Sonofabitch...again!

[HudsonHawk]

I'm at Outback, right now, and TWICE the waitress has sat down at my table...once with food on the table!

Seriously...suggestions?

[Ron Brand]

Call the manager over and tell them that you hate that, you want them to stop it, and until they apologize for it and stop you won't ever go back.

[Ron Brand]

Also, tell them you're writing a letter to Regional and to Corporate complaining about this ridiculous practice. It's not like you're having the waitress over for dinner.

[Ron Brand]

If you have an extra couple of seconds, work in a complaint about 'unsweet tea' while you're at it. Thanks.

[HudsonHawk]

If you have an extra couple of seconds, work in a complaint about 'unsweet tea' while you're at it. Thanks.

I'll see what I can do. Definitely no tip, and the manager will get an earful.

[Bench]

I'm at Outback, right now, and TWICE the waitress has sat down at my table...once with food on the table!

Seriously...suggestions?

Seriously.  Just stop going to cheesy casual chain restaurants.  Those obviously aren't the right places for you.

[Ron Brand]

I'll see what I can do. Definitely no tip, and the manager will get an earful.

Is this in Midland? Have you enjoyed this treatment at other Outbacks, or just this one?

[HudsonHawk]

Seriously.  Just stop going to cheesy casual chain restaurants.  Those obviously aren't the right places for you.

Well aside from there being no othet choices, I don't see why I'm the one to have to suffer because of someone else's rude behavior.

[HudsonHawk]

Is this in Midland? Have you enjoyed this treatment at other Outbacks, or just this one?

Yes, it's in Midland. And I don't recall it happening at other Outbacks, though I don't eat here often.

[Fredia]

maybe its normal there, did she try and cut your  steak for you
i hate when that happens

[Ron Brand]

The suspense is killing me.

[HudsonHawk]

The suspense is killing me.

Ok, I left no tip and asked to speak to the manager. I told him I thought it was highly inappropriate, especially when I'm in the middle of eating(which she did twice). He apologized and said they discourage it, but don't forbid it. He offered me some free stuff, but I said that wasn't necessary  He asked if there was anything I wanted and I said for him to coach his waitstaff on good manners.

[Ron Brand]

Striking a blow. Good work.

[chuck]

Eating dinner at 5:45? What, you out with Alkie?

[drew corleone]

Come to think of it, Outback is the first restaurant I ever ate at where this happened.

[HudsonHawk]

Eating dinner at 5:45? What, you out with Alkie?

The bar closes at 11:00.  You gotta start early.

[Alkie]

Seriously.  Just stop going to cheesy casual chain restaurants.  Those obviously aren't the right places for you.

Really.

I mean, I totally agree with you HH, but the answer really is to stop eating at ridiculous chain shitholes meant for middle Americans who don't know any fucking better.   You do.

[Alkie]

Eating dinner at 5:45? What, you out with Alkie?

We eat at 6 now.

I can't wait for you to have kids so we can make fun of you when you realize that taking a 6 year old to dinner past their natural bedtime means you might as well have just stayed home.   I.  Can't.  Wait.

[Lurch]

My money says the manager lied to you to pass the buck.  I'm pretty sure they encourage it as it's highly unlikely the waitstaff actually enjoy sitting down with strangers at dinner, and I've seen it there a few times myself at random Outback locations around Texas.

That said, I thank stiffing her was itself rude and excessive.  Someone waitressing at Outback needs that 15% far more than you needed to punish her to make your point.  How about letting her know the first time that you didn't think it was appropriate and give her a chance to appologize and possibly let you know that shes encouraged by her boss to do so?  If she then did it again, sure, but until you let her know about your OCD how's she supposed to know?

[BizidyDizidy]

I think midland consitutes extenuating circumstances; wouldn't surprise me at all if outback is a top 5 destination there.

Now if your argument is to stay the hell out of midland, I can get behind that

[hostros7]

Well aside from there being no othet choices, I don't see why I'm the one to have to suffer because of someone else's rude behavior.

I thought Wall Street was fairly enjoyable given the options in Midland.

[austro]

I'm at Outback, right now, and TWICE the waitress has sat down at my table...once with food on the table!

Seriously...suggestions?

The first time I read this I thought it said "once with foot on the table!" And I was only mildly surprised.

[chuck]

I can't wait for you to have kids so we can make fun of you when you realize that taking a 6 year old to dinner past their natural bedtime means you might as well have just stayed home.   I.  Can't.  Wait.

Two words: Nanny.

[Alkie]

Two words: Nanny.

Ohhh.   Shit, I never thought of that.  We could pay someone to watch our child while we go eat at a normal adult time like when we went to dinner this last Saturday at 9pm for dinner while paying our babysitter to stay home?

I'm always the last to think of shit.

[HudsonHawk]

I thought Wall Street was fairly enjoyable given the options in Midland.

It is, but it's relatively expensive too, for the area anyway.

[HudsonHawk]

That said, I thank stiffing her was itself rude and excessive.  Someone waitressing at Outback needs that 15% far more than you needed to punish her to make your point.  How about letting her know the first time that you didn't think it was appropriate and give her a chance to appologize and possibly let you know that shes encouraged by her boss to do so?  If she then did it again, sure, but until you let her know about your OC how's she supposed to know?

Trust me, she knows now.

[Lurch]

Trust me, she knows now.

So do her kids.

[HudsonHawk]

So do her kids.

Well for their sake, I hope she's quick on the uptake.

[chuck]

Ohhh.   Shit, I never thought of that.  We could pay someone to watch our child while we go eat at a normal adult time like when we went to dinner this last Saturday at 9pm for dinner while paying our babysitter to stay home?

I'm always the last to think of shit.

Your kid knows how to work a remote control and a cell phone, doesn't she? I know she knows how to use a spreadsheet. No, on second thought, tell her to stay away from the computer and just leave her at home.

