75-87

[MusicMan]

That's our record over the last 162 games.

There's no way around it - this team is not good.

[Reuben]

But they should be.

[WVastro]

The most interesting thing this season might be how BudGirl figures out who "wins" the Race for the Lid.

[Fredia]

reverse the numbers. and who put the chink in the armor that was last years season

[Ron Brand]

reverse the numbers. and who put the chink in the armor that was last years season

Conger's gone.

[HudsonHawk]

Unless they make substantial improvements, this will be the worst team in Astros history. It's a 120-loss team. And whoever said it is right...they shouldn't be. They have 90 win talent that's going to struggle to get to 50. They have the talent to turn it around, but this team has zero heart, zero guts. The bottom 2/3rds of the order have no business in the Major Leagues. They'd better pull their head out.

[Waldo]

Conger's gone.

Subtle.

[Navin R Johnson]

So how long does Hinch last?  Current course leads me to believe the All-Star break.

[pots]

So how long does Hinch last?  Current course leads me to believe the All-Star break.

Hinch had nothing to do with the Gomez and Giles trades

[das]

Unless they make substantial improvements, this will be the worst team in Astros history. It's a 120-loss team. And whoever said it is right...they shouldn't be. They have 90 win talent that's going to struggle to get to 50. They have the talent to turn it around, but this team has zero heart, zero guts. The bottom 2/3rds of the order have no business in the Major Leagues. They'd better pull their head out.

It'll be ok as long as we continue to support and love each other. WTH?

[Fredia]

people will still be fans and there will be lots of drinking involved

[Navin R Johnson]

Hinch had nothing to do with the Gomez and Giles trades

Right or wrong, managers are judged on wins and losses not a GMs trades.

[David in Jackson]

This is a bad team and the record over the past 162 games proves it.  This is not just a poor start -- this a large enough sample size to show the team is what it is, not what many thought it was.  But for a spectacular two weeks from Chris Carter last September, the team would not have made the playoffs, suffering a major collapse to lose the division, and expectations for this season would have been very different.

I've trusted in Luhnow and the stat nerd hype, but Appel, Gomez, Giles, Gattis, JD Martinez, etc., has me doubting now.
After putting the fan base through the most radical teardown in history (the worst three-year run in 50 years), winning now is expected.  Anything less than postseason in 2016 is a failure. Will payroll ever increase?  I just don't know what this team does differently for the remainder of the season. 

[Reuben]

Right or wrong, managers are judged on wins and losses not a GMs trades.

Oh please. So you really think he's gonna go from universally-loved Manager of The Year runner-up to fired in half a season? That tends not to happen, unless maybe the owner is Steinbrenner. And Jim Crane is no Steinbrenner (for better and for worse).

As for drafting Appel, that's pure hindsight GMing there. Everyone had him as being one of the top 3 prospects in that draft, if not #1, and no clear separation among those top 3. At least 28 other teams would've been thrilled to draft him. It sucks that they didn't take Bryant instead but that's the MLB draft for you. The other moves cited, sure, you can assign some degree of blame there but most of those are hindsight-driven too.

[Jacksonian]

Hinch had nothing to do with the Gomez and Giles trades

I'm beginning to think this started with the Fowler trade.

[Mr. Happy]

Oh please. So you really think he's gonna go from universally-loved Manager of The Year runner-up to fired in half a season? That tends not to happen, unless maybe the owner is Steinbrenner. And Jim Crane is no Steinbrenner (for better and for worse).

As for drafting Appel, that's pure hindsight GMing there. Everyone had him as being one of the top 3 prospects in that draft, if not #1, and no clear separation among those top 3. At least 28 other teams would've been thrilled to draft him. It sucks that they didn't take Bryant instead but that's the MLB draft for you. The other moves cited, sure, you can assign some degree of blame there but most of those are hindsight-driven too.

I agree with you, but I seem to recall that Scrap Iron got a quick hook, as did the Wrangler, so there is some precedent for it.

[MusicMan]

I've trusted in Luhnow and the stat nerd hype, but Appel, Gomez, Giles, Gattis, JD Martinez, etc., has me doubting now.

