15, 2019, 07:37:14 pm »
The Yelich video confuses me because the Bleacher Report guys don't seem to know the difference between right field and left field.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #208 on: November 15, 2019, 09:39:36 pm »
I did this for three years!!!! Often the grip tells you. Sometimes the catcher does.

Are you saying you know the code or is Jomboy influencing you? Do you know it was coming from the Astros dugout? How can you tell? How do you know the “banger” got the sign from a camera? If so, anyone in the dugout knows. Did Beltran flat out lie?

The Athletic article has a picture of the tunnel behind the dugout.  There is a disconnected data cable haphazardly strung along the wall, with a coiled end dangling directly above a big trashcan. The side of the trashcan has a big wear spot that looks like it's been beaten to shit.  Again, not conclusive, but it sure looks like it's what they say it is.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #209 on: November 15, 2019, 09:47:01 pm »
The Athletic article has a picture of the tunnel behind the dugout.  There is a disconnected data cable haphazardly strung along the wall, with a coiled end dangling directly above a big trashcan. The side of the trashcan has a big wear spot that looks like it's been beaten to shit.  Again, not conclusive, but it sure looks like it's what they say it is.

I am going to ask again-how do you know the tip came from video?
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #210 on: November 15, 2019, 11:01:11 pm »
The side of the trashcan has a big wear spot that looks like it's been beaten to shit.

Looks like he likes it medium high and in. Typical righty.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #211 on: November 15, 2019, 11:04:35 pm »
Looks like he likes it medium high and in. Typical righty.

I'm looking forward to a bobblehead of Orbit beating the hell out of a trash can. Not sure if he's a righty or a lefty.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #212 on: November 15, 2019, 11:12:59 pm »
I'm looking forward to a bobblehead of Orbit beating the hell out of a trash can. Not sure if he's a righty or a lefty.

You'd think that with all that McKinsey brainpower it would occur to someone to rotate the trash can so that the dude could hit the side that usually rests against the wall or, who knows, maybe swap it out for one in the concourse every month or something.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #213 on: November 16, 2019, 09:05:39 am »
Slate republishes a Rob Arthur article from Baseball Prospectus using audio amplitudes to map the 2017 late season games, a method which did not consistently translate into the postseason. The Sept ChiSox game is the most blatant example and seems to be exhibits A, B, and C in this case. This amplitude model can be easily refuted.

https://slate.com/culture/2019/11/astros-sign-stealing-trash-can-audio.html

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #214 on: November 16, 2019, 09:22:15 am »
I  just wish I could use the Move on nothing to see defense  and hope it does not follow all into spring training.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #215 on: November 16, 2019, 09:37:38 am »
I wonder if it was something as simple as monitoring the local AT&T camera in centerfield. The TV announcers often read signs and call the pitch when they see the catcher's signal, and that camera must stay active all game even when the broadcast team isn't using it. There may be dedicated feeds inside the stadium from that camera where someone watching could always watch the catcher. Or someone could have tapped into the feed.

I've always thought, it's interesting that the pitcher, catcher, and everyone watching at home knows which pitch is coming, because we saw the signal from the centerfield camera. And I've also thought, I wish there was someway I could tell the Astro batting what the signal was. So maybe they figured out a way to send that message to the batter. It's just a matter of timing to get him the message before the pitch is thrown. The camera to see the catcher's signal has always been there ... there was just no way to inform the batter quickly enough. Sounds like they perfected a system to do it.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #216 on: November 16, 2019, 10:05:27 am »
I wonder if it was something as simple as monitoring the local AT&T camera in centerfield. The TV announcers often read signs and call the pitch when they see the catcher's signal, and that camera must stay active all game even when the broadcast team isn't using it. There may be dedicated feeds inside the stadium from that camera where someone watching could always watch the catcher. Or someone could have tapped into the feed.

I've always thought, it's interesting that the pitcher, catcher, and everyone watching at home knows which pitch is coming, because we saw the signal from the centerfield camera. And I've also thought, I wish there was someway I could tell the Astro batting what the signal was. So maybe they figured out a way to send that message to the batter. It's just a matter of timing to get him the message before the pitch is thrown. The camera to see the catcher's signal has always been there ... there was just no way to inform the batter quickly enough. Sounds like they perfected a system to do it.

The “old as dirt” system which we used at UT in 1967 was first name fastball, last name curve. The coach got the pitch from me (coaching first base), and the coach gave the pitch to hitters who wanted to know with this system. Some did not.

The trash can signal maybe was the answer to crowd noise. That part does not violate any rule. The issue, of course, is how the Astros got the sign or the tip. If it came from any camera, that is not allowed. I am waiting for a more reliable source than Fiers to say the Astros used cameras in game to steal signs. Beltran said no.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #217 on: November 16, 2019, 10:58:07 am »
I'm in the camp that believes they were using electronics.

Go fuck yourself.  Your assumption is based on nothing other than the bullshit spewing from a bunch of anti-Astros hacks pretending to be journalists.  There's no evidence to support the accusation.  This team deserves your support; not to be thrown under the bus.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2019, 11:00:22 am by Dobro »
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #218 on: November 16, 2019, 11:00:36 am »
The trash can signal maybe was the answer to crowd noise. That part does not violate any rule. The issue, of course, is how the Astros got the sign or the tip. If it came from any camera, that is not allowed. I am waiting for a more reliable source than Fiers to say the Astros used cameras in game to steal signs. Beltran said no.

Manfred has already said the Jomboy video is indisputable proof of an illegal camera system.  That all that's left is determining the level of punishment.  There will be no investigation and no "reliable sources".  The Yankees are demanding the Astros head on a platter, and MLB has no choice but to deliver it.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #219 on: November 16, 2019, 11:10:40 am »
I am waiting for a more reliable source than Fiers to say the Astros used cameras in game to steal signs. Beltran said no.
Who between Fiers and Beltran is lying and what is their motivation? Fiers really had nothing to gain by coming forward. I don't buy that he did it because it was weighing so damn heavily on his heart he had to say something--you know, for the young guys starting out trying to make a big league roster who got fucked by the sign stealing. Beltran has something to lose, I guess. I really want to hear what Cora is going to say.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #220 on: November 16, 2019, 11:25:22 am »
Who between Fiers and Beltran is lying and what is their motivation? Fiers really had nothing to gain by coming forward. I don't buy that he did it because it was weighing so damn heavily on his heart he had to say something--you know, for the young guys starting out trying to make a big league roster who got fucked by the sign stealing. Beltran has something to lose, I guess. I really want to hear what Cora is going to say.

