Pence to Atlanta?

[BudGirl]

I heard that on the radio this morning.  No, it wasn't a sports talk show.  And saw it here.  Anyone heard anything else?

[Ron Brand]

Only Campbell's Chron post, which is linked to from your article. I'm sure the Chron story is what the radio jackals were reading.

[jaklewein]

I heard that on the radio this morning.  No, it wasn't a sports talk show.  And saw it here.  Anyone heard anything else?

Atlanta talk radio (and it's actually a guy who's opinion I value) host says rumor has the Braves are working hard to acquire a bat and he doesn't think Jonny Gomes fits the bill.  There definitely could be something to it.  I keep telling my friends here that Bourn would be the much better play (fits the pitching defense model to a tee and w/ him at the top of the lineup would increase their chances of winning 1 run games by a lot) for their team but in comparison to Pence they are not enthused.  Hilarious!

In all seriousness, if Pence does go to ATL, and if the plan is to eventually deal Bourn, I think getting Jordan Schafer back as a piece in the Pence deal would be good.  He's still a lost at the plate but he's improved this year and is a + defender in CF.  He may not be Bourn, but  he's pretty damn good and could play now.  Do we have anyone at AAA/AA capable of playing a legit CF now?

[Ron Brand]

Scouting around, I found this.

It was just reported by ESPN's Buster Olney that the Astros are now willing to deal outfielder Hunter Pence. Here is Olney's tweet:

 Buster_ESPN Buster Olney 
Sources: HOU shows willingness to trade Pence; rival executives expect he will move. Braves have prospects to make deal happen; we'll see.
 53 minutes ago

This news comes hours after the Braves beat reporter David O'Brien, from the Atlanta Journal Constitution, had reported that the Braves were closing in on a deal for a right handed hitting bat. This news also tells me Astros GM Ed Wade must have received a solid offer for Pence and he is putting it out that Pence is now available to see if another team can top the offer he received.

What can the Astros get back from the Braves? This is pure speculation, but I would say a package headed by Arodys Vizcaino, Keith Law's #11 prospect in all of baseball could get things started. The Braves could add in AAA starter Mike Minor and SS prospect Matt Lipka and have the right handed hitter they have been seeking all season.

[subnuclear]

My co-worker mentioned this to me yesterday. He said the Braves have lots of pitching.

[WakePhil]

This news comes hours after the Braves beat reporter David O'Brien, from the Atlanta Journal Constitution, had reported that the Braves were closing in on a deal for a right handed hitting bat. This news also tells me Astros GM Ed Wade must have received a solid offer for Pence and he is putting it out that Pence is now available to see if another team can top the offer he received.

I assume GMs deal on a fantasy baseball like platform for these situations. I expect that Wade just checked "available" next to Pence's name. Then he went about checking his "looking for:"

Starting Pitching - check
Bullpen - check, check, check, check, check, check (Are you sure its checked? can I put an exclamation mark on it or something...)
First Base - check (someone has to platoon with Wallace)
Second Base - check (have you seen how short our new guy is? not a ball player)
Short Stop - not checked (my boy Barmes is a great signing...Mr. Crane? are you listening...don't need a shortstop...definitely don't need a new GM...hello?)
Third Base - check
Left Field - check (oh dear god, please let this be a need. Carlos Lee, please, anyone, someone take his salary off my hands!!! P.S. Mr. Crane, I had nothing to do with this one...blame the fat boy and Uncle D)
Center Field - not checked (Michael Bourn, ladies and gentleman, our best player. Mr. Crane, are you listening? Oh...Mr. Boras, where did you just materialize from? Jim, earmuffs. Scott, Bourn is total crap.)
Right Field - check (if you take Pence off my hands, I'll need something in return. From our farm, you say? Hahahahahaha...speaking of which...)

Minor Leagues - "We are deep at absolutely no position in our farm system. Our AAA team is equivalent to a third rate independent league catering to the likes of 55 year old Ricky Henderson and Jose Canseco (or, more likely, his brother impersonating Jose). A five foot four second baseman just rocketed through our farm system in about 12 days. We will take literally anything."

[Bench]

Rosenthal says, for what it's worth, The Houston Astros’ Hunter Pence, at least at the moment, is not the Braves’ slugger of choice, two major league sources say.

[Jacksonian]

Do we have anyone at AAA/AA capable of playing a legit CF now?

Bourgeois is rehabbing at AAA right now.

[WakePhil]

Philly friend just passed this along

The Astros would be willing to make a trade but the Phillies would have to part ways with Jonathan Singleton (Single-A Clearwater), John Mayberry (MLB), Jarred Cosart (Single-A Clearwater), and/or Justin De Fratus (Triple-A Lehigh Valley). 

[Jacksonian]

Philly friend just passed this along
 

Without both Singleton and Cosart I cannot imagine Wade pulling the trigger.

[HudsonHawk]

I keep telling my friends here that Bourn would be the much better play (fits the pitching defense model to a tee and w/ him at the top of the lineup would increase their chances of winning 1 run games by a lot) for their team but in comparison to Pence they are not enthused.  Hilarious!

I'm gonna be majorly bummed if they trade Bourn.

[JimR]

Philly friend just passed this along
 

as of last week, the Phillies can add players only by eliminating salary first. they are right up against the luxury tax.

[geezerdonk]

Mayberry is the spitting image of his dad.

[JimR]

I'm gonna be majorly bummed if they trade Bourn.

i would too.

[Bench]

I'm gonna be majorly bummed if they trade Bourn.

Bourn is the only reliably enjoyable reason to watch the team at all. 

[juliogotay]

i would too.

IMO better to get solid prospects for him than a couple of draft picks after Boras takes him to FA which is, what two years?

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

Gammons on Pence/Wandy, via Twitter:

Astros cannot find requisite 3-4 player offer for Pence.. Likely staying. Wandy market hurt by AL teams wary of NL pitchers, Suppan Effect

[HudsonHawk]

Bourn is the only reliably enjoyable reason to watch the team at all. 

I just don't understand the thinking that they need to rebuild, so they have no use for a 28-year old, gold glove centerfielding, .290 lead-off hitting, base-stealing machine.  Plus, you're right...he's the best reason to watch the Astros. 

[HudsonHawk]

IMO better to get solid prospects for him than a couple of draft picks after Boras takes him to FA which is, what two years?

What kind of prospects do you want?  A gold glove centerfielder?  A leadoff hitter?  A base stealer?  It'd be nice if they could find one of those guys who's under 30.

[Jacksonian]

What kind of prospects do you want?  A gold glove centerfielder?  A leadoff hitter?  A base stealer?  It'd be nice if they could find one of those guys who's under 30.

I agree they should keep him.  But I also agree he will leave when he hits free agency.  If this is true at what point do you try to maximize the return value of his exit?  Trade or offering arb and getting draft picks?

[Reuben]

Gammons on Pence/Wandy, via Twitter:

What the hell?? Wandy has fucking zero in common with Jeff fucking Suppan.

[astrosfan76]

Gammons on Pence/Wandy, via Twitter:

Sucks for us since the Trade Deadline is today.  If only there was more time so teams could increase their offers...

[Rebel Jew]

What the hell?? Wandy has fucking zero in common with Jeff fucking Suppan.

Hmmmmm, let's see if we can put the pieces together... Gammons is a smug Boston retard, NL pitcher Suppan was a failed in-season trade by the period-blood Sox-- therefore, all AL teams are wary of trading for NL starting pitching. It all makes sense!

[HudsonHawk]

I agree they should keep him.  But I also agree he will leave when he hits free agency.  If this is true at what point do you try to maximize the return value of his exit?  Trade or offering arb and getting draft picks?

Why do you assume he'll leave via FA?  I don't think that's a given.

[Reuben]

Why do you assume he'll leave via FA?  I don't think that's a given.

Because he switched to Bora$$ recently. No, its not a 100% certainty, but you'd have to think its pretty likely. I hope he stays too, and I don't see why they need to trade him now, as he wouldn't be a FA until after 2012.

[BudGirl]

Why do you assume he'll leave via FA?  I don't think that's a given.

I don't assume he'll stay.  He may want to go to a team that has a chance of winning.  If the Astros aren't heading that direction, I can understand why he'd leave.

[Jacksonian]

Why do you assume he'll leave via FA?  I don't think that's a given.

Boras. And how many centerfielders of his ability can also leadoff at his caliber?  He's going to command a pretty penny, and Crane appears intent at reducing payroll.

[JimR]

I don't assume he'll stay.  He may want to go to a team that has a chance of winning.  If the Astros aren't heading that direction, I can understand why he'd leave.

you do not hire Boras to win.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[BudGirl]

you do not hire Boras to win.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Carlos Beltran would beg to disagree.

[HudsonHawk]

No, its not a 100% certainty, but you'd have to think its pretty likely.

Why do I have to think that?  This isn't Russia...is this Russia?

Seriously...I see no reason to automatically assume that the Astros cannot have players represented by Boras.

[HudsonHawk]

And how many centerfielders of his ability can also leadoff at his caliber?

Very few.  Which is why I'm not on the "trade him now" bandwagon.

[hostros7]

Juan Pierre's 2006 deal might not be a bad comp for Bourn, and you could argue that Pierre had a more established track record prior to the deal than Bourn may or may not have by the end of next year.  5 years, $45mm doesn't seem outlandish for a GG CF, leadoff man, and SB leader.  My preference would be 3 or 4 years but need to see what market dictates. 

Whatever it is, Bourn is not a power arm or power bat.  He probably won't get crazy money. 

[Ron Brand]

Another tweet from Olney:

The Phillies would prefer to structure any of their Hunter Pence offers around Vance Worley.

[Jacksonian]

Very few.  Which is why I'm not on the "trade him now" bandwagon.

I'm not either, but unlike us Wade has to consider everything.  Wade has 4 time periods to consider right now regarding Bourn's value and potential exit compensation versus the chances of keeping him with a contract Crane and Bourn agree to.  

Will he get more value now?  
This winter?  
Next July?  
For offering arb winter 2012 and either keeping him or getting some draft compensation?

Personally I think he'll get more value now.  I think the longer they wait the less return he'll command.  It is not a given that Bourn will be a type A free agent in 2012 because he's not a power hitter and speed isn't really considered the way power is in the ranking formula.

[HudsonHawk]

I'm not either, but unlike us Wade has to consider everything.  Wade has 4 time periods to consider right now regarding Bourn's value and potential exit compensation versus the chances of keeping him with a contract Crane and Bourn agree to.  

Will he get more value now?  
This winter?  
Next July?  
For offering arb winter 2012 and either keeping him or getting some draft compensation?

Personally I think he'll get more value now.  I think the longer they wait the less return he'll command.  It is not a given that Bourn will be a type A free agent in 2012 because he's not a power hitter and speed isn't really considered the way power is in the ranking formula.

I think you're missing the obvious value...as the Astros centerfielder for the next 6-8 years.

[Jacksonian]

Juan Pierre's 2006 deal might not be a bad comp for Bourn, and you could argue that Pierre had a more established track record prior to the deal than Bourn may or may not have by the end of next year.  5 years, $45mm doesn't seem outlandish for a GG CF, leadoff man, and SB leader.  My preference would be 3 or 4 years but need to see what market dictates. 

Whatever it is, Bourn is not a power arm or power bat.  He probably won't get crazy money. 

Who was Pierre's agent in 06?  I have great respect for Boras's ability to get the maximum free agent contract versus any other agent.  Also, is there any difference in FA contract value now versus 06?

[Jacksonian]

I think you're missing the obvious value...as the Astros centerfielder for the next 6-8 years.

I'm not.  I'd like him to retire an Astro.  But, you're not considering Crane may not be willing to add that size contract.

[moriartp]

Another tweet from Olney:

The Phillies would prefer to structure any of their Hunter Pence offers around Vance Worley.

Yes, I imagine they would.

[HudsonHawk]

I'm not.  I'd like him to retire an Astro.  But, you're not considering Crane may not be willing to add that size contract.

I recognize that he might not.  I just don't agree that it's a given, and therefore a necessity to do it at this time.

[Jacksonian]

Another tweet from Olney:
The Phillies would prefer to structure any of their Hunter Pence offers around Vance Worley.

Heh.  The Phillies don't have enough talent to get Pence without including either Cosart and/or Singleton.

[Jacksonian]

I recognize that he might not.  I just don't agree that it's a given, and therefore a necessity to do it at this time.

I cannot reconcile Crane's desire for a reduced payroll right now and Boras's ability to maximize free agent contracts.  My conclusion then is that it is a given.

[austro]

I wonder if Crane's agreement with McLane includes any stipluations about players that cannot be moved before the team changes hands.

[Limey]

Another tweet from Olney:

The Phillies would prefer to structure any of their Hunter Pence offers around Vance Worley.

I'm sure the Astros would structure any offers around Carlos Lee.  But any structure around Carlos Lee could be seen from space.

[Clark in Denver]

I cannot reconcile Crane's desire for a reduced payroll right now and Boras's ability to maximize free agent contracts.  My conclusion then is that it is a given.

Isn't Crane's desire to reduce payroll speculation at this point? Has he actually come out and said something, or are we just operating under the assumption that Jon Heyman knows what he is talking about?

[Reuben]

I wonder if Crane's agreement with McLane includes any stipluations about players that cannot be moved before the team changes hands.

The Chron reports that he Crane is being kept in the loop about any possible deals, and would need to approve any that happen (as he apparently did with the Kepp trade). I also saw a report that he has not told Wade that he has to keep any specific players.

[matadorph]

Boras is immaterial imo. If I'm the new owner, I don't trade the face of the franchise unless another team makes an overwhelming offer. Trade Hunter Pence instead.

[JimR]

Isn't Crane's desire to reduce payroll speculation at this point? Has he actually come out and said something, or are we just operating under the assumption that Jon Heyman knows what he is talking about?

folks close to the Astros' management believe he will do this.

[MusicMan]

Isn't Crane's desire to reduce payroll speculation at this point? Has he actually come out and said something, or are we just operating under the assumption that Jon Heyman knows what he is talking about?

Many different people have heard the same thing from non media sources. There's enough smoke to call it fire.

[outlookdude]

I don’t post anywhere frequently, but read a number of different boards…..The story that seems very consistent across every board is that Crane sold partners a business plan that included a $60M payroll cap, building from the minor league system, avoiding long term contracts, and letting FA eligible players walk. The claim is also that he sold a partnership that was about making money over winning baseball games.

As rampant as the stories are, and regardless of the seemingly high quality sources, I still have my doubts.

If you had a ton of money and wanted to make a lot more is baseball the investment you would make? In Houston? Now? There are a lot of safer and faster ways to make money.

Now, if you can play cheap and still win you might be on to something. But, while that has been done it has never been accomplished consistently.

I have no trouble believing that Crane envisions blowing up this team, reducing payroll, and building from within. But, when the time comes that there is a chance to win by spending a little money (hopefully during my lifetime) he may sing a different tune. What he sold his partners and what he actually intends is not necessarily the same thing.

He may have just sold what they wanted to hear knowing that in time they would see that a little spending was going to be necessary to turn the profit they want.

Or, he may really think he can win with a lower payroll because he is smarter than everyone else. Drayton probably told him that he was.

[Jacksonian]

I don’t post anywhere frequently, but read a number of different boards…..The story that seems very consistent across every board is that Crane sold partners a business plan that included a $60M payroll cap, building from the minor league system, avoiding long term contracts, and letting FA eligible players walk. The claim is also that he sold a partnership that was about making money over winning baseball games.

As rampant as the stories are, and regardless of the seemingly high quality sources, I still have my doubts.

If you had a ton of money and wanted to make a lot more is baseball the investment you would make? In Houston? Now? There are a lot of safer and faster ways to make money.

Now, if you can play cheap and still win you might be on to something. But, while that has been done it has never been accomplished consistently.

I have no trouble believing that Crane envisions blowing up this team, reducing payroll, and building from within. But, when the time comes that there is a chance to win by spending a little money (hopefully during my lifetime) he may sing a different tune. What he sold his partners and what he actually intends is not necessarily the same thing.

He may have just sold what they wanted to hear knowing that in time they would see that a little spending was going to be necessary to turn the profit they want.

