Author Topic: Lost finale (non-spoiler) (Read 5636 times)

Bench · « **on:** May 12, 2009, 09:06:23 pm »

You got to figure some blood is going to be shed, so who you do you think will die?

I can't imagine a Season 6 without Jack, as much as I root for his demise every episode. But Sayid is basically a walking corpse spiritually at this point, and following Jack's worst decision in a lifetime of horrible decisions doesn't bode well for him.

I figure Juliet is on the chopping block as well, which would put Sawyer in a very interesting emotional place next season regarding Jack and really any of the folks who came back.

Oh, and Phil? Yeah, I'm really going to enjoy watching your smug sorry ass die in a very painful way.

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #1 on:** May 13, 2009, 09:11:33 am »

Quote from: Bench on May 12, 2009, 09:06:23 pm

You got to figure some blood is going to be shed, so who you do you think will die?

I can't imagine a Season 6 without Jack, as much as I root for his demise every episode. But Sayid is basically a walking corpse spiritually at this point, and following Jack's worst decision in a lifetime of horrible decisions doesn't bode well for him.

I figure Juliet is on the chopping block as well, which would put Sawyer in a very interesting emotional place next season regarding Jack and really any of the folks who came back.

Oh, and Phil? Yeah, I'm really going to enjoy watching your smug sorry ass die in a very painful way.

I can't possibly imagine them killing off any of the orginial Oceanic survivors at this point. And, the constant allusions to "undoing the past" have to make you feel that the series will end with them getting on Flight 815 in Sydney and landing in Los Angeles as scheduled, unware of anything that happened in between. But I agree, if they were to kill off Jack (and Kate and Juliette for that matter) I wouldn't bat an eyelash. I also have the feeling that my questions will not be answered and I will be horribly disappointed with the series ending. Not nearly as disappointed, furious really, as that pathetic ending to The Sopranos, but disappointed nonetheless.

ETA: Oh yeah, and I don't think Jack's current mission is a horrible decision, simply because he's not the one to think of it. Faraday is fuckin spot on, so I'd do what he says, though it wouldn't surprise me to see Sawyer dying in the process. I've said before that the Jack/Kate/Sawyer thing is basically straight out of a Tale of Two Cities, and that Sawyer will have to die redeeming himself a la Sidney Carton.

Andyzipp · « **Reply #2 on:** May 13, 2009, 09:39:59 am »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on May 13, 2009, 09:11:33 am

I can't possibly imagine them killing off any of the orginial Oceanic survivors at this point. And, the constant allusions to "undoing the past" have to make you feel that the series will end with them getting on Flight 815 in Sydney and landing in Los Angeles as scheduled, unware of anything that happened in between. But I agree, if they were to kill off Jack (and Kate and Juliette for that matter) I wouldn't bat an eyelash. I also have the feeling that my questions will not be answered and I will be horribly disappointed with the series ending. Not nearly as disappointed, furious really, as that pathetic ending to The Sopranos, but disappointed nonetheless.

ETA: Oh yeah, and I don't think Jack's current mission is a horrible decision, simply because he's not the one to think of it. Faraday is fuckin spot on, so I'd do what he says, though it wouldn't surprise me to see Sawyer dying in the process. I've said before that the Jack/Kate/Sawyer thing is basically straight out of a Tale of Two Cities, and that Sawyer will have to die redeeming himself a la Sidney Carton.

But I wonder if Faraday has been manipulated to this point by his mother (and indirectly by his father) to make the good decision. Jack will not die, although even if he did, he'd die stupidly, and with a lot of angst.

Andyzipp · « **Reply #3 on:** May 13, 2009, 09:57:41 am »

Also, I expect the time disparity between Locke/Sun/Ben and Jack/Sawyer/Kate/Hugo/Sayid/Jin/etc. to be resolved tonight one way or the other.

All to get ready for "the war".

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #4 on:** May 13, 2009, 10:09:57 am »

Quote from: Andyzipp on May 13, 2009, 09:39:59 am

But I wonder if Faraday has been manipulated to this point by his mother (and indirectly by his father) to make the good decision. Jack will not die, although even if he did, he'd die stupidly, and with a lot of angst.

