Author Topic: Palin. WTF?  (Read 335635 times)

Lurch

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Palin. WTF?
« on: August 29, 2008, 01:39:00 pm »
I don't get it.
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matadorph

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2008, 01:40:29 pm »
It's a Hail Mary play for disaffected Hillary supporters, and it won't work.

Taras Bulba

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2008, 01:41:45 pm »
She likes to hunt, fish, and screw.  They could have done a lot worse.
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Lurch

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2008, 01:44:35 pm »
It's a Hail Mary play for disaffected Hillary supporters, and it won't work.

It's the 3rd quarter in a 3 point game.  Absurd.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2008, 01:44:54 pm »
Why do they assume Hillary supporters only liked her for being a female?  That bugs the crap out of me.  People assuming I vote for someone based on their gender.
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strosrays

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2008, 01:49:50 pm »
Why do they assume Hillary supporters only liked her for being a female?  That bugs the crap out of me.  People assuming I vote for someone based on their gender.


As opposed to, say, skin color.

Lurch

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2008, 01:50:11 pm »
Why do they assume Hillary supporters only liked her for being a female?  That bugs the crap out of me.  People assuming I vote for someone based on their gender.

While I certainly wouldnt believe all (or even most) supported her based on gender, it doesn't seem at all unreasonable to believe that a healthy number did, and I wouldnt fault such voters for it.  I think it's a good idea to have a female on the ticket, it just seems there were several other great options that could have had more impact.
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Andyzipp

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2008, 01:52:29 pm »
Why do they assume Hillary supporters only liked her for being a female?  That bugs the crap out of me.  People assuming I vote for someone based on their gender.

You overestimate the appeal of Hillary for many of her supporters.

BudGirl

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2008, 01:55:37 pm »
While I certainly wouldnt believe all (or even most) supported her based on gender, it doesn't seem at all unreasonable to believe that a healthy number did, and I wouldnt fault such voters for it.  I think it's a good idea to have a female on the ticket, it just seems there were several other great options that could have had more impact.

and I fault them for that.
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BudGirl

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2008, 01:55:55 pm »
You overestimate the appeal of Hillary for many of her supporters.

Bill was her appeal?  We'd get to see more of Bill?
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BudGirl

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2008, 01:56:33 pm »

As opposed to, say, skin color.

Pissing me off as much as those that voted for Hillary because she is a she.
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Andyzipp

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2008, 01:59:53 pm »
Bill was her appeal?  We'd get to see more of Bill?

No.  I was getting at the point that Lurch made far more elegantly.

To the same point, I have had several of my African-American co-workers tell me that the only reason they were voting for Obama was the color of his skin.  Including some that swear up and down they are conservative.

When I've questioned that line of thinking, the most honest response was, "He's Doug Williams.  When there were no black quarterbacks, you wanted Doug Williams to win that superbowl.  Once he had done it, you could go back to picking the best quarterback for your team."

Can't say I agree, but I understand, kind of.

matadorph

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2008, 02:00:21 pm »
You overestimate the appeal of Hillary for many of her supporters.

18 million people didn't vote for her just because she has a vagina.

Andyzipp

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2008, 02:01:30 pm »
18 million people didn't vote for her just because she has a vagina.

Didn't say most, didn't say all.  Said many. And it's diningenuious to think that there weren't many who voted solely because they believe her to have had a vagina at some point in her life.

matadorph

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2008, 02:04:13 pm »
What's disingenuous is presuming to climb into the minds of "many" of Clinton's supporters and claim that they voted for her solely because she's a woman.


BudGirl

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2008, 02:09:52 pm »
No.  I was getting at the point that Lurch made far more elegantly.

To the same point, I have had several of my African-American co-workers tell me that the only reason they were voting for Obama was the color of his skin.  Including some that swear up and down they are conservative.

When I've questioned that line of thinking, the most honest response was, "He's Doug Williams.  When there were no black quarterbacks, you wanted Doug Williams to win that superbowl.  Once he had done it, you could go back to picking the best quarterback for your team."

Can't say I agree, but I understand, kind of.

I knew what you were getting at.

And I never wanted Doug Williams to win a Superbowl.
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tophfar

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2008, 02:11:43 pm »
What's disingenuous is presuming to climb into the minds of "many" of Clinton's supporters and claim that they voted for her solely because she's a woman.

We get it, you voted for Hillary.  You do realize, hopefully, your experience also doesn't necessarily speak for every one who did either.
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

Andyzipp

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2008, 02:22:26 pm »
What's disingenuous is presuming to climb into the minds of "many" of Clinton's supporters and claim that they voted for her solely because she's a woman.



Why the fuck are you sensitive about this?  The general citizendry, on either side of the aisle or up the fucking middle, are sheep who vote for brand names or failing that, the most familiar.  I'd wager the vast majority would tell you the economy (especially the cost of gas) is their primary concern and they're basing their vote on who they think can fix it, when in reality NONE of the candidates for President can do a damn thing about the cost of gasoline, or the economy in general other than propose a budget. 

Clinton got 18 million votes because many believed in her policies and promises.  Many thought that reelecting her would be a return to the roaring late 90's when everyone was .com rich.  And many thought it would be fantastic if a woman was the President, damn the particulars.

kevwun

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2008, 02:26:10 pm »
She likes to hunt, fish, and screw.  They could have done a lot worse.

If only he was marrying her.
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Jacksonian

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2008, 02:28:35 pm »
I don't get it.

I do.  I don't know if I agree with it.  But I get it.
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pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2008, 02:29:20 pm »
I think the Republicans think that some people will vote for the McCain ticket because they have a woman running as the VP.  I also think that some people will vote for the Republicans just because they're running a woman, no matter her politics.  I also think that most people are so stupid it's a wonder they remember to breath.

kevwun

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2008, 02:31:21 pm »
She will pull votes from Hillary supporters only if said votes were cast based on the purported existence of a vagina.
Crazy Joe McCluskey was fucking nuts.  It's why they called him Crazy Joe.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2008, 02:33:40 pm »
Why the fuck are you sensitive about this?  The general citizendry, on either side of the aisle or up the fucking middle, are sheep who vote for brand names or failing that, the most familiar.  I'd wager the vast majority would tell you the economy (especially the cost of gas) is their primary concern and they're basing their vote on who they think can fix it, when in reality NONE of the candidates for President can do a damn thing about the cost of gasoline, or the economy in general other than propose a budget. 

Clinton got 18 million votes because many believed in her policies and promises.  Many thought that reelecting her would be a return to the roaring late 90's when everyone was .com rich.  And many thought it would be fantastic if a woman was the President, damn the particulars.

i voted for her because i think she can govern and do not think Obama can. her gender and Obama's skin color make no difference to me.
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Lurch

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2008, 02:34:33 pm »
I think the Republicans think that some people will vote for the McCain ticket because they have a woman running as the VP.  I also think that some people will vote for the Republicans just because they're running a woman, no matter her politics. 

Agree.  I wonder what they found in vetting Kay Bailey that led to them skipping over her.  Would have needed to be worse than: a BS in Journalism.  44 years old.  Only in her second year as Governor.  Husband is in the oil industry.  Biggest advocate of drilling in ANWR.
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BudGirl

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2008, 02:36:28 pm »
i voted for her because i think she can govern and do not think Obama can. her gender and Obama's skin color make no difference to me.

Same here, I like what she said about healthcare.  It just ticks me off when people assume I voted for her because she's female.
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Jacksonian

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2008, 02:37:34 pm »
Agree.  I wonder what they found in vetting Kay Bailey that led to them skipping over her.  

Pro-choice.
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Jacksonian

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2008, 02:39:06 pm »
Agree.  I wonder what they found in vetting Kay Bailey that led to them skipping over her.  Would have needed to be worse than: a BS in Journalism.  44 years old.  Only in her second year as Governor.  Husband is in the oil industry.  Biggest advocate of drilling in ANWR.

Palin because: female, pro-life, pro-oil drilling, ethics freak.
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kevwun

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2008, 02:40:02 pm »
KBH is apparently not a very nice person and it's rumored that she and McCain don't get along very well.  She's been in the senate for awhile and hasn't really done anything.  This all said, I'm glad he didn't pick her because she needs to come back to Texas and run for governor.  A governor who is content to do nothing is fine with me and a much better option than Toll Road Perry imo.
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Nate in IA

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2008, 02:42:37 pm »
Palin because: female, pro-life, pro-oil drilling, ethics freak.

Don't forget the "compelling" life story.  Her last child is a Downs Syndrome child whom she refused to abort.

pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2008, 02:44:27 pm »
Palin because: female, pro-life, pro-oil drilling, ethics freak.

also pro-ID

Nate in IA

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2008, 02:46:07 pm »
also pro-ID

I don't know what this means...

Now I do.. (thanks kevwun).   I think this particular policy doesn't matter at the federal level and is rightly left to the states.

kevwun

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2008, 02:46:21 pm »
That's the biggest problem I have with her.  She thinks creationism should be taught alongside evolution in science classes.  It's part of the reason I don't think she's going to pull in many angry Hillary supporters.  Their politics have absolutely nothing in common.
Crazy Joe McCluskey was fucking nuts.  It's why they called him Crazy Joe.

Jacksonian

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2008, 02:46:58 pm »
Don't forget the "compelling" life story.  Her last child is a Downs Syndrome child whom she refused to abort.

Yeah, that's part of the pro-life.  I was being overly brief.

First articles out make her seem like an interesting person.  I have no idea if she'd be a good VP.
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pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2008, 02:49:18 pm »
I don't know what this means...

Now I do.. (thanks kevwun).   I think this particular policy doesn't matter at the federal level and is rightly left to the states.

governing, no, voting constituency, yes.

Nate in IA

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2008, 02:49:26 pm »
Yeah, that's part of the pro-life.  I was being overly brief.

First articles out make her seem like an interesting person.  I have no idea if she'd be a good VP.

Amazingly enough, Wikipedia has a fairly decent article.  I agree, she seems to be an interesting person, almost an Anti-McCain if you will.

Nate in IA

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2008, 02:49:44 pm »
governing, no, voting constituency, yes.

Good point.

Jacksonian

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2008, 02:53:12 pm »
governing, no, voting constituency, yes.

This pick will get the talk-radio hosts and their blind sheep (not a small group) behind McCain.
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Lurch

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2008, 02:54:50 pm »
I would have thought the target would be the center, and she seems to be more ideal for the far right.  Maybe the strategy is simply to focus on exciting the typical Republicans more and ensure they get out and vote rather than trying to convert those from the left.  I would have put money on Lieberman being the pick because now seems the right time for the latter strategy.
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Nate in IA

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2008, 02:55:07 pm »
This pick will get the talk-radio hosts and their blind sheep (not a small group) behind McCain.

As one commentator I respect said today:

Quote
Sarah Palin is smart, articulate, attractive, pro-life, and pro-gun, and was even a Buchananite in 1996. Her political career has been based on fighting Republican corruption. Her ratings as Alaska governor are very high. She has a compelling life story, as they say. Her husband is one-quarter Yupik Eskimo. They have five children, including one with Down's syndrome, whom they refused to abort. Palin will bring the whole Republican base home, and some Independent and Democratic women. Palin even blunts Hillary for 2012.

Obama: the weeping, worshipping masses last night were the highpoint of your life. Get a DVD to remind you. Meanwhile, the rest of us are stuck with the crazed Liebermanite who is also a very smart pol.

matadorph

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2008, 03:00:27 pm »
No.  I was getting at the point that Lurch made far more elegantly.

To the same point, I have had several of my African-American co-workers tell me that the only reason they were voting for Obama was the color of his skin.  Including some that swear up and down they are conservative.

When I've questioned that line of thinking, the most honest response was, "He's Doug Williams.  When there were no black quarterbacks, you wanted Doug Williams to win that superbowl.  Once he had done it, you could go back to picking the best quarterback for your team."

Can't say I agree, but I understand, kind of.

Did you ask your co-workers why they weren't supporting Alan Keyes? Of if they'd supported Sharpton in 2004? Clearly, they're not voting for Obama just because he's a black man. Of course it's a factor, just as gender is a factor with Hillary Clinton and her supporters, but there's more to both Clinton and Obama than their gender or skin color.

strosrays

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2008, 03:03:17 pm »

I have heard a few on-air opinions that she has more "executive experience" than even Obama, since she was a state governor and he was only a U.S. Senator.

Other than distributing Permanent Fund monies, what exactly is involved with governing Alaska for, what?  Two years?  A couple-thousand people living in log cabins and igloos, and a lot of snow. . .

jonbloozy

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2008, 03:06:50 pm »
I say smorgasbord!

jonbloozy

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2008, 03:12:47 pm »
I say smorgasbord!

Andyzipp

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #43 on: August 29, 2008, 03:26:30 pm »
Did you ask your co-workers why they weren't supporting Alan Keyes? Of if they'd supported Sharpton in 2004? Clearly, they're not voting for Obama just because he's a black man. Of course it's a factor, just as gender is a factor with Hillary Clinton and her supporters, but there's more to both Clinton and Obama than their gender or skin color.

I'm sorry, when were Keyes and Sharpton nominated by their parties?

No is asserting that there isn't more to Clinton or Obama than their demographics.  I'm asserting many are making their choices based on Clinton and Obama's demographics.

tophfar

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #44 on: August 29, 2008, 03:26:46 pm »
Did you ask your co-workers why they weren't supporting Alan Keyes? Of if they'd supported Sharpton in 2004? Clearly, they're not voting for Obama just because he's a black man. Of course it's a factor, just as gender is a factor with Hillary Clinton and her supporters, but there's more to both Clinton and Obama than their gender or skin color.

Sooo....Clearly because someone who wasn't there says that the people who actually spoke the words, are lying about their own motivations?
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #45 on: August 29, 2008, 03:34:56 pm »
18 million people didn't vote for her just because she has a vagina.

Some of them voted for her because of her husband.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #46 on: August 29, 2008, 03:36:33 pm »
this is a silly argument, imo. in every election some voters uses all sorts of factors to justify voting for one or another candidate.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #47 on: August 29, 2008, 03:44:57 pm »
this is a silly argument, imo. in every election some voters uses all sorts of factors to justify voting for one or another candidate.

And John Q. Public's real rationale for voting for a candidate probably doesn't line up with what they admit to a pollster anyway.

Honesty or not, it's rather disheartening to hear grown people say "I voted for Obama because he's black," or "I voted for Hilary because she's a woman."   I'd like to believe people have better criteria than that.

Grab another Coke and let's die

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #48 on: August 29, 2008, 03:50:09 pm »
Or people voting for McCain because he's not black.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #49 on: August 29, 2008, 03:51:12 pm »
And John Q. Public's real rationale for voting for a candidate probably doesn't line up with what they admit to a pollster anyway.

Honesty or not, it's rather disheartening to hear grown people say "I voted for Obama because he's black," or "I voted for Hilary because she's a woman."   I'd like to believe people have better criteria than that.



I got a co-worker who keeps reminding me there's never been a half-white presidential candidate before.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #50 on: August 29, 2008, 03:52:53 pm »
And John Q. Public's real rationale for voting for a candidate probably doesn't line up with what they admit to a pollster anyway.

Honesty or not, it's rather disheartening to hear grown people say "I voted for Obama because he's black," or "I voted for Hilary because she's a woman."   I'd like to believe people have better criteria than that.



I disagree.  I think race, gender and religion are legitimate and valuable criteria.  It's a representative democracy after all.  What's wrong with believing that someone in your class might be uniquely equipped to represent you?  Sure, considering many criteria is ideal, but I would bet few get past more than a few.  And if race or gender is on the top of that list, that is completely reasonable.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #51 on: August 29, 2008, 03:56:29 pm »
It's a Hail Mary play for disaffected Hillary supporters, and it won't work.

It also means that the Republicans now have a massive problem when accusing Obama of being "not ready to be Commander in Chief", as they are proposing a yokel with 4 years experience in local BFE politics to be one beat of a 72-year old heart away from the football.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #52 on: August 29, 2008, 03:57:25 pm »
Agree.  I wonder what they found in vetting Kay Bailey that led to them skipping over her.  Would have needed to be worse than: a BS in Journalism.  44 years old.  Only in her second year as Governor.  Husband is in the oil industry.  Biggest advocate of drilling in ANWR.

Age.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #53 on: August 29, 2008, 03:57:45 pm »
I got a co-worker who keeps reminding me there's never been a half-white presidential candidate before.

If anybody qualifies for the label "African-American", I think it's got to be Obama.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #54 on: August 29, 2008, 03:58:23 pm »
one beat

Today's drinking game.  Did that phrase go out on a liberal talking point sheet or something?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #55 on: August 29, 2008, 03:58:59 pm »
No more so than electing some one short on experience to actually be the president, no death required.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #56 on: August 29, 2008, 04:00:12 pm »
I have heard a few on-air opinions that she has more "executive experience" than even Obama, since she was a state governor and he was only a U.S. Senator.

Other than distributing Permanent Fund monies, what exactly is involved with governing Alaska for, what?  Two years?  A couple-thousand people living in log cabins and igloos, and a lot of snow. . .

W was a two-term governor.  How did that work out?  Eh?  Oh.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #57 on: August 29, 2008, 04:00:20 pm »
It also means that the Republicans now have a massive problem when accusing Obama of being "not ready to be Commander in Chief", as they are proposing a yokel with 4 years experience in local BFE politics to be one beat of a 72-year old heart away from the football.

Republicans will point out that the difference is Obama would have the football not be the death of the President away from having the football.  
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #58 on: August 29, 2008, 04:02:21 pm »
It also means that the Republicans now have a massive problem when accusing Obama of being "not ready to be Commander in Chief", as they are proposing a yokel with 4 years experience in local BFE politics to be one beat of a 72-year old heart away from the football.

The Republicans don't have that problem.  Biden did the accusing for them.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #59 on: August 29, 2008, 04:03:09 pm »
Today's drinking game.  Did that phrase go out on a liberal talking point sheet or something?

It's taking a Republican staple and lobbing it back.  Standard political fodder for either side.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #60 on: August 29, 2008, 04:04:01 pm »
Everyone's talking, few of them know
The rest are pretending, they put on a show
And if there's a message I guess this is it
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #61 on: August 29, 2008, 04:06:02 pm »
No more so than electing some one short on experience to actually be the president, no death required.

But, Obama has Biden at his side who matches McCain year-for-year on foreign policy experience.  Biden is involved either way.  If McCain goes...

I'm not saying that it means anything in reality.  I'm just saying that in the nether world of political hypothetical bun fights, the Republicans just lost some of their creamy filling.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #62 on: August 29, 2008, 04:08:34 pm »
is this crap going to go on until November?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #63 on: August 29, 2008, 04:10:56 pm »
The Republicans don't have that problem.  Biden did the accusing for them.

As did Hillary.  But as I pointed out above, now that Biden is on the ticket, his experience will be at Obama's beck and call.  McCain is on his own as far as his ticket is concerned.  (Obviously there's more than 2 people running the govt at any one time).
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #64 on: August 29, 2008, 04:14:08 pm »
I disagree.  I think race, gender and religion are legitimate and valuable criteria.  It's a representative democracy after all.  What's wrong with believing that someone in your class might be uniquely equipped to represent you?  Sure, considering many criteria is ideal, but I would bet few get past more than a few.  And if race or gender is on the top of that list, that is completely reasonable.

Race, gender, and religion to find out if someone is uniquely equipped to represent you?  How about finding out their policies and experience?  Plus-even if I went with the ignorant approach-I'm a white male, 99% of the time race and gender isn't going to help me narrow it down anyway.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #65 on: August 29, 2008, 04:15:05 pm »
As did Hillary.  But as I pointed out above, now that Biden is on the ticket, his experience will be at Obama's beck and call.  McCain is on his own as far as his ticket is concerned.

So its better to have someone else's experience, but not your own, rather than actuall ybe the one with experience?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #66 on: August 29, 2008, 04:17:41 pm »
So its better to have someone else's experience, but not your own, rather than actuall ybe the one with experience?

Who's experience did the current President use?  It is a stupid argument. 

And Jim, yes, I think it will go on way past November.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #67 on: August 29, 2008, 04:19:15 pm »
also pro-ID

I need a beer thread now. 

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #68 on: August 29, 2008, 04:21:22 pm »
Would you like some babeage with your beer?

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« Reply #69 on: August 29, 2008, 04:22:03 pm »
W was a two-term governor.  How did that work out?  Eh?  Oh.

I know this isn't where you were going but...

I can definitely see the Reps accusing the Dems of what the Dems say is going on the White House now, namely that Chaney is really the guy running things.  They will make the arguement that Obama is the face but old-guard Biden will be the real power and decision maker.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #70 on: August 29, 2008, 04:23:45 pm »
Who's experience did the current President use?  It is a stupid argument. 

And Jim, yes, I think it will go on way past November.

That's fine and I understand that.  What I don't understand is how if in one case it is rationalized that advisers can temper inexperience in the position of authority, yet it is some sort of critical flaw that the single most useless job in the US Executive branch, is...inexperienced?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #71 on: August 29, 2008, 04:25:18 pm »
Who's experience did the current President use?  It is a stupid argument. 

And Jim, yes, I think it will go on way past November.

Most political arguments are stupid...and full of holes.  I hate election years.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #72 on: August 29, 2008, 04:25:32 pm »
I keep going back and forth between FOX New and MSNBC. They should drop the pretense and just call FOX the Republican Network and MSNBC the Democrat Network.
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« Reply #73 on: August 29, 2008, 04:25:41 pm »
is this crap going to go on until November?

Beer and queso means the crap will go on indefinitely.
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« Reply #74 on: August 29, 2008, 04:26:46 pm »
But, Obama has Biden at his side who matches McCain year-for-year on foreign policy experience.  Biden is involved either way.  If McCain goes...


Of course Biden could go as well....
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #75 on: August 29, 2008, 04:27:20 pm »
Would you like some babeage with your beer?

How is it that Palin in a swimsuit isn't everywhere by now?!
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #76 on: August 29, 2008, 04:28:57 pm »
How is it that Palin in a swimsuit isn't everywhere by now?!

She won Miss Congeniality.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #77 on: August 29, 2008, 04:36:52 pm »
She won Miss Congeniality.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #78 on: August 29, 2008, 05:01:14 pm »
But, Obama has Biden at his side who matches McCain year-for-year on foreign policy experience.  Biden is involved either way.  If McCain goes...

I'm not saying that it means anything in reality.  I'm just saying that in the nether world of political hypothetical bun fights, the Republicans just lost some of their creamy filling.

How many presidents have died in office without being murdered?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #79 on: August 29, 2008, 05:02:57 pm »
I keep going back and forth between FOX New and MSNBC. They should drop the pretense and just call FOX the Republican Network and MSNBC the Democrat Network.

and call Olberman a mother fucking asshole
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #80 on: August 29, 2008, 05:05:51 pm »
Pro-ID? You mean that Tom Cruise wacky shit that the head of the Texas State Board of Education, Don McLeroy, is also into?

Intelligent Design. What a misnomer that is.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #81 on: August 29, 2008, 05:11:10 pm »
How many presidents have died in office without being murdered?

Harrison and FDR are the only ones I can think of offhand.  Anyone else?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #82 on: August 29, 2008, 05:15:17 pm »
and call Olberman a mother fucking asshole

An insane delusional mother fucking asshole, to be more specific. And then there's Bill O'Reilly on the other side.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #83 on: August 29, 2008, 05:16:09 pm »
Harrison and FDR are the only ones I can think of offhand.  Anyone else?

Harding, although his death was suspicious. just like Limey's will be.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #84 on: August 29, 2008, 05:17:34 pm »
Harrison and FDR are the only ones I can think of offhand.  Anyone else?

It's not exactly a common occurrance.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #85 on: August 29, 2008, 05:22:38 pm »
Harding, although his death was suspicious. just like Limey's will be.

Limey's going to die while beta testing the Iphone's new program/attachment... The I-BJ.

ZZZZZZZT!
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #86 on: August 29, 2008, 05:30:34 pm »
Limey's going to die while beta testing the Iphone's new program/attachment... The I-BJ.

You BJ?

Harding, although his death was suspicious. just like Limey's will be.

Also Taylor.

It's not exactly a common occurrance.

9.3% of the time, it happens every time.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #87 on: August 29, 2008, 05:51:36 pm »

Also Taylor.

9.3% of the time, it happens every time.

And like Harding's, Taylor's death was suspicious.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #88 on: August 29, 2008, 05:58:18 pm »
Doesnt this count as international experience?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #89 on: August 29, 2008, 06:23:22 pm »
Doesnt this count as international experience?

'She said succulent'

Nice find, that was a hilarious clip!
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #90 on: August 29, 2008, 07:54:07 pm »
Doesnt this count as international experience?

