Author Topic: USWNT  (Read 1943 times)

Col. Sphinx Drummond

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Re: USWNT
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2019, 08:18:46 pm »
I think athletes like Myles Straw or Mike Trout or Russell Wilson or Steph Curry or Sidney Crosby could have been great soccer players if it were their passion and they played from an early age.
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Re: USWNT
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2019, 08:34:28 pm »
I think athletes like Myles Straw or Mike Trout or Russell Wilson or Steph Curry or Sidney Crosby could have been great soccer players if it were their passion and they played from an early age.

Ding, ding, ding!

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Re: USWNT
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2019, 08:42:53 pm »
I disagree. I think being able to track a baseball as well as Altuve does is a very rare gift

What does "track a baseball" mean?

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and the same for Messi and ball control (and whatever else he does)

You are missing the bigger picture of what it means to be elite at whatever sport  you want to give your god-given skills and passion to. Don't ever sell any athlete short of what they can do once that clicks inside of them. There were people in futbol who doubted Messi just as there were people in baseball who doubted Altuve. By compartmentalizing athletes and saying "you should try playing X because you're not made for this game" is selling short the athlete and that is just not right (IMHO). We would never have a movie like "Rudy" to applaud as well.

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and I don't think one translates into another and it can only be learned to a certain extent.

So you say that they chose the right sport given their skill and not so much their passion? So who gets to tell an athlete "You're a basketball player and you over there you are a baseball player and you over there, it's football for you". What criteria would you use... where they are from and what height and weight and current skill they have? That is sad to me. Again, IMHO.

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Tim Tebow is an amazing and passionate athlete, but can he learn to hit a baseball at the MLB level?

You want to tell him no before he tries?

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What's missing if he can't?

Nothing because he tried it and while he may not perform to your standard, he gave it a shot and proved to himself that he can't perform at a very high level (but certainly can perform at a level well above a mediocre or average level athlete). I love it when we fans get to decide what excellence means for a stud like Tebow. He's out there trying and that is commendable to me. Again, IMHO. Making up one's mind before giving the kid a chance is par for the American course I guess and why we will never tap resources available to us to build a solid soccer athlete in America. We don't believe athletes are made here to even try.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2019, 08:47:38 pm by Noe in Austin »

Noe

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Re: USWNT
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2019, 09:00:46 pm »
I think athletes like Myles Straw or Mike Trout or Russell Wilson or Steph Curry or Sidney Crosby could have been great soccer players if it were their passion and they played from an early age.

Your original question about the USMT in soccer was a good one and while we all have opinions that vary (and we are entitled to said opinions), one thing that intrigues me is how success can be achieved once we take the status quo or things we are currently trying and throw it out the window and really refuse to accept we as American's suck at soccer and thus accept our standing in the world as also-rans at the World Game.

It took guts for a Herb Brooks to say "no" to the status quo. It took guts for the USMT in Volleyball to refuse to let the other nations of the world to take our game and make it their world game.  The criticism I have of the USMT in soccer is the fragmented, disjointed, very vague and lacking depth leadership for the team. Cut off the head the rest of the snake dies. I've never been impressed by what the USMT leadership does here in America. I think they've settled and are okay with status quo. It took being absolutely embarassed by losing in the Concacaf and missing out on the World Cup altogether for *others* to call out this leadership and say "enough"! Herb Brooks did not let the USMT Hockey dictate to him lower expectations, he said to them "We can beat them!" (meaning the Russians)... "we have to take their game and shove right back at them!". That was met with pure disbelief that anyone can think that way in a game that is dominated by the Russians and other Scandinavian countries. Yet Herb Brooks proved he was right by building a team, not just a bunch of skilled players.

Leadership.

All the best leadership you can find in American spend their time teaching, coaching, testing and thinking of new strategies in *other* sports rather than futbol. Along with skilled passionate players, you need equal skilled passionate and great leaders. But you don't have a Bill Belechick teaching soccer strategy and studying his opponents to learn how to beat them... he does that in the NFL. A Greg Poppovich in Basketball and so on... even in the college ranks. The USMT in Volleyball has a team that is World Class and none of the players play in American Professional Leagues. But when they come home to prepare for World Cups, Olympics, and FIVA Championships, they are considered top five in the World. Only Brazil, Russia, France and Italy can hold a candle to the US Men's team in Volleyball. Why? The coaches and strategist for volleyball aren't professional league coaches... they are all invested college level coaches who are darn good... Herb Brooks-like.

So until the ranks of leadership in the American soccer world get up there in leadership, even a grealty skilled American side is just running around chasing a football wondering what they hell they're supposed to be doing to try and beat Brazil. Hell, what to do to beat  Belize even.

