BASEBALL AMERICA TOP 30 PROSPECTS 2008

[ranger0251]

 Here is BA TOP 30 and I have to say it is looking mighty weak

1  JR Towles
2 Felipe Paulino
3 Juan Gutierezz
4 Michael Bourn
5 Bud Norris
6 Brad James
7 Chad Reinke
8 Eli Iorg
9 Josh Flores
10 Mitch Einerston
11 Collin Dellome
12 Sergio Perez
13 Chris Johnson
14 Samuel Gervacio
15 Tommy Manzella
16 paul Estrada
17 Max Sapp
18 Jordan Parraz
19 Brian Bogusevic
20 Yordany Ramirez
21 Wesley Wright
22 Devon torrence
23 lou Santangelo
24 Mark Mclemore
25 Robert Bono
26 Koby Clemens
27 Josh Muecke
28 Jonny Ash
29 Matt Cusick
30 Jimmy Van Ostrand


                 Like I said pretty weak what does that say about the farm system. Some of these guys are 26 years old, and some they just  have to get a grip.( Torrence) While others should have never been a prospect in the first place. (Clemens) While others get no love(Trinidad, Douglass, Severino, Ramirez,Qualben and Ash at 28 behind Clemens ) looks like the Mojave desert this system.

[farmstros]

does anyone know BA's qualifications for a prospect?  I'm confused as to how McClemore and Bourn are still prospects

[Duman]

does anyone know BA's qualifications for a prospect?  I'm confused as to how McClemore and Bourn are still prospects

Until they reach the MLB rookie status, they can be considered a prospect.  Bourn is just under that.

[farmstros]

I see that with McClemore and Bourn in regards to AB and IP, they are both under the limit.  However, if my math is right, both are over the 45 days on the active roster limit.  Cot's Contracts shows McClemore with 90 days of MLB service and Bourn with more than one year, even taking out 30 days for September, they are, neither one a rookie.

[ranger0251]

Baseball america are fairweather analysis, they are more often than not whos hot now and parameters like that. If the system is not easy  or glamorous to write about they pay very little attention.

[xcrunner51]

Two things:

1st, who are Robert Bono and Matt Cusick? I've never heard of them before.

2nd, How is Jimmy Van Ostrand ranked so low even though he played in the Futures game last year. He's below fricken Clemens and Lou "50 game suspension that propelled JR Towles to #1 on the list" Santangelo.

[Duman]

Two things:

1st, who are Robert Bono and Matt Cusick? I've never heard of them before.

2nd, How is Jimmy Van Ostrand ranked so low even though he played in the Futures game last year. He's below fricken Clemens and Lou "50 game suspension that propelled JR Towles to #1 on the list" Santangelo.

People who read more and post less know that Robert Bono & Matt Cusick were selected in last years draft which was covered nicely in the draft recap.  Bono pitched in Greeneville and Cusick played in Tri Cities.  They have been covered several times in the Minor League News Pages

As for Van Ostrand, I would have ranked him higher than they did.  Prospect Rankings are opinions.  Different people value different things. Time will well if should have been ranked higher or not.

[pravata]

"What this says about the farm system" is that the farm system has produced the Astros starting right fielder and catcher for 2008.  Players from the farm system were traded to obtain the starting shortstop and closer.  The purpose of the farm system is to produce players for the major league team.  Not to produce a list of acceptable prospects.

[VirtualBob]

"What this says about the farm system" is that the farm system has produced the Astros starting right fielder and catcher for 2008.  Players from the farm system were traded to obtain the starting shortstop and closer.  The purpose of the farm system is to produce players for the major league team.  Not to produce a list of acceptable prospects.

Amen!

As one who follows the prospects, I enjoy seeing them have success wherever they end up.  I also sometimes wish that they could all have success in Houston.  The bottom line, though, is whether the farm system contributes to success in Houston by any means, and those "means" include trades.

[Kent's Moustache]

Here is BA TOP 30 and I have to say it is looking mighty weak

1  JR Towles
2 Felipe Paulino
3 Juan Gutierezz
4 Michael Bourn
5 Bud Norris
6 Brad James
7 Chad Reinke
8 Eli Iorg
9 Josh Flores
10 Mitch Einerston
11 Collin Dellome
12 Sergio Perez
13 Chris Johnson
14 Samuel Gervacio
15 Tommy Manzella
16 paul Estrada
17 Max Sapp
18 Jordan Parraz
19 Brian Bogusevic
20 Yordany Ramirez
21 Wesley Wright
22 Devon torrence
23 lou Santangelo
24 Mark Mclemore
25 Robert Bono
26 Koby Clemens
27 Josh Muecke
28 Jonny Ash
29 Matt Cusick
30 Jimmy Van Ostrand

Doesn't #20 seem low for Yordany Ramirez, in light of the praise that Wade & Co. heaped on him when they gave him a major league contract last fall?

[ranger0251]

Right so basically you are saying is that we purged our minor league system in order to make the major league team better. Let me ask you how well you think that is going to work out? We traded some of our top prospects for a on the decline Major League ss who cannot take steroids anymore who might be jail by midseason? The team was horrible last year  this farm system is a product of horrible talent evaluators and the lack of spending money in the draft, Case in point the top pick 2 years ago and the second round pickin 05. Henriquez was traded for a minor league lefty retread and Sapp is going to eat himself back to florida.You can afford to misjudge 6th and 7th round picks not 1st and 2nd rounders.You do not justget rid of your whole scouting department, and minor league coordinators if they are doing a bang up job
 Does anyone think that JR Towles and Hunter Pence are going to win the division. Pence is a good player who has the chance to be an all star. Towles was not even on Houstons radar until Santangelo went down for drugs. My qoute was in reference to having a minor league system that is in shambles having players who would not be in other organizations top 50 in their top 30? Until the Astros start building from within which requires good scouts and the willingness to spend money in the draft. They are going to just keep trying to patch the holes to make the playoffs.

[VirtualBob]

Right so basically you are saying is that we purged our minor league system in order to make the major league team better. Let me ask you how well you think that is going to work out? We traded some of our top prospects for a on the decline Major League ss who cannot take steroids anymore who might be jail by midseason? The team was horrible last year  this farm system is a product of horrible talent evaluators and the lack of spending money in the draft, Case in point the top pick 2 years ago and the second round pickin 05. Henriquez was traded for a minor league lefty retread and Sapp is going to eat himself back to florida.You can afford to misjudge 6th and 7th round picks not 1st and 2nd rounders.You do not justget rid of your whole scouting department, and minor league coordinators if they are doing a bang up job
 Does anyone think that JR Towles and Hunter Pence are going to win the division. Pence is a good player who has the chance to be an all star. Towles was not even on Houstons radar until Santangelo went down for drugs. My qoute was in reference to having a minor league system that is in shambles having players who would not be in other organizations top 50 in their top 30? Until the Astros start building from within which requires good scouts and the willingness to spend money in the draft. They are going to just keep trying to patch the holes to make the playoffs.

I'm tempted to lead with the tried and true ... Read more, post less.

Gosh ... looks like I yielded to temptation.

With that out of the way, I would suggest that none of your observations above are particularly startling to anyone who has been reading this forum.  The various trades have also been hashed and re-hashed.  And on that topic, you missed the dead horse where we discuss why the holes at the MLB level needed to be filled in the first place.  But I digress.

Here's something interesting you could try that  might shed some light on things for all of us.  Go through all of the Top 30 lists and figure out how many of those prospects started out with the Astros.  That might turn out to be interesting, and even if it does not, it will keep you busy (and not posting) for a while.

