Author Topic: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)  (Read 22267 times)

T. J.

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Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« on: December 26, 2007, 09:13:40 pm »
The best movie of the year is.....

Juno.


Followed closely behind by No Country for Old Men. 

But go see Juno. 

Carry on.

CarolinaStro

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2007, 09:41:29 pm »
Saw No Country today...best movie I have seen this year easy.  Interesting themes and you gotta love the cattle gun.

remy

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2007, 10:14:28 pm »
Into the Wild was pretty damn good too.  Was surprised that the only golden globe nods it got were music related.

I also really want to see the above mentioned ones.

Fredia

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2007, 10:21:12 pm »
wow , interesting well thought out.. are you sure this is the tz
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toddthebod

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2007, 11:36:19 pm »
wow , interesting well thought out.. are you sure this is the tz

I'm not sure how this thread is well thought out, but I saw two movies this weekend and I am more than happy to share my views.  I loved (and I mean loved) Charlie Wilson's War -- even though Julia Roberts sounded nothing like she was from Houston.  But Tom Hanks is excellent and Philip Seymour Hoffman proved again that he is one of the best supporting actors around.  The dialogue is quick and funny thanks to Aaron Sorkin and while there is only a little nudity, Amy Adams (also in Talladega Nights) is enough eye-candy for my tastes.

The other movie I saw was Alvin and the Chipmunks (I wanted to take the kids to see the Golden Compass, but once again, I was overruled).  The fact that Jason Lee continues to find work is mind-boggling to me.  He hasn't made a decent movie since Mallrats and Chasing Amy, and the latter is now ten years old.  Also, his house had a surfboard featured prominently and since there are no surfing scenes in the movie, all I could think was that Jason wants to show how cool he is and that he still surfs.  Or he just insisted on there being a surfboard as a prop so he could take it home at the end.  And what the fuck was David Cross thinking when he signed up for this one.   If you think that a couple of Chipmunks singing Funky Town is amusing, then this is your kind of movie.  Otherwise, move along.     
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JaneDoe

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2007, 11:45:14 pm »
My kids loved Alvin and the Chipmunks.  I begged off and let dad take them.
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chandler44

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2007, 12:30:35 am »
Quote
The fact that Jason Lee continues to find work is mind-boggling to me.  He hasn't made a decent movie since Mallrats and Chasing Amy, and the latter is now ten years old.

Lee did a good job of playing the lead singer in Almost Famous.  He's also perfect in the Earl role on his TV series.
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Anit

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2007, 09:57:50 am »
i didnt really think juno was as good as people are playing it up to be..its fine, its good, but its not best movie of the year..im going all the way back to september and putting 3:10 to yuma as my best movie of the year...

apparently there will be blood is supposed to be one of the best movies in a long long time..so im just waiting to see that, whenever its going to be released wide..

EasTexAstro

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2007, 10:08:54 am »
No love for Ratatouille?
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VirtualBob

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2007, 10:12:18 am »
...  I loved (and I mean loved) Charlie Wilson's War -- even though Julia Roberts sounded nothing like she was from Houston.  But Tom Hanks is excellent and Philip Seymour Hoffman proved again that he is one of the best supporting actors around.  The dialogue is quick and funny thanks to Aaron Sorkin and while there is only a little nudity, Amy Adams (also in Talladega Nights) is enough eye-candy for my tastes.
    

Saw that one last night.  EXCELLENT.  Hoffman really steals scenes whenever he appears; Hanks is Hanks; and the movie manages to be both entertaining and seriously thought-provoking at the same time.  Gotta love the "jail bait" lines, too.
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otterjb

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2007, 10:52:21 am »
Yep, Charlie Wilson's War was damn good. The book is excellent, too, with a lot more detail and side story. I liked how they took a subject as heavy as that and made it a fun. Hoffman was great. The T&A didn't hurt either.

Craig

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2007, 12:55:05 pm »
Yep, Charlie Wilson's War was damn good. The book is excellent, too, with a lot more detail and side story. I liked how they took a subject as heavy as that and made it a fun. Hoffman was great. The T&A didn't hurt either.

I was a reporter in Lufkin in the late '80s and I interviewed Charlie Wilson several times. I really enjoyed the movie and thought Tom Hanks did a great job, but he still didn't quite capture the swagger and "Tall Texan" attitude of Charlie. I'm not sure anyone could. And the real "Charlie's Angels" were hotter and classier than the ones in the movie.

Matt

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2007, 02:16:19 pm »
I missed out on 3:10 to Yuma and have been wanting to see it bad for months now.

LonghornCDR

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2007, 02:22:38 pm »
Lee did a good job of playing the lead singer in Almost Famous. 

I hope this was a joke that I didn't get, but that's not Jason Lee.  Remember, imdb is just a click away.
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Trey

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2007, 02:35:57 pm »
I hope this was a joke that I didn't get, but that's not Jason Lee.  Remember, imdb is just a click away.

Um.  It is.  And it is: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0181875/
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

Andyzipp

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2007, 02:50:26 pm »
Um.  It is.  And it is: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0181875/

Wasn't he the lead guitarist?  Cruddup was the lead singer.

LonghornCDR

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2007, 02:52:02 pm »
Wasn't he the lead guitarist?  Cruddup was the lead singer.

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Trey

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2007, 03:01:30 pm »
Wasn't he the lead guitarist?  Cruddup was the lead singer.

No, you got it flipped.  Crudup was the "star" lead guitarist.  Lee was the singer.  He has that whole monologue where he rails about "finding that one guy who isn't getting off and getting him off"
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

LonghornCDR

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2007, 03:01:44 pm »
Actually, my memory of the movie was jacked up.  Mea Culpa.  Crudup is the guitarist and Lee is the lead singer.  Looks like I get to be the asshole today.  
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Trey

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2007, 03:07:19 pm »
Actually, my memory of the movie was jacked up.  Mea Culpa.  Crudup is the guitarist and Lee is the lead singer.  Looks like I get to be the asshole today.  

Eh, it gave me a reason to go read all the trivia on imdb about it.  Here's a clip if anyone still doubts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whuCSE6734o
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

chandler44

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2007, 03:30:41 pm »
I hope this was a joke that I didn't get, but that's not Jason Lee.  Remember, imdb is just a click away.
Actually it is Jason Lee.  Remember, IMDB is only a click away ;)  (or if you have Firefox running, you can easily add it to your drop down search box).
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Limey

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2007, 03:31:41 pm »
No, you got it flipped.  Crudup was the "star" lead guitarist.  Lee was the singer.  He has that whole monologue where he rails about "finding that one guy who isn't getting off and getting him off"

"I work just as hard or harder than anybody on that stage. You know what I do?  I connect. I get people off. I look for the guy who isn't getting off, and I make him get off!"
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

astrojo

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2007, 09:26:42 am »
FYI the History Channel is airing a documentary about Charlie Wilson today from 1-3pm.

And yes, it's about the Texas congressman, NOT the lead singer of the Gap Band (You Dropped a Bomb on Me).

John F.

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2007, 01:22:23 pm »
I still haven't seen 'I Am Legend'.  Any word if it's worth the 8 dollars?

Noe

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2007, 01:54:04 pm »
I still haven't seen 'I Am Legend'.  Any word if it's worth the 8 dollars?

Check in on Sunday (night), I'll let you know.  My oldest son and I will be going to the movies that afternoon to see it.

John F.

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2007, 02:03:29 pm »
Sounds good. I'll be here.

Limey

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2007, 02:34:50 pm »
I still haven't seen 'I Am Legend'.  Any word if it's worth the 8 dollars?

How the hell do you know what I have tattooed on my penis?!!
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Andyzipp

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2007, 02:53:47 pm »
How the hell do you know what I have tattooed on my penis?!!

Those Chinese can paint anything on a grain of rice.

otterjb

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2007, 03:25:02 pm »
$8? In crumpled, dirty bills, clumsily doled out behind a rusty dumpster in a dark alleyway, grime dripping down from the fire escapes? 


GreatBagwellsBeard

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2007, 03:29:28 pm »
How the hell do you know what I have tattooed on my penis?!!

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drew corleone

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2007, 05:57:50 pm »
I enjoyed Juno... snappy dialogue and likeable characters. Ellen Page did an outstanding job; as much as I liked the script, I thought her delivery was just as good.

Curly

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2007, 09:35:41 pm »
Those Chinese can paint anything on a grain of rice.
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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2007, 11:15:30 pm »
I thought for sure "Charlie Wilson's War" would be opening last weekend at the little two-screen theater in Jasper that looks like an overgrown Dairy Queen.  Alas, it was not, so my parents and I went to see "National Treasure" instead.  It was OK, although very similar to the first one.  At least it didn't cost Dad a lot.  All three of us got tickets, popcorn and Cokes for just under $25.

Bench

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2007, 10:16:36 am »
I still haven't seen 'I Am Legend'.  Any word if it's worth the 8 dollars?

Laughably awful.
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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2007, 11:11:48 pm »
Laughably awful.

Really?  I just had a reply on my Yankees site saying it was unbelievably good.  I guess I'll have to go check it out for myself.

Craig

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2007, 11:29:17 pm »
I enjoyed Juno... snappy dialogue and likeable characters. Ellen Page did an outstanding job; as much as I liked the script, I thought her delivery was just as good.

I saw Juno tonight and really liked it a lot. I thought it was much better than Knocked Up, which I didn't care for at all. Ellen Page was excellent.

Rebel Jew

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2007, 12:26:17 pm »
I saw Juno tonight and really liked it a lot. I thought it was much better than Knocked Up, which I didn't care for at all. Ellen Page was excellent.

knocked up = chick flick in disguise; i'm still seething about the dirty trick they played on me with that one.  luckily, superbad made up for it.

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2007, 12:27:46 pm »
I was a reporter in Lufkin in the late '80s and I interviewed Charlie Wilson several times. I really enjoyed the movie and thought Tom Hanks did a great job, but he still didn't quite capture the swagger and "Tall Texan" attitude of Charlie. I'm not sure anyone could. And the real "Charlie's Angels" were hotter and classier than the ones in the movie.


"Timber Charlie", some of the snarkier pundits called him.  Like all he amounted to was some puppet of the Temples, or Kirbys.  It was a clever nickname I suppose, but it only described about 5% of what Charlie Wilson was, as we now all know.  Ah, the good old days, when your congressman could snort coke in a hot tub in Vegas, keep blondes stashed from sea to shining sea, and still manage to get himself involved in some free lance international espionage that ended up changing the world, forever maybe.  Nowadays he'd have been run to gound and out of office for the women and the coke before he ever got to pull off his John Wayne-James Bond act.

I thought it was funny those times Donna Peterson ran against him in the early '90s, because in almost any other scenario, one would take her to be another one of Charlie's "lady friends."  She fit the profile.

The Gap Band ("Burn Rubber") Charlie Wilson liked wearing a cowboy hat, too.  Well, a cowboy hat, after a fashion.  He probably didn't know from Afghanistan, either, and he started out like all he aspired to was being a low-grade P-Funk imitator; but he did all right, in the end.  I guess he still pops up in the odd Snoop Dog video, too.  That makes two Charlie Wilsons to be fond of.

VirtualBob

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2007, 03:47:18 pm »
Really?  I just had a reply on my Yankees site saying it was unbelievably good.  I guess I'll have to go check it out for myself.

You're lucky the spleen-eater is taking a holiday.  At first glance, this almost looks like you do not fit in here.
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homer

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2007, 04:34:32 pm »
You're lucky the spleen-eater is taking a holiday.  At first glance, this almost looks like you do not fit in here.

Mighty sensitive.
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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2007, 06:10:18 pm »
Mighty sensitive.