That was one sexy bitch.  The governor didn't look too bad either.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #91 on: August 29, 2008, 08:21:07 pm »
And like Harding's, Taylor's death was suspicious.

It wasn't so much that the death was suspicious, but everyone looked suspicious.  For one thing, everyone was wearing hats.  Hats.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #92 on: August 29, 2008, 08:33:22 pm »
'She said succulent'

Nice find, that was a hilarious clip!

Is she governor or Pope?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #93 on: August 29, 2008, 09:07:39 pm »
Isn't she under investigation in Alaska for corruption charges?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #94 on: August 29, 2008, 09:39:00 pm »
Isn't she under investigation in Alaska for corruption charges?

Apparently for possibly maybe not being involved with the firing of a state tooper that taserd his 11 year old son.  Who happens to be her sisters ex-husband.

Quote
For the most part, trooper investigators found that the accusations were unsubstantiated, but in at least two cases -- Wooten's illegally killing of a moose in 2003 and his Tasering of his 11-year-old stepson -- were confirmed. The troopers later disciplined him for them.

I dont think anyone is going to care much.
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #95 on: August 29, 2008, 09:53:51 pm »
Apparently for possibly maybe not being involved with the firing of a state tooper that taserd his 11 year old son.  Who happens to be her sisters ex-husband.

I dont think anyone is going to care much.

It's a sideshow.  Many, many other issues to address here.

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« Reply #96 on: August 29, 2008, 10:00:59 pm »
Apparently for possibly maybe not being involved with the firing of a state tooper that taserd his 11 year old son.  Who happens to be her sisters ex-husband.

Ok so its not involved with the other state representative.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #97 on: August 29, 2008, 10:08:48 pm »
Ok so its not involved with the other state representative.

Ted Stevens?  No.  In fact she was directly involved in cutting one of his pet projects, the previously mentioned "Bridge to Nowhere".
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #98 on: August 29, 2008, 10:10:04 pm »
Ted Stevens?  No.  In fact she was directly involved in cutting one of his pet projects, the previously mentioned "Bridge to Nowhere".

She is spectacularly unqualified.  Alaska has the population of Fort Worth.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #99 on: August 29, 2008, 10:49:15 pm »
She is spectacularly unqualified.  Alaska has the population of Fort Worth.

I generally hate political discusions in here, but what makes a her unqualified?

Just because she is Republican?

Fort Worth people are worth nothing?

No, I don't know at this point if she is worth a point in the voting selection, but she seems as qualified as most of the people being proposed in the general election process.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #100 on: August 29, 2008, 11:05:36 pm »
I generally hate political discusions in here, but what makes a her unqualified?

Just because she is Republican?

Fort Worth people are worth nothing?

No, I don't know at this point if she is worth a point in the voting selection, but she seems as qualified as most of the people being proposed in the general election process.

Then Republicans should shut up about Obama if thats the case.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #101 on: August 29, 2008, 11:13:21 pm »
Then Republicans should shut up about Obama if thats the case.

What? The presidential candidate should have less experience running...anything than the VP? I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Maybe she should be able to give a better prepared speech? Be a couple of years older? What?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #102 on: August 29, 2008, 11:15:27 pm »
Would you like some babeage with your beer?


holy crap!  is that really her?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #103 on: August 29, 2008, 11:53:59 pm »
She is spectacularly unqualified.  Alaska has the population of Fort Worth.


I can't think of anyone more spectacularly unqualified for the job they are seeking than Obama.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #104 on: August 30, 2008, 01:05:22 am »
What? The presidential candidate should have less experience running...anything than the VP? I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Maybe she should be able to give a better prepared speech? Be a couple of years older? What?

 ??? huh? Theres a good chance she could end up being president but i guess her experience outside of washington in a town of 5k and the distant state of Alaska is far more impressive than that of Obama's. Obama the guy who has a greater grasp of law terminology because I dunno, he kinda graduated from Harvard Law at the top of his class and went into using his knowledge to help the community of south Chicago. I dunno, Obama, the same guy that (in a demorcratic minority) has helped in passing legislation with the likes of John McCain on many subjects from weapons control (not abolish...but control) to climate change and nuclear terrorism. The same Obama who is a junior member of the foreign relations committee in Washington. Heck, I garantee no one would have given a damn about what Palin thought about Iraq years ago too but people listened to Obama. Now all the sudden Palin is sooo sooo much more experienced. If you actually sit down and read about what Obama has done within the Chicago community and state legislative as a whole, you'd realize he has more experience than people give him credit for.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2008, 01:09:16 am by Towlie »

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #105 on: August 30, 2008, 01:18:38 am »

I can't think of anyone more spectacularly unqualified for the job they are seeking than Obama.

Which was a great 'selling point' against 'Black Jesus' until McCain decided to pick a running mate that made Obama look more qualified for President that Henry friggin' Kissinger...
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« Reply #106 on: August 30, 2008, 01:32:36 am »
Which was a great 'selling point' against 'Black Jesus' until McCain decided to pick a running mate that made Obama look more qualified for President that Henry friggin' Kissinger...

lol, but you know, one thing i absolutely hate about this current election is the fact that both candidates we have feel like giant risk. I was ok with McCain at first because McCain had a history of working between both parties. Now it just seems like hes changed to get the votes from the republican base down and hes not really that same appealing figure he was in the 2000 election. Obama is an enigma, even if he did have McCain type years in Washington. That's mainly because he comes from a younger generation of politician, our next generation.

The debates should be good for us all and should really tell us more about Obama than McCain. If Obama doesn't show the same confidence in a debate that he has in his speeches, then there should be some concern.

Anyways, good night guys I finished my paper  ;D.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #107 on: August 30, 2008, 02:36:58 am »
She is spectacularly unqualified.  Alaska has the population of Fort Worth.

For what?  Does anyone not realize SHE IS NOT GOING TO BE THE FUCKING PRESIDENT?

her job will consist of, as all VP's, waking up in the morning calling the Oval Office  and saying "Not dead yet?  Ok cool, talk to you tomorrrow." And then going back to fucking sleep.

The vice president is about as useful as Vanna White on Wheel of fucking Fortune.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #108 on: August 30, 2008, 06:19:52 am »
The vice president is about as useful as Vanna White on Wheel of fucking Fortune.

Where were you over the last seven and a half years?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #109 on: August 30, 2008, 07:36:00 am »
Where were you over the last seven and a half years?

Cheney is the exception to the rule on that one.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #110 on: August 30, 2008, 08:23:09 am »
I generally hate political discusions in here, but what makes a her unqualified?

Just because she is Republican?

Fort Worth people are worth nothing?

No, I don't know at this point if she is worth a point in the voting selection, but she seems as qualified as most of the people being proposed in the general election process.

You're taking a dim view of the election process and if that is as far as you go, then there is no explaining this to you.  I suppose by "most of the people" you mean Barrack Obama.  You can of course dismiss education, community organizing and being a United States Senator, none of that qualifies a person to be President, or even Vice President.  I'm not sure what does qualify someone, but I think thinking about the issues and planning some solutions is the minimum criteria.  Obama has thought about the issues facing the country and he has shared and tested his ideas with the country.  So far most voters, voters you may not care about, think he has some good ideas.

Palin has not thought about any issues that face the country except for how to get more oil.  She knows nothing about foreign policy and has admitted to being uninformed about Iraq.  She does know where Russia is, but she doesn't need to locate it on the map, she can just say, "over there".   She has no plan for health care.  She hasn't thought about tax policy, bankruptcy laws, housing, regulation of the commodities markets.  She doesn't have any opinions on education policy, other than it's OK to teach myths in science class.  She hasn't been campaigning, which is more than standing in front of people and talking, for 18 months.  You may think that Alaska is a suitable sample of the opinions of the United States, I don't.  Alaska has as many people as Fort Worth.

On her side she's shooed out the obviously corrupt politicans in Alaska.  She's forced the energy companies to pay their taxes.  Her energy policy is to drill.  Her qualifications for the selection, in the Republicans view, consists primarily of her opinions on social issues and a kick ass high school nickname.

If you think the Vice Presidency is a do nothing job, then again, who cares who the VP is, qualified or not.  However the last two VPs have been very involved in creating and implementing policy.  The world is too complicated to waste the office.  Palin has admitted to not even knowing what it is a VP does.

If you're looking to sock it to the Harper Valley PTA, then Sarah Palin is probably the right person for the job.  But we have serious problems in this country and we need serious people to solve them.  Not just people who look like (or even look better than) you and me and our neighbors.  We need people who are way smarter than you and me. 

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #111 on: August 30, 2008, 08:24:13 am »
Cheney is the exception to the rule on that one.

Gore, GHW Bush, Mondale, Lyndon Johnson played a pretty big role as VP.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #112 on: August 30, 2008, 08:43:06 am »
You're taking a dim view of the election process and if that is as far as you go, then there is no explaining this to you.  I suppose by "most of the people" you mean Barrack Obama.  You can of course dismiss education, community organizing and being a United States Senator, none of that qualifies a person to be President, or even Vice President.  I'm not sure what does qualify someone, but I think thinking about the issues and planning some solutions is the minimum criteria.  Obama has thought about the issues facing the country and he has shared and tested his ideas with the country.  So far most voters, voters you may not care about, think he has some good ideas.

Palin has not thought about any issues that face the country except for how to get more oil.  She knows nothing about foreign policy and has admitted to being uninformed about Iraq.  She does know where Russia is, but she doesn't need to locate it on the map, she can just say, "over there".   She has no plan for health care.  She hasn't thought about tax policy, bankruptcy laws, housing, regulation of the commodities markets.  She doesn't have any opinions on education policy, other than it's OK to teach myths in science class.  She hasn't been campaigning, which is more than standing in front of people and talking, for 18 months.  You may think that Alaska is a suitable sample of the opinions of the United States, I don't.  Alaska has as many people as Fort Worth.

On her side she's shooed out the obviously corrupt politicans in Alaska.  She's forced the energy companies to pay their taxes.  Her energy policy is to drill.  Her qualifications for the selection, in the Republicans view, consists primarily of her opinions on social issues and a kick ass high school nickname.

If you think the Vice Presidency is a do nothing job, then again, who cares who the VP is, qualified or not.  However the last two VPs have been very involved in creating and implementing policy.  The world is too complicated to waste the office.  Palin has admitted to not even knowing what it is a VP does.

If you're looking to sock it to the Harper Valley PTA, then Sarah Palin is probably the right person for the job.  But we have serious problems in this country and we need serious people to solve them.  Not just people who look like (or even look better than) you and me and our neighbors.  We need people who are way smarter than you and me. 

Very well written and thoughtful. Thank you for a good response, pravata. There is a reason I try to RMPL. I do not agree with everything, but it is always better to read thoughful comments than just partisan blather. That is what is frustrating.

I will get back to lurking.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #113 on: August 30, 2008, 08:44:36 am »

holy crap!  is that really her?

It's really her face, photoshopped on to some other person's body.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #114 on: August 30, 2008, 08:46:56 am »
Very well written and thoughtful. Thank you for a good response, pravata. There is a reason I try to RMPL. I do not agree with everything, but it is always better to read thoughful comments than just partisan blather. That is what is frustrating.

I will get back to lurking.

You're welcome. 

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #115 on: August 30, 2008, 08:54:33 am »
Which was a great 'selling point' against 'Black Jesus' until McCain decided to pick a running mate that made Obama look more qualified for President that Henry friggin' Kissinger...

I don't get the "Black Jesus" comment, if anything he's "Opposite Half-White Kennedy" at least for those who are hung up on the combination of the race thing and comparing to past historical people thing. All of which is subterfuge for the minions and really has not basis in rational thought. I keep waiting for him to say, "Ask not what you can do for your country, but ask, what can your country do for you."
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #116 on: August 30, 2008, 09:16:20 am »
Very well written and thoughtful. Thank you for a good response, pravata. There is a reason I try to RMPL. I do not agree with everything, but it is always better to read thoughful comments than just partisan blather. That is what is frustrating.

I will get back to lurking.

I'm sorry, I did seem like that angry bantering democrat. I just get annoyed by the assertion that Obama has no experience but pravata made a good point of course.

*hugs*

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #117 on: August 30, 2008, 10:26:46 am »
Obama is gonna go after Osama, but if McCain knew where he was hiding, he wouldn't do anything
I say smorgasbord!

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #118 on: August 30, 2008, 10:34:06 am »
Obama is gonna go after Osama, but if McCain knew where he was hiding, he wouldn't do anything

Is this sarcasm?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #119 on: August 30, 2008, 10:35:38 am »
I don't get it.

1) Palin helps McCain with the conservative base, unlike Tom Ridge or Joe Lieberman. Reviled though these voters may be in many quarters, their turnout is imperative to McCain having any shot at winning in November. If they stay home, he loses, no matter how much appeal his ticket has to independents or wavering Democrats.

2) Palin isn't, like Mitt Romney, another rich white guy with a family name in politics. She's from a middle-class background and a mother of five. While this may not really be relevant to being elected vice president, it's not necessarily bad electoral politics.

3) While Palin won't appeal to many or even most of the millions of women and men who voted for Hillary Clinton, if she peels off even a few of them in key states, that could be significant. More importantly, there are also millions of women, such as suburban married women, who might find Palin appealing. Women voters are not confined to the urban upscale professional women and working-class women who comprised among the most ardent constituencies among Hillary's supporters.

4) In her brief political career, Palin has a record of challenging entrenched interests in her own party over corruption issues. This is significant since the GOP presently has a poor record on ethics, which is a turn off to independents and rank-and-file Republican voters who might otherwise turn out for McCain. Palin beat Murkowski for governor and has pushed Stevens to come clean. Compare this to Obama's rise in the Chicago Democratic political machine.

5) Of the four politicians on the two major tickets, Palin is the only one who is genuinely an outsider. Although this plays into her weakness of a limited resume, it may have appeal for some voters. Her resistance to the corrupt party machine in her home state adds to this. Heck, not being in the United States Senate might be a good enough credential for some people.

6) Her biggest weakness is of course her absolute dearth of national or international experience. It appears that the McCain camp has decided that conceding this issue that they could have used against Obama is worth whatever positives they think Palin brings to the campaign.

7) Ideologically, her most controversial position is likely her support for teaching creationism alongside evolution in the public schools. Out of the mainstream though this may be, I doubt that too many people who find this a basis to oppose her were likely to vote for her anyway. For everyone else, it's a minor issue or a non-issue. Your local school board member has more input on this than the vice president or president.

8) McCain's only chance of winning is taking a gamble, since this year sucks for Republicans thanks to the GOP's poor showing in the White House and in Congress recently. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but he had to try something, and apparently Mitt Romney or Tim Pawlenty weren't it. Lieberman would've been bold, but then McCain loses the base, which, as noted above, means he loses almost automatically.

9) I think what the McCain campaign specifically hopes to achieve is to target suburban married women, which would be the key to winning the white vote and the married vote, since he's going to carry white men and married men anyway, as the GOP always does. If McCain can win the white vote and the married vote by large enough numbers, then it doesn't matter how much he appeals to anybody else, because those constituencies are large enough and tend to have high enough voter turnout to help him carry the dozen or so key states necessary to achieve a majority in the electoral college.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2008, 10:40:06 am by Arky Vaughan »

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #120 on: August 30, 2008, 10:42:33 am »
Is this sarcasm?

It is to everyone except Obama, who apparently really believes that John McCain wouldn't go after Osama if he knew what cave Osama's hiding in. Obama also seems to believe that John McCain really thinks people making $4 $5 million per year are middle class.

"John McCain likes to say that he'll follow bin Laden to the Gates of Hell -- but he won't even go to the cave where he lives."

"Now, I don't believe that Senator McCain doesn't care what's going on in the lives of Americans. I just think he doesn't know. Why else would he define middle-class as someone making under five million dollars a year?"

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08242/907981-470.stm?cmpid=elections.xml

« Last Edit: August 30, 2008, 10:59:14 am by Arky Vaughan »

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #121 on: August 30, 2008, 10:55:41 am »
  We need people who are way smarter than you and me. 

I wholly disagree with this statement.  We need someone stupid enough to do nothing for a while and let the rest of us get to fixing what's wrong.  The whole problem is that "we the people" have been expecting some dufus on high to guide things when in fact they can only screw things up.  Besides that, someone smarter than me could not get elected.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #122 on: August 30, 2008, 10:56:02 am »
It is to everyone except Obama, who apparently really believes that John McCain wouldn't go after Osama if he knew what cave Osama's hiding in. Obama also seems to believe that John McCain really thinks people making $4 million per year are middle class.

Obama doesn't believe that either. It's called sophistry. For the minions.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #123 on: August 30, 2008, 11:05:47 am »
Those that believe people don't vote based on demographic are nuts. There are many that either don't take the time to understand a candidate's economic/foreign/health care/etc. plans or don't have the capacity to do so. Therefore, there are many that vote based on simple concepts such as what a candidate looks like, or how charismatic he/she is or what that candidates social beliefs are and how all of those things relate to the voter themselves.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #124 on: August 30, 2008, 11:18:00 am »
I generally hate political discusions in here, but what makes a her unqualified?

Just because she is Republican?

Fort Worth people are worth nothing?

No, I don't know at this point if she is worth a point in the voting selection, but she seems as qualified as most of the people being proposed in the general election process.

exactly.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #125 on: August 30, 2008, 11:28:44 am »
Is this sarcasm?

Yes, kinda - paraphrased from Obama's speech

Quote
John McCain likes to say that he'll follow Bin Laden to the Gates of Hell - but he won't even go the cave where he lives

In context, I think it's referring to McCain's statement that Pakistan is a sovereign nation and would not openly say he'd do it without their permission.

From Larry King
Quote
KING: If you were president and knew that bin Laden was in Pakistan, you know where, would you have U.S. forces go in after him?

MCCAIN: Larry, I'm not going to go there and here's why, because Pakistan is a sovereign nation. I think the Pakistanis would want bin Laden out of their hair and out of their country and it's causing great difficulties in Pakistan itself.

But I want to assure you I will get Osama bin Laden as president of the United States and I will bring him to justice no matter what it takes.

I say smorgasbord!

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #126 on: August 30, 2008, 11:52:22 am »
You're taking a dim view of the election process and if that is as far as you go, then there is no explaining this to you.  I suppose by "most of the people" you mean Barrack Obama.  You can of course dismiss education, community organizing and being a United States Senator, none of that qualifies a person to be President, or even Vice President.  I'm not sure what does qualify someone, but I think thinking about the issues and planning some solutions is the minimum criteria.  Obama has thought about the issues facing the country and he has shared and tested his ideas with the country.  So far most voters, voters you may not care about, think he has some good ideas.

So what qualifications for the top post include sitting around and thinking about stuff, but not actually doing anything.  Obama had been a Senator when he began his presidential campaign about as long as Palin has been a Govenor.  Why does one count but not the other.

But qualifications for the post with no responsibility, require significantly more than that.

Gotcha.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2008, 11:55:42 am by tophfar »
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #127 on: August 30, 2008, 12:02:10 pm »
For me, it all boils down to how much do you believe each candidate.  If someone tells me we will no longer be dependent on foreign oil in ten years and wants to invest $150 billion in renewable energy, great.  I tend to want to see a detailed plan on how that is actually going to work, but Obama has had no problem convincing a whole lot of people that it will.

I'm one of those independent voters that might swing the election.  And I'm not sure I believe either of these guys.  It's hard to get an unbiased opinion from any news source.  People have talked to me about Obama and McCain and I find myself asking: would you have voted for a Republican/Democrat if the candidates were different?  I have a hard time listening to someone talk about Obama who wouldn't vote for any Democrat.  Same goes for McCain.  These people convince me about as much as bumper stickers do.
I say smorgasbord!

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #128 on: August 30, 2008, 12:22:38 pm »
1) Palin helps McCain with the conservative base, unlike Tom Ridge or Joe Lieberman. Reviled though these voters may be in many quarters, their turnout is imperative to McCain having any shot at winning in November. If they stay home, he loses, no matter how much appeal his ticket has to independents or wavering Democrats.

2) Palin isn't, like Mitt Romney, another rich white guy with a family name in politics. She's from a middle-class background and a mother of five. While this may not really be relevant to being elected vice president, it's not necessarily bad electoral politics.

3) While Palin won't appeal to many or even most of the millions of women and men who voted for Hillary Clinton, if she peels off even a few of them in key states, that could be significant. More importantly, there are also millions of women, such as suburban married women, who might find Palin appealing. Women voters are not confined to the urban upscale professional women and working-class women who comprised among the most ardent constituencies among Hillary's supporters.

4) In her brief political career, Palin has a record of challenging entrenched interests in her own party over corruption issues. This is significant since the GOP presently has a poor record on ethics, which is a turn off to independents and rank-and-file Republican voters who might otherwise turn out for McCain. Palin beat Murkowski for governor and has pushed Stevens to come clean. Compare this to Obama's rise in the Chicago Democratic political machine.

5) Of the four politicians on the two major tickets, Palin is the only one who is genuinely an outsider. Although this plays into her weakness of a limited resume, it may have appeal for some voters. Her resistance to the corrupt party machine in her home state adds to this. Heck, not being in the United States Senate might be a good enough credential for some people.

6) Her biggest weakness is of course her absolute dearth of national or international experience. It appears that the McCain camp has decided that conceding this issue that they could have used against Obama is worth whatever positives they think Palin brings to the campaign.

7) Ideologically, her most controversial position is likely her support for teaching creationism alongside evolution in the public schools. Out of the mainstream though this may be, I doubt that too many people who find this a basis to oppose her were likely to vote for her anyway. For everyone else, it's a minor issue or a non-issue. Your local school board member has more input on this than the vice president or president.

8) McCain's only chance of winning is taking a gamble, since this year sucks for Republicans thanks to the GOP's poor showing in the White House and in Congress recently. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but he had to try something, and apparently Mitt Romney or Tim Pawlenty weren't it. Lieberman would've been bold, but then McCain loses the base, which, as noted above, means he loses almost automatically.

9) I think what the McCain campaign specifically hopes to achieve is to target suburban married women, which would be the key to winning the white vote and the married vote, since he's going to carry white men and married men anyway, as the GOP always does. If McCain can win the white vote and the married vote by large enough numbers, then it doesn't matter how much he appeals to anybody else, because those constituencies are large enough and tend to have high enough voter turnout to help him carry the dozen or so key states necessary to achieve a majority in the electoral college.


God, I hate politics

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #129 on: August 30, 2008, 05:48:42 pm »
I wholly disagree with this statement.  We need someone stupid enough to do nothing for a while and let the rest of us get to fixing what's wrong.  The whole problem is that "we the people" have been expecting some dufus on high to guide things when in fact they can only screw things up.  Besides that, someone smarter than me could not get elected.

Wrong. Everyone one of us is focused on what's right for us individually. We need someone focused on what's right for us collectively. "...among these rights are life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  To secure these rights governments are instituted among men."  What am I quoting?

pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #130 on: August 30, 2008, 05:49:51 pm »

God, I hate politics

Then please, don't vote.  I'm not being mean, this shit matters.  Either pay attention or get out of the way.

pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #131 on: August 30, 2008, 05:54:53 pm »
So what qualifications for the top post include sitting around and thinking about stuff, but not actually doing anything.  Obama had been a Senator when he began his presidential campaign about as long as Palin has been a Govenor.  Why does one count but not the other.

But qualifications for the post with no responsibility, require significantly more than that.

Gotcha.

Name me one president who did what he said what he was going to do before he did it?  Obama is far more qualified for the simple reason that he has formulated ideas and tested them by talking to the people who these policies will affect.  The demographic of Alaska is severely limited.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #132 on: August 30, 2008, 07:55:39 pm »
Wrong. Everyone one of us is focused on what's right for us individually. We need someone focused on what's right for us collectively. "...among these rights are life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  To secure these rights governments are instituted among men."  What am I quoting?

The Declaration of Independence of course.  I'm not wrong.   That document that you quoted was for sovereign and independent states, not a monolithic collective.  We do NOT need someone worrying about the collective.  We need someone who actually believes the Declaration and the Constitution and gets the federal government the hell out of the way.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #133 on: August 31, 2008, 09:11:54 am »
Then please, don't vote.  I'm not being mean, this shit matters.  Either pay attention or get out of the way.

oh please.  there's the operation of the government, facilitation of our constitution, building of highways, etc. and there's politics.  i care about how my government is operated, but i don't care about politics, which seems to be almost entirely about turning the operation of the government into some kind of stupid middle school game.  oh let's talk again about how this alaska governor fits into the 9 strategies designed to make some ambiguous marketing platitude about how one guy's a better leader or if one guy dies or wants to get an abortion or wears flip flops.  that seems to me a good way to make this shit not matter-- to turn our government into an episode of america's top model
« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 10:28:17 am by Joey Trum »

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #134 on: August 31, 2008, 10:32:57 am »
The Declaration of Independence of course.  I'm not wrong.   That document that you quoted was for sovereign and independent states, not a monolithic collective.  We do NOT need someone worrying about the collective.  We need someone who actually believes the Declaration and the Constitution and gets the federal government the hell out of the way.

