In Defense of Leaving a Game Early

[Limey]

This is about soccer, but the theme is universal.

When I have mentioned that I'm quite happy to leave a game if my team are getting thrashed I've been accused of disloyalty. In my mind it's actually the people who stay who are doing more damage. Walking out is a form of protest. You are saying to the players that they do not deserve your support.

I am not one to leave a game early under almost any circumstances.  But I do agree with the sentiment that a mass walk out of home fans should be considered a form of protest, even though it mostly isn't.  However, the author, for the most part, seems to be using a bad performance to justify leaving early when leaving early is really just a convenience for him.  That's bullshit.

[Bench]

This is about soccer, but the theme is universal.


I am not one to leave a game early under almost any circumstances.  But I do agree with the sentiment that a mass walk out of home fans should be considered a form of protest, even though it mostly isn't.  However, the author, for the most part, seems to be using a bad performance to justify leaving early when leaving early is really just a convenience for him.  That's bullshit.

Saying to the players that "they do not deserve your support" merely because they are losing is utter bullshit. 

Also, just shut up and watch the fucking game.  There's more to the fan's observational experience than just who wins or loses.  You'll get a lot more enjoyment reading the box score if that's all you care about.

[Limey]

Saying to the players that "they do not deserve your support" merely because they are losing is utter bullshit. 

Agreed.  But protesting a team who is mailing it in, is totally acceptable IMHO.

[chuck]

Agreed.  But protesting a team who is mailing it in, is totally acceptable IMHO.

Or you can simply elect not to go in the first place.

[Limey]

Or you can simply elect not to go in the first place.

Exactly.

FTR, I do not believe the Astros' are mailing it in and, under normal circumstances, I would be watching them.  My boycott is in protest of MLB's - and that arsewhole Selig's - treatment of the Astros, and the new owner's complicity in same.

[Noe]

Exactly.

FTR, I do not believe the Astros' are mailing it in and, under normal circumstances, I would be watching them.  My boycott is in protest of MLB's - and that arsewhole Selig's - treatment of the Astros, and the new owner's complicity in same.

Me too, I totally reject the idea that the Astros are not trying to compete. Mebelieves the organization knows it's a long shot, but they do believe these are major league caliber players. It's up the players to prove otherwise (and they are doing a good job of it too).

[Limey]

Me too, I totally reject the idea that the Astros are not trying to compete. Mebelieves the organization knows it's a long shot, but they do believe these are major league caliber players. It's up the players to prove otherwise (and they are doing a good job of it too).

I disagree that the organisation thinks these are major league calibre players.  For the most part, they are (very) cheap placeholders who are not up to the task, and the club knows it.

[Mr. Happy]

I disagree that the organisation thinks these are major league calibre players.  For the most part, they are (very) cheap placeholders who are not up to the task, and the club knows it.

+1 They have to know. The club is 10-30 for crying out loud.

[JimR]

Exactly.

FTR, I do not believe the Astros' are mailing it in and, under normal circumstances, I would be watching them.  My boycott is in protest of MLB's - and that arsewhole Selig's - treatment of the Astros, and the new owner's complicity in same.

how tall is that windmill, Don?

[Limey]

how tall is that windmill, Don?

Not that tall, but it is part of a collection.

ETA:  MLB, Randall's, Samsung, Landry's, to name a few.

[Noe]

I disagree that the organisation thinks these are major league calibre players.  For the most part, they are (very) cheap placeholders who are not up to the task, and the club knows it.

The line between a major league caliber and not a major league caliber is very thin. You have to find out. But the reason they are losing is not because they basically are wrong in their evaluations or are purposely trying to lose. The reason they can't win consistently is because the organization is bypassing integrating young players that may (or may not) help you win into a core group of veterans. Houston is doing that differently than anyone else, hoping the kids respond to the challenge.

That they aren't is not because the strategy is to lose or even that some of these guys are not major league caliber. The reason is that Houston is in no position to integrate young with veteran... they had no farm system and they had players that were too old (other than Pence and Bourn). When Bagwell and Biggio passed the baton to Oswalt and Berkman, then Berkman and Oswalt had no one to pass the baton to unless you count Pence... and we all saw how that didn't work out. Pence, I don't care how much they tried to sell it... was not a leader nor good veteran to build around. He was so undiciplined and was a good addition to a team that had that in place already.

