Hey, JimR (and any other, er, long-time UT fan)

[strosrays]

My brother was talking recently about dealing with James Street on some settlement structure thing, and I got to thinking about 1969 and found this:

The Game of the Century

I watched this game on TV with my dad, who was going crazy from nervousness and tension, when I was 9 years old.  I don't think I will ever forget it.  Street was brilliant, and I'll never forget what he reportedly told Randy Peschel in the huddle prior to throwing the bomb on 4th and 3: "Run like hell, Randy.  Run like hell."

I am sure you've seen this.  I've watched it a dozen times since I found it.  Somehow, it doesn't get old, though.

[JimR]

My brother was talking recently about dealing with James Street on some settlement structure thing, and I got to thinking about 1969 and found this:

The Game of the Century

I watched this game on TV with my dad, who was going crazy from nervousness and tension, when I was 9 years old.  I don't think I will ever forget it.  Street was brilliant, and I'll never forget what he reportedly told Randy Peschel in the huddle prior to throwing the bomb on 4th and 3: "Run like hell, Randy.  Run like hell."

I am sure you've seen this.  I've watched it a dozen times since I found it.  Somehow, it doesn't get old, though.

i will never, ever forget it. folks who think Mack Brown invented football at UT have no idea.

[juliogotay]

i will never, ever forget it. folks who think Mack Brown invented football at UT have no idea.

There is a great book for anybody wanting to re-live this game. Horns, Hogs & Nixon Coming by Terry Frei. In addition to the game coverage it dovetails with the social climate of the South at the time. Great read.

[JimR]

There is a great book for anybody wanting to re-live this game. Horns, Hogs & Nixon Coming by Terry Frei. In addition to the game coverage it dovetails with the social climate of the South at the time. Great read.

i loved that book. strosrays, have you read it?

[Guinness]

thanks for that, I love watching 'games of yore' so to speak.  One of the best things about an mlb.tv subscription is watching games from the 70's, seeing how the game was played, what the announcers were like.  Love it, thanks again.

[subnuclear]

My computer science teacher liked to re-enact this game for us for some reason.  I think he tried to tie it into some relevant subject but I can't fathom what that might of been. Watching the actual game is a bit of a let down from listening to his description, but I guess context is everything.

[strosrays]

i loved that book. strosrays, have you read it?

No.  But I will now.

I forgot how much I liked the wishbone offense.  Ted Koy, Steve Worster, Jim Bertelson - those names were like magic to me.

When I was a kid, my dad would tell me about the old single wing, and how if he was a coach somewhere he'd bring it back and just run and pass all over the baffled defenses.  He said if executed correctly, it was nearly unstoppable.

I kind of feel the same way about the wishbone.  I'd install it and then destroy the opposition, just triple option their ass to death.

[mihoba]

I forgot how much I liked the wishbone offense.  Ted Koy, Steve Worster, Jim Bertelson - those names were like magic to me.

And Chris Gilbert had just graduated the year before, setting a school record in '68 for rushing.

I still vividly remember Earl as a frosh FB in the 'bone.

Jasper has run a variation of the single wing for a couple of years now. Strange to watch compared to the college and NFL pro sets.

[juliogotay]

No.  But I will now.

I forgot how much I liked the wishbone offense.  Ted Koy, Steve Worster, Jim Bertelson - those names were like magic to me.

When I was a kid, my dad would tell me about the old single wing, and how if he was a coach somewhere he'd bring it back and just run and pass all over the baffled defenses.  He said if executed correctly, it was nearly unstoppable.

I kind of feel the same way about the wishbone.  I'd install it and then destroy the opposition, just triple option their ass to death.

Another amazing fact during this era was that offensive lineman were not much larger than the RB's. Read this book and you'll see that the Texas O-line averaged maybe 215-225 lbs. This team also was lilly-white which was a re-current theme throughout the story. Not in a self-rightous, preachy way so much as a sign-of-the-times narrative.

Royal's call of that pass on the final drive to Peschel was either brilliant or madness. It worked so I'll go with brilliant. BTW, I was not a football player but Coach Royal was the reason I chose to go to UT. I always admired him as a youngster.

[ybbodeus]

I grew up in a part of the country that was far more Razorback inclined, so we were just about the only folks in our neighborhood pulling for the Horns.  Now, if the folks in MEMPHIS were as depressed about the outcome of that game as they were, I can only imagine what things were like in that state across the river from us.  That 4th and 2 play....THE CALL....was the perfect blend of gamesmanship and execution.

