2011 HOF Class

[Houston]

Who makes the cut from this list of first-time eligible players in 2011?

2011: Wilson Alvarez, Carlos Baerga, Jeff Bagwell, Bret Boone, Kevin Brown, Cal Eldred, John Franco, Juan Gonzalez, Marquis Grissom, Bobby Higginson, Charles Johnson, Al Leiter, Tino Martinez, Raul Mondesi, Jose Offerman, John Olerud, Rafael Palmeiro, Paul Quantrill, Steve Reed, Kirk Rueter, Rey Sanchez, Benito Santiago, B.J. Surhoff, Ugueth Urbina, Ismael Valdez, Larry Walker, Dan Wilson

[Reuben]

Unless there's some Sutter or Gossage-type guys nearing the end of their eligibility, you'd have to think Bagwell's chances are pretty good there. He easily stands out among the first-timers thanks to Raffy Palmeiro's "B-12" debacle.

[JackAstro]

Bagwell, Cat Head, Franco

[Amy]

Just off the top of my head, without looking up any stats...  I would expect Bagwell to get by far the most votes out of that group, but possibly not enough to be inducted on this first ballot (although, of course I think he should).  Palmeiro will probably linger on the ballot for a few years.  I think Franco, Walker and Santiago may get enough votes to stay on the ballot for at least one more year.  Probably also Juan-Gone.

[ValpoCory]

I always find it interesting that every year in baseball there are so many incredible players doing incredible things ... breaking this record and setting that record ... yet when the list of players like this comes out, you can see only 1 or 2 people a year that are good enough to have a shot at Cooperstown.    Makes you truly appreciate prolonged excellence.  Thanks Bags and Bidge.

[MusicMan]

Bagwell, Cat Head, Franco

"Who are 2 people who are not in Jeff Bagwell's class?"

[Reuben]

who is "Cat-Head"?

[austro]

who is "Cat-Head"?

Larry Walker.

[MusicMan]

who is "Cat-Head"?

I was all set to direct you to the Funk and Wagner, but that entry appears to not be updated.

[JackAstro]

"Who are 2 people who are not in Jeff Bagwell's class?"

I tend to agree, and I don't necessarily think they'll make it on the first try.

Walker's better than people generally recognize, but he could easily get tripped up by the inflation of his stats from Coors. Personally, I think he was a better player than Gonzalez, but that's thinking is probably not in the majority. Franco will probably be slowed by the fact that he would be making it in on the merits of closing, but spent the last 5 seasons of his career not doing it.

I think the real or perceived problems with other candidates will help Bags get over the hump of having his shoulder crap out on him, so this is a pretty ideal class for him to be in.

[Craig]

I was all set to direct you to the Funk and Wagner, but that entry appears to not be updated.

There's a restaurant here in Hot Springs that sells Cat-Head Biscuits. I haven't eaten one though.

[Andyzipp]

I was all set to direct you to the Funk and Wagner, but that entry appears to not be updated.

Wasn't it Cat-Piss?

Anyway, he's listed under Whiner, the...I think this was one of Kevin's.

[Reuben]

I tend to agree, and I don't necessarily think they'll make it on the first try.

Walker's better than people generally recognize, but he could easily get tripped up by the inflation of his stats from Coors. Personally, I think he was a better player than Gonzalez, but that's thinking is probably not in the majority. Franco will probably be slowed by the fact that he would be making it in on the merits of closing, but spent the last 5 seasons of his career not doing it.

I think the real or perceived problems with other candidates will help Bags get over the hump of having his shoulder crap out on him, so this is a pretty ideal class for him to be in.

Actually, when you look at it, Walker's got a pretty good case: 3 batting titles, an MVP, 7 Gold Gloves, .313 career BA. Waaay better "player" than Juan Gonzalez, probably a better hitter too. He'll be hurt, like you said by the Coors factor and also the Montreal and Colorado factors, plus the fact that the injuries left him with "only" 383 HR (52nd all-time) and 471 2B (69th all-time).

[MusicMan]

Walker's counting stats will hurt him greatly.

[Craig]

Wasn't it Cat-Piss?

Anyway, he's listed under Whiner, the...I think this was one of Kevin's.

Well I think it started out being "Cat-Piss" because Walker complained the Astrodome smelled like cat urine. But someone else started using "Cat-Head" because his head looked like a cat's. I liked "Cat-Head" better (because he does kind of look like an ugly cat) and used it in some previews long ago, and I think it sort of evolved to where we were using both.

[JackAstro]

Well I think it started out being "Cat-Piss" because Walker complained the Astrodome smelled like cat urine. But someone else started using "Cat-Head" because his head looked like a cat's. I liked "Cat-Head" better (because he does kind of look like an ugly cat) and used it in some previews long ago, and I think it sort of evolved to where we were using both.

Thank God, I was starting to think I had imagined the whole thing. If I lose my grasp on these hundreds of nicknames of undetermined origin, I have lost the very foundation of my reality. Which I then have to rebuild via Photoshop and wiki edits, and that shit takes time.

[Reuben]

Walker's counting stats will hurt him greatly.

Yeah, especially these:
Games played for NYY: 0
Games played for BOS: 0

edit: not to give the impression that I am trumpeting him as a HOFer just yet. Just saying, looking back at his career, and the way he played, he definitely deserves some consideration.

[jester9450]

bagwell an maybe gonzales

[ybbodeus]

You just never know with the voters.  I mean, if the Chronicle has a writer or two with votes, that doesn't exactly give me much confidence that the voters around the country are much better.

[David in Jackson]

Bagwell, Cat Head, Franco

I don't think Franco makes it.  Only Bags is a first ballot guy.