His Yankmes site?  !!
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Craig

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2007, 06:18:49 pm »

I thought it was funny those times Donna Peterson ran against him in the early '90s, because in almost any other scenario, one would take her to be another one of Charlie's "lady friends."  She fit the profile.


Ha, I remember her. It was like the Republicans finally thought they'd found Charlie's Achilles Heel by running a hot woman against him. And a helicopter pilot no less, which was just awesome considering the whole Stinger thing. It was totally against Charlie's nature to talk shit about a hot woman, and he seemed kind of confused by it. I think she ran against him again, but I'd moved out of Texas by then.

Ron Brand

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2007, 02:52:49 am »
All this political talk is obscuring the fact that Control is the feel-good rollicking laff riot of the season.
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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2007, 02:17:12 pm »
Really?  I just had a reply on my Yankees site saying it was unbelievably good.  I guess I'll have to go check it out for myself.

I went with my fourteen year old son.  At first, I did it to be with my son moreso than the movie itself.  My son wants to read Richard Matheson's book, with my own reservations if he's ready to read such a novel.  He's been graded out to have a collegiate level reading, so he's read some pretty heady novels for quite some time.  This time he wanted to go see this particular movie because of his interest in the book.

Well, knowing the little I know about Matheson's book, I thought I should go with him to make sure he understood some things.  To my surprise, it's nothing like Matheson's book... ironically using the title "I Am Legend" 180 degrees differently than Matheson's intended.  So did we enjoy the movie?

Yes, we both did.

This movie was a bit dark but that was intentional in my own mind.  What became the main focus of the film was the slow downward spiral of Robert Neville due to the isolation, loneliness, frustration and what turns out to be depression towards the end.  Will Smith turns in a very credible performance as Neville, but I imagine that with the name comes some of the star power and true to form, some of the scenes were highly unnecessary in my mind.  What I personally thought was a very bad idea was the CGI scenes with the vampires.  Too much and way overdone.  Had they just kept to the main focus of Neville's own downward spiral, the movie would've been a top grade and very impressionable movie.  It is as if the producers or movie company decided to hedge their bet with this story with the star power name and the computer graphics to make more of a splash with the younger audience while trying hard to maintain the main message and focus.

An example to me was perhaps the scariest part of the movie and this had almost a Hitchcock feel to it.  Darkness, build up anxiety, left to the imagination of the audience.  I'm sure all of us in the theater had different emotions while this scene played out (Neville goes into a dark building to rescue his dog).  Too bad at the end, they decided to introduce the CGI vampires.  Had they stayed with the darkness, left to my own imagination, I would've come up with much more frightening monsters.  Instead, they took me off the hook with their CGI and frankly, they were not scary at all.  Dark shadows, partial views of a vampire, my own imagination would make for a much better movie. 

Do they believe that they need to lean heavily nowadays on CGI to show us what is scary?  I think it's a crutch and truth be told, my son can conger up scarier monsters in his head than what they showed. So big drawback in a sense, but not enough to distract me from enjoying the Will Smith performance.  In another scene with Neville and his dog (one of the most important scenes in the movie), the director gets it right and the focus stays on Smith and his angst.  I was very impressed with this and after the movie felt that had the director used similar scenes for Neville with the vampires, like he did with Neville and the dog and also the mannequins (I don't want to spoil the movie for anyone so I'm trying hard to keep some things to myself), the movie would've been a smash hit.

As it is, the movie is just good (overall).

This is a message/drama film that mistakenly thought it should be an action film.  Stuck between drama and action is not a good place to be for most films.  Few carry that through well enough.  I forgave the action part of the movie because the drama had me all the way.  In the end, my son and I went to dinner, talked at length about the message of the film, the drama, and very little about the action.  Neither one of us were impressed by that part.  Also, when your son and you get a chance to talk Bob Marley, then the movie has done well by me.

My opinion, go see the movie, forgive the action, enjoy the drama.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 12:17:11 pm by Noe in Austin »

Trey

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2007, 02:39:23 pm »
The Gap Band ("Burn Rubber") Charlie Wilson liked wearing a cowboy hat, too.  Well, a cowboy hat, after a fashion.  He probably didn't know from Afghanistan, either, and he started out like all he aspired to was being a low-grade P-Funk imitator; but he did all right, in the end.  I guess he still pops up in the odd Snoop Dog video, too.  That makes two Charlie Wilsons to be fond of.

I love the Gap Band.  At some point in high school I became conviced that Robert "Simply Irresistible" and "Addicted to Love" Palmer was their lead singer.  I have no idea how I came of that notion or why logic and my ear didn't kick it out of my head, but there it was.
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

Bench

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2007, 09:54:02 pm »
I went with my fourteen year old son.  At first, I did it to be with my son moreso than the movie itself.  My son wants to read Robert Matheson's book, with my own reservations if he's ready to read such a novel.  He's been graded out to have a collegiate level reading, so he's read some pretty heady novels for quite some time.  This time he wanted to go see this particular movie because of his interest in the book.

Well, knowing the little I know about Matheson's book, I thought I should go with him to make sure he understood some things.  To my surprise, it's nothing like Matheson's book... ironically using the title "I Am Legend" 180 degrees differently than Matheson's intended.  So did we enjoy the movie?

Yes, we both did.

This movie was a bit dark but that was intentional in my own mind.  What became the main focus of the film was the slow downward spiral of Robert Neville due to the isolation, loneliness, frustration and what turns out to be depression towards the end.  Will Smith turns in a very credible performance as Neville, but I imagine that with the name comes some of the star power and true to form, some of the scenes were highly unnecessary in my mind.  What I personally thought was a very bad idea was the CGI scenes with the vampires.  Too much and way overdone.  Had they just kept to the main focus of Neville's own downward spiral, the movie would've been a top grade and very impressionable movie.  It is as if the producers or movie company decided to hedge their bet with this story with the star power name and the computer graphics to make more of a splash with the younger audience while trying hard to maintain the main message and focus.

An example to me was perhaps the scariest part of the movie and this had almost a Hitchcock feel to it.  Darkness, build up anxiety, left to the imagination of the audience.  I'm sure all of us in the theater had different emotions while this scene played out (Neville goes into a dark building to rescue his dog).  Too bad at the end, they decided to introduce the CGI vampires.  Had they stayed with the darkness, left to my own imagination, I would've come up with much more frightening monsters.  Instead, they took me off the hook with their CGI and frankly, they were not scary at all.  Dark shadows, partial views of a vampire, my own imagination would make for a much better movie. 

Do they believe that they need to lean heavily nowadays on CGI to show up what is scary?  I think it's a crutch and truth be told, my son can conger up scarier monsters in his head than what they showed. So big drawback in a sense, but not enough to distract me from enjoying the Will Smith performance.  In another scene with Neville and his dog (one of the most important scenes in the movie), the director gets it right and the focus stays one Smith and his angst.  I was very impressed with this and after the movie felt that had the director used similar scenes for Neville with the vampires, like he did with Neville and the dog and also the mannequins (I don't want to spoil the movie for anyone so I'm trying hard to keep some things to myself), the movie would've been a smash hit.

As it is, the movie is just good (overall).

This is a message/drama film that mistakenly thought it should be an action film.  Stuck between drama and action is not a good place to be for most films.  Few carry that through well enough.  I forgave the action part of the movie because the drama had me all the way.  In the end, my son and I went to dinner, talked at length about the message of the film, the drama, and very little about the action.  Neither one of us were impressed by that part.  Also, when your son and you get a chance to talk Bob Marley, then the movie has done well by me.

My opinion, go see the movie, forgive the action, enjoy the drama.

That's fair but in my view overly generous. I left the film wondering why they didn't bother to tell any of the many interesting stories that were hinted at. In my view, if it wasn't Will Smith it would have been really awful. He's a good enough actor and generally likeable enough to keep me paying attention.
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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #46 on: December 31, 2007, 10:32:06 pm »
I went with my fourteen year old son.  At first, I did it to be with my son moreso than the movie itself.  My son wants to read Robert Matheson's book, with my own reservations if he's ready to read such a novel.  He's been graded out to have a collegiate level reading, so he's read some pretty heady novels for quite some time.  This time he wanted to go see this particular movie because of his interest in the book.

Well, knowing the little I know about Matheson's book, I thought I should go with him to make sure he understood some things.  To my surprise, it's nothing like Matheson's book... ironically using the title "I Am Legend" 180 degrees differently than Matheson's intended.  So did we enjoy the movie?

Yes, we both did.

This movie was a bit dark but that was intentional in my own mind.  What became the main focus of the film was the slow downward spiral of Robert Neville due to the isolation, loneliness, frustration and what turns out to be depression towards the end.  Will Smith turns in a very credible performance as Neville, but I imagine that with the name comes some of the star power and true to form, some of the scenes were highly unnecessary in my mind.  What I personally thought was a very bad idea was the CGI scenes with the vampires.  Too much and way overdone.  Had they just kept to the main focus of Neville's own downward spiral, the movie would've been a top grade and very impressionable movie.  It is as if the producers or movie company decided to hedge their bet with this story with the star power name and the computer graphics to make more of a splash with the younger audience while trying hard to maintain the main message and focus.

An example to me was perhaps the scariest part of the movie and this had almost a Hitchcock feel to it.  Darkness, build up anxiety, left to the imagination of the audience.  I'm sure all of us in the theater had different emotions while this scene played out (Neville goes into a dark building to rescue his dog).  Too bad at the end, they decided to introduce the CGI vampires.  Had they stayed with the darkness, left to my own imagination, I would've come up with much more frightening monsters.  Instead, they took me off the hook with their CGI and frankly, they were not scary at all.  Dark shadows, partial views of a vampire, my own imagination would make for a much better movie. 

Do they believe that they need to lean heavily nowadays on CGI to show up what is scary?  I think it's a crutch and truth be told, my son can conger up scarier monsters in his head than what they showed. So big drawback in a sense, but not enough to distract me from enjoying the Will Smith performance.  In another scene with Neville and his dog (one of the most important scenes in the movie), the director gets it right and the focus stays one Smith and his angst.  I was very impressed with this and after the movie felt that had the director used similar scenes for Neville with the vampires, like he did with Neville and the dog and also the mannequins (I don't want to spoil the movie for anyone so I'm trying hard to keep some things to myself), the movie would've been a smash hit.

As it is, the movie is just good (overall).

This is a message/drama film that mistakenly thought it should be an action film.  Stuck between drama and action is not a good place to be for most films.  Few carry that through well enough.  I forgave the action part of the movie because the drama had me all the way.  In the end, my son and I went to dinner, talked at length about the message of the film, the drama, and very little about the action.  Neither one of us were impressed by that part.  Also, when your son and you get a chance to talk Bob Marley, then the movie has done well by me.

My opinion, go see the movie, forgive the action, enjoy the drama.

So does Neville die in the end?  that's the whole point of the book.
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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #47 on: January 01, 2008, 01:41:02 am »
I love the Gap Band.  At some point in high school I became conviced that Robert "Simply Irresistible" and "Addicted to Love" Palmer was their lead singer.  I have no idea how I came of that notion or why logic and my ear didn't kick it out of my head, but there it was.


Pretty funny, I am not sure how you got an Englishman who favored Saville Row suits mixed up with the Wilson brothers, either.  But I am glad to be reminded that in the days before rigidly formatted, tightly playlisted commercial radio it was actually possible to get two fairly different acts so mixed up.

FWIW, I first became familiar with the Gap Band with the song "I Don't Believe You Wanna Get Up And Dance" (the hook line was "Oops upside your head').  It was a catchy enough song for the late 1970's, but so derivative of Parliament-Funkadelic that I wrote the band off as amusing but minor imitators.  Then they came out with the LP that had "Burn Rubber" on it, and I liked every song on that LP.  The fellows had got their creative traction, I guess you could say.  I still whip out my 12". . . er, ten-minute version of "You Dropped A Bomb On Me" every once in awhile, when I am in a certain mood.

