Author Topic: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot  (Read 6295 times)

OregonStrosFan

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2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« on: November 29, 2010, 02:42:45 pm »
Just went out to the 500+ BBWAA.  LINK 1; LINK 2; LINK 3 (McTaggart re: Bagwell)
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ValpoCory

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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2010, 03:18:02 pm »
Just went out to the 500+ BBWAA.  LINK 1; LINK 2; LINK 3 (McTaggart re: Bagwell)

"Led by ... Carlos Beltran, ... Jeff Kent, ... the star-studded Astros made it to the World Series for the first time in franchise history. "

Nice McTaggart.

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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2010, 09:04:39 pm »
"Led by ... Carlos Beltran, ... Jeff Kent, ... the star-studded Astros made it to the World Series for the first time in franchise history. "

Nice McTaggart.
Yeah, that's some revisionist history right there. Of course, they probably would've made it in '04 if Pettitte hadn't been on the DL. Or even if Everett hadn't been on the DL. Or Wade Miller... ah, damn it.
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Limey

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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2010, 08:35:20 am »
Yeah, that's some revisionist history right there. Of course, they probably would've made it in '04 if Pettitte hadn't been on the DL. Or even if Everett hadn't been on the DL. Or Wade Miller... ah, damn it.

If Clemens had the sack to match his mouth and wallet.
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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2010, 08:46:39 am »
Bagwell is one of the best of his era. Other than a World Series title, he won every award you can win in baseball -- MVP (and Top 10 five other times), Rookie of the Year, Gold Glove, Silver Slugger three times (best offensve player at his position), and All-Star four times. A baseball hitter's job is to get on base, score runs, and drive in runs. He had 1,401 walks, 2,314 hits, and 128 hit by pitches, so he reached base 41% of the time he came to the plate over a 15-year period. He also scored 1,517 runs and 1,529 driven in -- an average of more than 100 of each per season. He hit 449 HR and stole 202 bases. He may have been the best base runner since Willie Mays. He even led the league in runs scored three times.
 
If Jeff Bagwell had played his whole career in Chicago or New York, he would have been considered the best NL first baseman ever (until Albert Pujols came along). He played in Houston and didn't get all the press, but until Pujols came along, Bagwell was the best NL first baseman ever.

Bagwell for HOF 2010!
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Ty in Tampa

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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2010, 09:01:35 am »
"Led by ... Carlos Beltran, ... Jeff Kent, ... the star-studded Astros made it to the World Series for the first time in franchise history. "

Nice McTaggart.

Seems minor to some, but that is inexcusable for the official Astros beat reporter for MLB.com. It still hasn't been fixed.
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Limey

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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2010, 09:06:31 am »
Seems minor to some, but that is inexcusable for the official Astros beat reporter for MLB.com. It still hasn't been fixed.

I'm surprised Fuckhouse hasn't gone AJ on him yet.
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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2010, 09:58:28 am »
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Houston

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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2010, 10:04:37 am »
"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it." - Rogers Hornsby

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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2010, 10:56:09 am »
Seems minor to some, but that is inexcusable for the official Astros beat reporter for MLB.com.
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BUWebguy

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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2010, 05:00:22 pm »
Neyer has long been a Bagwell-for-HOF proponent -- since he was active, I think.
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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2010, 12:13:10 am »
"wsafter96yrs wrote:
Bags is a roider and should be kept out of the hall like all of the other cheaters."

Nice comments on that McTaggart article.   That guy is a regular at BaylorFans.com, and is another one of those pro-Dallas anti-Houston losers.

Limey

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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2010, 08:42:00 am »
In case you hadn't seen it, Footer offers her 2 cents on Bags in the Hall.  A "yes", but not yet...
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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2010, 10:42:41 am »
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/tim_marchman/11/30/rafael.palmeiro.hof/index.html?eref=sihp

Quote
2. Jeff Bagwell: 70.4
Bagwell was a truly great player, the best first baseman to play between Lou Gehrig's retirement and Albert Pujols' debut. He hit for average and power, drew lots of walks, was excellent in the field and better on the bases, played every day and led a fine team. I have no idea why anyone would not vote for him.
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toddthebod

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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2010, 11:21:44 am »
I'm kind of hoping for a Bagwell/Biggio joint induction.  An Astros lovefest weekend at Cooperstown would be pretty cool.
Boom!

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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2010, 11:55:48 am »
In case you hadn't seen it, Footer offers her 2 cents on Bags in the Hall.  A "yes", but not yet...