Fiers has everything to gain.  His goal in life is to stick it to the Astros.  He's achieved that now.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #221 on: November 16, 2019, 11:39:05 am »
Fiers has everything to gain.  His goal in life is to stick it to the Astros.  He's achieved that now.
So lets say his motivation is pure spitefulness. Spiteful petty assholes aren't normally held up as paragons of truth and virtue. I also tend to think Fiers, being a non hitter, might be confused about how the Astros went about hitting. I really want to believe Beltran, though.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #222 on: November 16, 2019, 12:02:06 pm »
I want to believe Beltran too.  My disappointment comes from the fact that MLB is not interested in the truth and will not thoroughly investigate.  They flat out  stated yesterday the goal now is to punish the Astros as quickly as possible, and nothing is off the table, including stripping the World Series title and declaring the Yankees AL champions in 2017 AND 2019.  There is talk of banning Hinch and Luhnow for life, and making the players return their 2017 rings.  The latter is the most laughable to me.  But there is no MLB without the New York Yankees, so they will get to dictate this whole affair.  That's just the reality. 
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #223 on: November 16, 2019, 12:03:38 pm »
Go fuck yourself. 

Unless my sarcasm meter is seriously broken (has been before), this seems a bit harsh.  Maybe you should read your signature. 

Edit:  And for the record (if anyone cares), I agree with Jim.  I'll reserve judgement until the investigation is over.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2019, 12:06:55 pm by Tom Servo »

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #224 on: November 16, 2019, 12:09:18 pm »
They flat out  stated yesterday the goal now is to punish the Astros as quickly as possible, and nothing is off the table, including stripping the World Series title and declaring the Yankees AL champions in 2017 AND 2019.

Where was this stated?  I have been trying to stay away from most of it, as I wanted to just wait for the official investigation to be over, but if this is the case, then shit...

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #225 on: November 16, 2019, 12:12:44 pm »
I want to believe Beltran too.  My disappointment comes from the fact that MLB is not interested in the truth and will not thoroughly investigate.  They flat out  stated yesterday the goal now is to punish the Astros as quickly as possible, and nothing is off the table, including stripping the World Series title and declaring the Yankees AL champions in 2017 AND 2019.  There is talk of banning Hinch and Luhnow for life, and making the players return their 2017 rings.  The latter is the most laughable to me.  But there is no MLB without the New York Yankees, so they will get to dictate this whole affair.  That's just the reality.

Even one of those "punishments" would do it for me as a fan of the game at this level. I would be done. I probably should be done now but I want to believe the best.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #226 on: November 16, 2019, 12:15:45 pm »
Where was this stated?  I have been trying to stay away from most of it, as I wanted to just wait for the official investigation to be over, but if this is the case, then shit...

It's a fever dream of some loudmouthed jackoff on WFAN.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #227 on: November 16, 2019, 12:18:45 pm »
It's a fever dream of some loudmouthed jackoff on WFAN.

That sounds about right.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #228 on: November 16, 2019, 12:19:10 pm »
Where was this stated?  I have been trying to stay away from most of it, as I wanted to just wait for the official investigation to be over, but if this is the case, then shit...

Read it on more than one source.  Don't have one handy.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #229 on: November 16, 2019, 12:19:28 pm »
That sounds about right.

It was a direct quote from Rob Manfred.  Here was part of it:

“Fans are always the first thing in the front of our minds. And when we discipline in a situation like this, we discipline with a view towards it having a prophylactic effect on the behavior going forward, so that we maintain the trust of our fans.”

And in another bit of ridiculous witch hunting, I read somewhere that the punishment for Luhnow is likely to be worse because "he was at the center of a tech-related controversy involving computer hacking by a former staffer."  Unbelievable.  That's like saying if a guy kills his wife, she's a suspect because she was in a sexual relationship with a known killer.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2019, 12:26:18 pm by HudsonHawk »
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #230 on: November 16, 2019, 12:21:22 pm »
The Athletic article has a picture of the tunnel behind the dugout.  There is a disconnected data cable haphazardly strung along the wall, with a coiled end dangling directly above a big trashcan. The side of the trashcan has a big wear spot that looks like it's been beaten to shit.  Again, not conclusive, but it sure looks like it's what they say it is.

I don't think that photo is intended to show incriminating evidence, just the alleged location of the monitor.

The presence of that cable is meaningless.  There are probably at least 100 unused loops of cable like that throughout the stadium, and it's impossible to know what it was used for.

Re: the trash can: large trash cans like that get beaten to shit in any commercial setting every day.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #231 on: November 16, 2019, 12:28:20 pm »
This is what I mean by martyr complex. Literally none of what is being described is actually happening, despite many of you really, really wishing it would.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/mlb-commissioner-on-astros-scandal-we-will-find-out-how-far-up-in-the-organization-it-went-131204081.html

Quote
So, what might a potential punishment even look like? On the extreme end, some fans have wondered whether the league would make the Astros vacate their 2017 title, akin to how the NCAA has punished college athletic programs like Louisville last year. Or MLB could slap an asterisk on the Astros’ 2017 title in all the record books. It could suspend or even permanently ban executives like GM Jeff Luhnow, who has been at the center of tech-related baseball scandals before. On the lower end of the spectrum, it could fine the team or the individuals involved.

"Some fans have wondered" is quite some distance from "Commissioner Manfred said."
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #232 on: November 16, 2019, 12:30:16 pm »
This is what I mean by martyr complex. Literally none of what is being described is actually happening, despite many of you really, really wishing it would.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/mlb-commissioner-on-astros-scandal-we-will-find-out-how-far-up-in-the-organization-it-went-131204081.html

"Some fans have wondered" is quite some distance from "Commissioner Manfred said."

Some people are saying all Astros fans will be deported.


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Re: More controversy
« Reply #233 on: November 16, 2019, 12:31:18 pm »
This is what I mean by martyr complex. Literally none of what is being described is actually happening, despite many of you really, really wishing it would.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/mlb-commissioner-on-astros-scandal-we-will-find-out-how-far-up-in-the-organization-it-went-131204081.html

"Some fans have wondered" is quite some distance from "Commissioner Manfred said."

That's the closest I've found too.  Manfred in the same article:

Quote
Obviously, following the rules is crucial to the competition on the field; any time there’s this sort of allegation, we take it very seriously,” Manfred told Yahoo Finance in an exclusive interview at the Paley International Council Summit in New York on Thursday. “We’re in the midst of gathering the facts. We want to make sure we understand everything that went on, who was involved, how far up in the organization it went. And at that point in time, we’ll make a decision as to what, if any, discipline is appropriate.

I think Hudson is having a hard time distinguishing his hyperbole from what's actually been reported.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #234 on: November 16, 2019, 12:37:46 pm »
That's the closest I've found too.  Manfred in the same article:

I think Hudson is having a hard time distinguishing his hyperbole from what's actually been reported.

