Author Topic: Cole and Game 5  (Read 2656 times)

Dobro

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Re: Cole and Game 5
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2019, 02:44:07 pm »
It isn't just about Cole.  He has the opportunity to set a new benchmark for contracts.  The contract he signs will impact the entire market this year and in years to come.  Especially after last off-season, there will be a lot of talk about how it is his duty to the rest of the players to maximize his contract.  He may well choose to ignore that, but you know that both Boras and MLBPA will be campaigning for him to view it that way.

Best post on the issue yet.  This is the reality and will certainly be a significant factor as Cole weighs his options.  Boras and the union have convinced many players to make decisions which were not necessarily the desire, or in the best interest of, the subject player. 
Lighten up, Francis.

JimR

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Re: Cole and Game 5
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2019, 03:30:55 pm »
Best post on the issue yet.  This is the reality and will certainly be a significant factor as Cole weighs his options.  Boras and the union have convinced many players to make decisions which were not necessarily the desire, or in the best interest of, the subject player.

Not doubting your remarks are true, but that sort of influence against the wants and wishes of the player is wrong, and turns the law and concept of agency upside down. An agent has a fiduciary duty to his principal (the player) and not to anyone or anything else.
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VirtualBob

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Re: Cole and Game 5
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2019, 03:50:47 pm »
If “historic payday” is the most important thing to him, ok. It certainly was not playing for NYY.
I think that may have been the original point.  He always wanted to play for the Yankees, but chose the potential payday instead.

Now he (maybe) wants to stay in Houston, but does it again boil down to the money?  Or is he at the point now where the money will be so good in the worst case scenario that he can follow his heart?  And if he does follow his heart, is it back to Houston or back to southern California?

We'll see. 
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VirtualBob

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Re: Cole and Game 5
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2019, 03:51:51 pm »
Best post on the issue yet.  This is the reality and will certainly be a significant factor as Cole weighs his options.  Boras and the union have convinced many players to make decisions which were not necessarily the desire, or in the best interest of, the subject player.
Not really.  All those things are true, but they follow the decision; they do not drive it.
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VirtualBob

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Re: Cole and Game 5
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2019, 03:53:25 pm »
Not doubting your remarks are true, but that sort of influence against the wants and wishes of the player is wrong, and turns the law and concept of agency upside down. An agent has a fiduciary duty to his principal (the player) and not to anyone or anything else.
This!
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D.WARD

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Re: Cole and Game 5
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2019, 04:00:41 pm »
Let's just hope that Cole wants the best opportunity to win right now.  You have to think that Houston will offer him a fair deal that will not be any more than 5 years.  If he wants the best opportunity to win in his prime, he will stay.  If he wants the longest term deal he can possibly get, I would say he is going to a California team.  Only Cole knows what is most important to him.  Cole and Verlander seem to have a good thing going too.  They seem to really push each other to get better.

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Re: Cole and Game 5
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2019, 05:12:27 pm »
It is 100% about Cole and what he wants to do.

My point was that there can be many factors that go into "what he wants to do".  I would imagine that positively contributing to the overall market for others player absolutely falls into the category of things that he would want to do.  I recall Altuve commenting that setting a new high mark for second baseman was important for him, fortunately he was able to align that desire with remaining with the Astros.  If that isn't possible for Cole, then how much that weights against other things that he wants to do only he can know.

Agents are also paid to provide advice and perspective - you don't hire Scott Boras unless you want max value to be a part of that advice.  Beyond that, MLBPA absolutely has a rooting interest in his contract and I'd be shocked if they didn't seek to influence him.

JimR

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Re: Cole and Game 5
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2019, 06:12:38 pm »
My point was that there can be many factors that go into "what he wants to do".  I would imagine that positively contributing to the overall market for others player absolutely falls into the category of things that he would want to do.  I recall Altuve commenting that setting a new high mark for second baseman was important for him, fortunately he was able to align that desire with remaining with the Astros.  If that isn't possible for Cole, then how much that weights against other things that he wants to do only he can know.

Agents are also paid to provide advice and perspective - you don't hire Scott Boras unless you want max value to be a part of that advice.  Beyond that, MLBPA absolutely has a rooting interest in his contract and I'd be shocked if they didn't seek to influence him.

Of course, these things are obvious, but they also are irrelevant if he wants something different. They are the tail, not the dog. He has no obligation to other players or to the union if he wants to stay.
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BlownRanger

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Re: Cole and Game 5
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2019, 10:29:00 am »
Of course, these things are obvious, but they also are irrelevant if he wants something different. They are the tail, not the dog. He has no obligation to other players or to the union if he wants to stay.

This.  Curt Flood and Andy Messersmith didn't take their courageous stands so that the union could control the player instead of the franchise he plays for.

The union sometimes struggles with that fact, like when they heaped scorn on Jeff Kent for taking less money to play in Houston.
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jaklewein

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Re: Cole and Game 5
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2019, 11:30:18 am »
This.  Curt Flood and Andy Messersmith didn't take their courageous stands so that the union could control the player instead of the franchise he plays for.

The union sometimes struggles with that fact, like when they heaped scorn on Jeff Kent for taking less money to play in Houston.