I liked the early Robert Palmer stuff, when he was doing a lot of Little Feat covers, reggae-influenced stuff (Pressure Drop), Allen Toussaint (Sneaking Sally Thru The Alley), even Gary Numan/Tubeway Army ("I Dream Of Wires").  The later MTV-influenced stuff with the painted-face models was silly, but that is probably how most people will remember him.

This is the first time I have thought of him in conjuction with The Gap Band, though.  I have you to thank for that.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2008, 01:42:52 am by strosrays »

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #48 on: January 01, 2008, 12:11:48 pm »
That's fair but in my view overly generous. I left the film wondering why they didn't bother to tell any of the many interesting stories that were hinted at. In my view, if it wasn't Will Smith it would have been really awful. He's a good enough actor and generally likeable enough to keep me paying attention.

I agree on Will Smith.  Since "The Road to Happyness", he's proven he's more than just a box office name... he can act.  The general view of most good stories, especially those who are supposed to be thrillers or action movies, is to provide a protagonist/antagonist.  It was hard to pick out the true antagonist in this movie, was it the vampires, was it the virus, was it Neville's own downward spiral towards depression and hopelessness (my choice).  If it was the latter, then more could've been spend bringing out the battle between Neville and his own internal battle than what was spent with Neville and the cartoon CGI characters.  Had those CGI vampires been symbolic of his own internal demons, it works, but it came across as more of a interruption to the good story being told in my opinion.  Will Smith was highly prepared to bring out this internal battle, he had me right there with him on that count.

It's too bad the producers/director of the movie gave way to today's CGI crazed movie audience. I know making a movie similar to "Castaway", only set in New York and with the idea of being the last man on earth, is not a great idea for a action or thriller movie.  Nothing thrilling about that and many of the thrill seeking movie audience would've stayed away.  So the producers/director did something worse, they tried to straddle the line between a good drama/message movie with excellent acting by a big box office name (Castaway used Tom Hanks, this movie picked Will Smith) and CGI/Vampire Slashing/Action/Sci-Fi Thriller.

Bad move.

They had a much better story to tell than an action movie to show.  So what happened was that I stayed with the story all the way and forgave the interruption of the action/thriller CGI cartoon.  I wish I could've used my imagination more to help me bridge between the hopelessness of Neville's situation and his internal demons with these very real antagonist banging on his door.  Hollywood needs to realize that many of the movie going audience are smart enough to stay with movies like Castaway and use that to their advantage.

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #49 on: January 01, 2008, 12:17:49 pm »
So does Neville die in the end?  that's the whole point of the book.

The ending is what most Matheson fans care little about in this movie version.  That is all I can say without giving away the movie.

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #50 on: January 01, 2008, 04:04:23 pm »
Noe:  You don't think a fourteen year old can handle reading Matheson?  Why?  Would you let him read Stephen King?  Asimov?

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #51 on: January 01, 2008, 04:12:42 pm »
So does Neville die in the end?  that's the whole point of the book.
the whole point?

wiki is your friend: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_Legend_%28film%29

I read the book, and it sounds like it's better than the movie, as is almost always the case.  The book had some pretty silly parts too, though.

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #52 on: January 01, 2008, 09:31:41 pm »
Noe:  You don't think a fourteen year old can handle reading Matheson?

No.  But we enjoyed the movie.

Quote
Why?

How many 14 year olds would even ask to read Matheson?  That's the point, he has a very high reading level (collegiate level) and his interest go beyond what other 14 year olds want to read.  Heck, half of them don't even read.

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Would you let him read Stephen King?  Asimov?

He hasn't asked about them... yet.  But my answer would be similar to his desire to read "I Am Legend".  Slow down a little, all in good time.

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #53 on: January 01, 2008, 09:54:17 pm »
No.  But we enjoyed the movie.
cool.  I'll probably rent it someday.

Quote
How many 14 year olds would even ask to read Matheson?
Probably very few before the movie came out.  When I was reading it a few weeks ago, many 12 year olds in my class said they wanted to read it.  "It's that Will Smith movie, Mr." 
I doubt very many of my students (12 year olds) would have finished it if I'd loaned it out.  Cool that your kid would.

Quote
That's the point, he has a very high reading level (collegiate level) and his interest go beyond what other 14 year olds want to read.  Heck, half of them don't even read.
Which is exactly why my folks let me read whatever I wanted.  I apologize if I came off as judgemental.  I was genuinely curious.  I don't have children yet.

Quote
He hasn't asked about them... yet.  But my answer would be similar to his desire to read "I Am Legend".  Slow down a little, all in good time.
If you don't mind my asking, why don't you think it would be a good idea?  Nightmares?  Matheson is pretty tame.  Most of his stuff was written in the 50s. 
Why do you think Stephen King is inappropriate for a teenager?  I only ask because I respect your opinions.

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #54 on: January 01, 2008, 10:05:41 pm »
cool.  I'll probably rent it someday.
Probably very few before the movie came out.  When I was reading it a few weeks ago, many 12 year olds in my class said they wanted to read it.  "It's that Will Smith movie, Mr." 
I doubt very many of my students (12 year olds) would have finished it if I'd loaned it out.  Cool that your kid would.
Which is exactly why my folks let me read whatever I wanted.  I apologize if I came off as judgemental.  I was genuinely curious.  I don't have children yet.
If you don't mind my asking, why don't you think it would be a good idea?  Nightmares?  Matheson is pretty tame.  Most of his stuff was written in the 50s. 
Why do you think Stephen King is inappropriate for a teenager?  I only ask because I respect your opinions.



Out of curiosity, since you are a teacher...what *do* 14-year olds read these days?  When I was 14 I was in high school, and was required to read everything from Tolkien to Faulkner to D.H. Lawrence.  For my personal reading, I think I was about 14 when I read Farenheit 451, Catcher in the Rye, and Slaughterhouse Five.  I also read things by the likes Philip K. Dick and Arthur C. Clarke.  So what's the norm these days?
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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #55 on: January 01, 2008, 10:19:41 pm »
If you don't mind my asking, why don't you think it would be a good idea?  Nightmares?  Matheson is pretty tame.  Most of his stuff was written in the 50s.

It's a bit heady, but my son would probably disagree with me that it is above his comprehension level.  I believe the undertones of Matheson's book was the McCarthyism that was going on around him and his books, especially I AM Legend, were his way of expressing concern.  My son would read it for the narrative and storyline and not the message though.  He enjoys the fantasy and sci-fi genre of books, so hence his interest.
 
Quote
Why do you think Stephen King is inappropriate for a teenager?  I only ask because I respect your opinions.

King is a bit weird to me and just a tad on the twisted side.  I'd like my son to be a little more mature emotionally to handle SK's demented side.  But that is my own opinion on King, I just never liked his twisted views and story telling.  That's just me.

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #56 on: January 01, 2008, 10:27:30 pm »
Out of curiosity, since you are a teacher...what *do* 14-year olds read these days?
For pleasure?  Hard to say.  Most of my sixth graders come from families with very low socioeconomic status.  With about half my classes, we read on a third grade level, and spend much of our time talking about what sounds the different vowels make.
When I take my classes to the library, many of them grab sports books and biographies.  I doubt they get read at home very often.  Graphic novels seem to be pretty popular. 
The stuff we read in class would bore the hell out of most kids their age.  In my "honors" class (grade level readers), we get to read some better stuff.  We keep it to short stories and excerpts.  Some of them will read their first novel in seventh grade, and some will make it through middle school without ever finishing one.  It's pretty sad.
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When I was 14 I was in high school, and was required to read everything from Tolkien to Faulkner to D.H. Lawrence.  For my personal reading, I think I was about 14 when I read Farenheit 451, Catcher in the Rye, and Slaughterhouse Five.  I also read things by the likes Philip K. Dick and Arthur C. Clarke.  So what's the norm these days?
I started reading more than most of my peers pretty young.  I got my hands on one of my older sister's S. King books.  I thought it wasn't scary at all, but really cool.  My parents were so happy I was reading that they kept buying them for me.  In high school I read a little bit of everything.  You mentioned some good ones.  The ones that stick out in my mind are Catch-22, On the Road, and pretty much anything by Vonnegut.  There are plenty of others I'll kick myself later for not thinking of.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2008, 10:31:54 pm by loganck »

strosrays

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #57 on: January 02, 2008, 01:44:07 am »


Out of curiosity, since you are a teacher...what *do* 14-year olds read these days?  When I was 14 I was in high school, and was required to read everything from Tolkien to Faulkner to D.H. Lawrence.  For my personal reading, I think I was about 14 when I read Farenheit 451, Catcher in the Rye, and Slaughterhouse Five.  I also read things by the likes Philip K. Dick and Arthur C. Clarke.  So what's the norm these days?


This'll sound pretentious, but I read and have read a lot, all my life.  Including probably 60-70% of Allen Bloom's list, if I had to guess.  But still the best fucking book I've ever read is Go Dog Go, when I was five years old.  Because it was a good story w/pictures (I love dogs, generally), and because it made me want to keep on reading.

P.S.  I recall around age 14 being enamored of the "juvenile" novels of Paul Zindel.  I saved starting in on the literary heavy lifting for a few years later.

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #58 on: January 02, 2008, 07:23:23 am »
the whole point?



It's a pretty different book without it.
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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #59 on: January 02, 2008, 08:24:47 am »
It's a pretty different book without it.
The title doesn't make sense without it.  The story would still hold up with a different ending.
In my reading of the book, admittedly a fast, for-fun read, the major themes were loneliness, survival and loss.  I didn't pick up on the McCarthyism, so maybe I need to read it again.  I doubt I will, though.  Most of the  Twilight Zone type short stories in the book's second half were better than I am Legend, IMO.

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #60 on: January 02, 2008, 08:58:54 am »
But still the best fucking book I've ever read is go dog go when I was five years old.  Because it was a good story w/pictures (I love dogs, generally), and because it made me want to keep on reading.

As the parent of a 8 year old boy and a 6 year old girl, I have read "go dog go" enough times to form an opinion (not even including the times that I read the book when I was a child).  I'm not sure how this could possibly be anyone's favorite book.  My favorite book when I was that age was "and to think that I saw it on Mulberry Street" by Dr. Suess.   
« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 09:09:14 am by toddthebod »
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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #61 on: January 02, 2008, 09:06:53 am »
As the parent of a 8 year old boy and a 6 year old girl, I have read "go dog go" enough times to form an opinion (not even including the times that I read the book when I was a child).  I'm not sure how this could possibly be anyone's favorite book.  My favorite book when I was that age was "and to think that I saw it on Mulberry Street" by Dr. Suess.   

It was my favorite as well (3 to 5).  I have read it to my children at least a 100 times.  Do you like my hat?

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #62 on: January 02, 2008, 09:21:03 am »
My wife teaches 9th grade english.  The "regular" classes read the Odyssey, The Outsiders and Romeo and Juliet and the "Honors" classes read "To Kill a Mocking Bird".  Those are off the top of my head.

Her girls read more than her guys.  One series they are wild about right now is "Twilight" series.  About a girl who falls in love with a vampire.  More of a chick read but had some good action in it as well.  My wife couldn't put them down when she read them.  Thought they were alittle mature for our 11 year old (who reads everything she gets her hands on).  These books also have some humorous qualities. (Human girl has a birthday & vamps throw her a party since they haven't had a birthday to celebrate since 1937.  She is opening a birthday card and gets a papercut, all hell breaks loose.)