[Alkie]

Your kid knows how to work a remote control and a cell phone, doesn't she? I know she knows how to use a spreadsheet. No, on second thought, tell her to stay away from the computer and just leave her at home.

If I had any sense, I'd leave my wife home to watch the kid while I go eat.

[Limey]

Seriously people, if you don't know the hierarchy of tip outs in a restaurant, then you need to find out.  Typically, the bussers get 3% of the food sales - and that's deducted from the waiter's tips, regardless of whether there was a tip or not.  The bartender gets tipped on the booze sales, regardless of whether there's a tip or not.  The waiter gets what's left.

If you leave no tip, you haven't just left 0%, you've left -8 to -10%.  They make $2 / hour plus tips, so if you cost them on your check, it really hits. 

I understand if there's sometimes a need to make a point with the waiter.  But just make sure you know what you're doing when you do it.  Don't punish the waiter for a restaurant / management problem.  At least leave them something to cover their overhead on your meal.     

[HudsonHawk]

I understand if there's sometimes a need to make a point with the waiter.  But just make sure you know what you're doing when you do it.  Don't punish the waiter for a restaurant / management problem.  At least leave them something to cover their overhead on your meal.    

I paid my way through college waiting tables. I know exactly how it works.

[chuck]

If I had any sense, I'd leave my wife home to watch the kid while I go eat.

Or while you go out to eat with one of your girlfriends. I mean, what the hell's a wife for, anyway?

[Guinness]

I understand if there's sometimes a need to make a point with the waiter.  But just make sure you know what you're doing when you do it.  Don't punish the waiter for a restaurant / management problem.  At least leave them something to cover their overhead on your meal.     

Or maybe restaurants can pay waiters a real wage.

[Alkie]

Or maybe restaurants can pay waiters a real wage.

Or maybe we can all move to a magical planet without money or teenagers or brown people.

[Andyzipp]

Or maybe we can all move to a magical planet without money or teenagers or brown people.

And pay 30 bucks for a shitty burger.

[Alkie]

And pay 30 bucks for a shitty burger.

Wait, are you making fun of me or HH?

[Andyzipp]

Wait, are you making fun of me or HH?

Just extrapolating.  If waiters were paid 10 dollars an hour and the margins at restaurants remained at ~5%, then the cost of paying that fine upstanding waitstaff would be pushed to the customers.

[Guinness]

And pay 30 bucks for a shitty burger.

that's on a different thread

[chuck]

Or maybe we can all move to a magical planet without money or teenagers or brown people.

Or Australia.

[Alkie]

Just extrapolating.  If waiters were paid 10 dollars an hour and the margins at restaurants remained at ~5%, then the cost of paying that fine upstanding waitstaff would be pushed to the customers.

Socialist.

[Andyzipp]

Socialist.

Wouldn't that mean I would be fine with the margin being reduced to .5%?

[Alkie]

Wouldn't that mean I would be fine with the margin being reduced to .5%?

Racist.

[Bench]

I paid my way through college waiting tables. I know exactly how it works.

That's just cold.  It's one thing to do it out of ignorance, but I can't believe a former waiter would stiff any server. 

[Andyzipp]

Racist.

I only hire Honduran waitstaff, so guilty as charged.

[Alkie]

I only hire Honduran waitstaff, so guilty as charged.

Guess you won't be moving to Magical White Australia with chuck.

[Andyzipp]

Guess you won't be moving to Magical White Australia with chuck.

On the backs of 30 swimming Hondurans...

[Alkie]

On the backs of 30 swimming Hondurans...

Andybacks?

[Guinness]

Or Australia.

All waitstaff from Australia reside in England and work in the pubs.  True story.

[HudsonHawk]

Just extrapolating.  If waiters were paid 10 dollars an hour and the margins at restaurants remained at ~5%, then the cost of paying that fine upstanding waitstaff would be pushed to the customers.

It already is.

[HudsonHawk]

That's just cold.  It's one thing to do it out of ignorance, but I can't believe a former waiter would stiff any server. 

When the service is this appalling, I can't believe any former waiter wouldn't. Somewhere it's gotten lost that a tip is just that. This sense of tip entitlement is ridiculous.

[Limey]

It already is.

Except that the waiter pays the tax on the revenue, instead of the business customer.

[HudsonHawk]

Except that the waiter pays the tax on the revenue, instead of the business customer.

So?  The customer is still paying the cost of keeping that waiter employed.

[hostros7]

When the service is this appalling, I can't believe any former waiter wouldn't. Somewhere it's gotten lost that a tip is just that. This sense of tip entitlement is ridiculous.

I agree that a tip is discretionary in amount, but I think no tip is hard to justify.  While sitting down at the table with you is pretty annoying, did the server not still wait on your other request and bring you food, drink, etc.?  My opinion is that work is still worth some level of compensation, even if you think it should be lower given the intrusion.  At the end of the day though, it's your money and you are entitled to do with it what you will.  

Some people probably love that level of attention and misguide the waiter into believing that it is acceptable behavior.  I waited tables one summer in college and was always friendly and amicable but let the customer dictate the level of interaction.  You can tell some people love the waiter to fill the void in their level of conversation with their dining partner, or lack there of as it may be.  Personally, I tried to avoid it because it took away time from making sure all the other tables were receiving a high level of service.  If forced to offer an opinion on the situation, I'd blame the manager.  He should entirely discourage such an intrusion and should encourage his servers to stay on top of all his or her tables, not sit down at one.

[Bench]

Somewhere it's gotten lost that a tip is just that. 

But it isn't.  It's the only form of compensation waiters get.  The notion that it's "something extra" is completely wrong.  It's all they get.

[HudsonHawk]

But it isn't.  It's the only form of compensation waiters get.  The notion that it's "something extra" is completely wrong.  It's all they get.