That's not the article I read, but I'm happy to be completely off base here.  I'm not hoping the Astros get disbanded, despite what some of you think.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #235 on: November 16, 2019, 12:41:53 pm »
That's not the article I read, but I'm happy to be completely off base here.  I'm not hoping the Astros get disbanded, despite what some of you think.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #236 on: November 16, 2019, 12:53:52 pm »
Manfred has already said the Jomboy video is indisputable proof of an illegal camera system.  That all that's left is determining the level of punishment.  There will be no investigation and no "reliable sources".  The Yankees are demanding the Astros head on a platter, and MLB has no choice but to deliver it.

Seriously? That is bullshit. That “breakdown” proved nothing about a camera.

ETA: I have not read this anywhere and find it difficult he (or anyone) would say it with an investigation in progress.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2019, 01:08:22 pm by JimR »
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #237 on: November 16, 2019, 12:54:15 pm »
Worse: Crane will be forced to sell to Loria


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Re: More controversy
« Reply #238 on: November 16, 2019, 12:57:12 pm »
Worse: Crane will be forced to sell to Loria


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Re: More controversy
« Reply #239 on: November 16, 2019, 01:10:05 pm »
Go fuck yourself.  Your assumption is based on nothing other than the bullshit spewing from a bunch of anti-Astros hacks pretending to be journalists.  There's no evidence to support the accusation.  This team deserves your support; not to be thrown under the bus.

The first sentence is way too harsh, but I agree with the rest of it.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #240 on: November 16, 2019, 01:22:50 pm »
Go fuck yourself.  Your assumption is based on nothing other than the bullshit spewing from a bunch of anti-Astros hacks pretending to be journalists.  There's no evidence to support the accusation.  This team deserves your support; not to be thrown under the bus.

I'll pass on your kind offer.

And keep in mind I'm still driving around North Texas with my Astros magnet on the back of my vehicle,  my Astros hat,  and an Astros sticker on my phone.  All this in full view and earshot of emboldened Ranger fans.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #241 on: November 16, 2019, 01:32:40 pm »
I'll just add that I believe every contender has a system in place to steal signs electronically.

And when the vice principal called to say that our youngest boy was in the office because he turned the lights off in the bathroom and freaked out his fellow first graders, my response wasn't "you can't prove anything,  you fascist!"  And I didn't turn him out for the coyotes either.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #242 on: November 16, 2019, 01:48:40 pm »
That's a hell of a good prank for a first grader. I like the cut of this little guy's jib, I like where he's headed.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #243 on: November 16, 2019, 02:05:11 pm »
And when the vice principal called to say that our youngest boy was in the office because he turned the lights off in the bathroom and freaked out his fellow first graders, my response wasn't "you can't prove anything,  you fascist!"  And I didn't turn him out for the coyotes either.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #244 on: November 16, 2019, 04:01:31 pm »
I'll just add that I believe every contender has a system in place to steal signs electronically.

And when the vice principal called to say that our youngest boy was in the office because he turned the lights off in the bathroom and freaked out his fellow first graders, my response wasn't "you can't prove anything,  you fascist!"  And I didn't turn him out for the coyotes either.

Well done.

It seems like they cheated.  I wish they hadn't, or if everyone was doing it that the story was that everyone was doing it.  If that banging wasn't the result of using video then why hasn't Hinch or someone explained it?  I realize I'm not a lawyer.  This isn't court.  If this was all happening to any other team I wouldn't think twice about believing it.  Maybe I'm naive.  I'll go fuck myself.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #245 on: November 16, 2019, 07:21:17 pm »
Dreilich and Rosenthal piling on:

https://theathletic.com/1374774/2019/11/16/astros-executive-asked-scouts-for-help-stealing-signs-and-suggested-using-cameras-email-shows/

The tag of the story carries more weight than the substance of the story. Hatchets flying.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #246 on: November 16, 2019, 07:28:51 pm »
Dreilich and Rosenthal piling on:

https://theathletic.com/1374774/2019/11/16/astros-executive-asked-scouts-for-help-stealing-signs-and-suggested-using-cameras-email-shows/

The tag of the story carries more weight than the substance of the story. Hatchets flying.

I'm pretty pessimistic about the Astros' (total) innocence in all of this, but I'm going to call bullshit here. Advance scouts watching the opposition and trying to get a database of signs is totally normal. Binoculars and cameras are perfectly legal for any spectator. The only real problem is if the scouts are at an Astros game and relaying stolen signs in real time by phone or hand/voice signals.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #247 on: November 16, 2019, 07:54:06 pm »
I'm pretty pessimistic about the Astros' (total) innocence in all of this, but I'm going to call bullshit here. Advance scouts watching the opposition and trying to get a database of signs is totally normal. Binoculars and cameras are perfectly legal for any spectator. The only real problem is if the scouts are at an Astros game and relaying stolen signs in real time by phone or hand/voice signals.

I think you're missing the larger point: the Yankees are unhappy. The Astros are going to pay.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #248 on: November 16, 2019, 09:42:45 pm »
With respect to this last piece, if true, and it probably is since the Athletic seems to have been forwarded tons of emails and Slack channel threads from someone (I wonder who) (Mike Elias coughcough), the thing that strikes me is the naivete of the person making the ask.

I mean, come on, dude, have you never seen scouts at work at a game? Don't you know they all sit more or less in the same place and they all know each other and one or two of them MIGHT notice if someone was fucking training a camera on the opposing team's dugout? God damn these McKinsey guys are lost in the real world.

Quote
Scouts discussed sign stealing with the executive outside of email as well, on phone calls and in a group Slack channel. Multiple Astros scouts said they were appalled by the possibility they would be asked to use a camera — and said that some scouts indeed voiced as much to management. Another scout noted a generally confounded feeling amongst the group by the overall request.

This whole thing is bad and it's getting worse. And it will continue to get worse, I think.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #249 on: November 16, 2019, 10:06:24 pm »
The messages described violations of norms. From what I can tell, nothing asked from the scouts was technically illegal. But the messages could be explained as indication of intent, that they showed the Astros were willing to push the envelope too far...

If the story told so far is true, it's really odd that the scouts pushed back against behavior that was an order of magnitude less severe than real time electronic spying, but the players didn't complain about what they were asked to do (or accept).
« Last Edit: November 16, 2019, 11:07:29 pm by The Spleen »
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #250 on: November 17, 2019, 04:06:31 am »
All of this is so much BS. There’s so much talent on this team. I’m not even going to read anymore about it. Take a draft pick... whatever....

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #251 on: November 17, 2019, 08:52:11 am »
I think part of this is that MLB is concerned about cheating/sign stealing and knows it is rampant. They need a scapegoat. Houston is a convenient foil.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #252 on: November 17, 2019, 09:34:52 am »
The messages described violations of norms. From what I can tell, nothing asked from the scouts was technically illegal. But the messages could be explained as indication of intent, that they showed the Astros were willing to push the envelope too far...