If kids bring something they are reading to my wife, she reads it so that she has something she can discuss with them and encourage them to read.

For younger readers (grades 5-8 - though I thoroughly enjoyed them) the Gregor the Overlander series is outstanding.

I have listened to "No Country" on CD and have decided that I don't want to see the level of violence the book talks about on screen.  Good book though.  Ending left me wishing for another chapter.



 
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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #63 on: January 02, 2008, 10:01:42 am »
As long as this thread has already morphed into something serious, let me add my two cents ...

Kids can follow and enjoy stories far above their reading level.  Read them good stuff and they will naturally want to read themselves, gradually moving toward the 'good stuff' themselves.  My third grade son loved Beowulf, and 12 years later is still reading 'good stuff'.
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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #64 on: January 02, 2008, 10:04:43 am »
The title doesn't make sense without it.  The story would still hold up with a different ending.
In my reading of the book, admittedly a fast, for-fun read, the major themes were loneliness, survival and loss.  I didn't pick up on the McCarthyism, so maybe I need to read it again.  I doubt I will, though.  Most of the  Twilight Zone type short stories in the book's second half were better than I am Legend, IMO.

I'm not sure where I read a review of the book that felt that the influences were there from the McCarthyism going on at the time.  Still, my reservation for my son is the message of loneliness spiraling downward towards insanity.

That is why the movie was a good starting point for talking to my son about such a theme.  I'm sure since he's a fan of Sci-Fi and fantasy books, he wanted to read something that is about vampires and the legend that kills them.  I had my reservations but suffice it to say he'll probably pick the book up now and want to read Matheson's treatment of the same general theme of the movie.

BTW - he's read a ton of books of the same genre it's hard for me to say he has one particular favorite.  He's read from Tolkien to CS Lewis to Crinchton to Paolini to everyone else who has dragons, vampires, star voyage, to everything else fantasy.  He's well above many when it comes to reading but he does pretty much limit himself to sci-fi and fantasy and my wife and I are trying to get him to expand his reading. 

His christmas gifts were several books from my wife that were not sci-fi and fantasy.  He's very interested in reading them.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 10:13:53 am by Noe in Austin »

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« Reply #65 on: January 02, 2008, 10:14:32 am »
I am with Noe on the caution on letting kids get too far ahead of their maturity in books.  My 11 year old daughter is a great reader and reads well above her grade level.  She got a book for Christmas that is written for her age and she finished it in 3 hours, while we were on a 6 1/2 hour trip.  My wife offered her, "To Kill a Mockingbird" since she had it with her and my daughter and finished the 3 books she brought with her on the trip. 

My wife offered her to book with a discussion that there may be some things in there that she will want to ask about or talk about. 

I think my daughter is a very mature 5th grader but I don't want her reading most of the current "young adult" lit because it is PG 13 and guess what, she isn't ready for it.  The classics is where we keep going back to.  They are classics for a reason. 
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« Reply #66 on: January 02, 2008, 10:19:21 am »
I am with Noe on the caution on letting kids get too far ahead of their maturity in books.  My 11 year old daughter is a great reader and reads well above her grade level.  She got a book for Christmas that is written for her age and she finished it in 3 hours, while we were on a 6 1/2 hour trip.  My wife offered her, "To Kill a Mockingbird" since she had it with her and my daughter and finished the 3 books she brought with her on the trip. 

My wife offered her to book with a discussion that there may be some things in there that she will want to ask about or talk about. 

I think my daughter is a very mature 5th grader but I don't want her reading most of the current "young adult" lit because it is PG 13 and guess what, she isn't ready for it.  The classics is where we keep going back to.  They are classics for a reason. 

We want camping the same weekend that the new Harry Potter book came out.  So my oldest asked if we could swing by the Barnes and Noble on our way out to the campground.  So I relented and he got the book.  In the one hour trip he was well into the book and by the time I had the tent up and ready for us to relax and get ready to sleep, he was well into half of the book.  He asked to be allowed to stay up and read a little more.

I said okay.

The next morning at breakfast I asked where he left off.  He said he finished the book.  I took one look at the book and one look at him and asked if he stayed up all night to do so.  He said no, only another several hours.  He really loves to read books.

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #67 on: January 02, 2008, 10:20:29 am »

I think my daughter is a very mature 5th grader but I don't want her reading most of the current "young adult" lit because it is PG 13 and guess what, she isn't ready for it.  The classics is where we keep going back to.  They are classics for a reason. 

Maybe multiple reasons ... among them that when they treat "mature themes" they do so in a manner that is consistent with the real world, allowing for meaningful interaction about moral choices and consequences.  Much of the "PG 13" stuff is sanitized of the reality  of those consequences, but leaves in (explicitly or implicitly) the questionable moral choices themselves.  Casual sex & violence are not made more palatable by moving them "off scene" (the original meaning of "obscene", by the way) and eliminating the real-world consequences.
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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #68 on: January 02, 2008, 10:29:18 am »
As long as this thread has already morphed into something serious, let me add my two cents ...

Kids can follow and enjoy stories far above their reading level.  Read them good stuff and they will naturally want to read themselves, gradually moving toward the 'good stuff' themselves.  My third grade son loved Beowulf, and 12 years later is still reading 'good stuff'.

Another thing to try is to have your kids read to you.  My youngest loves to read as well, but not as voraciously as the oldest.  However what he loves to do is read to my wife and I.  We're a bit geeky probably, but we enjoy when we go to local library to pick up the next month's reading material.  My oldest picks his books and the youngest picks his.  The oldest picks for his own reading pleasure, the youngest with reading out loud to us in mind.  It's gotten to the point now that the oldest often begs the youngest to read to all of us during dinner time or on long car trips.  This past few weeks my youngest has chosen to read us "Diary of a Wimpy Kid" (he bought the book with his own money at the book fair).

It is about a middle schooler's life and it is hilarious.  My youngest is in 5th grade but understands all the themes in the book.  Some of which are good segues to good discussions of wise choices, moral and ethical behavior and true friendships.  But mostly it is just out right fun to listen to my son read the excerpts from the book.

And his interest in books has increased because of it.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 10:37:08 am by Noe in Austin »

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #69 on: January 02, 2008, 10:44:25 am »
So you're saying that my 5 year old reading David Sedaris books is a bad idea?

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« Reply #70 on: January 02, 2008, 10:44:45 am »
For pleasure?  Hard to say.  Most of my sixth graders come from families with very low socioeconomic status.  With about half my classes, we read on a third grade level, and spend much of our time talking about what sounds the different vowels make.
When I take my classes to the library, many of them grab sports books and biographies.  I doubt they get read at home very often.  Graphic novels seem to be pretty popular. 
The stuff we read in class would bore the hell out of most kids their age.  In my "honors" class (grade level readers), we get to read some better stuff.  We keep it to short stories and excerpts.  Some of them will read their first novel in seventh grade, and some will make it through middle school without ever finishing one.  It's pretty sad.

you do realize that it's, you know, YOUR JOB to get your students, "very low socioeconomic status" or not, to appreciate reading and not just beat them over the head with vowel sounds?  if "some" make it through middle school without finishing a novel, it's your responsibility.  your sighing, 'kids today..." attitude helps in no ways.

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #71 on: January 02, 2008, 10:48:18 am »
you do realize that it's, you know, YOUR JOB to get your students, "very low socioeconomic status" or not, to appreciate reading and not just beat them over the head with vowel sounds?  if "some" make it through middle school without finishing a novel, it's your responsibility.  your sighing, 'kids today..." attitude helps in no ways.

Ehh... I object!  It is not "his responsibility", it is the PARENTS responsibility.  His responsibility is to set a curriculum and present it to them in a format which improves their comprehension.  The odds are, due to the astounding lack of attention put into these children's education by their parents, that he is forced to focus on the basics of reading, writing etc.... Don't get me wrong, I'm all for holding teachers responsible but not in the way you seem to feel justified in doing. 
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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #72 on: January 02, 2008, 11:00:29 am »
you do realize that it's, you know, YOUR JOB to get your students, "very low socioeconomic status" or not, to appreciate reading and not just beat them over the head with vowel sounds?  if "some" make it through middle school without finishing a novel, it's your responsibility.  your sighing, 'kids today..." attitude helps in no ways.
Wow.  You totally nailed my attitude about my job 100%.

I mentioned their family situation so HH didn't think I taught a resource class when I mentioned our third grade reading level.  The vowel sound practice is necessary when you spend the majority of your life speaking another language.  I have district-mandated scripted lessons for some of my classes that have been proven to help struggling readers.  I don't "just beat them over the head with vowel sounds" because it's fun.

You don't know me.  You don't know what I do after school when I have more freedom to teach what I want.  If I didn't love reading and sharing my love of reading with kids then I'd do something else.

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #73 on: January 02, 2008, 11:27:58 am »
you do realize that it's, you know, YOUR JOB to get your students, "very low socioeconomic status" or not, to appreciate reading and not just beat them over the head with vowel sounds?  if "some" make it through middle school without finishing a novel, it's your responsibility.  your sighing, 'kids today..." attitude helps in no ways.

This sounds a bit presumptuous and harsh.

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #74 on: January 02, 2008, 11:28:11 am »
Ehh... I object!  It is not "his responsibility", it is the PARENTS responsibility.  His responsibility is to set a curriculum and present it to them in a format which improves their comprehension.  The odds are, due to the astounding lack of attention put into these children's education by their parents, that he is forced to focus on the basics of reading, writing etc.... Don't get me wrong, I'm all for holding teachers responsible but not in the way you seem to feel justified in doing. 

There is also the responsibility of the administration of the school (local and district and state) to provide the intervention for low reading comprehension students.  I'm currently working on a program aimed at two grades below level readers.  It's an intensive intervention program and it's pretty well done.  I'm working on the technology aspects of the program and right now it's targeted for California because they've put out the call for adoption of programs like this (and basal programs for level readers).  Texas and Florida are the other two large states who put out adoption calls for large programs to help students in various needs.  Texas did a large adoption several years ago in Math.

So it's not uncommon for folks in these states to think that the school should do more for kids in the basal and supplemental realm.  They do put out calls for large program adoptions and then they mandate the school districts to choose from the adoption list of providers to implement the programs to help these kids.  If the districts do not participate, it's on them for not doing so.

But in the end, lack of participation by parents in the education of the kids is a big drawback.  However since we have a large segment of society today that has different profiles for family (single mom, single Dad, blended family, grandparents raising children, et. al.) the need for extraordinary programs such as intensive intervention programs (like the one I'm working on now) are necessary and the school has to take advantage of said programs to help these kids.  I know that this is extraordinary because it's a call for three hour intervention each day for literacy.  It's not intended to just placate the State mandates, but to actually bring the child up to standards and "on-ramp" them into basal as quickly as possible.

I'm interested in what will be the end result data to come out of this program several years down the road.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 11:32:17 am by Noe in Austin »

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #75 on: January 02, 2008, 11:46:12 am »
There is also the responsibility of the administration of the school (local and district and state) to provide the intervention for low reading comprehension students.  I'm currently working on a program aimed at two grades below level readers.  It's an intensive intervention program and it's pretty well done.  I'm working on the technology aspects of the program and right now it's targeted for California because they've put out the call for adoption of programs like this (and basal programs for level readers).  Texas and Florida are the other two large states who put out adoption calls for large programs to help students in various needs.  Texas did a large adoption several years ago in Math.

So it's not uncommon for folks in these states to think that the school should do more for kids in the basal and supplemental realm.  They do put out calls for large program adoptions and then they mandate the school districts to choose from the adoption list of providers to implement the programs to help these kids.  If the districts do not participate, it's on them for not doing so.