Risky conclusion here, given I'm not a Longhorn, but here goes.....for all the sins of Mackovic, his throwback to "THE CALL" in that Big 12 championship game against Nebraska should at a minimum keep him on a FEW Christmas card lists; I mean, the play that helped beat (then) mighty Nebraska?  Yeah, I know he didn't pan out, but that was one hell of a win, too, though on a smaller scale, no doubt.

[juliogotay]

I grew up in a part of the country that was far more Razorback inclined, so we were just about the only folks in our neighborhood pulling for the Horns.  Now, if the folks in MEMPHIS were as depressed about the outcome of that game as they were, I can only imagine what things were like in that state across the river from us.  That 4th and 2 play....THE CALL....was the perfect blend of gamesmanship and execution.

Risky conclusion here, given I'm not a Longhorn, but here goes.....for all the sins of Mackovic, his throwback to "THE CALL" in that Big 12 championship game against Nebraska should at a minimum keep him on a FEW Christmas card lists; I mean, the play that helped beat (then) mighty Nebraska?  Yeah, I know he didn't pan out, but that was one hell of a win, too, though on a smaller scale, no doubt.

Certainly one of the top 10 wins in UT football history. Too bad (for him) the momentum didn't carry forward from that game. Mackovic was a great offensive coach. That's probably all he should have ever been at the collegiate level.

[JimR]

Certainly one of the top 10 wins in UT football history. Too bad (for him) the momentum didn't carry forward from that game. Mackovic was a great offensive coach. That's probably all he should have ever been at the collegiate level.

i think he would have been a great HC if:

1. he valued defense enough to hire a top DC.
2. he was not so arrogant as to piss off the entire Longhorn World.

if he had Brown's PR savy, he would still be at UT.

[Andyzipp]

i think he would have been a great HC if:

1. he valued defense enough to hire a top DC.
2. he was not so arrogant as to piss off the entire Longhorn World.

if he had Brown's PR savy, he would still be at UT.

To an outsider, Mackovic treated defense as an afterthough.  He recruited good defensive players, but assumed that talent on that end of the ball would be enough to get them over.

[JimR]

To an outsider, Mackovic treated defense as an afterthough.  He recruited good defensive players, but assumed that talent on that end of the ball would be enough to get them over.

yep, and sometimes he raided the defense e.g. Kwame Cavil, who was recruited as a safety.

[Andyzipp]

yep, and sometimes he raided the defense e.g. Kwame Cavil, who was recruited as a safety.

Yeah, that's one thing I didn't understand with Franchione (among several).  He tended to recruit "Athletes" and them put them on offense, leaving sometimes slim pickings for the defense.

[JimR]

Yeah, that's one thing I didn't understand with Franchione (among several).  He tended to recruit "Athletes" and them put them on offense, leaving sometimes slim pickings for the defense.

sounds like Mackovic's twin. DF pissed off the alums with his aloofness, too, just like JM. makes no sense to me. both are/were very good coaches.

[Taras Bulba]

I used to know former All American/all-pro defensive back Gary Green.  He had just come off of an all-pro season with Kansas City when they hired Mack.  On the first day of pre-season camp, Green was helping a rookie with some type of technical issue when Mack came over and told him that "coaches coach and players play and that he needed to keep his mouth shut."

[juliogotay]

i think he would have been a great HC if:

1. he valued defense enough to hire a top DC.
2. he was not so arrogant as to piss off the entire Longhorn World.

if he had Brown's PR savy, he would still be at UT.

3 BIG If's.

[drew corleone]

yep, and sometimes he raided the defense e.g. Kwame Cavil, who was recruited as a safety.

Cavil was a LB in HS.

Despite his faults, I liked Mackovic, and I think he played an important role in getting Texas back to national prominence, even if he wasn't the guy that ultimately made it happen. And I'll never forget the 96 Nebraska game as long as I live. Looking back, 94-96 were pretty good years to be a Texas fan, especially compared to the decade prior. Everything just kind of fell apart in 97.

[JimR]

Cavil was a LB in HS.

maybe so, but he was recruited as a strong safety.

[Kent's Moustache]

i will never, ever forget it. folks who think Mack Brown invented football at UT have no idea.

Who are those people?