There will be tremendous amounts of overacting, even in death.

Bench · « **Reply #5 on:** May 13, 2009, 10:20:30 am »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on May 13, 2009, 09:11:33 am

ETA: Oh yeah, and I don't think Jack's current mission is a horrible decision, simply because he's not the one to think of it. Faraday is fuckin spot on, so I'd do what he says, though it wouldn't surprise me to see Sawyer dying in the process. I've said before that the Jack/Kate/Sawyer thing is basically straight out of a Tale of Two Cities, and that Sawyer will have to die redeeming himself a la Sidney Carton.

You have to wonder if what Faraday is saying is true. He came back to the island, generally ran around like a wild man telling everybody he could whatever he could think of to freak them out until he got killed. I'm sure he wants Jack to detonate the bomb, but I'm not convinced it's for the reasons Jack believes.

Also, I think Sawyer has reached redemption. He's gone from a drifting selfish con-man to a de facto husband, responsible, heroic leader. Jack's self-importance has always lead him to avoid redemption, as highlighted by his desire to just hit the reset button on the last three years to get to where none of this ever happened. Redemption requires self-awareness, sacrifice, and moving forward. Jack just wants to stick his head in the sand.

ETA: I mean Faraday wants Jack to *try* to detonate the bomb. It would be odd if Faraday actually wanted the very bomb he said would destroy the island back in the '50's to destroy it in the 70's, which, assuming Ellie is pregnant with him then, would mean that he would never be born (or Penny, for that matter).

WakePhil · « **Reply #6 on:** May 13, 2009, 10:49:05 am »

Quote from: Bench on May 12, 2009, 09:06:23 pm

Oh, and Phil? Yeah, I'm really going to enjoy watching your smug sorry ass die in a very painful way.

dude? /roadrunner

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #7 on:** May 13, 2009, 10:58:48 am »

Quote from: Bench on May 13, 2009, 10:20:30 am

You have to wonder if what Faraday is saying is true. He came back to the island, generally ran around like a wild man telling everybody he could whatever he could think of to freak them out until he got killed. I'm sure he wants Jack to detonate the bomb, but I'm not convinced it's for the reasons Jack believes.

I think Faraday is pure. That's just my gut.

Quote

Also, I think Sawyer has reached redemption. He's gone from a drifting selfish con-man to a de facto husband, responsible, heroic leader. Jack's self-importance has always lead him to avoid redemption, as highlighted by his desire to just hit the reset button on the last three years to get to where none of this ever happened. Redemption requires self-awareness, sacrifice, and moving forward. Jack just wants to stick his head in the sand.

True redemption requires the ultimate sacrifice, not just playing house with a hot doctor lady.

Quote

ETA: I mean Faraday wants Jack to *try* to detonate the bomb. It would be odd if Faraday actually wanted the very bomb he said would destroy the island back in the '50's to destroy it in the 70's, which, assuming Ellie is pregnant with him then, would mean that he would never be born (or Penny, for that matter).

I think he means in a controlled sort of way, as in the bomb and the electromagnetic energy source will simply cancel each other out, not destroy the island. And Penny is already born in 1977. Ellie is pregnant with Faraday by Widmore, who is already married with a child (Penny).

Bench · « **Reply #8 on:** May 13, 2009, 11:02:18 am »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on May 13, 2009, 10:58:48 am

I think he means in a controlled sort of way, as in the bomb and the electromagnetic energy source will simply cancel each other out, not destroy the island.

And lord knows Jack's certainly capable of pulling that off. I hope the instructions in Faraday's journal are pretty damn clear.

Quote from: HudsonHawk on May 13, 2009, 10:58:48 am

And Penny is already born in 1977. Ellie is pregnant with Faraday by Widmore, who is already married with a child (Penny).

Where do you get that Penny is already born? I can't remember anything to suggest that.

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #9 on:** May 13, 2009, 11:09:35 am »

Quote from: Bench on May 13, 2009, 11:02:18 am

And lord knows Jack's certainly capable of pulling that off. I hope the instructions in Faraday's journal are pretty damn clear.

