Author Topic: Off day question  (Read 2077 times)

JimR

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Off day question
« on: August 08, 2019, 03:00:39 pm »
Yesterday, Mark, HH, Drew Corleone,, and I discussed this question I posed:

Which Astros lineup was the best-1998, 2004, or 2019?

We all agreed. What say you?
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Re: Off day question
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2019, 03:01:52 pm »
2019

chuck

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Re: Off day question
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2019, 03:13:42 pm »
2019 and it's not close.

Although once Beltrán showed up that 2004 lineup was pretty salty.
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Re: Off day question
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2019, 03:17:35 pm »
2019. Top to bottom, just a nightmare for opposing pitchers.
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Off day question
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2019, 03:19:54 pm »
2019. 2004 lineup is close.
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MusicMan

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Re: Off day question
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2019, 04:00:35 pm »
If Yuli and Yordan hit like this, 2019 is light years beyond anything else


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Re: Off day question
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2019, 04:22:31 pm »
Assuming that there's still some sort of social order, 50 years from now a random Houston 12 year old today will be able to say I can name the 2019 Astros lineup top to bottom. This is a historic team.
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Re: Off day question
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2019, 04:42:53 pm »
1998 is in the Astrosdome so there is that contextual difference. I still like 2019 better. But I would like to have seen what 1998 could put up in MMP.
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MusicMan

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Re: Off day question
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2019, 05:37:06 pm »
1998 is in the Astrosdome so there is that contextual difference. I still like 2019 better. But I would like to have seen what 1998 could put up in MMP.

But that was the late years Dome, that wasn’t nearly as hard to hit in as the early days.


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Re: Off day question
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2019, 05:41:02 pm »
But that was the late years Dome, that wasn’t nearly as hard to hit in as the early days.


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Re: Off day question
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2019, 05:57:24 pm »
But that was the late years Dome, that wasn’t nearly as hard to hit in as the early days.


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Re: Off day question
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2019, 06:06:46 pm »
Mo Alou could hit them out of Yellowstone.

True dat. He still may be the best pure fastball right-handed hitter I've ever seen. However, Yuli of late is looking like a competitor at 35.
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Re: Off day question
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2019, 06:17:26 pm »
1998 is in the Astrosdome so there is that contextual difference. I still like 2019 better. But I would like to have seen what 1998 could put up in MMP.

I would have liked to have seen that as well. But, agree, 2019 is better.
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Re: Off day question
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2019, 06:26:53 pm »
True dat. He still may be the best pure fastball right-handed hitter I've ever seen. However, Yuli of late is looking like a competitor at 35.

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Re: Off day question
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2019, 09:16:20 pm »
Ball is about to hit him in the chin. Pull those hands in. Boom! Upper deck!

I think that I vaguely remember seeing that one. Who was the best pure hitter you've ever seen? I'm too young to have seen Teddy Ballgame, and by the time I got interested in baseball, Mickey Mantle was trying to hit with one knee. For me, Barry Bonds was the best overall hitter.
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JimR

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Re: Off day question
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2019, 10:07:52 pm »
I think that I vaguely remember seeing that one. Who was the best pure hitter you've ever seen? I'm too young to have seen Teddy Ballgame, and by the time I got interested in baseball, Mickey Mantle was trying to hit with one knee. For me, Barry Bonds was the best overall hitter.

Two best hitters I have seen:

Ted Williams
Barry Bonds
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MusicMan

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Re: Off day question
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2019, 10:37:56 pm »
Two best hitters I have seen:

Ted Williams
Barry Bonds

As much as I hate to say it, Pujols was right there with them.


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Re: Off day question
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2019, 10:50:04 pm »
As much as I hate to say it, Pujols was right there with them.


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The stats say otherwise. Pujols only drew more than 100 walks three times in his career to date. Conversely, Barry Bonds garnered 14 seasons of more than 100 walks, leading the league 11 times. He led the league in walks during his age 42 season. He hit .362 in his age 39 year. Pujols is great and a first ballot HOFer, but Barry Bonds was a far superior hitter. Pitchers intenionally walked Bonds with no one on base. I saw it happen in SFO. I never saw Pujols given that level of respect.
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Re: Off day question
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2019, 11:01:37 pm »
The stats say otherwise. Pujols only drew more than 100 walks three times in his career to date. Conversely, Barry Bonds garnered 14 seasons of more than 100 walks, leading the league 11 times. He led the league in walks during his age 42 season. He hit .362 in his age 39 year. Pujols is great and a first ballot HOFer, but Barry Bonds was a far superior hitter. Pitchers intenionally walked Bonds with no one on base. I saw it happen in SFO. I never saw Pujols given that level of respect.