Show me one person that thought releasing JD Martinez made a bit of difference at the time. Keep in mind that every team passed on him on waivers.

[HudsonHawk]

It'll be ok as long as we continue to support and love each other. WTH?

I love all you motherfuckers. 

[David in Jackson]

Show me one person that thought releasing JD Martinez made a bit of difference at the time. Keep in mind that every team passed on him on waivers.

Fair enough.  Like most people here, I'm a little in flailing panic disgust mode this morning.

[HudsonHawk]

Show me one person that thought releasing JD Martinez made a bit of difference at the time. Keep in mind that every team passed on him on waivers.

I'm on record as saying I thought Martinez could be a good hitter at this level, but I wasn't upset that the Astros cut him loose.  The fact that he's turned into a productive hitter doesn't surprise me though. 

[das]

I love all you motherfuckers.

Apparently, love is one of the key ingredients that will help the team turn the page.

http://m.astros.mlb.com/news/article/175509754/astros-ready-to-leave-april-behind-them
(Altuve quote at the end)

[hostros7]

As for drafting Appel, that's pure hindsight GMing there. Everyone had him as being one of the top 3 prospects in that draft, if not #1, and no clear separation among those top 3. At least 28 other teams would've been thrilled to draft him. It sucks that they didn't take Bryant instead but that's the MLB draft for you. The other moves cited, sure, you can assign some degree of blame there but most of those are hindsight-driven too.

It has been reported that the Cubs also had Appel higher than Bryant on their board.

[hostros7]

I agree with you, but I seem to recall that Scrap Iron got a quick hook, as did the Wrangler, so there is some precedent for it.

The regime that made those decisions is long gone.

Hinch isn't the problem.

[Navin R Johnson]

Oh please. So you really think he's gonna go from universally-loved Manager of The Year runner-up to fired in half a season? That tends not to happen, unless maybe the owner is Steinbrenner. And Jim Crane is no Steinbrenner (for better and for worse).

If the Astros are 30-47 or something near that at the all-star break.... I could see it happening.  At the very least there are going to be changes with the staff.   I think Luhnow really likes AJ, but at some point somebody is getting thrown under the bus if the team keeps playing like this.

Here is to hoping it doesn't come to that and the team goes 17-7ish in June and sets itself up for a playoff run.

[das]

If the Astros are 30-47 or something near that at the all-star break.... I could see it happening.  At the very least there are going to be changes with the staff.   I think Luhnow really likes AJ, but at some point somebody is getting thrown under the bus if the team keeps playing like this.

Here is to hoping it doesn't come to that and the team goes 17-7ish in June and sets itself up for a playoff run.

Going 23-30 to get to that 30-47 record seems like a pretty steep uphill right now.

[MusicMan]

Apparently, love is one of the key ingredients that will help the team turn the page.

http://m.astros.mlb.com/news/article/175509754/astros-ready-to-leave-april-behind-them
(Altuve quote at the end)

All you need is love.

[moriartp]

All you need is love.

John Lennon. Smart man. Shot in the back, very sad.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

I'm on record as saying I thought Martinez could be a good hitter at this level, but I wasn't upset that the Astros cut him loose.  The fact that he's turned into a productive hitter doesn't surprise me though.

Same here.

[Mr. Happy]

The regime that made those decisions is long gone.

Hinch isn't the problem.

I agree with you.

[juliogotay]

It has been reported that the Cubs also had Appel higher than Bryant on their board.

Damn, I wish they had gone first.

[juliogotay]

I agree with you.

Me too. I think Hinch will be in the Astros front office somewhere when it is his or the club's decision not to manage.

[chuck]

I can't imagine Hinch going anywhere and I can't imagine the team's getting significantly better as it is currently constructed. That's why I'm so fascinated to see what changes they do make if things continue along the present path.

[Mr. Happy]

I can't imagine Hinch going anywhere and I can't imagine the team's getting significantly better as it is currently constructed. That's why I'm so fascinated to see what changes they do make if things continue along the present path.

I could see them bringing up Moran.