Where do you get that Penny is already born? I can't remember anything to suggest that.

She appears to be about 40 years old when she met Desmond in 1994, though I'll assume (for the sake of the show's timeline and Parental Guidance rating) only that she was at least 18.

WakePhil · « **Reply #10 on:** May 13, 2009, 11:22:50 am »

Now that Miles has reconnected with his father and is on his way to resolving his daddy issues, I think he should be on the short list for potential deaths.

Bench · « **Reply #11 on:** May 13, 2009, 11:37:34 am »

Quote from: WakePhil on May 13, 2009, 11:22:50 am

Now that Miles has reconnected with his father and is on his way to resolving his daddy issues, I think he should be on the short list for potential deaths.

Yeah. The worst thing you can do for your survival on this show is to come to terms with your inner turmoil.

(Or get a DWI while filming)

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #12 on:** May 13, 2009, 12:22:43 pm »

One of the other things I'm curious about is the whole Shephard family connection. The writers certainly want you to believe that Jack is Jacob's great grandson and that Widmore Jacob's brother. And also that Ben is the son of Jacob, and subsequently Widmore's nephew. But that also makes Ben Jack's great uncle and who knows WTF it means for Roger Linus. And what does that mean for Ray, Christian's father? He was on the island in 1954, but doing what..with whom? These are the connections I'm certain will never be answered in the remaing 18 or so episodes, and why it chaps my ass that they spend so much film on the Jack/Kate/Sawyer/Juliette love quadrangle.

Bench · « **Reply #13 on:** May 13, 2009, 12:34:42 pm »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on May 13, 2009, 12:22:43 pm

One of the other things I'm curious about is the whole Shephard family connection. The writers certainly want you to believe that Jack is Jacob's great grandson and that Widmore Jacob's brother. And also that Ben is the son of Jacob, and subsequently Widmore's nephew. But that also makes Ben Jack's great uncle and who knows WTF it means for Roger Linus. And what does that mean for Ray, Christian's father? He was on the island in 1954, but doing what..with whom? These are the connections I'm certain will never be answered in the remaing 18 or so episodes, and why it chaps my ass that they spend so much film on the Jack/Kate/Sawyer/Juliette love quadrangle.

I feel like we're not watching the same show.

I guess you're making the leap that because Christian was in Jacob's cabin (and appears to speak on behalf of the island), they are father and son, which I don't agree with but kind of see how you get there. But what in the world makes you think that Ben is the son of Jacob or that Widmore is Jacob's brother?

And why do you think Ray was on the island in 1954?

ETA: I have to say, I'm beginning to understand why you are so frustrated with this show.

Andyzipp · « **Reply #14 on:** May 13, 2009, 12:43:32 pm »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on May 13, 2009, 12:22:43 pm

One of the other things I'm curious about is the whole Shephard family connection. The writers certainly want you to believe that Jack is Jacob's great grandson and that Widmore Jacob's brother. And also that Ben is the son of Jacob, and subsequently Widmore's nephew. But that also makes Ben Jack's great uncle and who knows WTF it means for Roger Linus. And what does that mean for Ray, Christian's father? He was on the island in 1954, but doing what..with whom? These are the connections I'm certain will never be answered in the remaing 18 or so episodes, and why it chaps my ass that they spend so much film on the Jack/Kate/Sawyer/Juliette love quadrangle.

Why do you think Ben is Jacob's son?

So you think that Jacob begat Ray who begat Christian (and Ben) who begat Jack?

With all due respect, where are you getting this from?

MusicMan · « **Reply #15 on:** May 13, 2009, 12:48:15 pm »

I can't wait to watch all of this on DVD. About the same time I catch up on all of Battlestar Galactica and Friday Night Lights. Shit, this could take a while.

Señor Stan · « **Reply #16 on:** May 13, 2009, 01:39:52 pm »

Quote from: MusicMan on May 13, 2009, 12:48:15 pm

I can't wait to watch all of this on DVD. About the same time I catch up on all of Battlestar Galactica and Friday Night Lights. Shit, this could take a while.