No, it isn't wrong. If they think it's more than that, it's their problem not mine. Take my order and bring me my food with a little courtesy, and you'll get 20%+. But don't think you can treat me however the fuck you want and still be entitled to the tip.

[Bench]

No, it isn't wrong. If they think it's more than that, it's their problem not mine. Take my order and bring me my food with a little courtesy, and you'll get 20%+. But don't think you can treat me however the fuck you want and still be entitled to the tip.

Did she take your order?  Did she bring you your food?  That's the 15% right there.  Anything else is "the tip."

[HudsonHawk]

Did she take your order?  Did she bring you your food?  That's the 15% right there.  Anything else is "the tip."

You forgot the courtesy and respect part. If the waiter pulls out his dick and pisses on your food, you still feel he deserves 15% automatically because after all, he *did* bring it to the table?

[Andyzipp]

You forgot the courtesy and respect part. If the waiter pulls out his dick and pisses on your food, you still feel he deserves 15% automatically because after all, he *did* bring it to the table?

Which based on your description is exactly what she did.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

But it isn't.  It's the only form of compensation waiters get.  The notion that it's "something extra" is completely wrong.  It's all they get.

This is true. Some earn the tip better than others. But they should get 10% for just taking your order and not fucking anything up.

I think if one was compelled to stiff a waiter because of a behavior that one may find inappropriate then informing the manager is proper.

[hostros7]

Which based on your description is exactly what she did.

I wouldn't sweat it.  She probably has loads of mineral rights in the Permian and is just waiting tables at Outback for fun/subject matter for her next novel.

[Limey]

You forgot the courtesy and respect part. If the waiter pulls out his dick and pisses on your food, you still feel he deserves 15% automatically because after all, he *did* bring it to the table?

At that point, my whole meal is comped.

If you get an oil change from a surly mechanic, you don't have the option not to pay him.  You've still received the service.  You just take your business elsewhere.

The waiter didn't piss in your food, he/she sat at your table.  You have the opportunity to say "I'd prefer if you didn't sit", at which point the controversy ends.  You've still received waiter services, as well as bartender services and busboy services, all of which is settled by the waiter.  If you don't "tlp" the waiter, then you are making them pay for what you had. 

[Bench]

You forgot the courtesy and respect part. If the waiter pulls out his dick and pisses on your food, you still feel he deserves 15% automatically because after all, he *did* bring it to the table?

There's no lack of hyperbole and bombast in the internet chat room, but when she violates your personal space you say nothing to her and just tell her boss and stiff her.  A touch passive aggressive.  

[Ron Brand]

At least they'll probably remember you HH, should you ever go back there.

I know people always have The Fear of being remembered in that way at a restaurant, assuming that they might receive more than they'd asked for when their food was prepared. As a cook in high school and throughout college, I can say that we never messed up someone's food at the request of a waitress, no matter how much we wanted to spend the rest of the night with her.

There were a couple of ornery folk who managed to berate cooks into "a special" though, but that normally took personal intervention on the customer's part above and beyond any reasonable discussion or point of view.

[chuck]

On the backs of 30 swimming Hondurans...

Hell no, a Honduran can't swim worth a damn. It's a toss-up between Cubans and Costa Ricans. And a Cuban would swim the wrong damn way so I'm going to bridle up a gang of Ticas.

[chuck]

All waitstaff from Australia reside in England and work in the pubs.  True story.

I have an Australian friend who used to work in this here place.

I went in there one morning and helped her clean the taps.

[EasTexAstro]

I just take my kids. No one will sit with us. They could lose an arm if the food isn't brought promptly but there is raw meat that close.

[subnuclear]

Just extrapolating.  If waiters were paid 10 dollars an hour and the margins at restaurants remained at ~5%, then the cost of paying that fine upstanding waitstaff would be pushed to the customers.

Couldn't you just charge 15%-25% gratuity on everything and use that as the tip pool?  That wouldn't cost the customer anymore and would just make the tip non-optional.  It doesn't seem the balance sheet has to change that much to get rid of tipping.

[Ebby Calvin]

I went in there one morning and helped her clean the taps.

Is that what the kids call it nowadays?

[MusicMan]

Did she take your order?  Did she bring you your food?  That's the 15% right there.  Anything else is "the tip."

That's asinine.

[Bench]

That's asinine.

I think Limey's surly mechanic (why isn't there an indie band with that name?) explains it fairly well.  That's the way the system works. 

[Outlawscotty]

That's the way the system works.

Not necessarily.  You can HH them if you want, opinions be damned.

[subnuclear]

I think Limey's surly mechanic (why isn't there an indie band with that name?) explains it fairly well.  That's the way the system works. 

The whole point of a tip is that its optional.  If its not optional, they should make you agree to pay it and should be included in the price on the menu.  

[HudsonHawk]

If you get an oil change from a surly mechanic, you don't have the option not to pay him.  You've still received the service.  You just take your business elsewhere.

I've never felt obligated to tip the guy who changes my oil.  And I never said you shouldn't pay for a meal you eat.

If you don't "tlp" the waiter, then you are making them pay for what you had. 

Bullshit.  I paid the full cost of the meal.  To the penny.  What I didn't pay for was the "thank you" for the service.  Big difference.  Apples and chainsaws kind of difference.

[HudsonHawk]

There's no lack of hyperbole and bombast in the internet chat room, but when she violates your personal space you say nothing to her and just tell her boss and stiff her.  A touch passive aggressive.  

You handle it how you want, I'll handle it how I want.  I'm appalled that there is even an argument, or that some people feel that a waiter needs to be told that sitting down at the table with customers isn't appropriate. 

[Bench]

The whole point of a tip is that its optional.  If its not optional, they should make you agree to pay it and should be included in the price on the menu.  

While that's linguistically correct, it fails to describe what's actually going on.  A tip would be in addition to basic compensation.  In our system, a waiter's tip is their basic compensation. 