But in the end, lack of participation by parents in the education of the kids is a big drawback.  However since we have a large segment of society today that has different profiles for family (single mom, single Dad, blended family, grandparents raising children, et. al.) the need for extraordinary programs such as intensive intervention programs (like the one I'm working on now) are necessary and the school has to take advantage of said programs to help these kids.  I know that this is extraordinary because it's a call for three hour intervention each day for literacy.  It's not intended to just placate the State mandates, but to actually bring the child up to standards and "on-ramp" them into basal as quickly as possible.

I'm interested in what will be the end result data to come out of this program several years down the road.

Thanks for sharing that.  Unfortunately, the fact that the school system goes to such lengths to address the problem reinforces the perception it's the school systems fault.  No offense to those who see it this way, but my children are my responsibility.  It's my responsibility to be involved so I am aware if/when his skills are not up to par.  It's my responsibility to engage all the appropriate resources to assist my children as needed.  It's my responsibility to engage the school district when I think a teacher is incompetent or in need of reprimand.   It's my responsibility to use the education system as the minimal standard for what my child should know before entering adulthood and (hopefully) becomes a productive member of society. 

It's become acceptable to point at other's contribution to a problem without ever looking at one's self to see what we may have contributed to our own failure or dissappointments.  Personally, I find that, without exception, when I look at my choices and actions that led to a problem, I could most likely have avoided said problem regardless of whether another person bares the bulk of the resposibility. 

"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."

"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man. "

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #76 on: January 02, 2008, 11:54:48 am »
you do realize that it's, you know, YOUR JOB to get your students, "very low socioeconomic status" or not, to appreciate reading and not just beat them over the head with vowel sounds?  if "some" make it through middle school without finishing a novel, it's your responsibility.  your sighing, 'kids today..." attitude helps in no ways.

I sure hope this is sarc.

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« Reply #77 on: January 02, 2008, 11:56:27 am »
I have listened to "No Country" on CD and have decided that I don't want to see the level of violence the book talks about on screen.  Good book though.  Ending left me wishing for another chapter.

I saw it on Monday and it is still giving me the creeps thinking about it.   I don't know if I would recommend it, except as a psychological horror film. It certainly was well made.  And I thought the ending was what the movie was about, but ok I can see your point. 

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« Reply #78 on: January 02, 2008, 11:57:13 am »
And his interest in books has increased because of it.

That's kind of how I feel about my son reading comic books.  I feel that any reading that he does is good, almost regardless of the content.  He reads LOTS of non-comic books, but I don't see any reason to complain about the comic books, except the fact that I think that a lot of them are meant for people a lot older.

And speaking of adult content, when I was a kid (I don't remember how old), I read a book called "About the B'Nai Bagels," which is about a little league team (sponsored by the B'nai Brith -- a Jewish organization).  One of the struggles that the main character goes through is the fact that his mother is the manager and his older brother is a coach on the team.  My memories of the book were pretty vague, but I remembered liking it, so I gave it to my son.  It was a little strange when he came up to me and asked what Playboy was and why kids were paying money to get a look at naked women.  Ooops.
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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #79 on: January 02, 2008, 12:05:03 pm »
Thanks for sharing that.  Unfortunately, the fact that the school system goes to such lengths to address the problem reinforces the perception it's the school systems fault.  No offense to those who see it this way, but my children are my responsibility.  It's my responsibility to be involved so I am aware if/when his skills are not up to par.  It's my responsibility to engage all the appropriate resources to assist my children as needed.  It's my responsibility to engage the school district when I think a teacher is incompetent or in need of reprimand.   It's my responsibility to use the education system as the minimal standard for what my child should know before entering adulthood and (hopefully) becomes a productive member of society. 

It's become acceptable to point at other's contribution to a problem without ever looking at one's self to see what we may have contributed to our own failure or dissappointments.  Personally, I find that, without exception, when I look at my choices and actions that led to a problem, I could most likely have avoided said problem regardless of whether another person bares the bulk of the resposibility. 

Agreed.

Having said that though, we must understand that while many feel a huge responsibility like you, today's societal influences make for a need that must be filled by a school district that was not as evident in days past.  We have many kids today that come from unique family situations and as much as we would love to think that many of them can achieve in spite of the situation they're in, the sad truth is we lose many good kids when all that was required was just a little more intervention on the school's part. 

Parental replacement level intervention?  No.

A structure intervention that realizes that just passing these kids through ignoring that they cannot even read at grade level is not enough is actually needed.  Taking them out of the basal (norm) programs and putting them into a focused environment and making this a well structured intervention helps in more ways than just hoping that parental or adult supervision at home above the everyday struggles to survive in life can rise above it and help.  I think the attack on Logan was uncalled for.  He has a intervention (non-intensive) program he must teach and it requires him to do the best he can with what he has.  He must depend on parental intervention, which may or may not come.  Based on the socio-economic status and ESL he says exist in his class, it may not come because it is a struggle just to survive.  Take a great teacher like Logan probably is and give him a rigid, structured intensive intervention program and he can do wonders with these kids.  Three hours with these kids as opposed to one changes the dynamics and gives these future members of society a fighting chance.  Is it more costly to do this?  Perhaps and I won't insult anyone with the cheeky statement of "If you think education is costly, try ignorance!", but at some level you have to give more than just the norm to these kids.  You have to intervene, IMHO of course.

I will be interested in the end result data to come out of this particular program because I am confident that like Jaime Escalante's group of inner city kids learning math because of his own intensive intervention (and many others), many will excel.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 12:33:07 pm by Noe in Austin »

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #80 on: January 02, 2008, 12:42:31 pm »
Agreed.

Having said that though, we must understand that while many feel a huge responsibility like you, today's societal influences make for a need that must be filled by a school district that was not as evident in days past.  We have many kids today that come from unique family situations and as much as we would love to think that many of them can achieve in spite of the situation they're in, the sad truth is we lose many good kids when all that was required was just a little more intervention on the school's part. 

Parental replacement level intervention?  No.

A structure intervention that realizes that just passing these kids through ignoring that they cannot even read at grade level is not enough is actually needed.  Taking them out of the basal (norm) programs and putting them into a focused environment and making this a well structured intervention helps in more ways than just hoping that parental or adult supervision at home above the everyday struggles to survive in life can rise above it and help.  I think the attack on Logan was uncalled for.  He has a basal program he must teach and it requires him to do the best he can with what he has.  He must depend on parental intervention, which may or may not come.  Based on the socio-economic status he says exist in his class, it may not come because it is a struggle just to survive.  Take a great teacher like Logan probably is and give him a rigid, structured intensive intervention program and he can do wonders with these kids.  Three hours with these kids as opposed to one changes the dynamics and gives these future members of society a fighting chance.  Is it more costly to do this?  Perhaps and I won't insult anyone with the cheeky statement of "If you think education is costly, try ignorance!", but at some level you have to give more than just the norm to these kids.  You have to intervene, IMHO of course.

I will be interested in the end result data to come out of this particular program because I am confident that like Jaime Escalante's group of inner city kids learning math because of his own intensive intervention (and many others), many will excel.

I appreciate the challenges presented by the socio-economic standing.  I wish I had helpful suggestions but I don't.  That is a problem I am vastly unqualified to deal with, both in the education system and life in general.  I'm a conservative by affiliation but even I recognize the situation is a giant cluster fuck.  I think the unfortunate part is that instead of using the standardized testing to identify areas in need of attention, we are now using them for a purpose it is ill suited to evaluate, teacher performance.  Much like statistics can be used to prove any "fact" you wish to lie about, standardized  testing can be used to misrepresent the progress/failures of the public education system. 
« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 12:45:24 pm by S.P. Rodriguez »
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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #81 on: January 02, 2008, 12:51:36 pm »
I struggled through Dune at the age of 10 and realized I was in over my head a bit.  I think a lot of kids can realize that when they try jumping ahead in reading more advanced books. After a few more years I went back to Dune and enjoyed it so much I promptly read the complete series.

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« Reply #82 on: January 02, 2008, 01:00:17 pm »
I appreciate the challenges presented by the socio-economic standing.  I wish I had helpful suggestions but I don't.  That is a problem I am vastly unqualified to deal with, both in the education system and life in general.  I'm a conservative by affiliation but even I recognize the situation is a giant cluster fuck.  I think the unfortunate part is that instead of using the standardized testing to identify areas in need of attention, we are now using them for a purpose it is ill suited to evaluate, teacher performance.  Much like statistics can be used to prove any "fact" you wish to lie about, standardized  testing can be used to misrepresent the progress/failures of the public education system. 

Agreed, and teachers know this as well.  I cannot imagine how much fear a good teacher will have if performance evaluation hinders their ability to reach students.  My wife and I have a unique relationship with my oldest son's teachers because he's a voracious reader.  IOW - sometimes (a lot of times) it is something he'll do instead of his daily work.  In art class, in math, et. al.  Then he'll take the test and ace them all, much to the frustration of the teachers.  They always feel they're not reaching my son, but most of them then realize that when he reads the required reading for the class, he gets the concepts right away.  So he's usually well ahead of the class and is bored that he has to sit through instruction for the others by the teacher when he already knows what is the concept at hand.

So we deal with *other* issues that hinder his class performance.  He scores low in daily work (and it's been a source of frustration for him and me for quite a while) because of his actual accelerated learning capability and some teachers hate having him in their class.  We have to deal with things such as "leadership", "responsibility" and other things with my oldest son.  Now that he's on the verge of High School, it will be more evident that he needs to be a leader and very responsible for himself.  Instead of going counter to the teacher's class, he needs to adhere and lead in said class.

The other suggestion is to pull him from the basal class environment and put him in the star program (I think this is what it's called, forgive me for not being real clear on the name).  This program would allow him to be an independent learner, however it will lean heavily on his responsibility factor.  Meaning, he's going to be learning more in line with real world work environments.  He's going to be responsible for his own projects and to present to his peers and facilitators for evaluation, et. al. 

So while I have a very bright and intelligent 14 year old, he doesn't function well in the basal programs unless he decides to comply in a standard classroom environment (and that's been hard for several years now to get him to do) or allow himself to go to a different environment.  One or the other will have to happen and that is mostly on him and us, not the school to intervene.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 01:07:03 pm by Noe in Austin »

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #83 on: January 02, 2008, 01:15:36 pm »
I struggled through Dune at the age of 10 and realized I was in over my head a bit.  I think a lot of kids can realize that when they try jumping ahead in reading more advanced books. After a few more years I went back to Dune and enjoyed it so much I promptly read the complete series.

I have just started Dune.

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« Reply #84 on: January 02, 2008, 01:17:21 pm »
Agreed, and teachers know this as well.  I cannot imagine how much fear a good teacher will have if performance evaluation hinders their ability to reach students.  My wife and I have a unique relationship with my oldest son's teachers because he's a voracious reader.  IOW - sometimes (a lot of times) it is something he'll do instead of his daily work.  In art class, in math, et. al.  Then he'll take the test and ace them all, much to the frustration of the teachers.  They always feel they're not reaching my son, but most of them then realize that when he reads the required reading for the class, he gets the concepts right away.  So he's usually well ahead of the class and is bored that he has to sit through instruction for the others by the teacher when he already knows what is the concept at hand.

So we deal with *other* issues that hinder his class performance.  He scores low in daily work (and it's been a source of frustration for him and me for quite a while) because of his actual accelerated learning capability and some teachers hate having him in their class.  We have to deal with things such as "leadership", "responsibility" and other things with my oldest son.  Now that he's on the verge of High School, it will be more evident that he needs to be a leader and very responsible for himself.  Instead of going counter to the teacher's class, he needs to adhere and lead in said class.

