Author Topic: Astros just acquired Osuna  (Read 35772 times)

TerryPuhl21

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Astros just acquired Osuna
« on: July 30, 2018, 04:12:31 pm »
Per report from Rosenthal


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Nate Colbert

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2018, 04:16:48 pm »
For Giles.

Other(s) going to the BJs as well.

TerryPuhl21

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2018, 04:19:51 pm »
For Giles.

Other(s) going to the BJs as well.
I kinda figured that, but was hoping it was one for one.


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moriartp

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2018, 04:21:29 pm »
Hate this.

TerryPuhl21

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2018, 04:23:50 pm »
Now the report is Giles and cash completes the deal.


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JimR

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2018, 04:25:23 pm »
Now do we trade for a bat?
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Fynn

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2018, 04:25:56 pm »
Hate this.

Agreed. There are certain lines which should not be crossed.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2018, 04:26:51 pm »
Hate this.

Do you think this organization did not investigate this player thoroughly? Seriously?
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Fynn

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2018, 04:27:17 pm »
Now do we trade for a bat?

"A" bat?  How about several.

Knoxbanedoodle

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2018, 04:28:57 pm »
I’m glad to see Giles getting a fresh start somewhere else. Dude just couldn’t build up any good will here and never seemed to be wholly part of the team.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2018, 04:29:49 pm »
Do you think this organization did not investigate this player thoroughly? Seriously?

No doubt.  I think it also matters that Osuna is Mexican.  I'm not saying he compromised his integrity to deal for Osuna.  Luhnow has worked very hard to turn the Mexican market toward Houston, and I think that played into the decision to deal for him.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2018, 04:32:42 pm »
Do you think this organization did not investigate this player thoroughly? Seriously?
I’m sure they did, but I can’t imagine what they would find that would justify bringing in that kind of person. When the Yankees, and then the Cubs, and then the Yankees again acquired Aroldis Chapman I thought it was shitty of them to do so. I think it’s shitty of the Astros to go, Hey we don’t care if you’re a piece of shit, if you’re good at baseball come on over.
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Astros Fan in Big D

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2018, 04:32:44 pm »
I’m glad to see Giles getting a fresh start somewhere else. Dude just couldn’t build up any good will here and never seemed to be wholly part of the team.

He was fully a part of the team.

He couldn't control ABs or his emotions. Of the 2, the latter was his  ultimate failing.


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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2018, 04:38:26 pm »
Chapman, by the way, was suspended for 30 games. Osuna for 75.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2018, 04:40:00 pm »
I don't like or condone what he did at all but as far as I'm concerned, due process, punishment and whatever happens from now forward is what matters. If the Astros are willing to take the risk then I have no problem with it.
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TerryPuhl21

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Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2018, 04:41:12 pm »
Agreed. There are certain lines which should not be crossed.
I agree, but that red line will be different for different people. I believe in giving people a second chance if they paid their dues and do what needs to be done to correct things in their life. Murder, child molestation, rape would be some of the absolute redlines for me that I personally couldn’t cross. I’m not saying this is not HIGHLY serious, it is, but again, I’m just saying the redline will be different for different people. You actually have some out there in society who will have no redlines and will give everyone second chances. This will be personal opinion for each fan. If the Astros checked this out spoke with Osuna and Crane and Luhnow were comfortable with this, that’s good for me.


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« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 04:43:59 pm by TerryPuhl21 »

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2018, 04:45:36 pm »
Chapman, by the way, was suspended for 30 games. Osuna for 75.

I don't care for this move either,  but you cannot use those two suspension lengths to gauge how how heinous one infraction was compared to the other.

This is MLB we're talking about.  It took them until 2016 to realize that domestic violence is bad.

moriartp

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2018, 04:48:14 pm »
Do you think this organization did not investigate this player thoroughly? Seriously?
What do you think they investigated, and what do you think they found?

TerryPuhl21

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2018, 04:51:34 pm »
Wow! Apparently there is more than Giles going to Toronto. Hector Perez and David Paulino also go to the Blue Jays.


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Astros Fan in Big D

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2018, 04:54:32 pm »
Pitchers David Paulino and Hector Perez also going in the deal.

Anything more besides Osuna coming to Houston

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2018, 04:56:01 pm »
Anything more besides Osuna coming to Houston

No.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2018, 04:58:09 pm »
I don't like or condone what he did at all but as far as I'm concerned, due process, punishment and whatever happens from now forward is what matters. If the Astros are willing to take the risk then I have no problem with it.
Same here. His leash will be short.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2018, 04:58:19 pm »
I have a daughter who went to prison, then turned her life around. I am not as inflexible about atonement and redemption as some of you who have claimed the moral high ground. I trust this organization to do the right thing.
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Ty in Tampa

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2018, 04:59:39 pm »
When is he due off suspension?
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Nate Colbert

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2018, 04:59:59 pm »
When is he due off suspension?

Aug 5.

BizidyDizidy

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2018, 05:08:10 pm »
23 years old with two more years of club control - definitely a theme with Luhnow.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2018, 05:12:34 pm »
I have a daughter who went to prison, then turned her life around. I am not as inflexible about atonement and redemption as some of you who have claimed the moral high ground. I trust this organization to do the right thing.

+1
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doyce7

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2018, 05:16:19 pm »
My stance when it comes to these things is wait and see. I've spent the last 30 minutes combing the internet and very very little actual info is out there.

While domestic violence is obviously a terrible thing, its important, to me anyway, to remember not every accusation is true. It might be, in fact in this case it probably is from what little I can tell. With that said, it also seems that this is not something that is a recurring thing, something happened and a mistake was made. Not excusing what he may or may not have done. If he did it, he has been punished by baseball and will be punished by the authorities.

I dont like the thought of burying a guy because he made a mistake. I believe in second chances.

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Ty in Tampa

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2018, 05:24:30 pm »
I'm not going to praise the move but I'm not going to condemn it either. I just can't see this trade happening in a vacuum. I would be very surprised if players and coaches weren't consulted to ward off any clubhouse issues. Aside from the talent, it just doesn't seem like a Luhnow-type move.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2018, 05:27:36 pm »
Via Chandler Rome:

Luhnow: "The due diligence by our front office was unprecedented.  We are confident that Osuna is remorseful, has willfully complied with all consequences related to his past behavior, has proactively engaged in counseling, and will fully comply with our zero tolerance policy related to abuse of any kind.  Roberto has some great examples of character in our existing clubhouse that we believe will help him as he and his family establish a fresh start and as he continues with the Houston Astros."

Eh.  Didn't really win me over.  Osuna echoed "The positive character of my new teammates is a big reason for their success and I look forward to  bringing a positive contribution to this great group of guys as we work towards many more winning seasons." 

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doyce7

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2018, 05:30:00 pm »
I'm not going to praise the move but I'm not going to condemn it either. I just can't see this trade happening in a vacuum. I would be very surprised if players and coaches weren't consulted to ward off any clubhouse issues. Aside from the talent, it just doesn't seem like a Luhnow-type move.
+1

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geezerdonk

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Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2018, 05:30:21 pm »
It is impossible not to feel queasy about this. Given what they gave up, this has got to be as close to a sure thing as you can have in this kind of situation. Undoubtedly, the Astros are convinced that this is a one time only occurrence and that Osuna is genuinely contrite and thoroughly rehabilitated. I hope we see a PR campaign from the Astros detailing their decision making process.
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Astros Fan in Big D

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2018, 05:37:44 pm »
My stance when it comes to these things is wait and see. I've spent the last 30 minutes combing the internet and very very little actual info is out there.

...

There isn't anything out there as far as details.  There is a court date coming up,  and depending on privacy laws in Canada there may be info then.

Reading between the lines,  I'm guessing/hoping the FO knows his side of the story and hopefully hers.

I still trust Lunhow et al., and am willing to give Osuna the benefit of the doubt,  or at least the benefit of due process.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2018, 05:48:48 pm »
Giles, Paulino, and Perez in the trade.  I'll be curious to get Verlander's thoughts on this guy.  We know how he felt about Danry Vasquez.

doyce7

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2018, 05:49:25 pm »
There isn't anything out there as far as details.  There is a court date coming up,  and depending on privacy laws in Canada there may be info then.

Reading between the lines,  I'm guessing/hoping the FO knows his side of the story and hopefully hers.

I still trust Lunhow et al., and am willing to give Osuna the benefit of the doubt,  or at least the benefit of due process.
Wednesday is the next court date. I dont know if we'll have more info then but I guess we'll see

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2018, 05:54:00 pm »
I believe in second chances, but, in an ideal world, I prefer for them to be given by organizations to which I do not invest a lot of time, interest, and dough. For now, let’s hope he’s nails, keeps his mouth shut and a low profile, and is genuinely contrite about whatever past shitty things he’s done because we’re stuck with him.

I’m also just annoyed with the trajectory of Giles’s tenure with the club, primarily that we had to package him with other prospects to land a pitcher of questionable character with stuff no better than Ken’s. If LaLoosh had a million dollar arm and a five-cent head, Ken Giles’s ended up not worth a penny.


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hostros7

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2018, 05:56:04 pm »
Giles, Paulino, and Perez in the trade.  I'll be curious to get Verlander's thoughts on this guy.  We know how he felt about Danry Vasquez.

Hector, not Cionel, for those out there who become concerned reading this.


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geezerdonk

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Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2018, 06:01:19 pm »
I would be interested to know what the FO did to lay groundwork in the clubhouse.
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TerryPuhl21

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2018, 06:03:59 pm »
Hector, not Cionel, for those out there who become concerned reading this.


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Yes, thanks for clarifying my post!


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Knoxbanedoodle

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2018, 06:08:40 pm »
I believe in second chances, but, in an ideal world, I prefer for them to be given by organizations to which I do not invest a lot of time, interest, and dough. For now, let’s hope he’s nails, keeps his mouth shut and a low profile, and is genuinely contrite about whatever past shitty things he’s done because we’re stuck with him.

I’m also just annoyed with the trajectory of Giles’s tenure with the club, primarily that we had to package him with other prospects to land a pitcher of questionable character with stuff no better than Ken’s. If LaLoosh had a million dollar arm and a five-cent head, Ken Giles’s ended up not worth a penny.


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The Giles thing didn’t pan out but the thinking behind it—at least so far as I’m concerned—was sound. Win some, lose some. Luhnow thus far has managed to lose several while winning the only thing that counts. ILWT.

hostros7

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2018, 06:16:03 pm »
The Giles thing didn’t pan out but the thinking behind it—at least so far as I’m concerned—was sound. Win some, lose some. Luhnow thus far has managed to lose several while winning the only thing that counts. ILWT.

Definitely not criticizing the logic—and let’s not forget that he did give us some really good innings at times—but it’s still frustrating to see a guy with all the talent not be able to harness his emotions and possess the mental and emotional skills to succeed at a high level.


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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2018, 06:16:42 pm »
I believe in second chances, but, in an ideal world, I prefer for them to be given by organizations to which I do not invest a lot of time, interest, and dough.

This is where I'm at.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2018, 06:25:58 pm »
This is where I'm at.

Well, I guess you have a choice to make. I trust the organization.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2018, 06:35:26 pm »
I'm wondering how effective he'll be after the long layoff.
In 2017 it would have been "just let him shake the rust off... as long as he's ready for the postseason." This year he needs to be ready and effective from day one.
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hostros7

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2018, 06:38:03 pm »
I'm wondering how effective he'll be after the long layoff.
In 2017 it would have been "just let him shake the rust off... as long as he's ready for the postseason." This year he needs to be ready and effective from day one.

Osuna has been pitching in the minors for a few weeks already.


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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2018, 06:43:46 pm »
Well, I guess you have a choice to make. I trust the organization.

We live in a world of ambiguity. It’s ok to remain a supporter of the club and also not feel entirely comfortable with bringing a guy into the clubhouse who engaged in “alleged behavior” that warranted a 75 game suspension. I, too, trust that the organization was thorough and thoughtful about trading for Osuna, and they certainly must feel strongly about his ability to contribute from a baseball perspective to take him on with his baggage.


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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2018, 06:50:01 pm »
It is impossible not to feel queasy about this. Given what they gave up, this has got to be as close to a sure thing as you can have in this kind of situation. Undoubtedly, the Astros are convinced that this is a one time only occurrence and that Osuna is genuinely contrite and thoroughly rehabilitated. I hope we see a PR campaign from the Astros detailing their decision making process.
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don't sleep on the fact that, surely, Crane was given a chance to veto this kind of deal.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2018, 06:51:05 pm »
I'm wondering how effective he'll be after the long layoff.
In 2017 it would have been "just let him shake the rust off... as long as he's ready for the postseason." This year he needs to be ready and effective from day one.
This is is just something I read off another board so don’t hold me to it, but apparently he has made 7 appearances in AAA and has given up nary a run.


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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2018, 06:51:16 pm »
No doubt.  I think it also matters that Osuna is Mexican.  I'm not saying he compromised his integrity to deal for Osuna.  Luhnow has worked very hard to turn the Mexican market toward Houston, and I think that played into the decision to deal for him.

The Not Supporting Teams With Wife Beaters market would surely be a consideration, too. I don't know what Osuna did, but the Blue Jays trading such a young, talented closer cannot be ignored.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2018, 06:53:35 pm »
This interview with Verlander is not particularly promising

https://twitter.com/brianmctaggart/status/1024079491205746688
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #50 on: July 30, 2018, 06:55:39 pm »
You aren't supporting domestic abuse because your team traded for a guy who beat his wife (allegedly). Just like we aren't all racists because our team has a guy who made fun of Asian people.
Today seems like a good day to burn a bridge or two

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #51 on: July 30, 2018, 06:59:36 pm »
This interview with Verlander is not particularly promising

https://twitter.com/brianmctaggart/status/1024079491205746688
Perhaps it is just me but I didn’t see anything in that video that was a red flag or indicates a problem.


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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #52 on: July 30, 2018, 07:01:21 pm »
He said he doesn't like abusers and that isn't going to change.  He also said Osuna is going to address the clubhouse and they will deal with it going forward.

I think Luhnow knows his clubhouse and he knows what they will and will not tolerate and acts accordingly.  He wants to win, but he knows who is team is and what they are.
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Knoxbanedoodle

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #53 on: July 30, 2018, 07:03:10 pm »
You aren't supporting domestic abuse because your team traded for a guy who beat his wife (allegedly). Just like we aren't all racists because our team has a guy who made fun of Asian people.

When you support an institution that itself supports, in whatever way, bad behavior, you are part of the problem. I think that is why so many here feel queasy about the trade.

FWIW, I fall into the “jury’s-out” “second chances” “trust Luhnow” camp, but I appreciate the hand-wringing.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #54 on: July 30, 2018, 07:07:28 pm »
He said he doesn't like abusers and that isn't going to change.  He also said Osuna is going to address the clubhouse and they will deal with it going forward.

I think Luhnow knows his clubhouse and he knows what they will and will not tolerate and acts accordingly.  He wants to win, but he knows who is team is and what they are.

This.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #55 on: July 30, 2018, 07:08:41 pm »
Perhaps it is just me but I didn’t see anything in that video that was a red flag or indicates a problem.


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Neither did I. I wouldn't expect him grinning ear-to-ear.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #56 on: July 30, 2018, 07:15:20 pm »
When you support an institution that itself supports, in whatever way, bad behavior, you are part of the problem. I think that is why so many here feel queasy about the trade.

FWIW, I fall into the “jury’s-out” “second chances” “trust Luhnow” camp, but I appreciate the hand-wringing.
I think it is hyperbole to say you are "part of the problem" if you support a sports team that "supports" bad behavior.

So.. racism? Like I mentioned before?

What about if your team has a former drug abuser... you support drugs? DWI... you support DWIs?
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #57 on: July 30, 2018, 07:15:48 pm »
I imagine Lunhow thoroughly gauged the pulse of the clubhouse before making this deal.  If there were significant reservations, it wouldn’t have been made.

As for Osuna, all of us make mistakes.  It’s up to him to make the most of his second chance.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #58 on: July 30, 2018, 07:26:07 pm »
I think it is hyperbole to say you are "part of the problem" if you support a sports team that "supports" bad behavior.

So.. racism? Like I mentioned before?

What about if your team has a former drug abuser... you support drugs? DWI... you support DWIs?

It’s not hyperbole. If it comes out that the Astros brought Osuna on in spite of or regardless of his actual character, that’s supportive of bad behavior. I doubt that happened.

That’s what I meant. Your examples are reductionist.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #59 on: July 30, 2018, 07:34:52 pm »
Just saw an brief 1 minute interview with Correa. He said the front office did speak with Altuve. They had a team meeting during the day. Correa seemed excited from a baseball standpoint but the rest he didn’t discuss in any detail, much like Verlander.


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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #60 on: July 30, 2018, 07:38:41 pm »
When you support an institution that itself supports, in whatever way, bad behavior, you are part of the problem. I think that is why so many here feel queasy about the trade.

I'm not willing to go that far.  But I feel today about the same way I felt when the Longhorns hired Art Briles apologist Casey Horny, except that this is a more important move.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #61 on: July 30, 2018, 08:03:12 pm »
A postseason ban for a few seasons in exchange for a shorter suspension might be better for everyone.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #62 on: July 30, 2018, 08:13:03 pm »
Osuna's statement and AJ's characterization of his conversation with Osuna indicate a young man who is grateful for a second chance, especially with an organization like the Astros.  I made a face when I first heard the news, but I'm in for a second chance. 

He'll always carry a bit of a stigma (even though he plead not guilty), but I'd love to see him be successful and combine that success and his experience as a platform for advocacy to help keep others from repeating his mistakes. .
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #63 on: July 30, 2018, 08:20:08 pm »
It’s not hyperbole. If it comes out that the Astros brought Osuna on in spite of or regardless of his actual character, that’s supportive of bad behavior. I doubt that happened.

That’s what I meant. Your examples are reductionist.
Wait.. so you think that he didn't do anything? You say "I doubt that happened"... so does that mean you doubt he did it, because the Astros wouldn't have brought him on in spite of his behavior??

If those other examples are reductionist or theoretical... what about Yuli? He did an actual, real-life thing - I don't consider us an entire fan base of racists. How do you explain the franchise keeping him on the roster?  You said previously that "When you support an institution that itself supports, in whatever way, bad behavior, you are part of the problem. " Is that instance just less important? Or are we picking and choosing what bad behaviors are offensive to us?
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #64 on: July 30, 2018, 08:49:47 pm »
Remember the track record of this org.  They released Danry Vasquez (august 16) almost 2 years before the video came out (April 18).  They took swift action.  I have a hard time believing this org would simply look the other way because of talent.  Vasquez wasn't just a guy, he was a top 20 prospect in 2015. 
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #65 on: July 30, 2018, 08:53:18 pm »
Well, this certainly brings a new dimension to the idea of a battery.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #66 on: July 30, 2018, 09:01:31 pm »
Well, this certainly brings a new dimension to the idea of a battery.