[HudsonHawk]

The whole point of a tip is that its optional.  If its not optional, they should make you agree to pay it and should be included in the price on the menu.  

Exactly.  It's ridiculous to think that the tip should be automatic, and I can't believe anyone who's ever made their living in the food service industry would have it any other way.  Waiters who are worth a damn should want to rid the profession of idiots who don't have manners, common sense and cleanliness, so they can be recognized for the hard work they do.

[Bench]

I've never felt obligated to tip the guy who changes my oil. 

But the guy who changes your oil's salary is built in to what you pay.  That's not the case with waiters.  With the oil guy a tip would actually be a "something extra for your troubles." 

[Lurch]

[Threadmerge] Did we ever decide the tipping protocol at Sonic? Their new credit card system doesn't provide the option, putting me in the odd position of stealing $.65 from my kid's backpack or asking for change for a dollar.  Fortunately, they're usually wearing hats when they deliver it, making the whole issue moo.[/treadmerge]

[Guinness]

But the guy who changes your oil's salary is built in to what you pay.  That's not the case with waiters. 

Why?  Not being contrary,  I never worked in food service and don't understand why people can't be paid a living wage.

[HudsonHawk]

But the guy who changes your oil's salary is built in to what you pay.

So then it's not an appropriate analogy in the least.

  That's not the case with waiters.  With the oil guy a tip would actually be a "something extra for your troubles." 

And the waiter's tip is something extra for providing at a minimum "acceptable" service.

[HudsonHawk]

Why?  Not being contrary,  I never worked in food service and don't understand why people can't be paid a living wage.

Because in general they make way more with tips than they would being paid a typical hourly rate.  If you think you can't make a living wage working in a restaurant, you've never worked in a restaurant. 

[Lurch]

Why?  Not being contrary,  I never worked in food service and don't understand why people can't be paid a living wage.

I think it's just a custom that congress made permanent by allowing the minimum wage exception.  As Limey pointed out, that made it less of a burden on the business not only in wages, but taxes paid on wages.  And, I'd be willing to bet 90+% of waitstaff don't pay the full income tax they should, so you have all three parties involved agreeing to leave it alone.

[Bench]

Why?  Not being contrary,  I never worked in food service and don't understand why people can't be paid a living wage.

It just is.  Waiters get paid a "salary" well below minimum wage and pretty much all of their income comes exclusively from tips.  

I read an article a while back that Per Se was going to go to a flat rate markup printed on the bill to cover the tip pool, and there was great debate about whether it was a good thing or no.  Many waiters felt it took the individuality out of the service industry (an opinion HH no doubt agrees with).  Others liked it because it improved collegiality amongst the waitstaff.  

[Bench]

Because in general they make way more with tips than they would being paid a typical hourly rate.  If you think you can't make a living wage working in a restaurant, you've never worked in a restaurant. 

A wage is not a tip.

[HudsonHawk]

A wage is not a tip.

Point?

[Bench]

Point?

All of the sudden we need one of those?

I figured Pete was talking about the below-minimum wage salary.  I doubt he wasn't aware that people can make a living as a waiter.

[HudsonHawk]

I doubt he wasn't aware that people can make a living as a waiter.

That's what it sounded like to me.

[Bench]

That's what it sounded like to me.

Pete and Repete go into a restaurant.  Pete walks out after the waitress sits down at their table.  Who was left?

[HudsonHawk]

Pete and Repete go into a restaurant.  Pete walks out after the waitress sits down at their table.  Who was left?

It doesn't matter because Ron Brand has her in the walk-in giving her the "nightly special".

[Ron Brand]

It doesn't matter because Ron Brand has her in the walk-in giving her the "nightly special".

How did you find me? Damn. Good hiding places are tough to find in a restaurant.

Let's just keep this to ourselves, ok? How'd you like a nice box of ribeyes?

[chuck]

It doesn't matter because Ron Brand has her in the walk-in giving her the "nightly special".

As long as she remains standing I'm OK with this.

[BatGirl]

As long as she remains standing I'm OK with this.

what if she's wearing a hat?

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

I read an article a while back that Per Se was going to go to a flat rate markup printed on the bill to cover the tip pool, and there was great debate about whether it was a good thing or no.  Many waiters felt it took the individuality out of the service industry (an opinion HH no doubt agrees with).  Others liked it because it improved collegiality amongst the waitstaff.  

So what was the markup? 25%? 27.5%? 30%? Seems like a system like that would breed mediocrity unless the reward was a bit better than average. Competency should be rewarded based on its merit, not some contrived notion of equality.

FWIW, when I dine out, I don't want automaton any more than new best friend.

[Bench]

So what was the markup? 25%? 27.5%? 30%? Seems like a system like that would breed mediocrity unless the reward was a bit better than average. Competency should be rewarded based on its merit, not some contrived notion of equality.

FWIW, when I dine out, I don't want automaton any more than new best friend.

That was definately one of the criticisms, but the answer to that was the plan was only at super high end places where only experienced professional waiters would be employed anyway.  The thinking was that "we're all so good that let's just do our jobs and not worry about jockeying for tables."

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

That was definately one of the criticisms, but the answer to that was the plan was only at super high end places where only experienced professional waiters would be employed anyway.  The thinking was that "we're all so good that let's just do our jobs and not worry about jockeying for tables."

I could see how that would work at finer dinning establishments. Provided it was based on sales generated per table--as a commission, and not some "everybody gets the same amount" pool.

[homer]

You handle it how you want, I'll handle it how I want.  I'm appalled that there is even an argument, or that some people feel that a waiter needs to be told that sitting down at the table with customers isn't appropriate. 

Why didn't you tell her?

[Limey]

Why?  Not being contrary,  I never worked in food service and don't understand why people can't be paid a living wage.

It's the US pricing protocol.  Everything is listed at the stripped-down price, but for it to work for you, there are a number of other items required, and they're extra.