Something I've never gotten... how come a player can be voted in on his 2nd, 10th, 15th year on the ballot if he's not worthy on his first? What is Bagwell going to do between now and two years from now that makes him more Hall-worthy?
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Ron Brand

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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2010, 12:07:29 pm »
Something I've never gotten... how come a player can be voted in on his 2nd, 10th, 15th year on the ballot if he's not worthy on his first? What is Bagwell going to do between now and two years from now that makes him more Hall-worthy?

Sometimes it's because of who else is on the ballot. A lot of these jokesters aren't comfortable with more than one or two guys getting in. Sometimes it's the change in how careers are viewed over the context of time. Sometimes it takes a groundswell of people trying to illustrate a player's worthiness or the development of metrics that make that illustration clearer. One of the more interesting aspects of Hall voting is that it's unpredictable in many ways.
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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2010, 12:08:06 pm »
Something I've never gotten... how come a player can be voted in on his 2nd, 10th, 15th year on the ballot if he's not worthy on his first? What is Bagwell going to do between now and two years from now that makes him more Hall-worthy?

I agree totally. I've never understood the whole 15 year ballot thing anyway.
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austro

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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2010, 12:10:32 pm »
Something I've never gotten... how come a player can be voted in on his 2nd, 10th, 15th year on the ballot if he's not worthy on his first? What is Bagwell going to do between now and two years from now that makes him more Hall-worthy?

Some voters may not believe that he's worthy and may require a few years of debate/cajoling before they change their minds. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the voters don't really appreciate Bagwell's excellence at first, because he was certainly underappreciated while he was playing. But they'll eventually be convinced (or be replaced by new voters that don't require convincing).
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Houston

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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2010, 12:14:41 pm »
Some voters may not believe that he's worthy and may require a few years of debate/cajoling before they change their minds. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the voters don't really appreciate Bagwell's excellence at first, because he was certainly underappreciated while he was playing. But they'll eventually be convinced (or be replaced by new voters that don't require convincing).

I can appreciate that, but if enough voters disregard a player in his first year (if he gets fewer than 5% of the vote), he'll be dropped from the ballot forever.
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Houston

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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2010, 12:18:00 pm »
Some voters may not believe that he's worthy and may require a few years of debate/cajoling before they change their minds. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the voters don't really appreciate Bagwell's excellence at first, because he was certainly underappreciated while he was playing. But they'll eventually be convinced (or be replaced by new voters that don't require convincing).

One more thing... the five-year wait between retirement and eligibility for HOF consideration is supposed to be the time for reflection and debate.
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austro

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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2010, 12:38:52 pm »
I can appreciate that, but if enough voters disregard a player in his first year (if he gets fewer than 5% of the vote), he'll be dropped from the ballot forever.

True, but that's a pretty low bar. I don't think there are many, if any, Hall of Famers who ever came close to the 5% cutoff. Blyleven's probably the closest one that I can think of. I think he'll get in this year, but his path has been a long one. I don't know what his lowest vote percentage was.
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austro

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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2010, 12:40:39 pm »
One more thing... the five-year wait between retirement and eligibility for HOF consideration is supposed to be the time for reflection and debate.

Absolutely, and in a perfect world the people who are doing the voting would be doing some thinking during that period. But I think that there's a significant percentage of voters who don't put any serious thought into a player's qualifications until he shows up on the ballot.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2010, 12:41:55 pm »
I agree totally. I've never understood the whole 15 year ballot thing anyway.

Because at some point you have to clean the ballot up or it becomes a mess.  You can't have guys who played their last game in 1965 to still be on the ballot in 2036.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2010, 12:44:09 pm »
True, but that's a pretty low bar. I don't think there are many, if any, Hall of Famers who ever came close to the 5% cutoff. Blyleven's probably the closest one that I can think of. I think he'll get in this year, but his path has been a long one. I don't know what his lowest vote percentage was.

Blyleven received 17.5% of the vote in his first year of eligibility. 
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2010, 12:45:10 pm »
Because at some point you have to clean the ballot up or it becomes a mess.  You can't have guys who played their last game in 1965 to still be on the ballot in 2036.
I think his point was the opposite. He seems to want them off the ballot sooner, rather than later.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2010, 12:47:06 pm »
I think his point was the opposite. He seems to want them off the ballot sooner, rather than later.