Col. Sphinx Drummond

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Re: USWNT
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2019, 09:10:26 pm »
As far as college sports go you can't overlook the influence title 9 has had on men's college soccer. There are many colleges that have women's soccer balancing men's football, like at UT.
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Re: USWNT
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2019, 11:20:08 pm »
As far as college sports go you can't overlook the influence title 9 has had on men's college soccer. There are many colleges that have women's soccer balancing men's football, like at UT.

And you can't name a world-class level coach at any American college that matches club or academy-level soccer coaches around the world. But you can in terms of basketball and even volleyball. The college coaches in America are very respected around the world as better or even with the best coaches around the world when it comes to basketball and volleyball and even track and field.

Soccer, not so much.

But then again, as a for instance, in club-level academy coaching, you have men like Davi coaching at the lower levels of the Barcelona club (waiting his turn perhaps to be promoted to the big club). Davi could out-coach any professional level coach in America and much more when it comes to American college coaches. So very little get's passed on to great skilled players by coaches and peripheral coaching such as you see in the MLB with the trainers and coaches like at DirectLine that make good major leaguers into elite major leaguers. Nothing like that exist in soccer unless the player decides it's better to be a professional in another country at a very young age to go through the better process and leadership they have. But when the same player comes back here to play for the National team, do they have better or more refined coaches with high level strategies to ultilize what the player has learned. I say no, no they don't.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2019, 11:24:24 pm by Noe in Austin »

Duman

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Re: USWNT
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2019, 07:44:20 am »
Let me add one more element of this.  I think the high school sports structure also impacts this.  One son's peers was a great soccer defender and a good quarterback.  He quit soccer after his freshman year because it was the "wrong" type of off season exercise.  He was trying to bulk up and all the running of soccer was not helping him do that.  The kid signed to play QB at Army so the choice worked out for him but American Football is king in most high school in America.  I think this is changing some with concussion information but that will take a few decades to show up in the USMNT. 

Let's also not discount the power of winning the world cup on home turf.  That has made soccer the desirable sport for girls to play.  I know it was among my kid's peers.  It was either Soccer or Basketball.  Other sports were what you did in the off season. 
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Re: USWNT
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2019, 01:14:40 pm »
Let's also not discount the power of winning the world cup on home turf.  That has made soccer the desirable sport for girls to play.  I know it was among my kid's peers.  It was either Soccer or Basketball.  Other sports were what you did in the off season.

There is also the discussion of urban versus suburban sports for youngsters. Like baseball, soccer in America, where kids have more training and opportunities to play are in suburban areas. That is why the MLB runs it's Urban Baseball programs to try and cultivate more opportunities and in turn more love and passion to play for young urban athletes. Face it, only basketball is tops when it comes to being available for young urban kids to hone their skills to play a game. My days as a sandlot playing kid are over. To play baseball at a high level requires fields and most of the suburban fields are for very exclusive leagues and many of them are select in nature. Very few urban kids get a chance to play there unless they are scouted and recruited and even then, there are not that many people looking at urban areas to find baseball players. Basketball players? Yes. Baseball? Not so much until the money the MLB is giving to raise fields and equipment for urban baseball takes it's hold and turns some of what we've built in America as to the "Haves and Have Nots" in sport development for children.

This takes us back to the conversation about soccer (futbol). What is the predominent way to get talent to play the game in America? Yes, it's a suburban sport much like select baseball. Are their any avenues to hone the skills of urban kids, mostly those kids in love with basketball because it is easy to develop one's skills on the blacktop? I see some delapitated fields for soccer in the urban area and mostly see Hispanic kids running around playing the game with much older Men competing in the same leagues. It's not really the same type of development as the suburbs and I don't think we have a mature enough league sponsored help. Of course, the MLS is using strategic areas where they can foster a realtionship with rural areas, like the Rio Grande Valley. It's a start, but in order to tap into urban athletes, you have to be very intentional like the MLB and open up avenues where they live.

Else, go ahead and live with the fact that you will never tap into the urban athlete and let them all play basketball instead. Ironically, both baseball and soccer draw from other countries that in the urban streets, their sport is played and the talent thrives.

subnuclear

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Re: USWNT
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2019, 05:53:47 pm »
I think athletes like Myles Straw or Mike Trout or Russell Wilson or Steph Curry or Sidney Crosby could have been great soccer players if it were their passion and they played from an early age.

Marisnick and Springer would be my Astros nominations.