[austro]

I've been watching the Mets and Giants while waiting for the Astros, and MLB Network keeps running their little news crawl across the bottom of the screen where they periodically point out that Astros starters have a 5.08 ERA, worst in the AL. But that suggests that there might be a worse staff in the NL, so I went over to baseball-reference.com to take a look. My quick search couldn't find starter ERA, but staff ERA will do. As you would expect, the Astros are indeed last in the AL with a 4.97 staff ERA. But in the NL there are actually four (!) teams with worse staff ERAs: ATL (5.05), CIN (5.42), COL (5.50), and MIL (5.60). And ARI is close to the Astros with a 4.90. How painful must it be to watch all of those teams? They even get the advantage of pitching to pitchers occasionally.

[juliogotay]

I could see them bringing up Moran.

I wouldn't look for it anytime soon. He is striking out at a 25% clip and showing no discernible power.

The 1914 "Miracle Braves" started 6-18 and won the WS. No other team has started 7-17 or worse and made the playoffs. 

[Jacksonian]

I wouldn't look for it anytime soon. He is striking out at a 25% clip and showing no discernible power.

And he's hitting just .263 over his last 10 games.

[hostros7]

Damn, I wish they had gone first.

While we're in the process of second guessing and reexamining the past from the perspective of the present, fuck Cole Hamels for being such a prissy bitch.

[jbm]

The idea that Moran is some kind of savior is suspect.

This team has major head up their ass disease, but it isn't nearly as bad or as untalented as some suggest.

The only beef I have with Luhnow is his apparent acceptance of the high K hitters. It leads to a slump prone offense. Terrible for a young team.

[austro]

The only beef I have with Luhnow is his apparent acceptance of the high K hitters. It leads to a slump prone offense. Terrible for a young team.

And it bails out other teams' weak defenses. One need only look at KC's success the last two seasons to see the benefit of that approach. Keep putting pressure on the other defense and they'll occasionally make mistakes.

[Reuben]

The idea that Moran is some kind of savior is suspect.

This team has major head up their ass disease, but it isn't nearly as bad or as untalented as some suggest.

The only beef I have with Luhnow is his apparent acceptance of the high K hitters. It leads to a slump prone offense. Terrible for a young team.

Moran doesn't have to be a savior; simply being better than Valbuena would help and be worth doing, when they think he's ready.

[Fredia]

did anyone else see who got the save on a one run game today? i think they need to up my meds

[Reuben]

Yeah.

[JimR]

I would make the Giles trade again.

[MusicMan]

I would make the Giles trade again.

I would too.  But I hated the Gomez trade at the time, and I hate it now.

[BudGirl]

And yet again, the Astros have the player of the week.  Colby Rasmus.

[MusicMan]

And yet again, the Astros have the player of the week.  Colby Rasmus.

This is becoming comical, like MLB is just fucking with our emotions.

[Fredia]

but its way to early for a break up

[Mr. Happy]

I would too.  But I hated the Gomez trade at the time, and I hate it now.

I wasn't sure about the Fowler trade either.

[MusicMan]

I wasn't sure about the Fowler trade either.

I didn't mind that.  They needed a 3b, and he seemed expendable.

[roadrunner]

I think this team had unfair expectations.  Altuve/Correa/Springer is an excellent core, but it's realistic that they are still 1-3 years away from getting the most out of that trio.  Correa is still just 21 and not Mike Trout, unfortunately, but Trout was a once in a generation 21-year old.  Even Harper took some time to adjust to MLB.  There is nothing wrong with Correa having a sophomore slump, but if he has a sophomore slump then this lineup is very mediocre (as we have already seen).  Springer is still very streaky.  Hopefully he will grow to be more consistent but if he is not taking strides to fulfill his potential then this lineup becomes below average.  Altuve is incredible, but he and Rasmus are basically carrying the bats and nobody expects Rasmus to sustain this success.  The rest of the lineup isn't worth mentioning because they are either rookies or random role players in starting positions.

If Keuchel throws like the Cy Young winner he was last year, then the Astros will probably put together a winning streak at some point and crawl back to .500.  Is it likely that DK will continue his Cy Young-level performance?  ....I don't know.  It's also hard to imagine McHugh is any better than what he has shown, and most likely he is worse.  We will be expecting a lot out of McCullers when he comes back but he's also like 22 years old.