Here is a jewel from a Jays fan named Vizzers:

Quote
so we traded a guy who punches others,for a guy who punches HIMSELF.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #67 on: July 30, 2018, 10:12:51 pm »
Who is going to make room for Osuna?
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #68 on: July 30, 2018, 10:53:38 pm »
Who is going to make room for Osuna?

Who's got options?
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #69 on: July 31, 2018, 12:23:40 am »
Who's got options?

Harris and Devo, not sure about any others.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #70 on: July 31, 2018, 07:38:13 am »
Harris and Devo, not sure about any others.
I think Harris is past the 5 year mark, isn’t he?
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #71 on: July 31, 2018, 08:35:02 am »
They have about a week before they would have make a spot available.  And there may be  more dealing between now and then.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #72 on: July 31, 2018, 09:04:36 am »
Passan unloads on Luhnow:

Like the Blue Jays, who themselves revoltingly held on to Osuna in hopes of extracting trade value rather than simply releasing him, Luhnow, the Astros’ president and general manager, was unmoved. In trying to explain the team’s motivations, he addressed the obvious duplicity of the so-called “zero-tolerance policy.” For an organization as wedded to objective data as the Astros, you’d think they could tell the difference between zero arrests for domestic assault and one arrest for domestic assault. But no. That’s not what the Astros’ zero-tolerance policy means. It’s zero tolerance for those in the Astros’ organization and plenty of tolerance for those arrested elsewhere.

“Quite frankly,” Luhnow said, “I believe that you can have a zero-tolerance policy and also have an opportunity to give people second chances when they have made mistakes in the past in other organizations. That’s kind of how we put those two things together.”

Quite frankly, that is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever heard.

https://sports.yahoo.com/trading-roberto-osuna-houston-astros-show-no-conscience-134758777.html

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #73 on: July 31, 2018, 09:40:17 am »
Passan unloads on Luhnow:

Like the Blue Jays, who themselves revoltingly held on to Osuna in hopes of extracting trade value rather than simply releasing him, Luhnow, the Astros’ president and general manager, was unmoved. In trying to explain the team’s motivations, he addressed the obvious duplicity of the so-called “zero-tolerance policy.” For an organization as wedded to objective data as the Astros, you’d think they could tell the difference between zero arrests for domestic assault and one arrest for domestic assault. But no. That’s not what the Astros’ zero-tolerance policy means. It’s zero tolerance for those in the Astros’ organization and plenty of tolerance for those arrested elsewhere.

“Quite frankly,” Luhnow said, “I believe that you can have a zero-tolerance policy and also have an opportunity to give people second chances when they have made mistakes in the past in other organizations. That’s kind of how we put those two things together.”

Quite frankly, that is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever heard.

https://sports.yahoo.com/trading-roberto-osuna-houston-astros-show-no-conscience-134758777.html

Fuck him. Where is Chapman playing?

Redemption and second chances. Do you get them for some offenses but not for others? Is forgiveness to the genuinely contrite and remorseful, granted to some but not all.

I trust Luhnow. Listen, watch, wait, and see.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #74 on: July 31, 2018, 09:47:33 am »
Passan unloads on Luhnow:

Like the Blue Jays, who themselves revoltingly held on to Osuna in hopes of extracting trade value rather than simply releasing him, Luhnow, the Astros’ president and general manager, was unmoved. In trying to explain the team’s motivations, he addressed the obvious duplicity of the so-called “zero-tolerance policy.” For an organization as wedded to objective data as the Astros, you’d think they could tell the difference between zero arrests for domestic assault and one arrest for domestic assault. But no. That’s not what the Astros’ zero-tolerance policy means. It’s zero tolerance for those in the Astros’ organization and plenty of tolerance for those arrested elsewhere.

“Quite frankly,” Luhnow said, “I believe that you can have a zero-tolerance policy and also have an opportunity to give people second chances when they have made mistakes in the past in other organizations. That’s kind of how we put those two things together.”

Quite frankly, that is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever heard.

https://sports.yahoo.com/trading-roberto-osuna-houston-astros-show-no-conscience-134758777.html

I didn't like the article.  There were a lot of his opinions and little self-back patting but no fact.  He was happy to question Luhnow's honesty without adding any factual basis for his questioning it.  By the time I was done reading it felt more like clickbait than quality journalism.  Being fast/first is better than being later/accurate.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #75 on: July 31, 2018, 09:48:24 am »
I’m just saying the redline will be different for different people.

Nailed it. Athletes get a different red line.   

I think you meant that fans' red lines are different, which is true. It's also true for the decision makers. Colleges are particularly guilty of this...
non-athlete: "s/he broke the code of conduct. Expel now"
athlete: "let's give him a change to turn himself around before we turn him into the police"

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #76 on: July 31, 2018, 09:58:11 am »
I didn't like the article.  There were a lot of his opinions and little self-back patting but no fact.  He was happy to question Luhnow's honesty without adding any factual basis for his questioning it.  By the time I was done reading it felt more like clickbait than quality journalism.  Being fast/first is better than being later/accurate.

The old "Well I didn't like the opinion so I'll attack the writer and his integrity" approach.

Please explain what you believe a "zero tolerance policy" to be.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #77 on: July 31, 2018, 10:19:40 am »
Please explain what you believe a "zero tolerance policy" to be.

That's my problem with this -- the seeming disconnect between a zero tolerance policy for your own guys, but a second-chance policy for other teams' guys.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #78 on: July 31, 2018, 10:21:57 am »
Not a fan of this at all.  If what I’ve heard about the incident is true, things probably get worse down the road.  Just seems really unnecessary to ad a distraction like this to the team.  I’m all for 2nd chances, but beating up harming women is a lot different than DUI, drugs, theft, etc...  you got some real issues if you are getting violent with a woman.  Issues that probably mean you need a year or so off and getting real counseling/help.

Hopefully Osuna comes in, says the right things and more importantly does the right things.  Donating a bunch of his time to local DV charities would be a good start.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #79 on: July 31, 2018, 10:36:00 am »
I think it is hyperbole to say you are "part of the problem" if you support a sports team that "supports" bad behavior.

So.. racism? Like I mentioned before?

What about if your team has a former drug abuser... you support drugs? DWI... you support DWIs?

I think domestic abuse is a very different offense and should be held to a different standard. 
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #80 on: July 31, 2018, 10:38:48 am »
Hopefully Osuna comes in, says the right things and more importantly does the right things.  Donating a bunch of his time to local DV charities would be a good start.

That's my "wait and see" position as well.  When you fuck up, particularly in such a reprehensible way, it's on you to actively and constructively to try to make the world a better place.  It's a lot more than just keeping your head down and not being a "distraction." 
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #81 on: July 31, 2018, 10:39:10 am »
I got the alert yesterday while with my 9 yr-old son.  I said yes they traded Giles!  Oh no, oh no, oh no.  Then my son got to learn about domestic violence.
I don't like it.  I trust the organization and their due diligence but it seems so unnecessary.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #82 on: July 31, 2018, 10:39:42 am »
I got the alert yesterday while with my 9 yr-old son.  I said yes they traded Giles!  Oh no, oh no, oh no.  Then my son got to learn about domestic violence.
I don't like it.  I trust the organization and their due diligence but it seems so unnecessary.

Upgrading the pen seems fairly necessary, but I get your point.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #83 on: July 31, 2018, 10:40:16 am »

That's my "wait and see" position as well.  When you fuck up, particularly in such a reprehensible way, it's on you to actively and constructively to try to make the world a better place.  It's a lot more than just keeping your head down and not being a "distraction." 



Exactly, in situations like this, second chances should be earned not handed out. 
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #84 on: July 31, 2018, 10:40:41 am »
Upgrading the pen seems fairly necessary, but I get your point.

I'd rather JD Davis get another look in relief.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #85 on: July 31, 2018, 10:46:40 am »
The old "Well I didn't like the opinion so I'll attack the writer and his integrity" approach.

Please explain what you believe a "zero tolerance policy" to be.

That wasn't my point.  Passan's job is to get clicks and generate revenue.  Where was his righteous indignation when his sources had already told him the case was ugly.  All he cared about in that article was whether Osuna could travel given the charge and possible outcome.  No hint of how revolting the Blue Jays are at all for not releasing him.

I once had an email conversation about right vs. first with Rosenthal a number of years ago.  He was very clear to me that in his industry it is best to be first and wrong than right and late.  He didn't seem to like it but had to deal with it.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #86 on: July 31, 2018, 11:14:03 am »

Exactly, in situations like this, second chances should be earned not handed out.

I was going to respond to this but just asked myself why. The moral high ground is too steep for me to climb. I know what redemption is and believe in second chances. Those who are remorseful and contrite and who sincerely seek forgiveness and an opportunity will earn their second chance every day of their lives.

I am trying hard not to comment on the smug moral superiority and rush to judgment I see. He apparently did a bad thing and has been punished. None of us knows what happened. He, like my daughter, deserves a chance to atone and to be forgiven. He, like my daughter, deserves the opportunity to become the kind of person he should be. Perhaps the Houston Astros will help him in his endeavor. If he, like my daughter, has not truly changed, he will lose his job and be punished again.

I, for one, am going to wait, watch, and hope his remorse and contrition are real. I will hope fervently his changes, like my daughter’s, are permanent. If they are, he has my unqualified support.

My attitude no doubt is greatly influenced by personal experience. If you ever live through a similar experience, God forbid, perhaps you will better understand.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #87 on: July 31, 2018, 11:23:13 am »
Those who are remorseful and contrite and who sincerely seek forgiveness and an opportunity will earn their second chance every day of their lives.

I think that's what we are waiting to see.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #88 on: July 31, 2018, 11:23:54 am »
I was going to respond to this but just asked myself why. The moral high ground is too steep for me to climb. I know what redemption is and believe in second chances. Those who are remorseful and contrite and who sincerely seek forgiveness and an opportunity will earn their second chance every day of their lives.

I am trying hard not to comment on the smug moral superiority and rush to judgment I see. He apparently did a bad thing and has been punished. None of us knows what happened. He, like my daughter, deserves a chance to atone and to be forgiven. He, like my daughter, deserves the opportunity to become the kind of person he should be. Perhaps the Houston Astros will help him in his endeavor. If he, like my daughter, has not truly changed, he will lose his job and be punished again.

I, for one, am going to wait, watch, and hope his remorse and contrition are real. I will hope fervently his changes, like my daughter’s, are permanent. If they are, he has my unqualified support.

My attitude no doubt is greatly influenced by personal experience. If you ever live through a similar experience, God forbid, perhaps you will better understand.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #89 on: July 31, 2018, 11:33:30 am »
Not a fan of this at all.  If what I’ve heard about the incident is true, things probably get worse down the road.  Just seems really unnecessary to ad a distraction like this to the team.  I’m all for 2nd chances, but beating up harming women is a lot different than DUI, drugs, theft, etc...  you got some real issues if you are getting violent with a woman.  Issues that probably mean you need a year or so off and getting real counseling/help.

Hopefully Osuna comes in, says the right things and more importantly does the right things.  Donating a bunch of his time to local DV charities would be a good start.

Yeah, I don't buy your distinctions.  Ask the person whose loved one was killed by some one driving under the influence if they agree with your distinction here.  Domestic violence is serious, serious business and should be handled as such.  But don't put it on a higher threshold than other crimes that also injure people. 
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #90 on: July 31, 2018, 11:37:43 am »
Quote
On Monday in Seattle, Verlander said he stood by his previous comments and called this trade a “tough situation.” He said once Osuna arrives, the Astros will “go from there.”

In a text on Monday evening, one Astros player said, “I was surprised to see this move made, and I think it’s going to be really uncomfortable. I trust the organization, but this move doesn’t make sense to me.”

Another player said in a text, “We’ve talked about it among ourselves and want to be positive, but if more comes out and he’s done these terrible things, I don’t know how that will go.”

According to a report from MLB Network’s Jon Morosi, Toronto management decided earlier this season that Osuna wouldn’t play for the Blue Jays again this season. The Jays weren’t ready to take another chance on him, so it’s surprising that the Astros would.

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/sports/columnists/dialcreech/article/Apparently-zero-tolerance-policy-has-a-fluid-13118322.php
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #91 on: July 31, 2018, 11:39:57 am »
I think domestic abuse is a very different offense and should be held to a different standard.
That's fair as your opinion, but obviously not everyone is going to feel the same way. Ask someone who had had a loved one killed by a drink driver, or someone who was the victim of a racially based hate crime if they are less important. I'm not saying that to get on a soapbox.. I just think a lot of people are picking and choosing when we need to take a hard stand. In reality, you either have to be a hard liner with zero tolerance or... Have tolerance.

Also, in my original response that was directed at to OP.. my point was that supporting a team with someone like this doesn't make YOU a supporter of said behavior. No one is going to say "you know, Bob is a great guy.. good husband, active in his community.... But he supports the Astros. And they have a wife beater. So what a pos."
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 11:45:28 am by TheWizard »
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #92 on: July 31, 2018, 11:40:49 am »
I was going to respond to this but just asked myself why. The moral high ground is too steep for me to climb. I know what redemption is and believe in second chances. Those who are remorseful and contrite and who sincerely seek forgiveness and an opportunity will earn their second chance every day of their lives.

I am trying hard not to comment on the smug moral superiority and rush to judgment I see. He apparently did a bad thing and has been punished. None of us knows what happened. He, like my daughter, deserves a chance to atone and to be forgiven. He, like my daughter, deserves the opportunity to become the kind of person he should be. Perhaps the Houston Astros will help him in his endeavor. If he, like my daughter, has not truly changed, he will lose his job and be punished again.

I, for one, am going to wait, watch, and hope his remorse and contrition are real. I will hope fervently his changes, like my daughter’s, are permanent. If they are, he has my unqualified support.

My attitude no doubt is greatly influenced by personal experience. If you ever live through a similar experience, God forbid, perhaps you will better understand.

I basically agree but I think from what you've divulged about your daughter, what Osuna has been accused of is far and away worse.  Purposely physically hurting someone weaker is so much more of a character flaw than someone who has  become addicted. But if he is contrite, taking steps to better himself, and ready grow, then I am all for giving him an opportunity for redemption.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #93 on: July 31, 2018, 11:53:38 am »
I basically agree but I think from what you've divulged about your daughter, what Osuna has been accused of is far and away worse.

To me there is absolutely no correlation whatever between redemptive love given to a family member and arranging for a highly paid baseball player who beats women to play on your team.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #94 on: July 31, 2018, 11:57:45 am »
That's fair as your opinion, but obviously not everyone is going to feel the same way. Ask someone who had had a loved one killed by a drink driver, or someone who was the victim of a racially based hate crime if they are less important. I'm not saying that to get on a soapbox.. I just think a lot of people are picking and choosing when we need to take a hard stand. In reality, you either have to be a hard liner with zero tolerance or... Have tolerance.

Also, in my original response that was directed at to OP.. my point was that supporting a team with someone like this doesn't make YOU a supporter of said behavior. No one is going to say "you know, Bob is a great guy.. good husband, active in his community.... But he supports the Astros. And they have a wife beater. So what a pos."

You are taking a zero tolerance position on tolerance!  (Joking).

To me, and of course this is purely my opinion and I recognize many people have other perfectly valid opinions, it is a matter of intent.  Intentional assault is worse than a reckless or negligent one.  It doesn't lessen the tragedy of those harmed by the other assaults, it merely reflects differently on the character of the person perpetrating the assault.

As to your final point, I certainly agree that one's morality isn't tied up in what sports team that person likes.  I will say that one of the things that made this Astros team particularly enjoyable is the apparent high quality of character of the players and coaching staff and how well they interacted with each other.   The asshole factor is very low on this team, which is pretty rare.   
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #95 on: July 31, 2018, 12:13:50 pm »
I was going to respond to this but just asked myself why. The moral high ground is too steep for me to climb. I know what redemption is and believe in second chances. Those who are remorseful and contrite and who sincerely seek forgiveness and an opportunity will earn their second chance every day of their lives.

I am trying hard not to comment on the smug moral superiority and rush to judgment I see. He apparently did a bad thing and has been punished. None of us knows what happened. He, like my daughter, deserves a chance to atone and to be forgiven. He, like my daughter, deserves the opportunity to become the kind of person he should be. Perhaps the Houston Astros will help him in his endeavor. If he, like my daughter, has not truly changed, he will lose his job and be punished again.

I, for one, am going to wait, watch, and hope his remorse and contrition are real. I will hope fervently his changes, like my daughter’s, are permanent. If they are, he has my unqualified support.

My attitude no doubt is greatly influenced by personal experience. If you ever live through a similar experience, God forbid, perhaps you will better understand.

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Knoxbanedoodle

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #96 on: July 31, 2018, 12:24:19 pm »
That's fair as your opinion, but obviously not everyone is going to feel the same way. Ask someone who had had a loved one killed by a drink driver, or someone who was the victim of a racially based hate crime if they are less important. I'm not saying that to get on a soapbox.. I just think a lot of people are picking and choosing when we need to take a hard stand. In reality, you either have to be a hard liner with zero tolerance or... Have tolerance.

Also, in my original response that was directed at to OP.. my point was that supporting a team with someone like this doesn't make YOU a supporter of said behavior. No one is going to say "you know, Bob is a great guy.. good husband, active in his community.... But he supports the Astros. And they have a wife beater. So what a pos."

What I said and you misunderstood was that I did not believe Luhnow decided Osuna was an unredeemable shithead but traded for him anyway.

And the Astros didn’t support Yuli’s racist gesture (which, as others have mentioned, does not approach the level of spousal abuse).

It’s unreasonable to expect a team to cut ties with any player that does anything wrong, ever. Gradations exist and should be recognized. My original point was made with the following thinking:

A lot of folks are queasy about the Astros trading for an alleged wife beater; Wizard here is stating that being a fan of a team that employs unsavory types doesn’t make the fan an unsavory type him or herself, but I don’t think that’s the root of the unease to begin with. The root of the unease is the moral stickiness of supporting an institution that supports bad behavior. Obviously what constitutes “bad behavior” will vary according to a person’s personal beliefs.

But I stand by my point that he who supports them who do bad is part of the problem. I don’t see what’s to argue about that from a logical standpoint. [sse][/sse]

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #97 on: July 31, 2018, 01:28:03 pm »
But I stand by my point that he who supports them who do bad is part of the problem. I don’t see what’s to argue about that from a logical standpoint. [sse][/sse]
Well, there are people right on front of you (online) who obviously do see what there is to argue about. It's absurd to think your moral character is compromised by supporting a sports team that has a wife beater on it.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #98 on: July 31, 2018, 01:41:09 pm »
Well, there are people right on front of you (online) who obviously do see what there is to argue about. It's absurd to think your moral character is compromised by supporting a sports team that has a wife beater on it.