[pravata]

Right so basically you are saying is that we purged our minor league system in order to make the major league team better. Let me ask you how well you think that is going to work out? We traded some of our top prospects for a on the decline Major League ss who cannot take steroids anymore who might be jail by midseason? The team was horrible last year  this farm system is a product of horrible talent evaluators and the lack of spending money in the draft, Case in point the top pick 2 years ago and the second round pickin 05. Henriquez was traded for a minor league lefty retread and Sapp is going to eat himself back to florida.You can afford to misjudge 6th and 7th round picks not 1st and 2nd rounders.You do not justget rid of your whole scouting department, and minor league coordinators if they are doing a bang up job
 Does anyone think that JR Towles and Hunter Pence are going to win the division. Pence is a good player who has the chance to be an all star. Towles was not even on Houstons radar until Santangelo went down for drugs. My qoute was in reference to having a minor league system that is in shambles having players who would not be in other organizations top 50 in their top 30? Until the Astros start building from within which requires good scouts and the willingness to spend money in the draft. They are going to just keep trying to patch the holes to make the playoffs.

You think?  I think the Astros have spotted the problem.   I have no idea how it's going to work out.  The Astros concentrate on improving the major league team, by whatever means necessary, not on impressing Baseball America.

[Jacksonian]

I'm tempted to lead with the tried and true ... Read more, post less.

Gosh ... looks like I yielded to temptation.

With that out of the way, I would suggest that none of your observations above are particularly startling to anyone who has been reading this forum.  The various trades have also been hashed and re-hashed.  And on that topic, you missed the dead horse where we discuss why the holes at the MLB level needed to be filled in the first place.  But I digress.

Here's something interesting you could try that  might shed some light on things for all of us.  Go through all of the Top 30 lists and figure out how many of those prospects started out with the Astros.  That might turn out to be interesting, and even if it does not, it will keep you busy (and not posting) for a while.

I'm glad you addressed that.  I wasn't sure I had the energy to.  And the Towles under the radar notion is crap.

[ranger0251]

Wow you think obviously that because you post more you guys have a better common knowledge than someone who does not . Lets see lets go over the studs that the Astros have turned out or lets say traded over the last three years that like you say abound through other minor league systems. Josh Anderson , if he was so good why did they trade him for a average reliever lets see how his speed plays up when he cant get on base for the Braves.Brooks Conrad lol that is all I need to say. We waived jimmy b because he was such a great prospect. Costanzo was not even from our system. Patton all of a sudden went from future ace to number 3 starter at best, and that leaves me with Albers another 3 or 4 at best. Jason Hirsch is also well on his way to becoming a 500 pitcher. I just posted what I thought about the system. You guys need to be objective and not be so fast as to make fun off what other people post. Maybe you guys should put down the cheetos and spend some time with your wife and kids instead of posting 9,000 times.

[ranger0251]

Oh by the way All the other Major League teams called and thanked the Astros for stocking their MLB systems with mediocre pitchers and platoon players. Lets see if you guys can tell me the number of all stars from our farm system that abound through mlb. Should not take you long........

[ranger0251]

Oh and the Towles thing is absolutely true. Idid not mean he was not a prospect, but rather be opn the mlb roster in 2008.Noone thought he was going to be in the major leagues for at least 3 years, and when he did get there be a slightly above average catcher in the J Kendell early days mold with a little pop.  Now I am well on my way to a thousand posts......

[Jacksonian]

Wow you think obviously that because you post more you guys have a better common knowledge than someone who does not . Lets see lets go over the studs that the Astros have turned out or lets say traded over the last three years that like you say abound through other minor league systems. Josh Anderson , if he was so good why did they trade him for a average reliever lets see how his speed plays up when he cant get on base for the Braves.Brooks Conrad lol that is all I need to say. We waived jimmy b because he was such a great prospect. Costanzo was not even from our system. Patton all of a sudden went from future ace to number 3 starter at best, and that leaves me with Albers another 3 or 4 at best. Jason Hirsch is also well on his way to becoming a 500 pitcher. I just posted what I thought about the system. You guys need to be objective and not be so fast as to make fun off what other people post. Maybe you guys should put down the cheetos and spend some time with your wife and kids instead of posting 9,000 times.

I have no idea what point you're trying to make.

[Jacksonian]

Oh by the way All the other Major League teams called and thanked the Astros for stocking their MLB systems with mediocre pitchers and platoon players. Lets see if you guys can tell me the number of all stars from our farm system that abound through mlb. Should not take you long........

Again, point?

[Jacksonian]

Oh and the Towles thing is absolutely true. Idid not mean he was not a prospect, but rather be opn the mlb roster in 2008.Noone thought he was going to be in the major leagues for at least 3 years, and when he did get there be a slightly above average catcher in the J Kendell early days mold with a little pop. 

No one knew anything about when Towles would arrive.  So to say at least 3 years is ignorant.  The Santangelo suspension was unexpected, but Towles progression was always on his own merit.  But we're also in unprecedented areas.  The Astros haven't had back to back seasons this bad in a long time.  So they haven't needed to rush prospects through the system.  They gave Pence a shot quicker than they would have in the past, and thanks to Towles excellent work at Corpus both on an off the field he got a quick promotion; one that wouldn't have happened in years past either.  There is a not so small group of people who think Towles will be better than slightly above average.

Now I am well on my way to a thousand posts......

That's too bad.

[ranger0251]

My point was that someone said I should look to see how many prospects we have given to other organizations. That is why our minor system is so bad. So I just posted what stars we have given in order to become the great organization we are.... lol That was not a post on its own, but in response to someone else that I am wrong on my views that the system SUCKS...(That the only reason it sucks is the astros traded everyone)  Like I said do not have a blog if you are going to have people ridicule what you post. Just meet at someones trailer and hope the dial up internet connection works fry up some burgers rip open some fritos ( I upgraded you from cheetos) and go over how great the Astros are going to do for the next five years. Thank god for the Texans oh wait we are screwed with them too

[VirtualBob]

I'm glad you addressed that.  I wasn't sure I had the energy to.  And the Towles under the radar notion is crap.

... prooving once again that "fools rush in ..."

Sigh.

[Duman]

Doesn't #20 seem low for Yordany Ramirez, in light of the praise that Wade & Co. heaped on him when they gave him a major league contract last fall?

Yep, I think that is low.

[Duman]

I'm tempted to lead with the tried and true ... Read more, post less.

Gosh ... looks like I yielded to temptation.

With that out of the way, I would suggest that none of your observations above are particularly startling to anyone who has been reading this forum.  The various trades have also been hashed and re-hashed.  And on that topic, you missed the dead horse where we discuss why the holes at the MLB level needed to be filled in the first place.  But I digress.

Here's something interesting you could try that  might shed some light on things for all of us.  Go through all of the Top 30 lists and figure out how many of those prospects started out with the Astros.  That might turn out to be interesting, and even if it does not, it will keep you busy (and not posting) for a while.

Ranger.... does his question not merit a response or are you to busy making personal attacks on people you don't know?  Not a way to make a good impression. 

[Duman]

My point was that someone said I should look to see how many prospects we have given to other organizations. That is why our minor system is so bad. So I just posted what stars we have given in order to become the great organization we are.... lol That was not a post on its own, but in response to someone else that I am wrong on my views that the system SUCKS...(That the only reason it sucks is the astros traded everyone)  Like I said do not have a blog if you are going to have people ridicule what you post. Just meet at someones trailer and hope the dial up internet connection works fry up some burgers rip open some fritos ( I upgraded you from cheetos) and go over how great the Astros are going to do for the next five years. Thank god for the Texans oh wait we are screwed with them too
[/quotes]

I think I might be working on my first ignore candidate.