Long story short - I think this team is still a couple years away.

[moriartp]

I didn't mind that.  They needed a 3b, and he seemed expendable.

Yeah, it seemed like a smart reallocation of resources with Rasmus available to replace Fowler. The 3B options heading into 2015 were dreadful.

[BudGirl]

This was the year we were truly expecting them to be good.  The fact that they made the playoffs had us all thinking they were ahead of schedule. 

IMO, there are some obvious problems with this team.  McCullers cannot get them back to .500 by himself.  The pitching as a whole has to step up.  The bottom of the lineup has to be more productive.  The defensive problems should be easily correctable - they are professional athletes, right?

I blame Hinch for some - he has to be able to manage the team he is given to get the most production.  Whether it be sitting a player, moving one up or down in the lineup, having them take infield practice, whatever, it is his job to read his players and figure out what they need to be better than they have been.

I blame Hinch for some - he put this roster together.  Is he not willing to make a change because he does not want to be wrong?  (I really don't think that.)  Does he just want to give a player the biggest opportunity before pulling a plug on a player's career?  Maybe.  Either way, he's responsible for the talent assembled.

I blame the players for some - they need to get some mental toughness, in all aspects.  I feel like Correa and Altuve should be the leaders of this team in the clubhouse and need to have a players only meeting and take the lead on getting it fixed.  There does not seem to be any of the fun from last season. Yeah, it is hard to have fun when you are sucking, but you gotta do something.

[Mr. Happy]

Yeah, it seemed like a smart reallocation of resources with Rasmus available to replace Fowler. The 3B options heading into 2015 were dreadful.

So are the prospects for the hot corner for 2016. I just thought (hoped is probably a better word) that we could have gotten a little more for Fowler.

[Mr. Happy]

It's like Biz said, we've got the scuffling Twins coming in. We need to sweep those poor bastards.

[hostros7]

I would make the Giles trade again.

The trade will be viewed over the long-term, and we don't have nearly enough information to assess it on that timeline yet.

However, Giles was brought in to help the team "win now." The biggest issue for this team has been starting pitching, and VV has excelled in that role the Phils. If he were in the Astros' rotation, it would be reasonable to assume that the team would have a couple more notched in the win column. Furthermore, Giles has cost the team a couple in the late innings. The net effect of it would be that the team would be closer to .500 than in the cellar at this point in the season and would not be required to win above a .600 clip for the rest of the year to get in the range of the magic 89-90 win threshold and make the playoffs. Small sample size and all that, but it may be enough to torpedo an entire season because the goal was and is the playoffs . . . and that is not insignificant.

The Astros-Royals series last year made it evident that the Astros were outclassed in primarily two departments, late-inning relief and situational hitting. The Astros lacked the truly elite bullpen arms to win the close games at that high of a level. I supported and support the trade for Giles because it was an attempt to address one of those two. The long-term goal is to be the best team in the AL. An arm in the bullpen like Giles's gets the team closer to that, IMO, assuming he gets his head back on straight or works out whatever mechanical issue he is grappling with. We can leave the situational hitting discussion for another day.

[Bench]

I wasn't sure about the Fowler trade either.

I recall the explanation at the time was that the Fowler trade allowed them to get Rasmus.

[Bench]

It's like Biz said, we've got the scuffling Twins coming in. We need to sweep those poor bastards.

Footer is calling this home stand a make or break moment for the Astros season.  I think she's right. 

[hostros7]

Footer is calling this home stand a make or break moment for the Astros season.  I think she's right.

At least about the "break" part -- taking a series from the Twins isn't that meaningful, but losing it is.

[MusicMan]

Footer is calling this home stand a make or break moment for the Astros season.  I think she's right.

She's right. If they go 5-5 or worse, I'm not seeing a way to dig out of the hole.

[Waldo]

This was the year we were truly expecting them to be good.  The fact that they made the playoffs had us all thinking they were ahead of schedule. 

IMO, there are some obvious problems with this team.  McCullers cannot get them back to .500 by himself.  The pitching as a whole has to step up.  The bottom of the lineup has to be more productive.  The defensive problems should be easily correctable - they are professional athletes, right?