Add to this that McLane wanted out and you have a disaster of an organization to have to revive. I just plain do not like people saying Houston is losing on purpose... "tanking"... that's a bad word to me.

[Bench]

The line between a major league caliber and not a major league caliber is very thin. You have to find out. But the reason they are losing is not because they basically are wrong in their evaluations or are purposely trying to lose. The reason they can't win consistently is because the organization is bypassing integrating young players that may (or may not) help you win into a core group of veterans. Houston is doing that differently than anyone else, hoping the kids respond to the challenge.

That they aren't is not because the strategy is to lose or even that some of these guys are not major league caliber. The reason is that Houston is in no position to integrate young with veteran... they had no farm system and they had players that were too old (other than Pence and Bourn). When Bagwell and Biggio passed the baton to Oswalt and Berkman, then Berkman and Oswalt had no one to pass the baton to unless you count Pence... and we all saw how that didn't work out. Pence, I don't care how much they tried to sell it... was not a leader nor good veteran to build around. He was so undiciplined and was a good addition to a team that had that in place already.

Add to this that McLane wanted out and you have a disaster of an organization to have to revive. I just plain do not like people saying Houston is losing on purpose... "tanking"... that's a bad word to me.

Tanking can be a broad term.  I do think the Astros are rebuilding with a solid organizational strategy that focuses on development of the next generation at the expense of the current major league team.  Given the structure of the current MLBPA, there is signficant growth advantage to being the absolutely worst team in MLB.  And I think they are embracing and exploiting that structure for the very best long term interests of the franchise.  And I also think it's valid, fair, and, so far, appears to be moving in the right direction.  Thanks Jeffy!

But is that tanking?  I certainly don't think that any player isn't trying their damn level best every game, which is how I see tanking.  I don't think the front office has instructed the players or staff to go out and lose.  But I do think the front office has little interest, and rightly so, in trying to put a squad on the field that could win the most games that the front office could conceivably assemble.  And I think that's fine, given the long term and legitimately competitive strategy Luhnow has put in place.

[chuck]

Not that tall, but it is part of a collection.

ETA:  MLB, Randall's, Samsung, Landry's, to name a few.

I don't remember hearing the Landry's story. I'd like to, though, because in your case there's always a difference between an event-based boycott and not going somewhere simply because the food sucks.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

But I do think the front office has little interest, and rightly so, in trying to put a squad on the field that could win the most games that the front office could conceivably assemble.  And I think that's fine, given the long term and legitimately competitive strategy Luhnow has put in place.

This is where I have a bit of difficulty. I believe the new ownership group has said, "fuck it," in term of fielding a competitive team for now. I resent the hell out of that attitude but I understand the choice, given what they were left with. I realize there is a natural ebb and flow of talent and over time every team will experience a fluctuation in it's ability to compete, but one should always try to make the best effort to win. I understand the spin, to not have mediocre vets take ABs away from unproven youngsters with potential. However, I also believe and history has proven, the best place to develop talent is in the Minors. I think you can hurt a player's growth buy putting one in a position where they haven't sufficiently proven themselves. A chance to fail is a chance to succeed but the odds aren't the same. I just feel that a team has a responsibility to the other teams and it's fans to make a better effort to put a more competitive team on the field.

The problem with the Astros it that their major weakness is at pitching and that was a problem anyone could have seen coming five or six years ago. And for this I can't wholly blame Crane and company because this is what they bought. Other than Wandy, the Astros haven't developed a successful starting pitcher in 13 years. Am I overlooking someone? I acknowledge that the free agent market for pitchers is never good for buyers. I also see effort through blind hope in bringing in guys like Humber or Galarraga.

It sucks all around. But I can't give the new guys a pass in my tiny brain, maybe because I think Crane is a major fuckstick.

[Limey]

I don't remember hearing the Landry's story. I'd like to, though, because in your case there's always a difference between an event-based boycott and not going somewhere simply because the food sucks.

Actually, Landry's is more of the latter.  Simply, I have no truck with their Borgesque strategy of buying up quality independent restaurants, removing the subtlety from the menu and replacing it with too much butter and salt, and then stamping them out like a production line all over the country.

[Limey]

The line between a major league caliber and not a major league caliber is very thin. You have to find out. But the reason they are losing is not because they basically are wrong in their evaluations or are purposely trying to lose. The reason they can't win consistently is because the organization is bypassing integrating young players that may (or may not) help you win into a core group of veterans. Houston is doing that differently than anyone else, hoping the kids respond to the challenge.