If the story told so far is true, it's really odd that the scouts pushed back against behavior that was an order of magnitude less severe than real time electronic spying, but the players didn't complain about what they were asked to do (or accept).

This is nonsense. What do you think scouts do? Much of their job when scouting major league teams is to pick up details which help their team win. To do it with cameras instead of writing a report is a guarantee of accuracy. Scouts sit behind home plate or in a press box. Is someone saying they can see the catcher’s signs from their seats?
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #253 on: November 17, 2019, 09:58:05 am »
This is nonsense. What do you think scouts do? Much of their job when scouting major league teams is to pick up details which help their team win. To do it with cameras instead of writing a report is a guarantee of accuracy. Scouts sit behind home plate or in a press box. Is someone saying they can see the catcher’s signs from their seats?

Headline on CBS Sports was "Astros sent email asking scouts to steal signs".  Details schmetails.

Rosenthal and Dreilich know what they're doing.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #254 on: November 17, 2019, 11:06:53 am »
If all of these reports are true, it sounds like the Astros were gearing up for war late in the season. All of these events... experimenting with electronic spying, ordering hyper-vigilance from the scouts... were in August and September. This was after the Red Sox and Yankees... two likely postseason opponents... were caught spying. Were they acting on the assumption that they'd be spied on in the playoffs and had to retaliate? Or had they been running a phone-based scheme similar to that of the Red Sox (now impossible) and were trying to figure out other ways to gain advantage? It's noteworthy that the Yankees caught the Red Sox by photographing their dugout, and the Astros front office was asking for something similar in those e-mails.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #255 on: November 17, 2019, 11:10:55 am »
If all of these reports are true, it sounds like the Astros were gearing up for war late in the season. All of these events... experimenting with electronic spying, ordering hyper-vigilance from the scouts... were in August and September. This was after the Red Sox and Yankees... two likely postseason opponents... were caught spying. Were they acting on the assumption that they'd be spied on in the playoffs and had to retaliate? Or had they been running a phone-based scheme similar to that of the Red Sox (now impossible) and were trying to figure out other ways to gain advantage? It's noteworthy that the Yankees caught the Red Sox by photographing their dugout, and the Astros front office was asking for something similar in those e-mails.

Oh, please. WTF do you think scouts do if they only scout major league teams?
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #256 on: November 17, 2019, 11:12:10 am »
The scouts were directed to film signs being given from the from the dugout, not try to intercept the catcher's signs.

It's puzzling to me that there seems to be little appetite to read the articles yet an abundance of enthusiasm to complain about the details.

I have no idea whether a team's filming bench signs, especially during a game that their team is not involved in, is a violation of league rules. Again, this effort was meant to try to decipher bench signs and decidedly not a scheme to relay improperly gained information in real time to players. All I know is that according to the article the scouts considered it wholly inappropriate and wanted no part of it.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #257 on: November 17, 2019, 11:23:00 am »
Oh, please. WTF do you think scouts do if they only scout major league teams?

The orders to the scouts are definitely not the problem. None of what they were asked to do was technically illegal, although they thought cameras broke 'unwritten rules' (and being asked to use them was likely taken as an insult to their ability/skills). Stealing signs, whether they're given on the field or in the dugout, is most definitely part of a scout's job.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #258 on: November 17, 2019, 11:28:28 am »
Our championship window extends probably through 2022, so losing draft picks would be the minimum penalty, unless they want suspensions of front office or managerial personnel. That would produce an immediate negative impact. Examples were made of selected anabolic steroid cases, but only after the players’ careers had ended

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #259 on: November 17, 2019, 05:45:43 pm »
I am going to ask again-how do you know the tip came from video?

I don't, technically.  That big fucking monitor sure looks suspicious, though.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #260 on: November 17, 2019, 06:44:47 pm »
This twitter thread has pictures of the video station, taken from the World Series documentary. Some of the pictures show two chairs, food and drink containers and a bunch of sunflower shells, suggesting that people were working there during the game. I'm trying to figure out why somebody would be watching game video from that spot:

-Watching and taking notes for review and study after the game? That could be done from the clubhouse.
-Using a phone or radio to relay signs to somebody in the dugout or bullpen who alerts hitters with hand signals? That also could be done from the clubhouse. Phones in the dugout/bullpen would also be a problem after Boston was caught spying.
-Using the trashcan drum to relay signs to hitters, as was allegedly done in regular season games? Postseason crowd noise would make that very hard if not impossible. The Baseball Prospectus article where they studied postseason audio and could not find the same pattern from the regular season seems to confirm this.

So what does that leave?

-Did somebody watching video relay voice or hand signals to somebody at the tunnel entrance who passed on voice or hand signals to the batters? Very bad.
-Did they watch the video, take notes about the opposition and share their observations with the dugout between innings? (They'd want to be closer than the clubhouse to do this and phones would be a problem.) Not as bad as relaying a live spy feed to the hitters, but probably still over the line.
-Did they watch their own players for mechanical issues, pitch tipping and poorly concealed signs and give the dugout updates between innings?

Anyone have some other ideas?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 06:54:51 pm by The Spleen »
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #261 on: November 17, 2019, 07:24:00 pm »
Aren't there MLB observers in the dugout in the postseason?

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #262 on: November 17, 2019, 08:10:47 pm »
This twitter thread has pictures of the video station, taken from the World Series documentary. Some of the pictures show two chairs, food and drink containers and a bunch of sunflower shells, suggesting that people were working there during the game. I'm trying to figure out why somebody would be watching game video from that spot:

-Watching and taking notes for review and study after the game? That could be done from the clubhouse.
-Using a phone or radio to relay signs to somebody in the dugout or bullpen who alerts hitters with hand signals? That also could be done from the clubhouse. Phones in the dugout/bullpen would also be a problem after Boston was caught spying.
-Using the trashcan drum to relay signs to hitters, as was allegedly done in regular season games? Postseason crowd noise would make that very hard if not impossible. The Baseball Prospectus article where they studied postseason audio and could not find the same pattern from the regular season seems to confirm this.

So what does that leave?

-Did somebody watching video relay voice or hand signals to somebody at the tunnel entrance who passed on voice or hand signals to the batters? Very bad.
-Did they watch the video, take notes about the opposition and share their observations with the dugout between innings? (They'd want to be closer than the clubhouse to do this and phones would be a problem.) Not as bad as relaying a live spy feed to the hitters, but probably still over the line.
-Did they watch their own players for mechanical issues, pitch tipping and poorly concealed signs and give the dugout updates between innings?

Anyone have some other ideas?

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #263 on: November 17, 2019, 08:13:06 pm »
Hell no, Sherlock. You are on a roll.