I blame Hinch for some - he has to be able to manage the team he is given to get the most production.  Whether it be sitting a player, moving one up or down in the lineup, having them take infield practice, whatever, it is his job to read his players and figure out what they need to be better than they have been.

I blame Hinch Luhnow for some - he put this roster together.  Is he not willing to make a change because he does not want to be wrong?  (I really don't think that.)  Does he just want to give a player the biggest opportunity before pulling a plug on a player's career?  Maybe.  Either way, he's responsible for the talent assembled.

I blame the players for some - they need to get some mental toughness, in all aspects.  I feel like Correa and Altuve should be the leaders of this team in the clubhouse and need to have a players only meeting and take the lead on getting it fixed.  There does not seem to be any of the fun from last season. Yeah, it is hard to have fun when you are sucking, but you gotta do something.

FIFY, I'm assuming?

[JimR]

She's right. If they go 5-5 or worse, I'm not seeing a way to dig out of the hole.

way, way too early. the Rangers were dead and buried last year and won the division.

[HudsonHawk]

way, way too early. the Rangers were dead and buried last year and won the division.

The Astros are 8-17.  At this point last year, the Rangers were 8-16 coming into MMPUS, on a 3-12 skid, for a three game set with the Astros.  They swept the Astros en route to a 19-11 May to get back to .500

[BudGirl]

FIFY, I'm assuming?

correct.

[juliogotay]

The Astros are 8-17.  At this point last year, the Rangers were 8-16 coming into MMPUS, on a 3-12 skid, for a three game set with the Astros.  They swept the Astros en route to a 19-11 May to get back to .500

This division is still mediocre so if the Astros can get to .500 they could get in a Wild Card race by the All-Star break. But they need to start winning series consistently and a little win-streak of five or a 8/11 stretch is needed soon. This home stand is big.

[HudsonHawk]

This division is still mediocre so if the Astros can get to .500 they could get in a Wild Card race by the All-Star break. But they need to start winning series consistently and a little win-streak of five or a 8/11 stretch is needed soon. This home stand is big.

Agreed.  But that's the difference between this team and say 2013.  They have the talent for a 5-game win streak and to avoid a 7-game skid.  But they have to do it.  They can't keep going 1-2 in every series. 

[The Third Man]

I agree with you, but I seem to recall that Scrap Iron got a quick hook, as did the Wrangler, so there is some precedent for it.

Those managers were a lot more accomplished than AJ Fucking Hinch.

[Arky Vaughan]

The Astros are 8-17.  At this point last year, the Rangers were 8-16 coming into MMPUS, on a 3-12 skid, for a three game set with the Astros.  They swept the Astros en route to a 19-11 May to get back to .500

So the shot in the arm they need is to play themselves.

[JimR]

Those managers were a lot more accomplished than AJ Fucking Hinch.

is that what you said last year?

[Arky Vaughan]

How is it Hinch's fault that the starters have gone from second in the league in ERA in 2015 to 14th in the league in ERA in 2016 and the relievers have  gone from fourth in the league in ERA in 2015 to 14th in the league in ERA in 2016?

[Navin R Johnson]

It is sports, there always has to be someone at fault.   Whether it is Hinch or the pitching coach or the hitting coach, someone is taking the fall.

[Arky Vaughan]

It is sports, there always has to be someone at fault.   Whether it is Hinch or the pitching coach or the hitting coach, someone is taking the fall.

Although I don't think it's Strom's fault either, I think he's much more likely to be canned than Hinch.

[Navin R Johnson]

What about the hitting coach, Dave Hudgens. 

Gomez, Gattis, Lowrie, Valbuena all declined from their #s with their previous teams.   Castro has somehow gotten worse.  Altuve has been great.  Springer hasn't really progressed, nor has Tucker or Marisnick, .   Correa is to early to tell.

Carter got worse from 14 to 15, and is now having a terrific year in Milwaukee, both Santana and Villar are hitting better there as well.    Lowrie hit 249 in 2014 in Oakland, then .208 for Houston last year and now is hitting 308 for the As this season. 

Really the only person who is hitting better with the Astros than they were with their former team is Rasmus, but it isn't by much.