It’s not remotely absurd.

My moral character is compromised (to use your words) by all sorts of different affiliations. To this point I don’t count my support of the Astros as one of them, and if it turns out that Luhnow et al are sincere in their beliefs about Osuna, I still won’t. Make sense?

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #99 on: July 31, 2018, 01:51:39 pm »
To me there is absolutely no correlation whatever between redemptive love given to a family member and arranging for a highly paid baseball player who beats women to play on your team.

I think this is where I fall.  And I don't think that's smug moral superiority or a rush to judgment.  What he allegedly did is reprehensible and not something I want associated with my favorite baseball team.  I'm all for second chances; I just wish his was happening somewhere else.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #100 on: July 31, 2018, 02:05:44 pm »
It’s not remotely absurd.

My moral character is compromised (to use your words) by all sorts of different affiliations. To this point I don’t count my support of the Astros as one of them, and if it turns out that Luhnow et al are sincere in their beliefs about Osuna, I still won’t. Make sense?
You really think your sports allegiances can compromise your moral character? Then I have no response. I don't take my sports teams THAT seriously. I'm not sure anyone should. Then it's an agree to disagree.
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toddthebod

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #101 on: July 31, 2018, 02:13:47 pm »
You really think your sports allegiances can compromise your moral character?

If you are a fan of the Yankees, I question your moral character. 
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Knoxbanedoodle

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #102 on: July 31, 2018, 02:14:37 pm »
You really think your sports allegiances can compromise your moral character? Then I have no response. I don't take my sports teams THAT seriously. I'm not sure anyone should. Then it's an agree to disagree.

You have it backwards. I try to take my ethics seriously.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #103 on: July 31, 2018, 02:22:17 pm »
I'm all for second chances; I just wish his was happening somewhere else.
This was my initial reaction when I heard the news.  After thinking about it, I realized that I am actually for second chances that work.  I don't want to give someone a second chance if they haven't been given the remediation, tools, or support structure to help them succeed.

Although I wish my favorite team wasn't having to endure the negative press and second-guessing surrounding this move, I honestly don't think that there is a better situation out there to help this dude turn things around.  Great front office that does its homework and doesn't make rash decisions  - check.  Manager that has a track record of being relatable and helping players through tough patches - check.  Motivation to do things the right way and be a part of something special (i.e. back-to-back WS champs) - check.

So yeah, I wish that the Astros didn't have to deal with the negatives, but for Osuna's sake, I'm glad he's here rather than some crummy organization that doesn't have the resources or track record of the Astros.
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Knoxbanedoodle

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #104 on: July 31, 2018, 02:24:48 pm »
Well said.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #105 on: July 31, 2018, 02:24:49 pm »
You have it backwards. I try to take my ethics seriously.

Who died and left Aristotle in charge of ethics?


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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #106 on: July 31, 2018, 02:26:33 pm »
You have it backwards. I try to take my ethics seriously.
So... I guess you'll be picking a new baseball team? Because surely someone of your moral character couldn't support a team that has this guy on it, right? Because you'd be part of the problem?
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Knoxbanedoodle

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #107 on: July 31, 2018, 02:28:30 pm »
So... I guess you'll be picking a new baseball team? Because surely someone of your moral character couldn't support a team that has this guy on it, right? Because you'd be part of the problem?

It’s impressive how consistently you’ve misunderstood me! It’s almost like you just want to!


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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #108 on: July 31, 2018, 02:28:54 pm »
This was my initial reaction when I heard the news.  After thinking about it, I realized that I am actually for second chances that work.  I don't want to give someone a second chance if they haven't been given the remediation, tools, or support structure to help them succeed.

Although I wish my favorite team wasn't having to endure the negative press and second-guessing surrounding this move, I honestly don't think that there is a better situation out there to help this dude turn things around.  Great front office that does its homework and doesn't make rash decisions  - check.  Manager that has a track record of being relatable and helping players through tough patches - check.  Motivation to do things the right way and be a part of something special (i.e. back-to-back WS champs) - check.

So yeah, I wish that the Astros didn't have to deal with the negatives, but for Osuna's sake, I'm glad he's here rather than some crummy organization that doesn't have the resources or track record of the Astros.

Well reasoned and something I will keep in mind as this plays out.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #109 on: July 31, 2018, 02:34:13 pm »
I was going to respond to this but just asked myself why. The moral high ground is too steep for me to climb. I know what redemption is and believe in second chances. Those who are remorseful and contrite and who sincerely seek forgiveness and an opportunity will earn their second chance every day of their lives.

I am trying hard not to comment on the smug moral superiority and rush to judgment I see. He apparently did a bad thing and has been punished. None of us knows what happened. He, like my daughter, deserves a chance to atone and to be forgiven. He, like my daughter, deserves the opportunity to become the kind of person he should be. Perhaps the Houston Astros will help him in his endeavor. If he, like my daughter, has not truly changed, he will lose his job and be punished again.

I, for one, am going to wait, watch, and hope his remorse and contrition are real. I will hope fervently his changes, like my daughter’s, are permanent. If they are, he has my unqualified support.

My attitude no doubt is greatly influenced by personal experience. If you ever live through a similar experience, God forbid, perhaps you will better understand.

I know your daughter's story and certainly understand and respect your point of view as it relates to your experience with her.  And she did get second chances (and more) with you and others, but you are her family.  If my kids ever go through something similar, of course I'll give them second chances because they're my kids.

I just wish that this hadn't been the best deal Luhnow could make.  Osuna had 29 other MLB cities where he could've gotten a second chance, maybe not at this trade deadline but at least after his trial had finished.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 02:35:56 pm by Waldo »

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #110 on: July 31, 2018, 03:26:58 pm »
I know your daughter's story and certainly understand and respect your point of view as it relates to your experience with her.  And she did get second chances (and more) with you and others, but you are her family.  If my kids ever go through something similar, of course I'll give them second chances because they're my kids.

I just wish that this hadn't been the best deal Luhnow could make.  Osuna had 29 other MLB cities where he could've gotten a second chance, maybe not at this trade deadline but at least after his trial had finished.
I agree with all this. It's one thing if you're talking about a player who's already on the team doing something - although I still would hate it - to rationalize holding onto them by saying "we believe in second chances." It's a whole other thing when you go out of your way to BRING a known, recent domestic abuser to your team. There were plenty of good relievers out there available in trade. The Astros could easily have not chosen the one who beat up his girlfriend.

You can fault the Blue Jays for waiting until they could get decent trade value back, instead of just outright releasing Osuna, but the bottom line is they made the decision with THEIR player - whom they know better than any other team does - that they didn't want him representing their organization on a major league mound, because of what he did.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #111 on: July 31, 2018, 03:34:58 pm »
You can fault the Blue Jays for waiting until they could get decent trade value back, instead of just outright releasing Osuna, but the bottom line is they made the decision with THEIR player - whom they know better than any other team does - that they didn't want him representing their organization on a major league mound, because of what he did.

Did they say this before or after he was dealt?
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #112 on: July 31, 2018, 03:41:38 pm »
Did they say this before or after he was dealt?
Source: #BlueJays decided earlier this season that Roberto Osuna would not pitch for them again at @MLB level following the domestic violence incident. Blue Jays ownership and management decided to make the best trade they could. This was it. @MLBNetwork

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #113 on: July 31, 2018, 03:42:35 pm »
Did they say this before or after he was dealt?
Officially they haven't said that, I dont think. "Sources" said that, after the trade was done

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #114 on: July 31, 2018, 03:51:32 pm »
Source: #BlueJays decided earlier this season that Roberto Osuna would not pitch for them again at @MLB level following the domestic violence incident. Blue Jays ownership and management decided to make the best trade they could. This was it. @MLBNetwork

Morosi tweet

So because it's said now there's no way to know if that is what they were really thinking all along.  Not that they were going to give away any value he might have had in trade by saying they'll never play him again ahead of trade time.

Also it seems their management made some comments some time ago about him being their closer upon reinstatement.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #115 on: July 31, 2018, 04:05:08 pm »
The Osuna trade  -- and his DV charges -- certainly leaves me feeling... uneasy, but I've run across a few items today that *might* suggest things may not be what they seem on first glance:

First, an interesting take from a Toronto-based criminal defense attorney.

Quote
Given my experience, however, I can make several general observations based on what we do know. Simple assault, which is what Osuna is charged with, is the least serious assault charge there is. If significant injuries of any sort were alleged, he would have been charged with either assault causing bodily harm or aggravated assault, both of which would result in much more severe penalties. In addition, he is only charged with one count of assault rather than several, which suggests that the allegation relates to an isolated incident rather than any alleged pattern of abuse.

 The conditions of Osuna’s bail require him to stay away from his home address and to refrain from contacting the complainant. I have heard several people make a rather big deal out of those conditions, suggesting that they mean the complainant is afraid of Osuna or that he is seen as an ongoing threat. If you take only one thing away from this article, please let it be this: they mean nothing of the sort.

Then, Osuna's defense attorney was interviewed on AM 790 this morning, and discussed a few items of note:

  • Recently, the court temporarily suspended the terms of Osuna's bail, so that he could attend his girfriend's (the alleged victim) brother's wedding.
  • He suggested that Osuma only accepted the 75-game suspension to avoid further public spectacle and potentially risking an even longer suspension.
  • In accepting the suspension, he in no way admitted guilt of the charged offense
  • He expects to secure a "peace bond" (apparently, a Canadian version of "Deferred Adjudication") on Osuna's behalf, whereby the charge would be dismissed in the next few weeks.

I personally find the part about the wedding interesting.  If someone had knocked my sister around, he certainly wouldn't be welcome at my wedding.  Of course, none of the above is exculpatory, but it may provide some context.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #116 on: July 31, 2018, 04:06:59 pm »
To me there is absolutely no correlation whatever between redemptive love given to a family member and arranging for a highly paid baseball player who beats women to play on your team.

Fuck you, chuck. Her redemption has nothing to do with family.
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doyce7

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #117 on: July 31, 2018, 04:12:10 pm »
The Osuna trade  -- and his DV charges -- certainly leaves me feeling... uneasy, but I've run across a few items today that *might* suggest things may not be what they seem on first glance:

First, an interesting take from a Toronto-based criminal defense attorney.

Then, Osuna's defense attorney was interviewed on AM 790 this morning, and discussed a few items of note:

  • Recently, the court temporarily suspended the terms of Osuna's bail, so that he could attend his girfriend's (the alleged victim) brother's wedding.
  • He suggested that Osuma only accepted the 75-game suspension to avoid further public spectacle and potentially risking an even longer suspension.
  • In accepting the suspension, he in no way admitted guilt of the charged offense
  • He expects to secure a "peace bond" (apparently, a Canadian version of "Deferred Adjudication") on Osuna's behalf, whereby the charge would be dismissed in the next few weeks.

I personally find the part about the wedding interesting.  If someone had knocked my sister around, he certainly wouldn't be welcome at my wedding.  Of course, none of the above is exculpatory, but it may provide some context.
Its definitely not cut and dry that he did what hes accused of, but that doesn't matter in the court of public opinion

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #118 on: July 31, 2018, 04:25:01 pm »
These guys aren't choirboys. I believe that you start with a clean slate when you're traded to the team.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #119 on: July 31, 2018, 05:13:23 pm »


So because it's said now there's no way to know if that is what they were really thinking all along.  Not that they were going to give away any value he might have had in trade by saying they'll never play him again ahead of trade time.

Also it seems their management made some comments some time ago about him being their closer upon reinstatement.

I think you're right on the money here.

doyce7

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #120 on: July 31, 2018, 05:18:17 pm »
So because it's said now there's no way to know if that is what they were really thinking all along.  Not that they were going to give away any value he might have had in trade by saying they'll never play him again ahead of trade time.

Also it seems their management made some comments some time ago about him being their closer upon reinstatement.
I bet if they were in the playoff hunt, he'd still be a blue Jay and he'd be on the team Sunday

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #121 on: July 31, 2018, 05:42:21 pm »
This reply probably belongs in "Beer and Queso" instead of here, but since domestic violence is now a topic for baseball related activity, it's probably okay.

Violence Against Women in Mexico

Quote
A 2003 survey conducted by the National Institue of Statistics and Geography (INEGI) in Mexico found that 47 percent of women over 15 in a relationship have experienced some form of domestic violence, and that 96 out of every 100 victims of domestic violence in Mexico are women.[6] More recently, in 2016, INEGI found that 43.9 percent of women in a relationship have been attacked by their partner at some point.[5] There are many different types of domestic violence that can occur, including emotional abuse, intimidation, physical abuse, and sexual abuse. A survey conducted by the National Institute for Women in Mexico (INMUJERES) found that 98.4 percent of all cases involving maltreatment of women include emotional abuse, 16 percent include intimidation, 15 percent include physical abuse, and 14 percent include sexual abuse.[6] According to a 2006 survey in Mexico, 38.4 percent of married women suffer from emotional, physical, financial, or sexual abuse from their husbands. As of 2011, this rate had decreased slightly to 28.9 percent.[9

I am an American of Mexican decent. I grew up in second ward, a predominantly Mexican-American community. All the great things of being of Mexican decent were certainly celebrated in my community growing up. The blind-eye in our community was exactly the serious amount of domestic violence women suffered from Men still prone to cultural morays learned in Mexico (Machismo). Women wanting to learn to drive, to have a voice, to opine... they were the most victimized. I know because my aunt was a victim for many years at the hand of an uncle I hated and never wanted to be around, even though I was forced to at a family get together. How could I be around a man who beat his wife severely as he did. How come this was covered up or things said like "well, she asked for it" (by her attitude, her independence, her ability to drive herself to go shopping, you name it, they were pointed out as reasons she was "asking for it"). My uncle was macho... very macho. Ask my cousin, who also learned to fear his Dad from the fist to the face and slamming against a wall so hard, he left dents on the wall. My cousin was only 10 years old when he started to get violently abused. I was sickened, even as a young boy, at knowing about all this because I grew up in a loving home with a Dad who wasn't violent, but at the same time knew how to use a booming voice to let everyone know to walk on egg-shells for a while... Dad's not happy. But my Dad was a kind man, very giving and he never raised a fist to anyone, not children, not my Mom, not anyone.  My uncle, however, was a different matter altogether. I remember the day one of my sisters ran out of our house to said uncle's house to tell him I was yelling mean things at her (I was). He rushed to our house because my mom and dad were out and only the kids were in the house. My uncle slammed the door open and found me in the den area. He approached me with his fist clenched. I knew I was in for the same type of beating my cousin suffered. I was going to get punched in the face... punched hard. He yelled at me "So you think  you're a tough guy, huh? How about picking on someone like me instead of your younger sister!" But right then my oldest sister stood between him and me, I was not standing up to him, I was covering my face trying to shield myself from the hard punches to come. My sister told my uncle to leave our house... emphatically.  I was really scared now because my uncle had no qualms beating on women either. But for some reason, it worked... he laughed, turned around and left our house. She asked me if I was alright and through my tears I told her I was fine... but inside I was a nervous wreck. My youngest sister came and hugged me and told me she was sorry she went to his house... she wasn't thinking straight and she regretted he even responded.

I hated this man.

Cultural-Specific Gender Ideology and Wife Abuse in Mexican-Descent Families

As much as you might not like hearing this, but culture plays a huge role for Men from Mexican decent when it comes to domestic abuse. I have not been surprised when I hear older Mexican men consul younger men about how to "control your wife". Much of that consultation centers around "golpear la mujer". Translated, "hit her so she can learn never to do that again", whatever the "that" may be that insulted the machismo of the Man of the house. It becomes ingrained into most Mexican young men and they then pass it on to other young men they may have an influence on. Have I heard it as recently as this year, for instance? Yes, I have. I played in the volleyball tournament with some really great young men who played outstanding volleyball. Two of them were American males of Mexican decent (first generation). They told me, for whatever reason, of how an uncle or grandfather told them to always remember to "golpear la mujer" when they needed it. I told them if I ever heard of them doing such a thing, I'd be the first to beating the living shit out of them and then also turn them into the police. They understood, but they also said it was hard to tell those men who gave them said advice that they were full of shit. They had to respect their elders (culturally), even if it was wrong and not something they even remotely wanted to do. My cousin, who suffered abusive violence for all his young life into his teens... when he got married and raised his own family, little did I know (at the time) he would be an abuser himself. I witnessed it when one day I was visiting with him and we were both in the couch watching a game. His young son passed in front of us blocking our view of the game (Rockets game). My cousin raised his leg and caught his son with his foot right in the chest and flung him clearly across the room. He yelled at him "Stop running around in here, we're busy watching the game!". His son was hurt, both physically and emotionally from the trauma my cousin just inflicted. I was mad and told my cousin to step outside with me for a minute. He didn't think I was serious so he said ok, just to find out what was bothering me. I grabbed him by the neck and said "If I ever see you touch that boy like that again, I will not hesitate to hurt you... hurt you badly too". He smiled and told me to relax, it was okay. I was not okay, but as the years went on, my cousin... by the grace of God... got help and became a very loving father to his family. The oldest son... it took years to repair the damage my cousin inflicted but they did. The youngest boys were never aware of "that" Dad, they love him and admire him for being so good to them. When I visited that family several years ago in Heyward, CA, they were all very proud of their old man, including the oldest son. I had a chance to sit with my cousin and just talk and while we never touched on the subject of violence and abuse, it was on the periphery of everything we said to each other. He told me he thanked God and family that he was able, with their support and love, to become a changed man. I knew it too, it was evident I was not talking to same man who at his young married life was not a good guy at all.