He was walked with the bases loaded, too.

https://www.mlb.com/cut4/barry-bonds-is-intentionally-walked-with-bases-loaded/c-127075262

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Re: Off day question
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2019, 02:32:11 am »
I think that I vaguely remember seeing that one. Who was the best pure hitter you've ever seen? I'm too young to have seen Teddy Ballgame, and by the time I got interested in baseball, Mickey Mantle was trying to hit with one knee. For me, Barry Bonds was the best overall hitter.

I agree.  I have never seen a hitter so locked in as Bonds was in 2001. Pitchers couldn't make a mistake. Ever.

subnuclear

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Re: Off day question
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2019, 06:36:17 am »
2019 Astros are 3rd in the AL with 5.39 R/G. (high probability of going up if you look at schedule)
2004 Astros were 6th in the NL with 4.96 R/G
1998 Astros were 1st in the NL with 5.40 R/G

I would expect the current team to surpass them if they stay at full steam, but 1998 is awfully close.

Also, not part of the question, but
2017 Astros were 1st in the AL with 5.53 R/G

JimR

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Re: Off day question
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2019, 08:50:04 am »
2019 Astros are 3rd in the AL with 5.39 R/G. (high probability of going up if you look at schedule)
2004 Astros were 6th in the NL with 4.96 R/G
1998 Astros were 1st in the NL with 5.40 R/G

I would expect the current team to surpass them if they stay at full steam, but 1998 is awfully close.

Also, not part of the question, but
2017 Astros were 1st in the AL with 5.53 R/G

Whatever all of that means. I did not bring my slide rule.
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Re: Off day question
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2019, 09:33:04 am »
He was walked with the bases loaded, too.

https://www.mlb.com/cut4/barry-bonds-is-intentionally-walked-with-bases-loaded/c-127075262

TY for this link - amazing respect!  The outfielder feigned a heart attack after making the the catch.

According to this link, it has has been successful four of  the five times it has been done, w/ a Josh Hamilton IBB by TB in 2008.

The Baseball Almanac includes a 6th IBB and the bases full in 1901 when the manager inserted himself as the pitcher, walked in a run w/ an IBB and then retired the next three batters to preserve the win - a strategy has worked five of the six times it has been employed!
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 09:35:10 am by Snuffy »
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Re: Off day question
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2019, 09:59:58 am »
Whatever all of that means. I did not bring my slide rule.

R/G = runs per game

JimR

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Re: Off day question
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2019, 10:03:10 am »
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Re: Off day question
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2019, 10:30:43 am »
Whatever all of that means. I did not bring my slide rule.

Apropos of nothing, last month my father (76 years old) introduced my son (18) to the slide rule he used in high school in the late 50's.  My son was in awe.
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Re: Off day question
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2019, 10:37:24 am »
Apropos of nothing, last month my father (76 years old) introduced my son (18) to the slide rule he used in high school in the late 50's.  My son was in awe.

I have a slide rule, and sort of know how it works, at least the basic principle.  Not sure I could do any real calculations with it though.  I keep it for nostalgic purposes, alongside my Gerber scale and ten points (both of which I *do* know how to use and actually did early in my career), mainly just to impress to the youngsters with old technology.
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Re: Off day question
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2019, 11:43:56 am »
I have a slide rule, and sort of know how it works, at least the basic principle.  Not sure I could do any real calculations with it though.  I keep it for nostalgic purposes, alongside my Gerber scale and ten points (both of which I *do* know how to use and actually did early in my career), mainly just to impress to the youngsters with old technology.

I'm pretty good with a 12" ruler.

JimR

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Re: Off day question
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2019, 11:51:32 am »
I have a slide rule, and sort of know how it works, at least the basic principle.  Not sure I could do any real calculations with it though.  I keep it for nostalgic purposes, alongside my Gerber scale and ten points (both of which I *do* know how to use and actually did early in my career), mainly just to impress to the youngsters with old technology.

I had one and used it in some class at Austin High. That has been a few years, as y’all remind me frequently.
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Re: Off day question
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2019, 01:23:54 pm »
I had one and used it in some class at Austin High. That has been a few years, as y’all remind me frequently.

Some how I didn't know that you were a fellow Maroon.

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Re: Off day question
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2019, 01:38:54 pm »
Some how I didn't know that you were a fellow Maroon.