Or, he may really think he can win with a lower payroll because he is smarter than everyone else. Drayton probably told him that he was.

If Crane believes in the current Rays model then this is pretty close.

[roadrunner]

The difference is the fanbases of Tampa and Houston.  While Houston may not have the best fanbase, when the team is winning it is a top 10 attendance market.  Even when Tampa is winning they can't draw fans, which results in a lower return, which forces them to let guys like Carl Crawford walk. 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Crane stripping this team and starting over, but hopefully his plan is to make the expensive additions wisely when the time is right.

[Reuben]

If Crane believes in the current Rays model then this is pretty close.

But doesn't the Houston baseball market (esp. including the upcoming TV network) bring in a lot more revenue than Tampa? $60mil seems like a very low payroll to maintain in this market.

It also remains to be seen if the Rays can sustain their winning ways in years to come now that they're not picking so high in the draft every year...

edit: roadrunner just said pretty much what I was trying to say, but better.

[Noe]

I don’t post anywhere frequently, but read a number of different boards…..The story that seems very consistent across every board is that Crane sold partners a business plan that included a $60M payroll cap, building from the minor league system, avoiding long term contracts, and letting FA eligible players walk. The claim is also that he sold a partnership that was about making money over winning baseball games.

As rampant as the stories are, and regardless of the seemingly high quality sources, I still have my doubts.

If you had a ton of money and wanted to make a lot more is baseball the investment you would make? In Houston? Now? There are a lot of safer and faster ways to make money.

Now, if you can play cheap and still win you might be on to something. But, while that has been done it has never been accomplished consistently.

I have no trouble believing that Crane envisions blowing up this team, reducing payroll, and building from within. But, when the time comes that there is a chance to win by spending a little money (hopefully during my lifetime) he may sing a different tune. What he sold his partners and what he actually intends is not necessarily the same thing.

He may have just sold what they wanted to hear knowing that in time they would see that a little spending was going to be necessary to turn the profit they want.

Or, he may really think he can win with a lower payroll because he is smarter than everyone else. Drayton probably told him that he was.

Very close to what will happen and why.  Good job!

[roadrunner]

The difference is the fanbases of Tampa and Houston.  While Houston may not have the best fanbase, when the team is winning it is a top 10 attendance market.  Even when Tampa is winning they can't draw fans, which results in a lower return, which forces them to let guys like Carl Crawford walk. 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Crane stripping this team and starting over, but hopefully his plan is to make the expensive additions wisely when the time is right.

Right.  Houston is closer to being a Philadelphia market than being a Tampa market.  I know the Rays make money, but I'd bet the Phillies make a lot more.

It also makes sense that Friedman would jump to get in a bigger market to play in.

[Noe]

The difference is the fanbases of Tampa and Houston.  While Houston may not have the best fanbase, when the team is winning it is a top 10 attendance market.  Even when Tampa is winning they can't draw fans, which results in a lower return, which forces them to let guys like Carl Crawford walk.  

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Crane stripping this team and starting over, but hopefully his plan is to make the expensive additions wisely when the time is right.

They need to get the arms back in the farm system and nowadays, the good to great arms know their market value when drafted.  There has been a concerted effort by draftees that are good to great arms to use college as a leverage to get the bucks.  Houston was ill prepared to play that game, instead opting for finding the gem that is in the rough and they could polish.  With Crane (and only my speculation here), the draftee arm that wants payback will get a much more serious consideration than under the McLane regime.  Not that it is wrong to have a Bud Norris in your system or a Jordan Lyles, but you need those guys to be exactly what they are turning out to be: mid to lower rotation type of guys.  By spending on top arm draftees, this farm system will become the envy again of all organizations.  That means changing the strategy on spending for drafted players that are good to great arms.

That may not put AIS but it will get this organization turned around with players that will be in the system for a while and not necessarily a FA arm like a Barry Zito that would be a wasted spend.  You could also hire Drinkin' Dave Duncan and have him work miracles with the likes of a Bud Norris, but even now, Duncan's magic seems to have hit a snag.  I believe the thinking for winning organizations is to build from young, good arms from now on, and guess what.... it's gonna cost money.  Money you really don't want to spend on a Jayson Werth for example.  Not a good strategy for building a winner.

BTW - everyone mentions the Tampa Bay model, but guess who is doing well using a similar model: Pittsburgh.  Finally they paid attention to defense to go with good young pitching and of course just enough offense.  Nice to see Pittsburgh no longer diluting themselves that they are still the slugging team of old and reinvent themselves into the good young pitching rich team with solid defense.

[Noe]

On the Pence rumors:

From what I understand, Carlos Beltran is the player every team is coveting if they are going to go get an outfielder.  After that, the list gets jumbled based on who the GM and organization may be.  There is nobody on a list behind Beltran that is clearly the number 2 get for anybody.  Pence is just like any other possible acquire for some GMs, who aren't fooling themselves with Pence's all-star credentials.  He is a good player, but not the !B to Beltran's 1A.

So from what I understand, if a team feels they cannot compete for Beltran's services in a trade with New York, then they'll look at not only Pence, but at guys like Wilkerson and other middle of the pack outfielders.  That clearly doesn't tell me Pence is a "we have to get this guy" type of trade fodder (like Oswalt was last year).  In fact, he's more like Berkman in some ways... flawed, but hey, if the price is right.... we will take him off your hands (if you're selling to unload salaries).

A classic game of chicken and who will blink first.

[Ty in Tampa]

It also makes sense that Friedman would jump to get in a bigger market to play in.

That market may just be Tampa.

[Bench]

But doesn't the Houston baseball market (esp. including the upcoming TV network) bring in a lot more revenue than Tampa? $60mil seems like a very low payroll to maintain in this market.

It also remains to be seen if the Rays can sustain their winning ways in years to come now that they're not picking so high in the draft every year...

edit: roadrunner just said pretty much what I was trying to say, but better.

Exactly.  If the plan is to run a small market team in an upper middle market then I think that's pretty shitty.

[Ron Brand]

Ricky Bennett watching Phillies prospect Jesse Biddle tonight.

Biddle, who was selected by the Phillies 27th overall in the 2010 MLB Draft, was rated as the No. 8 prospect in the Phillies' system by Baseball America prior to the season.

[BUWebguy]

Ricky Bennett watching Phillies prospect Jesse Biddle tonight.

At the same time a Boston reporter says Pence isn't going anywhere.

[astrosfan76]

Ricky Bennett watching Phillies prospect Jesse Biddle tonight.

Stat line shows a decent outing for Biddle:  6 innings, 3 hits, 2 runs, 3 walks, 8 K's.  He also had a wild pitch. 

[Reuben]

On the Pence rumors:

From what I understand, Carlos Beltran is the player every team is coveting if they are going to go get an outfielder.  After that, the list gets jumbled based on who the GM and organization may be.  There is nobody on a list behind Beltran that is clearly the number 2 get for anybody.  Pence is just like any other possible acquire for some GMs, who aren't fooling themselves with Pence's all-star credentials.  He is a good player, but not the !B to Beltran's 1A.

So from what I understand, if a team feels they cannot compete for Beltran's services in a trade with New York, then they'll look at not only Pence, but at guys like Wilkerson and other middle of the pack outfielders.  That clearly doesn't tell me Pence is a "we have to get this guy" type of trade fodder (like Oswalt was last year).  In fact, he's more like Berkman in some ways... flawed, but hey, if the price is right.... we will take him off your hands (if you're selling to unload salaries).

A classic game of chicken and who will blink first.

I disagree. I think after Beltran, Pence is the clear #2 get. Who are the other bats, Willingham? Ludwick? Pretty one-dimensional players, and young Mr. Pence(!!!) has the advantage of possibly being viewed as "coming into his prime", as well as two more years of team control left, after this year, before he hits FA, so some teams (I'm thinking Red Sox, maybe Philly too) may even prefer that as opposed to paying through the nose in prospects for Mr. Fragile-Handle-With-Care himself, Carlos Beltran, only to see him leave at the end of the season.

I definitely don't think the Astros would move Pence in a salary-dump-type trade. They are looking to get back some key pieces for the future if they move him at all.

Another guy barely mentioned, but who's a pretty good player himself at a key position, is Barmes... I wonder if they're fielding a lot of offers for him? I guess Wade deserves some credit for that trade, by the way. He hasn't hit HR like they hoped, but he's played a great SS and been decent with the bat.

[sporadic]

I definitely don't think the Astros would move Pence in a salary-dump-type trade. They are looking to get back some key pieces for the future if they move him at all.

by making Hunter the FOTF the Astros put themseles in the position to HAVE to get considerable return, more than what Hunter is actually worth, else they will look silly for moving him.  Joe Call-in will go apeshit if they move Hunter for what he is legitimately worth, and the Astros themselves would be at least partly to blame for that (not that they should care about Joe Call-in when making baseball moves)

[mrpink]

Another guy barely mentioned, but who's a pretty good player himself at a key position, is Barmes... I wonder if they're fielding a lot of offers for him? I guess Wade deserves some credit for that trade, by the way. He hasn't hit HR like they hoped, but he's played a great SS and been decent with the bat.

I'm not sure how much credit he should get.  He traded away a pitcher with tremendous upside but a frustrating injury history for Clint Barmes and his ample salary. This was after (I think anyway) he traded Lindstrom presumably to dump salary. It's hard to predict the success Paulino has had, now in KC after tanking briefly in Colorado, but I don't see that trade as a win for Wade.

[hostros7]

I'm not sure how much credit he should get.  He traded away a pitcher with tremendous upside but a frustrating injury history for Clint Barmes and his ample salary. This was after (I think anyway) he traded Lindstrom presumably to dump salary. It's hard to predict the success Paulino has had, now in KC after tanking briefly in Colorado, but I don't see that trade as a win for Wade.

I don't disagree with everything you say here, but the reality is that the Astros needed a shortstop and didn't have money to spend to acquire one via free agency.  Wade was provided a shitty mandate and had to get a guy who was at least kind of capable of playing short at the major league level, which he did.  While Paulino has upside, he also had plenty of chances and failed during most, if not all, of them.

[moriartp]

Paulino was also out of options, so if he didn't succeed in ST the Astros were likely to lose him anyway.

[Ron Brand]

Friday's trade rumor from Philadelphia:

Astros outfielder Hunter Pence has emerged as the team’s top target as it tries to add a productive right-handed bat to its lineup.

“He’s the guy they want,” a baseball official familiar with the trade landscape said. “But the price is very high.”

The Astros would probably want a package that begins with Domonic Brown. The Phils might also have to include another top talent such as Jonathan Singleton, a first baseman and outstanding hitting prospect, or a pitching prospect.

[chuck]

I wonder if Wade feels comfortable dealing with Philadelphia.

[Reuben]

I wonder if Wade feels comfortable dealing with Philadelphia.

You LEAVE Britney Wade ALONE!!!

[JimR]

I'm not sure how much credit he should get.  He traded away a pitcher with tremendous upside but a frustrating injury history for Clint Barmes and his ample salary. This was after (I think anyway) he traded Lindstrom presumably to dump salary. It's hard to predict the success Paulino has had, now in KC after tanking briefly in Colorado, but I don't see that trade as a win for Wade.

Paulino? tremendous upside? not when he was traded, he did not, and he proved it in Colorado. he was given multiple chances to succeed in a variety of roles, and he failed at every ome. Barmes for Paulino was lopsided in the Astros' favor.

your post is Wade hate, Philly-style, with a touch of Baseball Prospectus dogma thrown in for good measure.

[astrosfan76]

Per Morosi tweet:

#DBacks have talked with #Astros about a Wandy Rodriguez trade, sources say, but no deal close. #MLB

Not much, but it's something.

[Mr. Happy]

Pailino? tremendous upside? not when he was traded, he did not, and he proved it in Colorado. he was given multiple chances to succeed in a variety of roles, and he failed at every ome. Barmes for Paulino was lopsided in the Astros' favor.

your post is Wade hate, Philly-style, with a touch of Baseball Prospectus dogma thrown in for good measure.

You're spot on, Coach. Paulino had every opportunity to shine here. He has plus stuff but must have a head problem. Another Tim Redding, but with better stuff?

[mrpink]

Paulino? tremendous upside? not when he was traded, he did not, and he proved it in Colorado. he was given multiple chances to succeed in a variety of roles, and he failed at every ome. Barmes for Paulino was lopsided in the Astros' favor.

your post is Wade hate, Philly-style, with a touch of Baseball Prospectus dogma thrown in for good measure.

I'll stand by my tremendous upside remark. I remember a stretch of several starts last year that were pretty damn impressive. He then got hurt after that and never started another game. That about sums it up for me; ton of upside but too many injuries. Maybe had he been given an extended chance to succeed in one role (a la Wandy) he could have been successful. Maybe not.

I don't know how he pitched in spring training, but I don't see how he proved anything in Colorado after 14 innings.

Also, I forgot he was out of options and Wade WAS in a tight spot trying to get a major league SS for nothing. My subdued ire should probably be directed at Drayton for requesting a SS in the first place and I still don't understand the financials of the deal. Did he really have to ditch Lindstrom so there was money to pay Barmes and Hall?
I never heard anything about Paulino being a headcase. Is there really something to this or is that remark just because Timmah was the last Astro pitcher with this much talent to flame out?

[Ron Brand]

Lindstrom was moved because of the fear that he was going to break down again and would be unreliable because of his back problems and his violent delivery was a big warning sign.

That's the problem with Paulino - he'd drive you crazy because he had a good arm and he had lots of potential but at some point you just have to move on and let someone else deal with his chronic inability to string it together. Picking up Barmes for him was a great move because Houston didn't have a major-league ready shortstop.

[mrpink]

Lindstrom was moved because of the fear that he was going to break down again and would be unreliable because of his back problems and his violent delivery was a big warning sign.

That's the problem with Paulino - he'd drive you crazy because he had a good arm and he had lots of potential but at some point you just have to move on and let someone else deal with his chronic inability to string it together. Picking up Barmes for him was a great move because Houston didn't have a major-league ready shortstop.

"I would love to have Lindstrom still here," Astros general manager Ed Wade said. "We had to do some things economically, and Matt was sort of a victim of that.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/bb/7435311.html
I understand the frustration with Paulino, I'm just not ready to call that trade a great move or even a win for the Astros until I see a little more.

[Ron Brand]

"I would love to have Lindstrom still here," Astros general manager Ed Wade said. "We had to do some things economically, and Matt was sort of a victim of that.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/bb/7435311.html

They weren't going to keep him and pay him when they were afraid that he'd break down. At the time, Lyon was a good choice, they had doubled up on closers and were able to deal from a position of strength and get the SS they needed.

[VirtualBob]

You're spot on, Coach. Paulino had every opportunity to shine here. He has plus stuff but must have a head problem. Another Tim Redding, but with better stuff?

I think his problem was shoulder/arm related, not head-case.  Whatever ... he certainly never fulfilled the promise, and I agree that the Astros got the better of the trade.  If he suddenly turns it all around and stays healthy in KC, so much the better; I wish him well.  But if the 'stros had tried to run him out every 5th day and he performed per expectations, that would have been a disaster.  Good on Wade for this one.

[Clark in Denver]

I understand the frustration with Paulino, I'm just not ready to call that trade a great move or even a win for the Astros until I see a little more.

Why? The Rockies released him. The Astros could have signed him again a couple of months ago. They didn't. He is now 1-8 with the Royals.

Barmes is a good shortstop, and from what I have heard when he was with the Rockies, a great clubhouse guy.

[Reuben]

Why? The Rockies released him. The Astros could have signed him again a couple of months ago. They didn't. He is now 1-8 with the Royals.

Barmes is a good shortstop, and from what I have heard when he was with the Rockies, a great clubhouse guy.

He also might be the best SS available at the deadline (I'm assuming the Astros are listening to offers for him). mlbtr

[JimR]

I think his problem was shoulder/arm related, not head-case.  Whatever ... he certainly never fulfilled the promise, and I agree that the Astros got the better of the trade.  If he suddenly turns it all around and stays healthy in KC, so much the better; I wish him well.  But if the 'stros had tried to run him out every 5th day and he performed per expectations, that would have been a disaster.  Good on Wade for this one.

i heard it was a little of both by the end if his tenure.