The other suggestion is to pull him from the basal class environment and put him in the star program (I think this is what it's called, forgive me for not being real clear on the name).  This program would allow him to be an independent learner, however it will lean heavily on his responsibility factor.  Meaning, he's going to be learning more in line with real world work environments.  He's going to be responsible for his own projects and to present to his peers and facilitators for evaluation, et. al. 

So while I have a very bright and intelligent 14 year old, he doesn't function well in the basal programs unless he decides to comply in a standard classroom environment (and that's been hard for several years now to get him to do) or allow himself to go to a different environment.  One or the other will have to happen and that is mostly on him and us, not the school to intervene.

Thanks for sharing the interesting story about your oldest child.  I don't recall the name of this program but I can share some experiences with people in these programs.  It ranged, from truly gifted and well balanced going on to incredible opportunities or the truly gifted but completely unbalanced personality that became so reckless and self destructive that they ended up failing out of school.  Good luck, if it's any indication, it was those who's parents encouraged academic discipline and accomplishment with the importance of being well-rounded who normally did very well. 

I work in an industry of brilliant people who have the misfortune of shooting themselves in the foot, largely due to their complete lack of social skills.  Luckily for me, I am not brilliant.  Otherwise, my own "shooting mishaps" would have had greater impact than to lose a small piece of my pinky-toe (so to speak). 
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."

"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man. "

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #85 on: January 02, 2008, 01:39:04 pm »
I appreciate the challenges presented by the socio-economic standing.  I wish I had helpful suggestions but I don't.  That is a problem I am vastly unqualified to deal with, both in the education system and life in general.  I'm a conservative by affiliation but even I recognize the situation is a giant cluster fuck.  I think the unfortunate part is that instead of using the standardized testing to identify areas in need of attention, we are now using them for a purpose it is ill suited to evaluate, teacher performance.  Much like statistics can be used to prove any "fact" you wish to lie about, standardized  testing can be used to misrepresent the progress/failures of the public education system. 

kids are kids, no matter what background they come from or what reading level they're at.  certainly different home environments might make some kids more or less acclimated to certain aspects of school, and certainly some parents teach reading in the home and do a better job of ensuring that their kids have better study skills, but the idea that somehow honors kids from high socioeconomic backgrounds are more suited to reading interesting texts, or are able to read novels, is preposterous, insulting, and counterproductive.  reading levels and things like that are way overblown and are often used as an excuse.  there are countless kids who can write and read fluid, multi-layered personal letters, comic books, sports articles, etc. but when those same kids are asked to write a two-page paper for class or are asked to read some story they grumble and struggle.  why does that happen?  is it because of their backgrounds, or is it because of something the teacher is doing or not doing?

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« Reply #86 on: January 02, 2008, 01:41:28 pm »
Thanks for sharing the interesting story about your oldest child.  I don't recall the name of this program but I can share some experiences with people in these programs.  It ranged, from truly gifted and well balanced going on to incredible opportunities or the truly gifted but completely unbalanced personality that became so reckless and self destructive that they ended up failing out of school.  Good luck, if it's any indication, it was those who's parents encouraged academic discipline and accomplishment with the importance of being well-rounded who normally did very well. 

I work in an industry of brilliant people who have the misfortune of shooting themselves in the foot, largely due to their complete lack of social skills.  Luckily for me, I am not brilliant.  Otherwise, my own "shooting mishaps" would have had greater impact than to lose a small piece of my pinky-toe (so to speak). 

Interestingly enough, we get a range of suggestions from his teachers.  From those who would love to keep him in their class if we work on his "responsibility" to those who reached their end with him and would rather we move him to a star program where he can be on his own.

I'm not easily swayed by their opinions, although I welcome their input.  I would personally rather he stayed in the standard classroom environment (much to the dismay of some of his teachers I'm sure) and work on his other issues.  What has to happen is daily work has to match what he does on the final tests.  I'm not kidding when I say he scores 100 percent on all test, but has failing grades for just the nominal everyday work because he's just not interested in participating.

So I'd rather work on the issue of being a leader through the classroom environment, but admit it's going to be harder and harder to get buy-in from him as he gets older. 

Also some of his teachers really would rather not deal with him, sad to say.  I confronted one particular teacher about this because I felt her desire to have him out of her class was evident and made my son even more resolute to not participate.  Her desire was to teach, not facilitate, so my son was/is a hindrance in her class.  So she let him know that and lost him complete this past semester.  It's too bad, because I agree with her that she cannot have one student who reads in her class while she teaches concepts.  She also cannot have that same kid show her up in class that he understands the concepts when she calls him out in front of others.  She simply does not want him to show others this attitude and I agree.

However, another teacher realized early on that my son reading in her class was not about him showing her up or showing others how to tune out the teacher.  He understood the concepts and had the time during classroom instruction to read to himself instead of participate.  She was cool with that because his testing showed her that.  She allows him to read because that is an indication to her that he's there on the concept and will not disrupt her class in other ways while she helps others with classroom instruction.

It makes for interesting team teachers/parent meetings too.  You have the one who is cool with it and the other who simply feels it is wrong and would rather my son get pulled out of her class.  I think it's about my son realizing that the way school works is different than what will be your everyday life as an adult.  But that begins with realizing that he needs to embrace "leadership" and "responsibility" as well as just getting concepts down because he's well above others when it comes to reading and comprehension.

That mix of above average reading and age is dangerous because his own immaturity as a kid does not allow him to see how he can show a much more palatable way to handle himself in this environment and eventually how to handle many differing environments in the work place.  That's why I'm dealing with this as areas of maturity in "leadership" and "responsibility" and not "comprehension".

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #87 on: January 02, 2008, 01:55:11 pm »
kids are kids, no matter what background they come from or what reading level they're at.  certainly different home environments might make some kids more or less acclimated to certain aspects of school, and certainly some parents teach reading in the home and do a better job of ensuring that their kids have better study skills, but the idea that somehow honors kids from high socioeconomic backgrounds are more suited to reading interesting texts, or are able to read novels, is preposterous, insulting, and counterproductive.  reading levels and things like that are way overblown and are often used as an excuse.  there are countless kids who can write and read fluid, multi-layered personal letters, comic books, sports articles, etc. but when those same kids are asked to write a two-page paper for class or are asked to read some story they grumble and struggle.  why does that happen?  is it because of their backgrounds, or is it because of something the teacher is doing or not doing?

I'm interested, which is it?  Are you saying that a teacher bound by a curriculum is to blame?  Perhaps these bright kids would excel in an alternative school setting instead, where independent study, more choice is the method to get kids to read more.

Blaming the teacher seems way to convenient to me.  It may be the last thing that is the reason kids do not perform well in an environment.  It just may be the environment itself more than anything else.

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #88 on: January 02, 2008, 02:13:28 pm »
I'm interested, which is it?  Are you saying that a teacher bound by a curriculum is to blame?  Perhaps these bright kids would excel in an alternative school setting instead, where independent study, more choice is the method to get kids to read more.

Blaming the teacher seems way to convenient to me.  It may be the last thing that is the reason kids do not perform well in an environment.  It just may be the environment itself more than anything else.

it's not blaming the teacher necessarily, but to blame the curriculum and describe it in restrictive terms like "bound" is way more illogical.  the curriculum is merely a framework for a teacher to follow, and usually is a pretty good framework that makes a lot of sense.  no state defines a teacher's lesson plans or determines a teacher's teaching style.  all the state says is "here's what you're supposed to teach, so go teach it."  study after study has definitively shown that by far the greatest variable in teaching is that of the individual teacher.  everything else that gets big attention like the funding of the school, the socioeconomic makeup of the students, the quality of the principals, the discipline policy at the school, the amount of adherence to state standards, aesthetic appeal of the classroom, has time and again been shown to have a minor effect at best on the quality of education a student receives.

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #89 on: January 02, 2008, 02:21:46 pm »
Interestingly enough, we get a range of suggestions from his teachers.  ...

I would personally rather he stayed in the standard classroom environment ... What has to happen is daily work has to match what he does on the final tests ... 

I think it's about my son realizing that the way school works is different than what will be your everyday life as an adult.  But that begins with realizing that he needs to embrace "leadership" and "responsibility" ...

That's why I'm dealing with this as areas of maturity in "leadership" and "responsibility" and not "comprehension".
Great insights and attitude ... School is different, but one thing is sure ... once he gets to "the real world" he will need to deal with the reality of others who are slower on the uptake and/or completely clueless.  If he develops bad habits with his "daily work" now and begins to llok down on others, he will be completely lost once he hits the workplace.  His "comprehension" is part of his "original equipment specs" and nothing to brag about; his responsibility and leadership are character qualities that can be developed (and with various obvious caveats, can be a source of cautious pride).
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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #90 on: January 02, 2008, 02:44:44 pm »
It makes for interesting team teachers/parent meetings too.  You have the one who is cool with it and the other who simply feels it is wrong and would rather my son get pulled out of her class.  I think it's about my son realizing that the way school works is different than what will be your everyday life as an adult.  But that begins with realizing that he needs to embrace "leadership" and "responsibility" as well as just getting concepts down because he's well above others when it comes to reading and comprehension.

Your son reminds me somewhat of myself at that age.  It sounds like you are handling the situation better than my parents did.  However, I am starting to realize that my parents were just ill-equipped to deal with a kid who could out-reason and out-argue both of them from a fairly young age and was uncommonly stubborn.  My parents were also unwilling to believe, or at least admit, that sometimes teachers are wrong.  Some of them are just on a power trip, getting off on ruling their little fiefdoms with an iron fist and are not so much interested in actually teaching, at least not the kids who are a little difficult.  I wish you the best of luck.

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #91 on: January 02, 2008, 03:06:50 pm »
I have just started Dune.
It's a very interesting and layered book with so many different types of stories and lessons being told throughout.  I think it takes a few readings to catch all the themes and stories of Dune.

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #92 on: January 02, 2008, 03:11:36 pm »
It's a very interesting and layered book with so many different types of stories and lessons being told throughout.  I think it takes a few readings to catch all the themes and stories of Dune.

I was bored with Dune.  I like pulpy science fiction -- Robert Heinlein for me.  I was thumbing through my copy of Starship Troopers over the weekend (the same beat up copy I got when I was 13).  I've probably read ST and Moon is a Harsh Mistress about 100 times each. 
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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #93 on: January 02, 2008, 03:33:07 pm »
I was bored with Dune.  I like pulpy science fiction -- Robert Heinlein for me.  I was thumbing through my copy of Starship Troopers over the weekend (the same beat up copy I got when I was 13).  I've probably read ST and Moon is a Harsh Mistress about 100 times each. 
I love Heinlein too and ST is one of my favorites along with A Stranger In A Strange Land.  Dune is definitely not the typical sci-fi book with its heavy religious and political dealings but the universe Dune is set in is and incredibly remarkable one.  The Dune universe is very deep and fleshed out beyond comprehension at times.

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #94 on: January 02, 2008, 04:10:10 pm »
the idea that somehow honors kids from high socioeconomic backgrounds are more suited to reading interesting texts, or are able to read novels, is preposterous, insulting, and counterproductive.

Speaking of preposterous, insulting and counterproductive, where was this idea mentioned other than as a strawman in your post? I don't think anyone is contending this. Having the right teacher helps a great deal, but if you've got two sets of kids, and one set has been given all the advantages and encouragement in the world with respect to reading, and the others have had all kinds of obstacles at home and in school thrown in their way, there's going to be an achievement gap there that's hard for a single teacher to make up. That doesn't mean you give up, but it also doesn't mean you blast somebody for his attitude and approach to his profession on an Internet discussion board.