Wow, I am surprised. Loyal Forever. Class of 1963. Football, basketball, and baseball teams. Austin High on West Avenue, and House Park. Those were the days.
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Re: Off day question
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2019, 02:32:49 pm »
Crazy.  My father was class of 1956.
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Re: Off day question
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2019, 02:42:02 pm »
Wow, I am surprised. Loyal Forever. Class of 1963. Football, basketball, and baseball teams. Austin High on West Avenue, and House Park. Those were the days.

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Re: Off day question
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2019, 02:46:08 pm »
I have a slide rule, and sort of know how it works, at least the basic principle.  Not sure I could do any real calculations with it though.  I keep it for nostalgic purposes, alongside my Gerber scale and ten points (both of which I *do* know how to use and actually did early in my career), mainly just to impress to the youngsters with old technology.

I took an aerospace class in HS that trained us to use a circular slide rule, so that we could calculate the plane's altitude with just the barometric pressure and temperature while still flying the plane. Never got in a cockpit, but still it was a cool thing to learn.

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Re: Off day question
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2019, 04:21:24 pm »
I'd go, 2019, 1998, then 2004

2019 v 1998
1st Bagwell vs Gurriel.  close to a draw, which is crazy to me, slight edge to Bags
2nd Biggio v Altuve, As of now its 1998 Biggio.
SS Gutierrez/The Viz vs Correa.  Correa
3rd Spiers/Berry vs Bregman, Bregman
LF Alou vs Brantley, Really close but Alou
CF Carl vs George, George
RF D Bell vs Reddick, D Bell
C Ausmus vs Chirinos, Ausmus
DH anyone vs Yordan.  Yordan
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Re: Off day question
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2019, 04:25:52 pm »
Bonds and Pujols are incredibly similar through age 34 (Pujols is better though, more power less speed, and both debuted at 21), which is when Bonds "allegedly" started trying extra hard, and Pujols started getting hurt and being average.

But yes, juiced Bonds is the craziest, greatest hitter I or most anyone has ever seen.
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Re: Off day question
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2019, 04:47:07 pm »
Bonds' 2001 season was amazing. It was like he knew exactly where the boundaries of the strike zone were, and he refused to swing at anything outside those boundaries. And any pitch inside the boundaries got destroyed. I wonder how many swings-and-misses he had that year.
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Re: Off day question
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2019, 05:03:49 pm »
Bonds' 2001 season was amazing. It was like he knew exactly where the boundaries of the strike zone were, and he refused to swing at anything outside those boundaries. And any pitch inside the boundaries got destroyed. I wonder how many swings-and-misses he had that year.

He squared everything up.
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Navin R Johnson

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Re: Off day question
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2019, 05:35:25 pm »
Maybe I missed it, but JimR, who did you guys think had the best offense?
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Re: Off day question
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2019, 05:37:14 pm »
Maybe I missed it, but JimR, who did you guys think had the best offense?

We all said 2019
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Re: Off day question
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2019, 06:13:11 pm »
I had to calculate on an abacus and with beans. We were too poor for a fancy slide-rule.
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Navin R Johnson

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Re: Off day question
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2019, 06:14:59 pm »
I thought it would be the 2019 team by a bigger margin.
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Re: Off day question
« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2019, 11:48:43 am »
I had to calculate on an abacus and with beans. We were too poor for a fancy slide-rule.

That's why Pythagoreans wouldn't eat beans: they were far too valuable for calculations.
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JimR

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Re: Off day question
« Reply #43 on: August 10, 2019, 12:09:07 pm »
That's why Pythagoreans wouldn't eat beans: they were far too valuable for calculations.

Good one
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Re: Off day question
« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2019, 04:15:16 pm »
I thought it would be the 2019 team by a bigger margin.

The more we discussed, the more I remembered, holy shit that 98 team was good.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Off day question
« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2019, 04:43:23 pm »
The more we discussed, the more I remembered, holy shit that 98 team was good.

I was devastated they did not proceed deeper into the post-season.

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Re: Off day question
« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2019, 05:04:31 pm »
I was devastated they did not proceed deeper into the post-season.

Two words: Kevin Brown
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Re: Off day question
« Reply #47 on: August 10, 2019, 05:06:38 pm »
Two words: Kevin Brown

Yep. Hell, it could happen again. You get a hot pitcher twice in a post-season series.

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Re: Off day question
« Reply #48 on: August 10, 2019, 05:10:10 pm »
Yep. Hell, it could happen again. You get a hot pitcher twice in a post-season series.