I encounter a lot more Longhorn fans who willfully ignore facts and football logic in order to convince themselves that Mack Brown deserves no credit for the team's renaissance since 1998, including the 2005 national championship.

I don't think that Mack Brown invented UT football, but there wasn't much to celebrate between Coach Royal and Brown.

[MRaup]

Who are those people?

I encounter a lot more Longhorn fans who willfully ignore facts and football logic in order to convince themselves that Mack Brown deserves no credit for the team's renaissance since 1998, including the 2005 national championship.

I don't think that Mack Brown invented UT football, but there wasn't much to celebrate between Coach Royal and Brown.

The other end of the idiot spectrum.

[JimR]

If you do not care about championships, Mack Brown is the greatest coach in the history of football. He won one Big 12 championship with Young and may retire with one. He is a good CEO and a great recruiter. That's it, imo.

[MusicMan]

I don't think that Mack Brown invented UT football, but there wasn't much to celebrate between Coach Royal and Brown.

Shock the Nation tour?  One fumble away from the NC in 83?  Steelers Roll Left, aka I Have Gigantic Testicles?  Back-to-Back Bowl Coalition appearances?

[JimR]

Shock the Nation tour?  One fumble away from the NC in 83?  Steelers Roll Left, aka I Have Gigantic Testicles?  Back-to-Back Bowl Coalition appearances?

exactly. the UT media machine would have you believe that UT did nothing between Royal and Brown. one of my pet peeves is the stuff on the Jumbrotron, and most all of the football media guide, is nothing but "The Mack Brown Era."

[juliogotay]

exactly. the UT media machine would have you believe that UT did nothing between Royal and Brown. one of my pet peeves is the stuff on the Jumbrotron, and most all of the football media guide, is nothing but "The Mack Brown Era."

I would be perfectly fine if they tore that fuckin' Jumbotron down and did away with the showbiz.

[Kent's Moustache]

Shock the Nation tour?  One fumble away from the NC in 83?  Steelers Roll Left, aka I Have Gigantic Testicles?  Back-to-Back Bowl Coalition appearances?

Well, let's talk about how those turned out.

Shock the Nation?  A fine regular season, to be sure, but that Cotton Bowl loss to Miami is one of the most embarrassing losses in school history.

1983?  A magical regular season followed by bitter disappointment in the Cotton Bowl.

Roll Left?  A ballsy play-call and a great win.  Followed by a merciless beat-down by Penn State in the Fiesta Bowl.

Back-to-back appearances in "Coalition" bowls?  Better stated, back-to-back ass-whippings by Va. Tech and Penn State in the Sugar and Fiesta, respectively.

I never said that nothing good happened between Coaches Royal and Brown, but there was damn sure something significant missing between 1970 and 2005.

[Kent's Moustache]

exactly. the UT media machine would have you believe that UT did nothing between Royal and Brown. one of my pet peeves is the stuff on the Jumbrotron, and most all of the football media guide, is nothing but "The Mack Brown Era."

Horsehockey.

They show President Nixon "awarding" Coach Royal and the boys the national championship following the epic 1969 game in Fayetteville during the warm-ups for every game.  I've also seen them show Street-to-Peschel from that same game and Brown-to-Lewis (i.e., "Roll Left") from the 1997 Big 12 title game.

Brown has done a fine job of re-connecting to the Longhorn tradition--particularly involving Coach Royal--after Mackovic did his damnedest to sever those ties to the past (not to mention to Texas high school football coaches).

[ybbodeus]

The simple reality, even to non-Horns like myself, is that the success of UT tends to drive the football machine in this part of the world like no other program out there, OU & A&M not withstanding.  Mack appears to be as aware of this as anyone, and I'm always impressed with how he manages that animal, even when the fans seem poised to turn on him.....last season's impressive Holiday Bowl win being the most recent example of "vindication," if that's an applicable term. 

It's a hungry beast he has to keep fed, given the ambitious expectations of Texas fans.  The pressure cooker in which he operates is probably college football's most intense position, with apologies to Alabama, Florida and Ohio State.  Does he have to find a way to elevate the play this year?  Probabaly, but is that any different from any OTHER season?

Shit, it's a great position to be in, no doubt, talented enough to challenge for and win the title year in and year out.  Meanwhile, back in Waco.......{sigh}.  Sic 'em, Art.

EDIT:  Seek the chair's permission to revise my f-up....Holiday Bowl, not Fiesta Bowl.