[Froback]

Thank god for the Texans oh wait we are screwed with them too

Ok, Look I have seen lots of misguided people on this site, but this last comment gets you a definite "Troll" stamp.

I mean, where did this one come from?  Bashing the Texans here, screams that you are just looking to stir stuff up.  The funny thing is, most of the serious posters (at least on this area of the Forum) don't give a rat's butt about the Texans, except as off season distractions.

As for the Astros system.  It has been terrible for the last several years.  Nobody here is arguing that.  To go off on the list of top 30 prospect when in the past 2 off seasons the team has traded away basically around 10 or so of the top prospects the team has.  Now, as I stated before the system was pretty crappy before the trades, so these top prospects from the Astros system may not amount to much when compared to say the Dodgers or Diamondbacks, but it is all relative.  They WERE some of the best the Astros had.  PERIOD.

Now the problem is back to the days when "The Hun" was the GM.  Sure he did alot of good the the organization, but he left them with crap.  Timmy, got screwed by that and his lack of public image ability.  Now Wade is trying to step in and basically re-build it all from scratch.  That will take at least 5 yrs.  Maybe more.

And yet, even with all that, he still did manage to land a starting CFer who just might turn out to be exactly what the team needs (or he could bust like Jennings did).  AND he landed Tejada, who with all the other crap swirling around him is still a pretty darn nice player.  Now he isn't what he once was defensively, and maybe there is something to all the steroid talk about him, but he did produce decent numbers last year.  So because the club couldn't find anyone willing to part with decent starting pitching for less than a King's ransom, our new GM did the best he could to make the major league club better.

The Minor League clubs pay the price for that, but then, that is their role.  Hopefully they will be allowed to re-build with better talent than they were able to grab last year, but then last year they lost their top 2 picks to FA signings, and 2 more to stupid choices (in this fan's opinion) by the players they drafted.  So last year's draft class was doomed, not matter what they other guys did.  The honest truth was the draft in 06 was looking pretty good, as was the 05 one.  But that was still full of alot of speculation, as is ALWAYS the case with young players. 

Right now the team is improving its long term minor league system.  And while the levels (AA and AAA) are looking pretty bare, and the 07 draft didn't give much new talent, there is still quite a bit at the two A level clubs that might turn into something.  And you only need one or two to really bloom, to make an impact on the ML club.

And ultimately that is all that matters the the Astros organization.  Can they get new talent in when they need it.  Well they added a starter SS, CF, C and RF to last year's opening day roster all from their farm system.  (trades and promotions)

Name another team that did that, and has the same expectations as the Astros (which at worst is to compete for a division title)? 

So quit acting like a Troll, or if you are indeed a troll, just go away.

[ranger0251]

I'm tempted to lead with the tried and true ... Read more, post less.

Gosh ... looks like I yielded to temptation.

With that out of the way, I would suggest that none of your observations above are particularly startling to anyone who has been reading this forum.  The various trades have also been hashed and re-hashed.  And on that topic, you missed the dead horse where we discuss why the holes at the MLB level needed to be filled in the first place.  But I digress.

Here's something interesting you could try that  might shed some light on things for all of us.  Go through all of the Top 30 lists and figure out how many of those prospects started out with the Astros.  That might turn out to be interesting, and even if it does not, it will keep you busy (and not posting) for a while.

Wow you think obviously that because you post more you guys have a better common knowledge than someone who does not . Lets see lets go over the studs that the Astros have turned out or lets say traded over the last three years that like you say abound through other minor league systems. Josh Anderson , if he was so good why did they trade him for a average reliever lets see how his speed plays up when he cant get on base for the Braves.Brooks Conrad lol that is all I need to say. We waived jimmy b because he was such a great prospect. Costanzo was not even from our system. Patton all of a sudden went from future ace to number 3 starter at best, and that leaves me with Albers another 3 or 4 at best. Jason Hirsch is also well on his way to becoming a 500 pitcher. I just posted what I thought about the system. You guys need to be objective and not be so fast as to make fun off what other people post. Maybe you guys should put down the cheetos and spend some time with your wife and kids instead of posting 9,000 times.  this is what i posted in response to his post that we traded away our stellar minor league system.  It just did not register as a response and posted on its own.  Im not the one who made personal attacks i never demeaned anyone to read more and post less like what was said to me. Then say i should do my research and maybe that will keep me busy from posting and bothering the more informed members of this blog. Sorry i thought that is what a blog is all about, and if anyone thinks those are personal attacks maybe they should get a sense of humor .

[JimR]

Wow you think obviously that because you post more you guys have a better common knowledge than someone who does not . Lets see lets go over the studs that the Astros have turned out or lets say traded over the last three years that like you say abound through other minor league systems. Josh Anderson , if he was so good why did they trade him for a average reliever lets see how his speed plays up when he cant get on base for the Braves.Brooks Conrad lol that is all I need to say. We waived jimmy b because he was such a great prospect. Costanzo was not even from our system. Patton all of a sudden went from future ace to number 3 starter at best, and that leaves me with Albers another 3 or 4 at best. Jason Hirsch is also well on his way to becoming a 500 pitcher. I just posted what I thought about the system. You guys need to be objective and not be so fast as to make fun off what other people post. Maybe you guys should put down the cheetos and spend some time with your wife and kids instead of posting 9,000 times.

maybe you should fuck off.

[Kent's Moustache]

Alright, which one of our regular posters is playing a prank by masquerading as ranger0251?

Seriously, I think we've seen every cliche in the book exhibited in less than 15 posts.  Management knows less about baseball than me.  Check.  You mean regular posters don't know more than me just because you have more posts here than me.  Check.  Cheetos, wives, lives.  Check.  Annoying and cute "text messaging" lingo.  Check.

This has all the makings of a wonderfully ironic prank.  Or, a sincere moron.  Only time will tell.

[VirtualBob]

maybe [he] should fuck off.

And while he's at it, if he is looking for a blog he should head over to the comical.

[pravata]

...As for the Astros system.  It has been terrible for the last several years.  ...

But, in the last 10 years the Astros have been one of the premier teams in the NL.  Expected to win every year.  And the only two players they've brought up from the minors who have had sustained success has been Oswalt and Berkman.  Lidge comes closest out of the Hidalgo, Lane, Ensberg group.  Injuries brought down their pitching prospects. Their best successes have come through trade or free agent.

[VirtualBob]

Alright, which one of our regular posters is playing a prank by masquerading as ranger0251?

Seriously, I think we've seen every cliche in the book exhibited in less than 15 posts.  Management knows less about baseball than me.  Check.  You mean regular posters don't know more than me just because you have more posts here than me.  Check.  Cheetos, wives, lives.  Check.  Annoying and cute "text messaging" lingo.  Check.

This has all the makings of a wonderfully ironic prank.  Or, a sincere moron.  Only time will tell.

You're probably right.  There must be a pony in there somewhere.

[ranger0251]

Wow I have been on this site for 2 years, and never really had the time to post anything being I was a little busy with a little thing called WAR. The minute I get some time in the states I love to follow the Houston Astros my hometown team and go to MILB games throughout the country.Your blog was always a way to keep up with the stros when i was away in some crappy country. Now I am stateside again and have some time on my hands I post and get made fun of. So I return the favor and people get upset. Grow up and get some thicker skin.  By the way the Texans comment was meant to say that it looks like things are miserable on all fronts, not to stir anything up. People have opinions everyones is different thats the good thing about these forums. Not to state that people should read what others have to say and not express their own views.