STFU or move to the mountains. i fucking cannot believe someone talks this way in 2008. you embarrass yourself.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #135 on: August 31, 2008, 10:42:52 am »
STFU or move to the mountains. i fucking cannot believe someone talks this way in 2008. you embarrass yourself.



He's already in Iowa - how far to you want him to go?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #136 on: August 31, 2008, 10:51:41 am »
STFU or move to the mountains. i fucking cannot believe someone talks this way in 2008. you embarrass yourself.



Who are the Whigs running this year?

Nate in IA

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #137 on: August 31, 2008, 11:04:42 am »
STFU or move to the mountains. i fucking cannot believe someone talks this way in 2008. you embarrass yourself.

And one wonders why this country is in so much trouble.   You're the one whose embarassing yourself.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #138 on: August 31, 2008, 11:05:55 am »
And one wonders why this country is in so much trouble.   You're the one whose embarassing yourself.

I am going to use my first amendment right and say, no he's not.
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Andyzipp

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #139 on: August 31, 2008, 11:08:32 am »
And one wonders why this country is in so much trouble.   You're the one whose embarassing yourself.

IIRC, you're a Liberatarian, yes?  And Jim considers himself a Democrat. 

You are not likely to ever agree on anything regarding politics.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #140 on: August 31, 2008, 11:12:07 am »
I am going to use my first amendment right and say, no he's not.


You don't have any First Amendment rights on this board, sister.  This ain't no democracy, it's a totalitarian facist "ism" of some sort. 
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #141 on: August 31, 2008, 11:13:49 am »
Then please, don't vote.  I'm not being mean, this shit matters.  Either pay attention or get out of the way.

You don't need to pay attention.  You just need to know which of the candidate's you'd rather have a beer with.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #142 on: August 31, 2008, 11:16:41 am »
You don't need to pay attention.  You just need to know which of the candidate's you'd rather have a beer with.


Hmmmm...I enjoy having a beer with Limey.  I'm pretty sure he'd be the LAST guy I'd vote for President.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #143 on: August 31, 2008, 11:38:26 am »
IIRC, you're a Liberatarian, yes?  And Jim considers himself a Democrat. 

You are not likely to ever agree on anything regarding politics.

I'm an anarchist, I just wish all would be more tolerant of other views.
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Col. Sphinx Drummond

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #144 on: August 31, 2008, 11:39:40 am »

Hmmmm...I enjoy having a beer with Limey.  I'm pretty sure he'd be the LAST guy I'd vote for President.

'Cause he's English... right?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #145 on: August 31, 2008, 11:40:52 am »
'Cause he's English... right?


Limey's English?
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #146 on: August 31, 2008, 11:42:33 am »
IIRC, you're a Liberatarian, yes?  And Jim considers himself a Democrat. 

You are not likely to ever agree on anything regarding politics.

Quite true.   So it should be he that moves to the mountains yes?   (where's the smiley when you need it?)

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #147 on: August 31, 2008, 12:59:33 pm »

You don't have any First Amendment rights on this board, sister.  This ain't no democracy, it's a totalitarian facist "ism" of some sort. 

Thought we were an anarcho-syndicalist commune. 
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #148 on: August 31, 2008, 01:52:29 pm »

You don't have any First Amendment rights on this board, sister.  This ain't no democracy, it's a totalitarian facist "ism" of some sort. 

The technical term is "Spackritocracy."
Goin' for a bus ride.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #149 on: August 31, 2008, 04:21:50 pm »
Where's our damn waiter? We need more chips for this queso.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #150 on: August 31, 2008, 05:37:35 pm »
And one wonders why this country is in so much trouble.   You're the one whose embarassing yourself.

Jefferson Davis? is that you? your bullshit lost in 1865. take your states' rights shit to Haiti or somewhere. just STFU. you and Ron Paul can have a circle jerk and lament how the country is going to hell.

fucking idiot.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #151 on: August 31, 2008, 05:38:41 pm »
I'm an anarchist, I just wish all would be more tolerant of other views.

you can fucking leave too. Nate needs an assistant.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #152 on: August 31, 2008, 05:40:26 pm »
Name me one president who did what he said what he was going to do before he did it?  Obama is far more qualified for the simple reason that he has formulated ideas and tested them by talking to the people who these policies will affect.  The demographic of Alaska is severely limited.

Obama is lighter than popcorn, but he will win.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #153 on: August 31, 2008, 06:19:21 pm »
Jefferson Davis? is that you? your bullshit lost in 1865. take your states' rights shit to Haiti or somewhere. just STFU. you and Ron Paul can have a circle jerk and lament how the country is going to hell.

fucking idiot.

Ah, the old 'might makes right' credo.   Rule of law?  Means nothing except for a way for you to screw over anyone who crosses you.  Fuck off.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #154 on: August 31, 2008, 07:01:05 pm »
Obama is lighter than popcorn, but he will win.

I think you're wrong about that.  Not the winning part, he's practically had this handed to him.  I also think he's on a mission regarding health care. 

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #155 on: August 31, 2008, 07:04:38 pm »
I think you're wrong about that.  Not the winning part, he's practically had this handed to him.  I also think he's on a mission regarding health care. 

Not being an ass with this question...But what exactly is his health care plan?  Hillary's was pretty well defined.  Obama's is a bit more nebulous, although I'm probably not looking in the right place.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #156 on: August 31, 2008, 07:22:02 pm »
Not being an ass with this question...But what exactly is his health care plan?  Hillary's was pretty well defined.  Obama's is a bit more nebulous, although I'm probably not looking in the right place.

National health insurance for all, cheaper premiums than you have now, improved quality... funding unclear.  Policy position states funding will come from cost savings through conversion to paper records, competition between drug providers and the expiration of the Bush tax cuts.  I'm inept at posting links but he has a little FAQ on his website.  I think the characterization that it is not fleshed out enough as an opening policy fight for such a bruising and complex issue is fair.  If he tackles it, I think there's no way he can do so successfully in his first year. But my past life as a political consultant for the existing health care establishment biases me to thinking it's borderline political suicide for anyone other than a late term popular president to tackle (think Bubba at the end) or maybe Hillary would have had a shot given she already experienced the beatdown once.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #157 on: August 31, 2008, 07:29:28 pm »
you can fucking leave too. Nate needs an assistant.

WFW
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #158 on: August 31, 2008, 07:33:21 pm »
Not being an ass with this question...But what exactly is his health care plan?  Hillary's was pretty well defined.  Obama's is a bit more nebulous, although I'm probably not looking in the right place.

All companies either provide health care or pay into a national pool.  Federal help for companies, esp. small companies that experience high cost incidents.  Expanded Medicare and SCHIP, create a health care exchange which will include a federal program, where people can purchase health coverage http://www.thehealthcareblog.com/the_health_care_blog/2008/03/a-detailed-anal.html

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #159 on: August 31, 2008, 11:38:56 pm »

holy crap!  is that really her?

Popular bumper sticker in Alaska:  Coldest State. Hottest Governor!

I keep searching this thread for the resume of Obama's experience <crickets chirping>.  Oh wait.  He's talked with people that know things.  Wonderful.  Smart money is on him pulling it off, but strap yourself in for Carter years Part 2.  Americans have such a bad memory.  Let's bang the oil industry so we can idle our cars in gas lines again.  Oh wait, how about really sticking it to the rich?  That way, they won't make any investments in the economy.  Terrific.  Now I'm not saying McCain is in Reagans leauge but he's at least in the parking lot close to the field.  Obama is nowhere close to the gold standard.  "Trickle down" economics really works.  Just ask W.J. Clinton, who reaped the benefits of those who repaired the mess left by Carter.

G.W Bush?  Eh.  What can I say?  I've tried to defend the guy over the years but he's made it tough at times.  At least we've not had planes crashing into buildings a second time.  Props for really getting the shit together on this Gustav mess that's about to happen.  Best wishes to those here affected or that have family being evacuated.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #160 on: September 01, 2008, 12:04:15 am »
I report.  You decide:  http://townhall.com/blog/g/9b3375c7-6a27-4b5e-9204-b267282a1ce1

This one is interesting from a rubbernecking standpoint.  Check out the DKos pics and arguments.  If true, then Palin is toast.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #161 on: September 01, 2008, 02:31:14 am »
Name me one president who did what he said what he was going to do before he did it?  Obama is far more qualified for the simple reason that he has formulated ideas and tested them by talking to the people who these policies will affect.  The demographic of Alaska is severely limited.

Name me what part is Palin running for president?  Why are you comparing the bottom part of the GOP ticket to the top part of the Dem ticket?  Shouldnt that already tell you about the qualifications about the person who will be making the decisions and implementing policy, is that the best that can be done is to compare him against the person who will not be in charge?

Much less to the fact, that even though she, as you say has governed a state with as few people as Fort Worth, thats still an infinite more times amount of people than Obama has ever governed.  Period.  And he's the one thats going to be in charge.  Being a freshman senator for a year and half, and sitting around thinking about stuff does not actually include any kind of policy implementation or executive experience. So whatever amount, in small quantity, that Palin may have, she STILL has MORE than Obama.  And she's just the VP.

There are reasons why Govenors get elected President, and Senators, as a rule, do not.

Obama will do well to not bring this issue up, he will get trounced on it every which way and three times on sunday.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2008, 02:39:24 am by tophfar »
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #162 on: September 01, 2008, 08:27:42 am »
Not being an ass with this question...But what exactly is his health care plan?  Hillary's was pretty well defined.  Obama's is a bit more nebulous, although I'm probably not looking in the right place.

1. Get people who are not covered at all into ObamaCare.
2. Get more and more people who are inadequately covered into ObamaCare.
3. Get everyone else into ObamaCare.
4. Become Canada and wait months for a CAT scan, put doctors in jail for practicing outside ObamaCare and fly people across state lines to find beds to have babies delivered.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2008, 08:30:08 am by Arky Vaughan »

Col. Sphinx Drummond

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #163 on: September 01, 2008, 09:33:14 am »

There are reasons why Govenors get elected President, and Senators, as a rule, do not.

Obama will do well to not bring this issue up, he will get trounced on it every which way and three times on sunday.

Well, he could mention that a governorship is a job sometimes filled by pro-wrestlers and bad actors--and just leave it at that.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #164 on: September 01, 2008, 09:56:49 am »
Well, he could mention that a governorship is a job sometimes filled by pro-wrestlers and bad actors--and just leave it at that.

I don't know how many Harvard law graduates you've dealt with, but I'm not sure pro wrestlers or bad actors are necessarily any less qualified to hold elected office.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2008, 09:06:31 pm by Arky Vaughan »

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #165 on: September 01, 2008, 11:34:29 am »
I report.  You decide:  http://townhall.com/blog/g/9b3375c7-6a27-4b5e-9204-b267282a1ce1

This one is interesting from a rubbernecking standpoint.  Check out the DKos pics and arguments.  If true, then Palin is toast.


Considering Palin's 17 year old daughter is currently 5 months pregnant, I'd say this rumor has no legs.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #166 on: September 01, 2008, 11:53:48 am »

Considering Palin's 17 year old daughter is currently 5 months pregnant, I'd say this rumor has no legs.

Yeah, I just caught that a few minutes ago.  Supposedly McCain knew in advance.  Innerestin' to see how this one plays out.  Should be a family matter, but who knows?  Shit happens, but Palin is gonna catch some grief over it.  I'll be watching to see how they do or don't handle it.
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Col. Sphinx Drummond

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #167 on: September 01, 2008, 11:59:16 am »

Considering Palin's 17 year old daughter is currently 5 months pregnant, I'd say this rumor has no legs.

Oh great, now Obama can spin that McCain is for teen pregnancies. I'm kidding... I hope.

Actually, I feel for that young girl. What pressure. I'd hate to be a out-of-wedlock pregnant teenage daughter dealing with the media scrutiny of a mom running for VP of the USA (on a conservative ticket). Bad enough if her mom was just some mayor of a town with just a few thousand people, or just a governor of a state with the population of Ft. Worth.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2008, 12:01:52 pm by Sphinx Drummond »
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #168 on: September 01, 2008, 12:05:05 pm »
Yeah, I just caught that a few minutes ago.  Supposedly McCain knew in advance.  Innerestin' to see how this one plays out.  Should be a family matter, but who knows?  Shit happens, but Palin is gonna catch some grief over it.  I'll be watching to see how they do or don't handle it.


It should be a family matter, but it won't be, just like Clinton's blowjob wasn't.  It was a vital national security interest.  Plus, she's being touted as the cure for the moral scandals that currently haunt the GOP.  Talking heads are already asking if her daughter would have been less likely to get knocked up had her mother been around more often.  This is the party that rails on the lack of proper parently skills as being the reason their children screw up.  She's being painted as a huge hypocrite.  Already, after a few hours.  We'll see how she handles it, but "It's a private matter, please don't bring it up again" just isn't going to fly with the public.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #169 on: September 01, 2008, 12:07:06 pm »
Oh great, now Obama can spin that McCain is for teen pregnancies. I'm kidding... I hope.

Actually, I feel for that young girl. What pressure. I'd hate to be a out-of-wedlock pregnant teenage daughter dealing with the media scrutiny of a mom running for VP of the USA (on a conservative ticket). Bad enough if her mom was just some mayor of a town with just a few thousand people, or just a governor of a state with the population of Ft. Worth.


When the daughter got pregnant, no one outside of Alaska had ever heard of Sarah Palin.  Now the pregnant teenager is the lead story on the national news. 
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #170 on: September 01, 2008, 12:14:49 pm »

When the daughter got pregnant, no one outside of Alaska had ever heard of Sarah Palin.  Now the pregnant teenager is the lead story on the national news. 

Wow.  I feel bad for the daughter.  I can only imagine how hard being 17 and pregnant is, but now the whole world is judging her.  I'm still not voting for her mom though.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #171 on: September 01, 2008, 12:50:13 pm »

It should be a family matter, but it won't be, just like Clinton's blowjob wasn't.  It was a vital national security interest.  Plus, she's being touted as the cure for the moral scandals that currently haunt the GOP.  Talking heads are already asking if her daughter would have been less likely to get knocked up had her mother been around more often.  This is the party that rails on the lack of proper parently skills as being the reason their children screw up.  She's being painted as a huge hypocrite.  Already, after a few hours.  We'll see how she handles it, but "It's a private matter, please don't bring it up again" just isn't going to fly with the public.

I couldn't agree more.  I having a VERY hard time believing that McCain knew about this in advance.  It just seems like a pile of shit that no sane candidate would willingly step into (either party).  I also feel very badly for the daughter that will be headline news.  Brutal for a child that age (under 18 imho is a child).  Teenage girls get pregnant sometimes and it's difficult enough without that kind of pressure. 
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #172 on: September 01, 2008, 01:20:23 pm »
1. Get people who are not covered at all into ObamaCare.
2. Get more and more people who are inadequately covered into ObamaCare.
3. Get everyone else into ObamaCare.
4. Become Canada and wait months for a CAT scan, put doctors in jail for practicing outside ObamaCare and fly people across state lines to find beds to have babies delivered.


SF more or less has universal health care, and it recently came through for me big time.  I worked the last six months as a private teacher for a child with autism, employed by the child's mother, and so I had no insurance through my job.  Also supporting a newborn baby, I couldn't afford insurance for myself over the last couple of months.  Two weeks ago I had to get a chest x-ray and see a doctor when my TB test (for my current job with the school district) came up positive.  I went to the city-provided doctor and the whole thing ended up costing me only $15, and I only had to wait about an hour total.

Furthermore, there's an herbal medicine place in my neighborhood that has cured countless of my family's colds and infections, all for about a tenth of what a comparable pharmaceutical would cost, and in quicker time and with no side effects.

I'm sure everybody here has some nightmare stories in dealing with the health care industry, many positive stories too I'm sure, and certainly not every public health care experience will be as positive as mine, but to just knock the concept of universally available healthcare based on hypothetical horror stories that already happen in the private system seems to me to be missing the point.

ETA:  and by the way, I don't have TB
« Last Edit: September 01, 2008, 01:51:24 pm by Joey Trum »

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #173 on: September 01, 2008, 03:07:30 pm »
Wow.  I feel bad for the daughter.  I can only imagine how hard being 17 and pregnant is, but now the whole world is judging her.  I'm still not voting for her mom though.

Obama campaign just released a statement on the news saying this topic will be off the table and violators will be fired.  Very impressive by Obama and the right thing to do.  This won't stop the 24 hour news cycle or the late night comedians.  I don't envy that young girl right now and can't imagine that type of pressure at that age.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #174 on: September 01, 2008, 03:10:13 pm »
Well, he could mention that a governorship is a job sometimes filled by pro-wrestlers and bad actors--and just leave it at that.

Or that McCain has never been anything other than a senator himself.   Are we supposed to ignore that?  Or, if he was looking for "executive experience" he could have gone with Pawlenty, Ridge, Romney, Jindal, Guliani, I think the list goes on, Thompson, etc, etc, etc. 

pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #175 on: September 01, 2008, 03:12:47 pm »
Obama campaign just released a statement on the news saying this topic will be off the table and violators will be fired.  Very impressive by Obama and the right thing to do.  This won't stop the 24 hour news cycle or the late night comedians.  I don't envy that young girl right now and can't imagine that type of pressure at that age.

Both parties are flying researchers up to Alaska to do real real research, which means looking through the local papers, the actual paper and the microfiche to find out about the Governor. You mean not everything is on the Internet?  They'll find something in a day or 2 to knock this off the lead.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #176 on: September 01, 2008, 03:16:57 pm »
It should be a family matter, but it won't be, just like Clinton's blowjob wasn't.

Sorry there HH, actions of the daughter of VP nominee ≠ actions of the President of the United States in the Oval Office.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #177 on: September 01, 2008, 03:24:07 pm »
Sorry there HH, actions of the daughter of VP nominee ≠ actions of the President of the United States in the Oval Office.


I didn't say they were equal.  I said neither were germaine to anything other than their own families.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #178 on: September 01, 2008, 03:34:26 pm »
I know someone who is Obama's head of new media for new mexico. How the fuck could they not have people who could comb through all this shit in advance of picking someone.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #179 on: September 01, 2008, 03:35:52 pm »
I know someone who is Obama's head of new media for new mexico. How the fuck could they not have people who could comb through all this shit in advance of picking someone.

Either they're lazy, stupid, or they dont know any better.  I dont think it's the first 2. 

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #180 on: September 01, 2008, 03:37:51 pm »
What you're saying is that they need a campaign librarian.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #181 on: September 01, 2008, 03:40:13 pm »
Either they're lazy, stupid, or they dont know any better.  I dont think it's the first 2. 

The cynic in me thinks was probably a calculated risk. About half of people vote with their heart and not with their brain. Emotion rather than reason.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #182 on: September 01, 2008, 03:45:30 pm »
What you're saying is that they need a campaign librarian.

They need someone who understands how to research.  That's not limited to librarians, but a lot of people have deluded themselves into thinking that research is just googling.  This mistake is about to bite some very important people in the ass.

pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #183 on: September 01, 2008, 03:46:18 pm »
The cynic in me thinks was probably a calculated risk. About half of people vote with their heart and not with their brain. Emotion rather than reason.

I was refering to the people who are trying to get someone elected, not the voters.

pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #184 on: September 01, 2008, 03:56:28 pm »
Sorry there HH, actions of the daughter of VP nominee ≠ actions of the President of the United States in the Oval Office.

However, this news, which McCain apparently knew about, and conservative radio in Alaska had been talking about, cuts off what I thought was going to be her campaign strategy, talking about her background.  I imagined get acquainted speech after get acquainted speech about how she got where she is and all the "family values" stuff.  Now that is a very risky conversation.  What's left is the reformer angle, several stories are cranking up to challenge that, and her ideas about an energy policy, which is "drill here (literally) and drill now".  I think McCain is still resisting pushing ANWR so that could be tricky. 

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #185 on: September 01, 2008, 03:58:33 pm »
Drudge Report is all over the story of the daughter now.  Below is a really impressive piece that I still can't believe is associated with CNN, as CNN seldom shows this much class.

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1837862,00.html?xid=rss-topstories

ETA:  Just read the Obama release and picked up the tidbit that was new to me, that his mother was 18 when he was born.  McCain could have made the calculated decision, that this fact alone makes the whole issue mute.  Still, I'm thunderstruck that both McCain and Palin would knowingly subject Palin's daughter to this.  At a minimum, Palin knew that this WOULD come out eventually.  Now that I think on it, it kinda irritates me.  You get offered the job of a lifetime, but your kid is going to suffer for it.  What do you do?  You take the job?!?  Did the daughter have any input into moms decision?  The truth to that would be the question I'd like the honest answer to.  If Palin is so naive as to think that would not be a major source of presumably unwanted attention/pressure on her daughter, then she is delusional.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2008, 04:15:31 pm by UpTooLate »
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #186 on: September 01, 2008, 04:26:32 pm »
What's her stance on sex-ed?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #187 on: September 01, 2008, 04:34:18 pm »
What's her stance on sex-ed?

I'm pretty sure she's on the record as being pro sex-ed and pro-contraception.  She's also admitted to being a "normal" teenager/college student and doing what normal teenagers/college students in 70's/80's did, which includes smoking marijuana.  I'm not sure how much pre-marital sex she admits to, but it's probably out there somewhere.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #188 on: September 01, 2008, 04:40:10 pm »
Actually a bit refreshing to see a story like this come out that doesn't involve the politician being a total hypocrite.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #189 on: September 01, 2008, 04:42:53 pm »
Actually a bit refreshing to see a story like this come out that doesn't involve the politician being a total hypocrite.


I don't agree that there isn't an element of hypocrisy in the story.  Total hypocrite?  Maybe not.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #190 on: September 01, 2008, 05:28:39 pm »

I don't agree that there isn't an element of hypocrisy in the story.  Total hypocrite?  Maybe not.

It smells of mom placing her political ambitions ahead of her daughters welfare.  The daughter is close to being an adult and will have to mature quickly, but she is still a kid.  Who wants their child as the butt of late night jokes, splashed all over the 24 hour news cycle and ripped to shreds on the blogoshpere with something so personal?  How could Palin NOT know this would be heavily scrutinized?  Completely naive.  That reflects negatively on her judgment.  The only way I'm cool with it is if Bristol said: "Really mom, don't worry about me, you go for it".  That would show maturity, but Bristol is still a child and sometimes adults need to step in to be the adult.  If the republicans/mom planned this as an angle to their advantage by appealing to their base (which seems to be occurring), then shame on them. 
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #191 on: September 01, 2008, 06:29:21 pm »
It smells of mom placing her political ambitions ahead of her daughters welfare.  The daughter is close to being an adult and will have to mature quickly, but she is still a kid.  Who wants their child as the butt of late night jokes, splashed all over the 24 hour news cycle and ripped to shreds on the blogoshpere with something so personal?  How could Palin NOT know this would be heavily scrutinized?  Completely naive.  That reflects negatively on her judgment.  The only way I'm cool with it is if Bristol said: "Really mom, don't worry about me, you go for it".  That would show maturity, but Bristol is still a child and sometimes adults need to step in to be the adult.  If the republicans/mom planned this as an angle to their advantage by appealing to their base (which seems to be occurring), then shame on them. 

Wow.  From that perspective, any parent that goes into politics is making a decision that makes their kids vulnerable to media scrutiny and so all politicians with kids show bad judgment?  And that's not even factoring in the enormous drain that a political career has on a parent's time and availability.  Do you not remember how the press speculated endlessly on poor, awkward teenage Chelsea Clinton or the sad tale of McGovern's late daughter who he admits suffered tremendously due to his political career?  But when you have thought about those people as leaders, have you ever taken that into account in your appraisal of their "judgment". 

I personally would need to know a lot more about a public figure than I'm probably entitled to know to make a judgment on their parenting skills.  What the fuck do you know about the dynamics of their family, what level of extended familal support system they may have, etc. that qualifies you to make a judgment on this woman as a mother?

And the idea that they "planned" this whole unwed teenage mother thing as a helpful political angle is just ridiculous.  It's no coincidence that the release was put out on a holiday with a major hurricane as the news focus - they're getting it out there and hoping it moves off the front page as quickly as possible. 

The feminist in me needs to point out the ridiculous double standard that she's a "bad mom" for pursuing her career here while just a week ago Biden was being lauded for what a great dad he was for taking the train home for a 4 hour commute every day while he pursued his career rather than making choices that made him more available for his quite young and recently motherless kids.  Gee, I wonder why there's a glass ceiling. 