[JimR]

I'll stand by my tremendous upside remark. I remember a stretch of several starts last year that were pretty damn impressive. He then got hurt after that and never started another game. That about sums it up for me; ton of upside but too many injuries. Maybe had he been given an extended chance to succeed in one role (a la Wandy) he could have been successful. Maybe not.

I don't know how he pitched in spring training, but I don't see how he proved anything in Colorado after 14 innings.

if you "stand by" that, you do not like Wade, and you're being impossibly stubborn.

he proved he could not pitch at the level the Rockies wanted/needed.

[mrpink]

if you "stand by" that, you do not like Wade, and you're being impossibly stubborn.

he proved he could not pitch at the level the Rockies wanted/needed.

How so?  Just because I disagree with the guy doesn't mean I don't like him.  Jim, I don't agree with a ton of things you write on here but I still wouldn't mind sharing some beers with ya.

And yes, I am being stubborn.  When Paulino fails with KC as most believe he will do, I'll admit my misconception about his true talent level.

[JimR]

How so?  Just because I disagree with the guy doesn't mean I don't like him.  Jim, I don't agree with a ton of things you write on here but I still wouldn't mind sharing some beers with ya.

And yes, I am being stubborn.  When Paulino fails with KC as most believe he will do, I'll admit my misconception about his true talent level.

so i'm going to go drink beer with a guy who disagrees with "a ton" of things i write? why would i do that? remind me.

[Mr. Happy]

How so?  Just because I disagree with the guy doesn't mean I don't like him.  Jim, I don't agree with a ton of things you write on here but I still wouldn't mind sharing some beers with ya.

This is an admission that you don't know shit about baseball.

[mrpink]

so i'm going to go drink beer with a guy who disagrees with "a ton" of things i write? why would i do that? remind me.

Sorry, I honestly didn't mean to insult and should have been more specific.  It's a beer and queso thing.  I respect the hell out of your opinions all things baseball.

[JimR]

Sorry, I honestly didn't mean to insult and should have been more specific.  It's a beer and queso thing.  I respect the hell out of your opinions all things baseball.

i am not insulted at all but am confused. you buy the first one, and we can scream at each other.

[mrpink]

i am not insulted at all but am confused. you buy the first one, and we can scream at each other.

Sounds good.  Next time you're driving through New Braunfels let me know and I'll make it happen.

[JimR]

Sounds good.  Next time you're driving through New Braunfels let me know and I'll make it happen.

hey, the road runs both ways. we could meet at Whip In.

[mrpink]

hey, the road runs both ways. we could meet at Whip In.

I've seen that place but never stopped there so I had to google it.  It looks pretty badass.  I occasionally work in Austin.  If you're serious I'll PM you next time I'm up there.

[JimR]

I've seen that place but never stopped there so I had to google it.  It looks pretty badass.  I occasionally work in Austin.  If you're serious I'll PM you next time I'm up there.

sure, do. maybe i'll drag Mark along. it is a good spot.

[MRaup]

sure, do. maybe i'll drag Mark along. it is a good spot.

Good idea. I'm a way louder screamer than the old man.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

sure, do. maybe i'll drag Mark along. it is a good spot.

Hey, let me know. I'm just down the street from the Whip-In. I'm not much of a screamer.

[Ron Brand]

Hey, let me know. I'm just down the street from the Whip-In. I'm not much of a screamer.

I don't want to pile on, but if there's room at the bar...

[chuck]

I've seen that place but never stopped there so I had to google it.  It looks pretty badass.  I occasionally work in Austin.  If you're serious I'll PM you next time I'm up there.

I'm with you on this deal. I've driven past it 5,000 times but it never occurred to me it was anything other than a place for the tattooed 78704 crowd to buy their cigarettes. How the fuck was I supposed to know there's a Gujarati restaurant hidden in there?

[Ron Brand]

I'm with you on this deal. I've driven past it 5,000 times but it never occurred to me it was anything other than a place for the tattooed 78704 crowd to buy their cigarettes. How the fuck was I supposed to know there's a Gujarati restaurant hidden in there?

Food's good, too.

[chuck]

Food's good, too.

You didn't have to tell me, I knew just from looking at those kooks. I mean, you go to the trouble of hiding a Gujarati restaurant in the back of a Pik'n Pak on I-35 and you're damn right the Kerala fish curry's going to be good.

[remy]

I don't want to pile on, but if there's room at the bar...

Should we just go ahead and schedule The Gathering: Austin 2011?  Do they even have a TV there so we can mock cheer for our team while we scream at each other?

[Ron Brand]

Should we just go ahead and schedule The Gathering: Austin 2011?  Do they even have a TV there so we can mock cheer for our team while we scream at each other?

I think there's one over the bar. It's not a big place.

I'd love to schedule A Gathering but I don't want to shoehorn in on what they were working up. Unless we can somehow shame them into it, of course.

[remy]

I think there's one over the bar. It's not a big place.

I'd love to schedule A Gathering but I don't want to shoehorn in on what they were working up. Unless we can somehow shame them into it, of course.

Yeah... There's always Third Base if it does actually turn into a Gathering.

[MusicMan]

Good idea. I'm a way louder screamer than the old man.

T.M.I. 

[VirtualBob]

T.M.I. 

S.F.N.

[JimR]

Yeah... There's always Third Base if it does actually turn into a Gathering.

Third Base is a piss poor substitute for Whip In. the more the merrier, imo.

[mrpink]

Third Base is a piss poor substitute for Whip In. the more the merrier, imo.

Agreed.  I've been lurking damn near every day for the better part of 10 years now.  It'd be nice to put some faces to names.  So, who's gonna pick a date?

[JimR]

Agreed.  I've been lurking damn near every day for the better part of 10 years now.  It'd be nice to put some faces to names.  So, who's gonna pick a date?

depends on when you'll be here. fyi, though: i'll be gone 7/29-8/18.

[Taras Bulba]

depends on when you'll be here. fyi, though: i'll be gone 7/29-8/18.

Slacker.

[JimR]

Slacker.

indeed. it's awful.

[HudsonHawk]

It'd be nice to put some faces to names.

I apologize in advance for mine.

[austro]

Slacker.

Says the man who's been absent for 6 months.

[hostros7]

anyone catch Wade on the MLB network talking trade deadline?

[hostros7]

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/126153813.html#ixzz1TEjeUUKB

HAHAHAHA.

If it takes Brown, single-A Clearwater first baseman Jonathan Singleton, and even Clearwater pitcher Jared Cosart, then the Phillies need to get the deal done because Pence is the guy who gives them the best chance of winning the 2011 World Series

ROFL

All the Phillies have in Brown right now is an unpolished prospect. Yes, it's possible he could become a superstar, but that evolution is not going to occur between now and October.

Brown, in fact, showed his lack of polish Monday during the Phillies' 5-4 loss to the San Diego Padres when he attempted to make a diving catch on a low liner off Rob Johnson's bat.

Brown got to the ball, but it hit off the heel of his glove and scooted into right field for an RBI double. It was not an easy play. It was the kind of play that must be made at the big-league level, especially when the stakes are raised in the postseason.

laughing/weeping.

[MusicMan]

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/126153813.html#ixzz1TEjeUUKB

HAHAHAHA.

ROFL

laughing/weeping.

You know what?  I'm not going to say they're wrong.

I think Beltran gives them the best chance, but Pence would look damned good in LF batting 5th in Philly.

[Lurch]

HunterPence9
I'm sure yall have seen me wearing @efxusa products on the field every game. The difference I feel in my strength and energy is remarkable.

Enough said.

[OregonStrosFan]

Enough said.

I don't know, Cabrera weighed in on the comment and made some good points...

[Lurch]

DAMNIT!

[hostros7]

You know what?  I'm not going to say they're wrong.

I think Beltran gives them the best chance, but Pence would look damned good in LF batting 5th in Philly.

Pence is a good fit for them.  Mortgaging their future for a "nice to have" addition to the best record team in the MLB* doesn't make sense to me.  Plus, the comment about Brown's miscue in the outfield was just gold.

* done without a healthy Utley for much of it and Oswalt for some of it. 

[Clark in Denver]

Per Stark:

A longtime friend of Drayton McLane believes McLane's last act as Astros owner will be to convince GM Ed Wade to retain favorite Hunter Pence.

[austro]

Per Stark:

As he walks away wiping his hands and saying "My work is done here", a smoking crater in the background.

[Jacksonian]

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/126153813.html#ixzz1TEjeUUKB

HAHAHAHA.

ROFL

laughing/weeping.

Also, the writer has clearly never seen Hunter play:

The price for Pence is high, as it should be for a guy who entered Monday hitting .308 with 62 RBIs, with a rifle right-field arm that led the National League with nine outfield assists.

[austro]

Also, the writer has clearly never seen Hunter play:

I haven't bothered to run any numbers, but I wonder how much of Pence's assist total is due to the fact that the Astros pitchers make sure that the bases are well-stocked with runners, and that the outfield is supplied with many batted balls on which to make plays (or not, in the occasional instance).

[hostros7]

I haven't bothered to run any numbers, but I wonder how much of Pence's assist total is due to the fact that the Astros pitchers make sure that the bases are well-stocked with runners, and that the outfield is supplied with many batted balls on which to make plays (or not, in the occasional instance).

Pretty sure Carlos is tied for #2 in the league, if that tells you anything.

[Navin R Johnson]

Hello, do you not remember this quote from that Phillies blog? 

"From 2008-10, the only right fielder with a higher UZR (Ultimate Zone Rating, an advanced fielding stat that properly incorporates a player’s range) is Ichiro Suzuki. "

2nd in UZR!  Add that to all the assists and the numbers prove he is a young goofy Roberto Clemente!

[Mr. Happy]

I haven't bothered to run any numbers, but I wonder how much of Pence's assist total is due to the fact that the Astros pitchers make sure that the bases are well-stocked with runners, and that the outfield is supplied with many batted balls on which to make plays (or not, in the occasional instance).

As well as the fact that everybody runs on Pence, so he gets plenty of chances.

[JimR]

As well as the fact that everybody runs on Pence, so he gets plenty of chances.

exactly

[Reuben]

Pretty sure Carlos is tied for #2 in the league, if that tells you anything.

No, that's triples. (it is still April, right...?)

[hostros7]

No, that's triples. (it is still April, right...?)

http://stats.mercurynews.com/mlb/getleaders.asp?rank=328p

Rank    Player    Team    Stats
1t    Ryan Ludwick   SD   9
1t    Hunter Pence   Hou   9
3t    Andre Ethier   LAD   8
3t    Carlos Gonzalez   Col   8
3t    Tony Gwynn Jr.   LAD   8
3t    Carlos Lee           Hou   8

[roadrunner]

Here's a question for SnS:

Is it a disappointment if the only deadline deal is the Keppinger one? 

- I'd love to move Pence, but with club control over the next few years it doesn't seem like a must-trade at this second. 
- Wandy would be great to deal but it sounds like the market isn't willing to offer much more than peanuts
- Is the return for Barmes really worth more than keeping him around?
- I personally don't want to deal Bourn, at least not right now.

[Mr. Happy]

Here's a question for SnS:

Is it a disappointment if the only deadline deal is the Keppinger one? 

- I'd love to move Pence, but with club control over the next few years it doesn't seem like a must-trade at this second. 
- Wandy would be great to deal but it sounds like the market isn't willing to offer much more than peanuts
- Is the return for Barmes really worth more than keeping him around?
- I personally don't want to deal Bourn, at least not right now.

The answer to your first question is yes, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit.

I couldn't move Pence fast enough.

Hold on to Wandy if no one wants to pay a fair price.

I definitely don't want to deal Bourn at this time.

[moriartp]

I'm hoping they keep Barmes for another year or two.

[Navin R Johnson]

http://stats.mercurynews.com/mlb/getleaders.asp?rank=328p

Carlos got another assist tonight, he is now tied with PENCE! for 1st in the NL.

Tonight's assist by Carlos was a damn good play though.

[austro]

My wife pointed out that not trading Pence wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if you lack confidence in Wade's ability to identify talent. Keep him around and let Crane's people trade him next winter or next summer for people that they want.

[austro]

Tonight's assist by Carlos was a damn good play though.

Damn good. Nice little pirouette after making the catch.

[BizidyDizidy]

Is having the top two assist leaders just indicative of the carousel going around the bases?

[chuck]

Is having the top two assist leaders just indicative of the carousel going around the bases?

This was discussed elsewhere today. The consensus is: Yes.

[OregonStrosFan]

I'm hoping they keep Barmes for another year or two.

Or at a minimum at least that they don't trade him for fodder... He could very well be a Type-B FA by seasons end.

[OregonStrosFan]

Tonight's assist by Carlos was a damn good play though.

That, and Albert is an arrogant ass when it comes to running the bases...

[JaneDoe]

That, and Albert is an arrogant ass when it comes to running the bases...

FIFY

[pots]

My wife pointed out that not trading Pence wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if you lack confidence in Wade's ability to identify talent. Keep him around and let Crane's people trade him next winter or next summer for people that they want.

Good lord, really?  Signing free agents is Wade's achilles heel.  Trades he is good at.  

Edit:  (all contains my bias):

Loss (Just having Villarreal on the team was bad):
11/16/07  Acquired RHP Oscar Villarreal from the Braves in exchange for OF Josh Anderson  

Win:
11/7/07  Acquired OF Michael Bourn, nonroster 3B Michael Costanzo and RHP Geoff Geary from the Phillies in exchange for RHP Brad Lidge and SS Eric Bruntlett.  
9/11/07  Acquired RHP Dennis Sarfate from the Milwaukee Brewers in exchange for cash considerations
12/12/07  Acquired SS Miguel Tejada from the Baltimore Orioles in exchange for OF Luke Scott, RHP Matt Albers, LHP Troy Patton, RHP Dennis Sarfate and 3B Mike Costanzo

Summed:
Bourn, Tejada, and Geary
for
Lidge, Bruntlet, Scott, Albers, Patton, cash


Even: (could see this as a win)
12/14/07  Acquired RHP Jose Valverde from the Arizona Diamondbacks in exchange for INF Chris Burke and RHP Juan Gutierrez and RHP Chad Qualls.  

Win:
7/22/08  Acquired LHP Randy Wolf from the San Diego Padres in exchange for RHP Chad Reineke.  

Win:
7/30/08  Acquired RHP LaTroy Hawkins from the New York Yankees for INF Matt Cusick.  

Fleecing:
3/31/09  Acquired INF Jeff Keppinger from the Reds for Drew Sutton

Even (Pudge had little value to the Stros):
8/18/09 Houston Astros traded C Ivan Rodriguez for Matt Nevarez

Win:
12/09/09 Florida Marlins traded RHP Matt Lindstrom to Houston Astros for SS Luis Bryan and RHP Robert Bono.

Fleecing:
07/01/10 Houston Astros traded C Kevin Cash to Boston Red Sox for SS Angel Sanchez.

Jury is still out but I like it.  If Villar develops into a MLB shortstop, I think this could be a win:
07/29/10 Houston Astros traded RHP Roy Oswalt (and cas) for Happ, Anthony Gose, amd Jonathan Villar

Win:
07/31/10 Houston Astros traded cash and 1B Lance Berkman to New York Yankees for Jimmy Paredes and RHP Mark Melancon.

Fleecing:
08/19/10  Houston Astros traded 3B Pedro Feliz to St. Louis Cardinals for David Carpenter

Win:
11/18/10 Colorado Rockies traded 2B Clint Barmes to Houston Astros for RHP Felipe Paulino.

Bad loss:
12/23/10 Houston Astros traded RHP Matt Lindstrom for Wes Musick and Jonnathan Aristil

Win:
01/10/11 Philadelphia Phillies traded LHP Sergio Escalona to Houston Astros for 2B Albert Cartwright.

Jury is still out:
07/19/11 Houston Astros traded 2B Jeff Keppinger for RHP Henry Sosa and RHP Jason Stoffel


So:
2 fleecings
7 wins
2 Even
2 Jury is still out
1 Loss
1 Bad loss

[WakePhil]

Money eaten plays a role in those Berkman/Oswalt deals, no?