[JimR]

Well, let's talk about how those turned out.

Shock the Nation?  A fine regular season, to be sure, but that Cotton Bowl loss to Miami is one of the most embarrassing losses in school history.

1983?  A magical regular season followed by bitter disappointment in the Cotton Bowl.

Roll Left?  A ballsy play-call and a great win.  Followed by a merciless beat-down by Penn State in the Fiesta Bowl.

Back-to-back appearances in "Coalition" bowls?  Better stated, back-to-back ass-whippings by Va. Tech and Penn State in the Sugar and Fiesta, respectively.

I never said that nothing good happened between Coaches Royal and Brown, but there was damn sure something significant missing between 1970 and 2005.

only if you limit your definition of success to be a national championship. that great victory was spelled Y.o.u.n.g, not B.r.o.w.n.

[loganck]

only if you limit your definition of success to be a national championship. that great victory was spelled Y.o.u.n.g, not B.r.o.w.n.

Because Young was insturmental to the championship means Brown deserves no credit?

[JaneDoe]

Because Young was insturmental to the championship means Brown deserves no credit?

Well, Brown was smart enough to play him.

[juliogotay]

Well, Brown was smart enough to play him.

Everyone that had anything to do with that team deserves some credit. Brown deserves a whole lot. But Vince was the difference-maker clearly. Not only his talent but his will-to-win...he wouldn't let that team lose. they had a lot of talent and give Brown credit for that. But they often have alot of talent. Vince provided that whole team with a confidence and a swagger not previously seen in austin for many years and not seen since. Brown has many qualities but motivation may not be a strength. Stoopes has beaten Brown many times with less talent.

[ybbodeus]

That was the best offensive line I've ever seen in terms of size, talent and the manner in which it played as a unit.  They didn't just create lanes for running backs and THE PLAYER; they created freaking thoroughfares.  A freelancing Young was what that team needed to win the title, but it was one special team, no doubt.  They treated the football field like an office, and business was DAMNED good.....God damnit!

[JimR]

Because Young was insturmental to the championship means Brown deserves no credit?

he recruited him and let him play.

[Kent's Moustache]

That was the best offensive line I've ever seen in terms of size, talent and the manner in which it played as a unit.  They didn't just create lanes for running backs and THE PLAYER; they created freaking thoroughfares.  A freelancing Young was what that team needed to win the title, but it was one special team, no doubt.  They treated the football field like an office, and business was DAMNED good.....God damnit!

Exactly.  When fans lay credit for the title at Vince's feet, they inherently disrespect the Herculean efforts of other great players, e.g., that badass OL (five of whom are playing in the NFL); TE Thomas (Patriots); WR Sweed (Steelers); RBs Young (Broncos) and Charles (Chiefs); DTs Wright (Dolphins) and Okam (Texans); DEs Crowder (Broncos) and Robison (Vikings); and DBs Huff (Thorpe, Raiders), Griffin (Vikings), Ross (Thorpe, Giants), Brown (49ers) and Griffin (Titans).  And, those are just the NFL players from that team besides Vince.

Football is a far more team-oriented game than baseball.  Having played it myself until the NCAA wouldn't let me anymore, I therefore scoff when I hear anyone pretend to credit one player for a football team's success.

Vince was, no doubt, the most dynamic player and leader on the '05 team.  We would almost undoubtedly not have won the national title without him.  But, we would almost undoubtedly not have won that same national title if, e.g., Mike Griffin doesn't make that INT in the Trojans endzone, or if our stellar OL hadn't dominated USC up front for most of the game, or if David Thomas hadn't caught 10 passes, or if Ramonce Taylor hadn't busted his long TD run, or if Frank Okam hadn't sacked Leinart, or if Brian Robison and other defensive teammates hadn't stuffed LenDale White on 4th-and-2.

In my estimation, people like Jim R, who would tell you that Vince deserves the credit for the national title instead of Mack Brown--as if "instead," as opposed to "along with," were even logical or necessary--simply have a bone to pick with Brown.  I'll bet that Jim will admit as much.  Why, I suppose, is the real question.

[Rebel Jew]

In my estimation, people like Jim R, who would tell you that Vince deserves the credit for the national title instead of Mack Brown--as if "instead," as opposed to "along with," were even logical or necessary--simply have a bone to pick with Brown.  I'll bet that Jim will admit as much.  Why, I suppose, is the real question.

i don't think jim's saying that there were no other players on the team who contributed in that game or that season, but rather that young is the major variable between mack brown's lone big 12 & national title, and season after season of being better than the non-oklahoma big 12 south.

i personally think mack typifies the b.c.s. era of college football where the big football factory schools resemble corporations, and everybody else resembles a mom and pop store.