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #192 on: September 01, 2008, 06:59:03 pm »
The most ironic part of the story is that Palin was an advocate for abstinence-only sex education.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #193 on: September 01, 2008, 07:20:55 pm »
I feel so lied to, HH.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #194 on: September 01, 2008, 07:48:48 pm »
It smells of mom placing her political ambitions ahead of her daughters welfare.  The daughter is close to being an adult and will have to mature quickly, but she is still a kid.  Who wants their child as the butt of late night jokes, splashed all over the 24 hour news cycle and ripped to shreds on the blogoshpere with something so personal?  How could Palin NOT know this would be heavily scrutinized?  Completely naive.  That reflects negatively on her judgment.  The only way I'm cool with it is if Bristol said: "Really mom, don't worry about me, you go for it".  That would show maturity, but Bristol is still a child and sometimes adults need to step in to be the adult.  If the republicans/mom planned this as an angle to their advantage by appealing to their base (which seems to be occurring), then shame on them. 

If I understand what you're saying, it seems your premise--that there's something wrong happening--is based on your perception of the facts extrapolated in a sequence to meet a desired conclusion.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #195 on: September 01, 2008, 07:56:56 pm »
Wow.  From that perspective, any parent that goes into politics is making a decision that makes their kids vulnerable to media scrutiny and so all politicians with kids show bad judgment?  And that's not even factoring in the enormous drain that a political career has on a parent's time and availability.  Do you not remember how the press speculated endlessly on poor, awkward teenage Chelsea Clinton or the sad tale of McGovern's late daughter who he admits suffered tremendously due to his political career?  But when you have thought about those people as leaders, have you ever taken that into account in your appraisal of their "judgment". 

I personally would need to know a lot more about a public figure than I'm probably entitled to know to make a judgment on their parenting skills.  What the fuck do you know about the dynamics of their family, what level of extended familal support system they may have, etc. that qualifies you to make a judgment on this woman as a mother?

And the idea that they "planned" this whole unwed teenage mother thing as a helpful political angle is just ridiculous.  It's no coincidence that the release was put out on a holiday with a major hurricane as the news focus - they're getting it out there and hoping it moves off the front page as quickly as possible. 

The feminist in me needs to point out the ridiculous double standard that she's a "bad mom" for pursuing her career here while just a week ago Biden was being lauded for what a great dad he was for taking the train home for a 4 hour commute every day while he pursued his career rather than making choices that made him more available for his quite young and recently motherless kids.  Gee, I wonder why there's a glass ceiling. 

Sorry, no comparison here with Chelsea or Amy Carter, both of whom were quite awkward as children.  Or the Bush girls that did what teens do AFTER dad got elected.  Like it or not, unwed teen pregnancy is a stigma in our society.  To expose a minor to that cesspool when you know of the situation in advance borders on victimization imho.  When she is either 18 or married, then she is a legal adult.  Until then she is a child.  If this situation were to occur with an adult daughter, then it is a complete non issue.

So her and Levi are "planning" to get married?  She's five months along and the parents approve, why has that not occurred yet?  I wouldn't bet against the chance that she doesn't marry the guy.  That's the daughters business, but since it's now a campaign pledge, it's a different story.  I have no idea what type of mother Palin is.  She might bake the best chocolate chip cookies ever, but we do know that she places politics ahead of her daughter.  Maybe being a heart attack away from the football is too tempting for any mortal.   

We all see life through the lenses of our own experiences.  My experience dictates that there are situations where adults should place their own self interests second to their children. 

I was blown away by Palin's introduction speech.  Then again, I'm a Republican faithful that's never voted Democrat at the presidential level.  I was riding high on the McCain ticket after Palin's introduction until this broke.  I'm reconsidering my vote.  Maybe I come back around given new information.   

Am I beginning to agree with Pravata on politics?  That's scary.  Credit where credit is due, there were other choices McCain could have made that would have been more appropriate given what we now know and what McCain/Palin already knew.  This Bobby Jindal of Louisiana is putting on one hell of an impressive show as a leader.  He's got my vote when he's on the ticket.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #196 on: September 01, 2008, 08:10:25 pm »
I have no idea what type of mother Palin is.  She might bake the best chocolate chip cookies ever, but we do know that she places politics ahead of her daughter.  Maybe being a heart attack away from the football is too tempting for any mortal.   

"We?"

Do you or have you ever had a teenage daughter? You can't watch them every second, you have to trust them at some point.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #197 on: September 01, 2008, 08:16:31 pm »
If I understand what you're saying, it seems your premise--that there's something wrong happening--is based on your perception of the facts extrapolated in a sequence to meet a desired conclusion.

Yeah, something like that.  Watch and read the news coverage.  The base if FIRED up.  Mom had a child with Downs Syndrome after she knew about the condition.  She should be congratulated.  They are even MORE fired up now that this young heroine is not aborting her child.  She too should be congratulated on making the decision that she wants to make.  However, I don't put it past politicos to calculate that sequence of events as a positive to their campaign.  To me, it's victimization of a minor by the parent.  So what that she's 17?  The law draws the line at 18 or marriage.  What if the father was a neighbor that was 45 years old?  Do you think there would NOT be discussion of victimization of a minor regardless of "age of consent" law in Alaska?

To be clear on my premise:  Don't expose your minor children to unnecessary embarrassment, ridicule or pressure when you know in advance that your actions will make the minor exposed.  Maybe the daughter wanted to be pregnant, married, etc., maybe not.  That's irrelevant and a private family issue.

Had the Bush girls pulled their stunts before or during dads campaign, it would have been an issue because they were not of legal age to drink.  Pile on that dad used to be a drunk.  Again, a family matter, but it would have brought unnecessary attention to those girls and dad likely would not have been elected.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #198 on: September 01, 2008, 08:17:04 pm »
but we do know that she places politics ahead of her daughter. 

Would you say this about a male politician in the same situation?  Probably not.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #199 on: September 01, 2008, 08:21:03 pm »

I was blown away by Palin's introduction speech.  Then again, I'm a Republican faithful that's never voted Democrat at the presidential level.  I was riding high on the McCain ticket after Palin's introduction until this broke.  I'm reconsidering my vote.  Maybe I come back around given new information.   


That this would be the deciding factor for you is laughable, period.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #200 on: September 01, 2008, 08:23:57 pm »
"We?"

Do you or have you ever had a teenage daughter? You can't watch them every second, you have to trust them at some point.

No, I have a 6 year old son and a 21 year old step daughter (my wife had just turned 18 when she was born). Likely will be the only children we have as my new wife and I plan on no more children.

I'm not piling on the girl.  Kids make mistakes.  I'm piling on the mother.  Mom could have said "no thank you" and remained the Governor of Alaska.  Her daughter's pregnancy would have rightly been a personal family issue.  Mom accepted the invitation with the knowledge that her daughter would be exposed to the cesspool.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2008, 08:43:19 pm by UpTooLate »
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #201 on: September 01, 2008, 08:25:40 pm »
Mom had a child with Downs Syndrome after she knew about the condition.  She should be congratulated. 

Based on what should she be congratulated?  Doing the right thing?  Lots of people do the right thing and no one is congratulating them. 
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #202 on: September 01, 2008, 08:26:35 pm »
Would you say this about a male politician in the same situation?  Probably not.

Yes I would.  See: Bush daughters.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #203 on: September 01, 2008, 08:33:18 pm »
Based on what should she be congratulated?  Doing the right thing?  Lots of people do the right thing and no one is congratulating them. 

Based on the fact that many parents would assume that the child's quality of life wouldn't be worth shit since it had Downs Syndrome.  I would HATE to have to make that decision.  The only way I can relate to it was the nervousness of when my own child was born.  My ex elected not to have the test done.  Her pregnancy was high risk and the outcome uncertain.  Luckily he's just fine.

Doing the right thing when nobody is looking is called integrity.  Plenty of people have it.  Sure there are numerous acts of decency that go unnoticed, but that does not necessarily mean that they should.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #204 on: September 01, 2008, 08:35:10 pm »
Mom could have said "no thank you" and remained the Governor of Alaska.  Her daughter's pregnancy would have rightly been a personal family issue.  

Good point.  Governor of Alaska would be a good low profile job void of any further embarrassment for the girl.  Those dumb Alaskans still teletype Jim to ask for tech advice.  Their press could never hook on to this story.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #205 on: September 01, 2008, 08:38:20 pm »
That this would be the deciding factor for you is laughable, period.

I've never considered the abuse of minors laughable.  You disagree with my premise, that's your gig.

Would you expose your child (assuming you have children) to that level of scrutiny and pressure?

Add to the equation that political calculation could have taken place and it's very unfortunate for the girl.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #206 on: September 01, 2008, 08:39:10 pm »
...Am I beginning to agree with Pravata on politics?  That's scary. ...

Don't get crazy.  If McCain was already president would he pick Gov. Palin as vp?  I'm more than anxious to see this campaign played out on the issues.  And the RNC needs to get on with their convention, including speeches by Bush and Cheney.  South Louisiana has shaken off bigger storms than this without their attention. 

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #207 on: September 01, 2008, 08:54:51 pm »
Don't get crazy.  If McCain was already president would he pick Gov. Palin as vp?  I'm more than anxious to see this campaign played out on the issues.  And the RNC needs to get on with their convention, including speeches by Bush and Cheney.  South Louisiana has shaken off bigger storms than this without their attention. 

Sorry man, I'm insane tonight. 

Caught an interview with Dick Morris and his advice was classic:  "If McCain wants to get elected, he needs to make every possible distinction on how he is different from Bush/Cheney."  Dick Morris is a pretty astute guy when it comes to politics and I think he's correct on that.

Storm/aftermath is still not known.  We'll see tomorrow.  They are already talking about breaches of levies and unknown damage in the rural areas.  Bush rightly paid attention this go around.  Regardless of your politics, you have to be impressed at the evacuation of 2 million people and zero looting.  Very sharp work and coordination amongst agencies regardless of party affiliations.

The one that needs to be in Minneapolis instead of wherever, pretending that he's assisting with relief efforts is McCain.  Seriously.  He was on T.V. filling boxes with toys for kids and whatnot.  Get the fuck to your convention and tell us what you plan to do because none of us believe you filled more than three boxes of whatnot.

ETA:  If McCain were President right now and the V.P. died and he got another choice..... Bobby Jindal all the way!  What is the procedure for when a V.P. dies in office?  Bueller? Bueller?
« Last Edit: September 01, 2008, 09:12:57 pm by UpTooLate »
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #208 on: September 01, 2008, 09:13:10 pm »
Sorry man, I'm insane tonight. 

Caught an interview with Dick Morris and his advice was classic:  "If McCain wants to get elected, he needs to make every possible distinction on how he is different from Bush/Cheney."  Dick Morris is a pretty astute guy when it comes to politics and I think he's correct on that.

Storm/aftermath is still not known.  We'll see tomorrow.  They are already talking about breaches of levies and unknown damage in the rural areas.  Bush rightly paid attention this go around.  Regardless of your politics, you have to be impressed at the evacuation of 2 million people and zero looting.  Very sharp work and coordination amongst agencies regardless of party affiliations.

The one that needs to be in Minneapolis instead of wherever, pretending that he's assisting with relief efforts is McCain.  Seriously.  He was on T.V. filling boxes with toys for kids and whatnot.  Get the fuck to your convention and tell us what you plan to do because none of us believe you filled more than three boxes of whatnot.

ETA:  If McCain were President right now and the V.P. died and he got another choice..... Bobby Jindal all the way!  What is the procedure for when a V.P. dies in office?  Buhler? Buhler?

West Wing told me that the Pres nominates a replacement who is confirmed by the House.  And if that is blocked, John Goodman is next in line if anything happens to the President.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #209 on: September 01, 2008, 09:32:07 pm »
West Wing told me that the Pres nominates a replacement who is confirmed by the House.  And if that is blocked, John Goodman is next in line if anything happens to the President.

But he has to resign first, which is a caveat I had never considered.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #210 on: September 01, 2008, 09:37:13 pm »
West Wing told me that the Pres nominates a replacement who is confirmed by the House.  And if that is blocked, John Goodman is next in line if anything happens to the President.

Excellent work.  Don't always agree with you, but you ARE good at that kind of stuff.  Must be the librarian thing.

I can now sleep well knowing John Goodman is ready to step up.  What made you pull that name out of the sky?  Interesting choice now that you mention it.  Fat guy.  Personable. Drinks beer.  But can he stand up to Putin and that Akmadenijad (or however you spell it) fellow in Iran?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #211 on: September 01, 2008, 09:50:05 pm »
Goodman portrayed the Speaker/President in the WW episodes in question.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #212 on: September 01, 2008, 09:51:53 pm »
Excellent work.  Don't always agree with you, but you ARE good at that kind of stuff.  Must be the librarian thing.

I can now sleep well knowing John Goodman is ready to step up.  What made you pull that name out of the sky?  Interesting choice now that you mention it.  Fat guy.  Personable. Drinks beer.  But can he stand up to Putin and that Akmadenijad (or however you spell it) fellow in Iran?

Goodman was in West Wing, he played the Speaker of the House who is 3rd in line.  VP resigned in a sex scandal, President wasnt able to get a new VP before his daughter was kidnapped and he thought he was going looney (dont ask) so he temporarily gives the office over to Goodman.   Goodman, as Pres., wanted to bomb everybody.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #213 on: September 01, 2008, 10:06:01 pm »
Goodman was in West Wing, he played the Speaker of the House who is 3rd in line.  VP resigned in a sex scandal, President wasnt able to get a new VP before his daughter was kidnapped and he thought he was going looney (dont ask) so he temporarily gives the office over to Goodman.   Goodman, as Pres., wanted to bomb everybody.

That's awesome.  So what you are saying is that he IS up to the task?

Never watched a single episode of WW so I missed the joke on the first go around. 
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #214 on: September 01, 2008, 10:25:18 pm »
UpTooLate.  I noticed that you've drawn a distinction between what an 18 year old can do versus a 17 year old, who you term to be "not an adult".  Does it matter that the age of consent in Alaska is 16?  In the eyes of her state, she is considered an adult.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #215 on: September 01, 2008, 11:14:50 pm »
Not being an ass with this question...But what exactly is his health care plan?  Hillary's was pretty well defined.  Obama's is a bit more nebulous, although I'm probably not looking in the right place.

I would be gobsmacked if Obama's healthcare plan didn't end up looking exactly the same as Clinton's.  You don't get that big a roll over in such a short space of time without making lots and lots of promises.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #216 on: September 02, 2008, 12:26:39 am »
UpTooLate.  I noticed that you've drawn a distinction between what an 18 year old can do versus a 17 year old, who you term to be "not an adult".  Does it matter that the age of consent in Alaska is 16?  In the eyes of her state, she is considered an adult.

Fair question, I'll do my best.

17 = kiddie porn
18 = legal porn

Regardless of your feelings about porn, it's an important distinction.  Not to mention voting or dying for your country.  18 is the federally accepted age of consent and adulthood in the USA.

If the father of the baby was 45, the conversation would be about how an immature man seduced or coerced a young girl

You might disagree, but that's where I draw my personal distinctions.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #217 on: September 02, 2008, 06:06:13 am »
Fair question, I'll do my best.

17 = kiddie porn
18 = legal porn

Regardless of your feelings about porn, it's an important distinction.  Not to mention voting or dying for your country.  18 is the federally accepted age of consent and adulthood in the USA.


There's a vast difference between two love struck teenagers yielding to temptation and an adult recording a sex act with a minor. Distinctions that are polar opposites on my moral compass.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #218 on: September 02, 2008, 06:36:02 am »
In most states, 16 is the age at which a person can consent to sex but there is usually an age qualifier that the other person is within a certain range (2 to 4 years if my memory serves) and there is no indication of a "power" relationship (i.e. teacher, youth minister etc.).

Age of consent is different than age of majority. 
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UpTooLate

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #219 on: September 02, 2008, 07:13:48 am »
There's a vast difference between two love struck teenagers yielding to temptation and an adult recording a sex act with a minor. Distinctions that are polar opposites on my moral compass.

Let's be fair here.  Zipp asked me a "nuance" question.  I gave an extreme example.  My point is that at some point you draw a line or in this case an age, and stick with it.  In my head that age is 18.  I've left open that people can and will disagree.  Sure there are people under the age of 18 with the maturity to be treated as adults and there are people over that age that act like children.  My problem with "age of consent" laws is that if you can have sex with the person, but you can't legally look at a nude picture of them, then you need a good therapist and a good lawyer.  Why?  Because they are not adults. 17 year old's hooking up with other 17 year old's is what kids do and sometimes they get pregnant.  That's not the issue with me.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #220 on: September 02, 2008, 07:46:23 am »
But we have serious problems in this country and we need serious people to solve them. 

So you noticed the Sorkin influence on the acceptance speech, too?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #221 on: September 02, 2008, 08:59:47 am »
So you noticed the Sorkin influence on the acceptance speech, too?

That's from American President.  And that is a great speech "...He is interested in two things and two things only ... making you afraid of it and telling you whose to blame for it ... "

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #222 on: September 02, 2008, 09:23:07 am »
I love everything about that movie.

And I'm not joking... I think Obama's seen it, and internalized it.  The move of staring into the front camera and saying "I welcome that debate", as well as several other touches... eerily similar.
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #223 on: September 02, 2008, 09:32:54 am »
I love everything about that movie.

And I'm not joking... I think Obama's seen it, and internalized it.  The move of staring into the front camera and saying "I welcome that debate", as well as several other touches... eerily similar.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #224 on: September 02, 2008, 10:10:42 am »
Based on what should she be congratulated?  Doing the right thing?  Lots of people do the right thing and no one is congratulating them. 

I really think that a significant portion of the pro-life population believe that somebody who is pro-choice ("choice") will always abort as a matter of simple convenience, and could care less about the profound personal effect of such a choice on the person making it, regardless of what decision is made.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #225 on: September 02, 2008, 10:38:08 am »
I love everything about that movie.

And I'm not joking... I think Obama's seen it, and internalized it.  The move of staring into the front camera and saying "I welcome that debate", as well as several other touches... eerily similar.

Including the part about sitting down with the federal budget and just doing a page turn to mark out wasteful programs. Maybe Kevin Kline can advise on how best to do this.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #226 on: September 02, 2008, 10:39:42 am »
I really think that a significant portion of the pro-life population believe that somebody who is pro-choice ("choice") will always abort as a matter of simple convenience, and could care less about the profound personal effect of such a choice on the person making it, regardless of what decision is made.

What's your basis for thinking this?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #227 on: September 02, 2008, 10:42:08 am »
Just wondering about topics like this ... Does the offensiveness of the thoughts expressed make up for the defensive attitude of the poster?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #228 on: September 02, 2008, 10:44:21 am »
Including the part about sitting down with the federal budget and just doing a page turn to mark out wasteful programs. Maybe Kevin Kline can advise on how best to do this.

Wrong movie.  That's "Dave".
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #229 on: September 02, 2008, 10:48:39 am »
This pick keeps getting better and better.  Palin was a member of the Alaskan Independence Party until 1996.  Their goal is a statewide vote on secession .  She recorded a video message that was shown at their convention this year.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #230 on: September 02, 2008, 10:57:26 am »
Just wondering about topics like this ... Does the offensiveness of the thoughts expressed make up for the defensive attitude of the poster?

I guess that you are talking about me.  Not sure what your point is.

I threw out an opinion.  Got challenged.  Responded.  Got challenged further.  Kept responding.  I've tried to refrain from defensiveness, but if that's your take on it, so be it.  On topics like this, we seldom change the other persons mind, but do have fun in the process.  In regards to offensive thoughts, I'll agree they are unpleasant.  

We've seen this cycle played out time and again on this forum.  
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #231 on: September 02, 2008, 10:59:29 am »
Wrong movie.  That's "Dave".

I forgot. American President is the one with Michael Douglas and Anette Benning, right?

But he could still do the page-turn through the budget to mark out wasteful spending, right?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #232 on: September 02, 2008, 11:01:18 am »
Just wondering about topics like this ... Does the offensiveness of the thoughts expressed make up for the defensive attitude of the poster?

This thread is tame compared to others. I hold Limey responsible for keeping this so civil.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #233 on: September 02, 2008, 11:02:07 am »
This pick keeps getting better and better.  Palin was a member of the Alaskan Independence Party until 1996.  Their goal is a statewide vote on secession .  She recorded a video message that was shown at their convention this year.

So is she a secessionist?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #234 on: September 02, 2008, 11:19:37 am »
What's your basis for thinking this?

Discussions with family members and other people who routinely throw out the line that those who support the right to choose view abortion as routine birth control to be considered as casually as wearing a condom.  I doubt those people have ever known anyone who has had to go through that agonizing decision.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #235 on: September 02, 2008, 11:21:26 am »
I love everything about that movie.

And I'm not joking... I think Obama's seen it, and internalized it.  The move of staring into the front camera and saying "I welcome that debate", as well as several other touches... eerily similar.

So does that mean he's a good actor running for President as opposed to a bad one?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #236 on: September 02, 2008, 11:21:54 am »
Discussions with family members and other people who routinely throw out the line that those who support the right to choose view abortion as routine birth control to be considered as casually as wearing a condom.  I doubt those people have ever known anyone who has had to go through that agonizing decision.

Not to disparage your personal experience, but it seems like a stretch to go from your "family members and other people" to a "significant portion." I'm not saying you might not be right, but I think your generalization is without sound basis.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #237 on: September 02, 2008, 11:22:24 am »
So does that mean he's a good actor running for President as opposed to a bad one?

Has he ever co-starred with a chimp?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #238 on: September 02, 2008, 11:22:41 am »
I really think that a significant portion of the pro-life population believe that somebody who is pro-choice ("choice") will always abort as a matter of simple convenience, and could care less about the profound personal effect of such a choice on the person making it, regardless of what decision is made.

Just a wild guess here, but if you label yourself as either pro-life or pro-choice, you represent less than 50% of the population.  Most average Americans probably fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum on that topic. You'll always have the hard core believers on both sides that take their belief system to the extreme.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #239 on: September 02, 2008, 11:23:01 am »
So does that mean he's a good actor running for President as opposed to a bad one?

He's for damn sure a good speaker running for President.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #240 on: September 02, 2008, 11:45:44 am »
He's for damn sure a good speaker running for President.

That's right. It's hard to say whether Obama or Clinton (Bill, not Hillary) is the better speaker.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #241 on: September 02, 2008, 11:54:37 am »
That's right. It's hard to say whether Obama or Clinton (Bill, not Hillary) is the better speaker.

How many really good speach makers have been President in the last 50 years?  Kennedy, Reagan, Clinton?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #242 on: September 02, 2008, 12:02:05 pm »
That's right. It's hard to say whether Obama or Clinton (Bill, not Hillary) is the better speaker.

I'd have to lean towards Clinton in his prime. He seemed much better at going off topic and having fun, IMO. Obama is great at speeches, but seems less able to adjust his message and go off script.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #243 on: September 02, 2008, 12:34:02 pm »
This pick keeps getting better and better.  Palin was a member of the Alaskan Independence Party until 1996.  Their goal is a statewide vote on secession .  She recorded a video message that was shown at their convention this year.

Hold off for a second there. You got me interested so I looked some of this stuff up. Now, the rebuttal comes for the McCain-Palin camp, but there does to be some dipute to the report: http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/members-of-frin.html


Quote
A day after ABC News requested a response from Palin as to whether she was ever a member of the AIP, McCain campain spox Brian Rogers told ABC News that Clark's "allegations are false."

"Governor Palin has been a registered Republican since 1982," Rogers says, providing some voter registration documentation showing her to be a Republican. "As you know, if she changed her registration, there would have been some record of it. There isn’t."

Rogers says the McCain campaign provided ABC News with all the voter registration information that exists. Rogers says that Palin didn’t attend the AIP convention in 1994, "but she visited them when they had their convention in Wasilla in 2000 as a courtesy since she was mayor."

He would not comment as to why AIP officials are so convinced Palin was a member of their party. When asked if Palin ever identified herself as a member of the AIP, Rogers said, "No, she's a lifelong Republican."


The McCain website has published the voter registration info in pdf format. I will prvide a link if anyone really wants it:

http://www.johnmccain.com/images/mccainreport/Document.pdf


Link intentionally left unmasked so that no one would accidently click on a site they didn't want to visit.


Now, I am not trying to get back in the "debate", but I am trying to follow up on any interesting information prvided by people here. I like how pravata tries to present rumors as rumors and facts as facts. I hope I have done that here.

It's my estimation that every man ever got a statue made of 'em was one kinda sombitch or another.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #244 on: September 02, 2008, 12:34:30 pm »
It's a limited body, but the footage that I have seen of Kennedy speaking off the cuff is impressive.