[MusicMan]

Even: (could see this as a win)
12/14/07  Acquired RHP Jose Valverde from the Arizona Diamondbacks in exchange for INF Chris Burke and RHP Juan Gutierrez and RHP Chad Qualls. 

How the hell is this anything but a win?

[strosrays]

How the hell is this anything but a win?

Bias.  Try and keep up.

[Reuben]

Pots, I mostly agree with your scoring, although nearly all those trades were Wade acquiring veterans and giving up middling prospects/org players. Giving up valuable vets (like Pence, Bourn, or Wandy) for future star prospects may not be a particular strength of his, we don't know.

[Jacksonian]

Jury is still out but I like it.  If Villar develops into a MLB shortstop, I think this could be a win:
07/29/10 Houston Astros traded RHP Roy Oswalt (and cas) for Happ, Anthony Gose, amd Jonathan Villar

You forgot Gose for Wallace.

I'm with MM.  The Valerde trade is a win.

[pots]

You forgot Gose for Wallace.

I'm with MM.  The Valerde trade is a win.

I was leaning that way as well, but felt I had to temper the wins somewhere

[BUWebguy]

Following Reuben's comment, let's look at Wade's history of dealing stars for prospects (with my bias):

Bust:
7/26/00 Traded Curt Schilling to Dbacks for Omar Daal, Nelson Figueroa, Travis Lee and Vincente Padilla

Break even at best:
7/29/02 Traded Scott Rolen, Doug Nickle and cash to Cardinals for Placido Polanco, Mike Timlin and Bud Smith

Break even:
11/7/07  Acquired OF Michael Bourn, nonroster 3B Michael Costanzo and RHP Geoff Geary from the Phillies in exchange for RHP Brad Lidge and SS Eric Bruntlett. 

Too soon to tell:
07/29/10 Houston Astros traded RHP Roy Oswalt (and cas) for Happ, Anthony Gose, amd Jonathan Villar

Too soon to tell:
07/31/10 Houston Astros traded cash and 1B Lance Berkman to New York Yankees for Jimmy Paredes and RHP Mark Melancon.

Not exactly confidence-inspiring.

[pots]

Pots, I mostly agree with your scoring, although nearly all those trades were Wade acquiring veterans and giving up middling prospects/org players. Giving up valuable vets (like Pence, Bourn, or Wandy) for future star prospects may not be a particular strength of his, we don't know.

Not totally.

Bourn, Feliz for Carpenter, Berkman trade were wins for prospects.  And I'm leaning the Oswalt trade even at worse.  Early returns at the Keppinger trade are looking quite promising.

Plus, with all the released from other team pickups that Wade and co have made over the last 3 years,  I think that they are good at evaluating talent.  


All I'm saying is, I'd rather have the current team make the trades versus the Crane unknown.

[pots]

Following Reuben's comment, let's look at Wade's history of dealing stars for prospects (with my bias):

Bust:
7/26/00 Traded Curt Schilling to Dbacks for Omar Daal, Nelson Figueroa, Travis Lee and Vincente Padilla

Break even at best:
7/29/02 Traded Scott Rolen, Doug Nickle and cash to Cardinals for Placido Polanco, Mike Timlin and Bud Smith

Break even:
11/7/07  Acquired OF Michael Bourn, nonroster 3B Michael Costanzo and RHP Geoff Geary from the Phillies in exchange for RHP Brad Lidge and SS Eric Bruntlett. 

Too soon to tell:
07/29/10 Houston Astros traded RHP Roy Oswalt (and cas) for Happ, Anthony Gose, amd Jonathan Villar

Too soon to tell:
07/31/10 Houston Astros traded cash and 1B Lance Berkman to New York Yankees for Jimmy Paredes and RHP Mark Melancon.

Not exactly confidence-inspiring.

I think there is more than just Wade involved in making a trade for prospects.  So I disregard the Philly trades.  Not sure how you can't say Bourn > Lidge at this point. 

[Jacksonian]

Looks like Beltran to the Giants.  With him off the market and Rasmus going to the Jays, I wonder how much the interest in Pence will increase?

[hostros7]

Looks like Beltran to the Giants.  With him off the market and Rasmus going to the Jays, I wonder how much the interest in Pence will increase?

Rumors are that the Giants are giving up Gary Brown, maybe their top prospect now with Belt in the bigs, for a two month rental of Beltran.  I hope this bodes well for Pence's market value and helps motivate the Phillies and Braves.

[jaklewein]

Looks like Beltran to the Giants.  With him off the market and Rasmus going to the Jays, I wonder how much the interest in Pence will increase?

Braves lost McCann for at least 15 days (oblique).  Braves weren't getting enough offense when he was in the lineup.  They have to make a deal.  At this point, Upton is the only other option reportably on the market that compares.  Am I missing anyone? 

[subnuclear]

Signing free agents is Wade's achilles heel.

This may be true (and it does seem that way), but you need to have something to compare it to, like another team's free agent signings with a similar budget. Trades are easier to evaluate because there is another team involved.

[Jacksonian]

Rumors are that the Giants are giving up Gary Brown, maybe their top prospect now with Belt in the bigs, for a two month rental of Beltran.  I hope this bodes well for Pence's market value and helps motivate the Phillies and Braves.

Zack Wheeler is the big prospect involved.  Top of the rotation type projection as I understand it.

[Jacksonian]

Rumors are that the Giants are giving up Gary Brown, maybe their top prospect now with Belt in the bigs, for a two month rental of Beltran.  I hope this bodes well for Pence's market value and helps motivate the Phillies and Braves.

Even more fun is that the Giants and Phillies are in the middle of a 3 game set.  If Beltran can be there for the game tomorrow (maybe tonight?) the Phillies can get a brief look at how much better the Giants are with him.  They play again after the deadline.  Might help push the Phillies to make a deal for hitting?

[jaklewein]

Even more fun is that the Giants and Phillies are in the middle of a 3 game set.  If Beltran can be there for the game tomorrow (maybe tonight?) the Phillies can get a brief look at how much better the Giants are with him.  They play again after the deadline.  Might help push the Phillies to make a deal for hitting?

We can only hope.  BTW, the Braves also have a blackhole at SS.  Gonzalez is or used to be (somebody more knowlegable than thou can state their case) one of the top defensive SS's in the game.  I don't know how Barmes stacks up defensively, but I do think he could help then on the offensive side of the ball.  Whether the trade off is a plus I don't know, but I was thinking a Pence/Barmes combo might be a good match.  With Chipper in the lineup being the exception rather than the rule they need as many offensive pieces as they can get, and guys that can play multiple positions would IMO be a nice plus.  This is why I was surprised when ATL didn't go a little harder after Kepp.  They have Prado who can do the same very effectively, but the Braves OF is a train wreck and my guess is that they'd rather have him out there if at all possible.

[Bench]

I don't know how Barmes stacks up defensively, but I do think he could help then on the offensive side of the ball. 

Barmes is better in the field than at the plate.

[Bench]

Rosenthal

Source: #Braves turning attention to #Astros' Pence. Also have shown interest in #Padres' Ludwick. #tradedeadline #MLB

[hostros7]

Rosenthal

Source: #Braves turning attention to #Astros' Pence. Also have shown interest in #Padres' Ludwick. #tradedeadline #MLB

Well, the argument against the Braves forking over a top pitching prospect or two has certainly weakened in the last couple hours. 

[Jacksonian]

Well, the argument against the Braves forking over a top pitching prospect or two has certainly weakened in the last couple hours. 

Good day for Wade with both Beltran and Rasmus going off the table.

[pots]

From MLBTR:

"•Two front office men, neither from the Astros or Phillies, told ESPN's Jayson Stark they believed the Phillies had a deal for Pence in the last 24 hours only to have the Astros back off.  The Phillies offered Jarred Cosart, Jonathan Singelton, and a second-tier pitching prospect for Pence, believes Stark.  An Astros official told Stark they haven't said no to any specific proposal, however."



Things that make you go hmmmm....  I think Pence won't be an Astro next week

[Navin R Johnson]

Buster Olney
Source: Phillies have done background work on Carlos Quentin, who could be middle-of-the-order bat they covet.

[Jacksonian]

Buster Olney
Source: Phillies have done background work on Carlos Quentin, who could be middle-of-the-order bat they covet.

This is the best option for the Phillies and Braves not named Pence.  The other hitters mentioned have power but low BA.  However, Quentin has never had 500 AB in a single season.

[Jacksonian]

From MLBTR:

"•Two front office men, neither from the Astros or Phillies, told ESPN's Jayson Stark they believed the Phillies had a deal for Pence in the last 24 hours only to have the Astros back off.  The Phillies offered Jarred Cosart, Jonathan Singelton, and a second-tier pitching prospect for Pence, believes Stark.  An Astros official told Stark they haven't said no to any specific proposal, however."



Things that make you go hmmmm....  I think Pence won't be an Astro next week

It's not the deadline.  Why do a deal now if you think your player's value will go up with the Beltran pursuit getting so hot at that time?

[pots]

It's not the deadline.  Why do a deal now if you think your player's value will go up with the Beltran pursuit getting so hot at that time?

Both the Braves and Phillies coveting Pence.  Neither will want the other to land him.  Beltran and Rasmus off the table.  This could get good.

[MusicMan]

Both the Braves and Phillies coveting Pence.  Neither will want the other to land him.  Beltran and Rasmus off the table.  This could get good.

On one hand, Braves are loaded with pitching prospects.
On the other hand, has any Brave pitching prospect (other than Wainwright) ever blossomed elsewhere?

[Jacksonian]

On one hand, Braves are loaded with pitching prospects.
On the other hand, has any Brave pitching prospect (other than Wainwright) ever blossomed elsewhere?

Feliz and Harrison with the Rangers in the Teixeira deal.

[Uncle Charlie]

It's not the deadline.  Why do a deal now if you think your player's value will go up with the Beltran pursuit getting so hot at that time?

Only if you think you are getting a quick knee-jerk panic offer from a team who just lost Beltran and will reduce their offer once they sleep on it.  Not saying that's the case, but if Wade determined it was he may take a deal now.

[Jacksonian]

Only if you think you are getting a quick knee-jerk panic offer from a team who just lost Beltran and will reduce their offer once they sleep on it.  Not saying that's the case, but if Wade determined it was he may take a deal now.

He does have to balance his expectation of increased value after the Beltran deal with not waiting too long and having potential suitors go get someone else.  So, I agree, it may be today.  But I also think any offer today will be better than any one yesterday.

[coop]

Unlikely Teheran would be any part of those discussions I suppose.

[Lurch]

Pence not in tonight's lineup.

[Matt]

Pence not in tonight's lineup.

Just saw that...

[OregonStrosFan]

Pence not in tonight's lineup.

You've seen his play the last week or so, no? Giving scouts more chances to see him before the deadline can only hurt his value...

[pots]

Pence not in tonight's lineup.

And there goes getting anything else done today....

[Lurch]

You've seen his play the last week or so, no? Giving scouts more chances to see him before the deadline can only hurt his value...

Nice.  And quite possibly true.

[Jacksonian]

Is it just me or have Footer and Tag been very quiet today?

[Matt]

Is it just me or have Footer and Tag been very quiet today?

They haven't been tweeting much which is to be expected during travel or something.

[Navin R Johnson]

Brian McTaggart
Pence not traded. Says was told last night he would get day off. Has been struggling a bit.

[jbm]

Brian McTaggart
Pence not traded. Says was told last night he would get day off. Has been struggling a bit.

Fuck, he has been struggling for many games prior to tonight.  Hopefully, that is just Millsease.

[Ron Brand]

Calling that a struggle is like saying Chernobyl was a campfire that got a little out of hand.

[Reuben]

This story from Philly says the Phillies may be willing to include Brown in a Pence deal, and notes that Charlie Manuel is strongly in favor of picking up a vet bat.

[Navin R Johnson]

Mills would love that, Brown is a prefect candidate to platoon with Jason Michaels.

[Ron Brand]

This story from Philly says the Phillies may be willing to include Brown in a Pence deal, and notes that Charlie Manuel is strongly in favor of picking up a vet bat.

Oh please. Oh please.

[Matt]

Mills would love that, Brown is a prefect candidate to platoon with Jason Michaels.

Come on now, that's just until he finds him some favorable matchups.

[Reuben]

Oh please. Oh please.

Not that I really know shit about any of these prospects beyond half-remembered, regurgitated "expert" opinions, but it seems like Brown plus Cosart and/or Singleton would be a nice haul, right? If the Phils were offering the latter two plus an unnamed player and the Astros turned them down, its not crazy that they could insist on Brown on top of that, is it?

[Ron Brand]

Supposedly the Phillies are softening and are open to including Brown. To me, this is a huge deal and reflects the heat they're feeling from Atlanta on this. Brown, Cosart/Singleton or maybe both, plus another guy could be in a mix of players from Houston that could net the Phillies the reliever they also need. Could be a three-way thing, could involve someone like Melancon. I'd be very, very happy to end up swapping out Pence for Domonic Brown.

[jester9450]

Brown, Cosart and ,Singleton for Pence that would be the only way that would work

[Reuben]

...and, right on cue, the Phillies try to downplay their Pence-lust with a little leak to the ever-willing Jon Heyman:

Philly thinks it can get upton much cheaper than pence. But does he really fit?

[Ron Brand]

Well, he does play a better CF but that .235, 165 strikeout bat doesn't help out so much.

[DVauthrin]

Brown, Cosart and ,Singleton for Pence that would be the only way that would work

I'd do it for Brown and Cosart even if the Phillies refused to give up Singleton.

[Reuben]

Well, he does play a better CF but that .235, 165 strikeout bat doesn't help out so much.

Yeah, right now he's hitting .227/.307/.395. And the Phillies already have a pretty good CF in Victorino. I'm not buyin' it.

[Matt]

Yeah, right now he's hitting .227/.307/.395. And the Phillies already have a pretty good CF in Victorino. I'm not buyin' it.

Well of course they could get him cheaper than Pence with those stats.

[austro]

Well of course they could get him cheaper than Pence with those stats.

Plus, it's hard to put a price on his can-do, upbeat attitude.

[Reuben]

What the fuck?!?! God, I hate Jon Heyman:

appears more and more pence is staying. #astros stepping up efforts to deal wandy, myers, bourn.

[Matt]

Plus, it's hard to put a price on his can-do, upbeat attitude.

You also get those brilliant tweets when you trade for Pence.

[austro]

You also get those brilliant tweets when you trade for Pence.

I was alluding to the ray of sunshine that is Upton.

[MusicMan]

...and, right on cue, the Phillies try to downplay their Pence-lust with a little leak to the ever-willing Jon Heyman:

Thank you for recognizing Heyman for the mouthpiece he is.

[Reuben]

Thank you for recognizing Heyman for the mouthpiece he is.

...and then the Phils call in Ken Rosenthal to drop the news that the Phillies are checking out Carlos Quentin. Now we wait for Wade to tell some reporter how the Braves have made a big offer for Pence...

[mrpink]

depends on when you'll be here. fyi, though: i'll be gone 7/29-8/18.

It looks like I'll be in Austin the 22nd and 23rd. Do y'all want to shoot for one of those days? The following week may work as well.

[JimR]

It looks like I'll be in Austin the 22nd and 23rd. Do y'all want to shoot for one of those days? The following week may work as well.

probably will work. remind me/us after i get back.

[Ron Brand]

The 23rd might work, the following week should be better for me.

[hostros7]

Doubt the Astros turned down Brown, Cosart, Singleton but who knows?  Maybe Phils are leaking that to deter other bidders?

Yesterday we learned that the Phillies offered Jarred Cosart, Jonathan Singleton, and a second-tier pitching prospect for Hunter Pence, but the Astros did not pull the trigger.  Domonic Brown may have been available as well, but appears Pence will remain with Houston until the offseason at least.  The latest:

    * The Braves are the last team in on Pence, tweets SI's Jon Heyman.  The Phillies "seem to have all but given up" on Pence after their big offer was rejected.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/07/braves-are-last-team-in-on-hunter-pence.html

[JimR]

Doubt the Astros turned down Brown, Cosart, Singleton but who knows?  Maybe Phils are leaking that to deter other bidders?
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/07/braves-are-last-team-in-on-hunter-pence.html

i wish someone would force Wade et al to say whether they rejected that deal. i will learn this for sure eventually.