Also, when it comes to restaurants, having the wait staff all being part-time and paid only a tiny hourly rate takes a huge admin/tax burden off the business.  Essentially, wait staff are independent contractors.

[Limey]

That was definately one of the criticisms, but the answer to that was the plan was only at super high end places where only experienced professional waiters would be employed anyway.  The thinking was that "we're all so good that let's just do our jobs and not worry about jockeying for tables."

The waiters at The Palm get health insurance and a retirement plan.  That is a very rare exception, I suspect.

[geezerdonk]

We eat at 6 now.

I can't wait for you to have kids so we can make fun of you when you realize that taking a 6 year old to dinner past their natural bedtime means you might as well have just stayed home.   I.  Can't.  Wait.

Give him a martini or two - he'll be fine with waiting until 8:00.

[Alkie]

So what was the markup? 25%? 27.5%? 30%? Seems like a system like that would breed mediocrity unless the reward was a bit better than average. Competency should be rewarded based on its merit, not some contrived notion of equality.

FWIW, when I dine out, I don't want automaton any more than new best friend.

We just ate there and the markup was 20%, which they make clear before you show up.   It's just like in parts of Europe, where they roll it into the price; it's not "added on" later.

Frankly, I was worried the service would suffer, but it was easily the 2nd or 3rd best service we've had in NYC (aside from the sommelier asking me what kind of wine I liked).   Honestly, I usually tip more than 20% at the high end places, so they just screwed themselves.   

[Guinness]

All of the sudden we need one of those?

I figured Pete was talking about the below-minimum wage salary.  I doubt he wasn't aware that people can make a living as a waiter.

That is what I meant.  I know people make a living as a waiter, I was just wondering why their wages are structured the way they are, and that's been answered.   Tipping wasn't generally the norm in the UK, and I don't think service suffered for it.  Well, maybe in some places...

[HudsonHawk]

Why didn't you tell her?

Because it needs to come from her manager.

[rifraft]

We just ate there and the markup was 20%, which they make clear before you show up.   It's just like in parts of Europe, where they roll it into the price; it's not "added on" later.

Frankly, I was worried the service would suffer, but it was easily the 2nd or 3rd best service we've had in NYC (aside from the sommelier asking me what kind of wine I liked).   Honestly, I usually tip more than 20% at the high end places, so they just screwed themselves.   

baller, wow, just so everyone knows, price fixe meal at $275 per person....

you have lost touch with the everyman, you east coast liberal fascist elitist.

[HudsonHawk]

We just ate there and the markup was 20%, which they make clear before you show up.   It's just like in parts of Europe, where they roll it into the price; it's not "added on" later.

Frankly, I was worried the service would suffer, but it was easily the 2nd or 3rd best service we've had in NYC (aside from the sommelier asking me what kind of wine I liked).   Honestly, I usually tip more than 20% at the high end places, so they just screwed themselves.   

They have some sort of wait staff markup in San Francisco too.  The service suffers greatly because of it.

[T. J.]

I read a study on tipping psychology a few years ago, and just tried (unsuccessfully) to find it.  It had to do with the server kneeling at your table to make better eye contact, touching the people at the table, signing the check with "Thanks..." and a little heart, that sort of thing, all of which were supposed to increase tips.  I couldn't remember if sitting at the table was one of them, but I wouldn't be shocked.  I'm guessing the manager is encouraging this behavior.

I did find this paper which does discuss servers sitting with the customers, but only at tables with white people!  You were racially targeted, HH.

[BizidyDizidy]

I read a study on tipping psychology a few years ago, and just tried (unsuccessfully) to find it.  It had to do with the server kneeling at your table to make better eye contact, touching the people at the table, signing the check with "Thanks..." and a little heart, that sort of thing, all of which were supposed to increase tips.  I couldn't remember if sitting at the table was one of them, but I wouldn't be shocked.  I'm guessing the manager is encouraging this behavior.

I did find this paper which does discuss servers sitting with the customers, but only at tables with white people!  You were racially targeted, HH.

http://tippingresearch.com/uploads/Seven_ways.pdf

And the revisit: http://tippingresearch.com/uploads/CQ_Employee_retention_11_08.pdf

[BizidyDizidy]

http://tippingresearch.com/uploads/Seven_ways.pdf

And the revisit: http://tippingresearch.com/uploads/CQ_Employee_retention_11_08.pdf

A quote from the first one:

"Squatting down next to a table is too informal to do in fine dining restaurants, but the managers of casual dining establishments may want to encourage their servers to squat down next to their tables. There is some evidence that the management of Outback Steakhouses is already doing this. Outback servers frequently squat next to their tables and sometimes even pull-out a chair to sit at the table. Of course, servers need to exercise some judgment about whether or not a given table will welcome such informality. However, the research described above suggests that these actions are generally welcome and will result in higher incomes for those servers willing to engage in them."

[Ron Brand]

Wow. If you ever needed a reason to take Outback off of your list...

Sayonara, Blooming Onion.

[sporadic]

Wow. If you ever needed a reason to take Outback off of your list...

Sayonara, Blooming Onion.

nah, just sit at the bar

[BizidyDizidy]

Servers seem happy there:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2204714244&v=wall

[Ty in Tampa]

nah, just sit at the bar

If we go to any kind of chain establishment, that's what we do.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Wow. If you ever needed a reason to take Outback off of your list...

Sayonara, Blooming Onion.

nah, just sit at the bar

Or take your dick out and pee a circle around the table and on any spare seats.

[sporadic]

If we go to any kind of chain establishment, that's what we do.

Hell yes.  Never a wait, good spot for watching TV and always close to your next beer.  Just like home...

[Ron Brand]

Or take your dick out and pee a circle around the table and on any spare seats.

I like your style. Does that affect the tip I'm expected to leave?