That they aren't is not because the strategy is to lose or even that some of these guys are not major league caliber. The reason is that Houston is in no position to integrate young with veteran... they had no farm system and they had players that were too old (other than Pence and Bourn). When Bagwell and Biggio passed the baton to Oswalt and Berkman, then Berkman and Oswalt had no one to pass the baton to unless you count Pence... and we all saw how that didn't work out. Pence, I don't care how much they tried to sell it... was not a leader nor good veteran to build around. He was so undiciplined and was a good addition to a team that had that in place already.

Add to this that McLane wanted out and you have a disaster of an organization to have to revive. I just plain do not like people saying Houston is losing on purpose... "tanking"... that's a bad word to me.

I understand exactly what the Astros are doing.  And I firmly believe that the Astros know that the players they are trotting out every night currently, are not major league calibre players.  I agree that they are doing this as part of a clear long-term strategy, and I have no problem with it per se, I just disagree with your comment that the club thinks it can win with this roster.  They know they can't.  Everybody knows they can't.  Even the players.  But they play hard every night to try to stand out and stay in the bigs when the Astros move them aside as the prospects come through.

[Limey]

This is where I have a bit of difficulty. I believe the new ownership group has said, "fuck it," in term of fielding a competitive team for now. I resent the hell out of that attitude but I understand the choice, given what they were left with. I realize there is a natural ebb and flow of talent and over time every team will experience a fluctuation in it's ability to compete, but one should always try to make the best effort to win. I understand the spin, to not have mediocre vets take ABs away from unproven youngsters with potential. However, I also believe and history has proven, the best place to develop talent is in the Minors. I think you can hurt a player's growth buy putting one in a position where they haven't sufficiently proven themselves. A chance to fail is a chance to succeed but the odds aren't the same. I just feel that a team has a responsibility to the other teams and it's fans to make a better effort to put a more competitive team on the field.

The problem with the Astros it that their major weakness is at pitching and that was a problem anyone could have seen coming five or six years ago. And for this I can't wholly blame Crane and company because this is what they bought. Other than Wandy, the Astros haven't developed a successful starting pitcher in 13 years. Am I overlooking someone? I acknowledge that the free agent market for pitchers is never good for buyers. I also see effort through blind hope in bringing in guys like Humber or Galarraga.

It sucks all around. But I can't give the new guys a pass in my tiny brain, maybe because I think Crane is a major fuckstick.

I also think that Crane is a fuckstick, but that doesn't make him unique amongst major sports franchise owners.

However, I think what we are seeing here is the Astros blazing a trail that will be followed by other teams in the future.  They are taking maximum advantage of a recent rule change and, assuming it works, other teams in similar predicaments will do the same.

What's the difference between what the Astros are doing here and what, say, the Colts did two years ago?  They really laid down over the last couple of games to ensure they got the worst record and the opportunity to draft Luck.  Then they roared right back into the playoffs.  Things happen faster in football, because of the college system maturing the players for them, but this is the same strategy that the Astros are using.  It's just that this is the first time it's been deployed in baseball.

[Noe]

Tanking can be a broad term.  I do think the Astros are rebuilding with a solid organizational strategy that focuses on development of the next generation at the expense of the current major league team.  Given the structure of the current MLBPA, there is signficant growth advantage to being the absolutely worst team in MLB.  And I think they are embracing and exploiting that structure for the very best long term interests of the franchise.  And I also think it's valid, fair, and, so far, appears to be moving in the right direction.  Thanks Jeffy!

But is that tanking?  I certainly don't think that any player isn't trying their damn level best every game, which is how I see tanking.  I don't think the front office has instructed the players or staff to go out and lose.  But I do think the front office has little interest, and rightly so, in trying to put a squad on the field that could win the most games that the front office could conceivably assemble.  And I think that's fine, given the long term and legitimately competitive strategy Luhnow has put in place.

Completely agree. The look on Bo Porter's face would tell anyone he and his players care little about the talk about purposely losing.