[VirtualBob]

Wow I have been on this site for 2 years, and never really had the time to post anything being I was a little busy with a little thing called WAR. The minute I get some time in the states I love to follow the Houston Astros my hometown team and go to MILB games throughout the country.Your blog was always a way to keep up with the stros when i was away in some crappy country. Now I am stateside again and have some time on my hands I post and get made fun of. So I return the favor and people get upset. Grow up and get some thicker skin.  By the way the Texans comment was meant to say that it looks like things are miserable on all fronts, not to stir anything up. People have opinions everyones is different thats the good thing about these forums. Not to state that people should read what others have to say and not express their own views.

Everyone has opinions.  True

Not every opinion is informed or even rational.  Feel free to do some research and defend your position.

Alternatively, get used to being mocked.

[Jacksonian]

Wow you think obviously that because you post more you guys have a better common knowledge than someone who does not . Lets see lets go over the studs that the Astros have turned out or lets say traded over the last three years that like you say abound through other minor league systems. Josh Anderson , if he was so good why did they trade him for a average reliever lets see how his speed plays up when he cant get on base for the Braves.Brooks Conrad lol that is all I need to say. We waived jimmy b because he was such a great prospect. Costanzo was not even from our system. Patton all of a sudden went from future ace to number 3 starter at best, and that leaves me with Albers another 3 or 4 at best. Jason Hirsch is also well on his way to becoming a 500 pitcher. I just posted what I thought about the system. You guys need to be objective and not be so fast as to make fun off what other people post. Maybe you guys should put down the cheetos and spend some time with your wife and kids instead of posting 9,000 times.  this is what i posted in response to his post that we traded away our stellar minor league system.  It just did not register as a response and posted on its own.  Im not the one who made personal attacks i never demeaned anyone to read more and post less like what was said to me. Then say i should do my research and maybe that will keep me busy from posting and bothering the more informed members of this blog. Sorry i thought that is what a blog is all about, and if anyone thinks those are personal attacks maybe they should get a sense of humor .

Most of your player opinions are wrong.

This isn't a blog.  This is my discussion forum.  If it were a blog it'd be me, me, me and Duman, Duman, Duman all the time.  This isn't the TZ either.  Stay on topic with informed opinions and deal with any flak you get like a grown-up.  If you can't, then leave.

[ranger0251]

I did respond to your post. Where are all the studs that line the other teams minor league sytems like you said? Give me some names of the players who are all stars that came up in the Astros minor league sytems . Should not take you long like I said . Maybe you should  heed your own words.

[JimR]

I did respond to your post. Where are all the studs that line the other teams minor league sytems like you said? Give me some names of the players who are all stars that came up in the Astros minor league sytems . Should not take you long like I said . Maybe you should  heed your own words.

tick...tick...tick...

[Jacksonian]

I did respond to your post. Where are all the studs that line the other teams minor league sytems like you said? Give me some names of the players who are all stars that came up in the Astros minor league sytems . Should not take you long like I said . Maybe you should  heed your own words.

I'm confused and annoyed. Who said the Astros system has produced all-stars?  I'm getting tired of trying to figure out who you are replying to.

[Froback]

Wow you think obviously that because you post more you guys have a better common knowledge than someone who does not . Lets see lets go over the studs that the Astros have turned out or lets say traded over the last three years that like you say abound through other minor league systems. Josh Anderson , if he was so good why did they trade him for a average reliever lets see how his speed plays up when he cant get on base for the Braves.Brooks Conrad lol that is all I need to say. We waived jimmy b because he was such a great prospect. Costanzo was not even from our system. Patton all of a sudden went from future ace to number 3 starter at best, and that leaves me with Albers another 3 or 4 at best. Jason Hirsch is also well on his way to becoming a 500 pitcher. I just posted what I thought about the system. You guys need to be objective and not be so fast as to make fun off what other people post. Maybe you guys should put down the cheetos and spend some time with your wife and kids instead of posting 9,000 times.  this is what i posted in response to his post that we traded away our stellar minor league system.  It just did not register as a response and posted on its own.  Im not the one who made personal attacks i never demeaned anyone to read more and post less like what was said to me. Then say i should do my research and maybe that will keep me busy from posting and bothering the more informed members of this blog. Sorry i thought that is what a blog is all about, and if anyone thinks those are personal attacks maybe they should get a sense of humor .

ok, no name calling here.

First, try to format your stuff more, it is very hard to read and understand what you are really saying.

Second, Bob's response (which I am guessing what set you off) was basically a tirade on how the Astros have traded away all their prospects, and the ones they still have you insulted in some way or another.  Now, I think that is what got Bob's ire up.

There are a couple of reasons for this causing issues with people around here.  The primary being that is has already been talked about in other threads.  And in those threads it was agreed that the team was basically mortgaging the future for the next couple of years production.  Now, you can agree or disagree with that rationality, but in most cases around here, we have learned to try to move forward since we have no control over what they actually do.  So we try to come up with answers to the "what do they do now?", with respect to the minor league system.  We also try to understand why these moves were made.  This is better than ranting about how stupid they are in the GM's office.  And certainly more productive use of time.

The other main reason that your comments cause issue, is because you are bashing members of the Astros' organization.  We are all for being honest about the players, but generic bashing is not well received.  We have no idea what your background is, therefore you come across as no better than the sports radio call in people who generally have no clue about what is really going on, and just pull crap out of their "ass" and form opinions from it.  Now you might be really smart and knowledgeable about the club and their minor league system.  We certainly have quite a few of those around here, even some with personal knowledge of inside stuff with the club as well as local people to the minor league clubs who even personally know the players.  But if you have this level of knowledge or insight, you lose all credibility by making sweeping comments like you did to Bob.  It was a rant that is typically associated with Sports radio call in types, who think the Astros should have traded Chris Burke and Brad Lidge for Erik Bedard.

I am not saying you ARE that type of person, but your response (based our lack of anything else to go on) would put you in that group.  Just the way things work in the world.  You come into a group a strangers, all they have to go on is our first impressions.  honestly the opening post was very good, or at least informative in that it wasn't posted previously.  So you had the chance to seamlessly join others in good discussions about the system.  This group here isn't quite as hostile as the main board, but they don't tolerate unfounded comments well, because most of them take the Astros minor league system, VERY seriously.  Many of them have been following the minor league system more than the major league club for many years.  They have done so with such passion that they have even made contacts with players and Astros staff to the point were they actually get information that never is talked about in the media.  So you might do well to follow the advise of reading more and posting less... and if not, at least give them the same level of respect you, yourself seem to be asking.  You will find this group much more willing to do the same in return than other message boards, if you only do that.

[ranger0251]

 Explain to me how my player opinions are wrong?        OPINIONS look that up in the dictionary. I am not the one who is complaining about flak, that would be others. In my opinion out of the astros top ten this year 1 has all star promise Paulino. The rest of the list maybe has 1 other Gervacio. That is my opinion so If someone does not like it respond to me like this......   I do not agree with your assesment of the top thirty....... Not like this   READ MORE AND POST LESS  Maybe you should go out and buy alot of Baseball mags and come back when your as smart as me.

[VirtualBob]

I did respond to your post. Where are all the studs that line the other teams minor league sytems like you said? Give me some names of the players who are all stars that came up in the Astros minor league sytems . Should not take you long like I said . Maybe you should  heed your own words.

I know I'm going to regret this, but having become entangled, I'll continue to flail away ...

1.  Go re-read my post.
2.  Note especially this part:

Here's something interesting you could try that  might shed some light on things for all of us.

At that point in the discussion senseless post-fest I still thought you might be paying attention.  It really would be interesting to do something like I suggested and posting the results really would be of interest to many or most of us who frequent this forum.  I admit the post may have been a little paternalistic.  Experience often acts that way when confronted with inexperienced enthusiasm.