[HudsonHawk]

Hell yes.  Never a wait, good spot for watching TV and always close to your next beer.  Just like home...

I cannot stand watching TV in a restaurant.  If I'm at a bar and just drinking, it's not so bad.  But the last thing I want when trying to enjoy a meal out is the blare of the TV, or 30 fans whooping and hollering.

[Lurch]

I cannot stand watching TV in a restaurant.  If I'm at a bar and just drinking, it's not so bad.  But the last thing I want when trying to enjoy a meal out is the blare of the TV, or 30 fans whooping and hollering.

Stunned.

[sporadic]

I cannot stand watching TV in a restaurant.  If I'm at a bar and just drinking, it's not so bad.  But the last thing I want when trying to enjoy a meal out is the blare of the TV, or 30 fans whooping and hollering.

Never really bothered me.  I would rather sit at the bar and watch TV rather than miss whatever sporting event is on altogether.  Then again, we go out to eat about once a month - if that.  Eating out is quite the adventure with a 5, 8 and 10 year old in tow.  That, and I like to cook...don't like paying for things I can cook better.

[HudsonHawk]

Never really bothered me.  I would rather sit at the bar and watch TV rather than miss whatever sporting event is on altogether.  Then again, we go out to eat about once a month - if that.  Eating out is quite the adventure with a 5, 8 and 10 year old in tow.  That, and I like to cook...don't like paying for things I can cook better.

If there's a sporting event on TV that I just can't miss, I'll stay home and watch it.  If I'm going out to a restaurant, it's to eat.

[Limey]

We just ate there and the markup was 20%, which they make clear before you show up.   It's just like in parts of Europe, where they roll it into the price; it's not "added on" later.

Frankly, I was worried the service would suffer, but it was easily the 2nd or 3rd best service we've had in NYC (aside from the sommelier asking me what kind of wine I liked).   Honestly, I usually tip more than 20% at the high end places, so they just screwed themselves.   

France has a Federally mandated "tip".  Everywhere you go, there's a 17.5% tip built into the bill.  This makes life easy, because your bill is WYSIWYG (unless they try and stiff you Americans for a tip on top), but it also means that service is as good or (more usually) as bad as it is, with no leverage for the customer.

[Limey]

Because it needs to come from her manager.

No it doesn't.  As far as you know, other customers love that the waiter/ess sits down to take the order, because it's more personal and/or easier to look down her top.

BTW, at Griff's tonight, the owners are likely to sit at the table with us.  Hope that's ok.  They typically bring shots.

[Limey]

I read a study on tipping psychology a few years ago, and just tried (unsuccessfully) to find it.  It had to do with the server kneeling at your table to make better eye contact, touching the people at the table, signing the check with "Thanks..." and a little heart, that sort of thing, all of which were supposed to increase tips.  I couldn't remember if sitting at the table was one of them, but I wouldn't be shocked.  I'm guessing the manager is encouraging this behavior.

I did find this paper which does discuss servers sitting with the customers, but only at tables with white people!  You were racially targeted, HH.

You know what's guaranteed to increase tips?  This.

[Limey]

Wow. If you ever needed a reason to take Outback off of your list...

Sayonara, Blooming Onion.

Also, a bloomin' onion is about 3 million calories.

[ybbodeus]

Servers seem happy there:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2204714244&v=wall

Do they encourage their associates to get busy in terms of their "flair"?

[Limey]

If there's a sporting event on TV that I just can't miss, I'll stay home and watch it.  If I'm going out to a restaurant, it's to eat.

[Snobby Englishman] Restaurants should not have a TV within sight of the dining room, but can opt to have one in the bar.  Bars that serve food can, and should, have TVs everywhere.  If you want to avoid TVs, choose the former over the latter.  If the restaurant has TVs in the dining area, go somewhere else next time.  [/Snobby Englishman]

[Lurch]

Also, a bloomin' onion is about 3 million calories.

I discovered this only after finishing one off once on a business trip.  By myself.  As an appitizer.  It fucked my calorie spreadsheet for a week.

[HudsonHawk]

No it doesn't.  

I couldn't disagree more.

BTW, at Griff's tonight, the owners are likely to sit at the table with us.  Hope that's ok.  They typically bring shots.

The owners, whom you know personally, sitting at a bar with you is not in the same universe as your unknown food server sitting down at your dinner table with you.  Again...apples and chainsaws.

[Limey]

I couldn't disagree more.

If it's management policy, and the waiter says that he/she is supposed to sit with you whenever possible, then that's not an eatery for you.  It's also not the waiter's fault, so it's a little mean to stiff 'em on the tip.

The owners, whom you know personally, sitting at a bar with you is not in the same universe as your unknown food server sitting down at your dinner table with you.  Again...apples and chainsaws.

I had my hand raised while typing this bit.

[HudsonHawk]

If it's management policy, and the waiter says that he/she is supposed to sit with you whenever possible, then that's not an eatery for you.

It's not the management policy.  Management knows better.  

 It's also not the waiter's fault, so it's a little mean to stiff 'em on the tip.

Huh?  It's entirely the waitress's fault.  No one else's.  Not even a little.  Under no circumstances, in no known reality, not even an alternate one, is it appropriate for a wait person to sit down at the table with the guests.  Not in a fine dining restaurant, not in a casual restaurant, not in a greazy burger joint.  It's just highly and mindbogglingly offensive.  If the waitstaff are unaware of the basic, fundemental relationship between the guest and the server, they need a quick lesson.  I'm proud of myself for giving it to her.

[sporadic]

It's not the management policy.  Management knows better.  

Huh?  It's entirely the waitress's fault.  No one else's.  Not even a little.  Under no circumstances, in no known reality, not even an alternate one, is it appropriate for a wait person to sit down at the table with the guests.  Not in a fine dining restaurant, not in a casual restaurant, not in a greazy burger joint.  It's just highly and mindbogglingly offensive.  If the waitstaff are unaware of the basic, fundemental relationship between the guest and the server, they need a quick lesson.  I'm proud of myself for giving it to her.