[jbm]

Astros County had a bit yesterday, or the day before about McLane, as "his final act as an owner" trying to convince Wade not to trade his favorite player.  Maybe there is some shit like that which is complicating the matter.

[Ron Brand]

I was watching the flood of tweets a couple of times yesterday and the rumors mutated so much it's impossible to glean from that just what is going on. I put mlbtraderumors squarely in the middle of that muck, they're as unreliable as anything you'd find on Bleacher Report. The concrete stuff appears to have been Singleton, Cosart and a B-level prospect, which was rejected as expected. That Brown was ever a component along with Singleton and Cosart seemed to be much less clear and was more thrown around by people who were hoping and guessing, along with the addition of Worley to the mix. I think Brown is the piece Wade wants and if he was there with A-grade prospects he'd go for it but we'll all know more real soon.

[Ron Brand]

Astros County had a bit yesterday, or the day before about McLane, as "his final act as an owner" trying to convince Wade not to trade his favorite player.  Maybe there is some shit like that which is complicating the matter.

That just seems insipid to me me. McLane is the owner. If he says no to a trade, the answer is no.

[hostros7]

Astros County had a bit yesterday, or the day before about McLane, as "his final act as an owner" trying to convince Wade not to trade his favorite player.  Maybe there is some shit like that which is complicating the matter.

Fuck that.  He's not a king or a lame duck president.  His final act as owner should be to get the fuck out of the way.

To turn down a MLB ready OF, a potential top of the rotation guy, and a power 1b bat that is a little further away for Numbnuts would be foolish, imo, unless Wade knows something about these three guys we don't (highly possible, of course).

Maybe Wade likes Braves prospects more and is trying to up the ante with them? I hate twitter for allowing me to follow this shit all day.  

[MusicMan]

Astros County had a bit yesterday, or the day before about McLane, as "his final act as an owner" trying to convince Wade not to trade his favorite player.  Maybe there is some shit like that which is complicating the matter.

Heyman said this, which I dismissed, but Stark said the exact same thing, so I'm inclined to believe there's something to it.

[moriartp]

Are the reports saying they rejected a deal for Cosart, Singleton, and Brown? Or one that included Singleton and Cosart and a different offer based around Brown? I can't imagine the Phillies offering those three together, much less the Astros declining.

[jbm]

That just seems insipid to me me. McLane is the owner. If he says no to a trade, the answer is no.

Well, we really don't know the internal dynamics Wade faces.  It might be real complicated.  Crane might have told him to deal and Drayton tells him something else.  He thinks "who do I please, this guy who just barged into my office and might still be my boss if the deal is not approved, or my future boss I need to impress."  

It could be a fucked up situation.  Hopefully it is not, and this was just disinformation.

[Ron Brand]

B.J. UPTON IS NOT IN THE LINEUP TODAY! WE'RE GOING TO KEEP PENCE!!!

[Ron Brand]

Are the reports saying they rejected a deal for Cosart, Singleton, and Brown? Or one that included Singleton and Cosart and a different offer based around Brown? I can't imagine the Phillies offering those three together, much less the Astros declining.

I never saw anything credible that there was an offer including Singleton, Cosart and Brown, only conjecture. I did see reliable reports that there were offers of Singleton, Cosart and a B-level pitching prospect.

[MusicMan]

Are the reports saying they rejected a deal for Cosart, Singleton, and Brown? Or one that included Singleton and Cosart and a different offer based around Brown? I can't imagine the Phillies offering those three together, much less the Astros declining.

The latter.

[Navin R Johnson]

I wonder if the hold up is Astros pitching in money to cover salary?  The Phils are pretty maxed out, and they are gonna owe Pence at least 10 mil next year.

[moriartp]

Cool. Assuming the Singleton/Cosart offer was indeed made, I can understand them holding out for Brown if they think they can get him. If they're holding out for much more than that, I think their price is way too high.

[Ron Brand]

Cool. Assuming the Singleton/Cosart offer was indeed made, I can understand them holding out for Brown if they think they can get him. If they're holding out for much more than that, I think their price is way too high.

I agree. Conversely, Brown and some shmoe doesn't seem to be enough either, as much as I want to get rid of him. Seeing him next year in an Astros uni will be torture.

[DVauthrin]

I agree. Conversely, Brown and some shmoe doesn't seem to be enough either, as much as I want to get rid of him. Seeing him next year in an Astros uni will be torture.

Is Brown and Cosart(or Singleton as a fallback option) enough in your mind?  

[Ron Brand]

Is Brown and Cosart(or Singleton as a fallback option) enough in your mind?  

Probably if push came to shove and that was all I'd ever get, yeah. I'd like to get one or two B guys if possible, but I'm so biased from watching his shenanigans in right and at the plate that I'm just ready for him to go...

[Matt]

Is Brown and Cosart(or Singleton as a fallback option) enough in your mind?  

If they then moved to keep Bourn around long term then that would be fine with me.

[jaklewein]

I'm really worried he not going to get dealt (no info, just gut).  It tooks years to finally convince Drayton to rebuild.  It's going to piss me off if Drayton holds the team back from going on in on this venture.

[hostros7]

Probably if push came to shove and that was all I'd ever get, yeah. I'd like to get one or two B guys if possible, but I'm so biased from watching his shenanigans in right and at the plate that I'm just ready for him to go...

Brown, Cosart and a mid-level prospect (like a Villar) would be a nice haul.  Reinjecting some pitching depth into this system other than at the lowest levels would be nice.

Agree w/ Jacksonian jaklewein, and the status quo is quite worrisome.

[Ron Brand]

Brown, Cosart and a mid-level prospect (like a Villar) would be a nice haul.  

Getting Brown to me would be huge. His upside is higher than anyone we've seen around here in a long time.

[pots]

shenanigans in right

From what I've read about Brown's defense, it sounds exactly like what we have now.  Getting started in the wrong direct, making bad decision, turning outs into triples...

[subnuclear]

I suspect they are too smart to give the Astros anything really good.

[Ron Brand]

From what I've read about Brown's defense, it sounds exactly like what we have now.  Getting started in the wrong direct, making bad decision, turning outs into triples...

Yeah, but he's younger and not the knothead we have now, so he could possibly be taught, which is most definitely not the case with what we have leading the NL in assists right now.

[jbm]

Isn't Singleton basically a first base propspect?  I see that he has played some outfield this year, but does this org need more prospects whose final destination may be first?  There is Wallace, Hinze, potentially Martinez or Nash.  Clemens if he is still a prospect.  Maybe they should hold out for someone they believe can field a non-first base position.

I assume Brown fits that bill.  I watched him bat once recently after I heard the rumors.  It was just one AB, but he showed more discipline than all but a few ABs I've seen from Pence.  

[Ron Brand]

Isn't Singleton basically a first base propspect?  I see that he has played some outfield this year, but does this org need more prospects whose final destination may be first?  There is Wallace, Hinze, potentially Martinez or Nash.  Clemens if he is still a prospect.  Maybe they should hold out for someone they believe can field a non-first base position.

I assume Brown fits that bill.  I watched him bat once recently after I heard the rumors.  It was just one AB, but he showed more discipline than all but a few ABs I've seen from Pence.  

IIRC Singleton is a few years away and grades out a lot better than any 1B guy we have in the system.

[hostros7]

IIRC Singleton is a few years away and grades out a lot better than any 1B guy we have in the system.

To be fair, Singleton is also not currently in the Astros' system, if he were he might not "grade out" so well for some.

[pots]

Phillies are looking for relievers too.  Would perhaps adding Melancon make Brown, Singleton and Cosart a possibility?  I like Melancon, but who really cares what we have in the bullpen at this point. 

[jbm]

Phillies are looking for relievers too.  Would perhaps adding Melancon make Brown, Singleton and Cosart a possibility?  I like Melancon, but who really cares what we have in the bullpen at this point. 

The starting pitchers

[pots]

The starting pitchers

Eh, they are trying to trade all of those away too, or at least any that have been in the league long enough to gripe

[moriartp]

Personally, in my completely admitted position of ignorance, I'd jump all over Brown and Cosart for Pence. All over it.

[hostros7]

Rosenthal now tweeting that 8 teams are looking into pence.  Definitely different story from "down to the braves" earlier today. 

[Ron Brand]

These guys backtrack more than Pinwheel.

[Matt]

Rosenthal now tweeting that 8 teams are looking into pence.  Definitely different story from "down to the braves" earlier today. 

They're all a bunch of high school girls.

[Uncle Charlie]

I blame it on social media.  It's become a race to "first" instead of a race of responsible reporting.

[Ebby Calvin]

I blame it on social media.  It's become a race to "first" instead of a race of responsible reporting.

Your point is well made, but I'd argue the media was like that far before anyone put the word "social" in front.

[BizidyDizidy]

Would be much better if we just had to wait to read in the paper 8/1.

[jaklewein]

Would be much better if we just had to wait to read in the paper 8/1.

Heck with that.  I absolutely love the last 48 hours before the deadline. 

[Ron Brand]

Heck with that.  I absolutely love the last 48 hours before the deadline. 

Yeah, how else would I find out so quickly that Bill Hall was DFA'd?

[Navin R Johnson]

Here is a source a little closer to the team....

Pence could be on the move

The Astros appear to be moving closer to trading All-Star right-fielder Hunter Pence, MLB.com has learned.

http://brianmctaggart.mlblogs.com/2011/07/28/pence-could-be-on-the-move/

[MusicMan]

Also in the Tag article: Astros talking to Reds, Phils, Braves, plus 3 AL teams.

[Matt]

Good. Trade him and offer Bourn a contract.

[Jacksonian]

Here is a source a little closer to the team....

Pence could be on the move

The Astros appear to be moving closer to trading All-Star right-fielder Hunter Pence, MLB.com has learned.

http://brianmctaggart.mlblogs.com/2011/07/28/pence-could-be-on-the-move/

And batting 4th tonight.  Apparently the 4 runs scored last night was enough for Mills to use the same 3 at the top of the lineup again.

http://footer.mlblogs.com/2011/07/28/astros-lineup-728-at-cardinals-first-pitch-715-p-m-ct/

[Jacksonian]

Also in the Tag article: Astros talking to Reds, Phils, Braves, plus 3 AL teams.

What 3 AL teams need a RH outfielder who has some power?

[MusicMan]

What 3 AL teams need a RH outfielder who has some power?

Red Sox were looking at Quentin, and have been very disappointed in Drew.
Rangers were in on Beltran but he wanted the NL.
Blue Jays are looking at just about everyone.
Angels have a ton of dead money in the OF, but could use the help.

[Jacksonian]

FWIW Stark says interest in Pence is "exploding."

Also Ludwick is not in the Pads lineup tonight and SD media are speculating a trade for him is coming.

[chuck]

If they manage to trade Pence and extend Bourn I will be forced to re-evaluate the FO.

[Jacksonian]

If they manage to trade Pence and extend Bourn I will be forced to re-evaluate the FO.

Until you learn that Crane told them to do it....

[MusicMan]

If they manage to trade Pence and extend Bourn I will be forced to re-evaluate the FO.

Let's be honest.  Ed Wade could get Harper and Strasburg for Pence and you'd be lukewarm on it, at best.

[hostros7]

Let's be honest.  Ed Wade could get Harper and Strasburg for Pence and you'd be lukewarm on it, at best.

Fuck ya, Strsburg is damaged goods.  Harper, Rendon, and Alex Meyer.  Pence requires a 3 for 1 foo

[Jacksonian]

Let's be honest.  Ed Wade could get Harper and Strasburg for Pence and you'd be lukewarm on it, at best.

Right.  18 year old head case like this org needs more of that and a guy with a big fastball but injury history (read Paulino again).  You'd be lukewarm too.

[JimR]

If they manage to trade Pence and extend Bourn I will be forced to re-evaluate the FO.

damn, i might cancel my trip to stay home and wait for the reevaluation.

[Jose Cruz III]

Here is a source a little closer to the team....

Pence could be on the move

The Astros appear to be moving closer to trading All-Star right-fielder Hunter Pence, MLB.com has learned.

http://brianmctaggart.mlblogs.com/2011/07/28/pence-could-be-on-the-move/

McTaggart wrote it and Pam Gardner changed her name to Becky and was the first to comment.

[Jose Cruz III]

If they manage to trade Pence and extend Bourn I will be forced to re-evaluate the FO.

There's an old saying "get too big for your britches and the BBGs will squash you".

[Jose Cruz III]

If Spaz is traded, does Altuve get his banner spot? You could probably get feet and all of him on there.

[Matt]

If Spaz is traded, does Altuve get his banner spot? You could probably get feet and all of him on there.

It boggled my mind why they latched onto Pence so quickly and ignored Bourn.

[remy]

http://brianmctaggart.mlblogs.com/2011/07/28/pence-could-be-on-the-move/

Becky apparently is not pleased with this news.

[Jose Cruz III]

Becky apparently is not pleased with this news.

She apparently thinks Pence would run through a glass door for her. But we all know better.

[Matt]

Becky apparently is not pleased with this news.

Nooooooooo! http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/219/noooooooo.jpg/sr=1

[astrosfan76]

What 3 AL teams need a RH outfielder who has some power?

Piecing it together from tweets, the Indians, Rangers, and Red Sox are the AL teams.

jonmorosi Jon Morosi
by Ken_Rosenthal
Sources say #Phillies and #Braves are on Pence, #Indians still involved. Chances of deal better than 50/50. #Astros

Atlanta and Texas have the most to offer, but Phils seem most aggressive. RT @manturk11: @richardjustice .....prediction on who gets pence?

The teams Stark mentions are all of the usual looking-for-offense suspects we’ve been hearing about these past couple of weeks: the Phillies, Braves, Reds and Red Sox.  Berman reports that there are two other AL teams interested, but doesn’t name them

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/28/interest-in-hunter-pence-exploding/

[Jacksonian]

Nooooooooo! http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/219/noooooooo.jpg/sr=1

You may want to put a warning label on this for MusicMan.

[homer]

Piecing it together from tweets, the Indians, Rangers, and Red Sox are the AL teams.

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/28/interest-in-hunter-pence-exploding/

A trade of Pence to the Rangers would probably make Becky's head explode.

[chuck]

A trade of Pence to the Rangers would probably make Becky's head explode.

I doubt there'd be a whole hell of a lot to clean up.

[Jose Cruz III]

A trade of Pence to the Rangers would probably make Becky's head explode.

If they get the haul some are saying they can get from the Phillies for him my head will explode. Possibly both.

[Jacksonian]

If they get the haul some are saying they can get from the Phillies for him my head will explode. Possibly both.

WTMI!

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Your point is well made, but I'd argue the media was like that far before anyone put the word "social" in front.

Sure, but it's the immediacy of the modern day delivery systems compounded with the traditional recklessness that creates an even greater media frenzy to be the first one to break the news.

[Rebel Jew]

Piecing it together from tweets, the Indians, Rangers, and Red Sox are the AL teams.

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/28/interest-in-hunter-pence-exploding/

I think it's worth noting that Pence seems born to be an AL player, and will make one of those dipshit fanbases very happy at least in the short term. The first time they see him leg out a slow bouncer to short their fans will think they got a steal. If he hits a home run in the same game he'll get a standing ovation.

[SaltyParker]

It's a situation that has Arlington written all over it. He would fit in the Rangers lineup quite nicely holding down the seven spot.

[MusicMan]

You may want to put a warning label on this for MusicMan.

In this case, a picture just doesn't have the same effect.

[moriartp]

In this case, a picture just doesn't have the same effect.

Strangely enough, the scene in question tends to elicit the very reaction it depicts.

[astrosfan76]

It's a situation that has Arlington written all over it. He would fit in the Rangers lineup quite nicely holding down the seven spot.