Not everything is as it seems.  And inexperienced enthusiasm is often hard to distinguish from willful ignorance.  Only time will tell.

[ranger0251]

I'm tempted to lead with the tried and true ... Read more, post less.

Gosh ... looks like I yielded to temptation.

With that out of the way, I would suggest that none of your observations above are particularly startling to anyone who has been reading this forum.  The various trades have also been hashed and re-hashed.  And on that topic, you missed the dead horse where we discuss why the holes at the MLB level needed to be filled in the first place.  But I digress.

Here's something interesting you could try that  might shed some light on things for all of us.  Go through all of the Top 30 lists and figure out how many of those prospects started out with the Astros.  That might turn out to be interesting, and even if it does not, it will keep you busy (and not posting) for a while.

.....................  Sounds like  condensending talk to me 

[Froback]

But, in the last 10 years the Astros have been one of the premier teams in the NL.  Expected to win every year.  And the only two players they've brought up from the minors who have had sustained success has been Oswalt and Berkman.  Lidge comes closest out of the Hidalgo, Lane, Ensberg group.  Injuries brought down their pitching prospects. Their best successes have come through trade or free agent.

No arguement there, but when comparing prospects (which is mostly based on hype and minor league numbers which are only slightly less hollow than minor league hype), the Astros have been rated pretty low for the past 5 or 6 years... ever since they rose up to something like top 5 or 10 (I forget what it was) they have drooped into the 20s or worse and seem to be falling each year.

So typically you can get more out of your systems (via trades or promotions) if you have a better system.  This isn't always the case, but I would guess it is more common.  The Astros also had a strong core to start with for the past 10 or so years.  But now that Bagwell and Biggio have retired, most of that core has either retired (or is about to) or has moved on via FA.  So now the team was needing things to back-fill into those holes and found that they system didn't have what they needed, or they made choices that cost them.

This year the team had to trade for Bourn, because they traded Taveras away last year in the holes of filling the Pettitte/Clemens loses, which at the time seemed bigger than the hole of losing Taveras.  Now they are missing all 3 spots (CF and 2 starters) and the team traded to fill that one.  Each time they had to give up something to get something, eventually you find yourself with more holes... UNLESS you have been having success in the minor league system to back-fill those holes.  Well the Astros had a couple of terrible drafts in the last few years under The Hun, but 05 and 06 gave everyone hope that maybe that was changing... then 07 happened and it made the 03 and 04 drafts look better, but that didn't actually MAKE them better.  So that was a severe step back, but most of the damage to the 07 draft was done via lost picks from FA signings and some High School picks that turned sour due to unreasonable demands.  Sure Drayton could have opened the wallet and paid $1 for $.50 of product, but he chose to stand firm.  You can argue if that was a good choice or not, but since that was already done, I fail to see the benefit in that discussion.

The results are the same though.  The Short-season clubs stunk!  And actually took all the feelings of improvement we thought the minor league system was going to experience and threw a monkey wrench in it.  But if the 08 draft turns out as good as the 05 and 06 drafts looked, then maybe it is something that can be overcome, but at present the 07 draft is looking like it might be as bad as the 02 draft... and I think someone did a really good write up on this site about how bad that one was.

[ranger0251]

ok, no name calling here.

First, try to format your stuff more, it is very hard to read and understand what you are really saying.

Second, Bob's response (which I am guessing what set you off) was basically a tirade on how the Astros have traded away all their prospects, and the ones they still have you insulted in some way or another.  Now, I think that is what got Bob's ire up.

There are a couple of reasons for this causing issues with people around here.  The primary being that is has already been talked about in other threads.  And in those threads it was agreed that the team was basically mortgaging the future for the next couple of years production.  Now, you can agree or disagree with that rationality, but in most cases around here, we have learned to try to move forward since we have no control over what they actually do.  So we try to come up with answers to the "what do they do now?", with respect to the minor league system.  We also try to understand why these moves were made.  This is better than ranting about how stupid they are in the GM's office.  And certainly more productive use of time.

The other main reason that your comments cause issue, is because you are bashing members of the Astros' organization.  We are all for being honest about the players, but generic bashing is not well received.  We have no idea what your background is, therefore you come across as no better than the sports radio call in people who generally have no clue about what is really going on, and just pull crap out of their "ass" and form opinions from it.  Now you might be really smart and knowledgeable about the club and their minor league system.  We certainly have quite a few of those around here, even some with personal knowledge of inside stuff with the club as well as local people to the minor league clubs who even personally know the players.  But if you have this level of knowledge or insight, you lose all credibility by making sweeping comments like you did to Bob.  It was a rant that is typically associated with Sports radio call in types, who think the Astros should have traded Chris Burke and Brad Lidge for Erik Bedard.

I am not saying you ARE that type of person, but your response (based our lack of anything else to go on) would put you in that group.  Just the way things work in the world.  You come into a group a strangers, all they have to go on is our first impressions.  honestly the opening post was very good, or at least informative in that it wasn't posted previously.  So you had the chance to seamlessly join others in good discussions about the system.  This group here isn't quite as hostile as the main board, but they don't tolerate unfounded comments well, because most of them take the Astros minor league system, VERY seriously.  Many of them have been following the minor league system more than the major league club for many years.  They have done so with such passion that they have even made contacts with players and Astros staff to the point were they actually get information that never is talked about in the media.  So you might do well to follow the advise of reading more and posting less... and if not, at least give them the same level of respect you, yourself seem to be asking.  You will find this group much more willing to do the same in return than other message boards, if you only do that.

  I am not bashing in general just stating the sad state of affairs of the system. Sorry about the way I type It is not a big prerequisite for my profession, and neither is spelling. I have alot of good things to say about some minor leaguers, but am tired of seeing other teams produce player upon player from their system. I follow the minor leagues because players are chasing a dream, and Its fun to watch guys my own age putting forth effort and sweat to reach their goal. I dont like to see the same names year after year because someone picked him in the 1 or 2 round.

[VirtualBob]

Second, Bob's response //snip//

See PM.

[Jacksonian]

No arguement there, but when comparing prospects (which is mostly based on hype and minor league numbers which are only slightly less hollow than minor league hype), the Astros have been rated pretty low for the past 5 or 6 years... ever since they rose up to something like top 5 or 10 (I forget what it was) they have drooped into the 20s or worse and seem to be falling each year.

Something very important to note here.  Those of us who do rankings, rank players based on our own biases and preferences.  Those preferences don't necessarily match what the teams actually see and look for.  And in the end, it's how the teams see the players, not how we see them that's important.

[Jacksonian]

  I am not bashing in general just stating the sad state of affairs of the system. Sorry about the way I type It is not a big prerequisite for my profession, and neither is spelling. I have alot of good things to say about some minor leaguers, but am tired of seeing other teams produce player upon player from their system. I follow the minor leagues because players are chasing a dream, and Its fun to watch guys my own age putting forth effort and sweat to reach their goal. I dont like to see the same names year after year because someone picked him in the 1 or 2 round.

Take a look at a lot of those teams.  Many haven't had the record of success at the major league level the Astros have had.

Add to that, that the Astros drafts from 99-03 didn't produce much (Qualls is probably the best of the bunch), and 05 and 06 still have big questions and there aren't many young players of note in the system.  The 04 draft has already produced 4 players who made it to the majors and more could still make it.

But given that, other teams have been willing to trade for the Astros minor leaguers.  And not just giving up junk to get them either.

[ranger0251]

I'm confused and annoyed. Who said the Astros system has produced all-stars?  I'm getting tired of trying to figure out who you are replying to.