I'm not going to commit to any of those answers. At this point I have no idea. So much of this makes no fucking sense, even if you're assuming the worst.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #264 on: November 17, 2019, 08:51:14 pm »
I'm not going to commit to any of those answers. At this point I have no idea. So much of this makes no fucking sense, even if you're assuming the worst.

I'm assuming that no one outside of the Astros and their fans care about such details as proof.

Everyone has made up their minds and using this as an excuse to dismiss every win since 2017.

And since MLB's burden of proof is light years less than a court of law's, the team will take it in the shorts.


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Re: More controversy
« Reply #265 on: November 17, 2019, 09:02:52 pm »
There's someone on Twitter arguing vociferously that the person in question or at least the station in question pertains to the MLB replay system.

As is the new custom here I will refrain from linking to it.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #266 on: November 17, 2019, 09:46:53 pm »
There's someone on Twitter arguing vociferously that the person in question or at least the station in question pertains to the MLB replay system.

That is plenty plausible.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #267 on: November 17, 2019, 09:58:02 pm »
That is plenty plausible.

That setup looks pretty ghetto for official MLB business or a sinister high-tech cheating syndicate.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #268 on: November 17, 2019, 11:13:51 pm »
1. If MLB concludes (whether with or without clear and convincing evidence) that cheating in the form of in-game electronic sign-stealing occurred, it would be surprising if Hinch and Luhnow did not receive suspensions, and that seems appropriate. If Cora and Beltran are found to have been heavily involved in designing and implementing the system, would they be suspended (or perhaps merely fined) as well even though they now belong to other organizations?

2. Although "other people do it" is not an excuse for wrongdoing, an investigation that does not address violations league-wide would be hollow. It would be like investigating only the Cardinals and the Cubs for steroids during the late '90s (pre-Bonds) because McGwire and Sosa were the two biggest suspects. Rosenthal has noted the widespread abuses throughout MLB, and Manfred has indicated that the investigation will not focus solely on Houston.

3. The conflation of illegal activity with permissible behavior, such as having scouts take video or pictures of dugout signals in games in which the team is not involved, undermines the credibility of the reporting. As early as ALDS Game 5 people claimed the Astros taking advantage of Tyler Glasnow tipping his pitches was controversial, even though it was perfectly legal. In a world driven by clickbait, blurring the lines between actual wrongdoing and axe-grinding is too common.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 11:27:05 pm by Arky Vaughan »

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #269 on: November 17, 2019, 11:15:38 pm »
In-game electronic sign-stealing creates an acronym that suits a lot of the speculation well: IGESS (I guess).

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #270 on: November 18, 2019, 03:41:14 am »
That setup looks pretty ghetto for official MLB business or a sinister high-tech cheating syndicate.

No, no, no...the Astros are Danny Ocean at planning a crime and the Snoats brothers at executing it.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #271 on: November 18, 2019, 04:24:16 am »
1. If MLB concludes (whether with or without clear and convincing evidence) that cheating in the form of in-game electronic sign-stealing occurred, it would be surprising if Hinch and Luhnow did not receive suspensions, and that seems appropriate. If Cora and Beltran are found to have been heavily involved in designing and implementing the system, would they be suspended (or perhaps merely fined) as well even though they now belong to other organizations?

The timing aspect will be interesting. Both the Yankees and Red Sox were caught doing this exact thing *after* this all allegedly occurred with the Astros. They were given a small fine.  So now, because it wasn’t uncovered until years later, the Astros should be made examples of?


Quote
2. Although "other people do it" is not an excuse for wrongdoing, an investigation that does not address violations league-wide would be hollow. It would be like investigating only the Cardinals and the Cubs for steroids during the late '90s (pre-Bonds) because McGwire and Sosa were the two biggest suspects. Rosenthal has noted the widespread abuses throughout MLB, and Manfred has indicated that the investigation will not focus solely on Houston.

Rosenthal is a gutless hack. When his beloved Red Sox got busted in the same season, he dismissed it with a “boys will be boys...it’s been going on forever...slap their wrists and move on...not a huge deal.”  Now, as co-author of the hit piece, the Astros are like the Black Sox and Pete Rose had a baby with Satan himself. Fuck Rosenthal and his faux outrage.


Quote
3. The conflation of illegal activity with permissible behavior, such as having scouts take video or pictures of dugout signals in games in which the team is not involved, undermines the credibility of the reporting. As early as ALDS Game 5 people claimed the Astros taking advantage of Tyler Glasnow tipping his pitches was controversial, even though it was perfectly legal. In a world driven by clickbait, blurring the lines between actual wrongdoing and axe-grinding is too common.

Make no mistake, this has nothing to do with stealing signs and everything to do with knocking the Yankees out three of the last five seasons. The Yankees are pissed and are driving this train. They found a willing mouthpiece in reporters who vowed revenge for the Taubman incident. They had all of this for years and were content to let it go, but then Taubman got tuned up and went after one of their own.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #272 on: November 18, 2019, 07:24:56 am »
I don't, technically.  That big fucking monitor sure looks suspicious, though.
Every club has a monitor like that with two people sitting at it (one a MLB rep) to watch replays to help decide if a review request is needed. It's not suspicious, it's normal. Notice the two chairs?
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #273 on: November 18, 2019, 08:07:54 am »
Every club has a monitor like that with two people sitting at it (one a MLB rep) to watch replays to help decide if a review request is needed. It's not suspicious, it's normal. Notice the two chairs?

Facts, facts, facts. Thanks for this.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #274 on: November 18, 2019, 08:29:40 am »
The timing aspect will be interesting. Both the Yankees and Red Sox were caught doing this exact thing *after* this all allegedly occurred with the Astros. They were given a small fine.  So now, because it wasn’t uncovered until years later, the Astros should be made examples of?


Rosenthal is a gutless hack. When his beloved Red Sox got busted in the same season, he dismissed it with a “boys will be boys...it’s been going on forever...slap their wrists and move on...not a huge deal.”  Now, as co-author of the hit piece, the Astros are like the Black Sox and Pete Rose had a baby with Satan himself. Fuck Rosenthal and his faux outrage.


Make no mistake, this has nothing to do with stealing signs and everything to do with knocking the Yankees out three of the last five seasons. The Yankees are pissed and are driving this train. They found a willing mouthpiece in reporters who vowed revenge for the Taubman incident. They had all of this for years and were content to let it go, but then Taubman got tuned up and went after one of their own.

Excellent post. The outrage and feeding frenzy against the Astros is mind-boggling. Fuck Taubman.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #275 on: November 18, 2019, 08:40:58 am »
Now, as co-author of the hit piece, the Astros are like the Black Sox and Pete Rose had a baby with Satan himself.

