Author Topic: USWNT  (Read 2678 times)

Col. Sphinx Drummond

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USWNT
« on: June 11, 2019, 03:59:23 pm »
Took a 3-0 halftime lead and turned it into a 13-0 beat down.
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BudGirl

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Re: USWNT
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2019, 04:08:27 pm »
My sister and I are rather disappointed that we'll be going to France after the World Cup.  How much fun would that have been to see them play?
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Re: USWNT
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2019, 04:09:23 pm »
That was a straight up beatdown. Wow.
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Re: USWNT
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2019, 05:40:49 pm »
Alex Morgan’s 5 goals matched the USMNT’s output in the past 2 World Cups.

The team’s 13 goals surpassed the USMNT’s output in the last 3 World Cups.


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Col. Sphinx Drummond

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Re: USWNT
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2019, 06:01:47 pm »
Alex Morgan’s 5 goals matched the USMNT’s output in the past 2 World Cups.

The team’s 13 goals surpassed the USMNT’s output in the last 3 World Cups.


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It's almost like many of the best female American athletes play soccer while many of the best male American athletes don't. Or something.
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Re: USWNT
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2019, 06:43:10 pm »
They not only outmatched Thailand but showed the rest of the field that they are here to play. The passing was sharp and precise and Thailand was on their heels all night long. If I'm allowed the mixed sports analogy: it was like watching those mad skilled cross-over dribbles against average defenders. When you see defenders look to close on a play only to already have the other team get pass you and make two additional passes before you're even back in the play, at which point the shot is going on-goal, well... it's pretty much telling you the other side is ready to play at a very high level and you're not.

drew corleone

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Re: USWNT
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2019, 10:47:45 am »
It's almost like many of the best female American athletes play soccer while many of the best male American athletes don't. Or something.

It's not just athletes. Our USMNT is not made up of bad athletes. They're just not as skilled at soccer as Europeans or Latin Americans. We have a population 4x the size of the reigning world champions. There are more than enough athletes to go around.

The best American soccer players at lower levels typically either score goals or play keeper. We've had plenty of those guys at the national level that were good enough for US Soccer to make a splash internationally. The USMNT struggles in the midfield and backfield because we do a poor job at developing those roles. Our soccer leadership is more concerned with getting power than developing a national system, and because of that we continue to fail.

Participation in youth soccer has exploded the past 20 years and ranks highest of all team sports in the US, but where other countries push these kids to academies and develop them from an early age, in the US we have a pay-to-play system and rely more on colleges to produce our top stars. It's not conducive to building a strong national team, regardless of the quality of athletes, yet the first thing anyone ever says is that to compete on the national level we need Lebron James out there.

subnuclear

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Re: USWNT
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2019, 11:12:46 am »
I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure the current US men's team could be competitive against the Men's Thai team.

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Re: USWNT
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2019, 01:33:05 pm »
It's not just athletes. Our USMNT is not made up of bad athletes. They're just not as skilled at soccer as Europeans or Latin Americans. We have a population 4x the size of the reigning world champions. There are more than enough athletes to go around.

The best American soccer players at lower levels typically either score goals or play keeper. We've had plenty of those guys at the national level that were good enough for US Soccer to make a splash internationally. The USMNT struggles in the midfield and backfield because we do a poor job at developing those roles. Our soccer leadership is more concerned with getting power than developing a national system, and because of that we continue to fail.

Participation in youth soccer has exploded the past 20 years and ranks highest of all team sports in the US, but where other countries push these kids to academies and develop them from an early age, in the US we have a pay-to-play system and rely more on colleges to produce our top stars. It's not conducive to building a strong national team, regardless of the quality of athletes, yet the first thing anyone ever says is that to compete on the national level we need Lebron James out there.

Dead spot on!

Adding a few things:

1. There is no viable sports league to engender the type of "Lebron" athlete in the US. Face it, until we have the type of league that the European and South American countries have and pay the type of money they do (and provide the type of competition they do), it's hard to attract US athletes to the game and time and development it takes to be involved. Many of the leagues before the current MLS shot themselves in the foot by trying to change the game and the approach to the game to be more Americanized (as it were) and fail with the gimmicks. Think about it this way: The NBA is where all great basketball players want to be. But there are European, Asian and South American versions of basketball leagues as well. But they can't hold a candle to the NBA in terms of attracting top talent. The NBA is wise in investing in the world game though in order to sustain a presence for all players as the elite league to play in and keep that stranglehold in place.