Explain to me how my player opinions are wrong?        OPINIONS look that up in the dictionary. I am not the one who is complaining about flak, that would be others. In my opinion out of the astros top ten this year 1 has all star promise Paulino. The rest of the list maybe has 1 other Gervacio. That is my opinion so If someone does not like it respond to me like this......   I do not agree with your assesment of the top thirty....... Not like this   READ MORE AND POST LESS  Maybe you should go out and buy alot of Baseball mags and come back when your as smart as me.

Most of your player opinions are wrong.

This isn't a blog.  This is my discussion forum.  If it were a blog it'd be me, me, me and Duman, Duman, Duman all the time.  This isn't the TZ either.  Stay on topic with informed opinions and deal with any flak you get like a grown-up.  If you can't, then leave.

[ranger0251]

Take a look at a lot of those teams.  Many haven't had the record of success at the major league level the Astros have had.

Add to that, that the Astros drafts from 99-03 didn't produce much (Qualls is probably the best of the bunch), and 05 and 06 still have big questions and there aren't many young players of note in the system.  The 04 draft has already produced 4 players who made it to the majors and more could still make it.

But given that, other teams have been willing to trade for the Astros minor leaguers.  And not just giving up junk to get them either.

    .......   Agreed, but how do you explain teams like the Red Sox , Braves,Yankees ,Angels and Mariners. They have good scouting departments and are willing to spend on draft picks. I am glad they revamped everything and are going to start fresh.

[Jacksonian]

    .......   Agreed, but how do you explain teams like the Red Sox , Braves,Yankees ,Angels and Mariners. They have good scouting departments and are willing to spend on draft picks. I am glad they revamped everything and are going to start fresh.

Not losing first round picks helps.  The Astros didn't have a first round pick in 3 of the last 5 drafts.  Not sure if those you mentioned did.

But, it's all a crap shoot.  When you draft you have no idea if a prospect will get injured, live up the ability you think they have, washout for personal reasons, get traded away, or picked up via Rule 5 and turn out to be Cy Young caliber...

[ranger0251]

One thing the Astros have not had is compensation picks from losing free agents, but have lost picks by pursuing other teams restricted FA.Those things need to be taken into account when you patch a hole using restricted FA another hole will spring somewhere else usually in the minors.

[Jacksonian]

One thing the Astros have not had is compensation picks from losing free agents, but have lost picks by pursuing other teams restricted FA.Those things need to be taken into account when you patch a hole using restricted FA another hole will spring somewhere else usually in the minors.

You have to offer arbitration to get compensation and sometimes, like in Loretta's case, they take it.  Even if you didn't want them to.  Some you don't want back at the price arb would require, like Pettitte, so they aren't offered arb and the Astros get no compensation.  Miller was offered arb this year and declined.  So when he signs the Astros will receive a supp first round pick.  Others don't merit compensation, like Lamb.  But often, Astros players are dealt before becoming free agents, like Lidge, which is one reason why the Astros don't often end up with compensation. 

[Froback]

Explain to me how my player opinions are wrong?  

I don't think anyone is claiming your opinions are wrong, just the way you give them leads other to think there isn't much thought behind them.  But I will try to help out as best as I can.  So...

Right so basically you are saying is that we purged our minor league system in order to make the major league team better. Let me ask you how well you think that is going to work out? We traded some of our top prospects for a on the decline Major League ss who cannot take steroids anymore who might be jail by midseason?

This is a true statement.  The team DID purge the minor league system in oder to make the major league team better.  Now you can think that it was a bad move, and that would be your opinion, but that was widely discussed:
in this mammoth thread: http://www.orangewhoopass.com/forums/index.php?topic=104551.0
And here: http://www.orangewhoopass.com/forums/index.php?topic=104601.0
and way back here: http://www.orangewhoopass.com/forums/index.php?topic=104298.0

So this is a well discussed topic, but tons of reading to follow it all.  The mammoth thread is probably the best to deal with your specific issue, since it was the last one and the last bits of the farm were sent in that one, thus causing the discussions.

The team was horrible last year  this farm system is a product of horrible talent evaluators and the lack of spending money in the draft, Case in point the top pick 2 years ago and the second round pickin 05. Henriquez was traded for a minor league lefty retread and Sapp is going to eat himself back to florida.You can afford to misjudge 6th and 7th round picks not 1st and 2nd rounders.You do not justget rid of your whole scouting department, and minor league coordinators if they are doing a bang up job

Ok, I don't see much to support your opinion that the Astros have "horrible talent evaluators" other than the team was horrible last year.  I am not sure if you are referring to the Major league club, which wouldn't make much sense considering the "talent evaluators" tend to affect the minor league system (based on who they draft) more than the major league club (which was made up of mostly FA or trade acquisitions).  And then your references were to minor league players, so let's address those. 
The Ralph Henriquez thing was discussed in this thread: http://www.orangewhoopass.com/forums/index.php?topic=104593.0
And basically you get the impression the club probably would have just cut him lose if they couldn't get something for him, based on what they DID receive.  But if you look at his production and the comments scouts and coaches were making about him.  He wasn't developing at all, and in some areas was showing himself to be uncoachable because he wanted his father's approval on everything.  Now, maybe he will turn things around, I know I certainly hope he will because I want everyone the Astros have dealt with to be successful.  But he (Ralph) will have to change to make that happen.
And the Sapp comment showed no insight at all.  I am guessing you read an article somewhere that he was having weight issues.  If this was causing a problem with his development, I assure you the club has addressed this.  They want all of their players to develop.  So if they find something as simple as a weight issue, I am sure they will address it with the player.  It is then up to the player at that point to make the change.  And the comment you made seemed very superficial on the whole.  Had you had something like a recent article about someone asking him about it, or a Astros staffer making a comment on it, I am not sure the relevance of this, not to mention, I doubt he is in the top 10 prospects at this point.  Not everyone's top picks always pan out.  You have to look at the draft as a whole and right now that draft has: a 2nd and 6th rounder doing very well, a 4th, 6th 7th and 8th rounder showing lots of promise.  And that was the 06 draft which means most of them still have a few more years to show something (including Sapp, who is still only going to be 20 in about a month).
As for the lack of money spent has been talked about here (mostly near the end): http://www.orangewhoopass.com/forums/index.php?topic=102446.0

Does anyone think that JR Towles and Hunter Pence are going to win the division. Pence is a good player who has the chance to be an all star. Towles was not even on Houstons radar until Santangelo went down for drugs.

Again, not sure the insight you are trying to provide here.  But yes, I expect the Astros to compete for and hopfully win the NL Central this year with JR Towles and Pence starting for the Astros.  Although I think I am counting on more from people like Berkman, Lee and Tejada than those 2, and certainly more than Towles.  Towles is still very young.  And yes he was on Houston's radar even prior to Santagelo testing positive.  Towles was rated by several sites (not this one) as the top prospect Houston had.  Now, you can argue if that ranking was justified or not, but I am guessing if everyone else thought that much of JR, the Astros "had him on their radar".  Santangelo had just shown more to that point than JR, mostly because of some attitude issues in 06 by JR.  Some of that was comment on in this tread: http://www.orangewhoopass.com/forums/index.php?topic=97655.0

So this comment was one that drew some specific references to you not knowing what you were talking about, and the read-more-post-less comment.  There are many comments about JR to be found over the last couple of years around this site.  Sure Lou's suspension helped JR to climb the ladder faster, but it was JR's production and attitude that really made the difference because an opportunity doesn't mean success.  JR took advantage and made it happen.  Otherwise you can be pretty sure Ausmus would be the primary catcher for 08, because the Astros wouldn't have had any better options.  Now they do (or they hope they do).

My qoute was in reference to having a minor league system that is in shambles having players who would not be in other organizations top 50 in their top 30? Until the Astros start building from within which requires good scouts and the willingness to spend money in the draft. They are going to just keep trying to patch the holes to make the playoffs.