(http://www.mackbrown-texasfootball.com/image_lib/obama_barack_022108_300.jpg)

[JimR]

Exactly.  When fans lay credit for the title at Vince's feet, they inherently disrespect the Herculean efforts of other great players, e.g., that badass OL (five of whom are playing in the NFL); TE Thomas (Patriots); WR Sweed (Steelers); RBs Young (Broncos) and Charles (Chiefs); DTs Wright (Dolphins) and Okam (Texans); DEs Crowder (Broncos) and Robison (Vikings); and DBs Huff (Thorpe, Raiders), Griffin (Vikings), Ross (Thorpe, Giants), Brown (49ers) and Griffin (Titans).  And, those are just the NFL players from that team besides Vince.

Football is a far more team-oriented game than baseball.  Having played it myself until the NCAA wouldn't let me anymore, I therefore scoff when I hear anyone pretend to credit one player for a football team's success.

Vince was, no doubt, the most dynamic player and leader on the '05 team.  We would almost undoubtedly not have won the national title without him.  But, we would almost undoubtedly not have won that same national title if, e.g., Mike Griffin doesn't make that INT in the Trojans endzone, or if our stellar OL hadn't dominated USC up front for most of the game, or if David Thomas hadn't caught 10 passes, or if Ramonce Taylor hadn't busted his long TD run, or if Frank Okam hadn't sacked Leinart, or if Brian Robison and other defensive teammates hadn't stuffed LenDale White on 4th-and-2.

In my estimation, people like Jim R, who would tell you that Vince deserves the credit for the national title instead of Mack Brown--as if "instead," as opposed to "along with," were even logical or necessary--simply have a bone to pick with Brown.  I'll bet that Jim will admit as much.  Why, I suppose, is the real question.

no, i have a bone to pick with folks who think that Brown is the second coming of DKR or that UT football began in "the Mack Brown era." ONE Big 12 championship, and that is the ONLY championship of his career. that is not some random stat. of course, football is a team game, including the 2006 RB, but if anyone thinks UT would have won that game, after all the great plays of others, without VY, they are crazy. ditto the OSU game. every other MB team, including at least two (maybe more) that only had to defeat weak opponents, has not won a conference title.

Brown is a marvelous recruiter, a fine CEO, a PR machine and a good man. i am glad he is at UT, and i hope he retires here. i hope he wins all his games, but i am realistic about his past record and what it means for the future. i am not a disgruntled UT fan, but the incessant hyping of a man, not a program with a long and proud tradition, irritates me no end.

[juliogotay]

no, i have a bone to pick with folks who think that Brown is the second coming of DKR or that UT football began in "the Mack Brown era." ONE Big 12 championship, and that is the ONLY championship of his career. that is not some random stat. of course, football is a team game, including the 2006 RB, but if anyone thinks UT would have won that game, after all the great plays of others, without VY, they are crazy. ditto the OSU game. every other MB team, including at least two (maybe more) that only had to defeat weak opponents, has not won a conference title.

Brown is a marvelous recruiter, a fine CEO, a PR machine and a good man. i am glad he is at UT, and i hope he retires here. i hope he wins all his games, but i am realistic about his past record and what it means for the future. i am not a disgruntled UT fan, but the incessant hyping of a man, not a program with a long and proud tradition, irritates me no end.

I, for one, could not have said that better. I am glad that Brown is our coach and pleased with what he has accomplished including alot of very good things that don't show up in the W-L record. If I had a son gifted enough to play for MB I would love for him to do so. At this point of his career, he has exactly the same number of conference championships as Mackovic had at UT in a shorter time span. So, there is some underachieving going on for whatever reason when you consider what he has to work with. I am hopeful that the best is yet-to-come with the Brown era. I think the Horns could be pretty special in 2009 season.

[otterjb]

Every year Texas has a good shot at winning a national title, and that's all you can ask for, but when they don't, some fans act like the world has ended, blood falling from the sky. After a loss, you gotta have some perspective, and lots of fans don't. I also think that that scenario becomes an outlet for people to vent.