2. This is the part of being American is all about: Melting Pot of Nationalities. As such, you don't get one set style of play for futbol. Futbol is a world game and the style is dictated by the part of the world you live in. In America, there is no one definitive "American" style of play. Instead, it is a mulligan stew of styles that don't really make it conducive to success. However, the women's game is styled to fit the women's strengths and there is buy-in by the players. The men, however, get taught so many different styles and influences, not one of them sticks long enough to make a difference. This is why Greg Burkhalter and his unique "American" approach to the game is an experiment the USMNT is willing to make. Finally, someone has realized you have a makeup of many different nationalities and influences for the men's style of play, it's practically useless.  Now, after all these years, they are going back to the one time they tried to make the style of play "American" and had success doing it. With Burkhalter, he's either going to push them forward with the athletes he has been given or they are once again going to panic and decide to change it again to whatever version or style of play that is the flavor of the month. Makes for more setbacks and never moving forward as a National team.

Col. Sphinx Drummond

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Re: USWNT
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2019, 03:04:58 pm »
It's not just athletes. Our USMNT is not made up of bad athletes. They're just not as skilled at soccer as Europeans or Latin Americans. We have a population 4x the size of the reigning world champions. There are more than enough athletes to go around.

The best American soccer players at lower levels typically either score goals or play keeper. We've had plenty of those guys at the national level that were good enough for US Soccer to make a splash internationally. The USMNT struggles in the midfield and backfield because we do a poor job at developing those roles. Our soccer leadership is more concerned with getting power than developing a national system, and because of that we continue to fail.

Participation in youth soccer has exploded the past 20 years and ranks highest of all team sports in the US, but where other countries push these kids to academies and develop them from an early age, in the US we have a pay-to-play system and rely more on colleges to produce our top stars. It's not conducive to building a strong national team, regardless of the quality of athletes, yet the first thing anyone ever says is that to compete on the national level we need Lebron James out there.

I don't disagree with any that but it doesn't explain why the USWNT so much more successful that the USMNT?
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subnuclear

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Re: USWNT
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2019, 03:55:28 pm »
I don't disagree with any that but it doesn't explain why the USWNT so much more successful that the USMNT?

Extremely non-uniform asymmetries of men and women soccer participation by country. Also, the US has a competitive college athletic soccer program which act as a proxy pro league. Given most of the world doesn't have any kind of post-high school support for women's soccer beyond say Olympic teams, this is a big advantage.

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Re: USWNT
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2019, 03:58:54 pm »
Extremely non-uniform asymmetries of men and women soccer participation by country. Also, the US has a competitive college athletic soccer program which act as a proxy pro league. Given most of the world doesn't have any kind of post-high school support for women's soccer beyond say Olympic teams, this is a big advantage.

Right. The US has an infrastructure for the development of women's soccer that the rest of the world doesn't have. Meanwhile, much of the soccer world has an infrastructure for the development of men's soccer that the US doesn't have.
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Col. Sphinx Drummond

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Re: USWNT
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2019, 10:32:44 am »
You all make good points and they are all factors in the success divide between genders, however, I think it is wrong to discount the favored status of other sports in America of having a negative effect on the talent pool for men's soccer.  Also in a different vein, VAR is changing the way the game is played.
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Re: USWNT
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2019, 12:02:26 pm »
You all make good points and they are all factors in the success divide between genders, however, I think it is wrong to discount the favored status of other sports in America of having a negative effect on the talent pool for men's soccer. 

I think it's all part of the same issue. The fact that other men's sports are more favored in the US is why there's more of an infrastructure for those sports than soccer.

Also in a different vein, VAR is changing the way the game is played.

You are correct.
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subnuclear

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Re: USWNT
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2019, 12:13:51 pm »
I'm not sure the sort of athletes that are good at soccer necessarily overlap with the athletes in US popular sports. Most US sports don't require the stamina and foot-eye coordination and probably 12 other things that a good soccer athlete needs. Conversely, I'm not sure Messi has the size for the NFL or NBA and would need totally different motor skills for MLB.

On the other hand, we'd all like to see someone like Kawhi Leonard play goalie.

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Re: USWNT
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2019, 05:32:18 pm »
I'm not sure the sort of athletes that are good at soccer necessarily overlap with the athletes in US popular sports. Most US sports don't require the stamina and foot-eye coordination and probably 12 other things that a good soccer athlete needs. Conversely, I'm not sure Messi has the size for the NFL or NBA and would need totally different motor skills for MLB.

On the other hand, we'd all like to see someone like Kawhi Leonard play goalie.