So this prompted me to put these two together using one of those "what would my baby look like?" sites. The result looks like the embodiment of evil indeed. (I can't get the result to link. Which is for the best.)

Shoeless Joe

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« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 08:46:02 am by Arky Vaughan »

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #276 on: November 18, 2019, 08:54:25 am »
Every club has a monitor like that with two people sitting at it (one a MLB rep) to watch replays to help decide if a review request is needed. It's not suspicious, it's normal. Notice the two chairs?
Is that setup just used in the postseason? That is near where the drummer was supposedly sending signals in the regular season games, which would have been... awkward.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #277 on: November 18, 2019, 09:11:51 am »
We should Work out Kaepernick and sign him to a contract, and earn some good will. It worked for Tebow and the Mets, and it would be a tremendous publicity boost.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #278 on: November 18, 2019, 10:03:30 am »
Every club has a monitor like that with two people sitting at it (one a MLB rep) to watch replays to help decide if a review request is needed. It's not suspicious, it's normal. Notice the two chairs?

Bingo.  Every time there's a close play, you see the manager holding up his hand and looking down the tunnel before indicating whether they want a review or not. 
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #279 on: November 18, 2019, 10:29:28 am »
I still can't get a grip on the whole drumming thing. Mysterious loud bangs every time your pitcher comes set? A different sequence for each kind of pitch? That can be clearly heard by everyone on the infield, including the umpires? Opponents should have caught on to this almost instantly, and there were any number of ways it could have been dealt with. Point it out to the umpires (who somehow didn't notice). Use complex signs at all times, even with the bases empty. Arrange to have the catcher set up outside with a changeup sign down while the pitcher aims a fastball at the batter's ribs. Tip off MLB or the press and tell them to review the game film. As described in the article, this wasn't a plan to cheat. It was a plan to cheat and get caught. But there is pretty clear video evidence that something happened. Absolutely none of this makes sense, no matter whether you're starting with the assumption that the Astros are saints or the assumption that Luhnow is literally Hitler.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #280 on: November 18, 2019, 10:32:41 am »
Advancement in wireless connectivity and camera technology is such that It would be pretty easy to be able to set up a tiny discretely concealed spy cam that could be monitored on a tablet or phone. That is how any savvy up-to-date tech would set it up. And it would be virtually non-detectable and fool proof. Hell, you could signal the batter with a mild electric shock or vibration of a bracelet or neck chain or behind some tape or in a sock. No need to fuck with an audible signal.  It is silly that such a forward thinking team would choose to tap into the network feed from the CF cam and watch it in the tunnel while sitting two feet from a 36 inch monitor. In fact the same monitor they used to watch replays on.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #281 on: November 18, 2019, 10:40:09 am »
Advancement in wireless connectivity and camera technology is such that It would be pretty easy to be able to set up a tiny discretely concealed spy cam that could be monitored on a tablet or phone. That is how any savvy up-to-date tech would set it up. And it would be virtually non-detectable and fool proof. Hell, you could signal the batter with a mild electric shock or vibration of a bracelet or neck chain or behind some tape or in a sock. No need to fuck with an audible signal.  It is silly that such a forward thinking team would choose to tap into the network feed from the CF cam and watch it in the tunnel while sitting two feet from a 36 inch monitor. In fact the same monitor they used to watch replays on.

"Mission Control" for such a scheme didn't even have to be in the ballpark. It could have been run out of a hotel room.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #282 on: November 18, 2019, 11:02:20 am »
Use complex signs at all times, even with the bases empty.

I don't understand how this isn't the norm.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #283 on: November 18, 2019, 11:27:52 am »
I still can't get a grip on the whole drumming thing. Mysterious loud bangs every time your pitcher comes set? A different sequence for each kind of pitch? That can be clearly heard by everyone on the infield, including the umpires? Opponents should have caught on to this almost instantly, and there were any number of ways it could have been dealt with. Point it out to the umpires (who somehow didn't notice). Use complex signs at all times, even with the bases empty. Arrange to have the catcher set up outside with a changeup sign down while the pitcher aims a fastball at the batter's ribs. Tip off MLB or the press and tell them to review the game film. As described in the article, this wasn't a plan to cheat. It was a plan to cheat and get caught. But there is pretty clear video evidence that something happened. Absolutely none of this makes sense, no matter whether you're starting with the assumption that the Astros are saints or the assumption that Luhnow is literally Hitler.

Umpires are sort of a missing opinion right now. Anything heard by the hitter or opposing team was heard by at least four umpires. Have any weighed in on this?
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #284 on: November 18, 2019, 11:30:34 am »
Umpires are sort of a missing opinion right now. Anything heard by the hitter or opposing team was heard by at least four umpires. Have any weighed in on this?

Blind AND deaf?  Now we're just stretching credulity.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #285 on: November 18, 2019, 12:20:52 pm »
Just watched someone named Chris Russo filet the Astros on his MLB telecast, wanting fines, suspensions, and draft picks, all by Thursday. For good measure, his followup commemorated Vera Clemente's passing over the weekend, discussing Roberto's death when he sent aid after the hurricane. You know, the one which struck on New Year's Eve. The nation wants a hide, it appears.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #286 on: November 18, 2019, 12:30:51 pm »
Just watched someone named Chris Russo

Thoughts and prayers.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #287 on: November 18, 2019, 01:34:37 pm »
Thoughts and prayers.

He seemed like a “Cheers” extra, who ‘d make Cliff Clavin a Rhodes Scholar by comparison

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #288 on: November 18, 2019, 01:55:15 pm »
He seemed like a “Cheers” extra, who ‘d make Cliff Clavin a Rhodes Scholar by comparison

I read something on the clickbait site 12up.com by Russo the other day. The article ended this way:

"In the last couple of years, their first baseman made a racist gesture in the World Series but had his suspension pushed back to the next year. They've been accused of stealing signs. They traded for a player accused of domestic violence, and their general manager later rubbed that in the faces of female reporters."

Pretty clueless. Also a defamation risk.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 01:57:46 pm by Arky Vaughan »

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #289 on: November 18, 2019, 01:58:16 pm »
I read something on the clickbait site 12up.com by Russo the other day. The article ended this way:

"In the last couple of years, their first baseman made a racist gesture in the World Series but had his suspension pushed back to the next year. They've been accused of stealing signs. They traded for a player accused of domestic violence, and their general manager later rubbed that in the faces of female reporters."

Pretty clueless. Also a defamation risk.