I may be in the minority, but I would loathe seeing him go to the Rangers.  After the Cubs and Cards, I don't think there's a team I would less like seeing him join.

[Ron Brand]

Rosenthal says, "Talks are coming to a head."

The teams will need to reach agreement by Friday, or the Astros will move on to other suitors — including the Phillies’ NL East rival, the Braves.

The package going from Philadelphia to Houston for Pence would include Class A right-hander Jarred Cosart and Class A first baseman Jonathan Singleton, sources said.

The teams, however, continue to haggle about a third and possibly fourth player in the deal. Phillies outfielder Domonic Brown is not currently in the trade, according to one source; the Astros prefer younger prospects.

[Waldo]

"Talks are coming to a head."

JC III's head(s), apparently.

[SaltyParker]

I may be in the minority, but I would loathe seeing him go to the Rangers.  After the Cubs and Cards, I don't think there's a team I would less like seeing him join.

Who cares where he goes as long as a nice haul of talent comes this way.

[moriartp]

Who cares where he goes as long as a nice haul of talent comes this way.

Bingo.

[astrosfan76]

Who cares where he goes as long as a nice haul of talent comes this way.

I'm tired of hearing about the Rangers (Nolan, their impending dynasty, blah blah blah) and I don't even live in Texas.  Plus, I don't have the level of disdain toward Pence as some have.  Even with his flaws, I still like the guy.  So, I don't want to see him on a team that I dislike.  Berkman on the Yankees was tolerable, Berkman on the Cardinals, not tolerable.  Same principle.

[Ron Brand]

Now Olney is saying that the bidding war is exploding and there's a report that the Braves are now open to discussing their top four pitching prospects. It's like Christmas, wondering what you're going to find under the tree.

[hostros7]

Now Olney is saying that the bidding war is exploding and there's a report that the Braves are now open to discussing their top four pitching prospects. It's like Christmas, wondering what you're going to find under the tree.

Great analogy.  We're laying in bed fidgeting early on Christmas morning.  There are visions of sugar plums, ipods, and championships.  Finally, the sun peeks through the blinds, and we think that it's now socially appropriate to bumrush the tree in hopes that all our dreams would be realized.  After turning the corner, we see our dad, face down, slightly under the lower arches of our sparsely fir-populated tree.  Two-tenths of a bottle of Popov is laying on the floor, slightly more than an arms length away.  Saddened, we turn our eyes to the floor in dismay.  Over next to the pile of an empty 24 of Beast (empty cans stacked back in) and a domino's pizza box, we see two small envelopes.  We rush over.  Inside each is a $20 gift certificate to Best Buy.  fuck yeah, time to go shopping. . . tomorrow, to fight the crowds, and dig through all the bins of the merchandise that the rich kids' folks didn't snap up before the holiday.  Perhaps we'll get lucky and get a slight defective, cherished item that was refused by some spoiled brat.  Until then, we're going next door to the Carter's to play with whatever shit those guys got for Christmas. We step over the mudded cuff of our dads' worn wrangler and run out the kitchen door.  This is going to be the Best Christmas Ever.

[jaklewein]

I just hope they hurry up and get a deal done with Pence so they can put it behind them and still have time to maximize Wandy and other's value.  I know a Pence deal is the most important to get right but with the state of the system the way it is...they're all damn important.

[billemite]

According to McTaggart:

The Phillies are pushing hard for Pence and could be willing to offer pitcher Vance Worley, outfielder Domonic Brown and a Minor League pitcher.

This is the first I've heard about Worley.

[jaklewein]

According to McTaggart:

This is the first I've heard about Worley.

a week or so ago someone said that Worley was the player they wanted to center any deal around involving an added bat.  I've seen the kid pitch once and he was on in this game.  He threw in the low 90's with an average breaking ball and an excellent change up that he used often.  It was only one game, but he seemed to have damn good control of all pitches.  Judging by the numbers I'm assuming he's kept this up.

[hostros7]

According to McTaggart:

This is the first I've heard about Worley.

Not surprisingly, that directly refutes the last report that said the Astros insisted on younger prospects.

[jbm]

According to McTaggart:

This is the first I've heard about Worley.

I watched a few innings of Worley's start the other night.  I realize he is kicking ass since he became a major leaguer and is in the middle of a hot streak, but I see him pitch and don't see how he does it.  I also realize if the Phillies expected his success to continue, there is no way they would do this trade.

[OregonStrosFan]

Great analogy.

Another great analogy (via Calcaterra): It’s getting closer to last call and Hunter Pence is starting to look better

[jaklewein]

Heyman saying the sense is that if Brown was sub'd for the third player currently being offered by PHI, along with Cosart and Singleton, that it would seal the deal.  Now that's what I'm talking about!

[JackAstro]

In this case, a picture just doesn't have the same effect.

NOOOOOOOOller coaster!

[MusicMan]

I watched a few innings of Worley's start the other night.  I realize he is kicking ass since he became a major leaguer and is in the middle of a hot streak, but I see him pitch and don't see how he does it.  I also realize if the Phillies expected his success to continue, there is no way they would do this trade.

This.  Worley has consiste4ntly been viewed as back-of-the-order material.  How'd the last guy we got from Philly like that work out?

Heyman saying the sense is that if Brown was sub'd for the third player currently being offered by PHI, along with Cosart and Singleton, that it would seal the deal.  Now that's what I'm talking about!

I read Cosart, Brown, plus a player.  If it's Brwon, Cosart, and Singleton, you fax that sonofabitch to the league offices RIGHT NOW.

[moriartp]

NOOOOOOOOller coaster!

This is CNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

[jaklewein]

I read Cosart, Brown, plus a player.  If it's Brwon, Cosart, and Singleton, you fax that sonofabitch to the league offices RIGHT NOW.

Yep, now they revised it to say Brown in place of Singleton with Cosart and another player.  Damn.  Sorry about that.

ETA:  Nope, I just plain misread it.  Again, sorry about that.

[Jacksonian]

IOW, there's a shit load of misinformation out there.

[Ron Brand]

The 'other guy' most often mentioned is Trevor May.

[Jacksonian]

The 'other guy' most often mentioned is Trevor May.

If Cosart, Singleton, and May aren't enough to pry Pence then Wade has a very specific player in mind from Philly.  Those 3 guys would slide in right behind Springer (once signed) as the top talents in the Astros minors.

[Reuben]

Jon Heyman continues to prove what a dumbass/biased asshole he is:

Pence may go now, but I'm hearing ask price remains unreasonable. #rays being more reasonable with upton.

Jon, do you even think about this shit while, or after, you type it?

[juliogotay]

Is the thought that Cosart is a top-of-the-rotation guy? I read somewhere recently he is not.

[Reuben]

If Cosart, Singleton, and May aren't enough to pry Pence then Wade has a very specific player in mind from Philly.  Those 3 guys would slide in right behind Springer (once signed) as the top talents in the Astros minors.

I saw that Singleton was ranked #30 overall among MLB prospects (by mlb.com I believe) before the season. Where do Cosart and May rank, generally? Are they seen as potential #1 or 2 starters?

[austro]

This.  Worley has consiste4ntly been viewed as back-of-the-order material.  How'd the last guy we got from Philly like that work out?

Exactly. I fear that Worley is Happ, part deux.

[moriartp]

The story on Cosart seems to be that he's got really good stuff but the big numbers aren't there yet. I think most consider him to be a front-of-the-rotation type. With Singleton, the worry is the huge platoon split and the overall lack of production since the first half of last year.

[hostros7]

I saw that Singleton was ranked #30 overall among MLB prospects (by mlb.com I believe) before the season. Where do Cosart and May rank, generally? Are they seen as potential #1 or 2 starters?

Cosart touches 99 and averages 95 mph on his fastball.  He's apparently got a legit curve.  Needs work but was a top 100 prospect going into the year and generated a lot of buzz with his performance at the futures game.

[hostros7]

so, let's say for a minute that "reports" are accurate and Wade has granted the Phillies an exclusive negotiating period until later this afternoon.  Why would he do this?  Do other MLB teams do this?  It seems that the Braves have the best prospects, and, with apparently several interested parties, wouldn't it behoove the Astros to keep as many around the hoop as possible?

[roadrunner]

so, let's say for a minute that "reports" are accurate and Wade has granted the Phillies an exclusive negotiating period until later this afternoon.  Why would he do this?  Do other MLB teams do this?  It seems that the Braves have the best prospects, and, with apparently several interested parties, wouldn't it behoove the Astros to keep as many around the hoop as possible?

Who's reporting this? 

[Ron Brand]

I never saw anything about an exclusive window, just that they were further along with the Phillies and put a deadline on them.

[moriartp]

Who's reporting this?  

No one, so far as I can tell. The most recent word (from Rosenthal) is that he's the Phillies' to lose, but I wouldn't take that to mean anything other than they're deepest in negotiations and currently have the most attractive offer.

ETA: ah, the deadline thing. Not an exclusive window, more a tactic to get exactly what they want from Philadelphia (presumably where they think they can get the best return). They're talking with lots of teams.

ETA: assuming the reports are even correct.

[Navin R Johnson]

MLB released an updated Top 50 prospects list yesterday.  Cosart is #37, Singleton #38

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/prospects/watch/y2011/index.jsp?tcid=mm_mlb_players

Cosart:
Scouting report: When healthy, the 2008 Draft pick has electric stuff, with one of the better fastballs in the Minors and a very good curve. He's lean and projectable and he's got good command of his stuff, though his changeup, as with many young pitchers, is behind the other offerings. The bigger issue has been staying injury-free. In 2009, it was his back and shoulder. Last year, his season ended at the end of June with a bad elbow.

Upside potential: Assuming he can stay away from the training room, he's got the stuff to pitch at or near the top of a rotation.

[hostros7]

No one, so far as I can tell. The most recent word (from Rosenthal) is that he's the Phillies' to lose, but I wouldn't take that to mean anything other than they're deepest in negotiations and currently have the most attractive offer.

from Rosenthal:

The teams will need to reach agreement by Friday, or the Astros will move on to other suitors — including the Phillies’ NL East rival, the Braves.

You're right that it doesn't explicitly say that no other teams are in the mix, but it certainly makes it seem like all the focus is on the phillies and everyone else is in the background until later today.  The Astros shouldn't be "moving on" to other suitors later.  They should be in the mix now.  But, I realize we are splitting hairs over bullshit at this point.  

[jbm]

Cosart touches 99 and averages 95 mph on his fastball.  He's apparently got a legit curve.  Needs work but was a top 100 prospect going into the year and generated a lot of buzz with his performance at the futures game.

I saw him in the futures game.  I swear that gun was juiced.  Almost everyone was throwing mid to high 90s, yet there were few swing and misses on fastballs.

The guys on the BP podcast, Parks at least, was a buzz about Cosart.  He kind of reminded me of Oswalt, more in his mannerisms than his arsenal.  Listed at 6'2" I believe, but looks smaller.  Not a big guy.  I can see people viewing him as a top of the rotation guy, and I can see the buzz, but he looked like a lot of prospects in that game in that he has good abililty, but the future is far from certain.

[billemite]

Rosenthal has tweeted that the Reds are in on Bourn and Pence. what do they have that we would want?

[Bench]

so, let's say for a minute that "reports" are accurate and Wade has granted the Phillies an exclusive negotiating period until later this afternoon.  Why would he do this? 

It is Ed Wade.  And it is the Phillies.  Do you really have to ask?

[Jacksonian]

Is the thought that Cosart is a top-of-the-rotation guy? I read somewhere recently he is not.

Top of the rotation but currently having control issues.

[Jacksonian]

I saw him in the futures game.  I swear that gun was juiced.  Almost everyone was throwing mid to high 90s, yet there were few swing and misses on fastballs.

The guys on the BP podcast, Parks at least, was a buzz about Cosart.  He kind of reminded me of Oswalt, more in his mannerisms than his arsenal.  Listed at 6'2" I believe, but looks smaller.  Not a big guy.  I can see people viewing him as a top of the rotation guy, and I can see the buzz, but he looked like a lot of prospects in that game in that he has good abililty, but the future is far from certain.

He's an unpolished 21 year old in high-A ball.  Terrific potential but needs further development.

[MusicMan]

Rosenthal has tweeted that the Reds are in on Bourn and Pence. what do they have that we would want?

Two very highly regarded catchers, to start with.

[roadrunner]

Two very highly regarded catchers, to start with.

Quick to lose hope with Castro?  I was impressed last year

[moriartp]

It'd be nice to get a good third baseman back in one deal or another, but I'm not sure any of these teams really fits there.

[roadrunner]

Not knowing enough about any of the other teams' prospects in play, I would like more than anything to just load up on pitching prospects.  I know that's a general statement, but it seems like young pitching is the quickest way to turn around an organization.

[Ron Brand]

Quick to lose hope with Castro?  I was impressed last year

I think we've all seen how dreadfully thin the Astros are at catcher and how much of a problem it can be.

[moriartp]

Not knowing enough about any of the other teams' prospects in play, I would like more than anything to just load up on pitching prospects.  I know that's a general statement, but it seems like young pitching is the quickest way to turn around an organization.

The Braves offer the best depth in that regard. Teheran, Vizcaino, Delgado, Minor, and even more.

I wonder if the Astros would deal both Bourn and Pence. If they sent Pence to the Phillies and Bourn to the Braves, they could get some serious talent back.

[Jacksonian]

Two very highly regarded catchers, to start with.

They've got a few position players as well, but I'm not versed enough in the Reds' prospects to offer a judgement.

I know they have a 3b prospect but don't know how good he is defensively.  Yonder Alonso could probably supplant Wallace right now.  That's the most detail I've got.

[Jacksonian]

The Braves offer the best depth in that regard. Teheran, Vizcaino, Delgado, Minor, and even more.

I wonder if the Astros would deal both Bourn and Pence. If they sent Pence to the Phillies and Bourn to the Braves, they could get some serious talent back.

I don't think Bourn would fetch any of the Braves best pitching prospects.

[moriartp]

Heyman: source: pence was told during last night's game he was being pulled due to trade, but then he wasnt pulled. #tradedeadline

Or in other words, "wankwankwankwankwankwankwankwank."

[jbm]

The Braves offer the best depth in that regard. Teheran, Vizcaino, Delgado, Minor, and even more.

The Braves are bad mfers when it comes to finding pitching.  Undrafted guys, late round guys, international guys, trade guys.  Their ability in this regard is very impressive.

[Jacksonian]

Rosenthal says the Reds are hot for Bourn.  I don't like the idea of Bourn patrolling the depths of Tammy Faye.

[jaklewein]

I don't think Bourn would fetch any of the Braves best pitching prospects.

I've heard the same around here on the radio waves and with some of my good friends who are unfortunately Braves fans.  WTF?  I just don't get it.  The Braves have terrific pitching, rotation all the way through to setup and then closer.  They don't have to out slug anyone, and I mean anyone.  I don't give a shit if you're talking about the Phils or not.  You'd think Bourn would be a perfect fit to defend and help you scratch out a win in what will certainly be a bunch of one run games down the stretch.

[austro]

Rosenthal says the Reds are hot for Bourn.  I don't like the idea of Bourn patrolling the depths of Tammy Faye.

That's not a big outfield. There's likely nothing he wouldn't get to.

[jbm]

Rosenthal says the Reds are hot for Bourn.  I don't like the idea of Bourn patrolling the depths of Tammy Faye.

I don't get it, the Reds have a good center fielder in Stubbs.  

[jbm]

I've heard the same around here on the radio waves and with some of my good friends who are unfortunately Braves fans.  WTF?  I just don't get it.  The Braves have terrific pitching, rotation all the way through to setup and then closer.  They don't have to out slug anyone, and I mean anyone.  I don't give a shit if you're talking about the Phils or not.  You'd think Bourn would be a perfect fit to defend and help you scratch out a win in what will certainly be a bunch of one run games down the stretch.

I agree, he seems like a perfect fit for Atlanta in that he manufactures runs.  Are they still trotting out McLouth?  If so, they definitely could use Bourn.