Honestly at the end of the day, what is the GM's job?  It is to build the best team he can to try to win a World Series, right?  Well not 1 minor league player helps the team do that.  They only help the team do that when they either become a major league player, or are used (as trade fodder) to acquire a major league player.  And even then it is questionable if that move (promotion or trade) actually made the impact.  And right now the current GM had no control over what the Astros system was prior to arriving.  Now he did do what could easily be referred to as "clean house" in the minor league system.  But there isn't one prospect that you can say will be a sure fire All-Star.  Patton looks like was the best thing the Astros have given up and he looked like a solid lefty starter, but probably not an ace.  So it isn't like he gave away future Lance Berkman or Roy Oswalt's.  And what makes you think the Astros don't have good scouts?  Because they had a bad 07 draft?  Drafts are a crap shoot at best anyway.  The Astros have had their share of bad drafts (99 and 02), even when they were considered one of the best minor league systems: see this thread: http://www.orangewhoopass.com/forums/index.php?topic=102426.0

So just because you have a bad draft doesn't mean the scouts are bad. 

And finally to reference the patching holes comment, this team has been doing that approach since about 98.  Oddly enough this is also when they starting winning consistently. It is not really all that uncommon that once you break threw into being an annual thread to win divisions and challenge for the World Series, that you (as a team) do what you can to maintain that as long as you can.  And often this results in a big crash at some point.  Thankfully the Astros crash (at least to this point) has been mostly only on the minor league level as the team has still been competitive in most years, recently.  Now you can brush that off that they are in a weak division, which they are, but they also are considered to be one of the favorites in 08 to win the division, and once you get to the playoffs anything can happen (both good and bad).  Look, who thought Colorado was going to make it to the World Series last year?  And guess what, they are not favored to win their division this year either.  So the Astros organization has been trading away potential future capital to win now.  Sometimes that works, sometimes that doesn't.  But my guess is that the people running the team know more about what is best than you or I do.  It is their job after all.  And I am sure they are much like you and I.  They would prefer to keep theirs than lose it.  And if they don't win, they don't keep it.  So they are going to do what they think is best for this team to win, and in order to keep it longer than a year, they had better do what is best to keep the team winning too. 

Normally that means making your farm system produce.  Right now that weak system has produced 3.5 new opening day starters.  Bourn, Pence and Tejada.  I gave Towles .5 because he will be the primary catcher, but Ausmus will be the opening day starer (because Oswalt is pitching).  So that isn't too bad, given the farm system was ranked really low even prior to the mass trade exodus that Wade threw down this offseason.  And it is his job to re-stock it so if needed, he can do it again!

[Andyzipp]

Fantastic.  Opinions by their nature, cannot be wrong.  Outstanding.  Richard Justice will be very pleased.

[ranger0251]

I don't think anyone is claiming your opinions are wrong, just the way you give them leads other to think there isn't much thought behind them.  But I will try to help out as best as I can.  So...
This is a true statement.  The team DID purge the minor league system in oder to make the major league team better.  Now you can think that it was a bad move, and that would be your opinion, but that was widely discussed:
in this mammoth thread: http://www.orangewhoopass.com/forums/index.php?topic=104551.0
And here: http://www.orangewhoopass.com/forums/index.php?topic=104601.0
and way back here: http://www.orangewhoopass.com/forums/index.php?topic=104298.0

So this is a well discussed topic, but tons of reading to follow it all.  The mammoth thread is probably the best to deal with your specific issue, since it was the last one and the last bits of the farm were sent in that one, thus causing the discussions.
Ok, I don't see much to support your opinion that the Astros have "horrible talent evaluators" other than the team was horrible last year.  I am not sure if you are referring to the Major league club, which wouldn't make much sense considering the "talent evaluators" tend to affect the minor league system (based on who they draft) more than the major league club (which was made up of mostly FA or trade acquisitions).  And then your references were to minor league players, so let's address those. 
The Ralph Henriquez thing was discussed in this thread: http://www.orangewhoopass.com/forums/index.php?topic=104593.0
And basically you get the impression the club probably would have just cut him lose if they couldn't get something for him, based on what they DID receive.  But if you look at his production and the comments scouts and coaches were making about him.  He wasn't developing at all, and in some areas was showing himself to be uncoachable because he wanted his father's approval on everything.  Now, maybe he will turn things around, I know I certainly hope he will because I want everyone the Astros have dealt with to be successful.  But he (Ralph) will have to change to make that happen.
And the Sapp comment showed no insight at all.  I am guessing you read an article somewhere that he was having weight issues.  If this was causing a problem with his development, I assure you the club has addressed this.  They want all of their players to develop.  So if they find something as simple as a weight issue, I am sure they will address it with the player.  It is then up to the player at that point to make the change.  And the comment you made seemed very superficial on the whole.  Had you had something like a recent article about someone asking him about it, or a Astros staffer making a comment on it, I am not sure the relevance of this, not to mention, I doubt he is in the top 10 prospects at this point.  Not everyone's top picks always pan out.  You have to look at the draft as a whole and right now that draft has: a 2nd and 6th rounder doing very well, a 4th, 6th 7th and 8th rounder showing lots of promise.  And that was the 06 draft which means most of them still have a few more years to show something (including Sapp, who is still only going to be 20 in about a month).
As for the lack of money spent has been talked about here (mostly near the end): http://www.orangewhoopass.com/forums/index.php?topic=102446.0
Again, not sure the insight you are trying to provide here.  But yes, I expect the Astros to compete for and hopfully win the NL Central this year with JR Towles and Pence starting for the Astros.  Although I think I am counting on more from people like Berkman, Lee and Tejada than those 2, and certainly more than Towles.  Towles is still very young.  And yes he was on Houston's radar even prior to Santagelo testing positive.  Towles was rated by several sites (not this one) as the top prospect Houston had.  Now, you can argue if that ranking was justified or not, but I am guessing if everyone else thought that much of JR, the Astros "had him on their radar".  Santangelo had just shown more to that point than JR, mostly because of some attitude issues in 06 by JR.  Some of that was comment on in this tread: http://www.orangewhoopass.com/forums/index.php?topic=97655.0

So this comment was one that drew some specific references to you not knowing what you were talking about, and the read-more-post-less comment.  There are many comments about JR to be found over the last couple of years around this site.  Sure Lou's suspension helped JR to climb the ladder faster, but it was JR's production and attitude that really made the difference because an opportunity doesn't mean success.  JR took advantage and made it happen.  Otherwise you can be pretty sure Ausmus would be the primary catcher for 08, because the Astros wouldn't have had any better options.  Now they do (or they hope they do).
Honestly at the end of the day, what is the GM's job?  It is to build the best team he can to try to win a World Series, right?  Well not 1 minor league player helps the team do that.  They only help the team do that when they either become a major league player, or are used (as trade fodder) to acquire a major league player.  And even then it is questionable if that move (promotion or trade) actually made the impact.  And right now the current GM had no control over what the Astros system was prior to arriving.  Now he did do what could easily be referred to as "clean house" in the minor league system.  But there isn't one prospect that you can say will be a sure fire All-Star.  Patton looks like was the best thing the Astros have given up and he looked like a solid lefty starter, but probably not an ace.  So it isn't like he gave away future Lance Berkman or Roy Oswalt's.  And what makes you think the Astros don't have good scouts?  Because they had a bad 07 draft?  Drafts are a crap shoot at best anyway.  The Astros have had their share of bad drafts (99 and 02), even when they were considered one of the best minor league systems: see this thread: http://www.orangewhoopass.com/forums/index.php?topic=102426.0

So just because you have a bad draft doesn't mean the scouts are bad. 