I didn't start watching Lost until last November. My wife and I ended up watching all the DVD box sets up before the new season started.

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #17 on:** May 13, 2009, 01:56:46 pm »

Quote from: Andyzipp on May 13, 2009, 12:43:32 pm

Why do you think Ben is Jacob's son?

So you think that Jacob begat Ray who begat Christian (and Ben) who begat Jack?

With all due respect, where are you getting this from?

Just the Biblical allusions. Aaron being the great great grandson of Jacob, Jacob's son being Benjamin, the tribal leader, who's mother died during birth, the two brothers fighting over their "inheiretance" that one swindled from the other...the show is littered with references to the Biblical the story of Jacob. I may be totally off about the plan for the story plot, but the references are clear. The characters, their names, their respective relationships are not simply made up. I think it's one of the things that makes the show have so much potential.

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #18 on:** May 13, 2009, 01:58:00 pm »

Quote from: Bench on May 13, 2009, 12:34:42 pm

And why do you think Ray was on the island in 1954?

ETA: I have to say, I'm beginning to understand why you are so frustrated with this show.

It's not explicity said that Ray was on *the* island, only that he was on *an* island in 1954. I the the producers are leading us to that conclusion.

Señor Stan · « **Reply #19 on:** May 14, 2009, 09:24:05 am »

Quote from: Bench on May 12, 2009, 09:06:23 pm

Oh, and Phil? Yeah, I'm really going to enjoy watching your smug sorry ass die in a very painful way.

Check.

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #20 on:** May 14, 2009, 10:29:53 am »

Ummmm...I thought this was the NON SPOILER THREAD???

Holly · « **Reply #21 on:** May 14, 2009, 10:33:58 am »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on May 14, 2009, 10:29:53 am

Ummmm...I thought this was the NON SPOILER THREAD???

You know what, you're right. I'll delete/edit my responses. Kinda figured since the ep has aired already, that it's open season for discussing, but yeah... that belongs in another thread. Sorry.

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #22 on:** May 14, 2009, 10:35:57 am »

Quote from: Holly on May 14, 2009, 10:33:58 am

You know what, you're right. I'll delete/edit my responses. Kinda figured since the ep has aired already, that it's open season for discussing, but yeah... that belongs in another thread. Sorry.

It's just that I didn't see last night's. I figured Phil would die, but don't want to know any more until at least later tonight.

Señor Stan · « **Reply #23 on:** May 14, 2009, 10:36:13 am »

Quote from: Holly on May 14, 2009, 10:33:58 am

You know what, you're right. I'll delete/edit my responses. Kinda figured since the ep has aired already, that it's open season for discussing, but yeah... that belongs in another thread. Sorry.

You shouldn't have edited your responses..."Whatever Happened, Happened."

Holly · « **Reply #24 on:** May 14, 2009, 10:39:33 am »

Quote from: Señor Stan on May 14, 2009, 10:36:13 am

You shouldn't have edited your responses..."Whatever Happened, Happened."

Didn't edit, I unskipped the record... grabbed a rock and banged on something hard.

Bench · « **Reply #25 on:** May 14, 2009, 10:41:18 am »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on May 14, 2009, 10:29:53 am

Ummmm...I thought this was the NON SPOILER THREAD???

Ah shit, sorry. It was non-spoiler in my mind going up to the finale (if somebody had any leaked/inside info I didn't want to hear it), but I figured once aired the non-spoiler thing was lifted.

My bad. I hate spoilers. Sorry.

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #26 on:** May 14, 2009, 10:43:15 am »

Quote from: Bench on May 14, 2009, 10:41:18 am

Ah shit, sorry. It was non-spoiler in my mind going up to the finale (if somebody had any leaked/inside info I didn't want to hear it), but I figured once aired the non-spoiler thing was lifted.

My bad. I hate spoilers. Sorry.

No worries. You're right. Once it airs, it should probably be fair game. At least you won't have to listen to my literary allusionally inspired hallucinations about plot subtext...for now.

Bench · « **Reply #27 on:** May 14, 2009, 11:09:58 am »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on May 14, 2009, 10:43:15 am

No worries. You're right. Once it airs, it should probably be fair game. At least you won't have to listen to my literary allusionally inspired hallucinations about plot subtext...for now.