The manager threw her under the bus.  If it was frowned upon it would not be done, as you can see damn near every table from damn near any spot in most Outback's (so he chances of a member of a waitstaff being caught doing this would be pretty high).  Doubt he even said anything mean to her about it, other than don't do it again to that guy (pointing to you as you are walking to your car).  Or, your server was an idiot.

[Ty in Tampa]

It's not the management policy.  Management knows better. 

Huh?  It's entirely the waitress's fault.  No one else's.  Not even a little.  Under no circumstances, in no known reality, not even an alternate one, is it appropriate for a wait person to sit down at the table with the guests.  Not in a fine dining restaurant, not in a casual restaurant, not in a greazy burger joint.  It's just highly and mindbogglingly offensive.  If the waitstaff are unaware of the basic, fundemental relationship between the guest and the server, they need a quick lesson.  I'm proud of myself for giving it to her.

I'm pretty sure you didn't give her a lesson. I'm pretty sure, to her, you're just an asshole.

[HudsonHawk]

I'm pretty sure you didn't give her a lesson. I'm pretty sure, to her, you're just an asshole.

All I can do is lead her to the promised land, I can't make her drink from the fountain of knowledge.

[Limey]

It's not the management policy.  Management knows better.  

Huh?  It's entirely the waitress's fault.  No one else's.  Not even a little.  Under no circumstances, in no known reality, not even an alternate one, is it appropriate for a wait person to sit down at the table with the guests.  Not in a fine dining restaurant, not in a casual restaurant, not in a greazy burger joint.  It's just highly and mindbogglingly offensive.  If the waitstaff are unaware of the basic, fundemental relationship between the guest and the server, they need a quick lesson.  I'm proud of myself for giving it to her.

Did you not see TJ's link above?  It's believed that sitting down will get you - Whitey - to leave a bigger tip.  I don't know if your server was aware of this phenomenon, but I'd be gobsmacked if a major chain like Outback Steakhouse didn't include it in part of their server training program.

Also, what the study shows is that you are an unusual case.  That doesn't make you wrong - you're the customer so that's impossible - but it explains the server's SOP.  The server is the face of the restaurant, so that's the person to whom you explain your preference for them not to sit down.  The manager's weasling at the end was to avoid comping you any of your meal.

[T. J.]

And apparently it has been outback's policy since 1995, at least.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3190/is_n13_v29/ai_16751678/pg_2/

From the article: 
In a departure from the service style of most restaurant chains, Outback encourages servers to sit down at the table or booth with guests while they are taking an order. Sullivan points out that servers "must be a good judge of customers" to know when such an informal approach will make a favorable impression.

[EasTexAstro]

Kim, at the Outback in Humble, was extremely professional. No sitting, small smile, not chatty, very professional. She got a tip from my wife, the accountant, when she paid the bill. I left a few extra dollars when we left because I was so impressed.

The linked pdf files said something about getting a good reading on your customers to see how they feel about interaction. Maybe that "come hither" look invited her to join you for the festivities, or she is an idiot. The pdf suggested touching your customers, too. I would have to say something or walk out if that happened to me, so I guess we all have our idiosyncrasies.

[chuck]

So, let's recap: HH enters an establishment where conduct he despises is not only permitted but actively taught and encouraged. Said conduct is manifested, HH becomes angry and punishes someone for doing precisely what they have been instructed to do.

Do I have that right?

[austro]

The pdf suggested touching your customers, too. I would have to say something or walk out if that happened to me, so I guess we all have our idiosyncrasies.

This must be the point where Limey regales us with tales of pub waitresses rogering the customers. (If women can roger men; something tells me that verb only works in one direction.)

[Limey]

This must be the point where Limey regales us with tales of pub waitresses rogering the customers. (If women can roger men; something tells me that verb only works in one direction.)

Touching of Limey by (hot) waitresses is positively encouraged in any type of establishment.  It automatically makes the tip bigger...

[ybbodeus]

Stop.

[loganck]

 It's just highly and mindbogglingly offensive.  

This is hilarious.  The hat stuff a few weeks back was great too.  

edit:  to remove lame old guy joke.  You being an old guy isn't the problem.  You're crazy if you think you taught her any kind of lesson.

[HudsonHawk]

Did you not see TJ's link above?  It's believed that sitting down will get you - Whitey - to leave a bigger tip. 

If she thinks it will, she needs to be told unequivocally that it will in fact have the opposite effect.

The manager's weasling at the end was to avoid comping you any of your meal.

The manager offered to comp my meal, and I declined. There was nothing wrong with the meal, it was the service I wasn't going to pay for.

[HudsonHawk]

So, let's recap: HH enters an establishment where conduct he despises is not only permitted but actively taught and encouraged. Said conduct is manifested, HH becomes angry and punishes someone for doing precisely what they have been instructed to do.

Do I have that right?

Not exactly. HH has never once in his life, not even in his previous life as a waiter ever heard of, let alone seen a restaurant tolerate such behavior on the part of its waitstaff.

[HudsonHawk]

This is hilarious.  The hat stuff a few weeks back was great too.  

edit:  to remove lame old guy joke.  You being an old guy isn't the problem.  You're crazy if you think you taught her any kind of lesson.

Whether or not she learned anything is up to her. If she didn't , she's stupid.

[MusicMan]

Whether or not she learned anything is up to her. If she didn't , she's stupid.

Yes, the method of leaving a confusing signal (no tip) and depending on someone else to deliver the message unequivocally means she is stupid for not learning your lesson.

[HudsonHawk]

Yes, the method of leaving a confusing signal (no tip) and depending on someone else to deliver the message unequivocally means she is stupid for not learning your lesson.

Not getting a tip is not confusing at all to a waiter. They know very well that it means the customer was not pleased with the service.