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #95 on: January 02, 2008, 05:59:39 pm »
Speaking of preposterous, insulting and counterproductive, where was this idea mentioned other than as a strawman in your post? I don't think anyone is contending this. Having the right teacher helps a great deal, but if you've got two sets of kids, and one set has been given all the advantages and encouragement in the world with respect to reading, and the others have had all kinds of obstacles at home and in school thrown in their way, there's going to be an achievement gap there that's hard for a single teacher to make up. That doesn't mean you give up, but it also doesn't mean you blast somebody for his attitude and approach to his profession on an Internet discussion board.

arky, the guy was asked what middle school kids read, and he brought up their socioeconomic status and said that the lower status kids spend most of their time on vowel sounds, but the honors kids read "better stuff."  he then said, in a way that suggested his disappointment, that when he brings these lower kids to the library all they want to do is read sports books, graphic novels, and biographies.  he then described as "pretty sad" that some kids go through middle school without finishing a novel.

my point is that everything he lamented is the job of an english teacher to correct, and so if a kid goes through middle school hating english class, hating reading, and not finishing a novel then that is an indictment on the teacher.  i guarantee you that if a teacher is intuitive enough, and is sufficiently trained to differentiate his or her instruction, then there will be no gap in what two given students can achieve.


« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 06:02:58 pm by Joey Trum »

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #96 on: January 02, 2008, 06:16:23 pm »
arky, the guy was asked what middle school kids read, and he brought up their socioeconomic status and said that the lower status kids spend most of their time on vowel sounds,
MUCH of our time.  Not more than half, but a lot.  Do you not think it's important that they learn the vowel sounds?  My point that a lot of my class time in some of my classes is spent on scripted programs.  It's not my favorite part of the day, but I do what the experts tell me will help.  Maybe they should have consulted you.

Quote
but the honors kids read "better stuff."
Right.  My "honors" students, who read on grade level, get more options.  That's a problem?

Quote
he then said, in a way that suggested his disappointment, that when he brings these lower kids to the library all they want to do is read sports books, graphic novels, and biographies. 
I have no problem with what they check out.  My disappointment lies in the fact that they don't read at home.  We require one hour of reading a night, and their parents are supposed to initial a paper saying they read.  I know for a fact many of my students' parents just sign without any reading taking place.

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he then described as "pretty sad" that some kids go through middle school without finishing a novel.
It isn't?  Novels aren't on the TAKS test.  I don't like the system, but I do work in it.

Quote
my point is that everything he lamented is the job of an english teacher to correct, and so if a kid goes through middle school hating english class, hating reading, and not finishing a novel then that is an indictment on the teacher. 
When did I ever say my students hated English class or reading?  It's sad they don't do it more on their own. I realize you think it's my fault they don't.  Most of these kids have challenges I couldn't have fathomed at their age.

Quote
i guarantee you that if a teacher is intuitive enough, and is sufficiently trained to differentiate his or her instruction, then there will be no gap in what two given students can achieve.
You must be an awesome teacher.  It would be nice to work in a district that gives as much freedom as you enjoy.

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #97 on: January 02, 2008, 06:56:48 pm »
My point that a lot of my class time in some of my classes is spent on scripted programs.

Intervention programs are very scripted.  The one I'm working on right now (technology support for it) is highly scripted because it's intensive intervention.  And it's not about ESL either, this is reading grade levels whatever socio-economic or background a kid may have.

If they are diagnosed as having two grade lower reading level, then they qualify for intensive intervention and the teacher follows a very rigid program until the student gets the very fundamental parts of reading.  It's not up to the teacher at that point, it's up to the program to help the student through a very focused time period (three hours a day) of intervention.  Afterwards, when the student tests out, they are on-ramped into the basal program and have as much skills to function in the regular Lit and Lang classroom as anyone else.  That they do or not is now all up to the student and not the program.

If anything, the intervention program is exactly about putting it on the school to help the student.  I don't think it's fair to say that the teacher isn't helping in an intervention program... they are, because it's very focused on the need rather than ignoring them.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 06:59:38 pm by Noe in Austin »

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #98 on: January 02, 2008, 10:15:09 pm »
We require one hour of reading a night...
One hour every night?  That sucks!  When do they help around the house, eat, bathe, do other homework, and play outside?  But then again, I'm not a reader, never have been.  How ironic that I couldn't spend an hour reading a book, but could spend hours reading this stuff.

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #99 on: January 02, 2008, 11:50:18 pm »
One hour every night?  That sucks!  When do they help around the house, eat, bathe, do other homework, and play outside?  But then again, I'm not a reader, never have been.  How ironic that I couldn't spend an hour reading a book, but could spend hours reading this stuff.
My mistake.  It's a half hour, which is still way too much for some of my students with the responsibilities they have at home.  I'm pretty understanding about it, and in reality it doesn't hurt their overall average much to not do it.

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #100 on: January 03, 2008, 07:55:32 am »

my point is that everything he lamented is the job of an english teacher to correct, and so if a kid goes through middle school hating english class, hating reading, and not finishing a novel then that is an indictment on the teacher.  i guarantee you that if a teacher is intuitive enough, and is sufficiently trained to differentiate his or her instruction, then there will be no gap in what two given students can achieve.


My wife has 102 students who range from unmotivated 17 year olds (What does it matter if I drop out with 6 credits as opposed to 5) to very motivated honors students.  Every class gets the best she can give for the time she has them but having a curriculum map that says what she is to cover in a academic year limits her ability to differentiate.  She works in an excellent school system that is well funded and has good resources.  But just because you find a neat way to teach "Great Expectations" doesn't mean all students will meet expectations. 

I couldn't find the link but a key factor in children reading is not a teacher but parents who read.  Doesn't matter what it is.  Could be the news paper or romance novels but kids seeing their parents reading encourages them to read. 
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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #101 on: January 03, 2008, 08:39:51 am »
My mistake.  It's a half hour, which is still way too much for some of my students with the responsibilities they have at home.  I'm pretty understanding about it, and in reality it doesn't hurt their overall average much to not do it.
I have my 7 year old reading 20-30 minutes a night during the week and that seems pretty good for him for now as there's no push back.  I was just curious when you initially had  1 hour down there.

S.P. Rodriguez

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #102 on: January 03, 2008, 08:44:33 am »
I couldn't find the link but a key factor in children reading is not a teacher but parents who read.  Doesn't matter what it is.  Could be the news paper or romance novels but kids seeing their parents reading encourages them to read. 

You obviously missed his point.  It's not the parent(s) responsibility.  It's the teacher's responsibility (assuming they are intuitive of course).  He said so....
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #103 on: January 03, 2008, 09:03:13 am »
You obviously missed his point.  It's not the parent(s) responsibility.  It's the teacher's responsibility (assuming they are intuitive of course).  He said so....
So, you're telling me it wasn't sarcasm?  Yikes.

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #104 on: January 03, 2008, 09:12:27 am »
So, you're telling me it wasn't sarcasm?  Yikes.
I'm beginning to think we should stick to baseball.
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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #105 on: January 03, 2008, 09:24:36 am »
I'm beginning to think we should stick to baseball.


That'll cut my post total by roughly 2/3.

Not saying that is a bad thing. . .

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #106 on: January 03, 2008, 11:04:22 am »
You obviously missed his point.  It's not the parent(s) responsibility.  It's the teacher's responsibility (assuming they are intuitive of course).  He said so....

parents have parental responsibilities, and under that wide umbrella does certainly include preparing their kids for school and/or vocation.  however, it's the teacher's job to teach the kids he or she has regardless of background.  if you are a middle school english teacher you have the responsibility to teach your students all the english-related things discussed in this thread.  for a long time now, kids have grown up with a strong disdain for formal reading and writing, and that disdain is at the feet of middle school and high school english teachers who have sucked the fun out of reading and writing.  think back on your english teachers and all the five paragraph, four sentences each paragraph, each sentence with a subject and a predicate, outline first, then rough draft, then final draft intro-body-body-body-conclusion essays you were forced to write.

as i said before, the greatest variable in a given student's learning of a given subject is the teacher-- not the parents, not the amount of computers in the classroom, not whether the school prays in the morning.  class size is the only other variable that comes close.  that's not to say that everything involving a student is 100% on the teacher, or that teachers should be burned at the stake for any student who doesn't achieve, but two different teachers can make a huge difference in the same child.




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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #107 on: January 03, 2008, 11:48:35 am »
arky, the guy was asked what middle school kids read, and he brought up their socioeconomic status and said that the lower status kids spend most of their time on vowel sounds, but the honors kids read "better stuff."  he then said, in a way that suggested his disappointment, that when he brings these lower kids to the library all they want to do is read sports books, graphic novels, and biographies.  he then described as "pretty sad" that some kids go through middle school without finishing a novel.

my point is that everything he lamented is the job of an english teacher to correct, and so if a kid goes through middle school hating english class, hating reading, and not finishing a novel then that is an indictment on the teacher.  i guarantee you that if a teacher is intuitive enough, and is sufficiently trained to differentiate his or her instruction, then there will be no gap in what two given students can achieve.

I'm sorry to overreact to your post, Joey, but I didn't read what loganck wrote the same way you did. It stands to reason that if you've got kids who, when the arrive in your class, have a reading level that lags far behind their grade level, then you've got to find things for them to read that are aimed at much younger audiences, which could be less interesting as well as frustrating and humiliating, or you've got to take the steps to teach them the reading skills that for whatever reason they didn't learn before. Blaming loganck for not miraculously closing an achievement gap that existed long before the students came into his classroom is unreasonable, IMO.

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« Reply #108 on: January 03, 2008, 11:53:02 am »
parents have parental responsibilities, and under that wide umbrella does certainly include preparing their kids for school and/or vocation.  however, it's the teacher's job to teach the kids he or she has regardless of background.  if you are a middle school english teacher you have the responsibility to teach your students all the english-related things discussed in this thread.  for a long time now, kids have grown up with a strong disdain for formal reading and writing, and that disdain is at the feet of middle school and high school english teachers who have sucked the fun out of reading and writing.  think back on your english teachers and all the five paragraph, four sentences each paragraph, each sentence with a subject and a predicate, outline first, then rough draft, then final draft intro-body-body-body-conclusion essays you were forced to write.

as i said before, the greatest variable in a given student's learning of a given subject is the teacher-- not the parents, not the amount of computers in the classroom, not whether the school prays in the morning.  class size is the only other variable that comes close.  that's not to say that everything involving a student is 100% on the teacher, or that teachers should be burned at the stake for any student who doesn't achieve, but two different teachers can make a huge difference in the same child.

Two different teachers can of course make a huge difference with the same child, but if Doogie Howser and Bart Simpson both show up in your class, there's going to be a great deal of difference in what you can get them to do. I'm not saying you give up on one to help the other, but even if you modify your approach to do everything you can to help both, that's not going to close the gap between them.

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #109 on: January 03, 2008, 12:32:07 pm »
parents have parental responsibilities, and under that wide umbrella does certainly include preparing their kids for school and/or vocation.  however, it's the teacher's job to teach the kids he or she has regardless of background. 
Agree so far...
Quote
if you are a middle school english teacher you have the responsibility to teach your students all the english-related things discussed in this thread.  for a long time now, kids have grown up with a strong disdain for formal reading and writing, and that disdain is at the feet of middle school and high school english teachers who have sucked the fun out of reading and writing.  think back on your english teachers and all the five paragraph, four sentences each paragraph, each sentence with a subject and a predicate, outline first, then rough draft, then final draft intro-body-body-body-conclusion essays you were forced to write.