My uncle? I don't know if we've ever gotten on good terms like I did with his son, my cousin. I knew too much about his abusive and unrepentant self for many years. He now lives in Chicago, living out his retirement years with his other kids near him and my aunt. Yes, she stayed with him for over 50 years. My aunt and I got along really well. I loved her spirit of independence and how she influenced my sisters and other younger Mexican-American females in our small community to take charge of their lives and seek professional jobs and even go to college. My aunt was born and raised in California. She was a very different Mexican-American. She drove her own car, went to college, was a really great speaker at community rallys and such. But she married the wrong guy. A Mexican man who immigrated from Northern Mexico, very much the training ground for machismo. My uncle... what a piece of work he was. He is my mother's older brother. He fancied himself to James Dean or Sal Mineo and that sort of attracted my aunt to him. It did not take long after their marriage that he was more the Dr. Jeckyll - Mr Hyde type. Alot more Mr. Hyde though, a whole lot more. One incident I remember the most was the day my little cousin came running to our house from his (we all lived within blocks of each other) to tell us his Mom and Dad were fighting. My Dad jumped off his favorite chair and as bad timing would have it, so did I from the floor near his feet as he and I were watching a western on television. My Mom followed us out the door. I don't know why my Dad did not notice that I was right in stride with him, probably because he was too focused on what he might have to do since he knew what my uncle was capable of doing to my aunt with his heavy fist. When we arrived, we heard a cry from the laundry room and when we went into that room, we saw my aunt on the floor beneath the old style clothes washer... the kind that had a pair of rollers at the top of a very large spin cycle tub. She was bruised in the face from the violence my uncle inflicted on her. I was shocked and let out a cry. It was then my father realized I had come along to help him but he didn't want me involved. "Go home and don't tell anyone what you saw... do you hear me... no one!" "But Dad...." "No buts, let me handle it.... you should not have followed me... now go home!"

The next few days I never left the house to go do what I normally did... go to the park and play pickle with my baseball loving friends or ride my bike with them. I feared my favorite aunt had died that night. She didn't, but I didn't get to see her until many weeks later. When I did, I hugged her and said "I'm so glad to see you!". She was surprised and a little concerned I was hugging her so tightly. "Are you okay?" she asked me. "Ah... yes" and then I hugged her again. She didn't know I was there in the immediate aftermath of the beating my uncle gave her. I don't know to this day if she knew. She just smiled at me and said she was glad to see me too. But many years later while traveling to Chicago for some business, my aunt picked me up at the airport. My Mom called her and told her I would be in Chicago for a week and perhaps I would like to stay with her and my uncle while there. I didn't know about these plans, but was so happy to see her at the airport waiting as I walked towards the baggage claim. "You're staying with us mijo. I have a guest room for you." I resisted at first but then thought it might be nice to get home cooking for a week. It late that night while drinking coffee with my aunt that my uncle walked into the kitchen. I had not seen him all night as he was visiting with some friends in town as well. When he walked in, he gave a shout "NOAH!" (it's what he always called me). I raised my hand to shake his and he slapped it away and said "Come on!" while hugging me. My arms were down while he hugged me and it was apparent I did not want to return the affection. My aunt noticed.

"He's a different man. He's changed alot." This is what my aunt could not wait to tell me after my uncle said he was going to bed and we were welcome to keep talking and drinking coffee all we wanted. I didn't answer my aunt, I just listened. I found it hard to excuse my uncle for all those years of his behavior. Nothing could change my mind, or so I thought. Now many years later and my uncle nearing his last days here on earth, I still don't know how I feel about him. My aunt is a saint for loving him through all of this abuse. I could not. I could not understand how my Dad tried to make my uncle understand that this behavior was wrong and he needed to change. I sometimes fantasized about the day I would be big enough and strong enough to just find my uncle one day and give him a severe beating that I thought was justified. That feeling went away soon enough but I still have a hard time seeing my uncle in anything other that abusive man that I grew up with. That's on me to work out for myself, even to eventually say in an audible way "I forgive you" to the memory of that man. I'm getting closer to it each day. But it's not easy.

Not even my aunt stroking my hair at my age and loving me like as if I was a little boy all over again worked magic to destroy the memory. But one day.

One day.


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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #122 on: July 31, 2018, 06:30:32 pm »
So... I guess you'll be picking a new baseball team? Because surely someone of your moral character couldn't support a team that has this guy on it, right? Because you'd be part of the problem?

Man, if you’re this over the top when someone is agreeing with you I can’t wait to see you in a disagreement!
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #123 on: July 31, 2018, 07:07:02 pm »
Noe, thank you for sharing those painful memories and emotions.

God bless you and the loving household you grew up in,  and God bless your aunt and cousin for the hell they endured.

Noe

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #124 on: July 31, 2018, 07:58:32 pm »
Noe, thank you for sharing those painful memories and emotions.

God bless you and the loving household you grew up in,  and God bless your aunt and cousin for the hell they endured.

Thanks AD. I wish I didn't have to share that, but I felt compelled to. As far as Osuna is concerned, I trust time more than a person or organization to say what will happen with this very young man. Somethings that concern me about him aside from his baseball prowess when it comes to what he is in the center of (by his own doing) is that he comes from a rural Mexican area. He also did not complete his high school education and from the spanish video interviews I've seen of him, he's a bit arrogant (and says that what makes him strong will to make it as a big leaguer). He also pointed out in an interview that he likes "todo en orden, no me gusta las cosas que me causan buscar or tener que decifrar como reactionar. Todo en su lugar."  Basically, he says he likes everything to be neat and orderly so he can quickly find them and make whatever plans he needs to make in as little time as necessary.  That shows a bit of his character but I don't know how he reacts when things are not orderly in his household. He already showed he can react negatively in a situation that caused him to violently react to his girlfriend, but I can't say if it was due to his internal attitudes of what he desires for his life... including neat and orderly living. That would be wrong for me to speculate. But suffice it to say, his makeup is working against him in life and unless he changes a lot of his up bringing in rural Mexico, it may be just a matter of time for the next unfortunate incident.

There is a saying in Mexico "Dime con quien andas, y yo te digo quien eres."  ("Tell me who you hang out with, and I'll tell you who you are.") For this young man that has that deep of influence in his life to overcome and really change, it will require trust on his part to hang with the right people who won't coddle him but confront some of his inner demons called upbringing and culture. Also for this young man to desire to change.

Time will tell, so for now, the Astros are the conduit for a second chance. He better not blow it with his inner demons gnawing at him that there is nothing wrong being macho. The PR is killing the Astros right now and the risk is that a big old fat finger of "What were you thinking!" will come back and bite them if this fails from a domestic abuse angle.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 08:01:22 pm by Noe in Austin »

Arky Vaughan

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #125 on: July 31, 2018, 08:16:59 pm »
Long time, no see, Noe.

Two points (generally, not to Noe specifically):

1. A zero-tolerance policy doesn't mean the guy never plays again. It means there's zero tolerance for the conduct constituting the offense, and if you commit the offense, you pay the penalty. Osuna's penalty is 75 games. He's almost done serving that. Turning 75 games into a lifetime ban isn't what the rules require or allow. Manfred said as much recently. So I don't view Luhnow's comments on zero tolerance as inconsistent with trading for Osuna. Whether you agree with the acquisition is separate from whether Luhnow is really serious about zero tolerance.

2. The Astros are commonly reported as at the forefront not just of physical and performance analytics but evaluating character and mental make-up too. Evaluations of that sort are by no means decisive, and things go wrong sometimes no matter how much data you have. It'd be pretty surprising if the Astros didn't do as extensive a check as Luhnow suggests. It's just not how they usually operate. That doesn't make the move right or wrong from whatever moral standpoint you want to apply, but it's doubtful they got into this without their eyes wide open.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #126 on: July 31, 2018, 08:30:30 pm »
Noe, thank you for sharing those painful memories and emotions.

God bless you and the loving household you grew up in,  and God bless your aunt and cousin for the hell they endured.

Yes!  Thank you, Noe. 

You made it very clear that the angry abuse you uncle inflicted on your aunt did not just hurt her.  It still haunts many other lives today, including your own.  We all get angry at times and it is easy to hurt those closest to us.  By sharing your pain here, you may well help many of us to check our own anger before it drives us to hurt those we love, the very ones we should protect.  They have no protection.

Thank you!

After reading your stories, I now wonder if Osuna passed on the abuse that had been inflicted on him - not a justification, there is never a justification for this.  Just trying to understand.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #127 on: July 31, 2018, 08:37:13 pm »
Long time, no see, Noe.

Two points (generally, not to Noe specifically):

1. A zero-tolerance policy doesn't mean the guy never plays again. It means there's zero tolerance for the conduct constituting the offense, and if you commit the offense, you pay the penalty. Osuna's penalty is 75 games. He's almost done serving that. Turning 75 games into a lifetime ban isn't what the rules require or allow....

Please check this: on either the Rangers or Mariners broadcast this came up.  Something was said that the penalty was much more severe (more than 75 games lost) if there is a conviction involved. 

Is that true?
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #128 on: July 31, 2018, 08:38:44 pm »
He was from Steubenville, Ohio but he suffered from a similar need for a "macho" self image. He first laid hands on me the night before he married my mother. He wanted to show my chubby twelve year old self that he was in charge and that I only breathed because he allowed it.

It is astonishing the extent even a mother can go to rationalize violence in the home. To the point of turning her back physically to me when he beat me in her presence and then claiming later that she never saw anything. Believe me, rationalizing, ignoring or minimizing the importance of violence only encourages the perpetrator to even greater levels of violence.

I've needed a second chance and maybe Osuna deserves one too; but I don't trust him and it should be a long time before anybody does. If he does it again, I hope they put him in prison.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #129 on: July 31, 2018, 09:02:06 pm »
1. A zero-tolerance policy doesn't mean the guy never plays again. It means there's zero tolerance for the conduct constituting the offense, and if you commit the offense, you pay the penalty. Osuna's penalty is 75 games. He's almost done serving that. Turning 75 games into a lifetime ban isn't what the rules require or allow. Manfred said as much recently. So I don't view Luhnow's comments on zero tolerance as inconsistent with trading for Osuna. Whether you agree with the acquisition is separate from whether Luhnow is really serious about zero tolerance.

You've conflated the MLB policy with team policy. If a team wishes to sever ties with a player, they have the right to do so. They'll have to eat the contract of course (if the player is under a multi-year deal) but they fully control who they will and will not associate with.

And as far as "what the rules require or allow", my understanding of the league policy is a lifetime ban most certainly IS allowed (no minimum or maximum punishments). As you would expect there to be.

Arky Vaughan

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #130 on: July 31, 2018, 09:42:25 pm »
You've conflated the MLB policy with team policy. If a team wishes to sever ties with a player, they have the right to do so. They'll have to eat the contract of course (if the player is under a multi-year deal) but they fully control who they will and will not associate with.

And as far as "what the rules require or allow", my understanding of the league policy is a lifetime ban most certainly IS allowed (no minimum or maximum punishments). As you would expect there to be.

I don't think I'm conflating anything. I'm saying a zero-tolerance policy doesn't mean never having anything to do with a player who breaks the rules. It means always penalizing, and not ignoring or excusing, a player who breaks the rules. I made no comment on whether the Astros should or shouldn't acquire Osuna, or any other player, regardless of what league rules say.

Arky Vaughan

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #131 on: July 31, 2018, 09:48:13 pm »
I also question whether the people in the media honing in on the zero-tolerance issue aren't being a bit inconsistent by not having complained about the CBA in the first place. The CBA doesn't require players accused of domestic abuse to be permanently expelled from baseball, but if you expect individual teams never to retain or acquire any player who ever violated the domestic abuse policy, then the result should ultimately be that a player like that wouldn't find work anywhere.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 09:51:07 pm by Arky Vaughan »

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #132 on: July 31, 2018, 10:01:03 pm »
I don't think I'm conflating anything. I'm saying a zero-tolerance policy doesn't mean never having anything to do with a player who breaks the rules.

The zero tolerance policy repeatedly referred to throughout this thread is the Astros' policy. Given the fact that previously the club immediately severed their relationship with Danry Vasquez would strongly, strongly suggest that the punishment for violating said policy is that you will no longer be employed by the organization. They set the precedent--why wasn't it followed in Osuna's case? Is it because there's no smoking gun (i.e., a video)?

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #133 on: July 31, 2018, 10:04:19 pm »
I also question whether the people in the media honing in on the zero-tolerance issue aren't being a bit inconsistent by not having complained about the CBA in the first place. The CBA doesn't require players accused of domestic abuse to be permanently expelled from baseball...

You keep coming back to that bloody CBA. Again, it doesn't require it but it also does not preclude it.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #134 on: July 31, 2018, 10:06:21 pm »
...but if you expect individual teams never to retain or acquire any player who ever violated the domestic abuse policy, then the result should ultimately be that a player like that wouldn't find work anywhere.

He would never find work in baseball.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #135 on: July 31, 2018, 10:10:11 pm »
He was from Steubenville, Ohio but he suffered from a similar need for a "macho" self image. He first laid hands on me the night before he married my mother. He wanted to show my chubby twelve year old self that he was in charge and that I only breathed because he allowed it.

It is astonishing the extent even a mother can go to rationalize violence in the home. To the point of turning her back physically to me when he beat me in her presence and then claiming later that she never saw anything. Believe me, rationalizing, ignoring or minimizing the importance of violence only encourages the perpetrator to even greater levels of violence.

I've needed a second chance and maybe Osuna deserves one too; but I don't trust him and it should be a long time before anybody does. If he does it again, I hope they put him in prison.

Thanks both to you and Noe for sharing your stories.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #136 on: July 31, 2018, 10:38:46 pm »
Yes!  Thank you, Noe. 

You made it very clear that the angry abuse you uncle inflicted on your aunt did not just hurt her.  It still haunts many other lives today, including your own.  We all get angry at times and it is easy to hurt those closest to us.  By sharing your pain here, you may well help many of us to check our own anger before it drives us to hurt those we love, the very ones we should protect.  They have no protection.

Thank you!

After reading your stories, I now wonder if Osuna passed on the abuse that had been inflicted on him - not a justification, there is never a justification for this.  Just trying to understand.

Hola Snuff, my old amigo.

I've been trying to read more on this young man's background and it seems he rebelled quite a bit on his parents. That's about all I could find, they were not happy when he quit high school and just wanted to hang out on the streets with his friends playing futbol. No mention of having to live with grandparents or other relatives because of his home life being out of whack. I'm going to go ahead and assume he was not abused, but he also doesn't seem to have a father figure he talks much of or either a mentor (adult). If he picked up a lot of life lessons from the streets of Mexico, then violence against women makes sense, as the young punks on the streets of Mexico do tend to think of women as just something to own and not protect and cherish.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #137 on: July 31, 2018, 11:00:34 pm »
I don't think I'm conflating anything. I'm saying a zero-tolerance policy doesn't mean never having anything to do with a player who breaks the rules. It means always penalizing, and not ignoring or excusing, a player who breaks the rules. I made no comment on whether the Astros should or shouldn't acquire Osuna, or any other player, regardless of what league rules say.

That's an unusual definition of zero tolerance.  By that rationale, zero tolerance includes a verbal admonition if that's what the established policy is?  I've never seen zero tolerance used in any way other than if you do X then you are out, no ands ifs or buts. 
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Noe

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #138 on: July 31, 2018, 11:05:09 pm »
He was from Steubenville, Ohio but he suffered from a similar need for a "macho" self image. He first laid hands on me the night before he married my mother. He wanted to show my chubby twelve year old self that he was in charge and that I only breathed because he allowed it.

It is astonishing the extent even a mother can go to rationalize violence in the home. To the point of turning her back physically to me when he beat me in her presence and then claiming later that she never saw anything. Believe me, rationalizing, ignoring or minimizing the importance of violence only encourages the perpetrator to even greater levels of violence.

I've needed a second chance and maybe Osuna deserves one too; but I don't trust him and it should be a long time before anybody does. If he does it again, I hope they put him in prison.

Tex, God Bless You. I know that hurts to share and I appreciate your courage. I always tried to find a silver lining in what happened to my little cousin and could never quite give it any sort of justification or rationalization.

I remember the day three of us, my little cousin, my other cousin from my father's side (not related to my little cousin) and me, were playing football inside the house. My aunt was gone shopping with my Mom for groceries since she had her own car and could drive them to the store. A big deal in our community, as most Moms rode the bus to the store and back. While my aunt and Mom were away, my uncle came home early from work. Almost immediately the two of us were furiously asked to hide by my little cousin. He knew we were caught doing something we knew was wrong. But he knew the punishment would in no way fit the crime with my uncle. My little cousin saved us or at minimum we were going to be asked to leave by my uncle before he would start to destroy my cousin. My cousin was afraid of my big mouth and my inability to obey anything my uncle said to me. So hiding is what he begged us to do.

And that is when I witnessed from a corner hiding area my uncle take my cousin and lift him with one arm and continually hit him with his other fist. After several times hitting him in the face, he then would throw him against  the wall as hard as he could. I can still see in my minds eye my cousin's little body melting into the wall and sliding downward as he almost passed out. That did not stop my uncle. He just repeated the beating again several more times until he just tired of doing it. I tried not to make noise as I cried for fear we would be next. But I was really scared for my cousin. We snuck out when my uncle went to the kitchen. Days later we both asked my little cousin if he was alright and he said yes. No broken bones fortunately but serious bruises. My little cousin developed an attitude each year of "I can take it" to numb himself from the abuse.

I never told an adult for fear they would ask my uncle if it was true. If he denied it, that would be the end of that and I would be labelled a big tattle-tale fibber and possibly face retribution if my uncle ever caught me alone. Besides, my little cousin said I should keep my mouth shut because what would be next is more serious beatings because I knew something my uncle could only deduce came from my little cousin sharing it with me. It wasn't true, I witnessed it, but only bad things could happen from me sharing what I knew.

Tex is right though, rationalization, excuses,  minimizing, all things that would have come into play had any of this would have been shared with someone other than family and friends in the community. Not with good ol' (name left out intentionally), he's a good guy, the guy who always shares his cafe y pan dulce with anyone, is quick to be a helper at all community functions, and even played his guitar beautifully at said functions.

It's hard to talk about this ugly side of life but it also taints the feelings some of us have for violence imposed on defenseless people. It's not easy to ignore those feelings initially and find anything good in it.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #139 on: July 31, 2018, 11:19:50 pm »
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My attitude no doubt is greatly influenced by personal experience. If you ever live through a similar experience, God forbid, perhaps you will better understand.

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Fuck you, chuck. Her redemption has nothing to do with family.

I have to hand it to you. It's impressive to stake out victimhood, employ unearned condescension and dabble in logical inconsistency in such a relatively modest parcel of digital real estate.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #141 on: August 01, 2018, 01:07:31 am »
He would never find work in baseball.

That was already obvious from the context of the discussion. As I said before, I wasn't expressing a moral view on the trade. I was just trying to make sense of what Luhnow's thought process might have been. If you want to keep pounding away at it, be my guest.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #142 on: August 01, 2018, 01:35:15 am »
That was already obvious from the context of the discussion.

You had missed so many other points in the discussion I'm not really sure what is and isn't obvious to you.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #143 on: August 01, 2018, 08:49:41 am »
You had missed so many other points in the discussion I'm not really sure what is and isn't obvious to you.

Have we had an unpleasant interaction in the past that I don't recall? You seem really hung up on picking a fight, which isn't what I was looking for. If I wanted that, I'd go to social media.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 08:52:33 am by Arky Vaughan »

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #144 on: August 01, 2018, 09:29:16 am »
Have we had an unpleasant interaction in the past that I don't recall? You seem really hung up on picking a fight, which isn't what I was looking for. If I wanted that, I'd go to social media.