[MusicMan]

Not getting a tip is not confusing at all to a waiter. They know very well that it means the customer was not pleased with the service.

I would say many of them feel that the customer was simply cheap.

I was always taught that a minimal tip (<5%) was a much clearer signal that the service was unacceptable.

[Alkie]

Not getting a tip is not confusing at all to a waiter. They know very well that it means the customer was not pleased with the service.

...or is a ridiculous asshole with an axe to grind who didn't get enough urine in his bisque (but will next time).

Again, I don't want a waitress sitting at my table either, which I solve by not eating at the sort of place where it's taught -- not just tolerated -- taught.   

Men buy more drinks, order larger entrees, and are more likely to buy dessert if the waitress sits down and breaks that barrier between "waitress" and "friend."   This isn't new nor is it news.   I'm not sure why you, of all people, are pretending to not be fully aware of this.  You're not teaching anyone a lesson because the other 4 tables she was waiting at the same time likely bought more food because she sits down with them and pretends to be their pal.

Don't like it?   Stop eating at these places.   Trust me when I say, all the stiffing in the world isn't going to change what is a proven business practice at these joints.   People that eat at Outback and Chili's are, generally speaking, the sort of people who are likely to actually think, even for a second that this breaking of the market norm into friend norm means you can TRUST this person.  Hey, I SHOULD get the 16 oz steak and the Flaming Kangaroo Sundae!   She's right!   

You DON'T think that way.   You know why?   Because you're not the sort of person who should be eating at these places.   You know better.   That's why I personally don't get why you keep frequenting these places that you clearly hate, and for all the right reasons.

[chuck]

Don't like it?   Stop eating at these places.   Trust me when I say, all the stiffing in the world isn't going to change what is a proven business practice at these joints.   People that eat at Outback and Chili's are, generally speaking, the sort of people who are likely to actually think, even for a second that this breaking of the market norm into friend norm means you can TRUST this person.  Hey, I SHOULD get the 16 oz steak and the Flaming Kangaroo Sundae!   She's right!

Ridiculous. Next thing I know you're going to be telling me that the nice girl who shook her chest in my face and pounced around on my lap doesn't actually LIKE me. She said she did.

[HudsonHawk]

...or is a ridiculous asshole with an axe to grind who didn't get enough urine in his bisque (but will next time).

I don't have an axe to grind, and I don't find asking the waiter to simply take my order and bring my food without sitting down next to me as I'm eating to be particularly onerous.

Again, I don't want a waitress sitting at my table either, which I solve by not eating at the sort of place where it's taught -- not just tolerated -- taught.  

Again...since when is this type of shit tolerated, let alone taught?  When did the world go to hell in a handbasket.  I have never in my life, prior to about 3 months ago, ever heard of such a thing, let alone witnessed it.

Because you're not the sort of person who should be eating at these places.   You know better.   That's why I personally don't get why you keep frequenting these places that you clearly hate, and for all the right reasons.

I don't hate them.  I like eating there in certain situations.  And again...this is a recent phenomenon.  Yeah, it may be that I'm just an asshole because I don't want the waiter sitting down next to me, or picking the fries off my plate, or any number of other offensive things.  But I certainly never got the memo that treating guests in your restaurant with a little respect suddenly went out of vogue.

[Alkie]

I don't have an axe to grind, and I don't find asking the waiter to simply take my order and bring my food without sitting down next to me as I'm eating to be particularly onerous.

Sorry, that made it sound like I was saying that.    I wasn't.  I was putting words in the mind of the 17 year old Permianian waitress.

Again...since when is this type of shit tolerated, let alone taught?  When did the world go to hell in a handbasket.  I have never in my life, prior to about 3 months ago, ever heard of such a thing, let alone witnessed it.

I don't believe that.   They've been doing this for at least 15 years at the Casual Dining places in America.   I'm not joking.  They started doing it quite intentionally after studies pretty well proved that people, mostly men, are much more likely to purchase more food, even more courses, when they "trust" the salesperson (waitperson) who is upselling them.   Easiest way to do that is to cross over from business norms to friend norms.   They found that if the waiter sat down with you, it broke that barrier.   Again, I'm not saying YOU should see it that way.   I can't say this enough:  I TOTALLY, 100% AGREE WITH YOU.   I don't WANT to trust and befriend the waiter.   

I don't hate them.  I like eating there in certain situations.  And again...this is a recent phenomenon.  Yeah, it may be that I'm just an asshole because I don't want the waiter sitting down next to me, or picking the fries off my plate, or any number of other offensive things.  But I certainly never got the memo that treating guests in your restaurant with a little respect suddenly went out of vogue.

It didn't.   It just did at gimmick restaurants like Applebee's and Outback where the food is absolutely, without question, never the reason that place is in the foodin' business.   They know they can make something salty, covered in booze-sauce, for the same price you paid for it 2-towns-over and you'll never leave thinking "well, shit, I wasn't expecting THAT on the menu!"   It's just slightly-less-fast food.   They have no interest in selling you "good food" made by people who take pride in their work.   

[Bench]

I think the Iron Sheik encourages waitresses to sit down but i haven't the foggiest idea where he comes down on hats. 

[Limey]

I think the Iron Sheik encourages waitresses to sit down but i haven't the foggiest idea where he comes down on hats.  

Presumably they are required to cover the whole face.

[Ron Brand]

This conjures up some comforting imagery:

I watch the football or the baseball today? Which game I watch? Which beer I drink?

I love the Sheik's appearances on Howard Stern.

[Bench]

I loved his Rosh Hashanah well-wishes:

hello all my intelligent jewish friends. happy rosh hashanah. for the jew if i see the Mel gibson i beat the fuck out of him fuck his ass

[Ron Brand]

I gotta start following the Sheik:

I am the gold medal. Not that hollywood blonde faggot hulk hogan