[Jacksonian]

I've heard the same around here on the radio waves and with some of my good friends who are unfortunately Braves fans.  WTF?  I just don't get it.  The Braves have terrific pitching, rotation all the way through to setup and then closer.  They don't have to out slug anyone, and I mean anyone.  I don't give a shit if you're talking about the Phils or not.  You'd think Bourn would be a perfect fit to defend and help you scratch out a win in what will certainly be a bunch of one run games down the stretch.

They don't like the idea of giving up their pitching prospects.  And you don't pay for speed.  You pay, if you must, for power.

I agree that Bourn is a best fit for Atlanta; I just don't think they'll pay for it.

[MusicMan]

Quick to lose hope with Castro?  I was impressed last year

No just commenting on what I know they have.

[roadrunner]

They don't like the idea of giving up their pitching prospects.  And you don't pay for speed.  You pay, if you must, for power.

I agree that Bourn is a best fit for Atlanta; I just don't think they'll pay for it.

According to Buster they aren't willing to give up any of their top 4 pitching prospects for any player.

[OregonStrosFan]

Crawfish Boxes has a good series of screen grabs from the Pence wikipedia page. Entertaining reading. LINK

[MusicMan]

https://mobile.twitter.com/#!/Joelsherman1/status/96969998739841026

Sherman says Astros prefer Braves prospects (duh) but braves won't give up Minor.

[jaklewein]

I agree, he seems like a perfect fit for Atlanta in that he manufactures runs.  Are they still trotting out McLouth?  If so, they definitely could use Bourn.

Yeah, a mixture of McLouth and Schaffer in CF, flanked by Heyward in RF (who's slumping mightly) and whoever the pick of the day is in LF.  They'd love for Prado to play LF fulltime but with Chipper being well, Chipper, that's never going to happen.

I wonder, just wonder, would any of you be high on a deal that involved Heyward coming over the Houston?  He's slumping, but he had shoulder problems a month or so ago.  Personally, I think he's hurt and just playing for the team at this point.  If I'm right, he could well be the best player out of anyone discussed in trades to this point.  Not saying the Braves would part with him, but if they want to hang on to most of thier pitching...

[roadrunner]

Yeah, a mixture of McLouth and Schaffer in CF, flanked by Heyward in RF (who's slumping mightly) and whoever the pick of the day is in LF.  They'd love for Prado to play LF fulltime but with Chipper being well, Chipper, that's never going to happen.

I wonder, just wonder, would any of you be high on a deal that involved Heyward coming over the Houston?  He's slumping, but he had shoulder problems a month or so ago.  Personally, I think he's hurt and just playing for the team at this point.  If I'm right, he could well be the best player out of anyone discussed in trades to this point.  Not saying the Braves would part with him, but if they want to hang on to most of thier pitching...

I'd take Heyward over Dom Brown, but I don't see the Braves dealing Heyward.

[jaklewein]

https://mobile.twitter.com/#!/Joelsherman1/status/96969998739841026

Sherman says Astros prefer Braves prospects (duh) but braves won't give up Minor.

I would hate to see Minor as the centerpiece of any deal the Astros make.  The kid has all the tools but I'm just not sure he has it between the ears.  He's been all over the place every time they bring him up.  Braves obviously disagree.

[Jacksonian]

https://mobile.twitter.com/#!/Joelsherman1/status/96969998739841026

Sherman says Astros prefer Braves prospects (duh) but braves won't give up Minor.

Olney doesn't think the Braves are going to deal any of their best pitching prospects for anything.

[drew corleone]

Any chance of getting Brown in a deal with the Phillies and then flipping him for another couple of prospects?

[Jacksonian]

Stark says now they're trying to get a 3-way going. http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/page/rumblings110729/ranking-mlb-trade-chips

[Matt]

Stark says now they're trying to get a 3-way going. http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/page/rumblings110729/ranking-mlb-trade-chips

Who doesn't try that at least once in their life?

[chuck]

Stark says now they're trying to get a 3-way going. http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/page/rumblings110729/ranking-mlb-trade-chips

The critical piece:

"The reason for that is this: The Phillies initially offered their two best prospects, pitcher Jarred Cosart and first baseman Jonathan Singleton, and were told that wasn't enough. The Phillies then offered to include their right fielder, Domonic Brown. But the Astros, according to one team that spoke with them, would prefer to spin Brown elsewhere for multiple prospects than take him themselves."

This would be a home run, slam dunk, hole in one, or whatever sports metaphor you'd like to use. If the Astros can get the Phillies' two best prospects AND some other team's two best prospects for Blinker that would be outrageous. I have never really been all that keen on Domonic, to be honest, but if someone else is, god bless them.

[OregonStrosFan]

This would be a home run, slam dunk, hole in one, or whatever sports metaphor you'd like to use. If the Astros can get the Phillies' two best prospects AND some other team's two best prospects for Blinker that would be outrageous.

This, exactly.

[Jacksonian]

The critical piece:

"The reason for that is this: The Phillies initially offered their two best prospects, pitcher Jarred Cosart and first baseman Jonathan Singleton, and were told that wasn't enough. The Phillies then offered to include their right fielder, Domonic Brown. But the Astros, according to one team that spoke with them, would prefer to spin Brown elsewhere for multiple prospects than take him themselves."

This would be a home run, slam dunk, hole in one, or whatever sports metaphor you'd like to use. If the Astros can get the Phillies' two best prospects AND some other team's two best prospects for Blinker that would be outrageous. I have never really been all that keen on Domonic, to be honest, but if someone else is, god bless them.

The question then becomes who would want Brown for the price the Astros set?

I'm also beginning to think the Astros are going to kick in another player or 2, probably prospects, to get what they want.

[chuck]

The question then becomes who would want Brown for the price the Astros set?

I'm also beginning to think the Astros are going to kick in another player or 2, probably prospects, to get what they want.

The Astros have prospects?

[Matt]

The Astros have prospects?

Once they trade Pence?

[Jacksonian]

The Astros have prospects?

Actually I was thinking last night that Martinez, Hinze, and Goebbert might be good pieces to build the team around, along with Altuve and Castro.  Not untradeable, but worth giving a long look.

Rosenthal is trying to confirm Stark's report.

[remy]

Who doesn't try that at least once in their life?

Pretty sure that's the conversation Hunter was excited to get back in the hot tub about.

[chuck]

Actually I was thinking last night that Martinez, Hinze, and Goebbert might be good pieces to build the team around, along with Altuve and Castro.  Not untradeable, but worth giving a long look.

I'd like to think you could add Telvin Nash to that list. It's going to be a weird-ass infield alignment with three people playing first base.

In reading through comments and blogs and so on there is a significant Boycott the Astros if They Trade Pence contingent out there. So beyond the team's picking up three, four, five solid prospects additional upside may include a decidedly more pleasant atmosphere at MMP next year. Imagine Postolos' confusion when the Goya tamale versus canned beans versus tortilla race is met with utter silence.

[Jacksonian]

And now Rosenthal says that Wade's trying to deal Bourn, Wandy, and Myers is getting in the way of making the Pence deal.

[Jacksonian]

I'd like to think you could add Telvin Nash to that list. It's going to be a weird-ass infield alignment with three people playing first base.

In reading through comments and blogs and so on there is a significant Boycott the Astros if They Trade Pence contingent out there. So beyond the team's picking up three, four, five solid prospects additional upside may include a decidedly more pleasant atmosphere at MMP next year. Imagine Postolos' confusion when the Goya tamale versus canned beans versus tortilla race is met with utter silence.

Nash is far too raw for me to think like that.  If Villar can continue to develop offensively over the next year or so then I'd put him there as well.

[jbm]

I'd like to think you could add Telvin Nash to that list. It's going to be a weird-ass infield alignment with three people playing first base.

In reading through comments and blogs and so on there is a significant Boycott the Astros if They Trade Pence contingent out there. So beyond the team's picking up three, four, five solid prospects additional upside may include a decidedly more pleasant atmosphere at MMP next year. Imagine Postolos' confusion when the Goya tamale versus canned beans versus tortilla race is met with utter silence.

Those people boycotting because of Pence will one day have their ass in the seats screaming for Altuve.  

[Matt]

And now Rosenthal says that Wade's trying to deal Bourn, Wandy, and Myers is getting in the way of making the Pence deal.

That's easy, keep Bourn then.

[Jacksonian]

That's easy, keep Bourn then.

Current thinking is Wandy will go to the third team.  His last 2 starts have to have increased his value a little despite his contract.

[hostros7]

And now Rosenthal says that Wade's trying to deal Bourn, Wandy, and Myers is getting in the way of making the Pence deal.

The Astros' minor league filler is probably starting to get a little nervous.  

[Bench]

Those people boycotting because of Pence will one day have their ass in the seats screaming for Altuve.  

Those people are white. 

[jaklewein]

And now Rosenthal says that Wade's trying to deal Bourn, Wandy, and Myers is getting in the way of making the Pence deal.

Damnit.  This is what I didn't want to happen.  I'm going to be on edge until a deal is made.  Ugh.

[chuck]

Those people are white. 

And I've noticed they almost invariably root for the tamale.

[Jacksonian]

Those people are white. 

So they'll pronounce his name wrong.  They'll still be screaming for him.

[chuck]

So they'll pronounce his name wrong.  They'll still be screaming for him.

They will certainly voice a voiceless alveolar fricative, you are quite right about that.

[Jacksonian]

I guess that seals it.  Greg Lucas seems convinced it'll happen any time now.

[Matt]

I guess that seals it.  Greg Lucas seems convinced it'll happen any time now.

Just a matter of what's coming back?

[Jacksonian]

Just a matter of what's coming back?

Check your sarc meter.

[Jacksonian]

And now predictably the speculation is that the 3rd team is the Yankees.

[BUWebguy]

And now predictably the speculation is that the 3rd team is the Yankees.

Flip Brown for Joba and Hughes! #thingswe'dsayifthiswas2007

[Lurch]

DKnobler
One scout on Hunter Pence: "He'll kill you in the outfield. He can throw, but every time I see him, he falls down once a game."

Damnit, they're on to us!

[Matt]

Damnit, they're on to us!

Pull the trigger Wade! Pull it!

[Señor Stan]

Billy from 'Family Circus" thinks Pence takes "unconventional" routes to fly balls.

[Lurch]

Pull the trigger Wade! Pull it!

The negativity toward him on twitter is overwhelming.  Phillies phans are losing their shit that this might actually happen.  Should be fun to watch if it does.

[Ron Brand]

The negativity toward him on twitter is overwhelming.  Phillies phans are losing their shit that this might actually happen.  Should be fun to watch if it does.

Fuck 'em.

[Matt]

The negativity toward him on twitter is overwhelming.  Phillies phans are losing their shit that this might actually happen.  Should be fun to watch if it does.

Would they rather have BJ Upton?

[Russe]

I just hope this happens soon, I'd like to at least be sorta productive this afternoon...

[VirtualBob]

They will certainly voice a voiceless alveolar fricative, you are quite right about that.

I'm a linguist and I have no idea what you are trying to say there ... or are you just throwing out random vocabulary?

[Rebel Jew]

The negativity toward him on twitter is overwhelming.  Phillies phans are losing their shit that this might actually happen.  Should be fun to watch if it does.

Like I said before, the fans of whichever team gets him are going to be THRILLED once they see him play. His infectious "effort" will surprise and win over fans who probably know him mostly from his stats and whatever rep he has. It takes a while for the suck to really sink in.

[Matt]

Like I said before, the fans of whichever team gets him are going to be THRILLED once they see him play. His infectious "effort" will surprise and win over fans who probably know him mostly from his stats and whatever rep he has. It takes a while for the suck to really sink in.

By that time the Astros will be halfway to Mexico.

[chuck]

I'm a linguist and I have no idea what you are trying to say there ... or are you just throwing out random vocabulary?

They say ho-zay when it should be ho-say.

Voiceless alveolar fricative: s

Voiced alveolar fricative: z

I don't typically require encouragement to be pedantic but I do appreciate it.

[austro]

By that time the Astros will be halfway to Mexico.

Me and my uncle went ridin' down,
South Colorado, West Texas bound.
We stopped over in Santa Fe,
That bein' the point just about half way,
And you know it was the hottest part of the day.

I took the horses up to the stall,
Went to the barroom, ordered drinks for all.
Three days in the saddle, you know my body hurt,
It bein' summer, I took off my shirt,
And I tried to wash off some of that dusty dirt.

When Texas cowboys, they's all around,
With liquor and money, they loaded down.
So soon after payday, know it seemed a shame;
You know my uncle, he starts a friendly game,
High-low jack and the winner take the hand.

My uncle starts winnin'; cowboys got sore.
One of them called him, and then two more,
Accused him of cheatin'; Oh no, it couldn't be.
I know my uncle, he's as honest as me,
And I'm as honest as a Denver man can be.

One of them cowboys, he starts to draw,
And I shot him down, Lord he never saw.
Well I grabbed a bottle, cracked him in the jaw,
Shot me another, oh damn he won't grow old.
In the confusion, my uncle grabbed the gold,
And we high-tailed it down to Mexico.

I love those cowboys, I love their gold,
I loved my uncle, God rest his soul,
Taught me good, Lord, Taught me all I know
Taught me so well, I grabbed that gold
And I left his dead ass there by the side of the road.


I hope Wade learned well.

[VirtualBob]

They say ho-zay when it should be ho-say.

Voiceless alveolar fricative: s

Voiced alveolar fricative: z

I don't typically require encouragement to be pedantic but I do appreciate it.

My bad ... I was trying to do something with "Altuve" :-)

[Navin R Johnson]

How long until the Astros start doing the Jose Altuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuze ala Jose Cruuuuz?

[Navin R Johnson]

Speaking of, Altuve.  Not sure what the turn around is on making 20K bobbleheads, but I assume we will know the answer when Drayton announces Altuve Bobblehead day sometime soon.

[Ebby Calvin]

Speaking of, Altuve.  Not sure what the turn around is on making 20K bobbleheads, but I assume we will know the answer when Drayton announces Altuve Bobblehead day sometime soon.

Altuve Garden Gnome

[Matt]

Speaking of, Altuve.  Not sure what the turn around is on making 20K bobbleheads, but I assume we will know the answer when Drayton announces Altuve Bobblehead day sometime soon.

Pam probably has a direct line to the factories in Guangzhou.

[Jacksonian]

So is Berman (the one in Houston) reliable?

[Ebby Calvin]

So is Berman (the one in Houston) reliable?

Generally, yes.  Why?

[Jacksonian]

Generally, yes.  Why?

Says another team is in on Pence.

[Bench]

My bad ... I was trying to do something with "Altuve" :-)

I thought linguists were supposed to be cunning.

[hostros7]

Speaking of, Altuve.  Not sure what the turn around is on making 20K bobbleheads, but I assume we will know the answer when Drayton announces Altuve Bobblehead day sometime soon.

Good news: the only bobblehead day left is for Carlos
Bad news: Hunter Pence kids t-shirt day is Aug. 21st

[Jacksonian]

Crack Heyman says now Phils are offering Worley, Brown, Cosart, and Singleton. 

I'm sure there's more going their way than just Pence.

[roadrunner]

Crack Heyman says now Phils are offering Worley, Brown, Cosart, and Singleton. 

I'm sure there's more going their way than just Pence.

I think I would do Wandy + Pence for that.

[Bench]

Crack Heyman says now Phils are offering Worley, Brown, Cosart, and Singleton. 

I'm sure there's more going their way than just Pence.

I think so too.  There has to be a third team in that deal kicking in something good.

Other than a bat, what are the Phillies looking for?

[Navin R Johnson]

Crack Heyman says now Phils are offering Worley, Brown, Cosart, and Singleton. 

I'm sure there's more going their way than just Pence.

Wonder if it includes one of the CC guys?  Hinze?  JD?  Paredes?  They get an immediate impact spaz, and a guy a year or 2 away.

[chuck]

This is getting good.

[austro]

Bad news: Hunter Pence kids t-shirt day is Aug. 21st

Well, now we know why McLane is so dead-set against trading Pence.

[Lurch]

Crack Heyman says now Phils are offering Worley, Brown, Cosart, and Singleton. 

I'm sure there's more going their way than just Pence.

Thats a fake Heyman

BTW, reading twitter kills braincells.