I don't recall having any interaction with you in the past and certainly none of the unpleasant variety. Instead of engaging on the issues, you accuse me of "pounding away at it" and "hung up on picking a fight", I simply corrected you on certain points. Don't be thin-skinned about it.

But I too would prefer not to have further discussion on the matter.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #145 on: August 01, 2018, 10:16:44 am »
Osuna is also a fan of El Chapo.....

https://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/2018/03/13/how-roberto-osuna-came-to-see-el-chapo-as-a-hero.html

One of the young men I spoke to at the USAV Volleyball tournament had very similar opinions of El Chapo. It's not that hard to understand given that rural living Mexicans have been, for quite some time, fans of counter-culture bandits. From the days of Zapata to today, the peons or peasant tend to admire these thugs who decide to go against corrupt governments any way they can and then be kind to them. It's like a warp version of Robin Hood. It happened in New York with John Gotti and other mafiosos and of course in Colombia with Pablo Escobar as well.

What I found telling in what the young man I recently spoke to was his take on the disruptive and even more dangerous times they have now in the area because at least with El Chapo, civilians had less to worry about in terms of being hurt. With the gangs that are now fighting for the turf and drug trafficking business, it has become more dangerous (not less) with El Chapo out of the way. Even the corrupt government men are part of the equation in that business and with El Chapo, at least he kept them at bay with bribes.  So when I read that article, I already had context for what Osuna says with my own conversation with the young man at the tournament.

You would have thought I was going to feel some sort of sick feeling knowing he talked glowingly about El Chapo the drug lord.... but the more I listened, the more I understood what he was saying. Warp as it may be.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #146 on: August 01, 2018, 10:42:45 am »
Hola Snuff, my old amigo.

I've been trying to read more on this young man's background and it seems he rebelled quite a bit on his parents. That's about all I could find, they were not happy when he quit high school and just wanted to hang out on the streets with his friends playing futbol. No mention of having to live with grandparents or other relatives because of his home life being out of whack. I'm going to go ahead and assume he was not abused, but he also doesn't seem to have a father figure he talks much of or either a mentor (adult).

If he picked up a lot of life lessons from the streets of Mexico, then violence against women makes sense, as the young punks on the streets of Mexico do tend to think of women as just something to own and not protect and cherish.

Thank you, Noe! and Texifornia for highlighting the young victims of domestic abuse.  The real damage can be forever hidden by an out of court settlements, in the heart, or as a family secret.

The hope is that Osuna finds a father figure to help him become a real man, while he jettisons those "friends" that are attempting to profit off his skills.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 12:23:18 pm by Snuffy »
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #147 on: August 01, 2018, 12:02:04 pm »
Does anyone know the time frame of when the legal proceedings take place today?


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doyce7

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #148 on: August 01, 2018, 12:21:57 pm »
Does anyone know the time frame of when the legal proceedings take place today?


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I saw 2PM(1 here) local time on Twitter last night. So if there is to be news, I'd expect we'll here something in a few hours

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #149 on: August 01, 2018, 12:30:33 pm »
Saw a story saying Osuna will not be at the proceedings but will be represented by his lawyer.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #150 on: August 01, 2018, 01:21:00 pm »
Court date punted to Sept. 5.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #151 on: August 01, 2018, 01:40:04 pm »
Court date punted to Sept. 5.
That is what the lawyer said he was going to try to do.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #152 on: August 01, 2018, 02:55:20 pm »
That's an unusual definition of zero tolerance.  By that rationale, zero tolerance includes a verbal admonition if that's what the established policy is?  I've never seen zero tolerance used in any way other than if you do X then you are out, no ands ifs or buts.

What's "out" exactly?  I don't think zero tolerance means the same punishment for every crime so Danry Vasquez and Julio Lugo could be cut by Houston while Osuna could be suspended and there would be hypocrisy.
 


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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #153 on: August 01, 2018, 03:15:27 pm »
Zero tolerance means zero tolerance. It's really not all that complicated. You either employ it for certain classes of behavior or you don't. The Astros do not have zero tolerance for domestic violence, obviously. Reasonable people can believe that approach is defensible. But people cannot argue that zero tolerance need not apply if the player was playing for another organization when he beat his wife or that zero tolerance does not *necessarily* mean that ties must be cut with the offending player or whatever other bizarre justifications have been submitted, not if they wish to be taken seriously.

Shameless hypocrisy is very much in style these days.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #154 on: August 01, 2018, 05:31:47 pm »
Zero tolerance means zero tolerance. It's really not all that complicated. You either employ it for certain classes of behavior or you don't. The Astros do not have zero tolerance for domestic violence, obviously. Reasonable people can believe that approach is defensible. But people cannot argue that zero tolerance need not apply if the player was playing for another organization when he beat his wife or that zero tolerance does not *necessarily* mean that ties must be cut with the offending player or whatever other bizarre justifications have been submitted, not if they wish to be taken seriously.

Shameless hypocrisy is very much in style these days.

When our oldest son first started going to High School here in our 'burg, we were told by the school counselor and Principle in an all parents meeting that they had a very strict zero tolerance bullying policy.  Fast forward to my son being in an English class and suffering intense bullying from kids in class that were all on the JV football team. The football program at this school (along with the band program) were held in high regard. My son told his teacher he was facing abuse, she ignored him. He then told us and we contacted the school. We were told they would "monitor" the situation. Weeks later my son tells us the bullying was getting worse, not better. We then get a message we needed to meet with the VIce Principle.  In said meeting, he told us that all the kids involved swore my son instigated all the situation and they were just protecting themselves.  "Ahum, so let me get this straight... five football players were afraid of a skinny little freshman kid? What did they say my son was doing to them?" I asked. Well, he said nothing other than to just say they investigated it and nothing would be done. We asked to speak to the teacher, we were refused.

Come to find out the kids were all protected by the coach who told them what to say when asked about it. The teacher was intimidated by the coach as well because he didn't want to lose these players. So my son was moved to a different English class and no more incidents.

I got a really good definition of "Zero Tolerance" right then and there.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #155 on: August 01, 2018, 06:06:33 pm »
....Come to find out the kids were all protected by the coach who told them what to say when asked about it. The teacher was intimidated by the coach as well because he didn't want to lose these players. So my son was moved to a different English class and no more incidents.

I got a really good definition of "Zero Tolerance" right then and there.
Glad your son could be transferred to another class, and that the new teacher was not intimidated.  Was the other teacher older than his 1st English teacher?
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #156 on: August 01, 2018, 06:43:51 pm »
When our oldest son first started going to High School here in our 'burg, we were told by the school counselor and Principle in an all parents meeting that they had a very strict zero tolerance bullying policy.  Fast forward to my son being in an English class and suffering intense bullying from kids in class that were all on the JV football team. The football program at this school (along with the band program) were held in high regard. My son told his teacher he was facing abuse, she ignored him. He then told us and we contacted the school. We were told they would "monitor" the situation. Weeks later my son tells us the bullying was getting worse, not better. We then get a message we needed to meet with the VIce Principle.  In said meeting, he told us that all the kids involved swore my son instigated all the situation and they were just protecting themselves.  "Ahum, so let me get this straight... five football players were afraid of a skinny little freshman kid? What did they say my son was doing to them?" I asked. Well, he said nothing other than to just say they investigated it and nothing would be done. We asked to speak to the teacher, we were refused.

Come to find out the kids were all protected by the coach who told them what to say when asked about it. The teacher was intimidated by the coach as well because he didn't want to lose these players. So my son was moved to a different English class and no more incidents.

I got a really good definition of "Zero Tolerance" right then and there.

Indeed. Veering a bit off topic here but this kills me because my son will probably be on the receiving end of this shit in a few years. His elementary school has been great at dealing with the bullying he’s received so far, but they also don’t have the same assets and reputations to protect at the elementary level. With (currently) a non-zero chance that my son will be 4ft tall or shorter as an adult, once he gets to high school I dread the day that it’s ever his word against a football player’s.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #157 on: August 01, 2018, 07:02:29 pm »
Does a zero-tolerance policy for bullying mean the kids will be expelled from a school, or does it mean that if there is bullying, the school is going to punish the kids according to whatever the school policy is rather than make an exception for them because the football coach is protecting them?

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #158 on: August 01, 2018, 07:28:52 pm »
Would like to steer this back to actual baseball for a moment. So when Osuna gets activated on Sunday, who is sent down/released/traded?? Will Harris??


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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #159 on: August 01, 2018, 07:40:45 pm »
Would like to steer this back to actual baseball for a moment. So when Osuna gets activated on Sunday, who is sent down/released/traded?? Will Harris??


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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #160 on: August 01, 2018, 08:12:35 pm »
Probably someone who actually doesn't beat women.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #161 on: August 01, 2018, 09:28:53 pm »
Would like to steer this back to actual baseball for a moment. So when Osuna gets activated on Sunday, who is sent down/released/traded?? Will Harris??


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Going down the list

Mchugh, peacock, and rondon are obvious.

Tony sipp is the only lefty and has been good so he stays.

Joe Smith has the contract and has been pitching better lately, he stays.

That leaves Harris and devo. Both have struggled lately and while I think devo is the better pitcher, I dont think harris can be sent down without risking waivers. It's a tough call.

I dont think I'm leaving anyone off the list right?

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #162 on: August 01, 2018, 09:41:09 pm »
Glad your son could be transferred to another class, and that the new teacher was not intimidated.  Was the other teacher older than his 1st English teacher?

*DING, DING, DING*

Nailed it.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #163 on: August 01, 2018, 09:46:56 pm »
Does a zero-tolerance policy for bullying mean the kids will be expelled from a school, or does it mean that if there is bullying, the school is going to punish the kids according to whatever the school policy is rather than make an exception for them because the football coach is protecting them?

In our instance, we were told kids get transferred to the High School for troubled teens. If they maintain a clean record, they would be considered for reinstatement to their prior school. Parents were also very vocal about protecting their kids at all cost from getting thrown out and sent to said school. They became part of the problem why "zero tolerance" meant nothing, or at least lack any sort of teeth.

But it's a cool thing to say at parent orientation for freshmen. Very cool.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #164 on: August 01, 2018, 10:22:29 pm »
But it's a cool thing to say at parent orientation for freshmen. Very cool.

Mere words, unfortunately.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #165 on: August 02, 2018, 10:33:05 am »
*DING, DING, DING*

Nailed it.
Noe, it is pervasive and affects all ages.

I know about a violent child that has already been transferred from at least one school and two classes.  The parents are separated and the Mom is apparently having to transition to being a single Mom, w/ all the stress involved.  She is numb.  That child is now a source of concern for other kindergarten parents in the new school.  This is the last chance for the child.  I don't know if anyone is trying to find out why the child is acting out.  Children - like most of us men - don't know what to do with our anger.

Decades ago, I  had to move my family because of a job change - it was during my son's Jr year in hs.  I hated making him start fresh as a senior in a new school.  It worked!  It was not until after the move, that he shared that he had been being bullied at school as a junior!  He did not have weekends "off" b/c at least one of the bullies attended the same church we did.  He needed what I hated to give him - a fresh start.  The friends from the new school are bothers today; their friendships have endured.  I had no idea. 

PS: Our son was small for his age, so he was being bullied in grade school.  Some Judo (throwing) lessons and much practice eventually gave him the courage to face down the bully.  He would practice by tossing Mom onto the couch.  He's got a great Mom!

PSS: Aside of the ethics involved, the Osuna trade has surely opened some helpful discussion about abuse, especially the impact on the youngest victims.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 10:35:23 am by Snuffy »
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #166 on: August 03, 2018, 12:54:55 am »
This reply probably belongs in "Beer and Queso" instead of here, but since domestic violence is now a topic for baseball related activity, it's probably okay.

Violence Against Women in Mexico

I am an American of Mexican decent. I grew up in second ward, a predominantly Mexican-American community. All the great things of being of Mexican decent were certainly celebrated in my community growing up. The blind-eye in our community was exactly the serious amount of domestic violence women suffered from Men still prone to cultural morays learned in Mexico (Machismo). Women wanting to learn to drive, to have a voice, to opine... they were the most victimized. I know because my aunt was a victim for many years at the hand of an uncle I hated and never wanted to be around, even though I was forced to at a family get together. How could I be around a man who beat his wife severely as he did. How come this was covered up or things said like "well, she asked for it" (by her attitude, her independence, her ability to drive herself to go shopping, you name it, they were pointed out as reasons she was "asking for it"). My uncle was macho... very macho. Ask my cousin, who also learned to fear his Dad from the fist to the face and slamming against a wall so hard, he left dents on the wall. My cousin was only 10 years old when he started to get violently abused. I was sickened, even as a young boy, at knowing about all this because I grew up in a loving home with a Dad who wasn't violent, but at the same time knew how to use a booming voice to let everyone know to walk on egg-shells for a while... Dad's not happy. But my Dad was a kind man, very giving and he never raised a fist to anyone, not children, not my Mom, not anyone.  My uncle, however, was a different matter altogether. I remember the day one of my sisters ran out of our house to said uncle's house to tell him I was yelling mean things at her (I was). He rushed to our house because my mom and dad were out and only the kids were in the house. My uncle slammed the door open and found me in the den area. He approached me with his fist clenched. I knew I was in for the same type of beating my cousin suffered. I was going to get punched in the face... punched hard. He yelled at me "So you think  you're a tough guy, huh? How about picking on someone like me instead of your younger sister!" But right then my oldest sister stood between him and me, I was not standing up to him, I was covering my face trying to shield myself from the hard punches to come. My sister told my uncle to leave our house... emphatically.  I was really scared now because my uncle had no qualms beating on women either. But for some reason, it worked... he laughed, turned around and left our house. She asked me if I was alright and through my tears I told her I was fine... but inside I was a nervous wreck. My youngest sister came and hugged me and told me she was sorry she went to his house... she wasn't thinking straight and she regretted he even responded.

I hated this man.

Cultural-Specific Gender Ideology and Wife Abuse in Mexican-Descent Families

As much as you might not like hearing this, but culture plays a huge role for Men from Mexican decent when it comes to domestic abuse. I have not been surprised when I hear older Mexican men consul younger men about how to "control your wife". Much of that consultation centers around "golpear la mujer". Translated, "hit her so she can learn never to do that again", whatever the "that" may be that insulted the machismo of the Man of the house. It becomes ingrained into most Mexican young men and they then pass it on to other young men they may have an influence on. Have I heard it as recently as this year, for instance? Yes, I have. I played in the volleyball tournament with some really great young men who played outstanding volleyball. Two of them were American males of Mexican decent (first generation). They told me, for whatever reason, of how an uncle or grandfather told them to always remember to "golpear la mujer" when they needed it. I told them if I ever heard of them doing such a thing, I'd be the first to beating the living shit out of them and then also turn them into the police. They understood, but they also said it was hard to tell those men who gave them said advice that they were full of shit. They had to respect their elders (culturally), even if it was wrong and not something they even remotely wanted to do. My cousin, who suffered abusive violence for all his young life into his teens... when he got married and raised his own family, little did I know (at the time) he would be an abuser himself. I witnessed it when one day I was visiting with him and we were both in the couch watching a game. His young son passed in front of us blocking our view of the game (Rockets game). My cousin raised his leg and caught his son with his foot right in the chest and flung him clearly across the room. He yelled at him "Stop running around in here, we're busy watching the game!". His son was hurt, both physically and emotionally from the trauma my cousin just inflicted. I was mad and told my cousin to step outside with me for a minute. He didn't think I was serious so he said ok, just to find out what was bothering me. I grabbed him by the neck and said "If I ever see you touch that boy like that again, I will not hesitate to hurt you... hurt you badly too". He smiled and told me to relax, it was okay. I was not okay, but as the years went on, my cousin... by the grace of God... got help and became a very loving father to his family. The oldest son... it took years to repair the damage my cousin inflicted but they did. The youngest boys were never aware of "that" Dad, they love him and admire him for being so good to them. When I visited that family several years ago in Heyward, CA, they were all very proud of their old man, including the oldest son. I had a chance to sit with my cousin and just talk and while we never touched on the subject of violence and abuse, it was on the periphery of everything we said to each other. He told me he thanked God and family that he was able, with their support and love, to become a changed man. I knew it too, it was evident I was not talking to same man who at his young married life was not a good guy at all.

My uncle? I don't know if we've ever gotten on good terms like I did with his son, my cousin. I knew too much about his abusive and unrepentant self for many years. He now lives in Chicago, living out his retirement years with his other kids near him and my aunt. Yes, she stayed with him for over 50 years. My aunt and I got along really well. I loved her spirit of independence and how she influenced my sisters and other younger Mexican-American females in our small community to take charge of their lives and seek professional jobs and even go to college. My aunt was born and raised in California. She was a very different Mexican-American. She drove her own car, went to college, was a really great speaker at community rallys and such. But she married the wrong guy. A Mexican man who immigrated from Northern Mexico, very much the training ground for machismo. My uncle... what a piece of work he was. He is my mother's older brother. He fancied himself to James Dean or Sal Mineo and that sort of attracted my aunt to him. It did not take long after their marriage that he was more the Dr. Jeckyll - Mr Hyde type. Alot more Mr. Hyde though, a whole lot more. One incident I remember the most was the day my little cousin came running to our house from his (we all lived within blocks of each other) to tell us his Mom and Dad were fighting. My Dad jumped off his favorite chair and as bad timing would have it, so did I from the floor near his feet as he and I were watching a western on television. My Mom followed us out the door. I don't know why my Dad did not notice that I was right in stride with him, probably because he was too focused on what he might have to do since he knew what my uncle was capable of doing to my aunt with his heavy fist. When we arrived, we heard a cry from the laundry room and when we went into that room, we saw my aunt on the floor beneath the old style clothes washer... the kind that had a pair of rollers at the top of a very large spin cycle tub. She was bruised in the face from the violence my uncle inflicted on her. I was shocked and let out a cry. It was then my father realized I had come along to help him but he didn't want me involved. "Go home and don't tell anyone what you saw... do you hear me... no one!" "But Dad...." "No buts, let me handle it.... you should not have followed me... now go home!"