The current campaign reminds me a little of "The Candidate."
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #245 on: September 02, 2008, 12:41:03 pm »
That's right. It's hard to say whether Obama or Clinton (Bill, not Hillary) is the better speaker.

That black Southern Baptist preacher style is amazingly effective.  I'm pretty sure you can say "let's go kill puppies" with that intonation and the crowd will cheer.  I find little to agree with him on, but nonetheless watching him speak is riveting.  Should he win, I'd at least be happy with his figurehead representation of us internationally.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #246 on: September 02, 2008, 12:49:26 pm »
That's right. It's hard to say whether Obama or Clinton (Bill, not Hillary) is the better speaker.

I'm for this old codger
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #247 on: September 02, 2008, 01:22:15 pm »
I think my new favorite fact is that when elected mayor Palin demanded that all top city officials resign as a test of loyalty.

http://idly.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/palin_loyalty_test.png

Pretty neat, huh? The best part is that the head of libraries was included as a key city official. They must do a lot of reading up in Wasilla over the long, dark winter months.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #248 on: September 02, 2008, 01:26:44 pm »
The current campaign reminds me a little of "The Candidate."

Virginia Governor Tim Kaine liked that movie so much he adopted the "Better Way" slogan for his campaign.  That movie included one of Peter Boyle's finer efforts.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #249 on: September 02, 2008, 01:29:48 pm »
I think my new favorite fact is that when elected mayor Palin demanded that all top city officials resign as a test of loyalty.

http://idly.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/palin_loyalty_test.png

Pretty neat, huh? The best part is that the head of libraries was included as a key city official. They must do a lot of reading up in Wasilla over the long, dark winter months.

Big fucking deal.  I've worked for politicians who did that.  It was normally a way to easily get rid of one person or shut down one office and make a lot of other hard-working honest people real nervous.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #250 on: September 02, 2008, 01:36:46 pm »
I think my new favorite fact is that when elected mayor Palin demanded that all top city officials resign as a test of loyalty.

http://idly.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/palin_loyalty_test.png

Pretty neat, huh? The best part is that the head of libraries was included as a key city official. They must do a lot of reading up in Wasilla over the long, dark winter months.

Allegedly, she asked the librarians how to get certain books banned from the library.   When questioned Mayor Palin replied that the question was merely "rhetorical".  Yeah, thas't rhetorical like.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #251 on: September 02, 2008, 01:48:46 pm »
She's going to sink his campaign.  I don't think there's a good way to remove her from the ticket.
Crazy Joe McCluskey was fucking nuts.  It's why they called him Crazy Joe.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #253 on: September 02, 2008, 01:52:00 pm »
She's going to sink his campaign.  I don't think there's a good way to remove her from the ticket.

Were you planning on voting for him before and are now not going to?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #254 on: September 02, 2008, 01:52:34 pm »
Allegedly, she asked the librarians how to get certain books banned from the library.

Condoms for Dummies?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #255 on: September 02, 2008, 01:56:24 pm »
She's going to sink his campaign.  I don't think there's a good way to remove her from the ticket.

If the national polls are to be believed that hasn't happened yet.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #256 on: September 02, 2008, 01:57:09 pm »
I wasn't voting for McCain, but I'm also not a democrat.  This woman's world view is out of whack with the majority of Americans.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #257 on: September 02, 2008, 02:00:22 pm »
 This woman's Most politicians' world views are out of whack with the majority of Americans.

FIFY
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #258 on: September 02, 2008, 02:01:26 pm »
Condoms for Dummies?

Probably the usual, Catcher in the Rye, To Kill a Mockingbird, Mice and Men.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #259 on: September 02, 2008, 02:03:15 pm »
Probably the usual, Catcher in the Rye, To Kill a Mockingbird, Mice and Men.

Don't forget Huck Finn.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #260 on: September 02, 2008, 02:03:32 pm »
Probably the usual, Catcher in the Rye, To Kill a Mockingbird, Mice and Men.

Also, "The Bill James Abstract."  And, some shit about the Cubs.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #261 on: September 02, 2008, 02:08:42 pm »
Also, "The Bill James Abstract."  And, some shit about the Cubs.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #262 on: September 02, 2008, 02:10:42 pm »
Probably the usual, Catcher in the Rye, To Kill a Mockingbird, Mice and Men.

She might need to make sure that she has an up-to-date version of the constitution, because the one she has defines marriage as being between a man and a woman.  Also, libraries often have internet access, which would allow visitors to go onto Wikipedia and see who wrote the Pledge of Allegiance, when, and what changes have been made over time.  2006 Alaskan Gubernatorial Candidate Questionaire.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #263 on: September 02, 2008, 02:10:47 pm »
Also, "The Bill James Abstract."  And, some shit about the Cubs.

I am unaware of anything about the cubs that isn't shit.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #264 on: September 02, 2008, 02:11:48 pm »
I am unaware of anything about the cubs that isn't shit.

Them losing.  Them losing isn't shit.
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« Reply #265 on: September 02, 2008, 02:16:08 pm »
Them losing.  Them losing isn't shit.

Oh, no.  They're involved, so it's shit.  Too they trot out the lovable loser bullshit when they lose.  EVERYTHING they touch is shit.  Even cub shit is shittier than non-cub shit.  When you look up shit in the dictionary you don't see cub shit because it's worse than standard shit.
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« Reply #266 on: September 02, 2008, 02:18:20 pm »
She might need to make sure that she has an up-to-date version of the constitution, because the one she has defines marriage as being between a man and a woman.  Also, libraries often have internet access, which would allow visitors to go onto Wikipedia and see who wrote the Pledge of Allegiance, when, and what changes have been made over time.  2006 Alaskan Gubernatorial Candidate Questionaire.

That's just scary.
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

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« Reply #267 on: September 02, 2008, 02:18:35 pm »
Oh, no.  They're involved, so it's shit.  Too they trot out the lovable loser bullshit when they lose.  EVERYTHING they touch is shit.  Even cub shit is shittier than non-cub shit.  When you look up shit in the dictionary you don't see cub shit because it's worse than standard shit.

Lovable?
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« Reply #268 on: September 02, 2008, 02:20:09 pm »
That's just scary.

If she believes it, it's scary.  If not, she was pandering.  She doesn't strike me as an ignorant person...
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #269 on: September 02, 2008, 02:24:30 pm »
She might need to make sure that she has an up-to-date version of the constitution, because the one she has defines marriage as being between a man and a woman.  Also, libraries often have internet access, which would allow visitors to go onto Wikipedia and see who wrote the Pledge of Allegiance, when, and what changes have been made over time.  2006 Alaskan Gubernatorial Candidate Questionaire.

I think she's referring to the Alaskan constitution.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #270 on: September 02, 2008, 02:25:53 pm »
She might need to make sure that she has an up-to-date version of the constitution, because the one she has defines marriage as being between a man and a woman.  Also, libraries often have internet access, which would allow visitors to go onto Wikipedia and see who wrote the Pledge of Allegiance, when, and what changes have been made over time.  2006 Alaskan Gubernatorial Candidate Questionaire.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #271 on: September 02, 2008, 02:29:31 pm »
Sonofabitch.  Did someone get a card to go with the gift-wrapped present?

How is it a present?  Palin was picked to energize the right-wing base.  That questionnaire is the base's bread and butter.
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #272 on: September 02, 2008, 02:32:03 pm »
How is it a present?  Palin was picked to energize the right-wing base.  That questionnaire is the base's bread and butter.

If her daughter's pregnancy can be spun that it makes her more like one of us (and one of us is who we want in the White House) then anything is possible.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #273 on: September 02, 2008, 02:35:13 pm »
She's going to sink his campaign.  I don't think there's a good way to remove her from the ticket.

I wouldn't rush to any conclusions.  So far, the accusations and attacks on her, besides her "credentials" for VP, have been relatively baseless.  To the contrary, I would caution anyone firmly behind Obama that this attack by the media, bloggers, et al could cast a negative view on his campaign by the swing voters.

From what I've read and noticed, the group of swing voters can most commonly be grouped under key tendencies: taking issue with overly negative campaign tactics and taking exception when the media is perceived to be showing a clear bias.

I can't say whether that's happened yet but I would be very concerned about the tone and frequency of the comments directed towards Palin.  So far it has been issues of little relevance and little has proved to be accurate.  If it continues to be unfounded people will eventually assume a biased media agenda.   I give credit to Obama for distancing himself from these articles.  However, the association is likely perceived and will have little to do with fact (i.e. it won't matter if Obama had anything to do with it).  

I realize most people look at Swiftboat Vets as a negative attack campaign, and by non-partisan guidelines I agree.  But it directly attacked a claim Kerry made about his service and therefor stuck.  The teenage pregnancy, the young son with Downs Syndrome, pro-life, etc..  none of that speaks towared a hypocrisy or contradicts her stated values.  To the contrary, dealing with those life events can be used to further illustrate her resilient character and strength of convictions.  Granted, it's spin-doctoring but the gamble is which spin is going to strike a chord with those critical swing voters.  

I'm looking to see how she navigates these attacks and see how she does in any potential VP debates.  She could be the Obama/Biden tickets worst nightmare:  A competent republican female, who can relate to suburban professional women and housewives alike.  

Just my thoughts... I'm spectating at this point.  I'm leaning toward McCain, for full disclosure, but Palin was a huge surprise.  I knew/know nothing about her other than what's been published.  I hope for at least two VP debates.

To change gears, I'd really like to understand how providing universal healthcare is going to dramatically reverse the sky-rocketing cost of healthcare.  I have top-notch coverage and pay out the nose in both premiums and co-insurance payments.  I'm speculating that most think giving gov't subsidized insurance to those who cannot afford their own, or don't have access thru their employer, will eventually lower costs for the rest of us.  I don't believe that will be the case, personally.  

I have a slightly different perspective as I am very familiar with the Community Health Care Clinic system in place, which provides healthcare at low cost, if not free, to those who do not have insurance.  Their greatest challenge is to convince members of the community to take advantage of their services, preferrably in a preventative manner.  I'd also like to emphasize preventative care because it is proven to reduce healthcare costs.  The sad fact is, those who don't have insurance really don't take advantage of the medical care, free or otherwise, that is available until it's an emergency.  

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #274 on: September 02, 2008, 02:38:59 pm »
I wasn't voting for McCain, but I'm also not a democrat.  This woman's world view is out of whack with the majority of Americans.

I didn't ask whether you're a Democrat. I asked whether you were going to vote for McCain before, and whether you will now. If you weren't going to anyway, why do you care? It just made your decision even easier, right?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #275 on: September 02, 2008, 02:39:56 pm »
Sonofabitch.  Did someone get a card to go with the gift-wrapped present?

Andrea Mitchell apparently has reported on MSNBC (salt-pinched, but Andrea is pretty neutral) that the McCain campaign commenced an emergency, deep-vetting process on Palin...yesterday.  I don't expect that they'll find anything that hasn't shown up already, but, for me, the issue isn't Palin as running mate, it's the picking of Palin as running mate.  It's smacks heavily of pandering, desperation, lack of adherence to principles and hypocrisy...on the part of the McCain campaign.

FWIW, Sarah Palin seems to be a decent person (for a politician) who practices what she preaches and therefore likely believes in the positions she takes (albeit with some amusing misstatements about marriage definitions and pledges).  What McCain has done is to make a decision based solely on political imperatives, which is an accusation he has thrown at Obama repeatedly.  By pandering to the base of his party, he has undercut much of his own message.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #276 on: September 02, 2008, 02:40:06 pm »
I wouldn't rush to any conclusions.  So far, the accusations and attacks on her, besides her "credentials" for VP, have been relatively baseless.  To the contrary, I would caution anyone firmly behind Obama that this attack by the media, bloggers, et al could cast a negative view on his campaign by the swing voters.

From what I've read and noticed, the group of swing voters can most commonly be grouped under key tendencies: taking issue with overly negative campaign tactics and taking exception when the media is perceived to be showing a clear bias.

I can't say whether that's happened yet but I would be very concerned about the tone and frequency of the comments directed towards Palin.  So far it has been issues of little relevance and little has proved to be accurate.  If it continues to be unfounded people will eventually assume a biased media agenda.   I give credit to Obama for distancing himself from these articles.  However, the association is likely perceived and will have little to do with fact (i.e. it won't matter if Obama had anything to do with it).  

I realize most people look at Swiftboat Vets as a negative attack campaign, and by non-partisan guidelines I agree.  But it directly attacked a claim Kerry made about his service and therefor stuck.  The teenage pregnancy, the young son with Downs Syndrome, pro-life, etc..  none of that speaks towared a hypocrisy or contradicts her stated values.  To the contrary, dealing with those life events can be used to further illustrate her resilient character and strength of convictions.  Granted, it's spin-doctoring but the gamble is which spin is going to strike a chord with those critical swing voters.  

I'm looking to see how she navigates these attacks and see how she does in any potential VP debates.  She could be the Obama/Biden tickets worst nightmare:  A competent republican female, who can relate to suburban professional women and housewives alike.  

Just my thoughts... I'm spectating at this point.  I'm leaning toward McCain, for full disclosure, but Palin was a huge surprise.  I knew/know nothing about her other than what's been published.  I hope for at least two VP debates.

To change gears, I'd really like to understand how providing universal healthcare is going to dramatically reverse the sky-rocketing cost of healthcare.  I have top-notch coverage and pay out the nose in both premiums and co-insurance payments.  I'm speculating that most think giving gov't subsidized insurance to those who cannot afford their own, or don't have access thru their employer, will eventually lower costs for the rest of us.  I don't believe that will be the case, personally.  

I have a slightly different perspective as I am very familiar with the Community Health Care Clinic system in place, which provides healthcare at low cost, if not free, to those who do not have insurance.  Their greatest challenge is to convince members of the community to take advantage of their services, preferrably in a preventative manner.  I'd also like to emphasize preventative care because it is proven to reduce healthcare costs.  The sad fact is, those who don't have insurance really don't take advantage of the medical care, free or otherwise, that is available until it's an emergency.  



Waste of words. He wasn't going to vote for McCain anyway, so he's just bitching about something that he didn't care about in any event.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #277 on: September 02, 2008, 02:40:40 pm »
If her daughter's pregnancy can be spun that it makes her more like one of us (and one of us is who we want in the White House) then anything is possible.

To summarize, this is what I was trying to state, only less succinctly.  In other words, sort of a "Mrs. Smith Goes to Washington"...
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #278 on: September 02, 2008, 02:42:33 pm »
 By pandering to the base of his party, he has undercut much of his own message.

See that sentence - that sentence right there?  Exactly why McCain has no chance of getting my vote.
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #279 on: September 02, 2008, 02:47:39 pm »
See that sentence - that sentence right there?  Exactly why McCain has no chance of getting my vote.

I believe it was during one of the campaign's media conference calls when a spokesman for the McCain campaign asserted that John McCain doesn't speak for the McCain campaign.  See make up, stuff you can't.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 02:50:19 pm by Limey »
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #280 on: September 02, 2008, 02:48:24 pm »
Goin' for a bus ride.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #281 on: September 02, 2008, 02:48:44 pm »
How is it a present?  Palin was picked to energize the right-wing base.  That questionnaire is the base's bread and butter.

I agree and fully appreciate the strategy.  The problem as I see it is that association with Bush's perceived incompetence has become difficult for some Republicans to continue to brush off.  Appeal to the right-wing base; they've carried their share of the party for years and deserve their say.  But turning off those that support the party for reasons other than its social agenda with a string of indefensible policies will ultimately tank the general election.   Taking the good with the bad has its limits.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #282 on: September 02, 2008, 02:50:23 pm »
To summarize, this is what I was trying to state, only less succinctly.  In other words, sort of a "Mrs. Smith Goes to Washington"...

Yes, a book banning, loyalty oath administering, brother in law firing, historically challenged, $22 million debt leaving, earmark grubbing, Mr Jefferson Smith.  Exactly like that.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #283 on: September 02, 2008, 02:52:17 pm »
See that sentence - that sentence right there?  Exactly why McCain has no chance of getting my vote.

Pandering?  In politics?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #284 on: September 02, 2008, 02:52:37 pm »

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #285 on: September 02, 2008, 02:54:06 pm »
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I'm living rent-free in the back of your head."

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #286 on: September 02, 2008, 02:54:29 pm »
Andrea Mitchell apparently has reported on MSNBC (salt-pinched, but Andrea is pretty neutral) that the McCain campaign commenced an emergency, deep-vetting process on Palin...yesterday.  I don't expect that they'll find anything that hasn't shown up already, but, for me, the issue isn't Palin as running mate, it's the picking of Palin as running mate.  It's smacks heavily of pandering, desperation, lack of adherence to principles and hypocrisy...on the part of the McCain campaign.

FWIW, Sarah Palin seems to be a decent person (for a politician) who practices what she preaches and therefore likely believes in the positions she takes (albeit with some amusing misstatements about marriage definitions and pledges).  What McCain has done is to make a decision based solely on political imperatives, which is an accusation he has thrown at Obama repeatedly.  By pandering to the base of his party, he has undercut much of his own message.

The McCain campaign is faced with an extremely difficult situation for a Republican candidate due to all kinds of factors, self-inflicted or not. They gambled with a risky running mate selection that may appeal to constituencies that McCain needs to win the election. Do you think they would be doing better right now had McCain put Mitt Romney on the ticket? I doubt it.

In any event, choosing a running mate always involves political calculations. This is why Obama, running on a platform of "change," selected as his running mate a consummate Washington insider and traditional big-government liberal who's been in the Senate since the Nixon administration. This was a political calculation to shore up Obama's thin resume, despite his campaign's insistence that giving a couple of speeches in the Senate and overseas constitutes foreign policy "experience." In other words, they made a move designed to address weakness, just like McCain did.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #287 on: September 02, 2008, 02:55:57 pm »
I agree and fully appreciate the strategy.  The problem as I see it is that association with Bush's perceived incompetence has become difficult for some Republicans to continue to brush off.  Appeal to the right-wing base; they've carried their share of the party for years and deserve their say.  But turning off those that support the party for reasons other than its social agenda with a string of indefensible policies will ultimately tank the general election.   Taking the good with the bad has its limits.

Meanwhile, Obama has been shuffling one foot ever so carefully towards the centre.  Until last Thursday when he planted it there with authority.  It's a calculated move that will piss off some of his party (hard to call Democrats a "base" as their agendae all over the place), but is intended to solidify his appeal with moderates, some independents and disaffected conservatives just the other side of the middle.
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« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 02:58:18 pm by austro »
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #289 on: September 02, 2008, 02:57:27 pm »
And, gone.

You decide on the coincidence - looks like someone scrubbed her Wikipedia page shortly before her nomination was announced.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #290 on: September 02, 2008, 02:57:40 pm »
Andrea Mitchell apparently has reported on MSNBC (salt-pinched, but Andrea is pretty neutral)

[unimportant nit]She's actually quite liberal.[/unimportant nit]
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #291 on: September 02, 2008, 02:58:58 pm »
You decide on the coincidence - looks like someone scrubbed her Wikipedia page shortly before her nomination was announced.

Hmm.  JackAstro has an awful lot of nicknames.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #292 on: September 02, 2008, 02:59:02 pm »
I believe it was during one of the campaign's media conference calls when a spokesman for the McCain campaign asserted that John McCain doesn't speak for the McCain campaign.  See make up, stuff you can't.

Not exactly what he said.  That's what the unbiased reporter from the Washington Post said.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #293 on: September 02, 2008, 03:00:45 pm »
[unimportant nit]She's actually quite liberal.[/unimportant nit]

In fairness, appearing with Olbermann throws off the scale for everybody.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #294 on: September 02, 2008, 03:01:05 pm »
[unimportant nit]She's actually quite liberal.[/unimportant nit]

MSNBC?  Surely, you jest.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #295 on: September 02, 2008, 03:04:07 pm »
MSNBC?  Surely, you jest.

And to close the Limey loop, she appeared on Bill O'Reilly's show and claimed the major networks, herself, and Chris Matthews are not liberal.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #296 on: September 02, 2008, 03:04:16 pm »
The McCain campaign is faced with an extremely difficult situation for a Republican candidate due to all kinds of factors, self-inflicted or not. They gambled with a risky running mate selection that may appeal to constituencies that McCain needs to win the election. Do you think they would be doing better right now had McCain put Mitt Romney on the ticket? I doubt it.

In any event, choosing a running mate always involves political calculations. This is why Obama, running on a platform of "change," selected as his running mate a consummate Washington insider and traditional big-government liberal who's been in the Senate since the Nixon administration. This was a political calculation to shore up Obama's thin resume, despite his campaign's insistence that giving a couple of speeches in the Senate and overseas constitutes foreign policy "experience." In other words, they made a move designed to address weakness, just like McCain did.


Ignoring the talking points in there, Obama's pick was smart for the reasons you cite, with the added benefit of not changing his policy positions.  To paraphrase Kerry's refrain from his convention speech last week, McCain the candidate is now totally unrecognisable from McCain the "Maverick" Senator.  If Obama does his homework, he can shred McCain in the debates by using nothing more than his own words against him.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #297 on: September 02, 2008, 03:12:24 pm »
See that sentence - that sentence right there?  Exactly why McCain has no chance of getting my vote.
Ditto.  And yet ... perversely and considering the options ... I hope he wins.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #298 on: September 02, 2008, 03:14:57 pm »
Ignoring the talking points in there, Obama's pick was smart for the reasons you cite, with the added benefit of not changing his policy positions.  To paraphrase Kerry's refrain from his convention speech last week, McCain the candidate is now totally unrecognisable from McCain the "Maverick" Senator.  If Obama does his homework, he can shred McCain in the debates by using nothing more than his own words against him.

Perhaps the reason that Obama and Biden are on the same page policy-wise has to do with the fact that Obama's not really about change at all. He's about bringing back the '60s and '70s. So I suppose to the extent that Obama's entire theme of change for his campaign is a sham, yes, you're right, Biden fits in quite nicely.

As for McCain and Palin, the biggest meaningful policy difference between them is whether to drill in ANWR. We'll see if McCain's position shifts on that now that he's added Palin to the ticket. If he does, so much the better, because I think he's been wrong to oppose ANWR drilling. Come to think of it, even Obama and the rest of the Democrats are beginning to grasp that they're on the wrong side of expanded drilling too.

The only time the Democrats and their media cheerleaders ever actually gave a damn about McCain being a "maverick" is when he thumbed his nose at Republicans and supported the Democratic line on certain issues, such as campaign-finance reform, ending judicial filibusters in the Senate and opposing the Bush tax cuts. In other words, when he acts like Democrat, he's a brave independent. When he doesn't, he catches hell.

Contrast this to how the Democrats have treated Joe Lieberman when he broke with them on a matter of principle. He was practically run out of the party.

By the way, I'm not sure what talking points you're referring to. I write my own material.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #299 on: September 02, 2008, 03:15:04 pm »
Place a wager on Palin being withdrawn.  Current odds are 12%
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #300 on: September 02, 2008, 03:20:10 pm »
 If Obama does his homework...

That might be the problem. From what I have seen, Biden and Palin seem to be relatively quick in debates, but Biden will probably come out ahead in the end. McCain will have to give up if he can never get into the debates with Obama. Obama is correctly delaying that as long as possible. As long as Obama can just keep it to speeches, he will stay ahead.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #301 on: September 02, 2008, 03:21:39 pm »
Place a wager on Palin being withdrawn.  Current odds are 12%

Those odds seem way high. Unless it comes out that she's an axe-murderer, the McCain campaign would look simply awful for dropping her from the ticket. They don't get a do-over like Bush did with Harriet Meyers.

Of course, if the media were as anxious to dig around Chicago the last 18 months as they have been around Alaska the last 96 hours, we'd probably be finding out a lot more unseemly stuff about the candidate at the top of the ticket in the other party. Funny how that works, ain't it?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #302 on: September 02, 2008, 03:24:13 pm »
Of course, if the media were as anxious to dig around Chicago the last 18 months as they have been around Alaska the last 96 hours, we'd probably be finding out a lot more unseemly stuff about the candidate at the top of the ticket in the other party. Funny how that works, ain't it?

You honestly believe that, don't you?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #303 on: September 02, 2008, 03:24:21 pm »
Those odds seem way high. Unless it comes out that she's an axe-murderer, the McCain campaign would look simply awful for dropping her from the ticket. They don't get a do-over like Bush did with Harriet Meyers.

Of course, if the media were as anxious to dig around Chicago the last 18 months as they have been around Alaska the last 96 hours, we'd probably be finding out a lot more unseemly stuff about the candidate at the top of the ticket in the other party. Funny how that works, ain't it?