Or maybe all the players just aren't as good as we were hoping.

[Navin R Johnson]

Hudgens was the hitting coach for the Mets from 2011-2014.   In 2010 the Mets had a OPS of .697.  The next year, Hudgen's first, they jumped to .725.  The next 3 years their OPS was .701, .672, .673 and Hudgens was let go.  The year after he left the Mets OPS jumped to .712 and last year it was .786.

[roadrunner]

Or maybe all the players just aren't as good as we were hoping.

I really think this is it. 

Keuchel is not Tom Glavine.

Correa is not Mike Trout.

Giles is not Wade Davis.

Gomez is hurts the team more than he helps the team.

I don't think there's anything you can do to fix these things.

[BudGirl]

I really think this is it. 

Keuchel is not Tom Glavine.

Correa is not Mike Trout.

Giles is not Wade Davis.

Gomez is hurts the team more than he helps the team.

I don't think there's anything you can do to fix these things.

I disagree with your assessment of Carlos.  Yeah, he's no Trout, but then again, Trout isn't Correa.  I think Keuchel is good, whether he is a HOF pitcher will be determined by his pitching. 

[jbm]

I really think this is it. 

Keuchel is not Tom Glavine.

Correa is not Mike Trout.

Giles is not Wade Davis.

Gomez is hurts the team more than he helps the team.

I don't think there's anything you can do to fix these things.

Well, I don't know how you felt about these players last year, but if you have easily identified these misconceptions, then hopefully the GM would have as well. 

[Fredia]

i am hoping for a general slump and something will happen to kick them out of their funk

[juliogotay]

i am hoping for a general slump and something will happen to kick them out of their funk

this doesn't qualify as a general slump?

[roadrunner]

Well, I don't know how you felt about these players last year, but if you have easily identified these misconceptions, then hopefully the GM would have as well.

I'm not blaming Luhnow.  The organization appeared ahead of schedule so he made deals to help the team now.  I just think the reality is that they aren't there yet.  It's not on Luhnow...they fooled us and everyone in the media, too.  My opinion isn't supposed to take anything away from last year, either.  The organization just isn't positioned for sustained success yet like the Cubs appear to be.

[roadrunner]

I disagree with your assessment of Carlos.  Yeah, he's no Trout, but then again, Trout isn't Correa.  I think Keuchel is good, whether he is a HOF pitcher will be determined by his pitching.

Saying Correa is not Mike Trout is not a knock on Correa at all.  Mike Trout was once-in-a-generation at ages 20-22.  Nobody is like that except Bryce Harper who is now 23.  Assuming Correa was going to elevate his play to MVP-level is unrealistic, but that is the kind of hype he is getting.  A .270 season with 20-25 homers is still in play and would still be a great year for a 21 year old SS, but that's also coming from the #3 hitter...

[Navin R Johnson]

With all the draft picks and allotted money they have had from 2012-2015 it is a bit worrisome how little pitching they got right.  The obviously nailed it with McCullers but after that?  The top 3 prospects on the farm system now are guys who drafted by other teams.  And outside of Musgrove and Martes, is there anyone who projects as a + prospect? 

[Jacksonian]

With all the draft picks and allotted money they have had from 2012-2015 it is a bit worrisome how little pitching they got right.  The obviously nailed it with McCullers but after that?  The top 3 prospects on the farm system now are guys who drafted by other teams.  And outside of Musgrove and Martes, is there anyone who projects as a + prospect?

They missed on Appel and Aiken.  Otherwise they've drafted position players in the first round.

Paulino is also in AA and doing well.  Abreu is raw but big armed at Quad Cities.

[Russ99]

IMO, this all comes down to Luhnow's perceived low cost competitive edge with soft-tossing pitchers, and run producers who strike out a ton.

And like with Billy Beane's famous Moneyball team, the league eventually adapts.

The league knows that they're not going to see hard stuff up and in, and the league-wide squeezing of the strike zone hurts our pitchers more than other teams' pitchers. It's no coincidence that our walks are up and the opponents are hitting us harder.

Conversely when our hitters are swinging at everything, why would thr opposing team throw them something decent to hit.

We need a few more call-ups and trades to adapt to this ourselves.