[juliogotay]

Every year Texas has a good shot at winning a national title, and that's all you can ask for, but when they don't, some fans act like the world has ended, blood falling from the sky. After a loss, you gotta have some perspective, and lots of fans don't. I also think that that scenario becomes an outlet for people to vent.

This year they clearly do not have a good shot of winning a national title. They are extremely inexperienced at too many positions. I think winning 9 games will be a good season for them with their schedule of conference games.

[MusicMan]

This year they clearly do not have a good shot of winning a national title. They are extremely inexperienced at too many positions. I think winning 9 games will be a good season for them with their schedule of conference games.

2009 will be a better year.  But they have a shot at the Big XII, as they do every year.

[Kent's Moustache]

This year they clearly do not have a good shot of winning a national title. They are extremely inexperienced at too many positions. I think winning 9 games will be a good season for them with their schedule of conference games.

I'm more optimistic about this season than most, if for no other reason than our OL and LB corps should be significantly better than last season.

That OL is still a little young, but they've got a load of talent and got a chance to play together as the season concluded.  What they did to A.State's defense in the Holiday Bowl was beautiful.

The LB corps has been the defense's weakness since Derrick Johnson graduated.  They should experience some addition-by-subtraction at the position, with some of the vets leaving and some of the younger and more talented players finally getting their shot.

The secondary and interior DL remain big question marks, though.

[Andyzipp]

I'm more optimistic about this season than most, if for no other reason than our OL and LB corps should be significantly better than last season.

That OL is still a little young, but they've got a load of talent and got a chance to play together as the season concluded.  What they did to A.State's defense in the Holiday Bowl was beautiful.

The LB corps has been the defense's weakness since Derrick Johnson graduated.  They should experience some addition-by-subtraction at the position, with some of the vets leaving and some of the younger and more talented players finally getting their shot.

The secondary and interior DL remain big question marks, though.

Not playing Scott Derry anymore should improve the Texas defense...

[drew corleone]

Not playing Scott Derry and Robert Killebrew anymore should improve the Texas defense...

FIFY

[juliogotay]

FIFY

Getting Killebrew off the field will cut down on personal foul penalties, too.

[Kent's Moustache]

Not playing Scott Derry anymore should improve the Texas defense...

I disagree.  Derry was one of our two most consistently effective LBs last season, second only to Muckelroy.  It was a damned shame that they played the same position ("Will").

Derry didn't have the athleticism of a Muckelroy or a Kindle, but he was usually in the right place at the right time, which is more than can be said for most of our other LBs.  If I'd been coaching our defense, then we'd have started Muckelroy ("Will"), Norton ("Mike"), and Derry ("Sam"), with Kindle and Bobino seeing substantial backup time (until Kindle got back from suspension and proved he was ready to supplant Derry).

Killebrew, on the other hand, was an abomination to the game of football.  I might even suggest burning the #40 jersey and withholding its assignment to another player for several years, in order to let the curse wither and die.

[DVauthrin]

I hope we see a much improved defense with the hire of Muschamp.    Also, we need to beat the Ags this year.   Losing two in a row to fran is bad enough.

[juliogotay]

I disagree.  Derry was one of our two most consistently effective LBs last season, second only to Muckelroy.  It was a damned shame that they played the same position ("Will").

Derry didn't have the athleticism of a Muckelroy or a Kindle, but he was usually in the right place at the right time, which is more than can be said for most of our other LBs.  If I'd been coaching our defense, then we'd have started Muckelroy ("Will"), Norton ("Mike"), and Derry ("Sam"), with Kindle and Bobino seeing substantial backup time (until Kindle got back from suspension and proved he was ready to supplant Derry).

Killebrew, on the other hand, was an abomination to the game of football.  I might even suggest burning the #40 jersey and withholding its assignment to another player for several years, in order to let the curse wither and die.

I tend to agree with you about Derry. Not the most gifted athletically but he was usually in position unlike Killebrew who was no where to be seen unless it was jumping on top of a pile late to draw the yellow linen. Hopefully, we'll see alot of Norton, Muckelroy and Robinson this year. I fear Kindle's time is going to be up without him being more than an off-the-bench type.

[drew corleone]

I'll disagree wholeheartedly on Derry. Even when he was in the right place at the right time he didn't make anything happen.

Now someone tell me I'm wrong because he did make that play in Lincoln.

Derry > Killebrew, but that was about it. He was a throwback to the Tyson King era.