Right.  No one has ever looked into who this "Barack Obama" character is.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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« Reply #304 on: September 02, 2008, 03:25:33 pm »
The only time the Democrats and their media cheerleaders ever actually gave a damn about McCain being a "maverick" is when he thumbed his nose at Republicans and supported the Democratic line on certain issues, such as campaign-finance reform, ending judicial filibusters in the Senate and opposing the Bush tax cuts. In other words, when he acts like Democrat, he's a brave independent. When he doesn't, he catches hell.

OK, so what about when he does both?

Opposing the Bush tax cuts as irresponsible, or promising to extend them?
Or opposing the moratorium on offshore drilling before supporting it?
Or supporting making adoption as straightforward as possible, but saying that an orphanage is preferable to adoption by a gay couple?
Or stating that he would not seek to overturn Roe, then stating that he would?

McCain 2000 was an admirable, centrist politician.  McCain 2008... not so much.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #305 on: September 02, 2008, 03:25:44 pm »
The only time the Democrats and their media cheerleaders ever actually gave a damn about McCain being a "maverick" is when he thumbed his nose at Republicans and supported the Democratic line on certain issues, such as campaign-finance reform, ending judicial filibusters in the Senate and opposing the Bush tax cuts. In other words, when he acts like Democrat, he's a brave independent. When he doesn't, he catches hell.

MCain has reversed on almost all those positions.  His fame and cache as a politician was based in a large part on the fact that he did break ranks with the party when he felt he needed to.  Now he needs the party's support, and he's abandoned his principled positions for the party line.  That makes him vulnerable to attacks from an opponent who you clearly have no time for, but one who cannot be accused of the same.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #306 on: September 02, 2008, 03:26:28 pm »
That might be the problem. From what I have seen, Biden and Palin seem to be relatively quick in debates, but Biden will probably come out ahead in the end. McCain will have to give up if he can never get into the debates with Obama. Obama is correctly delaying that as long as possible. As long as Obama can just keep it to speeches, he will stay ahead.

Aren't the debates (2 presidential, 1 VP) scheduled already?

My mistake: 2 presidential debates, plus a town hall.
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« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 03:31:50 pm by MusicMan »
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #307 on: September 02, 2008, 03:27:35 pm »
Of course, if the media were as anxious to dig around Chicago the last 18 months as they have been around Alaska the last 96 hours, we'd probably be finding out a lot more unseemly stuff about the candidate at the top of the ticket in the other party. Funny how that works, ain't it?

Do you think the Clintons were just sitting on their hands for the first 12 months of that time?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #308 on: September 02, 2008, 03:28:31 pm »
Those odds seem way high. Unless it comes out that she's an axe-murderer, the McCain campaign would look simply awful for dropping her from the ticket. They don't get a do-over like Bush did with Harriet Meyers.

Of course, if the media were as anxious to dig around Chicago the last 18 months as they have been around Alaska the last 96 hours, we'd probably be finding out a lot more unseemly stuff about the candidate at the top of the ticket in the other party. Funny how that works, ain't it?

It's easier just to call him a muslim terrorist.

I've never understood how the whole "media as great liberal cheerleading mouthpiece" viewpoint gained such traction in this country but it is one of the greatest wool-pulling jobs in a long time.  Right up there with making gay marriage an "issue."
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #309 on: September 02, 2008, 03:28:41 pm »
That might be the problem. From what I have seen, Biden and Palin seem to be relatively quick in debates, but Biden will probably come out ahead in the end. McCain will have to give up if he can never get into the debates with Obama. Obama is correctly delaying that as long as possible. As long as Obama can just keep it to speeches, he will stay ahead.

Biden doesn't have to go after Palin in the VP debate*.  Debating is considered Obama's weakness, hence the need for him to do his homework.  McCain claims to prefer open forum, town hall-type settings, but has had a run of trouble with them this year as he's been very gaffe-prone when talking off the cuff.

ETA: * He can go after McCain and leave Palin alone.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 03:33:06 pm by Limey »
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #310 on: September 02, 2008, 03:29:47 pm »
Aren't the debates (2 presidential, 1 VP) scheduled already?

I think he's referring to McCain's proposed weekly joint town hall meetings across the country.
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« Reply #311 on: September 02, 2008, 03:31:30 pm »
Debating is considered Obama's weakness, hence the need for him to do his homework.  McCain claims to prefer open forum, town hall-type settings, but has had a run of trouble with them this year as he's been very gaffe-prone when talking off the cuff.

I think that's backwards.
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« Reply #312 on: September 02, 2008, 03:32:04 pm »
It's easier just to call him a muslim terrorist.

I've never understood how the whole "media as great liberal cheerleading mouthpiece" viewpoint gained such traction in this country but it is one of the greatest wool-pulling jobs in a long time.  Right up there with making gay marriage an "issue."


If it's said often enough and in as many venues as possible, it just becomes reality because it's reinforcing something people have heard before.
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« Reply #313 on: September 02, 2008, 03:33:54 pm »
You honestly believe that, don't you?

I believe there are a great many unanswered questions. My impression is that he's a fundamentally decent guy. My concern is that Democratic candidates rising through the machine in Illinois are hard-pressed to make it big without facing certain compromises. It'd be great to know he's as squeaky clean as your question implies that you think he is.

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« Reply #314 on: September 02, 2008, 03:34:26 pm »
I think that's backwards.

No, McCain seems more comfortable talking to people.  Obama comes off as a lecturer.  Both Obama and Biden have the unfortunate problem that they try to explain stuff.  Palin is apparently good with a quip and deflecting followup questions. 

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #315 on: September 02, 2008, 03:34:51 pm »
I think that's backwards.

Let me introduce you to this thing called YouTube...
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #316 on: September 02, 2008, 03:35:21 pm »

Right.  No one has ever looked into who this "Barack Obama" character is.

Precisely. That's exactly what I wrote.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #317 on: September 02, 2008, 03:36:58 pm »
Did you recently awake from a coma?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #318 on: September 02, 2008, 03:37:10 pm »
I believe there are a great many unanswered questions. My impression is that he's a fundamentally decent guy. My concern is that Democratic candidates rising through the machine in Illinois are hard-pressed to make it big without facing certain compromises. It'd be great to know he's as squeaky clean as your question implies that you think he is.

Skepticism is healthy when it's applied equally.  Yours seems to be focused in one direction.
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« Reply #319 on: September 02, 2008, 03:37:39 pm »
Let me introduce you to this thing called YouTube...

I was referring only to the last part of your statement.  In that regard I only recall an article I read that Obama had difficulty in that town hall meeting with the fundamentalist preacher.  The article implied McCain did very well.  Too following that meeting the poll numbers between Obama and McCain closed to even.  If that is wrong reporting or if true an anomoly, fine.
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« Reply #320 on: September 02, 2008, 03:37:47 pm »
Precisely. That's exactly what I wrote.

Just with a broken sarc-meter.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #321 on: September 02, 2008, 03:37:58 pm »
OK, so what about when he does both?

Opposing the Bush tax cuts as irresponsible, or promising to extend them?
Or opposing the moratorium on offshore drilling before supporting it?
Or supporting making adoption as straightforward as possible, but saying that an orphanage is preferable to adoption by a gay couple?
Or stating that he would not seek to overturn Roe, then stating that he would?

McCain 2000 was an admirable, centrist politician.  McCain 2008... not so much.


Which is why he wasn't exactly a consensus candidates for Republicans. But he's the candidate now, and running against Obama, he's certainly the preferable choice for millions of voters.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #322 on: September 02, 2008, 03:38:21 pm »
Skepticism is healthy when it's applied equally.  Yours seems to be focused in one direction.

In fairness, McCain's personal failings are a pretty well-known quantity.
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« Reply #323 on: September 02, 2008, 03:39:33 pm »
Which is why he wasn't exactly a consensus candidates for Republicans. But he's the candidate now, and running against Obama, he's certainly the preferable choice for millions of voters.

And that's fine.  My point is that they are all reasons why he's not a preferable choice for me.
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« Reply #324 on: September 02, 2008, 03:39:41 pm »

McCain 2000 was an admirable, centrist politician.  McCain 2008... not so much.


He wasn't electable nationally with those positions.  A politician is responsible for representing the people that elect him and getting elected is included in those responsibilities.  The people of Arizona have different priorites than those of the US in general.  If he wants the top job, he has to conform to the people's will, or else the only politicians that will be eligible for the Presidency are those coming from states that happen to have a similar cross section as the country at that time.  
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #325 on: September 02, 2008, 03:40:59 pm »
I believe there are a great many unanswered questions. My impression is that he's a fundamentally decent guy. My concern is that Democratic candidates rising through the machine in Illinois are hard-pressed to make it big without facing certain compromises. It'd be great to know he's as squeaky clean as your question implies that you think he is.

I was referring more to your inference of a liberally-biased media. You really think that the media as a whole hasn't dug into every aspect of Obama's past?
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« Reply #326 on: September 02, 2008, 03:42:33 pm »
MCain has reversed on almost all those positions.  His fame and cache as a politician was based in a large part on the fact that he did break ranks with the party when he felt he needed to.  Now he needs the party's support, and he's abandoned his principled positions for the party line.  That makes him vulnerable to attacks from an opponent who you clearly have no time for, but one who cannot be accused of the same.

No, his fame and cache was based on taking certain liberal positions and poking his own party in the eye. Which is why he's now got to do some reassuring to motivate the voters that he needs to win to turn out for him. I've got no problem with Obama attacking McCain for flip-flopping. That's totally fair game, and he'll have to live with it. But I doubt he'd have any chance, as opposed to a slim chance, if he continued to tell a large portion of his base to piss up a rope.

Obama hasn't made as many changes as McCain, but even he's going to find it hard to stick to all his prior positions, from withdrawing (oops, excuse me, redeploying) the troops from Iraq expeditiously to standing against drilling no way, now how. This is what politicians do, unfortunately or not.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #327 on: September 02, 2008, 03:44:33 pm »
I was referring more to your inference of a liberally-biased media. You really think that the media as a whole hasn't dug into every aspect of Obama's past?

God, isn't this painfully obvious to everyone by now?  The media is biased.  It is not conservative or liberal biased.  It is dollar biased, plain and simple.  If someone can dig up a relatively credible story about McCain or Obama or Biden or Palin that would get them viewers, it would be on the air in a heartbeat.  I promise, promise, PROMISE you that there are people digging around Chicago right now and they've been doing so since probably 2004.
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« Reply #328 on: September 02, 2008, 03:44:48 pm »
And that's fine.  My point is that they are all reasons why he's not a preferable choice for me.

Fair enough. The other ticket certainly provides a viable alternative to those positions.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #329 on: September 02, 2008, 03:45:11 pm »
God, isn't this painfully obvious to everyone by now?  The media is biased.  It is not conservative or liberal biased.  It is dollar biased, plain and simple.  If someone can dig up a relatively credible story about McCain or Obama or Biden or Palin that would get them viewers, it would be on the air in a heartbeat.  I promise, promise, PROMISE you that there are people digging around Chicago right now and they've been doing so since probably 2004.

My point.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #330 on: September 02, 2008, 03:46:55 pm »
I was referring more to your inference of a liberally-biased media. You really think that the media as a whole hasn't dug into every aspect of Obama's past?

There are lots of things we still don't know about Obama's background in Chicago. Just like the John Edwards story seemed to sit on the backburner for a very long time. On the latter point, don't take my word for it, ask the Clinton campaign what they think about the fact that it didn't get reported on very quickly.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #331 on: September 02, 2008, 03:48:16 pm »
I was referring only to the last part of your statement.  In that regard I only recall an article I read that Obama had difficulty in that town hall meeting with the fundamentalist preacher.  The article implied McCain did very well.  Too following that meeting the poll numbers between Obama and McCain closed to even.  If that is wrong reporting or if true an anomoly, fine.

That was more of a one-on-one Q&A than a town hall meeting, but McCain did do better by most reports.  He also went second and had the opportunity to get advance warning of the questions.  He claimed he didn't, but he also claimed in the Q&A that he'd been in the pre-arranged communication lock-down room (or whatever they called it) during Obama's session, when he hadn't.

Regardless, these are both politicians who should be pretty good at debating by now.  Obama is considered "weak" in this area, probably in the same way that the Great Britain 4x100m Freestyle relay team was considered weak (they came 8th out of 8 in the final).  Lately, McCain has been making mistakes when talking off the cuff, while the knock on Obama (I believe) is that he doesn't do well at getting his point across in short soundbites.  The proof of this pudding will come in a few weeks when the debates start.
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« Reply #332 on: September 02, 2008, 03:48:28 pm »
That's from American President.  And that is a great speech "...He is interested in two things and two things only ... making you afraid of it and telling you whose to blame for it ... "

Went back and found the YouTube of this

If it's not my favorite movie speech, it's certainly on the short list.
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« Reply #333 on: September 02, 2008, 03:49:04 pm »
I promise, promise, PROMISE you that there are people digging around Chicago right now and they've been doing so since probably 2004.

My memory of Chicago politics when I lived there was that no one outside the political circle will ever really know what's going on inside Chicago politics, extreme (read lawbreaking) examples not withstanding, unless they want you to.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #334 on: September 02, 2008, 03:49:27 pm »
Perhaps the reason that Obama and Biden are on the same page policy-wise has to do with the fact that Obama's not really about change at all. He's about bringing back the '60s and '70s. So I suppose to the extent that Obama's entire theme of change for his campaign is a sham, yes, you're right, Biden fits in quite nicely. etc etc

Were you planning to vote for Obama?
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« Reply #335 on: September 02, 2008, 03:49:40 pm »
My point.

My response was meant more at the general attitude that the MSM is somehow liberally biased at the peril of their wallets, not your post.
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« Reply #336 on: September 02, 2008, 03:53:48 pm »
Were you planning to vote for Obama?

Absolutely.

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« Reply #337 on: September 02, 2008, 03:53:51 pm »
No, his fame and cache was based on taking certain liberal positions and poking his own party in the eye. Which is why he's now got to do some reassuring to motivate the voters that he needs to win to turn out for him. I've got no problem with Obama attacking McCain for flip-flopping. That's totally fair game, and he'll have to live with it. But I doubt he'd have any chance, as opposed to a slim chance, if he continued to tell a large portion of his base to piss up a rope.

Obama hasn't made as many changes as McCain, but even he's going to find it hard to stick to all his prior positions, from withdrawing (oops, excuse me, redeploying) the troops from Iraq expeditiously to standing against drilling no way, now how. This is what politicians do, unfortunately or not.

You do realise that the Bush Adminstration is weeks away from agreeing a timtable for withdrawal from Iraq, right?
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« Reply #338 on: September 02, 2008, 03:54:54 pm »
My response was meant more at the general attitude that the MSM is somehow liberally biased at the peril of their wallets, not your post.

Do you think Dan Rather's downfall was somehow predicated on the notion that CBS would profit from it, or do you think Rather and his team got reckless because of their political fews and screwed up?

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« Reply #339 on: September 02, 2008, 03:55:09 pm »
There are lots of things we still don't know about Obama's background in Chicago. Just like the John Edwards story seemed to sit on the backburner for a very long time. On the latter point, don't take my word for it, ask the Clinton campaign what they think about the fact that it didn't get reported on very quickly.

Do you think that Edwards' extra-marital affair is fair game in politics?
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« Reply #340 on: September 02, 2008, 03:57:24 pm »
You do realise that the Bush Adminstration is weeks away from agreeing a timtable for withdrawal from Iraq, right?

Yes. And the FT comparing that to an unconditional immediate withdrawal of the kind Obama proposed to appeal to the anti-war crowd is his party is mendacious. Obama wanted the troops out of there before the surge began.

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« Reply #341 on: September 02, 2008, 03:58:49 pm »
Do you think Dan Rather's downfall was somehow predicated on the notion that CBS would profit from it, or do you think Rather and his team got reckless because of their political fews and screwed up?

I think Rather got excited about a blockbuster story and rushed it to air before it'd been fully vetted in order to scoop the opposition, garner ratings and make his bosses money.
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« Reply #342 on: September 02, 2008, 03:59:29 pm »
Do you think that Edwards' extra-marital affair is fair game in politics?

Nope, and I don't think that any of his opponents would have been well served attacking him on it. The voters can draw their own conclusions on that kind of thing.

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« Reply #343 on: September 02, 2008, 03:59:32 pm »
Do you think Dan Rather's downfall was somehow predicated on the notion that CBS would profit from it, or do you think Rather and his team got reckless because of their political fews and screwed up?

Rather was fired because CBS didn't want to feed the myth that they were liberally biased.  It was in their financial interest to do so.

Do you think CBS ran that piece to help out Kerry and the Dems, or do you think they ran that piece because it made them money?
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« Reply #344 on: September 02, 2008, 04:00:23 pm »
No, McCain seems more comfortable talking to people.  Obama comes off as a lecturer.  Both Obama and Biden have the unfortunate problem that they try to explain stuff.  Palin is apparently good with a quip and deflecting followup questions. 

That is a good way to put it. Biden seems to get carried away, sometimes drifting away from the point he is trying to make. Obama seems to want to limit what exactly he has to answer, sometimes seeming to only want to discuss things he is prepared for. Palin comes off as more down-to-earth, Bill-Clinton-esque in her answers/diversions. McCain is likely to say whatever is on his mind and seem sincere.

I am not saying any of that is a positive or negative way, believe it or not. I think that is the way they have come across.

I am much like Biden in the way I talk, causing my wife to cut me short all the time. I think I am explaining, but she sees I am giving too much information.

Obama may want to only talk about what he has studied for. I like to say "I don't know, but I will try and find out" quite often, but that may seem to be elusive in the wrong situations.

I am not big on talkers like Palin that can divert the question at a whim. It makes for nice soundbites, but you(I) come away still wanting an answer.

McCain does have a way of presenting a position in any situation fairly smoothly, but as sincere as it seems at the time, he is not afraid of rubbing people the wrong way and/or losing his temper.

In other words, all of them have their weaknesses, places where they may get caught off gaurd. The more they have to get out there and debate their positions, the better I will feel about trying to make a decision in the end. I can look up and weigh the background stuff on my own. What will they say when push comes to shove?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #345 on: September 02, 2008, 04:00:39 pm »
Do you think that Edwards' extra-marital affair is fair game in politics?

But a teenage pregnancy is fair game in politics?

If not, then why was one reported and the other not?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #346 on: September 02, 2008, 04:00:45 pm »
Yes. And the FT comparing that to an unconditional immediate withdrawal of the kind Obama proposed to appeal to the anti-war crowd is his party is mendacious. Obama wanted the troops out of there before the surge began.

Maybe I just missed the memo, but could someone provide a link where Obama actually said this?  (Not where someone accused him of saying it.)
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #347 on: September 02, 2008, 04:01:25 pm »
Nope, and I don't think that any of his opponents would have been well served attacking him on it. The voters can draw their own conclusions on that kind of thing.

Indeed.  I have concluded that he's human garbage.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #348 on: September 02, 2008, 04:01:50 pm »
But a teenage pregnancy is fair game in politics?

If not, then why was one reported and the other not?

Weren't they both reported?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #349 on: September 02, 2008, 04:01:59 pm »
Yes. And the FT comparing that to an unconditional immediate withdrawal of the kind Obama proposed to appeal to the anti-war crowd is his party is mendacious. Obama wanted the troops out of there before the surge began.

You weren't talking about Obama's position, you were talking about McCain's position, as if it was gospel.  I pointed out that the "facts on the ground" have changed.  If McCain chooses to support the Bush Administration in this effort, I would applaud them all.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #350 on: September 02, 2008, 04:02:06 pm »
Rather was fired because CBS didn't want to feed the myth that they were liberally biased.  It was in their financial interest to do so.

Do you think CBS ran that piece to help out Kerry and the Dems, or do you think they ran that piece because it made them money?

I think Dan Rather doggedly pursued that piece because it would've been a great story and because it was politically damaging to Bush. I think CBS saw its credibility and hence its bottom line threatened, so they put an end to Rather's antics.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #351 on: September 02, 2008, 04:02:15 pm »
I was referring more to your inference of a liberally-biased media. You really think that the media as a whole hasn't dug into every aspect of Obama's past?

Fox's Fair and Balanced News is pretty conservative, but at least most of their hosts admit that.  My problem is MSNBC and the others masquerading themselves and their election coverage as impartial.  If you can't see the difference between how a story about Obama is treated compared to one about McCain, you're either not paying attention or a liberal.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #352 on: September 02, 2008, 04:02:20 pm »
Weren't they both reported?

And the timing on both being reported?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #353 on: September 02, 2008, 04:02:27 pm »
Nope, and I don't think that any of his opponents would have been well served attacking him on it. The voters can draw their own conclusions on that kind of thing.

Niiiiiiiice.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #354 on: September 02, 2008, 04:02:41 pm »
Weren't they both reported?

No. That's why we only know about one and not the other.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #355 on: September 02, 2008, 04:03:36 pm »
No. That's why we only know about one and not the other.

So you knew about the affair while he was embrolied in the primaries?

What, no?  It wasnt reported then.  Odd.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #356 on: September 02, 2008, 04:04:01 pm »
But a teenage pregnancy is fair game in politics?

If not, then why was one reported and the other not?

Kid is due in Dec.  If Gov Palin keeps parading her family around somebody is going to notice.  The McCain campaign had to say something. I don't think the girl can hold something in front of her stomach every time she's in public.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #357 on: September 02, 2008, 04:04:05 pm »
I think Dan Rather doggedly pursued that piece because it would've been a great story and because it was politically damaging to Bush.

Rather's job is pursue a great story, no?  Should he have not pursued it b/c it was damaging to Bush?


I think CBS saw its credibility and hence its bottom line threatened, so they put an end to Rather's antics.

Ex-fucking-actly.  They did what they did because of dollars.  They don't give a shit if what they report is biased or not unless it affect their bottom line.  
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #358 on: September 02, 2008, 04:05:06 pm »
So you knew about the affair while he was embrolied in the primaries?

What, no?  It wasnt reported then.  Odd.

You see, things have to actually be known about for them to be reported. Funny how that works.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #359 on: September 02, 2008, 04:05:23 pm »
Fox's Fair and Balanced News is pretty conservative, but at least most of their hosts admit that.  My problem is MSNBC and the others masquerading themselves and their election coverage as impartial.  If you can't see the difference between how a story about Obama is treated compared to one about McCain, you're either not paying attention or a liberal.

Actually a study was done, about 65% of the stories re Obama were considered negative, McCain about half and half.

(ETA) I got the numbers wrong, 72% neg for Obama 57% neg for McCain, negative sells http://www.cmpa.com/Studies/Election08/election%20news%207_29_08.htm
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 04:09:45 pm by pravata »

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #360 on: September 02, 2008, 04:06:42 pm »
You see, things have to actually be known about for them to be reported. Funny how that works.

The media was speculating all along that the affair had taken place, Edwards just flatly denied it.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #361 on: September 02, 2008, 04:07:03 pm »
But a teenage pregnancy is fair game in politics?

If not, then why was one reported and the other not?

The Edwards affair was reported, just by a broadly discredited source, but later confirmed by Edwards.  The Palin daughter's pregancy was broken in the blogospere and later confirmed by Palin.  My question to Arky was because he seemed to imply that it would've been ok for Edwards' camapign to have been torpedoed by the news of his affair.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #362 on: September 02, 2008, 04:08:01 pm »
Rather's job is pursue a great story, no?  Should he have not pursued it b/c it was damaging to Bush?

He absolutely should've pursued it until he could verify the sources. But he let himself get so wrapped up in it that he relied on documents that were almost certainly false, and even after that became fairly apparent, he stonewalled.

Quote
Ex-fucking-actly.  They did what they did because of dollars.  They don't give a shit if what they report is biased or not unless it affect their bottom line.

Precisely. The guys looking at the bottom line are fine with letting the journalists run the chicken coop as liberally as they want as long as they don't think it's affecting the bottom line. But that doesn't mean it's not biased.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #363 on: September 02, 2008, 04:09:56 pm »
The Edwards affair was reported, just by a broadly discredited source, but later confirmed by Edwards.  The Palin daughter's pregancy was broken in the blogospere and later confirmed by Palin.  My question to Arky was because he seemed to imply that it would've been ok for Edwards' camapign to have been torpedoed by the news of his affair.

That wasn't my implication. My implication -- or let me be more blunt -- my accusation is that the story was left on the backburner because it was Edwards and not Mitt Romney or Rudy Giuliani or Mike Huckabee, in which case it would've been all over the headlines for six weeks.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #364 on: September 02, 2008, 04:10:33 pm »
He absolutely should've pursued it until he could verify the sources. But he let himself get so wrapped up in it that he relied on documents that were almost certainly false, and even after that became fairly apparent, he stonewalled.