Ugh. Not sure what you meant by the Leonard comment, but this is the sort of impressions I got from sports enthusiast when I was a kid. (So it's not what you are saying of course, it's what I used to hear from people that irked me). The black players should be goalies if they ever decide to play soccer because that is where they fit best with their *current* skills. Ugh, ugh, ugh! It used to be a well-known thought process that people said black athletes were also not meant to be quarterbacks in football because they were skilled to do other things... plus not having the mental aptitude for that position. Then there was the mindset that blacks could not play hockey because of the wrong skillset... and of course, they could never compete as Olympic swimmers because of skillset as well.

All those attitudes have changed of course, for the better. An athlete is an athlete is an athlete.  It's not a pre-disposition of skillset, it's a pre-disposition of passion. There is more passion for a sport, not a lack of skill. Skill is learned but said work is only going to happen if the passion to play a sport at a very high level is there. So what do young athletes in America see most on television? NBA, MLB, NFL and NHL way before they see MLS or anything else. I've seen great basketball players fail at playing volleyball because they don't understand how to apply a skill they already have. For example, it's a different approach to jumping in volleyball than it is in basketball. In volleyball, you take the same approach to jumping as a rebounder does, but you jump up not forward before you strike the ball. In basketball, you jump forward to grab the ball, not strike it.  I use the same skillset I used while throwing a baseball that I use to properly strike a volleyball. The arm action, the square of the shoulder, everything is the very same thing... it just needs a translation.

So in short, it's not a lack of athletically gifted players in America, it's a lack of passion to play a game nobody watches and no money can be made unless you are like Pusilic and go to Germany and excel. And I think Messi could do what Altuve did if he had the same passion as Altuve, not the same skillset. Or do what Spud Webb used to do in the NBA.

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Re: USWNT
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2019, 05:40:45 pm »
I thought he meant Leonard in goal because he has huge hands.
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Re: USWNT
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2019, 05:57:14 pm »
I thought he meant Leonard in goal because he has huge hands.

Yes, I know. I'm saying what I used to hear as a kid was myopic, not what SN was saying. It just reminded me how some folks view athletes in a compartmentalized view. It was wrong back then, it more wrong now.

Watch this kid play volleyball and then think to yourself "How many coaches in basketball probably thought to themselves... he's playing the wrong sport, he should be playing basketball for me and I can coach him up!". Why? It's not a lost to the sports world that he loves volleyball and one day this will be the best USMT Olympic player (like Loy Ball who made the same decision to play volleyball and gave up basketball and scholarships to great basketball colleges to do so). This kid is amazing with his skills and yes, some of that vertical is all about the same muscles and approaches that the best basketball rebounders and dunker use.  That 10 meter spike is incredible and you only see that sort of attack from professionals playing in Russia, Brazil, France and Italy (where American players go to hone thier skils too). In those European nations, volleyball is a passion for atheletes so they train young. But the Americas started to take back the game American's invented and we get some very passionate players in the West Coast and Northeast and Upper MidWest. Almost the same passion as Football is in Texas and Basketball in Indiana (where Loy Ball is from).

So even without a pro league for those kids growing up, it's still a game of skill they love to play and excel at. But after college, they have nothing left but to pursue it in Europe. America invented this game but gave it up to Europe and Brazil to make into an avenue of pursuit professionally. But see how if you have a passion to play (again like Pusilic going to Germany) you will find a way to make it "your" game. The only thing missing is the passion that Pusilic has for soccer and Loy Ball had for Volleyball and apparently this kid has for volleyball.

America has the best athletes in the world but some of the games they love to play have no avenue of pursuit for a life-long endeavor by said athlete... like track and field, volleyball, soccer, swiming, alpine sports, et. al.

subnuclear

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Re: USWNT
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2019, 06:59:14 pm »
I thought he meant Leonard in goal because he has huge hands.

And is a fantastic rebounder overall. Does it translate into being a goalie overall? Don't know. Would like to see.

subnuclear

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Re: USWNT
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2019, 07:37:00 pm »
And I think Messi could do what Altuve did if he had the same passion as Altuve, not the same skillset. Or do what Spud Webb used to do in the NBA.

I disagree. I think being able to track a baseball as well as Altuve does is a very rare gift and the same for Messi and ball control (and whatever else he does) and I don't think one translates into another and it can only be learned to a certain extent.

Tim Tebow is an amazing and passionate athlete, but can he learn to hit a baseball at the MLB level? What's missing if he can't?