The next few days I never left the house to go do what I normally did... go to the park and play pickle with my baseball loving friends or ride my bike with them. I feared my favorite aunt had died that night. She didn't, but I didn't get to see her until many weeks later. When I did, I hugged her and said "I'm so glad to see you!". She was surprised and a little concerned I was hugging her so tightly. "Are you okay?" she asked me. "Ah... yes" and then I hugged her again. She didn't know I was there in the immediate aftermath of the beating my uncle gave her. I don't know to this day if she knew. She just smiled at me and said she was glad to see me too. But many years later while traveling to Chicago for some business, my aunt picked me up at the airport. My Mom called her and told her I would be in Chicago for a week and perhaps I would like to stay with her and my uncle while there. I didn't know about these plans, but was so happy to see her at the airport waiting as I walked towards the baggage claim. "You're staying with us mijo. I have a guest room for you." I resisted at first but then thought it might be nice to get home cooking for a week. It late that night while drinking coffee with my aunt that my uncle walked into the kitchen. I had not seen him all night as he was visiting with some friends in town as well. When he walked in, he gave a shout "NOAH!" (it's what he always called me). I raised my hand to shake his and he slapped it away and said "Come on!" while hugging me. My arms were down while he hugged me and it was apparent I did not want to return the affection. My aunt noticed.

"He's a different man. He's changed alot." This is what my aunt could not wait to tell me after my uncle said he was going to bed and we were welcome to keep talking and drinking coffee all we wanted. I didn't answer my aunt, I just listened. I found it hard to excuse my uncle for all those years of his behavior. Nothing could change my mind, or so I thought. Now many years later and my uncle nearing his last days here on earth, I still don't know how I feel about him. My aunt is a saint for loving him through all of this abuse. I could not. I could not understand how my Dad tried to make my uncle understand that this behavior was wrong and he needed to change. I sometimes fantasized about the day I would be big enough and strong enough to just find my uncle one day and give him a severe beating that I thought was justified. That feeling went away soon enough but I still have a hard time seeing my uncle in anything other that abusive man that I grew up with. That's on me to work out for myself, even to eventually say in an audible way "I forgive you" to the memory of that man. I'm getting closer to it each day. But it's not easy.

Not even my aunt stroking my hair at my age and loving me like as if I was a little boy all over again worked magic to destroy the memory. But one day.

One day.

Noe, I appreciate you sharing your experiences and insight about this issue. This all brings backs some uncomfortable memories of the abuse I saw my mother take from her husband when I was growing. Growing up in a violent household, you tend to compartmentalize your life and move on the best you can. Sometimes, though, the terror and dread all comes back. Anyway, the cultural aspect of Osuna's behavior is something I had not considered. Thank you.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #167 on: August 03, 2018, 02:11:10 pm »
Thank you, The Third Man, for being the Third Man (with Noe and Texifornia) by adding part of your story, making this thread more helpful to others.  No wife or child should be subjected to what you guys have seen and experienced.  Thank you for sharing.  It personalizes a topic that is verboten - we want to ignore it, until we can't. 
Quote
As Verlander aptly put it: "I haven't really paid attention to (Osuna's legal case), for obvious reasons - it wasn't really in my life."

This insightful article about Steve Job's daughter highlights other forms of abuse.  While the article about Tom Brady’s “girlly girl” shows a child that appears to be well-loved. 

I worked with youth for over a decade and got a chance to begin learning about parenting through them.  Words can also be painful and leave hidden wounds that last as long if not longer than fists.  This topic challenges me as a husband, dad, and grandfather, in terms of how I treat the ones I love most, the ones closest to me - especially when angry.  The learning never stops.  Each child is different; and the relationship changes as our children become adults.  It's an also investment of time that can bring joy now and later.  Someday, I may need them to care for me. 

Can't imagine how it would feel for the abused to have to provide care for their abuser.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 05:41:31 pm by Snuffy »
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #169 on: August 05, 2018, 12:12:16 pm »
Osuna activated.  McCullers to the DL.
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Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #170 on: August 05, 2018, 03:24:44 pm »
Sporting News reported that the Astros had a clubhouse meeting yesterday concerning Osuna. Crane and Luhnow attended. If the results of the game are any indication, the reception was positive.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #172 on: August 05, 2018, 09:44:48 pm »
Full transcript of press questions for Osuna and Luhnow.

I think Luhnow has a lot of confidence in his PR ability to try and pull this off. It's pretty clear he didn't give the players a veto beforehand.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #173 on: August 06, 2018, 07:13:00 am »
Full transcript of press questions for Osuna and Luhnow.

I think Luhnow has a lot of confidence in his PR ability to try and pull this off. It's pretty clear he didn't give the players a veto beforehand.

PR ability will get him through the initial criticism. I admire the frank public statement. The organization welcomes scrutiny and criticism, and Osuna’s future behavior will determine if the decisions were successes or failures. I am a nobody, of course, but I would have handled it no differently.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #174 on: August 06, 2018, 09:50:00 am »
Some sportscaster in San Antonio ripped the astros for their decision.  So, there are many wanting osuna to fail.  I, personally, want him to succeed of the field and then on the field.  How great of an organization we love than one that can teach a young man a better way to live his life.  Isn't that better than tossing him in the street to not learn anything?  I don't know what osuna will do but that is what I'd like.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #175 on: August 06, 2018, 09:55:04 am »
Some sportscaster in San Antonio ripped the astros for their decision.  So, there are many wanting osuna to fail.  I, personally, want him to succeed of the field and then on the field.  How great of an organization we love than one that can teach a young man a better way to live his life.  Isn't that better than tossing him in the street to not learn anything?  I don't know what osuna will do but that is what I'd like.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #176 on: August 06, 2018, 10:01:09 am »
Some sportscaster in San Antonio ripped the astros for their decision.  So, there are many wanting osuna to fail.  I, personally, want him to succeed of the field and then on the field.  How great of an organization we love than one that can teach a young man a better way to live his life.  Isn't that better than tossing him in the street to not learn anything?  I don't know what osuna will do but that is what I'd like.

I think this is like a lot of things in life. People are fine giving second chances, and I believe genuinely forgiving, but when it’s in their own back yard, aren’t quite so eager. I think the Astros are the kind of club and Houston the kind of place where one really can change for the better. Of course if he doesn’t, there will be no shortage of “I told you so”.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #177 on: August 06, 2018, 12:18:10 pm »
This is probably Cabrera'd (although I couldn't find it in the thread), but I did read a pretty interesting article about Osuna, and the history of the Astros WRT domestic violence, in the dead-tree San Antonio Express-News last Sunday (not yesterday). I've googled and I can't seem to find it.

I'm pretty sure it was written by Brian T. Smith and almost certainly it appeared in the Chronicle (which is owned by Hearst, same as SA paper).

Apparently, the Astros (via Astros wives') had a relationship with a battered women's shelter when McLane was owner. This ended when Crane decided to focus Astros charitable giving on inner-city youth.

They also talked with the executive VP for a battered women's charity (wish I could remember the name) and she said that zero tolerance policies can unintentionally provoke greater abuse (since the abuser has nothing to lose once they've crossed the line once), and they oppose zero tolerance as an organization.

The article also mentioned past Astro domestic violence incidents like Lugo and Cesar Cedeño. It was a really good read-wish I could find it.


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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #178 on: August 06, 2018, 12:20:18 pm »
This is probably Cabrera'd (although I couldn't find it in the thread), but I did read a pretty interesting article about Osuna, and the history of the Astros WRT domestic violence, in the dead-tree San Antonio Express-News last Sunday (not yesterday). I've googled and I can't seem to find it.

I'm pretty sure it was written by Brian T. Smith and almost certainly it appeared in the Chronicle (which is owned by Hearst, same as SA paper).

Apparently, the Astros (via Astros wives') had a relationship with a battered women's shelter when McLane was owner. This ended when Crane decided to focus Astros charitable giving on inner-city youth.

They also talked with the executive VP for a battered women's charity (wish I could remember the name) and she said that zero tolerance policies can unintentionally provoke greater abuse (since the abuser has nothing to lose once they've crossed the line once), and they oppose zero tolerance as an organization.

The article also mentioned past Astro domestic violence incidents like Lugo and Cesar Cedeño. It was a really good read-wish I could find it.

The Astros Wives previously worked with Houston Area Women's Shelter.  Footer has been tweeting links to their donation page ever since the Osuna trade went down
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #179 on: August 06, 2018, 02:12:48 pm »
This is probably Cabrera'd (although I couldn't find it in the thread), but I did read a pretty interesting article about Osuna, and the history of the Astros WRT domestic violence, in the dead-tree San Antonio Express-News last Sunday (not yesterday). I've googled and I can't seem to find it.

I'm pretty sure it was written by Brian T. Smith and almost certainly it appeared in the Chronicle (which is owned by Hearst, same as SA paper).

Apparently, the Astros (via Astros wives') had a relationship with a battered women's shelter when McLane was owner. This ended when Crane decided to focus Astros charitable giving on inner-city youth.

They also talked with the executive VP for a battered women's charity (wish I could remember the name) and she said that zero tolerance policies can unintentionally provoke greater abuse (since the abuser has nothing to lose once they've crossed the line once), and they oppose zero tolerance as an organization.

The article also mentioned past Astro domestic violence incidents like Lugo and Cesar Cedeño. It was a really good read-wish I could find it.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #180 on: August 06, 2018, 02:35:32 pm »
Try Harder.

I'm just sad you missed out on this great opportunity to use one of the internet's greatest tools, LMGTFY.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #181 on: August 06, 2018, 02:36:41 pm »
The Astros Wives previously worked with Houston Area Women's Shelter.  Footer has been tweeting links to their donation page ever since the Osuna trade went down

This would be a great time for the club to announce they are working with that women's shelter again.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #182 on: August 06, 2018, 02:44:34 pm »
I'm just sad you missed out on this great opportunity to use one of the internet's greatest tools, LMGTFY.

Damn.  Forgot about that one.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #183 on: August 06, 2018, 03:47:38 pm »
You know, typically my interactions with robots do work out better than my interactions with humans. Kudos to @OutlawScotty for bucking that trend!
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #184 on: August 06, 2018, 07:12:34 pm »
You know, typically my interactions with robots do work out better than my interactions with humans. Kudos to @OutlawScotty for bucking that trend!

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #185 on: August 09, 2018, 07:52:03 am »
This would be a great time for the club to announce they are working with that women's shelter again.

I disagree.  Now is  the worst time because it will not look genuine.  It will look like a photo op and spin.  If they feel the need to do something, I think it should be quiet and if announced, it should come from the shelter.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #186 on: August 09, 2018, 08:13:01 am »
I disagree.  Now is  the worst time because it will not look genuine.  It will look like a photo op and spin.  If they feel the need to do something, I think it should be quiet and if announced, it should come from the shelter.

I totally agree. Do it quietly , but do it in a big way. This should not be used for PR or photo ops until much later.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #187 on: August 09, 2018, 10:44:53 am »
I totally agree. Do it quietly , but do it in a big way. This should not be used for PR or photo ops until much later.

Sounds like there are good conversations happening right now. 

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/sports/astros/article/Astros-officials-to-meet-with-representatives-of-13142821.php
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #188 on: August 09, 2018, 11:40:16 am »
Sounds like there are good conversations happening right now. 

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/sports/astros/article/Astros-officials-to-meet-with-representatives-of-13142821.php

Wasn't there a mention of that in the initial announcement or the immediate fallout?

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #189 on: August 09, 2018, 02:13:22 pm »
Sounds like there are good conversations happening right now. 

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/sports/astros/article/Astros-officials-to-meet-with-representatives-of-13142821.php

It looks like things are being done the right way and for what appears to be the right reasons.  I found it really interesting the comments about DV programs not being a fan of zero tolerance policies. 
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #190 on: August 09, 2018, 04:13:40 pm »
If the Osuna acquisition caused any clubhouse difficulties, it is not apparent in the team's performance on the road trip.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #191 on: August 21, 2018, 12:10:21 pm »
Hinch apparently just announced Osuna will be the regular closer.

When on the off chance the Astros are leading late in the game of course.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #192 on: August 21, 2018, 06:09:23 pm »
Hinch apparently just announced Osuna will be the regular closer.

When on the off chance the Astros are leading late in the game of course.
That’s shitty for Rondon. He stepped up and did a fantastic job for four months. Now he has a little rough patch, where he blows a couple of one-run leads, and his manager anoints the new guy, who hasn’t exactly been lights-out recently either.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #193 on: August 21, 2018, 06:47:51 pm »
That’s shitty for Rondon. He stepped up and did a fantastic job for four months. Now he has a little rough patch, where he blows a couple of one-run leads, and his manager anoints the new guy, who hasn’t exactly been lights-out recently either.
Rondon has been good overall but if you are going to close, then you have to be able to seal the deal practically every time you go out. If you don’t, you can’t expect to stay in the role. For the season Rondon has converted only 13 of 18 save opportunities. That is barely over 70% and that isn’t good enough to be honest. I’m not knocking Rondon, just stating a fact. Osuna now gets his chance. This is why Luhnow traded for him. If he shits the bed tonight Rondon will probably get another shot. Hopefully someone takes charge and proves they can shut the door almost every time out.


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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #194 on: August 21, 2018, 07:08:13 pm »
That’s shitty for Rondon. He stepped up and did a fantastic job for four months. Now he has a little rough patch, where he blows a couple of one-run leads, and his manager anoints the new guy, who hasn’t exactly been lights-out recently either.

Díaz,  the Seattle closer,  is 21 for his last 22--- in retiring Houston Astros.  It may be 22 for 23 now.

So there's a level of bullpen performance in the competition that the Astros haven't sniffed this season.

Rondon is a gamer,  but I don't blame them for trying Osuna.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #195 on: August 21, 2018, 07:13:04 pm »
That’s shitty for Rondon. He stepped up and did a fantastic job for four months. Now he has a little rough patch, where he blows a couple of one-run leads, and his manager anoints the new guy, who hasn’t exactly been lights-out recently either.
Sucks for rondon, especially as he's had this happen before. With that said, you traded for osuna to be the closer. It was only a matter of time before he was made the closer. There is no longer any margin for error and I think rondon understands this.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #196 on: August 21, 2018, 11:52:38 pm »
Díaz,  the Seattle closer,  is 21 for his last 22--- in retiring Houston Astros.  It may be 22 for 23 now.

So there's a level of bullpen performance in the competition that the Astros haven't sniffed this season.

Rondon is a gamer,  but I don't blame them for trying Osuna.
Diaz and Treinen are having ungodly seasons. It is not fair to judge Rondon against that standard.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #197 on: August 21, 2018, 11:59:00 pm »
Rondon has been good overall but if you are going to close, then you have to be able to seal the deal practically every time you go out. If you don’t, you can’t expect to stay in the role. For the season Rondon has converted only 13 of 18 save opportunities. That is barely over 70% and that isn’t good enough to be honest. I’m not knocking Rondon, just stating a fact. Osuna now gets his chance. This is why Luhnow traded for him. If he shits the bed tonight Rondon will probably get another shot. Hopefully someone takes charge and proves they can shut the door almost every time out.


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Osuna led the majors last year with 10 Blown Saves, as the Jays' full-time Closer. Judging Rondon on Save percentage doesn't hold water, because he started the year as a setup man - where you don't get to stay in for the Save, but you do get charged with a Blown Save, if, say, you come in in the 6th inning with no outs and the tying run on 3rd and give up a sac fly.

But I admit to being biased in favor of the humble-seeming guy who's been a savior when they badly needed it and against the guy who was suspended for half a season for beating a woman.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 12:04:33 am by Reuben »
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #198 on: August 22, 2018, 12:11:33 am »
But I admit to being biased in favor of the humble-seeming guy who's been a savior when they badly needed it and against the guy who was suspended for half a season for beating a woman.

And who doesn't appear to have an out pitch. Which is kind of weird, when you think about it, for a guy who's famous for punching people out.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #199 on: August 22, 2018, 09:31:45 am »
That’s shitty for Rondon. He stepped up and did a fantastic job for four months. Now he has a little rough patch, where he blows a couple of one-run leads, and his manager anoints the new guy, who hasn’t exactly been lights-out recently either.

No. Get over yourself. Hinch is making baseball decisions, which you are not qualified to do. If his name were not Osuna, you would STFU. Do it anyway.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #200 on: August 22, 2018, 09:40:55 am »
Osuna led the majors last year with 10 Blown Saves, as the Jays' full-time Closer. Judging Rondon on Save percentage doesn't hold water, because he started the year as a setup man - where you don't get to stay in for the Save, but you do get charged with a Blown Save, if, say, you come in in the 6th inning with no outs and the tying run on 3rd and give up a sac fly.

Rondon has five blown saves this year.  In four of them, he blew them in the 9th, and the Astros lost three of those games.  Two were against the A's, one against Seattle.  Only once did Rondon blow a save as you describe...he came in the 7th inning and gave up the tying run, after which the Astros scored four runs the next inning and he got the win.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #201 on: August 22, 2018, 10:03:04 am »
Osuna led the majors last year with 10 Blown Saves, as the Jays' full-time Closer. Judging Rondon on Save percentage doesn't hold water, because he started the year as a setup man - where you don't get to stay in for the Save, but you do get charged with a Blown Save, if, say, you come in in the 6th inning with no outs and the tying run on 3rd and give up a sac fly.

But I admit to being biased in favor of the humble-seeming guy who's been a savior when they badly needed it and against the guy who was suspended for half a season for beating a woman.

Fuck off. You made your opinion clear weeks ago. You do not know what happened. No one does. STFU about this.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #202 on: August 22, 2018, 05:52:38 pm »
Rondon has five blown saves this year.  In four of them, he blew them in the 9th, and the Astros lost three of those games.  Two were against the A's, one against Seattle.  Only once did Rondon blow a save as you describe...he came in the 7th inning and gave up the tying run, after which the Astros scored four runs the next inning and he got the win.
Thank you. These are pertinent facts that refute some of my argument. I will concede that Rondon's 14 out of 18 legitimate Save opps is not great.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #203 on: August 22, 2018, 05:59:33 pm »
Fuck off. You made your opinion clear weeks ago. You do not know what happened. No one does. STFU about this.
I know that there is a very high likelihood that he committed a serious act of violence against his girlfriend. Do you think Manfred would have decided on a 75-game suspension if nothing serious happened? Do you think Osuna would have accepted the suspension, and the resulting loss of $2-3 million in salary, if nothing serious happened?

I'm sorry my opinion on this matter upsets you so much. I don't see anyone else getting too upset about it.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #204 on: August 22, 2018, 07:36:39 pm »
I know that there is a very high likelihood that he committed a serious act of violence against his girlfriend. Do you think Manfred would have decided on a 75-game suspension if nothing serious happened? Do you think Osuna would have accepted the suspension, and the resulting loss of $2-3 million in salary, if nothing serious happened?