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Re: USWNT
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2019, 05:58:06 pm »
It's pretty typical that 75% of a thread about women's soccer is a bunch of dudes talking about  men's soccer.
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subnuclear

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Re: USWNT
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2019, 06:16:49 pm »
I count 15/29 posts about women's soccer which is barely a majority. The other posts weren't exclusively about men's soccer.

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Re: USWNT
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2019, 10:26:21 pm »
Ugh. Not sure what you meant by the Leonard comment, but this is the sort of impressions I got from sports enthusiast when I was a kid. (So it's not what you are saying of course, it's what I used to hear from people that irked me). The black players should be goalies if they ever decide to play soccer because that is where they fit best with their *current* skills.
They did the same thing to Hakeem when he was a kid.
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Re: USWNT
« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2019, 10:31:46 am »
I'm not sure the sort of athletes that are good at soccer necessarily overlap with the athletes in US popular sports. Most US sports don't require the stamina and foot-eye coordination and probably 12 other things that a good soccer athlete needs. Conversely, I'm not sure Messi has the size for the NFL or NBA and would need totally different motor skills for MLB.

On the other hand, we'd all like to see someone like Kawhi Leonard play goalie.

Stamina and foot-eye coordination is not a talent that kids outside the US are born with and kids in the US are not. They are acquired skills. Kids in the US could become just as proficient as kids in say France, if they worked at it the same from a young age.  Kids play football, baseball, and basketball because those are more popular sports, not the other way around. There is nothing in the history of global athletics to suggest the US simply produces second-rate athletes.
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Re: USWNT
« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2019, 10:42:53 am »
Tim Tebow is an amazing and passionate athlete, but can he learn to hit a baseball at the MLB level? What's missing if he can't?

Apparently you're missing that some people are better at things than others. Just because Tim Tebow is not a Major League hitter does not mean that Jose Altuve doesnt have the athletic skills to have ever become a soccer player. Furthermore, there are tons of kids in every soccer crazy country who will never develop into world class players. That doesnt mean that country can't produce great soccer players.  Your argument here is seriously flawed.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: USWNT
« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2019, 11:15:45 am »
I never said that the US couldn't produce world class soccer players. In fact I said the opposite.

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Re: USWNT
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2019, 12:59:49 pm »
I never said that the US couldn't produce world class soccer players. In fact I said the opposite.

I read you wrong then because you definitely sounded parochial and fragmented in your assessment of athletic talent. People often do when talking about talent, usually assigning people groups and geographical areas to only being skilled to do things based on gender, body types (size and weight) and other factors. Skiers are better from Norway because they are geographically advantaged and people from Kenya are better marathoners because they are geographically advantaged. Well, no, they're not. They are passionate about those athletics probably more than people outside of their region. That sort of thinking is myopic and really narrow-minded. Not saying you, but I hear it all the time and cringe because it is usually from well meaning, well informed fans of sports that will not listen to facts that when a kid is passionate about a sport, you've got half the battle won.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 01:09:12 pm by Noe in Austin »

Col. Sphinx Drummond

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Re: USWNT
« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2019, 10:40:24 pm »
Scotland got screwed by the VAR today. Speaking as an ex goal keeper.
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Re: USWNT
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2019, 09:24:23 am »
Scotland got screwed by the VAR today. Speaking as an ex goal keeper.

The technique she used to cut down the angle and give her the agility to go left or right has been used by goalies in futbol for ages. There is no way you can leap to the left or right from a dead start. You are taught to use a forward motion to get the body in motion to leap in the direction you *think* the strike will be. That's why goalies look foolish when they ultimately leap right and the ball is struck to the left. She did everything absolutely right, in the sense that this is futbol 101. So to use a technicality of leaving your line in such a critical point in the match is very disheartening. I was very annoyed that some were saying is was a good call because she technically broke a rule. If so, then take away the farce and let them take a free shot on goal from further out, sort of like a free throw in basketball. You have to give the goalie a chance to have as much momentum as the ball striker has moving onto the ball. Asking a goalie to make a play from a dead start is crazy. No one does it.

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Re: USWNT
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2019, 11:01:12 am »
Scotland got screwed by the VAR today. Speaking as an ex goal keeper.

Replay used to nitpick calls that are correct by the letter of the rule but completely ignore the way the game has been played for a century?

Who could have seen that coming?

Sincerely, the baserunner’s hand coming off the bag for a fraction of a second.


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Re: USWNT
« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2019, 11:14:38 am »
Replay used to nitpick calls that are correct by the letter of the rule but completely ignore the way the game has been played for a century?

Who could have seen that coming?

Sincerely, the baserunner’s hand coming off the bag for a fraction of a second.


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Outstanding!