[jaklewein]

Actually, when you look at it, Walker's got a pretty good case: 3 batting titles, an MVP, 7 Gold Gloves, .313 career BA. Waaay better "player" than Juan Gonzalez, probably a better hitter too. He'll be hurt, like you said by the Coors factor and also the Montreal and Colorado factors, plus the fact that the injuries left him with "only" 383 HR (52nd all-time) and 471 2B (69th all-time).

Walker could also run...and had a a strong arm.  Definition of a 5-tool player.

[Taras Bulba]

Walker could also run...and had a a strong arm.  Definition of a 5-tool player.

Whatever the case, Walker didn't whine after the Astros beat the Cards in 2005.

[Houston]

Walker could also run...and had a a strong arm.  Definition of a 5-tool player.

If you discount Walker's stats in Colorado, which I do, he was a good, but not great player. Outside of his Mile High years, he hit over .300 twice (.322 in 1994 and .301 in 1992), and had highs of 23 HR and 93 RBI. Only three times did he play at least 140 games. He was amazing in Colorado, but Bagwell was amazing in the Astrodome. To me, that puts Bags miles ahead of Walker.

[Jacksonian]

Only three times did he play at least 140 games.

That turf in Montreal took its toll on his body.

I don't equate him to Bags because they played different positions.  I don't know if the voters care though.

[Limey]

I don't equate him to Bags because they played different positions.  I don't know if the voters care though.

They'll get bogged down on what was the opposing catcher's ERA and such.

[Taras Bulba]

They'll get bogged down on what was the opposing catcher's ERA and such.

Neither one played in New York or Boston so they're both fucked.

[Houston]

Neither one played in New York or Boston so they're both fucked.

But Bagwell was drafted by Boston, so that's got to count for 2-3 votes. He'll get Peter Gammons' vote for sure.

[strosrays]

Who makes the cut from this list of first-time eligible players in 2011?

2011: Wilson Alvarez, Carlos Baerga, Jeff Bagwell, Bret Boone, Kevin Brown, Cal Eldred, John Franco, Juan Gonzalez, Marquis Grissom, Bobby Higginson, Charles Johnson, Al Leiter, Tino Martinez, Raul Mondesi, Jose Offerman, John Olerud, Rafael Palmeiro, Paul Quantrill, Steve Reed, Kirk Rueter, Rey Sanchez, Benito Santiago, B.J. Surhoff, Ugueth Urbina, Ismael Valdez, Larry Walker, Dan Wilson

Bags is the only one I can see.  I cannot see John Franco at all.  Even in his heyday, he was mostly a one-inning guy who piled up the saves because he got a lot of chances with good teams.  His longevity is admirable, but he is not the first lefty-specialist to accomplish that and, anyway, that is more of an historical curiosity than a qualification for the HOF.  He wasn't bad at all, but never dominant. 

But this is an interesting list, anyway.  One might call it the Class of Wasted/Denied Promise. . .

Carlos Baerga - Through age 26 (5+ seasons), he looked like he'd coast into the HOF.  Then he was traded to the steM, and fell off a cliff.

Juan Gonzalez - His first 11 seasons, he averaged 36 HRs and 115 RBIs; but his prime coincided almost exactly with the inflated offense/steroid era, and he played in a launching pad.  His fall-off after age 30 was precipitious.

Marquis Grissom - When he came up with the Expos, Grissom was very nearly a five-tool guy (he was never a true power hitter.)  Early on, he looked like the second coming of Tim Raines, a guy who would star for years.  In Grissom's case, he was a good, solid player for a long time.  Perhaps it was the early perceptions of him which were flawed - he had a very good (but not great) career.

Charles Johnson - When he came up, he was already a great defensive catcher.  When his power and offensive consistency improved, he looked (for awhile) like a poor man's Johnny Bench.  But he got beat up pretty quickly.  I thought being traded to Coors might give him an offensive boost in the twilight of his career, but it didn't.

Raul Mondesi - Hard to remember now, but he looked like a perrenial all-star as a young player.  A four-tool guy (he was too undisciplined a swinger to hit consistently for average), Mondesi was one of the best outfielders in the league, with a gun for an arm; and a guy with 30-30 type power and speed.  He was good-to-great throughout his tenure with LA, but started downhill after that.  Some said he partied too much (one cannot party "too much", I would contend) and worked out too little (OK, one can do that.)

John Olerud - He came up young, and didn't really hit his stride until his third season, but damn, he had a beautiful swing.  He had a little pop, too, but I still cannot figure out why he didn't hit .340 every year.  He took a lot of walks, and that coupled with the pretty stroke had me thinking he could hit .400 some year.  Nope.  He had a nice career, but not a great one.

[MusicMan]

Benito Santiago goes right in that list.  Remember what a weapon it initially looked like he'd be behind the plate?

[strosrays]

Benito Santiago goes right in that list.  Remember what a weapon it initially looked like he'd be behind the plate?

I thought about it.  But Santiago really had a long and mostly distinguished career, especially considering he stayed behind the dish for all of it.  He might not have ended up where it looked like he might early on, but he didn't fall that short.

I don't know, I always felt like Johnson's career was more disapointing.

[Limey]

Benito Santiago goes right in that list.  Remember what a weapon it initially looked like he'd be behind the plate?

He also looked his best behind the plate, with his mask on.

[Ty in Tampa]

He also looked his best behind the plate, with his mask on.

A number of years ago, while watching All-Star introductions with my girlfriend, they got to Santiago and she says, "Who's the old man in the catcher's gear? Is he a coach?"

[geezerdonk]

He also looked his best behind the plate, with his mask on.

He was no Andy Etchebarren.

[Señor Stan]

He also looked his best behind the plate, with his mask on.

...thank goodness they didn't televise in HD.