And finally to reference the patching holes comment, this team has been doing that approach since about 98.  Oddly enough this is also when they starting winning consistently. It is not really all that uncommon that once you break threw into being an annual thread to win divisions and challenge for the World Series, that you (as a team) do what you can to maintain that as long as you can.  And often this results in a big crash at some point.  Thankfully the Astros crash (at least to this point) has been mostly only on the minor league level as the team has still been competitive in most years, recently.  Now you can brush that off that they are in a weak division, which they are, but they also are considered to be one of the favorites in 08 to win the division, and once you get to the playoffs anything can happen (both good and bad).  Look, who thought Colorado was going to make it to the World Series last year?  And guess what, they are not favored to win their division this year either.  So the Astros organization has been trading away potential future capital to win now.  Sometimes that works, sometimes that doesn't.  But my guess is that the people running the team know more about what is best than you or I do.  It is their job after all.  And I am sure they are much like you and I.  They would prefer to keep theirs than lose it.  And if they don't win, they don't keep it.  So they are going to do what they think is best for this team to win, and in order to keep it longer than a year, they had better do what is best to keep the team winning too. 

Normally that means making your farm system produce.  Right now that weak system has produced 3.5 new opening day starters.  Bourn, Pence and Tejada.  I gave Towles .5 because he will be the primary catcher, but Ausmus will be the opening day starer (because Oswalt is pitching).  So that isn't too bad, given the farm system was ranked really low even prior to the mass trade exodus that Wade threw down this offseason.  And it is his job to re-stock it so if needed, he can do it again!

I think Patton will be a decent lefty starter in the majors. he is an example of opening your check book to get a player. he dropped because of signability demands and Houston picked him and went over the slot money..... Good move   The Sapp thing is not from an article , but from personal observation(my cousin lives near Tri City whom i visited in 06, and I was in Ft. Cambell KY for a month this past year and attended Legends games when i could) He has a soft body and can tell he does not take care of himself. It will be interesting to see how he handles the repeat of LEX if he struggles the outlook is not bright.The Towles comment was only in reference to when he was to arrive in Houston I personally think he will struggle at the MLB level the first few seasons. lol In my opinion

[VirtualBob]

Fantastic.  Opinions by their nature, cannot be wrong.  Outstanding.  Richard Justice will be very pleased.

They can only be wrong if the pundit is schizophrenic or a compulsive liar.

They can, however, be uninformed, irrational, unfounded, etc.

[Jacksonian]

I think Patton will be a decent lefty starter in the majors. he is an example of opening your check book to get a player. he dropped because of signability demands and Houston picked him and went over the slot money..... Good move   The Sapp thing is not from an article , but from personal observation(my cousin lives near Tri City whom i visited in 06, and I was in Ft. Cambell KY for a month this past year and attended Legends games when i could) He has a soft body and can tell he does not take care of himself. It will be interesting to see how he handles the repeat of LEX if he struggles the outlook is not bright.The Towles comment was only in reference to when he was to arrive in Houston I personally think he will struggle at the MLB level the first few seasons. lol In my opinion

Don't be surprised if Sapp's in Salem.

[VirtualBob]

Don't be surprised if Sapp's in Salem.

[hijack]
That's actualy one of the interesting issues to be decided in ST this year (IMO) ...

If Q takes an assignment to AAA, you basically have House/Quintero at RR, leaving Santangelo/??? at CC.  I figure "? ? ?" would probably be Mackor and/or Lopez.  (Mackor appears to me to be on the Danny Fatheree, Chris Tremie route to coaching, and Lopex continues to hang on without much future that I can see.)

So assuming that Clemens learns enough about catching to get a shot when the season opens, that leaves him, Sapp & perrenial non-prospect Justin Tellam to fight for time at Salem.  If Q opts for free agency, we might see a Mcakor/Lopez/Tellam trio at CC (which would set few offensive records and probably some pretty offensive defensive ones), but other than that, one of them goes back to Lexington.

My guess is that Tellam is the odd man out; perhaps to split time in Lexington with Pestana and/or Iacono (now that Ralphie has left the building).  Of course, it may just be the end of the line for Justin.  I really don't know much about the SS guys from last year, though. 
[/hijack] with appropriate apologies.

Edited to remove offending smiley face

[Froback]

[hijack]
That's actualy one of the interesting issues to be decided in ST this year (IMO) ...

If Q takes an assignment to AAA, you basically have House/Quintero at RR, leaving Santangelo/??? at CC.  I figure "" would probably be Mackor and/or Lopez.  (Mackor appears to me to be on the Danny Fatheree, Chris Tremie route to coaching, and Lopex continues to hang on without much future that I can see.)

So assuming that Clemens learns enough about catching to get a shot when the season opens, that leaves him, Sapp & perrenial non-prospect Justin Tellam to fight for time at Salem.  If Q opts for free agency, we might see a Mcakor/Lopez/Tellam trio at CC (which would set few offensive records and probably some pretty offensive defensive ones), but other than that, one of them goes back to Lexington.

My guess is that Tellam is the odd man out; perhaps to split time in Lexington with Pestana and/or Iacono (now that Ralphie has left the building).  Of course, it may just be the end of the line for Justin.  I really don't know much about the SS guys from last year, though. 
[/hijack] with appropriate apologies.

Sometimes the level of depth with which you analyze things like which catcher will be at which level and why makes me go....

"You guys need some help!  This is a serious illness you suffer from!"

But then I think... if they are doing this you don't have too, as well... and then I go

Thank you!

so

Thank you!

[VirtualBob]

Sometimes the level of depth with which you analyze things like which catcher will be at which level and why makes me go....

"You guys need some help!  This is a serious illness you suffer from!"

But then I think... if they are doing this you don't have too, as well... and then I go

Thank you!

so

Thank you!

I think I've already admitted to my sickness.  I first noticed the symptoms as a fan of a different team in a different league in a different era.  I was well into a discussion of why Ray Oyler's glove justified his .135 batting average and why I thought it was a mistake to move Mickey Stanley to SS even if it did mean getting both Kaline & Northrup into the lineup at the same time.  I finally picked up on the fact that nobody else in the conversation had a clue who Ray Oyler was.  Nor did they have any feeling for just how awful .135 was. 

It's so much nicer to be virtually embarrassed in a forum like this one.

You're welcome, by the way.

[Duman]

I expect Sapp/Clemens to split the C & DH duties similar to the way Sapp/Henriquez did in Lex. 

I also am hopeful that Sapp will not be stretching the buttons on his uni this year or else he may be headed to 1st base.

[ranger0251]

Don't be surprised if Sapp's in Salem.

If they put him in Salem and he does not respond it will further delay his career. Put him in a chance to succeed he was not able to play rookie ball because Ralphie had to repeat and they both needed playing time. Let him grow into the Pos no need to rush him let him gain some confidence.

[Duman]

If they put him in Salem and he does not respond it will further delay his career. Put him in a chance to succeed he was not able to play rookie ball because Ralphie had to repeat and they both needed playing time. Let him grow into the Pos no need to rush him let him gain some confidence.

Sapp handled the NYPL fine.  Numbers weren't great but development was fine. 

Last year was conditioning and injuries - which was probably related to conditioning.  I don' think the youngster suffers from lack of confidence (based on my observations of him)

[MusicMan]

If they put him in Salem and he does not respond it will further delay his career. Put him in a chance to succeed he was not able to play rookie ball because Ralphie had to repeat and they both needed playing time. Let him grow into the Pos no need to rush him let him gain some confidence.

I think the problem is that Sapp is growing OUT of the position.