Precisely. The guys looking at the bottom line are fine with letting the journalists run the chicken coop as liberally as they want as long as they don't think it's affecting the bottom line. But that doesn't mean it's not biased.

As Limey mentioned above, other networks were going to run the story so it was rushed and not fully vetted.  They took a risk and it bit them big time.

Keep in mind the the chicken coop will also be run as conservatively as some journalists want as long as the brass don't think it's affecting the bottom line.  Not to mention, it will be encouraged if they think it helps said bottom line.  (Same goes for liberally.)
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #365 on: September 02, 2008, 04:10:42 pm »
The Edwards affair was reported, just by a broadly discredited source, but later confirmed by Edwards.  The Palin daughter's pregancy was broken in the blogospere and later confirmed by Palin.  My question to Arky was because he seemed to imply that it would've been ok for Edwards' camapign to have been torpedoed by the news of his affair.

John Edwards deserves a good smacking.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #366 on: September 02, 2008, 04:10:54 pm »
And the timing on both being reported?

The Edwards story was reported in October 2007.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #367 on: September 02, 2008, 04:11:22 pm »
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1835629,00.html?xid=site-cnn-partner

The writer behind the John Kerry Swift Boat controversy has a Barack Obama hit piece as well.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #368 on: September 02, 2008, 04:12:06 pm »
Niiiiiiiice.

Politicians live in huge glass houses. Taking on one of your opponents on those grounds is just begging to have a boulder rolled into your living room.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #369 on: September 02, 2008, 04:12:58 pm »
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1835629,00.html?xid=site-cnn-partner

The writer behind the John Kerry Swift Boat controversy has a Barack Obama hit piece as well.

With double the amount of falsehoods!
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #370 on: September 02, 2008, 04:13:29 pm »
With double the amount of falsehoods!

New! And Improved!!
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #371 on: September 02, 2008, 04:13:37 pm »
Maybe I just missed the memo, but could someone provide a link where Obama actually said this?  (Not where someone accused him of saying it.)

This is probably what you're looking for.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #372 on: September 02, 2008, 04:14:52 pm »
John Edwards deserves a good smacking.

He ran for office - using contributions from his supporters - knowing full well that there was a campaign-nuking story that was already out there.  He promised all his supporters that it wasn't true.  He lied to them and he lied to his wife and family.  The latter is the Edwards' private business, the former is what makes him unfit for office.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #373 on: September 02, 2008, 04:15:27 pm »
As Limey mentioned above, other networks were going to run the story so it was rushed and not fully vetted.  They took a risk and it bit them big time.

Keep in mind the the chicken coop will also be run as conservatively as some journalists want as long as the brass don't think it's affecting the bottom line.  Not to mention, it will be encouraged if they think it helps said bottom line.  (Same goes for liberally.)

And this is ultimately why conservatives should make their peace with it -- if the market bears it, then that's what the networks are going to do. Which is why Fox has been successful tapping disaffected viewers who think CNN and the three broadcast networks are run by Marxists. What I think is silly is people who think Fox is the only network that has a slant or an angle. The media, from the producers and publishers down to the correspondents and reporters, have their own agendas.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #374 on: September 02, 2008, 04:15:46 pm »
As Limey mentioned above, other networks were going to run the story so it was rushed and not fully vetted.  They took a risk and it bit them big time.

Keep in mind the the chicken coop will also be run as conservatively as some journalists want as long as the brass don't think it's affecting the bottom line.  Not to mention, it will be encouraged if they think it helps said bottom line.  (Same goes for liberally.)

Rather has hated the Bush family for decades.  He had an on-air run-in with Bush 1 that nearly got him fired 20 years ago.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #375 on: September 02, 2008, 04:16:34 pm »
He ran for office - using contributions from his supporters - knowing full well that there was a campaign-nuking story that was already out there.  He promised all his supporters that it wasn't true.  He lied to them and he lied to his wife and family.  The latter is the Edwards' private business, the former is what makes him unfit for office.

He may even have used some of that campaign money to hide what was going on, although that's obviouly not been proven.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #376 on: September 02, 2008, 04:17:27 pm »
That wasn't my implication. My implication -- or let me be more blunt -- my accusation is that the story was left on the backburner because it was Edwards and not Mitt Romney or Rudy Giuliani or Mike Huckabee, in which case it would've been all over the headlines for six weeks.

See my response to tophar.  The story was out last year.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #377 on: September 02, 2008, 04:18:18 pm »
This is probably what you're looking for.

Quote
The Obama plan, called the Iraq War De-escalation Act of 2007, would begin a troop withdrawal no later than May 1, 2007, but it includes several caveats that could forestall a clean break:

It would leave a limited number of troops in place to conduct counterterrorism activities and train Iraqi forces. And the withdrawal could be temporarily suspended if the Iraqi government meets a series of benchmarks laid out by the Bush administration. That list includes a reduction in sectarian violence; the equitable distribution of oil revenue; government reforms; and democratic, Iraqi-driven reconstruction and economic development efforts. Obama's proposal also would reverse Bush's troop-increase plan.

No serious politician, Obama included, has said "get everyone out on this date no matter what."  Some want it faster than others, and Obama may want it faster than some like, but he's not blindly promising to take everyone out regardless of what's going on.
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #378 on: September 02, 2008, 04:19:06 pm »
Actually a study was done, about 65% of the stories re Obama were considered negative, McCain about half and half.

(ETA) I got the numbers wrong, 72% neg for Obama 57% neg for McCain, negative sells http://www.cmpa.com/Studies/Election08/election%20news%207_29_08.htm


Very interesting, thanks.  I did see that the poll was for stories on ABC World News Tonight, CBS Evening News, NBC Nightly News, and Fox Special Report.  I'm basing my opinion on what I see usually flipping around the channels after the Astros.  The coverage (again, for what I'm watching) still seems more favorable to Obama.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #379 on: September 02, 2008, 04:19:40 pm »
He may even have used some of that campaign money to hide what was going on, although that's obviouly not been proven.

Sarah Palin may have shot a man in Juneau, just to watch him die.  But that also, obviously, has not been proven.
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #380 on: September 02, 2008, 04:20:37 pm »
Sarah Palin may have shot a man in Juneau, just to watch him die.  But that also, obviously, has not been proven.

Obama shot a drifter to get an erection.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #381 on: September 02, 2008, 04:20:48 pm »
No serious politician, Obama included, has said "get everyone out on this date no matter what."  Some want it faster than others, and Obama may want it faster than some like, but he's not blindly promising to take everyone out regardless of what's going on.

the bill http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=110_cong_bills&docid=f:s433is.txt.pdf

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #382 on: September 02, 2008, 04:23:11 pm »
See my response to tophar.  The story was out last year.

LAT Gags Blogs: In a move that has apparently stirred up some internal discontent, the Los Angeles Times has banned its bloggers, including political bloggers, from mentioning the Edwards/Rielle Hunter story. Even bloggers who want to mention the story in order to make a skeptical we-don't-trust-the-Enquirer point are forbidden from doing so. Kausfiles has obtained a copy of the email Times bloggers received from editor Tony Pierce. [I've excised the recipient list and omitted Pierce's email address]:

Yes it was out, and specifically asked to not be spoken of forbidden to speak of it.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 04:25:41 pm by tophfar »
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #383 on: September 02, 2008, 04:25:20 pm »
Very interesting, thanks.  I did see that the poll was for stories on ABC World News Tonight, CBS Evening News, NBC Nightly News, and Fox Special Report.  I'm basing my opinion on what I see usually flipping around the channels after the Astros.  The coverage (again, for what I'm watching) still seems more favorable to Obama.

Certain contributors to MSNBC have a clear liberal bias.  Olbermann used to have some value when he used history and videotape to skewer those in politics (with a clear focus on the Bush administration).  Now he's become a fawning idiot - and was pulled from MSNBC's coverage of the RNC convention as a result.  Next week they debut Rachel Maddow after Olbermann, and there's no smoke nor mirrors about her politics.  MSNBC is the opposite of Fox News.

I've never considered CNN as biased, merely a bastion of inept and inane mediahounds.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 04:27:19 pm by Limey »
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #384 on: September 02, 2008, 04:26:15 pm »
Sarah Palin may have shot a man in Juneau, just to watch him die.  But that also, obviously, has not been proven.

Really? Is there anything more than making that up to suggest that?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #385 on: September 02, 2008, 04:26:34 pm »
Certain contributors to MSNBC have a clear liberal bias.  Olbermann used to have some value when he used history and videotape to skewer those in politics (with a clear focus on the Bush administration).  Now he's become a fawning idiot - and was pulled from MSNBC's coverage of the RNC convention as a result.  I.e. the counter-balance to Fox News.

When was Olbermann pulled?

I mean, I thought he had committed career hara-kari at the DNC, but this fast?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #386 on: September 02, 2008, 04:26:52 pm »
Certain contributors to MSNBC have a clear liberal bias.  Olbermann used to have some value when he used history and videotape to skewer those in politics (with a clear focus on the Bush administration).  Now he's become a fawning idiot - and was pulled from MSNBC's coverage of the RNC convention as a result.  I.e. the counter-balance to Fox News.

I've never considered CNN as biased, merely a bastion of inept and inane mediahounds.

CNN is the USA Today of television.
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

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« Reply #387 on: September 02, 2008, 04:27:08 pm »
LAT Gags Blogs: In a move that has apparently stirred up some internal discontent, the Los Angeles Times has banned its bloggers, including political bloggers, from mentioning the Edwards/Rielle Hunter story. Even bloggers who want to mention the story in order to make a skeptical we-don't-trust-the-Enquirer point are forbidden from doing so. Kausfiles has obtained a copy of the email Times bloggers received from editor Tony Pierce. [I've excised the recipient list and omitted Pierce's email address]:

Yes it was out, and specifically asked to not be spoken of forbidden to speak of it.

I would associate that more with going after a former trial lawyer.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #388 on: September 02, 2008, 04:27:21 pm »
Doesn't the far left believe the media is run by conservatives?

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« Reply #389 on: September 02, 2008, 04:27:31 pm »
Really? Is there anything more than making that up to suggest that?

Johnny Fucking Cash told me.
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #390 on: September 02, 2008, 04:28:42 pm »
Really? Is there anything more than making that up to suggest that?

And to continue, if Dan Rather's "antics" bother you so much, why do you have no problem throwing out something that "obviously hasn't been proven."
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #391 on: September 02, 2008, 04:28:47 pm »
When was Olbermann pulled?

I mean, I thought he had committed career hara-kari at the DNC, but this fast?

He was replaced as Matthews spittle rag co-host over the weekend.  He was given the job of anchoring the Gustav story in NY, while everyone else went off to St. Paul.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #392 on: September 02, 2008, 04:28:55 pm »
Certain contributors to MSNBC have a clear liberal bias.  Olbermann used to have some value when he used history and videotape to skewer those in politics (with a clear focus on the Bush administration).  Now he's become a fawning idiot - and was pulled from MSNBC's coverage of the RNC convention as a result.  Next week they debut Rachel Maddow after Olbermann, and there's no smoke nor mirrors about her politics.  MSNBC is the opposite of Fox News.

I've never considered CNN as biased, merely a bastion of inept and inane mediahounds.

I don't have a problem with Olbermann doing what he does, crazy though he may be, because it's his job to be a attack dog, just like it's Hannity or Colmes. Is there a YouTube link to Olbermann and Mathews getting into it?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #393 on: September 02, 2008, 04:29:11 pm »
Doesn't the far left believe the media is run by conservatives?

Isn't the media run by a bunch of penny-pinching money-grubbing morally corrupt capitalist pigs?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #394 on: September 02, 2008, 04:30:02 pm »
And this is ultimately why conservatives should make their peace with it -- if the market bears it, then that's what the networks are going to do. Which is why Fox has been successful tapping disaffected viewers who think CNN and the three broadcast networks are run by Marxists. What I think is silly is people who think Fox is the only network that has a slant or an angle. The media, from the producers and publishers down to the correspondents and reporters, have their own agendas.

Their collective agenda is making money.  Which is why Rupert Murdoch can run Fox's unabashedly pro-Republican (I won't glorify it by calling it 'conservative') network here in the US, and attempt to schmooze his way into China with a pro-Communist satellite network.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #395 on: September 02, 2008, 04:31:26 pm »
Is there a YouTube link to Olbermann and Mathews getting into it?

Which time?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #396 on: September 02, 2008, 04:31:38 pm »
Doesn't the far left believe the media is run by conservatives?

I don't pay any attention to the mainstream media, or conspiracy theorists.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #397 on: September 02, 2008, 04:32:15 pm »
He was replaced as Matthews spittle rag co-host over the weekend.  He was given the job of anchoring the Gustav story in NY, while everyone else went off to St. Paul.

Cause all them cajuns in Plaquemines and Terrebone need these clowns tromping around fouling up their crab lines.  Cher we flood before, where ya'll was then?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #398 on: September 02, 2008, 04:32:45 pm »
And to continue, if Dan Rather's "antics" bother you so much, why do you have no problem throwing out something that "obviously hasn't been proven."

Did I assert that it was true? No. I specifically disclaimed that it hadn't been proven.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #399 on: September 02, 2008, 04:33:33 pm »
...Plaquemines and Terrebone...

I heard some butcherin' of these the last few days.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #400 on: September 02, 2008, 04:34:07 pm »
Their collective agenda is making money.  Which is why Rupert Murdoch can run Fox's unabashedly pro-Republican (I won't glorify it by calling it 'conservative') network here in the US, and attempt to schmooze his way into China with a pro-Communist satellite network.

Well, of course Rupert Murdoch is a known tool.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #401 on: September 02, 2008, 04:34:19 pm »
I couldn't understand why folks with no teeth were mining for plaque...
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #402 on: September 02, 2008, 04:34:22 pm »
Their collective agenda is making money.  Which is why Rupert Murdoch can run Fox's unabashedly pro-Republican (I won't glorify it by calling it 'conservative') network here in the US, and attempt to schmooze his way into China with a pro-Communist satellite network.

I thought James Bond killed that guy.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #403 on: September 02, 2008, 04:36:04 pm »
I don't have a problem with Olbermann doing what he does, crazy though he may be, because it's his job to be a attack dog, just like it's Hannity or Colmes. Is there a YouTube link to Olbermann and Mathews getting into it?

Getting into it, as in fawning?  If there are YouTube clips made of the Clinton or Obama speeches that were recorded from MSNBC, and they left the tape running for a bit...

And, yes, Olbermann and Hannity and O'Reilly can do what they want and/or what gets them ratings.  The problem comes when any of them are considered a source of news instead of a source of opinion.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #404 on: September 02, 2008, 04:37:57 pm »
Doesn't the far left believe the media is run by conservatives?

Yes, and the boardrooms of GE, Westinghouse, etc. would fit most people's definition of 'conservative.'  

Here's a funny, and sadly accurate, picture of media ownership.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #405 on: September 02, 2008, 04:38:15 pm »
Doesn't the far left believe the media is run by conservatives?

Yes.  Mostly because the media is owned by "big corporations".

However, as I have said before, corporations don't have politics (or souls or moral compasses).  They exist to make money and will lean in the direction of, and steal the underpants of, anyone or anything that will help their bottom line.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #406 on: September 02, 2008, 04:41:40 pm »
I heard some butcherin' of these the last few days.

Watching the Weather Channel one of their poor slicker jockeys got past Thibodaux but Cocodrie put him in the weeds.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #407 on: September 02, 2008, 04:42:07 pm »
Getting into it, as in fawning?  If there are YouTube clips made of the Clinton or Obama speeches that were recorded from MSNBC, and they left the tape running for a bit...

Matthews and Olbermann have a spat
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #408 on: September 02, 2008, 04:43:08 pm »
Did I assert that it was true? No. I specifically disclaimed that it hadn't been proven.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Push_poll
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #409 on: September 02, 2008, 04:49:14 pm »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Push_poll

Oh, no, guilty as charged. Too bad I couldn't find the push-polling feature on the forum here.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #410 on: September 02, 2008, 04:54:34 pm »
Oh, no, guilty as charged. Too bad I couldn't find the push-polling feature on the forum here.

Do you really not see the link between push polling and throwing something out with "obviously not proven"?  Really?  Where are Seth and Amy when you need them?
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #411 on: September 02, 2008, 05:02:24 pm »
Oh, no, guilty as charged. Too bad I couldn't find the push-polling feature on the forum here.

Found it.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #412 on: September 02, 2008, 05:19:18 pm »
Full circle, WTF?

Bristol Palin's boyfriend plans to join the family of the Republican vice presidential candidate at the GOP convention.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jIMJWupyWNmvU3UX2aGhICmZrQ_wD92UQKS81

Gimme one of them baby seals, I'm going to knock myself in the head till I pass out.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #413 on: September 02, 2008, 05:21:55 pm »
Full circle, WTF?

Bristol Palin's boyfriend plans to join the family of the Republican vice presidential candidate at the GOP convention.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jIMJWupyWNmvU3UX2aGhICmZrQ_wD92UQKS81

Gimme one of them baby seals, I'm going to knock myself in the head till I pass out.


Quote from: the Article
Levi Johnston's mother said her 18-year-old son left Alaska on Tuesday morning to join the Palin family in St. Paul, Minn.

Levi Johnston's mother was right!
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #414 on: September 02, 2008, 05:22:45 pm »
Full circle, WTF?

Bristol Palin's boyfriend plans to join the family of the Republican vice presidential candidate at the GOP convention.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jIMJWupyWNmvU3UX2aGhICmZrQ_wD92UQKS81

Gimme one of them baby seals, I'm going to knock myself in the head till I pass out.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #415 on: September 02, 2008, 05:25:06 pm »
"Here's the fine boy who knocked my daughter up a fine example of why abstinence-only sex education doesn't work."

FIFH.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #416 on: September 02, 2008, 05:27:24 pm »
Quote from: "Skank" Marden
I play hockey and I fornicate, 'cause those are the two most fun things to do in cold weather.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #417 on: September 02, 2008, 05:27:50 pm »
"Here's the fine boy who knocked my daughter up."

"my girl's baby daddy"?
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #418 on: September 02, 2008, 05:33:49 pm »
This pick keeps getting better and better.  Palin was a member of the Alaskan Independence Party until 1996.  Their goal is a statewide vote on secession .  She recorded a video message that was shown at their convention this year.

It was her husband.

http://news.yahoo.com/story//ap/20080902/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_palin_politics

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #419 on: September 02, 2008, 05:33:55 pm »
Do you really not see the link between push polling and throwing something out with "obviously not proven"?  Really?  Where are Seth and Amy when you need them?

No, I don't see the link.

What's your point here? Do you think I'm an agent for Edward's opponents trying to subliminally plant some idea in people's minds on an Internet discussion board about Astros baseball?

You need to step away from the keyboard if going after me for that post has got you so enflamed.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #420 on: September 02, 2008, 05:35:44 pm »
Found it.

Thanks for the help. Now I can set my nefarious John Edwards SNS defamation plan in motion!

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #421 on: September 02, 2008, 05:37:53 pm »
It was her husband.

http://news.yahoo.com/story//ap/20080902/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_palin_politics

And, it's all Obama's fault.

"Questions about a third-party link to John McCain's new running mate emerged Tuesday as the latest issue facing the McCain campaign in the midst of the Republican National Convention.

"Questions had swirled about Sarah Palin's affiliation with the Independence Party and with former presidential candidate Pat Buchanan. Voter registration records and past news reports, however, show Palin never registered as a member of the Independence Party, and backed Steve Forbes' presidential campaign in 2000, not Buchanan."

"questions had swirled" or "latest issue facing" = media masturbating all over itself about something irrelevant

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #422 on: September 02, 2008, 05:40:04 pm »
"my girl's baby daddy"?

Did anyone see that movie? Not with Palin's daughter -- but the one with Tina Fey?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #423 on: September 02, 2008, 05:42:03 pm »
FIFH.

Because kids taught from third grade on to use condoms never face unplanned pregnancies.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #424 on: September 02, 2008, 05:43:35 pm »
Because kids taught from third grade on to use condoms never face unplanned pregnancies.


So if the solution doesn't work 100% of the time, we should just pretend that the problem doesn't exist?
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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« Reply #425 on: September 02, 2008, 05:45:25 pm »

So if the solution doesn't work 100% of the time, we should just pretend that the problem doesn't exist?

Not at all. But I'd be surprised to learn that Bristol and Levi didn't know how to use birth control because of abstinence-only education and that's why Bristol's now pregnant.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #426 on: September 02, 2008, 05:48:26 pm »
Because kids taught from third grade on to use condoms never face unplanned pregnancies.

Sorry, we reviewed that one up in the booth, and Limey scored on the play. You're going to want to save some of those red flags for later in the game.
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« Reply #427 on: September 02, 2008, 05:49:21 pm »
Not at all. But I'd be surprised to learn that Bristol and Levi didn't know how to use birth control because of abstinence-only education and that's why Bristol's now pregnant.

Well, I *wouldn't* be surprised  to learn that Bristol and Levi a) did not have ready access to birth control and/or b) feared attempting to obtain birth control on their own and that's why Bristol is now pregnant.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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« Reply #428 on: September 02, 2008, 05:53:30 pm »
b) feared attempting to obtain birth control on their own and that's why Bristol is now pregnant.

I'm not buying this one as it relates to the boy.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #429 on: September 02, 2008, 05:58:40 pm »
I'm not buying this one as it relates to the boy.

So when you're dating the Governor's 16-year old daughter, there's no hesitation in walking into the Wasilla Drug Store and purchasing a box of french ticklers?
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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« Reply #430 on: September 02, 2008, 06:01:35 pm »
So when you're dating the Governor's 16-year old daughter, there's no hesitation in walking into the Wasilla Drug Store and purchasing a box of french ticklers?

You cannot convince me he couldn't get one of his friends or teammates to supply him either from their own stash or buying them for him.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #431 on: September 02, 2008, 06:06:29 pm »
You cannot convince me he couldn't get one of his friends or teammates to supply him either from their own stash or buying them for him.

I'm not saying he couldn't.  I'm suggesting the fear/stigma of having to obtain birth control may have contributed to them not using it.  I find that much more likely than "well we probably shouldn't have sex, but if we do, at least let's make sure we don't use a condom..."
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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« Reply #432 on: September 02, 2008, 06:10:26 pm »
I'm not saying he couldn't.  I'm suggesting the fear/stigma of having to obtain birth control may have contributed to them not using it.  I find that much more likely than "well we probably shouldn't have sex, but if we do, at least let's make sure we don't use a condom..."

Fear and stigma on her part.  Him, I doubt it.  There are a number of reasonable possiblities of what they were thinking or not thinking at the time of conception.
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« Reply #433 on: September 02, 2008, 06:18:46 pm »
Fear and stigma on her part.  Him, I doubt it. 


I don't.  Hell, I was uncomfortable buying condoms in Houston as an adult.  I can't imagine what it's like buying them in a small town while in high school and schtupping the Governor's underage daughter.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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« Reply #434 on: September 02, 2008, 06:22:20 pm »


I don't.  Hell, I was uncomfortable buying condoms in Houston as an adult.  I can't imagine what it's like buying them in a small town while in high school and schtupping the Governor's underage daughter.

That's why you have your friends do it.  In another town than your own.

All I'm saying is that, IMO, it is unreasonable to think he didn't have easy access to condoms.

Hell, for all we know, they were using them, but the condom failed.
Goin' for a bus ride.

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« Reply #435 on: September 02, 2008, 06:24:44 pm »
No, I don't see the link.

What's your point here? Do you think I'm an agent for Edward's opponents trying to subliminally plant some idea in people's minds on an Internet discussion board about Astros baseball?

You need to step away from the keyboard if going after me for that post has got you so enflamed.

I'm not enflamed, nor do I think you're an agent for Edwards or anyone else.

I do find it disingenuous for you to rail on the "liberally biased media", in general, and Dan Rather, in particular, for being sloppy and trying to sway the masses to their line of thought, but then turn around and post claims that haven't been proven.  I think it's extremely similar, if not the same, as what you accuse them of.  It's also extremely similar to push polling, a practice which most, our current president notwithstanding, deride.
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #436 on: September 02, 2008, 06:27:43 pm »

Hell, for all we know, they were using them, but the condom failed.


Her mother would be SO disappointed to hear that.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #437 on: September 02, 2008, 06:56:25 pm »
That's why you have your friends do it.  In another town than your own.

All I'm saying is that, IMO, it is unreasonable to think he didn't have easy access to condoms.

Hell, for all we know, they were using them, but the condom failed.

What we do know is that Palin is pro-abstinence only education.  From that we can extrapolate that she wasn't in favour of her daughter having pre-marital sex, as that is the entire...erm...thrust of abstinence only education.  Yet Bristol had sex anyway, which suggests that abstinence only doesn't work because if anyone was going to abstain, it would've been Palin's daughter.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #438 on: September 02, 2008, 07:12:18 pm »
No, I don't see the link.