Well, and to JimR's point, Jeff Kent being Jeff Kent, I'm sure he didn't give a fuck about their opinion....before or after he signed.

AtascAstro

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Re: Cole and Game 5
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2019, 11:53:18 am »
Of course, these things are obvious, but they also are irrelevant if he wants something different. They are the tail, not the dog. He has no obligation to other players or to the union if he wants to stay.

It is just as obvious that he has no obligation to other players or the union.  Of course, no one can compel him to do something that he doesn't want to do.  But we aren't talking about what anybody might force him to do against his will.  We are talking about how he decides what it is that he wants.  Influence doesn't only come via heavy-handed bullying.  The point was that if he is the type to seek advice  from others, said advice may very well include a point that his contract will impact the value that other players receive in the future. 

Even if it doesn't actually matter to him, you can bet that it will be part of his statements following the announcement of the contract.  He can also be certain that if he signs a contract that is seen as below-market, endless columns will be written about how he has done a disservice to his fellow players.  Twitter will buzz, every national broadcast will set it up for debate to fill time before, during and after the game for years.  All of that is very real social pressure and in my opinion, not an irrelevant influence on determining "what he wants".

BlownRanger

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Re: Cole and Game 5
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2019, 12:15:04 pm »
Well, and to JimR's point, Jeff Kent being Jeff Kent, I'm sure he didn't give a fuck about their opinion....before or after he signed.

You are certainly correct, as Jeff made clear at the time.
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VirtualBob

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Re: Cole and Game 5
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2019, 04:54:47 pm »
... if he signs a contract that is seen as below-market, endless columns will be written about how he has done a disservice to his fellow players.  Twitter will buzz, every national broadcast will set it up for debate to fill time before, during and after the game for years.  All of that is very real social pressure ...
A couple hundred million dollars will go a long way to reducing that social pressure.  Think about that for a minute.
$200,000,000 ... that buys a lot of insulation.
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Col. Sphinx Drummond

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Re: Cole and Game 5
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2019, 05:30:46 pm »
A couple hundred million dollars will go a long way to reducing that social pressure.  Think about that for a minute.
$200,000,000 ... that buys a lot of insulation.
I'm guessing he'll get between $33.3 million and $37.5 million per year. I think the Astros will have to go 6 years to get him. However, of course, I have no real idea.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: Cole and Game 5
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2019, 05:59:42 pm »
I'm guessing he'll get between $33.3 million and $37.5 million per year. I think the Astros will have to go 6 years to get him. However, of course, I have no real idea.

$33.3MM is not even Zach Greinke money.  Strasburg and Scherzer are making $38MM, and Strasburg is set to make $45MM in 2023.  It will take AT LEAST $45MM/year, and someone may throw $50MM per at him.  I will be gobsmacked if his total deal is less than $350MM
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Re: Cole and Game 5
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2019, 06:21:17 pm »
$33.3MM is not even Zach Greinke money.  Strasburg and Scherzer are making $38MM, and Strasburg is set to make $45MM in 2023.  It will take AT LEAST $45MM/year, and someone may throw $50MM per at him.  I will be gobsmacked if his total deal is less than $350MM

Stras made $18M the last 2 years and drops to $15M if he doesn’t opt out. The Nats have some weird structures to their deals. Scherzer makes $42M but most is deferred to 2028.


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Col. Sphinx Drummond

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Re: Cole and Game 5
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2019, 06:22:22 pm »
$33.3MM is not even Zach Greinke money.  Strasburg and Scherzer are making $38MM, and Strasburg is set to make $45MM in 2023.  It will take AT LEAST $45MM/year, and someone may throw $50MM per at him.  I will be gobsmacked if his total deal is less than $350MM
Scherzer signed a 7 year $210MM plus $50MM bonus, Strasburg signed for 7 years at $175MM plus $10MM bonus. I would be gobsmacked if Cole got $350MM total. Especially since I just heard on MLB Network that Strasburg is the greatest World Series pitcher baseball player since Sandy Kofax ever.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: Cole and Game 5
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2019, 06:27:50 pm »
Stras made $18M the last 2 years and drops to $15M if he doesn’t opt out....

And then he bumps up to $45 in 2023 if he doesn't opt out.  I just don't see Cole signing a contract that includes a year where he'll less than 75% of what Strasburg will earn and certainly not less than Zack Greinke's current deal. 
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

HudsonHawk

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Re: Cole and Game 5
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2019, 06:30:57 pm »
Scherzer signed a 7 year $210MM plus $50MM bonus, Strasburg signed for 7 years at $175MM plus $10MM bonus. I would be gobsmacked if Cole got $350MM total. Especially since I just heard on MLB Network that Strasburg is the greatest World Series pitcher baseball player since Sandy Kofax ever.

Well, then one of us will be gobsmacked, alright.  I just think someone will throw insane money at him.  It will take more than what Greinke got. 
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Cole and Game 5
« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2019, 06:36:17 am »
If you didn’t see Cole’s postgame interview, it’s hard to come away from it with any positivity whatsoever that he’s going to stay in Houston. Wearing a Boras cap, asking if he had to do interviews because he’s no longer a team employee, etc. He’s gone.