Heh. I will be interested in your take on the finale once you get around to it.

drew corleone · « **Reply #28 on:** May 14, 2009, 02:38:35 pm »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on May 13, 2009, 01:56:46 pm

Just the Biblical allusions. Aaron being the great great grandson of Jacob, Jacob's son being Benjamin, the tribal leader, who's mother died during birth, the two brothers fighting over their "inheiretance" that one swindled from the other...the show is littered with references to the Biblical the story of Jacob. I may be totally off about the plan for the story plot, but the references are clear. The characters, their names, their respective relationships are not simply made up. I think it's one of the things that makes the show have so much potential.

Cuse and Lindelhof have stated that the Bible is one of their biggest influences, as is The Stand, which was influenced by... the Bible.

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #29 on:** May 14, 2009, 07:04:32 pm »

OK, saw the finale. Some random thoughts:

1. The man on the beach with Jacob watching the Black Rock approach is clearly Jacob's brother (call him "Esau" if you want), and he and Jacob are at odds over the island.

2. The man representing himself as Locke is that man ("Esau"). Locke is dead. Dead is dead, you don't get to come back from that.

3. The smoke monster works for "Esau".

4. Richard may be Egyptian (the ankhs, the Egyptian god statue under which Jacob lives, etc), but Ilana called him "Ricardus" and he spoke to her in Latin.

V. The writing on the tapesty Jacob weaves is Greek, not Egyptian. Not sure what that means, but could represent a battle of the ancients, Greeks vs. Egyptians, kind of thing.

6. The nuclear blast didn't kill them, but I'm not sure it changed anything either. Just a hunch.

7. I still think Ray, Christian, Jack, Aaron and Jacob are related, and that Widmore is related to "Esau". I think Richard works for "Esau", not Jacob.

I'll need to digest it more. And maybe drink some Scotch.

Bench · « **Reply #30 on:** May 15, 2009, 10:08:00 am »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on May 14, 2009, 07:04:32 pm

OK, saw the finale. Some random thoughts:

1. The man on the beach with Jacob watching the Black Rock approach is clearly Jacob's brother (call him "Esau" if you want), and he and Jacob are at odds over the island.

2. The man representing himself as Locke is that man ("Esau"). Locke is dead. Dead is dead, you don't get to come back from that.

3. The smoke monster works for "Esau".

4. Richard may be Egyptian (the ankhs, the Egyptian god statue under which Jacob lives, etc), but Ilana called him "Ricardus" and he spoke to her in Latin.

V. The writing on the tapesty Jacob weaves is Greek, not Egyptian. Not sure what that means, but could represent a battle of the ancients, Greeks vs. Egyptians, kind of thing.

6. The nuclear blast didn't kill them, but I'm not sure it changed anything either. Just a hunch.

7. I still think Ray, Christian, Jack, Aaron and Jacob are related, and that Widmore is related to "Esau". I think Richard works for "Esau", not Jacob.

I'll need to digest it more. And maybe drink some Scotch.

My only quibble is I think the nuclear blast was the functional equivalent of Desmond turning the failsafe key, but this time I assume it transports all the pastaways to the present.

Andyzipp · « **Reply #31 on:** May 15, 2009, 10:11:29 am »

Quote from: Bench on May 15, 2009, 10:08:00 am

My only quibble is I think the nuclear blast was the functional equivalent of Desmond turning the failsafe key, but this time I assume it transports all the pastaways to the present.

I'm not even sure that Juliet was able to activate the detonator. Could have just as easily been "just" a flash. I'm still holding out hope that Elizabeth Mitchell fantastic..."scenery" will still be on the island next February (and yes, I know all about V.)

But yes, reasonably sure they're all in 2007 when Jack's eye opens up again.

Andyzipp · « **Reply #32 on:** May 15, 2009, 10:13:42 am »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on May 14, 2009, 07:04:32 pm

OK, saw the finale. Some random thoughts:

1. The man on the beach with Jacob watching the Black Rock approach is clearly Jacob's brother (call him "Esau" if you want), and he and Jacob are at odds over the island.