Just like my Blues rode a red hot goalie to Lord Stanley's Cup.
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Re: Off day question
« Reply #49 on: August 10, 2019, 05:43:30 pm »
I was devastated they did not proceed deeper into the post-season.

Devastated sums it up.

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Re: Off day question
« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2019, 06:13:11 pm »
The fucking plumber.
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Re: Off day question
« Reply #52 on: September 09, 2019, 11:57:49 am »
2019 Astros are 3rd in the AL with 5.39 R/G. (high probability of going up if you look at schedule)
2004 Astros were 6th in the NL with 4.96 R/G
1998 Astros were 1st in the NL with 5.40 R/G

I would expect the current team to surpass them if they stay at full steam, but 1998 is awfully close.

Also, not part of the question, but
2017 Astros were 1st in the AL with 5.53 R/G

I wanted to see what the update was on this after yesterday's game and the Astros are up to 5.65 Runs/Game; however, that's only 4th in the AL this year behind Min (5.83), NYY (5.78) and Bos (5.69).

austro

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Re: Off day question
« Reply #53 on: September 09, 2019, 12:03:24 pm »
I wanted to see what the update was on this after yesterday's game and the Astros are up to 5.65 Runs/Game; however, that's only 4th in the AL this year behind Min (5.83), NYY (5.78) and Bos (5.69).

I wonder what the powers-that-be will do to the baseball this off-season, and what it will mean for different kinds of teams.
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Re: Off day question
« Reply #54 on: September 09, 2019, 01:09:47 pm »
The Astros now have the highest run differential in the majors (+240).

The Astros second half run differential alone (+149) would be good for fifth place in the majors overall. 

2019 Run Differentials
1. Astros (240)
2. Dodgers (233)
3. Yankees (169)
4. Twins (168)
5.  Astros in 2nd Half (149)
6. Athletics (138)
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Re: Off day question
« Reply #55 on: September 09, 2019, 01:35:32 pm »
The Astros now have the highest run differential in the majors (+240).

The Astros second half run differential alone (+149) would be good for fifth place in the majors overall. 

2019 Run Differentials
1. Astros (240)
2. Dodgers (233)
3. Yankees (169)
4. Twins (168)
5.  Astros in 2nd Half (149)
6. Athletics (138)

And the best lineup has not been altogether in some time.
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austro

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Re: Off day question
« Reply #56 on: September 09, 2019, 01:38:49 pm »
And the best lineup has not been altogether in some time.

Sure, but how would you like to read one of these dozen articles about the woe-is-me Yankees instead? Surely you're really a Yankees fan? Everybody wants the Yankees to win, right?
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Oh look out Lennon here I come - land ahoy-hoy-hoy

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Re: Off day question
« Reply #57 on: September 09, 2019, 04:37:48 pm »
Bonds is the best hitter I've seen. The juice, as far as I know, does not improve his strike zone judgement or contact. Presumably, it did improve his exit velocity somewhat.

2019 over 1998 by a whisker. The thing that impresses me about the 2019 team is how productive the offense has been with multiple starters out for injury. Currently, two major offense producing starters are out in Yuli and Carlos and they still overwhelm almost any offense in the AL.

In October, insha'baseballa, a healthy and dialed in 2019 Astro lineup will inspire dread in opposing pitchers.
He breezed him, one more time!

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Re: Off day question
« Reply #58 on: September 09, 2019, 05:57:45 pm »
Sure, but how would you like to read one of these dozen articles about the woe-is-me Yankees instead? Surely you're really a Yankees fan? Everybody wants the Yankees to win, right?

Fuck the Yankees.
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Off day question
« Reply #59 on: September 09, 2019, 06:45:32 pm »
The terms baseball fan and Yankee fan are synonymous. You are not a baseball fan unless you are a Yankee fan. 
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Re: Off day question
« Reply #60 on: September 09, 2019, 07:08:31 pm »
I will never forget the look of total incredulity the guy manning my corner bodega in Brooklyn gave me when he discovered that I'm not a Yankee fan.

Djoo no laik Djankee?!?!

In my normal, polite, understated way I started screaming MAN, FUCK DJANKEE!
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Re: Off day question
« Reply #61 on: September 09, 2019, 07:23:51 pm »
The terms baseball fan and Yankee fan are synonymous. You are not a baseball fan unless you are a Yankee fan.

True dat.
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Re: Off day question
« Reply #62 on: October 08, 2019, 11:44:27 am »
The terms baseball fan and Yankee fan are synonymous. You are not a baseball fan unless you are a Yankee fan.
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