What's your point here? Do you think I'm an agent for Edward's opponents trying to subliminally plant some idea in people's minds on an Internet discussion board about Astros baseball?

You need to step away from the keyboard if going after me for that post has got you so enflamed.

What Trey is getting at, is that the mention that Edwards isn't proven to have misused campaign funds was a completely pointless swipe at the man.  It's the repetition of unproven and inflammatory crap such as this which is the staple of push-polling.  We can't understand this for you, and if you don't see it then I question your ability to sort reality from hyperbole.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 07:27:50 pm by Limey »
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #439 on: September 02, 2008, 07:40:41 pm »
What Trey is getting at, is that the mention that Edwards isn't proven to have misused campaign funds was a completely pointless swipe at the man.  It's the repetition of unproven and inflammatory crap such as this which are the staple of push-polling.  We can't understand this for you, and if you don't see it then I question your ability to sort reality from hyperbole.

Hyperbole? The reality is there is an unproved allegation that campaign funds were paid to the woman to keep her quiet. I stress again, unproved, but unproved doesn't mean unmentionable. This has been reported in reputable news sources, not just the National Enquirer. Reportedly Edwards didn't know anything about any payments, but then several months ago, reportedly Edwards didn't have an affair with the woman. I don't know that Edwards knowingly paid anyone to keep quiet, but then I don't know what to think given the credibility issue here.

To turn this around and vilify the person mentioning it (and clearly disclaiming that it's unproved) as if it's some sort of subliminal libel is chickenshit. And I don't need you or anyone else to understand something for me. Particularly given the last several years that you've spent on these boards peddling all kinds of crackpot theories about the evil innerworkings of the Bush administration, I find your sudden indignation about that Edwards post to be a bit hollow.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #440 on: September 02, 2008, 07:44:51 pm »
I'm not enflamed, nor do I think you're an agent for Edwards or anyone else.

I do find it disingenuous for you to rail on the "liberally biased media", in general, and Dan Rather, in particular, for being sloppy and trying to sway the masses to their line of thought, but then turn around and post claims that haven't been proven.  I think it's extremely similar, if not the same, as what you accuse them of.  It's also extremely similar to push polling, a practice which most, our current president notwithstanding, deride.

This in itself is sloppy and deceiving: "post claims that haven't been proven." When they're clearly labeled as unproved, that makes something of a difference, doesn't it? Indeed, it takes out the whole notion that it's a "claim." And last time I checked, Rather was insisting on running with his story as true even when the documents unpinning it had almost certainly debunked as false.

As for pushpolling, I don't even know what that has to do with anything. I'm not running any kind of poll here, and I assume the other readers can decide for themselves what to think of the allegations against Edwards.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #441 on: September 02, 2008, 07:49:10 pm »


I don't.  Hell, I was uncomfortable buying condoms in Houston as an adult.  I can't imagine what it's like buying them in a small town while in high school and schtupping the Governor's underage daughter.

I think there should be points for working "schtupping" into the conversation.

Point of order, though: I don't think she was underage under Alaskan age-of-consent law.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #442 on: September 02, 2008, 08:00:51 pm »
I think there should be points for working "schtupping" into the conversation.

Point of order, though: I don't think she was underage under Alaskan age-of-consent law.

Depends on when they commenced schtupping, I suppose.  She was underaged for anything *except* having sex, how about that?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #443 on: September 02, 2008, 08:01:13 pm »
As for pushpolling, I don't even know what that has to do with anything. I'm not running any kind of poll here, and I assume the other readers can decide for themselves what to think of the allegations against Edwards.

Which is what every single candidate who has ever engaged in push polling has ever said.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #444 on: September 02, 2008, 08:03:15 pm »
Depends on when they commenced schtupping, I suppose.  She was underaged for anything *except* having sex, how about that?

She's 17 now, so the "home run" schtupping must've occurred after her 16 birthday, which is the age of consent in Alaska.  Unless menstruation is like the sun in Alaska: only comes twice a year.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #445 on: September 02, 2008, 08:08:10 pm »
Unless menstruation is like the sun in Alaska: only comes twice a year.

If that were the case then half the females on earth would move there, then.  Closely followed by all the single men.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #446 on: September 02, 2008, 08:16:52 pm »
If that were the case then half the females on earth would move there, then.  Closely followed by all the single men.

Begs the re-posting of this.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #447 on: September 02, 2008, 08:18:12 pm »
Which is what every single candidate who has ever engaged in push polling has ever said.

As a candidate running for office against John Edwards, now I see the light. Of course this is what I was up to.

Nice dodge on everything else I wrote, by the way.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #448 on: September 02, 2008, 08:20:09 pm »
Nice dodge on everything else I wrote, by the way.


Right back atchya!
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #449 on: September 02, 2008, 09:10:09 pm »
What we do know is that Palin is pro-abstinence only education. 

How do we know this?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #450 on: September 02, 2008, 09:15:55 pm »
How do we know this?

It's one of the answers on her questionnaire linked to earlier today:

Quote
3. Will you support funding for abstinence-until-marriage education instead of for explicit sex-education programs, school-based clinics, and the distribution of contraceptives in schools?
SP: Yes, the explicit sex-ed programs will not find my support.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #451 on: September 02, 2008, 09:16:40 pm »
In watching Fred Thompson...

... how in the blue hell did anyone ever believe this was a serious presidential candidate?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #452 on: September 02, 2008, 09:18:45 pm »
It's one of the answers on her questionnaire linked to earlier today:


It's also part of her solid social conservative credentials that have been touted ever since she was picked.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #453 on: September 02, 2008, 09:18:48 pm »
It's one of the answers on her questionnaire linked to earlier today:


You missed his point.  The parents can teach abstinence and the child may not listen... no differently than the paretns may teach anything else and the child may not listen.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #454 on: September 02, 2008, 09:22:49 pm »
You missed his point.  The parents can teach abstinence and the child may not listen... no differently than the paretns may teach anything else and the child may not listen.

Believe me, I understand that children may choose not to listen to the advice being given to them. I just thought that ETA was looking for some relatively concrete citation for her position.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #455 on: September 02, 2008, 09:24:32 pm »
In watching Fred Thompson...

... how in the blue hell did anyone ever believe this was a serious presidential candidate?

That was out of the desire to try to match Clinton's charisma, I believe.

The description of torture was entirely inappropriate.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #456 on: September 02, 2008, 09:26:16 pm »
That was out of the desire to try to match Clinton's charisma, I believe.

The description of torture was entirely inappropriate.

You mean the description of their enchanced interrogation techniques, right?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #457 on: September 02, 2008, 09:27:36 pm »
It's one of the answers on her questionnaire linked to earlier today:


Thank you.

ETA: The link was dead earlier when I had a chance to look and I haven't made it back that far, yet....
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 09:29:28 pm by EasTexAstro »
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #458 on: September 02, 2008, 09:28:41 pm »
Right back atchya!

Since you missed it, I ask again: what's so devious with noting an allegation that has been raised in the mainstream media while noting that it's unproved?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #459 on: September 02, 2008, 09:33:12 pm »
Isn't there anything between an explicit sex-based program and an abstinence-only program? Does it have to be all or nothing?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #460 on: September 02, 2008, 09:34:27 pm »
Isn't there anything between an explicit sex-based program and an abstinence-only program? Does it have to be all or nothing?


you are either having sex or you aren't.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #461 on: September 02, 2008, 09:36:11 pm »
you are either having sex or you aren't.

Right. And there's a difference between teaching that abstinence is ideal but use a condom if you do have sex and teaching that premarital sex is fine as long as you use a condom.

It's baffling that people who think teaching abstinence is preachy cannot see that teaching do-whatever-you-want-as-long-as-you're-protected isn't so great either.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 09:40:10 pm by Arky Vaughan »

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #462 on: September 02, 2008, 09:37:27 pm »
I think there should be points for working "schtupping" into the conversation.

Point of order, though: I don't think she was underage under Alaskan age-of-consent law.

I don't care what the legal age of consent is in Alaska, but I guarantee you that the vast majority of parents, and especially Mr. and Mrs. Palin, would think that their 17 year old daughter is too young to be schtupping.  Especially irresponsibly schtupping, though Mr. and Mrs. Palin might not be with the mainstream on that.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #463 on: September 02, 2008, 09:39:34 pm »
I don't care what the legal age of consent is in Alaska, but I guarantee you that the vast majority of parents, and especially Mr. and Mrs. Palin, would think that their 17 year old daughter is too young to be schtupping.  Especially irresponsibly schtupping, though Mr. and Mrs. Palin might not be with the mainstream on that.

No kidding? I thought they would be pleased about it.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #464 on: September 02, 2008, 09:40:30 pm »
Right. And there's a difference between teaching that abstinence is ideal but use condom if you do have sex and teaching that premarital sex is fine as long as you use a condom.

There is no "explicit sex-based" sex ed program that doesn't mention the merits of abstinence.  Saying I'm "anti explicit sex-based" programs is more code for "I'm for abstinence-only" programs than "teach the debate" is code for "evolution shouldn't be taught in science classes."
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 09:43:10 pm by Bench »
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #465 on: September 02, 2008, 09:41:23 pm »
No kidding? I thought they would be pleased about it.

That doesn't surprise me. You're the one who thought underage was an inappropriate term.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #466 on: September 02, 2008, 09:43:31 pm »
That doesn't surprise me. You're the one who thought underage was an inappropriate term.

No. I just noted that she wasn't underage by law. Somebody else already debated this earlier. Whether she was underage or not doesn't really matter as far I'm concerned. But if you want to get hung up on it because it confirms some kind of suspicion you have about me, be my guest.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #467 on: September 02, 2008, 09:45:47 pm »
There is no "explicit sex-based" sex ed program that doesn't mention the merits of abstinence.  Saying I'm "anti explicit sex-based" programs is more code for "I'm for abstinence-only" programs than "teach the debate" is code for "evolution shouldn't be taught in science classes."

How did you break the code?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #468 on: September 02, 2008, 09:46:54 pm »
No. I just noted that she wasn't underage by law. Somebody else already debated this earlier. Whether she was underage or not doesn't really matter as far I'm concerned. But if you want to get hung up on it because it confirms some kind of suspicion you have about me, be my guest.

The only thing that is confirmed, or more accurately reconfirmed, is that you were arguing a hyper-technical point for absolutely no reason.  When Hudson said "underage" I doubt he was talking about a specific statute rather than a general societal viewpoint.  As you rightly point out, the statutory age of consent has been discussed already in this post, and no doubt Hudson saw it then. 
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #469 on: September 02, 2008, 09:51:01 pm »
The only thing that is confirmed, or more accurately reconfirmed, is that you were arguing a hyper-technical point for absolutely no reason.  When Hudson said "underage" I doubt he was talking about a specific statute rather than a general societal viewpoint.  As you rightly point out, the statutory age of consent has been discussed already in this post, and no doubt Hudson saw it then. 

Re-read the post. It was a tongue-in-cheek response about schtupping anyway.

I agree with you that most parents would not consider the age-of-consent law to make them any happier about the situation.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #470 on: September 02, 2008, 10:38:29 pm »
Yet Bristol had sex anyway, which suggests that abstinence only doesn't work because if anyone was going to abstain, it would've been Palin's daughter.

Pfft....have you met any pastors kids?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #471 on: September 03, 2008, 07:58:28 am »
It's baffling that people who think teaching abstinence is preachy cannot see that teaching do-whatever-you-want-as-long-as-you're-protected isn't so great either.

It's not the teaching of abstinence to which I object, it's the teaching of abstinence only.  And sex education isn't about telling kids to get right on it as long as they wear a condom.  Do you eat talking points for breakfast every day?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #472 on: September 03, 2008, 08:01:32 am »
Right. And there's a difference between teaching that abstinence is ideal but use a condom if you do have sex and teaching that premarital sex is fine as long as you use a condom.

It's baffling that people who think teaching abstinence is preachy cannot see that teaching do-whatever-you-want-as-long-as-you're-protected isn't so great either.


I've never heard of one single person who's ever preached that.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #473 on: September 03, 2008, 08:02:34 am »
Pfft....have you met any pastors kids?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #474 on: September 03, 2008, 08:03:33 am »
I don't care what the legal age of consent is in Alaska, but I guarantee you that the vast majority of parents, and especially Mr. and Mrs. Palin, would think that their 17 year old daughter is too young to be schtupping.  Especially irresponsibly schtupping, though Mr. and Mrs. Palin might not be with the mainstream on that.

Actuall, I believe she was 16 when she got knocked up, so she was schtupping at least by 16, if not earlier.  Levi's "shibby" may have been her first time, I don't know.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #475 on: September 03, 2008, 08:07:15 am »
Actuall, I believe she was 16 when she got knocked up, so she was schtupping at least by 16, if not earlier.  Levi's "shibby" may have been her first time, I don't know.

I find that highly unlikely, especially if the part about them having plans to get married anyway is true.  Also, what the hell else are you going to do during an Alaskan winter? 

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #476 on: September 03, 2008, 08:16:59 am »
It's not the teaching of abstinence to which I object, it's the teaching of abstinence only.  And sex education isn't about telling kids to get right on it as long as they wear a condom. 

Bingo!  The hypocrisy of the matter is that most parents were "schtupping" their arses off at 17, for which they may or may not have paid heavy consequences.  The idea of your own teen offspring doing the horizontal is about as unappealing as the mental image of your grandparents doing the same. IMHO this is where the "don't even think about doing it" rigidness comes into play.

The problem is that sex ed is decided at the state and school district level and of course that will vary.  I'm sure you have states/districts that are far too extreme on both sides of the spectrum.  I do believe it highly possible for a sex ed course to be taught in a manner that encourages the act or at a minimum makes it appear as not such a big deal.  There should be a happy medium in there somewhere.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #477 on: September 03, 2008, 08:24:47 am »
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #478 on: September 03, 2008, 08:38:29 am »
In watching Fred Thompson...

... how in the blue hell did anyone ever believe this was a serious presidential candidate?

because he was awesome in The Hunt for Red October. 

This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #479 on: September 03, 2008, 08:41:59 am »
Maybe it's me but this thread highlights the problem.  Both sides are painting the other as being extreme when it's simply not the case.  Both sides are, in essence, saying the same thing.  No one wants to push a high-minded ideal on kids who probably lack the discipline and maturity to fully understand the depth of the decision but also don't want to condone a teenage sex free for all.  

I'm not sure why reasonable minds can't agree that abstinence is, morally, the proper message to kids.  Yet acknowledge that imposing ignorance on the available precautions is setting a course for failure.  What I don't agree with is the notion that kids need a class to explain what a condom does (birth control, protection from some forms of VD etc...).  What I think is truly at issue is the stigma associated with teenage sex and how that results in those that engage is sex at an early age usually do so without the protection a reasonable adult would use in a non-committed relationship.  

My kids are too young for me to have to deal with this (toddler & kindergardener) so I can't claim to have a proven track record.  However, I plan to take a candid approach and explain the expectations my wife and I have of them, i.e. no sex/children until they can be emotionally and financially responsible but, should they choose to disregard our expectations, they best know how to protect themselves and their partner.  

And if he/she can't get past the "embarrassment" of buying contraceptives, they should consider that when deciding whether they are mature enough engage in sex.  And you bet your ass if my kid comes to me telling me he's ready to have sex that I'll be dragging his ass down to the local shelter for pregnant teenagers so he can see first hand the potential consequences.  That may come across as a scare tactic, which it is to a degree, but it's also about grasping the gravity of the act, itself.  
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #480 on: September 03, 2008, 08:50:28 am »
Also, what the hell else are you going to do during an Alaskan winter? 

Play hockey?
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

HudsonHawk

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #481 on: September 03, 2008, 08:53:14 am »

And if he/she can't get past the "embarrassment" of buying contraceptives, they should consider that when deciding whether they are mature enough engage in sex.  

Do you really think that hormonal 16 year olds are thinking that rationally, sitting in the backseat of a '74 Nova with Journey playing in the background?
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

UpTooLate

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #482 on: September 03, 2008, 09:07:26 am »
Do you really think that hormonal 16 year olds are thinking that rationally, sitting in the backseat of a '74 Nova with Journey playing in the background?

HH you are seriously out of line here.  Tell me what father/mother let's their teenager have that magnificent vehicle and I'll personally kick their ass.  My brother in law has a souped up Nova in vintage condition.  It's an honor to just sit in it.  He still won't let me drive it.  Fucker.

That aside, I do agree that graphic description of how to properly use birth control devices whatever they may be is a necessity with teens.  So is the biology of pregnancy/conception.  When I was in high school, my buddies were telling me that "withdrawl" and "she can't get pregnant the first time", were very effective b/c methods.  Maybe times have changed, but I doubt it based on teen pregnancy rates.
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Arky Vaughan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #483 on: September 03, 2008, 09:09:50 am »
Do you eat talking points for breakfast every day?

Was it the Daily Kos or the Huffington Post that told you to say that?

Arky Vaughan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #484 on: September 03, 2008, 09:15:48 am »
The problem is that sex ed is decided at the state and school district level and of course that will vary.  I'm sure you have states/districts that are far too extreme on both sides of the spectrum.  I do believe it highly possible for a sex ed course to be taught in a manner that encourages the act or at a minimum makes it appear as not such a big deal.  There should be a happy medium in there somewhere.

This is precisely what I'm getting at. I don't have any particular fondness for abstinence-only education, but I don't see more explicit sex ed, including distributing condoms, as being a panacea either. But then that's what O'Reilly told me to say.

Limey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #485 on: September 03, 2008, 09:28:53 am »
Bingo!  The hypocrisy of the matter is that most parents were "schtupping" their arses off at 17, for which they may or may not have paid heavy consequences.  The idea of your own teen offspring doing the horizontal is about as unappealing as the mental image of your grandparents doing the same. IMHO this is where the "don't even think about doing it" rigidness comes into play.

The problem is that sex ed is decided at the state and school district level and of course that will vary.  I'm sure you have states/districts that are far too extreme on both sides of the spectrum.  I do believe it highly possible for a sex ed course to be taught in a manner that encourages the act or at a minimum makes it appear as not such a big deal.  There should be a happy medium in there somewhere.

I hope that they explain the dangers, both medically, physically and emotionally.  And how to avoid same...method #1 being "Just say no".
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

Arky Vaughan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #486 on: September 03, 2008, 09:30:47 am »
I hope that they explain the dangers, both medically, physically and emotionally.  And how to avoid same...method #1 being "Just say no".

Changing the subject, what's this Sept. 9 Apple thing about?

MusicMan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #487 on: September 03, 2008, 09:31:29 am »
Changing the subject, what's this Sept. 9 Apple thing about?

The iIUD.
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

Limey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #488 on: September 03, 2008, 09:32:24 am »
Was it the Daily Kos or the Huffington Post that told you to say that?

Nope.  Just the voices coming to me through my tin foil hat.
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Limey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #489 on: September 03, 2008, 09:34:38 am »
Changing the subject, what's this Sept. 9 Apple thing about?

A bunch of nice upgrades to existing product lines that will have the fan-boi's crying all over the 'net that the latest MacBookPro isn't yet capable of nuclear fusion.  Usual stuff.
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S.P. Rodriguez

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #490 on: September 03, 2008, 09:37:35 am »
HH you are seriously out of line here.  Tell me what father/mother let's their teenager have that magnificent vehicle and I'll personally kick their ass.  My brother in law has a souped up Nova in vintage condition.  It's an honor to just sit in it.  He still won't let me drive it.  Fucker.

That aside, I do agree that graphic description of how to properly use birth control devices whatever they may be is a necessity with teens.  So is the biology of pregnancy/conception.  When I was in high school, my buddies were telling me that "withdrawl" and "she can't get pregnant the first time", were very effective b/c methods.  Maybe times have changed, but I doubt it based on teen pregnancy rates.

On said fine automobile:  Agreed... music choice, not so much.

As for your friends advice, buddy, I got nothing for you.  Maybe it's being the youngest in a relatively large family.  Maybe it's the access to cable.  I can't say for certain.  But I guess those ideas were laughable to me and my friends.  I suppose there were some, among my peers who didn't know better as there were pregnancies in my class/school.  But even my devoutly catholic parents took the time to explain the basics, or at least made sure I knew the facts.  They then proceeded to threaten my life if I opted to not heed their advice (ABSTINENCE!!!) but that's a different matter.  My folks never condoned ignorance.  
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jonbloozy

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #491 on: September 03, 2008, 09:47:39 am »
Do you really think that hormonal 16 year olds are thinking that rationally, sitting in the backseat of a '74 Nova with Journey playing in the background?

16 year olds today do not listen to Journey
I say smorgasbord!

MusicMan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #492 on: September 03, 2008, 09:53:16 am »
16 year olds today do not listen to Journey

The Sopranos got them hooked again.
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

Gizzmonic

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #493 on: September 03, 2008, 09:54:22 am »
16 year olds today do not listen to Journey

They do when I pick them up in my '74 Nova.  I can buy them cigarettes, you know...

I mean, uh...abstinence is best!  I gave my word to stop at third!
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jonbloozy

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #494 on: September 03, 2008, 09:54:41 am »
The Sopranos got them hooked again.

That's too bad
I say smorgasbord!

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #495 on: September 03, 2008, 09:55:22 am »
16 year olds today do not listen to Journey

bullshit. 

then again, maybe those girls I saw at the Journey concert were 18, since they were smoking cigarettes.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #496 on: September 03, 2008, 09:57:48 am »
On said fine automobile:  Agreed... music choice, not so much.

As for your friends advice, buddy, I got nothing for you.  Maybe it's being the youngest in a relatively large family.  Maybe it's the access to cable.  I can't say for certain.  But I guess those ideas were laughable to me and my friends.  I suppose there were some, among my peers who didn't know better as there were pregnancies in my class/school.  But even my devoutly catholic parents took the time to explain the basics, or at least made sure I knew the facts.  They then proceeded to threaten my life if I opted to not heed their advice (ABSTINENCE!!!) but that's a different matter.  My folks never condoned ignorance.  

I think there have been some terrifying surveys released about what kids know and don't know about sex and pregnancy.  Also, "virginity pledges" which increasingly occur at organised, mass social events, are suspected of causing a spike in the frequency of teenage girls engaging in oral and anal sex (i.e. anywhere but the hoo-hoo).

However, I do think that parents often abdicate responsibility for sex education (it's easy for me to throw this around with abandon as I have no kids so don't have "the talk" hanging over my head).  Personally, my parents never said word one to me about sex...ever.  
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

BudGirl

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #497 on: September 03, 2008, 09:59:32 am »
On said fine automobile:  Agreed... music choice, not so much.

As for your friends advice, buddy, I got nothing for you.  Maybe it's being the youngest in a relatively large family.  Maybe it's the access to cable.  I can't say for certain.  But I guess those ideas were laughable to me and my friends.  I suppose there were some, among my peers who didn't know better as there were pregnancies in my class/school.  But even my devoutly catholic parents took the time to explain the basics, or at least made sure I knew the facts.  They then proceeded to threaten my life if I opted to not heed their advice (ABSTINENCE!!!) but that's a different matter.  My folks never condoned ignorance.  

The only thing my mom told me about sex was if I got pregnant I was out on my own.  Talk about great birth control.  Plus, she didn't allow boys in our bedroom.

Please note, I don't think she would have really kicked us out, but I don't think we were willing to take that chance.

I do remember taking health in summer school and the teacher was willing to answer any question submitted without sharing the name of the person asking the question.  That was great.  I don't remember any of the questions anymore, but I remember no one being embarrased because they asked a question. 

I did have a cousin tell me that blue balls go away and a girl doesn't have to worry about the boy.  Great advice.
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jonbloozy

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #498 on: September 03, 2008, 10:04:12 am »
I think there have been some terrifying surveys released about what kids know and don't know about sex and pregnancy.  Also, "virginity pledges" which increasingly occur at organised, mass social events, are suspected of causing a spike in the frequency of teenage girls engaging in oral and anal sex (i.e. anywhere but the hoo-hoo).

However, I do think that parents often abdicate responsibility for sex education (it's easy for me to throw this around with abandon as I have no kids so don't have "the talk" hanging over my head).  Personally, my parents never said word one to me about sex...ever.  

My first year of college was at a small Christian school in Northern California.  A lot of these kids came from very conservative backgrounds and I'd say most were virgins.  Since most did not believe in having sex before marriage, kids were getting married left and right, so they could do it.  The divorce rate was ridiculously high.
I say smorgasbord!

HudsonHawk

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #499 on: September 03, 2008, 10:26:32 am »
16 year olds today do not listen to Journey

Huh?  When did THIS happen?
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.