2. The man representing himself as Locke is that man ("Esau"). Locke is dead. Dead is dead, you don't get to come back from that.

3. The smoke monster works for "Esau".

4. Richard may be Egyptian (the ankhs, the Egyptian god statue under which Jacob lives, etc), but Ilana called him "Ricardus" and he spoke to her in Latin.

V. The writing on the tapesty Jacob weaves is Greek, not Egyptian. Not sure what that means, but could represent a battle of the ancients, Greeks vs. Egyptians, kind of thing.

6. The nuclear blast didn't kill them, but I'm not sure it changed anything either. Just a hunch.

7. I still think Ray, Christian, Jack, Aaron and Jacob are related, and that Widmore is related to "Esau". I think Richard works for "Esau", not Jacob.

I'll need to digest it more. And maybe drink some Scotch.

I'm with you on everything but 7.

Jacob and Esau is setting up to be good v evil, and Jack is a tool of Jacob, where as Christian's form is an agent of Esau. Richard was too fooled by everything to be aware that Locke wasn't Locke.

Bench · « **Reply #33 on:** May 15, 2009, 10:19:15 am »

Quote from: Andyzipp on May 15, 2009, 10:13:42 am

I'm with you on everything but 7.

Jacob and Esau is setting up to be good v evil, and Jack is a tool of Jacob, where as Christian's form is an agent of Esau. Richard was too fooled by everything to be aware that Locke wasn't Locke.

I completely agree with this. It will end up Jack and Sawyer v. Locke and Christian.

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #34 on:** May 15, 2009, 11:24:50 am »

Quote from: Andyzipp on May 15, 2009, 10:13:42 am

Jacob and Esau is setting up to be good v evil, and Jack is a tool of Jacob, where as Christian's form is an agent of Esau.

I agree that it's a good vs. evil thing. When Jacob and Esau were shown together, they were dressed alike, only Jacob in white and Esau in black. Not that it necessarily means a whole lot, but considering that's a pretty common cinematic colloquialism for which is which, I think it's telling.

Quote

Richard was too fooled by everything to be aware that Locke wasn't Locke.

Everyone was fooled. I think Esau wanted it that way. I just think Richard isn't who he pretends to be.

On a side note...as the series has progressed, Ben has become the most sympathetic character on the show. The finale hammered that home. He's a great character. I also think Hurley ends up playing a heroic part in the end. Just another hunch.

Andyzipp · « **Reply #35 on:** May 15, 2009, 11:28:27 am »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on May 15, 2009, 11:24:50 am

I agree that it's a good vs. evil thing. When Jacob and Esau were shown together, they were dressed alike, only Jacob in white and Esau in black. Not that it necessarily means a whole lot, but considering that's a pretty common cinematic colloquialism for which is which, I think it's telling.

Everyone was fooled. I think Esau wanted it that way. I just think Richard isn't who he pretends to be.

The black/white thing has been a minor theme since the first season (backgammon, Adam and Eve, Rose and Bernard, etc.)

I agree that Richard isn't what he pretends to be, but in a different way. He appeared to be one of the few who knew what was going on. Now I think he doesn't know that much at all. It kind of blew my mind that Esau-Locke was the one who told Richard to tell Real Locke that he had to die, in order to be able to assume his image when he returned to the island.

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #36 on:** May 15, 2009, 12:03:45 pm »

Quote from: Andyzipp on May 15, 2009, 11:28:27 am

The black/white thing has been a minor theme since the first season (backgammon, Adam and Eve, Rose and Bernard, etc.)

I agree that Richard isn't what he pretends to be, but in a different way. He appeared to be one of the few who knew what was going on. Now I think he doesn't know that much at all. It kind of blew my mind that Esau-Locke was the one who told Richard to tell Real Locke that he had to die, in order to be able to assume his image when he returned to the island.

I'm not sure I get that whole scene. Esau can't assume Locke's body and tell Richard that unless Locke is already dead. But Richard already told Locke that before he died. It's a sort of circular loop that is inconsistent with everything else they've done with the time travel thing.