No animus there. Fuck him.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #290 on: November 18, 2019, 01:59:13 pm »
He forgot to mention Caminiti used steroids and Mike Scott scuffed the ball.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #291 on: November 18, 2019, 02:02:31 pm »
Actually, the Chris Russo I quoted is an intern, so he's not the same guy on MLB Network. Just a coincidence that two people sharing the same name could be such fools.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #292 on: November 18, 2019, 02:03:51 pm »
He forgot to mention Caminiti used steroids and Mike Scott scuffed the ball.

and Cedeno, oh my.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #293 on: November 18, 2019, 02:07:43 pm »
Advancement in wireless connectivity and camera technology is such that It would be pretty easy to be able to set up a tiny discretely concealed spy cam that could be monitored on a tablet or phone. That is how any savvy up-to-date tech would set it up. And it would be virtually non-detectable and fool proof. Hell, you could signal the batter with a mild electric shock or vibration of a bracelet or neck chain or behind some tape or in a sock. No need to fuck with an audible signal.  It is silly that such a forward thinking team would choose to tap into the network feed from the CF cam and watch it in the tunnel while sitting two feet from a 36 inch monitor. In fact the same monitor they used to watch replays on.

You're ahead of the curve. NY Post:In recent days I have had scouts and executives talk to me about a variety of methods they think have been or could be employed, such as a realistic-looking electronic bandage placed on a player’s body that buzzes in real time to signal what is coming — one buzz for a fastball, for example — if the surveillance determines what type of pitching is coming. One person I spoke to has ties to the Astros and said he already had spoken to MLB’s investigators.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #294 on: November 18, 2019, 02:08:22 pm »
He forgot to mention Caminiti used steroids and Mike Scott scuffed the ball.

And Julia cheated on Orbit with the Phillie Phanatic.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #295 on: November 18, 2019, 02:10:37 pm »
Actually, the Chris Russo I quoted is an intern, so he's not the same guy on MLB Network. Just a coincidence that two people sharing the same name could be such fools.

You’re telling me this is an “adult” sensibility because he has an MLB network gig? This should be fought until hell freezes over.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #296 on: November 18, 2019, 02:18:00 pm »
and Cedeno, oh my.

The mob's collective head would explode.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #297 on: November 18, 2019, 03:45:09 pm »
If the Astros do not fight this with every ounce of their being, I will be so disappointed. This piling on with speculation on speculation is ridiculous.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #298 on: November 18, 2019, 03:57:22 pm »
If the Astros do not fight this with every ounce of their being, I will be so disappointed. This piling on with speculation on speculation is ridiculous.

Excepting 19th century gambling mischief, this potentially takes second place to the BlackSox as a team-tainted ws victory. It must be fought at all levels. Were the title to be vacated or Hinch suspended, at least go down fighting

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #299 on: November 18, 2019, 04:02:08 pm »
They didn't kill nobody. They didn't rape nobody. I don't see what the big deal is.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #300 on: November 18, 2019, 04:10:58 pm »
They didn't kill nobody. They didn't rape nobody. I don't see what the big deal is.

This is at least as bad as when the Astros threw the 1919 Series.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #301 on: November 18, 2019, 04:11:01 pm »
Excepting 19th century gambling mischief, this potentially takes second place to the BlackSox as a team-tainted ws victory. It must be fought at all levels. Were the title to be vacated or Hinch suspended, at least go down fighting

They will go full scorched earth if those are the stakes.

Both the Yankees and the Red Sox were stealing signs,  as MLB learned, hence the rule changes *after* 2017.

Nuance,  even factual detail, is lost by the clamoring masses.




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Re: More controversy
« Reply #302 on: November 18, 2019, 04:43:35 pm »
Here are some actual home/away stats.

If you don't have Twitter I'm sure it'll be on your next compuserve disk.

https://twitter.com/jasoncollette/status/1196051650147950592?s=19
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 05:11:18 pm by Astros Fan in Big D »

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #303 on: November 18, 2019, 05:02:03 pm »
Were the title to be vacated...

If the Astros are guilty, MLB has to show restraint. Existential penalties... ending somebody's career or threatening the survival of a franchise (which wiping out the most important part of its history would likely do)... is the surest and fastest way to a cascading failure that brings down multiple teams and gravely damages MLB. Everyone targeted would be telling all about what the teams they were with before and after the Astros were doing, dragging whoever they could under the bus with them. MLB would lose a major market. Crane, after seeing an investment worth hundreds of millions turned to ash, would likely make it his mission to dig up dirt on anyone else who was cheating. If they just tell the Astros to take their medicine, pony up some cash and a draft pick and publicly eat crow, they might be able to contain this crisis. Of course the press is likely following up a bunch of branching leads from the original story, involving other teams. And Manfred might just want to Manfred and fuck it all up...

The only way this calculus doesn't apply is if whatever the Astros allegedly did was a one-off, and the odds of that are damn near zero.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #304 on: November 18, 2019, 05:56:46 pm »
I'm sure it is how they have been advised but I'm bothered that there has been no comment from the Astros players.

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« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 05:59:15 pm by Col. Sphinx Drummond »
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #305 on: November 18, 2019, 06:26:15 pm »
Tom Verducci has a few articles in his back catalogue on the topic of the MLB surveillance scandal.  Note that I'm calling it the MLB surveillance scandal.  His Red Sox cheating article in 2017 was not laser-focused on just one team.  That article took a much broader look at the issue.  Sorry for the overlong excerpting:

Quote
To speed replay along, MLB allowed live feeds of games in each team's video replay monitor. Many of those monitors are located directly behind the dugout, which means the catcher's signs seen in real time can be relayed to the bench and/or the hitter extremely quickly.

"They really should have the monitor on delay," said one veteran player. "But baseball doesn't want to do that. Why? Pace of play. They want replay decided as quickly as possible. That means they don't want even the extra three or four seconds it would take if you had it on delay."

How common is stealing signs off the live television feed?  "Goes on all the time," the player said. "Our (monitor) is so close (to the dugout) you could just run up and whistle" to the hitter to communicate what pitch is coming.

I'm presuming that this veteran player isn't an Astro describing Houston's setup.  The following is from 2018:

Quote
Among the developments that are slowing baseball games to a crawl: the proliferation of electronic surveillance. Many clubs now have as many as six high magnification cameras installed in their home ballpark specifically designed to steal signs from opponents.

Here’s how quickly things have changed, according to a Dodgers source. Three years ago, if you walked into the Dodgers’ video room behind their Dodger Stadium dugout you would likely have found Zack Greinke pouring over video of opposing hitters, looking for any edge he could find to match up his stuff against their weakness. This year, if you walked into the same room you would have found a small army of 20-something analysts in polo shirts and slacks pouring over video from the in-house cameras, like the security room at a Vegas casino. Most teams train their cameras on the catcher, the pitcher (from several angles), the third base coach and the dugout. 

These cameras are not used for training purposes. They are used expressly for stealing signs and deciphering “tells” from pitchers.
...
The first thing Manfred should do is order all in-house surveillance cameras eliminated.  “I’m all for that,” said one big league manager. “The big market teams have an advantage there. Now everybody is suspicious—and teams are suspicious because they’re pulling the same tricks they’re worried about the other guy pulling.”