[EasTexAstro]

Thats a fake Heyman

BTW, reading twitter kills braincells.

Is that where Fredia went?

[Navin R Johnson]

@BenBadler Ben Badler
Let me amend that last tweet: If I'm the Pirates, I'd trade anyone in the ENTIRE organization for Domonic Brown, except Andrew McCutchen

===============


So how about Pence to PHI for Brown, Cosart, Singleton, then Brown to Pitt for Jameson Taillon?

[Bench]

Thats a fake Heyman

BTW, reading twitter kills braincells.

Oh NO!

RT @Ken_RosenthaI No Deal. #Phillies offer Hammels, #Astros GM Ed Wade offended. Won't do business with Phillies now.

[Jacksonian]

This is getting good.

Until you find out all of this was bullshit and Wade dealt Pence for a spastic infielder with stone hands, a weak and scattershot arm, and who can't figure out how to hit a slider off the plate but keeps trying.

[chuck]

Oh NO!

RT @Ken_RosenthaI No Deal. #Phillies offer Hammels, #Astros GM Ed Wade offended. Won't do business with Phillies now.

That's comedy, right there. Ed Wade won't do business with the Phillies. Pure gold.

[chuck]

Until you find out all of this was bullshit and Wade dealt Pence for a spastic infielder with stone hands, a weak and scattershot arm, and who can't figure out how to hit a slider off the plate but keeps trying.

If this is what they're after they could save themselves a hell of a lot of trouble and just move Pence to third.

[Bench]

Real Heyman says: reeling #reds going hard for bourn, as @Ken_Rosenthal reported. price set by #astros said to be high. #tradedeadline

[roadrunner]

I would love to see a tweet that said that any team asking for Pence/Bourn/Wandy is offering too little.  Apparently that's never the case, though.

[pots]

This is the most excited I've been about the Astros since the were up 4-2 heading to the bottom of the 9th on April 1st.

[Bench]

Regarding Reds, Travis Wood was scratched from his start tonight.

[Navin R Johnson]

@JimBowdenESPNxm JIM BOWDEN
"Reds Travis Wood has been scratched from his start @ Louisville tonight according to source....possible trade? or call-up? or? #TRADES"

[OregonStrosFan]

This is the most excited I've been about the Astros since the were up 4-2 heading to the bottom of the 9th on April 1st.

Nice!

[subnuclear]

I'm trying not to get my hopes up.

[Navin R Johnson]

Damn, this thread is up to 6400 views, which equals about all the other threads on the 1st page combined or 6399 more views than the front page.

[OregonStrosFan]

Wonder if it includes one of the CC guys?  Hinze?  JD?  Paredes?  They get an immediate impact spaz, and a guy a year or 2 away.

Please no on JD. I would REALLY like to see him with the Astros. [Accordingly, you should consider him all but gone... UGH!]

[Randy Watson]

Would be nice to garner a few top 75 type prospects.  

[Jacksonian]

Damn, this thread is up to 6400 views, which equals about all the other threads on the 1st page combined or 6399 more views than the front page.

But isn't the front page how everyone gets in here?

[Guinness]

But isn't the front page how everyone gets in here?

I thought this was the front page?

[OregonStrosFan]

So is Berman (the one in Houston) reliable?

From what I've seen and read (from folks like Footer, etc), if Berman says he has Astros info its pretty much gospel...

[chuck]

Pence is in the lineup for tonight according to McTaggart.

[Randy Watson]

Pence is in the lineup for tonight according to McTaggart.

Furk

[JaneDoe]

Pence is in the lineup for tonight according to McTaggart.

They are just trying to throw us off....

[roadrunner]

$10 says he gets hurt tonight.

[austro]

They are just trying to throw us off....

$10 says he gets hurt tonight.

$10 says he does something to make us throw up tonight.

[dirty steve]

From what I've seen and read (from folks like Footer, etc), if Berman says he has Astros info its pretty much gospel...

berman usually scoops everybody with sports news in Houston.  i'd take what he says pretty seriously.

[hostros7]

Pence is in the lineup for tonight according to McTaggart.

BUT he wrote it in MARKER ON A DRY ERASE BOARD!!

I can't wait to get away from my computer.

And check obsessively from my blackberry.

Please let this deal get done soon.

[OregonStrosFan]

Pence is in the lineup for tonight according to McTaggart.

If its any consolation, it is written on a dry-erase board (seriously).

[Lurch]

If its any consolation, it is written on a dry-erase board (seriously).

The placement of the 1 made me chuckle.  OCD would kick in if I were within a mile of that board.

[Waldo]

If its any consolation, it is written on a dry-erase board (seriously).

Not to mention the fact that Pence's name is not as dark as everyone else's.

[Bench]

Not to mention the fact that Pence's name shows up the lightest.

The P is already disappearing.  It's like the photograph in Back to the Future.

[Navin R Johnson]

From Tag's

"MLB.com has confirmed Pence was briefly removed from the lineup prior to Thursday’s game in St. Louis because of potential trade"

[Rebel Jew]

This is the most excited I've been about the Astros since the were up 4-2 heading to the bottom of the 9th on April 1st.

those were the days

[Navin R Johnson]

Twitter & This thread

http://www.gifbin.com/bin/2074yu4sw2.gif

[Russ99]

I hope they delay a trade of Pence until the offseason at the earliest.

I'm very uneasy with the idea of Ed Wade trading our best asset, for a big chunk of the Astros future - especially to the Phillies, where Wade has gotten fleeced before.

Hopefully we'll have a new owner and much better GM by then.

[pots]

especially to the Phillies, where Wade has gotten fleeced before.

Help me remember, which trade did Wade get fleeced at with Phillies?

[roadrunner]

here we go

[Ron Brand]

Help me remember, which trade did Wade get fleeced at with Phillies?

Wasn't the breakdown on page three...

[OregonStrosFan]

If the comment below (coupled with the Pence rumors) is even remotely a possibility, y'all outta get started planning my wake now...

Phil Rogers (I know, I know) via Twitter: Scouts are talking about how hard the #astros Carlos Lee has played lately. Is he looking to become a #Pirate or an #Indian?

[pots]

Wasn't the breakdown on page three...

I clearly missed a trade.  Trying to find out which one it was...

[pots]

If the comment below (coupled with the Pence rumors) is even remotely a possibility, y'all outta get started planning my wake now...

Phil Rogers (I know, I know) via Twitter: Scouts are talking about how hard the #astros Carlos Lee has played lately. Is he looking to become a #Pirate or an #Indian?

Well now I know I'm dreaming.  Damn, good dream though.

[Navin R Johnson]

Carlos has been playing really well of late, well really for about 2 months.  If the Astros are willing to eat some of the contract and Carlos was willing to move, a contending team would be stupid not to call about him.

[Jacksonian]

I clearly missed a trade.  Trying to find out which one it was...

The one where they sent Oswalt to Philly for a light hitting 1b headcase and a bucket of balls.

[EasTexAstro]

The one where they sent Oswalt to Philly for a light hitting 1b headcase and a bucket of balls.

I'll see your bucket of balls and throw in a.....


I don't ever want to try and finish that sentence.....

[OregonStrosFan]

Carlos has been playing really well of late, well really for about 2 months.

Actually, yes he has...

[austro]

If they traded Carlos, who would play first against lefties?

[jaklewein]

If they traded Carlos, who would play first against lefties?

Who cares?

[Bench]

If they traded Carlos, who would play first against lefties?

Altuve!

[roadrunner]

If they traded Carlos, who would play first against lefties?

Probably just better off leaving 1b open to teach Wallace a lesson.

[Lurch]

@Buster_ESPN: As of 5:15 p.m., NL source says the Phillies have no intention of putting Domonic Brown in a deal for Pence.

[subnuclear]

I'm trying not to get my hopes up.

[Reuben]

Speaking of Carlos, Goff at the Examiner has a nice article on him, noting that he's unlikely to get traded, but he asked Lee about his previous experiences getting traded:

"You can't worry about it at all," he said. "You have to go out there and play your game. The front office will decide what's efficient. It's a business. It is a game, but at the same time, you have a lot of business. I've been traded before. Basically, you work here. This is your job and you can't worry about what happens in the front office or what people outside the game will do.

"What you do is wear the uniform that night, go out there, play your game, play hard and try to win. After the game, whatever happens, happens. You can't worry about what everyone else is saying."

[Navin R Johnson]

Probably just better off leaving 1b open to teach Wallace a lesson.

"My teams on the field" -Lizard King

[strosrays]

The one where they sent Oswalt to Philly for a light hitting 1b headcase and a bucket of balls.

Fleeced as white as snow.

[juliogotay]

I think I would do Wandy + Pence for that.

I'd like to send Happ back to them. He's never seemed happy in Houston.

[austro]

I'd like to send Happ back to them. He's never seemed happy in Houston.

You know, I hadn't put my finger on it until you said that, but that's exactly what he looks like on the mound: "Why am I here?"

[Reuben]

Latest from (hate to keep invoking the asshole, but) Heyman:

pence very likely to be moved now. appears #phillies are favored. #indians join #redsox, #reds in.

[das]

I'd like to send Happ back to them. He's never seemed happy in Houston.

You know, I hadn't put my finger on it until you said that, but that's exactly what he looks like on the mound: "Why am I here?"

You know, I really thought juliogotay was going in a different direction with that comment...

[Navin R Johnson]

"insiders" in full out wall shit slinging and mouthpiece for GM mode

Buster_ESPN Buster Olney
From an evaluator: Braves looking to be creative and do a Hunter Pence deal. Still talking. #trades

Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal
Sources: #Phillies, #Astros progressing toward Pence deal. #tradedeadline #MLB

jaysonst Jayson Stark
Multiple sources say no more talk of 3-team deal for Pence. If #Phillies-#Astros deal happens, it will just be 2-team swap #trades

SI_JonHeyman Jon Heyman
#indians being very aggressive. believed in mix on pence, ubaldo, ludwick, etc. #tradedeadline

[Matt]

"insiders" in full out wall shit slinging and mouthpiece for GM mode

Buster_ESPN Buster Olney
From an evaluator: Braves looking to be creative and do a Hunter Pence deal. Still talking. #trades

Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal
Sources: #Phillies, #Astros progressing toward Pence deal. #tradedeadline #MLB

jaysonst Jayson Stark
Multiple sources say no more talk of 3-team deal for Pence. If #Phillies-#Astros deal happens, it will just be 2-team swap #trades

SI_JonHeyman Jon Heyman
#indians being very aggressive. believed in mix on pence, ubaldo, ludwick, etc. #tradedeadline

All typed while sporting raging hard-ons.

[MusicMan]

3 of those 4 are not shit slingers. Lots of disinformation being "leaked" as part of negotiations.

[Reuben]

McTaggart says the Astros have told teams Barmes is not available. I like Barmes, but... isn't he an FA after this season? Why in the world would you make Pence, Bourn, etc. available and not Clint Barmes?

ETA: hmmm, then he twitters:

Just to clarify Barmes, some teams have been told he's not available. Doesn't mean all have.

[Navin R Johnson]

McTaggart says the Astros have told teams Barmes is not available. I like Barmes, but... isn't he an FA after this season? Why in the world would you make Pence, Bourn, etc. available and not Clint Barmes?

ETA: hmmm, then he twitters:

He is a FA at the end of the year, probably end up a Type B, meaning the Astros would receive draft pick if he leaves.   

[austro]

McTaggart says the Astros have told teams Barmes is not available. I like Barmes, but... isn't he an FA after this season? Why in the world would you make Pence, Bourn, etc. available and not Clint Barmes?

This may be a case where the club figures they're going to be trotting out a lot of young pitchers, and in the interest of trying to keep their confidence up they want to put a plus defensive SS out behind them. The draft pick probably doesn't hurt, either.

[BizidyDizidy]

We don't even have a can't hit decent fielder in the minors? For fuck's sake, what are the minors even there for?

[austro]

We don't even have a can't hit decent fielder in the minors? For fuck's sake, what are the minors even there for?

Depends on whether you trust Manzella.

[juliogotay]

6th place is pretty well secured whether Barmes or Elmer Fudd plays SS. A draft pick is probably better value in return than a player in a trade that Barmes would bring. It only took Paulino to get him here.

[BizidyDizidy]

Well he can't hit so that's a start

[austro]

6th place is pretty well secured whether Barmes or Elmer Fudd plays SS.

Sure, but there's still plenty of time for pitchers to get into bad habits if they think that pitching to contact is sure to result in baserunners.

[Reuben]

6th place is pretty well secured whether Barmes or Elmer Fudd plays SS. A draft pick is probably better value in return than a player in a trade that Barmes would bring. It only took Paulino to get him here.

Assuming Crane even allows them to offer arb and risk being on the hook for $6mil or whatever.

[chuck]

I haven't seen Villar enough to know what to make of him but I have heard that he plays close to MLB level defense.

[juliogotay]

I haven't seen Villar enough to know what to make of him but I have heard that he plays close to MLB level defense.

Inconsistant. Manzella isn't a bad option for a few months. He's solid. His AAA hitting stats are similar to Barmes this year. (I know AAA...) Barmes is fun to watch, though.

[Jacksonian]

I haven't seen Villar enough to know what to make of him but I have heard that he plays close to MLB level defense.

On defense he's ready.

[chuck]

On defense he's ready.

That's the impression I'd received and what I was hoping.

[Navin R Johnson]

phuturephillies james.
by Buster_ESPN
Singleton has been removed from the game in Clearwater goo.gl/UqlAT
 

[BizidyDizidy]

Posted in other thread - singleton, cosart and 2 ptbnl per rosenthal

[pots]

Cool.  Decent haul so far.

[juliogotay]

What do the Astros think of Hinze? He seems like a legit prospect to me. Any thoughts?

[roadrunner]

MLBTraderumors tweeted at Footer that they didn't think Barmes was a B free agent yet.  He'd have to improve.  It was weird considering MLBTraderumors for the most part just tweets rumor items.

[Jacksonian]

MLBTraderumors tweeted at Footer that they didn't think Barmes was a B free agent yet.  He'd have to improve.  It was weird considering MLBTraderumors for the most part just tweets rumor items.

They have a guy who does some very accurate FA type projections.

[Jacksonian]

What do the Astros think of Hinze? He seems like a legit prospect to me. Any thoughts?

He's a prospect but....

He's 4 years older than Singleton.

He's only 1 level ahead of Singleton.

This is his first year to hit like is now.

If he continues this and the light has gone on so much the better.

[Navin R Johnson]

MLBTraderumors tweeted at Footer that they didn't think Barmes was a B free agent yet.  He'd have to improve.  It was weird considering MLBTraderumors for the most part just tweets rumor items.

He does have to improve, but he is close.  Here is the link of where he stands now.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/07/eli.html

[roadrunner]

So what exactly is the point of OKC?  Didn't Melancon skip OKC, too?  Or is it just a "fuck it - they all suck so get them up there now"

[OregonStrosFan]

They have a guy who does some very accurate FA type projections.

Yep, VERY accurate. The thing that has hurt Barmes is all the time he has missed. If he stays healthy for the rest of the season, he has a very legitimate chance to be a Type B FA...

[Fynn]

Posted in other thread - singleton, cosart and 2 ptbnl per rosenthal

A report that one of the PTBNL is Josh Zeid, pitcher in AA.

http://twitter.com/#!/JSalisburyCSN/statuses/97122661339103232

[Fynn]

Link didn't work.  Here is another link

http://www.csnphilly.com/07/29/11/Source-Phillies-get-Pence-from-Astros/news_phillies.html?blockID=544714&feedID=6332

[Ron Brand]

I'm disappointed there's no Domonic Brown after getting teased, but it's definitely two guys with a lot of upside to them.

[mrpink]

So what exactly is the point of OKC?  Didn't Melancon skip OKC, too?  Or is it just a "fuck it - they all suck so get them up there now"

I'm much too lazy to look it up but I think Melancon pitched with the Yankees before we got him so he was already "ML ready".

[chuck]

I'm much too lazy to look it up but I think Melancon pitched with the Yankees before we got him so he was already "ML ready".

He'd pitched for the Yankees in a dozen games or so in 2009.