I'm sorry my opinion on this matter upsets you so much. I don't see anyone else getting too upset about it.
Well, couple of things. 1 even if I was him and innocent, I would not have appealed the 75 games because, he already wasnt playing and wasn't going to get back on the field either way. 2 Accepting the suspension and simply not appealing the suspension are two different things. 3 what he is charged with is simple assault, which is the lowest form of assault in Canada, this could mean he pushed her or it could mean that he yelled mean things at, neither are ok but neither of those seem to me to be him "beating" his girlfriend. 3 there is absolutely zero information available to us to know what happened. 4 the court lifted his restraining order so that he could go to her brother's graduation in mexico. If you're the judge, are you letting someone who you think "beat" his girlfriend in her presence? Or if you were her family, would you allow someone so hienous to be around you're daughter/sister.

Aside from all that, we've been through all this already. We all have are thoughts on record and it really doesnt accomplish anything to go through it again. Even if he is guilty, he has served his suspension and now wether hes the closer or not is just about baseball.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #205 on: August 22, 2018, 08:08:36 pm »
I know that there is a very high likelihood that he committed a serious act of violence against his girlfriend. Do you think Manfred would have decided on a 75-game suspension if nothing serious happened? Do you think Osuna would have accepted the suspension, and the resulting loss of $2-3 million in salary, if nothing serious happened?

I'm sorry my opinion on this matter upsets you so much. I don't see anyone else getting too upset about it.

See doyce’s post below yours. You do not know anything.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #206 on: August 28, 2018, 10:24:46 pm »
Footer has been tweeting links to their donation page ever since the Osuna trade went down

And continues to do so. Good for her.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #207 on: August 29, 2018, 09:33:16 am »
Fuck off. You made your opinion clear weeks ago. You do not know what happened. No one does. STFU about this.

You should get a 75 day suspension from posting for this type of unnecessary, hostile bullshit JimR.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #208 on: August 29, 2018, 10:15:43 am »
You should get a 75 day suspension from posting for this type of unnecessary, hostile bullshit JimR.

I thought we'd run you off. Fuck off. Go away. Stay away.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #209 on: August 29, 2018, 11:22:39 am »
I thought we'd run you off. Fuck off. Go away. Stay away.
I genuinely missed you Mr. Happy, glad to see that you are alive and well.
Where the fuck is Toro?

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #210 on: August 29, 2018, 11:50:00 am »
You should get a 75 day suspension from posting for this type of unnecessary, hostile bullshit JimR.

Go fuck yourself.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #211 on: August 29, 2018, 06:21:07 pm »
I genuinely missed you Mr. Happy, glad to see that you are alive and well.
Nice to see you drop in. Go away again any time.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #212 on: August 29, 2018, 07:53:20 pm »
You should get a 75 day suspension from posting for this type of unnecessary, hostile bullshit JimR.

Seriously. Go the fuck away. Your stupidfuck takes aren't welcome here.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #213 on: August 30, 2018, 08:13:57 am »
You should get a 75 day suspension from posting for this type of unnecessary, hostile bullshit JimR.

U FOO!

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #214 on: August 30, 2018, 09:01:27 am »
You should get a 75 day suspension from posting for this type of unnecessary, hostile bullshit JimR.

"Bring it strong or don't bring it at all" is one of the hallmark, foundational tenants that this (and the predecessor astrosconnection.com) were built on.  This was never meant to be a place for the queasy or weak-kneed.
Another trenchant comment by a jealous lesser intellect.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #215 on: August 30, 2018, 10:03:15 am »
an update on the Osuna issue. I'm not taking a position because I don't know what I don't know but this is worth reading.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/bob-nightengale/2018/08/29/roberto-osuna-astros-domestic-violence-justin-verlander/1125119002/

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #216 on: August 30, 2018, 10:43:31 am »
Quote
“All I’ve got to say is let all of this sort out and see if people are talking, and how they’re talking in public,’’ All-Star Game MVP Alex Bregman said. “I think once the truth comes out, a lot of people are going to eat their words. ... He’s been an unbelievable teammate, and a great guy.’’

Veteran starter Dallas Keuchel says perhaps he judged Osuna too quickly.

“You’ve got to really step back and remove yourself from the situation,’’ Keuchel said, “until everything comes out and the case is closed. I had to tell myself that as well. It’s not easy hearing about it, but you’ve got to be careful not to make a judgment until something comes out."

Said veteran pitcher Charlie Morton: “This group, in particular, cares a lot about the character in this clubhouse. People that are in this clubhouse are counting on people being good people. So far, he hasn’t demonstrated to the contrary. He’s been great.’’
Boom!

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #217 on: September 04, 2018, 11:32:55 am »
Optics not good here for the Astros, but I understand their policy on non-game-related signs:

The Houston Astros booted a customer from Minute Maid Park stadium during a game for holding up a sign that read, “Houston Domestic Violence Hot Line 713.528.2121,” the ejected fan told ABC Houston station KTRK-TV.

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/houston-astros-fan-allegedly-kicked-stadium-displaying-domestic-150039493--abc-news-topstories.html
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Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #218 on: September 04, 2018, 03:14:34 pm »
Optics not good here for the Astros, but I understand their policy on non-game-related signs:

The Houston Astros booted a customer from Minute Maid Park stadium during a game for holding up a sign that read, “Houston Domestic Violence Hot Line 713.528.2121,” the ejected fan told ABC Houston station KTRK-TV.

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/houston-astros-fan-allegedly-kicked-stadium-displaying-domestic-150039493--abc-news-topstories.html
I can only speak for myself, but the optics don’t bother me at all. This subject has been beat to death.


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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #219 on: September 05, 2018, 12:39:02 pm »
Optics not good here for the Astros, but I understand their policy on non-game-related signs:

The Houston Astros booted a customer from Minute Maid Park stadium during a game for holding up a sign that read, “Houston Domestic Violence Hot Line 713.528.2121,” the ejected fan told ABC Houston station KTRK-TV.

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/houston-astros-fan-allegedly-kicked-stadium-displaying-domestic-150039493--abc-news-topstories.html
The article quotes a statement on astros.com that says,

'“The Astros welcome banners that support teams and their players, so long as they are in good taste. The Houston Astros Baseball Club does not permit signs, posters or banners which are obscene, slanderous or in bad taste. Management reserves the right to remove any sign deemed inappropriate.”'

Which makes me wonder if they asked the guy to put the sign away or hand it over and he refused, or did the security guard just ignore team policy and immediately eject him from the park.

I can only speak for myself, but the optics don’t bother me at all. This subject has been beat to death.


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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #220 on: September 05, 2018, 01:12:12 pm »
Is that supposed to be... a joke?
He's not that clever.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #221 on: September 05, 2018, 01:13:22 pm »
I can only speak for myself, but the optics don’t bother me at all. This subject has been beat to death.


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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #222 on: September 05, 2018, 05:22:05 pm »
Reuben, I have no idea.

And I do not care anymore.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #223 on: September 17, 2018, 06:44:40 pm »
I have a daughter who went to prison, then turned her life around. I am not as inflexible about atonement and redemption as some of you who have claimed the moral high ground. I trust this organization to do the right thing.
Hey Coach. I haven't posted anything in a while but I wanted to say I'm glad to read things turned out alright. I had a first cousin and best friend that worked his way out of prison and now is using his 2nd chance to speak to schools and juvenile homes and share how deep and far he fell and how a 2nd chance changed him forever. He has turned many boys and girls around and led them to God. I really have no strong feelings either way on the Osuna deal to add but I am glad your family has had peace.  Best wishes to you all.

Edited to add: He left N. Bama for Mississippi to do this work. He tells me often that a change of scenery was necessary for his redemption. Old friends, old habits he says. Either way, maybe Osuna's change of scenery will make him a different person, if he did, indeed, do what he has been accused of.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 06:48:46 pm by Jose Cruz III »
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #224 on: September 17, 2018, 06:50:23 pm »
Hey Coach. I haven't posted anything in a while but I wanted to say I'm glad to read things turned out alright. I had a first cousin and best friend that worked his way out of prison and now is using his 2nd chance to speak to schools and juvenile homes and share how deep and far he fell and how a 2nd chance changed him forever. He has turned many boys and girls around and led them to God. I really have no strong feelings either way on the Osuna deal to add but I am glad your family has had peace.  Best wishes to you all.

Thank you. If you want to read her story, it is posted somewhere on OWA. The title is Redemption. Congrats to your cousin. Your family should be proud.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #225 on: September 18, 2018, 07:42:00 am »
Thank you. If you want to read her story, it is posted somewhere on OWA. The title is Redemption. Congrats to your cousin. Your family should be proud.

So good to hear this.  Thanks to you and Jose Cruz III for sharing.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #226 on: September 18, 2018, 10:26:50 am »
Thank you. If you want to read her story, it is posted somewhere on OWA. The title is Redemption. Congrats to your cousin. Your family should be proud.
Thanks. I am very proud of him. Some people will destroy their life and themselves no matter how many chances they are given. But what most people on a moral high don't understand is that most of the people that take advantage of their 2nd chance become better people than they were before they made the bad decisions. And in most cases are better people and do more for others than the people that look down their nose at them. I have read your post on it before. Glad things are still good.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #227 on: September 25, 2018, 01:17:13 pm »
Brian McTaggart  @brianmctaggart 1m ago
We have resolution in the Robert Osuna case. He agrees to peace bond and assault charges are withdrawn.

Austin Staton @AStaton 3m ago
“A peace bond is an order from a criminal court that requires a person to keep the peace and be on good behaviour for a period of time. This essentially means that the person who signs a peace bond must not be charged with any additional criminal offences during its duration.”

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #228 on: September 25, 2018, 01:26:02 pm »
Brian McTaggart  @brianmctaggart 1m ago
We have resolution in the Robert Osuna case. He agrees to peace bond and assault charges are withdrawn.

Austin Staton @AStaton 3m ago
“A peace bond is an order from a criminal court that requires a person to keep the peace and be on good behaviour for a period of time. This essentially means that the person who signs a peace bond must not be charged with any additional criminal offences during its duration.”

Just read that. Thanks, Nate. There was no “savage beating,” as some alleged.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #229 on: September 25, 2018, 01:34:28 pm »
Just read that. Thanks, Nate. There was no “savage beating,” as some alleged.
Just a run of the mill beating. I am glad it's over and hope to see Osuna make the most of his new opportunity but he will always be under scrutiny from those who believe he did something unredeemable. 
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #230 on: September 25, 2018, 01:34:42 pm »
The peace bond is for one year, and the Astros don't go back to Canada until August 30 next year, so assuming there is a requirement that any act that violates the bond must occur in Canadian jurisdiction,  only a monumental fuck up would keep him from putting the legal issues behind him.

As for the familial issues, who knows.  Footer retweeted someone who said that "the complainant has a three-year-old with Roberto Osuna, is currently in Mexico, wants to continue coparenting with him and didn’t want to testify."
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #231 on: September 25, 2018, 02:44:11 pm »
Just a run of the mill beating. I am glad it's over and hope to see Osuna make the most of his new opportunity but he will always be under scrutiny from those who believe he did something unredeemable.

Horseshit. Prosecutors do not dismiss cases involving unredeemable conduct. Fuck your first sentence.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #232 on: September 25, 2018, 02:46:19 pm »
Horseshit. Prosecutors do not dismiss cases involving unredeemable conduct. Fuck your first sentence.
Fuck your inablilty to see clearly.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #233 on: September 25, 2018, 09:52:27 pm »
Horseshit. Prosecutors do not dismiss cases involving unredeemable conduct. Fuck your first sentence.

You have no idea what you're talking about.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #234 on: September 25, 2018, 11:19:14 pm »
Horseshit. Prosecutors do not dismiss cases involving unredeemable conduct. Fuck your first sentence.
Keep telling yourself what you need to, in order to allow yourself to cheer for this guy. His lawyer reaching a peace bond under these circumstances does not prove anything about the matter one way or another, any more than Blasey Ford not filing charges against Kavanaugh when she was 15 years old proves he is innocent.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #235 on: September 26, 2018, 12:05:30 am »
Glad Osuna was granted a peace bond. I'll never cheer for this pinche cabron, but want this in the rearview for the sake of the team.
Don't get how some of you rush to defend this guy. the astros brass have made many amazing decisions since crane took over. Trading for osuna isn't one of them.

And go fuck yourself Jim.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 02:19:34 am by Mr. Appropriate »
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DVauthrin

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #236 on: September 26, 2018, 01:49:44 am »
the astros brass have made many amazing decisions since crane took over. Trading for osuna isn't won of them.

Say what you want about Osuna’s behavior off the field, but from purely a baseball perspective, getting Osuna for Ken Giles and prospects was a coup for Lunhow.  The Astros now have a closer Hinch can feel comfortable using in high stress situations in the playoffs.  Adding him and Pressly at the deadline has really shored up the back end of the bullpen.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 01:51:39 am by DVauthrin »
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #237 on: September 26, 2018, 06:28:55 am »
Keep telling yourself what you need to, in order to allow yourself to cheer for this guy. His lawyer reaching a peace bond under these circumstances does not prove anything about the matter one way or another, any more than Blasey Ford not filing charges against Kavanaugh when she was 15 years old proves he is innocent.

Reuben, I have handles scores of sexual conduct cases as a lawyer. I also twice was a foreman of grand juries. What I learned is to believe no one; investigate. Accusers lie for many different motives. Perps  lie. Past behavior/reputation of both do not matter. One does not know what happened without investigation.

He was charged with simple assault. That alone tells you there was no beating. Even if all the did was shove her, that is wrong and should not be overlooked. Dismissal of the charges tells you the prosecutors did not have sufficient evidence to go to trial or to obtain a conviction. Prosecutors do not simply walk away from cases if they believe they can convict.

I support all the “me too” women who have come forward, but many of the stories are not even sexual harassment under civil law much less a crime. That does not excuse men’s boorish behavior, which should be dealt with and punished every time, and criminal behavior should be convicted IF there is evidence to support a conviction. You have tried and convicted Osuna, and you consider yourself morally superior to the Toronto prosecutors and to me. You purport to know what happened, but you do not know any more than I do. Your rush to judgment is both wrong and unfair. I do not expect you to see this through your idealism. Good for you. I hope Life never reaches into your ivory tower to force you to give a loved one a second chance after inexcusable, indefensible behavior. If you fold your arms and say one strike is out, shame on you.

Yep, I will root for Osuna and am happy the Astros gave him a second chance. I hope he takes full advantage of this opportunity to become a better person. Apparently his significant other thinks he is a good enough person to continue to parent their child with her. As for you, I hope you learn tolerance and someday understand the meaning of due process of law.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #238 on: September 26, 2018, 06:30:50 am »
You have no idea what you're talking about.

I think I do and may have a smidgen more experience in this than you.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #239 on: September 26, 2018, 06:32:55 am »
Glad Osuna was granted a peace bond. I'll never cheer for this pinche cabron, but want this in the rearview for the sake of the team.
Don't get how some of you rush to defend this guy. the astros brass have made many amazing decisions since crane took over. Trading for osuna isn't one of them.

And go fuck yourself Jim.

Nope, don’t think I will. Today is my bday. You can fuck off, however.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #240 on: September 26, 2018, 06:42:13 am »
Nope, don’t think I will. Today is my bday. You can fuck off, however.

You're on fire today Jim, some great posts... and, HBD mate.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #241 on: September 26, 2018, 08:06:15 am »
You're on fire today Jim, some great posts... and, HBD mate.

Thanks, pal.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #242 on: September 26, 2018, 09:27:59 am »
Reuben, I have handles scores of sexual conduct cases as a lawyer. I also twice was a foreman of grand juries. What I learned is to believe no one; investigate. Accusers lie for many different motives. Perps  lie. Past behavior/reputation of both do not matter. One does not know what happened without investigation.

He was charged with simple assault. That alone tells you there was no beating. Even if all the did was shove her, that is wrong and should not be overlooked. Dismissal of the charges tells you the prosecutors did not have sufficient evidence to go to trial or to obtain a conviction. Prosecutors do not simply walk away from cases if they believe they can convict.

I support all the “me too” women who have come forward, but many of the stories are not even sexual harassment under civil law much less a crime. That does not excuse men’s boorish behavior, which should be dealt with and punished every time, and criminal behavior should be convicted IF there is evidence to support a conviction. You have tried and convicted Osuna, and you consider yourself morally superior to the Toronto prosecutors and to me. You purport to know what happened, but you do not know any more than I do. Your rush to judgment is both wrong and unfair. I do not expect you to see this through your idealism. Good for you. I hope Life never reaches into your ivory tower to force you to give a loved one a second chance after inexcusable, indefensible behavior. If you fold your arms and say one strike is out, shame on you.

Yep, I will root for Osuna and am happy the Astros gave him a second chance. I hope he takes full advantage of this opportunity to become a better person. Apparently his significant other thinks he is a good enough person to continue to parent their child with her. As for you, I hope you learn tolerance and someday understand the meaning of due process of law.

Thanks for the reasonable and cogent explanation of your point of view.  Happy Birthday.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #243 on: September 26, 2018, 09:29:13 am »
Yep, I will root for Osuna and am happy the Astros gave him a second chance. I hope he takes full advantage of this opportunity to become a better person. Apparently his significant other thinks he is a good enough person to continue to parent their child with her. As for you, I hope you learn tolerance and someday understand the meaning of due process of law.
I agree with this here. What I don't agree with is that the result of his trial is vindication for his actions. He is fortunate to have money an can afford the best to represent him. I have the feeling that someone who mows yards in Toronto likely would not have had the same legal result. But anyway, I can forgive and get past the past, he seems to have learned a lesson and will be a better person because the arrest forced him to at least be accountable and to step up and do better by his friends and family. I have no problem rooting for the guy. My earlier comment addressed the fact that others will not be able to forgive him and root for his success. And HBD old fart.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #244 on: September 26, 2018, 10:02:03 am »
Thanks for the reasonable and cogent explanation of your point of view.  Happy Birthday.

This.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #245 on: September 26, 2018, 10:06:07 am »
I think I do and may have a smidgen more experience in this than you.

You do not know what happened, first of all. Second, your pronouncement that the judicial outcome is indicative of the severity of the assault is not only wrong but ludicrously tone deaf, especially given the moment we are all living.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #246 on: September 26, 2018, 10:17:16 am »
You do not know what happened, first of all. Second, your pronouncement that the judicial outcome is indicative of the severity of the assault is not only wrong but ludicrously tone deaf, especially given the moment we are all living.

That would be the "guilty until proven innocent" moment.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #247 on: September 26, 2018, 10:27:08 am »
That would be the "guilty until proven innocent" moment.

Just because the victim doesn't want to testify doesn't mean she's not a victim. 
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #248 on: September 26, 2018, 10:29:17 am »
It seems the prosecutors declined to prosecute because the woman declined to participate in the investigation. Maybe that's because she knows nothing happened; maybe that's because she's scared for her life. Most likely, it's somewhere inbetween.