Interesting that the example given is the Dodgers.  Anyway, against this backdrop, MLB implemented a new, 5-page set of detailed rules that seeks to prevent exactly the type of behavior described above.  You can look up the rules, but generally, all in-stadium video is on a delay, an MLB security person sits next to your replay guy, and no monitors are allowed within a trash-can-bang of the dugout.  Verducci explained those new rules back in February of this year, and again explained why they were being implemented. 

Quote
Commissioner Rob Manfred believed the restrictions were necessary because high-tech sign stealing grew more prevalent and slowed the pace of play because of the paranoia it engendered. Last November general managers thoroughly endorsed the adopting of such rules rather than engage in what they saw as a coming “high-tech arms race to cheat,” according to one source.

About six teams last year were commonly understood to have installed in-house cameras in centerfield that were trained on opposing catchers’ signs, according to one general manager. Several other teams were under heavy suspicion. The sign stealing forced most teams to adopt multiple sets of signs even with the bases empty. Those signs were changed often, even within at-bats, which slowed the pace of play.

Manfred is probably pissed off right now.  He probably thought he had skated by the whole tech-assisted-sign-stealing thing by getting those new rules in place before the general public caught on.  Now, because the Astros put a target on their backs by pissing off reporters multiple times this year, and because Fiers gave on-the-record quotes that named one specific team, it's a full-blown scandal. 

I can't quite figure out what MLB's ultimate play is here.  They'll want to punish the Astros to show that they're serious about curbing cheating, but also try to keep it from turning into existential panic about the sanctity of the game--because that would be a real threat to their revenue streams.  My guess is that they lightly punish the Astros (as compared to what the mob is calling for), keep the inquiry confined to the just Houston's activities, and issue a public determination that there was no evidence that the tech-assisted-sign-stealing extended into the playoffs or beyond 2017.  The punishment will come with an assurance to Vegas and the general public that the 2019 rule changes are more than sufficient to ensure that this is no longer a problem. 

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #306 on: November 18, 2019, 06:29:47 pm »
Excellent post,  Astroandy.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #308 on: November 19, 2019, 08:07:31 am »
Sorry if this is Cabrera'd.

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/sports/astros/amp/MLB-told-video-monitors-to-listen-for-Astros-14844792.php?utm_campaign=CMS

“I’m confident that, in general, most of the time we tried...” 

Way to nail it down, boss.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #309 on: November 19, 2019, 10:27:30 am »
jealousy?
forever is composed entirely of nows

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #310 on: November 19, 2019, 10:41:35 am »
I imagine that MLB would have to drum up something totally new and recent (which would also mean that punishing regarding the 2017 World Series would also be off the table) if the Astros are going to punished harshly.  Fiers' statements, and an article about goings on in 2017, likely wont cut it for a severe punishment because MLB has already punished the Red Sox and Yankees.  The Astros losing draft picks, or vacating games or any other nonsense for violations would need to be proven to be violations of some sort of magnitude greater than what the Red Sox got for their Apple Watch thing.  It would be vindictive and show bias and would almost certainly be challenged if the Red Sox got one punishment, then MLB found out about the Astros doing the same thing earlier, and the Astros were given a harsher punishment.  In some respects the framework of any possible punishment (unfortunately for the haters) has already been established.

As far as how high tech you could possibly get, and how this isnt all that high tech?  The system described in the original article is clearly one that has its genesis in the minds of ballplayers, not computer/surveillance/security nerds.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2019, 10:47:14 am by JJxvi »

JimR

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #311 on: November 19, 2019, 12:14:42 pm »


As far as how high tech you could possibly get, and how this isnt all that high tech?  The system described in the original article is clearly one that has its genesis in the minds of ballplayers, not computer/surveillance/security nerds.

This is what I think also. Banging on a trash can is definitely a player’s idea.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #312 on: November 19, 2019, 12:24:23 pm »
“I’m confident that, in general, most of the time we tried...” 

Way to nail it down, boss.

That's four caveats in one statement.

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #313 on: November 19, 2019, 12:50:29 pm »
Sorry if this is Cabrera'd.

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/sports/astros/amp/MLB-told-video-monitors-to-listen-for-Astros-14844792.php?utm_campaign=CMS

Perhaps I am stating the obvious, but I see these as the salient points:
  • Early in the 2019 season, Major League Baseball instructed video monitors working in Minute Maid Park to listen for banging sounds emanating from the Astros’ dugout, a person with knowledge of the directive said Monday.
  • The Athletic’s report detailed alleged wrongdoing in 2017 only. Whether the Astros continued their practices into 2018 or 2019 remains unconfirmed
  • Major League Baseball cleared the Astros of any wrongdoing after accusations during the 2018 postseason, when a camera-wielding employee was removed from the photo well at Fenway Park, concluding the event was surveillance and not spying.
  • During this year’s American League Championship Series, several unnamed members of the Yankees organization accused the Astros of whistling loudly to convey what pitch was coming. General manager Jeff Luhnow and manager A.J. Hinch vehemently denied the act. MLB found no rules violations.
  • Clubs that break these rules are subject to “progressive” discipline, according to a copy of the 2019 policy obtained by the Chronicle. It states that if a team engages in a “premeditated plan to steal an opposing Club’s signs using electronic equipment,” it “in violation of these Regulations with the knowledge of any front office or on-field personnel will result in the loss of player selection rights under Major League Rule 4 or loss of benefits under the International Amateur Talent System.
I would take away from these items that (1) MLB already knew about 2017, or else they wouldn't have issued the instructions in 2019, (2) allegations in the 2018 and 2019 playoffs have already been looked at by MLB and found unsubstantiated, and (3) calls for anything harsher than forfeiting draft picks are unsupported by the policy. And given that any 2017 wrongdoing occurred before the draft picks punishment was announced, even that seems like a stretch. The precedent prior to 2019 was fines, which is what the Red Sox and Yankees received for alleged cheating.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2019, 01:00:15 pm by Arky Vaughan »

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #314 on: November 19, 2019, 12:57:05 pm »
I agree.  I suspect MLB knew our at least fired a shot over the bow in 2017.

Subsequent signals didn't necessarily flow from ill-gotten info.

JimR

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Re: More controversy
« Reply #315 on: November 19, 2019, 02:12:24 pm »
Seriously, if MLB. Is suspicious of whistling, I cannot imagine the Astros starting banging in a trash can to cheat.
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Re: More controversy
« Reply #316 on: November 19, 2019, 03:02:14 pm »
I think there should be “Bang the Can” night next year when the Yankees visit. They can issue little trash cans and little bats at the gate. Everybody’s stealing your signs bitches!


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