[Noe]

This is where I have a bit of difficulty. I believe the new ownership group has said, "fuck it," in term of fielding a competitive team for now. I resent the hell out of that attitude but I understand the choice, given what they were left with. I realize there is a natural ebb and flow of talent and over time every team will experience a fluctuation in it's ability to compete, but one should always try to make the best effort to win. I understand the spin, to not have mediocre vets take ABs away from unproven youngsters with potential. However, I also believe and history has proven, the best place to develop talent is in the Minors. I think you can hurt a player's growth buy putting one in a position where they haven't sufficiently proven themselves. A chance to fail is a chance to succeed but the odds aren't the same. I just feel that a team has a responsibility to the other teams and it's fans to make a better effort to put a more competitive team on the field.

The problem with the Astros it that their major weakness is at pitching and that was a problem anyone could have seen coming five or six years ago. And for this I can't wholly blame Crane and company because this is what they bought. Other than Wandy, the Astros haven't developed a successful starting pitcher in 13 years. Am I overlooking someone? I acknowledge that the free agent market for pitchers is never good for buyers. I also see effort through blind hope in bringing in guys like Humber or Galarraga.

It sucks all around. But I can't give the new guys a pass in my tiny brain, maybe because I think Crane is a major fuckstick.

I do want to separate the foibles of Crane with the stategery of Luhnow, sorta speak. What you said in your opening sentence is correct in that given the lack of veterans that were 1) still young enough, and 2) inexpensive enough to build around plus nothing in the farm to build from, the Astros are doing something no other team in the mlb would ever do. That is choose between the likely strategy of rebuild the system while using veteran talent on the team with a good mix of young players to at minimum continue to compete. It is almost like that particular strategy would be counter-productive to rebuilding the farm system.

Where resentment may creep in for me is in five to six years from now, this organization still cries poor in terms of spending at minimum for good veteran talent that is reasonable to add to a winning young squad. If the organization instead sells off good young talent that has reached the "pay me" stage of their career, we will know at that point they intend to win with farm system kids that are under club control. THAT would make me resent them because it's never been done effectively (not even by the Marlins). You need to spend just a tad in the mlb and yes, have a good to great farm system too.

[Noe]

I understand exactly what the Astros are doing.  And I firmly believe that the Astros know that the players they are trotting out every night currently, are not major league calibre players.  I agree that they are doing this as part of a clear long-term strategy, and I have no problem with it per se, I just disagree with your comment that the club thinks it can win with this roster.  They know they can't.  Everybody knows they can't.  Even the players.  But they play hard every night to try to stand out and stay in the bigs when the Astros move them aside as the prospects come through.

I guess we are not that far apart. I don't think the Astros believe they can trot out a team that wins *consistently*, but they do believe that they have major league caliber players who in time can help. Time is the issue, not caliber. Time is usually mitigated with a good veteran crop of players, which is where the Astros have not invested because the choice they had in Pence and Bourn and no arms was not good enough. I thank my lucky stars finally someone stepped up and said "Hey look, Pence ... errr... the emperor has no clothes".

[Noe]

I also think that Crane is a fuckstick, but that doesn't make him unique amongst major sports franchise owners.

However, I think what we are seeing here is the Astros blazing a trail that will be followed by other teams in the future.  They are taking maximum advantage of a recent rule change and, assuming it works, other teams in similar predicaments will do the same.

What's the difference between what the Astros are doing here and what, say, the Colts did two years ago?  They really laid down over the last couple of games to ensure they got the worst record and the opportunity to draft Luck.  Then they roared right back into the playoffs.  Things happen faster in football, because of the college system maturing the players for them, but this is the same strategy that the Astros are using.  It's just that this is the first time it's been deployed in baseball.

It's just me mind you, but saying the Astros are laying down is too far gone a statement to me. It is as if the team meetings in Luhnow's conference room is full of cigar chomping baseball men who said "Hey, let's hire a one arm man to play first... and a peg-legged catcher... how about a blind starter... then we can assure ourselves of the number one pick!" (*rubbing hands together gleefully*). I think in the Astros case is you dance with who brung ya, and hope to heck they know how to dance because there is no time for lessons now.

[Waldo]

It's just me mind you, but saying the Astros are laying down is too far gone a statement to me. It is as if the team meetings in Luhnow's conference room is full of cigar chomping baseball men who said "Hey, let's hire a one arm man to play first... and a peg-legged catcher... how about a blind starter... then we can assure ourselves of the number one pick!" (*rubbing hands together gleefully*). I think in the Astros case is you dance with who brung ya, and hope to heck they know how to dance because there is no time for lessons now.

LIFY