I have trouble squaring Osuna accepting the significant MLB punishment, but at the same time arguing that he's completely innocent.

It also seems weird to me that he made a big deal about being excited to have all the facts come out, but now says he won't talk about it publicly.

This pretty well sums up the uneasiness I (and presumably others) feel about all of this:
https://theathletic.com/548651/2018/09/25/lott-roberto-osunas-peace-bond-hides-facts-he-said-he-wanted-to-come-out/
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #249 on: September 26, 2018, 10:39:57 am »
Just because the victim doesn't want to testify doesn't mean she's not a victim.

Perhaps she was a victim of something but not of a beating. Simple assault. You are a lawyer.  She said more than “I will not testify.” She also said “I do not feel in danger” and “I want him to parent our child.”
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #250 on: September 26, 2018, 10:40:41 am »
You do not know what happened, first of all. Second, your pronouncement that the judicial outcome is indicative of the severity of the assault is not only wrong but ludicrously tone deaf, especially given the moment we are all living.

Nope. I acknowledge your self-proclaimed superior expertise on all subjects discussed on this site, but I have vastly more experience on this topic than do you.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 10:43:16 am by JimR »
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #251 on: September 26, 2018, 11:09:50 am »
Nope. I acknowledge your self-proclaimed superior expertise on all subjects discussed on this site, but I have vastly more experience on this topic than do you.
Your insight does not suggest much reflection into your vast experience.


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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #252 on: September 26, 2018, 11:31:56 am »
I acknowledge that there are degrees to the level of or severity of physical abuse. But what I don't know is at what point does being rough treatment become a beating.  Two punches? More? Is the difference a single grain of sand or a boulder? And I don't know if a light beating makes a person less of an abuser than a heavy beating. I know the severity matters to the person receiving the beating  from a pain and recovery point of view. So I'm hesitant to put a label on the degree to which she was abused by way of the abuser. That was the subtext to my point of the run of the mill beating  as opposed to a severe beating comment. We are not judged solely on our actions but also on the result of them.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #253 on: September 26, 2018, 11:58:39 am »
I can forgive and get past the past, he seems to have learned a lesson and will be a better person because the arrest forced him to at least be accountable and to step up and do better by his friends and family. I have no problem rooting for the guy. My earlier comment addressed the fact that others will not be able to forgive him and root for his success.

I don't understand any of this.  You can forgive?  Forgive what?  How can you forgive (or not) someone you've never met or had any meaningful interactions with?  How do you know there is even anything to forgive?  False and/or baseless allegations of DV of 5.9% - 7.1% typically fall in the same range as more traditional crimes and typically tick up in contentious partner separations where child custody is involved.  You don't know if the allegations were baseless (not enough to prosecute) or false (outright lie) or had merit or were assimilation issues surrounding the tough Canadian DV standards overlaid upon the Norteño culture (that @Noé so eloquently described earlier in the thread) that both imported up to Toronto. 

This is a sensitive issue for me.  I've made life and world view choices that have put me at ground zero at the intersection of victims and abusers.  I've seen the direct and collateral damage when there is merit to the allegations and I've seen the same when the allegations are false.  Both are horrible.   I've also seen is there is massive nuance to each and every story and it takes deep investigation to find out the actual truth at any appreciable confidence level.  And that the public "record" of this truth is rarely the full or fully correct story so the pontification on the merits of this incident seem to be wholly misplaced.  My $0.02.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #254 on: September 26, 2018, 12:02:07 pm »
I acknowledge that there are degrees to the level of or severity of physical abuse. But what I don't know is at what point does being rough treatment become a beating.  Two punches? More? Is the difference a single grain of sand or a boulder? And I don't know if a light beating makes a person less of an abuser than a heavy beating. I know the severity matters to the person receiving the beating  from a pain and recovery point of view. So I'm hesitant to put a label on the degree to which she was abused by way of the abuser. That was the subtext to my point of the run of the mill beating  as opposed to a severe beating comment. We are not judged solely on our actions but also on the result of them.

Being judged requires facts, and no one here has any. Investigation is essential, and the prosecutors know the definition of the offense and the evidence required to convict. Simple assault might be yelling and threatening words. It could be a shove or crowding into a corner. It does not require touching. The resolution they proposed did not require a guilty plea, as deferred adjudication does. No prosecutor with integrity would sign off on this resolution (or charge simple assault) if he hit her.

I am done with this. I hope there is room on the moral superiority high ground for all of you who choose to be there.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #255 on: September 26, 2018, 12:04:39 pm »
Nope. I acknowledge your self-proclaimed superior expertise on all subjects discussed on this site, but I have vastly more experience on this topic than do you.

I have no expertise on anything nor do I claim any, dickhead. You have no idea what happened, for some reason you (falsely) believe that no serious physical assault occurred, and you believe that the peace bond is somehow a confirmation of your beliefs. All of which is fucked up and stupid. I can't make you change your beliefs; I can only join the lively chorus that is pointing out how fucked up they are.

Osuna is a really weird hill to die on, especially if you're arguing a conclusion that nothing serious happened. You believe in second chances generally and are happy to grant Osuna one. That seems fine to me. To take it beyond that is irresponsible at the very least.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #256 on: September 26, 2018, 12:08:19 pm »
By the way, the nature of the assault was violently physical. The particulars were reported very briefly in the Canadian press immediately after his arrest and were later corroborated to me by people who know.

It took some work for me to find the Canadian reports but I was interested and I did.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #257 on: September 26, 2018, 12:23:51 pm »
I don't understand any of this.  You can forgive?  Forgive what?  How can you forgive (or not) someone you've never met or had any meaningful interactions with?  How do you know there is even anything to forgive?  False and/or baseless allegations of DV of 5.9% - 7.1% typically fall in the same range as more traditional crimes and typically tick up in contentious partner separations where child custody is involved.  You don't know if the allegations were baseless (not enough to prosecute) or false (outright lie) or had merit or were assimilation issues surrounding the tough Canadian DV standards overlaid upon the Norteño culture (that @Noé so eloquently described earlier in the thread) that both imported up to Toronto. 

This is a sensitive issue for me.  I've made life and world view choices that have put me at ground zero at the intersection of victims and abusers.  I've seen the direct and collateral damage when there is merit to the allegations and I've seen the same when the allegations are false.  Both are horrible.   I've also seen is there is massive nuance to each and every story and it takes deep investigation to find out the actual truth at any appreciable confidence level.  And that the public "record" of this truth is rarely the full or fully correct story so the pontification on the merits of this incident seem to be wholly misplaced.  My $0.02.

Das is a man of honor when it comes to helping victims. He is someone my family admires because we've seen firsthand what he and his wife and daughter have committed to doing to make this world just a tiny bit better for all of us. It takes courage and empathy of the highest order to reach out and get involved as I've seen Das and family do.

Simply saying kudos to my friend doesn't seem to cut it. More of a "thank you" and glad you're on the wall for us in this way Das is all I can think of right now.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #258 on: September 26, 2018, 12:58:17 pm »
I just want to add one additional thing, then I'm out of this thread for good.

Abusers are oftentimes victims of abuse. What, if any, empathy would anyone have on a person who you witness get abused and then as an adult cause harm to another human being? I did. I saw my cousin get abused... horribly abused. All in the name of machismo. And then I witnessed in horror when I saw him kick his own son in the gut so hard, I wanted to kick his ass right then and there in front of his family.


No one will truly know root causes and how to stop abuse unless they know what it is they're looking at. Crime and punishment are fine, we are a nation of laws meant to protect the innocent in all cases. I get that. And while this was a Canadian matter, it still applies that in terms of the law, Osuna had his day in court and while we can be cynical about his ability to pay for good representation and all, the end result is still the same.... they judged him based on the merits of the facts at hand and the evidence necessary to pass said judgment.  But that is not the real story here.


The real story is one only those close to this young man can provide and the young man himself. I'll say it again, there is a saying in spanish "Dime con quien andas, y yo te digo quien eres." ("Tell me who you hangout with, and I'll tell you who you are.") A culture such as one driven by machismo is hard on both women physically and men emotionally. Women have to live in a world where men think domination is gained through violence. Men think they have to behave in a certain way with women and other men or else fear getting ostracized and shunned. And men on boys violence is not uncommon in this world of machismo either. I don't know this young man, but someone does. If he needs help adjusting his emotions and framework for life driven by his upbringing, it can happen... but it's going to be because he trust that person to help him. And that means dealing honestly with demons that none of us are privy to. That's why the work that Das and Family do is important. It is what changes lives, breaks the chain of violence and makes for a better world.


So in conclusion, do you think you could have compassion for a young man who just might be a victim as much as a convicted abuser in all this? No. Okay, that's why we're never going to rise above it all and make a real difference. Crime and punishment? Sure. Compassion? Now you're asking too much. What if the victim, Osuna's partner, were to ask you personally to help him because he is, afterall, a good man that needs help to conquer those machismo demons? Still no compassion? Okay. You have that right I guess.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #259 on: September 26, 2018, 01:31:40 pm »
Perhaps she was a victim of something but not of a beating. Simple assault. You are a lawyer.  She said more than “I will not testify.” She also said “I do not feel in danger” and “I want him to parent our child.”

I don't profess to know what happened and appreciate that you acknowledge that she was a victim.  I do understand that she was not willing to travel to Toronto to testify, which probably hampered the prosecution's case fairly significantly.  I also understand that many victims of domestic violence do not testify against their abuser and often stay with their abuser, which does not minimize or dismiss the abuse.

According to this ESPN article, the peace bond "requires him to not contact the woman he is alleged to have assaulted" which indicates to me that the Crown wants any co-parenting to be at arms length.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #260 on: September 26, 2018, 02:10:07 pm »
I don't understand any of this.  You can forgive?  Forgive what?  How can you forgive (or not) someone you've never met or had any meaningful interactions with?  How do you know there is even anything to forgive?  False and/or baseless allegations of DV of 5.9% - 7.1% typically fall in the same range as more traditional crimes and typically tick up in contentious partner separations where child custody is involved.  You don't know if the allegations were baseless (not enough to prosecute) or false (outright lie) or had merit or were assimilation issues surrounding the tough Canadian DV standards overlaid upon the Norteño culture (that @Noé so eloquently described earlier in the thread) that both imported up to Toronto. 
Great points. Good questions.  I only know he was arrested for domestic violence, and the complainant, who is back in Mexico and has made amends with Roberto, didn't want to travel to Toronto to testify against him. So what am I forgiving? In the context of this board and thread, I guess I'm forgiving him in an abstract sense for the emotional upheaval his arrest and subsequent legal shit created here and elsewhere. Maybe that helps you understand what I meant, maybe not.


This is a sensitive issue for me.  I've made life and world view choices that have put me at ground zero at the intersection of victims and abusers.  I've seen the direct and collateral damage when there is merit to the allegations and I've seen the same when the allegations are false.  Both are horrible.   I've also seen is there is massive nuance to each and every story and it takes deep investigation to find out the actual truth at any appreciable confidence level.  And that the public "record" of this truth is rarely the full or fully correct story so the pontification on the merits of this incident seem to be wholly misplaced.  My $0.02.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #261 on: September 26, 2018, 02:21:04 pm »
According to this ESPN article, the peace bond "requires him to not contact the woman he is alleged to have assaulted" which indicates to me that the Crown wants any co-parenting to be at arms length.
I read that elsewhere and wondered if a Canadian edict like that had much weight in Mexico. Though, they probably shouldn't go together to Canada for a year.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #262 on: September 26, 2018, 02:42:08 pm »
Das is a man of honor when it comes to helping victims. He is someone my family admires because we've seen firsthand what he and his wife and daughter have committed to doing to make this world just a tiny bit better for all of us. It takes courage and empathy of the highest order to reach out and get involved as I've seen Das and family do.

Simply saying kudos to my friend doesn't seem to cut it. More of a "thank you" and glad you're on the wall for us in this way Das is all I can think of right now.

Thanks, my friend.  Great to "see" you, Noé!
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #263 on: September 26, 2018, 03:05:21 pm »
I read that elsewhere and wondered if a Canadian edict like that had much weight in Mexico. Though, they probably shouldn't go together to Canada for a year.
What is the weight of a canadian edict? In Mexico, ephemeral. Canada, heavy. In the USA, maybe a lot. Crimes of violence can impact a work visa. Do not need a conviction for a visa to be denied or revoked.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #264 on: September 26, 2018, 03:15:57 pm »
I read that elsewhere and wondered if a Canadian edict like that had much weight in Mexico. Though, they probably shouldn't go together to Canada for a year.

I assume that there is a jurisdictional requirement that any act in violation of the bond must occur in Canadian territory, but I don't really know.  Once they cross the border today the Astros don't return until August 30 next year, so if so Osuna has a pretty good shot at riding out the terms.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #265 on: October 03, 2018, 04:19:01 pm »
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #266 on: October 03, 2018, 05:38:34 pm »
Addison Russel handed a 40-game suspension for domestic violence.

Makes you wonder if MLB assigns these suspensions at random or if Osuna’s deeds really merited nearly double the time.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #267 on: October 03, 2018, 05:47:30 pm »
Makes you wonder if MLB assigns these suspensions at random or if Osuna’s deeds really merited nearly double the time.
I imagine timing has something to do with it. Abuse coming to light well after the fact might get treated differently. After reading Russell's wife's story, I would be horrified if Osuna did something to merit twice the suspension.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #268 on: October 03, 2018, 05:48:52 pm »
Makes you wonder if MLB assigns these suspensions at random or if Osuna’s deeds really merited nearly double the time.
I think the difference here is that Osuna was actually arrested for his accusation. A legal case needs a longer suspension from a PR standpoint. Pitcher vs position player may have something to do with it also. Pitchers tend to get longer suspensions since they dont play every day. Of course, all that I've said could be wildly inaccurate.

There could be another reason or MLB could have a little NFLitis and be just making it up as they go along

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #269 on: October 03, 2018, 05:57:58 pm »
For the record, I don’t think there’s any way his transgressions were any worse (and hopefully not nearly as bad) as Russell’s, especially based on the level of charges from Canada. I agree MLB likely erred by being overly cautious because Osuna was arrested and wanted to avoid PR nightmare, not because they had evidence of a more serious nature than we have been led to believe actually exists and that anyone outside their investigation had privvy to.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2018, 06:01:32 pm by astrojo »

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #270 on: October 11, 2018, 12:15:46 am »
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 12:30:05 am by Snuffy »
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #271 on: October 11, 2018, 07:40:26 am »
Pressley stands up for Osuna against a heckling Indian's fan.
https://sports.yahoo.com/astros-reliever-clashes-heckler-roberto-osuna-domestic-violence-allegations-002837981.html

A number of Astros have spoken up for him as a person and teammate, including Bregman and CFM. Morton’s defense of him focused on his character and had nothing to do with baseball.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #272 on: October 17, 2018, 09:38:27 am »
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2801274-astros-controversial-roberto-osuna-trade-blows-up-in-critical-alcs-game-3?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial

Quote
Whatever Osuna may have done to deserve his punishment, karma isn't going for him when he's on the mound anyway. Scales such as these can't be balanced by a couple of bad pitches in a silly game for kids.

For the Astros, on the other hand, what happened in the eighth inning Tuesday is absolutely karmic retribution.


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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #273 on: October 17, 2018, 10:15:25 am »
BR is a click-bait site.

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Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #274 on: October 17, 2018, 10:19:21 am »
BR is a click-bait site.

Is it?  I’m not too familiar with it. The writer came across as a douche. That’s all I know.

It was a link off CNN.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #275 on: October 17, 2018, 10:41:05 am »
Is it?  I’m not too familiar with it. The writer came across as a douche. That’s all I know.

It was a link off CNN.

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Usual M.O. is tantalizing headline,  then a few paragraphs of someone summarizing a story and throwing in an editorial content.

They took over CNNs sports stuff after they parted ways with SI.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #276 on: October 17, 2018, 11:49:51 am »
Maybe I'm confusing it with something else, but I associate it with 100 panel galleries and 200 word articles with 117 MB of ads. In any case, I'm going to put my attention elsewhere.


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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #278 on: October 17, 2018, 01:52:12 pm »
Fuck this.

Oh, I agree.  I was just posting it here for anyone who cared to read it.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #279 on: October 17, 2018, 01:53:25 pm »
Usual M.O. is tantalizing headline,  then a few paragraphs of someone summarizing a story and throwing in an editorial content.

They took over CNNs sports stuff after they parted ways with SI.

Gotcha.  I'll avoid it in the future.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #280 on: October 17, 2018, 02:00:42 pm »
Maybe I'm confusing it with something else, but I associate it with 100 panel galleries and 200 word articles with 117 MB of ads. In any case, I'm going to put my attention elsewhere.


I have been very pleased with my decision to subscribe to the Athletic.  Not every article is a winner, but they are better on average than what i had been getting, and some of the depth is downright phenomenal.  And the absence of bandwidth-killing auto-loading commercial video alone is worth the price. 

Yay.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #281 on: October 17, 2018, 02:15:44 pm »
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2801274-astros-controversial-roberto-osuna-trade-blows-up-in-critical-alcs-game-3?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial

I had a few friends suggest a curse of Osuna when we stumbling a bit in August after the trade.  If the author wants to make that kind of argument, maybe he can, though I personally think the tone is too bit self-righteous and I also don't have a problem squaring zero-tolerance with a belief in rehabilitation after punishment. 

What really got me though was referring to Giles and Paulino as "spare parts" as though the Astros gave no value back.  They may not have had a place/future on this roster but they aren't nothing.  The day after the trade, Olney made almost the exact opposite (and in my view correct) observation, "A clue that the Astros did not view Osuna as a toxic asset to be avoided can be found in the trade return to the Blue Jays...That's a relatively aggressive return for a player other teams wouldn't consider."
 http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24237553/buster-olney-houston-astros-own-all-comes-acquiring-roberto-osuna
Yay.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #282 on: October 17, 2018, 03:43:16 pm »
I have been very pleased with my decision to subscribe to the Athletic.  Not every article is a winner, but they are better on average than what i had been getting, and some of the depth is downright phenomenal.  And the absence of bandwidth-killing auto-loading commercial video alone is worth the price.

+1
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #283 on: October 17, 2018, 04:32:40 pm »
I agree it's been great.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #284 on: October 17, 2018, 05:15:03 pm »
I’m all in for The Athletic.


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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #285 on: October 17, 2018, 05:36:44 pm »
I'm "meh" on the Athletic. Not sure I'd renew if my subscription were to expire tomorrow.

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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #286 on: October 18, 2018, 12:29:42 pm »
I like it very much.
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Re: Astros just acquired Osuna
« Reply #287 on: October 18, 2018, 04:08:35 pm »
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