Oh.  Well nevermind.
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Mr. Happy

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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2010, 12:48:25 pm »
Because at some point you have to clean the ballot up or it becomes a mess.  You can't have guys who played their last game in 1965 to still be on the ballot in 2036.

I understand your point, but I was really intimating the opposite. I wonder how the voters would react if the year that the palyer was up for the HOF was the only year that the player would be up. The voters have created classes of members of the HOF, i.e., those who have been elected in their first year and all others. I think that this is wrong. It is a crime that Bert Blyleven is not in yet.
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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2010, 12:50:11 pm »
Absolutely, and in a perfect world the people who are doing the voting would be doing some thinking during that period. But I think that there's a significant percentage of voters who don't put any serious thought into a player's qualifications until he shows up on the ballot.

Here is a list of some pretty good players who received less than 5% of the vote in their first year on the ballot:

Bill Buckner (2.1 percent, 1996)
Ken Caminiti (0.4 percent, 2007)
Jose Canseco (1.1 percent, 2007)
Joe Carter (3.8 percent, 2004)
Norm Cash (1.6 percent, 1980)
Cesar Cedeno (0.5 percent, 1992)
Ron Cey (1.9 percent, 1993)
Will Clark (4.4 percent, 2006)
David Cone (3.9 percent, 2009
Cecil Cooper (0 percent, 1993)
Mike Cuellar (0 percent, 1983)
Darrell Evans (1.7 percent, 1995)
Tony Fernandez (0.7 percent, 2007)
Kirk Gibson (2.5 percent, 2001)
Dwight Gooden (3.3 percent, 2006)
Bobby Grich (2.6 percent, 1992)
Pedro Guerrero (1.3 percent, 1998)
Tom Henke (1.2 percent, 2001)
Frank Howard (1.4 percent, 1979)
Jimmy Key (0.6 percent , 2004)
Carney Lansford (0.6 percent, 1998)
Bill Madlock (4.5 percent, 1993)
Bobby Murcer (0.7 percent, 1989)
Milt Pappas (1.2 percent, 1979)
Boog Powell (1.3 percent, 1983)
Dan Quisenberry (3.8 percent, 1996)
Willie Randolph (1.1 percent, 1998)
Rick Reuschel (0.4 percent, 1997)
J.R. Richard (1.6 percent, 1986)
Bret Saberhagen (1.3 percent, 2007)
Ted Simmons (3.7 percent, 1994)
Dave Stieb (1.4 percent, 2004)
Dizzy Trout (0.5 percent, 1964)
Virgil Trucks (2 percent, 1964)
Bob Welch (0.2 percent, 2000)
Lou Whitaker (2.9 percent, 2001)
Frank White (3.8 percent, 1996)
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Houston

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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2010, 12:53:11 pm »
Final list, I promise.

These players were voted into the Hall of Fame by the Veterans Committee since 1980. All of them received less than 5% of the votes by the writers.

Richie Ashburn
Bobby Doerr
Rick Ferrell
Joe Gordon
Travis Jackson
Chuck Klein
Tony Lazzeri
Ernie Lombardi
Hal Newhouser
Arky Vaughan
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Lurch

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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2010, 01:16:48 pm »
Something I've never gotten... how come a player can be voted in on his 2nd, 10th, 15th year on the ballot if he's not worthy on his first? What is Bagwell going to do between now and two years from now that makes him more Hall-worthy?

Apologies if this has already been stated, but there are some voters who use the year to rank degree of worthiness.  Ie, in their minds, only the top of the top can be first ballot, but second ballot drops the barrier to entry.
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Ron Brand

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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2010, 01:37:54 pm »
Final list, I promise.

These players were voted into the Hall of Fame by the Veterans Committee since 1980. All of them received less than 5% of the votes by the writers.

Richie Ashburn
Bobby Doerr
Rick Ferrell
Joe Gordon
Travis Jackson
Chuck Klein
Tony Lazzeri
Ernie Lombardi
Hal Newhouser
Arky Vaughan

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Re: 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2010, 03:39:19 pm »
Final list, I promise.

These players were voted into the Hall of Fame by the Veterans Committee since 1980. All of them received less than 5% of the votes by the writers.

Richie Ashburn
Bobby Doerr
Rick Ferrell
Joe Gordon
Travis Jackson
Chuck Klein
Tony Lazzeri
Ernie Lombardi
Hal Newhouser
Arky Vaughan

Rick Ferrell?  Didn't he shoot Derek Jeter?