And I couldn't disagree more with this part.  The teacher's responsibility is to teach the student as much as the student can handle.  That amount is more greatly impacted by parents than any teacher.   And this disdain you refer to is nothing more than attitude.  The attitude of a child is more representative of their peers and their family.  I was not raised with the expectation that life would me made fun, or otherwise entertaining, for me.   I was raised with the understanding that I was expected to learn and develop learning habits.  That meant that no matter how the material was presented, it was MY responsibility to learn it and seek the help I needed to do so.  My parents stopped helping me with my homework in 5th grade, if they did much before that.  Not that they weren't concerned, because they always checked to make sure I finished it.  They simply stood by their view that it was my responsibility and to do it for me or make it easier for me was putting me at a disadvantage long term.  That said, if I told them a teacher refused to help me, they were right in the middle of the ensuing fight. 

Quote
as i said before, the greatest variable in a given student's learning of a given subject is the teacher-- not the parents, not the amount of computers in the classroom, not whether the school prays in the morning.  class size is the only other variable that comes close.  that's not to say that everything involving a student is 100% on the teacher, or that teachers should be burned at the stake for any student who doesn't achieve, but two different teachers can make a huge difference in the same child.

I don't need statistics to prove my point and your previous use of them did nothing to convince me.  You have used statistics as though they prove cause and effect.  They do not.  Statistics in this type of situation, if measured properly, only narrow down the search for root cause.  They never, in and of themselves, prove root cause.  I am not disputing the fact that there are bad teachers but I also believe there are bad parents and bad students.  To put blame on any group more than the other is unfair.  Each one of those groups has a responsibility and if any of the three (teacher, student, parent) fail, or are unable, to accept their responsibility, the whole system fails.   
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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #110 on: January 03, 2008, 12:58:02 pm »
I'm sorry to overreact to your post, Joey, but I didn't read what loganck wrote the same way you did. It stands to reason that if you've got kids who, when the arrive in your class, have a reading level that lags far behind their grade level, then you've got to find things for them to read that are aimed at much younger audiences, which could be less interesting as well as frustrating and humiliating, or you've got to take the steps to teach them the reading skills that for whatever reason they didn't learn before. Blaming loganck for not miraculously closing an achievement gap that existed long before the students came into his classroom is unreasonable, IMO.

Well said.
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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #111 on: January 03, 2008, 12:59:54 pm »
I'm sorry to overreact to your post, Joey, but I didn't read what loganck wrote the same way you did. It stands to reason that if you've got kids who, when the arrive in your class, have a reading level that lags far behind their grade level, then you've got to find things for them to read that are aimed at much younger audiences, which could be less interesting as well as frustrating and humiliating, or you've got to take the steps to teach them the reading skills that for whatever reason they didn't learn before. Blaming loganck for not miraculously closing an achievement gap that existed long before the students came into his classroom is unreasonable, IMO.

lower reading level does not mean lower intelligence level, and does not mean lower capacity to learn at grade level.  not a surprise by now by reading my posts, but i am a teacher.  i teach middle school kids at a day-treatment hospital for kids with severe emotional problems.  many of these kids come from the most horrible home situations imaginable, and some show up in my class barely being able to read at all much less reading at grade level.  the teacher before me taught the class like it was an elementary school, with a focus on basic skills, lots of pictures, movies, and little kid books.  and i admit that the first time i was that i was told by the state that i had to teach all my students a normal grade-level curriculum, even in courses like reading and math where previous deficiencies would seemingly make this impossible, i was skeptical.  and when you consider the major behavior problems at my school, it would seem like wishful thinking to teach them the same things as a kid at a regular public school.  but i can tell you now that it can be done.  i have taught kids who could barely count how to do algebra, read novels with kids who could barely read, etc.  i once taught at austin high school in austin, and i can tell you straight up that my projects kids here can achieve at the same level as those tarrytown kids in austin.  do some kids display more of an aptitude toward one subject than another subject?  of course, and i'd be lying if i said every kid i've ever taught aced my classes and went on to college.  and of course, my job would be much easier if the kids had more stable upbringings and learned more basic skills in previous grades.  but i can't control any of that.  all i can control what they do in my class, and if they leave my class with the same deficiencies with which they entered it then that's on me.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 01:03:16 pm by Joey Trum »

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #112 on: January 03, 2008, 01:04:24 pm »
What is your teacher to student ratio?
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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #113 on: January 03, 2008, 01:48:21 pm »
lower reading level does not mean lower intelligence level, and does not mean lower capacity to learn at grade level.  not a surprise by now by reading my posts, but i am a teacher.  i teach middle school kids at a day-treatment hospital for kids with severe emotional problems.  many of these kids come from the most horrible home situations imaginable, and some show up in my class barely being able to read at all much less reading at grade level.  the teacher before me taught the class like it was an elementary school, with a focus on basic skills, lots of pictures, movies, and little kid books.  and i admit that the first time i was that i was told by the state that i had to teach all my students a normal grade-level curriculum, even in courses like reading and math where previous deficiencies would seemingly make this impossible, i was skeptical.  and when you consider the major behavior problems at my school, it would seem like wishful thinking to teach them the same things as a kid at a regular public school.  but i can tell you now that it can be done.  i have taught kids who could barely count how to do algebra, read novels with kids who could barely read, etc.  i once taught at austin high school in austin, and i can tell you straight up that my projects kids here can achieve at the same level as those tarrytown kids in austin.  do some kids display more of an aptitude toward one subject than another subject?  of course, and i'd be lying if i said every kid i've ever taught aced my classes and went on to college.  and of course, my job would be much easier if the kids had more stable upbringings and learned more basic skills in previous grades.  but i can't control any of that.  all i can control what they do in my class, and if they leave my class with the same deficiencies with which they entered it then that's on me.

You're right. Lower reading level doesn't mean lower intelligence level. It means exactly what it says, lower reading level. But if you've got an eighth grader who's got a third-grade reading level, whether because of lack of intelligence, lack of parental support and supervision or lack of sound teaching earlier in school, the fact remains that giving him a book at eighth-grade reading level without equipping him with the tools to get through it could be be a frustrating and discouraging experience. And I don't think you can get over that hump in every case if there's not enough time and attention in a school day and a school year to devote to it.

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #114 on: January 03, 2008, 01:59:52 pm »
You're right. Lower reading level doesn't mean lower intelligence level. It means exactly what it says, lower reading level. But if you've got an eighth grader who's got a third-grade reading level, whether because of lack of intelligence, lack of parental support and supervision or lack of sound teaching earlier in school, the fact remains that giving him a book at eighth-grade reading level without equipping him with the tools to get through it could be be a frustrating and discouraging experience. And I don't think you can get over that hump in every case if there's not enough time and attention in a school day and a school year to devote to it.

Which is why I ask the ratio question.  I have worked at treatment centers where the school portion helped students recover over a years worth of progress because of individualized attention due to low ratios.  Many IMO weren't great teachers if you would have given them a classroom of 20 average kids but they were great with 4 - 8 kids that they cared about. 

Bottom line, differences can be made with individualized attention/teaching but I am not sure that is realistic for most public school teachers.  Not all teachers can be great just like not all ball players can be Hank Aaron.
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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #115 on: January 03, 2008, 10:04:38 pm »
Which is why I ask the ratio question.  I have worked at treatment centers where the school portion helped students recover over a years worth of progress because of individualized attention due to low ratios.  Many IMO weren't great teachers if you would have given them a classroom of 20 average kids but they were great with 4 - 8 kids that they cared about. 

Bottom line, differences can be made with individualized attention/teaching but I am not sure that is realistic for most public school teachers.  Not all teachers can be great just like not all ball players can be Hank Aaron.

i have seven kids in my class, but of course these are 7 kids with severe behavioral/emotional problems and wildly divergent learning backgrounds so they require a lot more attention than the typical kid.  and this is why the school district and the county pays over $100,000 a year for each kid to attend my school (it costs something like $2000/kid for the public schools they were kicked out of), which is more than a year at harvard.  so yeah, these kids better do some major improving at that price-- but more often than not it doesn't happen academically as much as you'd think, as they end up being babied by teachers who think a 7th grader who reads on a third grade level should be taught third grade academics across the board.

i've taught in both public and non-public environments, and they each present their own challenges.  class size is definitely an important variable, and these public schools that try to stuff 30 kids in a room with one teacher is just an unfortunate obstacle for anybody, but it can be overcome.  i don't know, i mean, our education system sure doesn't make it easy for teachers, and unfortunately politicians these days try to use teacher "accountability" as a bait and switch in their efforts to conceal their inability to properly fund schools.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 10:09:40 pm by Joey Trum »

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #116 on: January 04, 2008, 10:31:57 am »
i have seven kids in my class, but of course these are 7 kids with severe behavioral/emotional problems and wildly divergent learning backgrounds so they require a lot more attention than the typical kid.  and this is why the school district and the county pays over $100,000 a year for each kid to attend my school (it costs something like $2000/kid for the public schools they were kicked out of), which is more than a year at harvard.  so yeah, these kids better do some major improving at that price-- but more often than not it doesn't happen academically as much as you'd think, as they end up being babied by teachers who think a 7th grader who reads on a third grade level should be taught third grade academics across the board.

i've taught in both public and non-public environments, and they each present their own challenges.  class size is definitely an important variable, and these public schools that try to stuff 30 kids in a room with one teacher is just an unfortunate obstacle for anybody, but it can be overcome.  i don't know, i mean, our education system sure doesn't make it easy for teachers, and unfortunately politicians these days try to use teacher "accountability" as a bait and switch in their efforts to conceal their inability to properly fund schools.

"students rise to the level of expectation" - Jaime Escalante (paraphrased)

I've worked with inner city kids in settings away from school on other issues.  Homelife, life skills, et. al.  My sister has been doing this in Houston for well over 30 years and I've helped her off and on.  We both adopted the motto of "rising to the level of expectation".  We expect them to understand and learn how to  behave and deal with life situations.  Most of them do and I have the unique satisfaction of meeting up with some of the kids I've worked with in my life as adults who are now parents of their own kids and have full time jobs and functioning very well in society.

I also have the unique situation of knowing several of my kids are in prison and will never get out because they just couldn't rise above what they believed was their lot in life.  All you can do is help but you can't save them.  I've seen more people burn out over trying to save kids.  They do more harm than good when they try to jump in where a family or significant parent or influence should be.  They lose focus, they lose the ability to help and some of the time, they lash out at those others in the fight with them to help the kids.  It's a fine line and only one that a person who is in there working with kids would understand, but clearly when working in this environment, keeping a keen sense of "I'm not their savior" will work for your own well being as well as theirs.

No one should be chided because they care enough to help and I believe you owe Logan at the very least more credit for doing as much as he can to be a help even though he may not meet your own level of output and effort.

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #117 on: January 04, 2008, 12:00:53 pm »
"students rise to the level of expectation" - Jaime Escalante (paraphrased)

I've worked with inner city kids in settings away from school on other issues.  Homelife, life skills, et. al.  My sister has been doing this in Houston for well over 30 years and I've helped her off and on.  We both adopted the motto of "rising to the level of expectation".  We expect them to understand and learn how to  behave and deal with life situations.  Most of them do and I have the unique satisfaction of meeting up with some of the kids I've worked with in my life as adults who are now parents of their own kids and have full time jobs and functioning very well in society.

I also have the unique situation of knowing several of my kids are in prison and will never get out because they just couldn't rise above what they believed was their lot in life.  All you can do is help but you can't save them.  I've seen more people burn out over trying to save kids.  They do more harm than good when they try to jump in where a family or significant parent or influence should be.  They lose focus, they lose the ability to help and some of the time, they lash out at those others in the fight with them to help the kids.  It's a fine line and only one that a person who is in there working with kids would understand, but clearly when working in this environment, keeping a keen sense of "I'm not their savior" will work for your own well being as well as theirs.

No one should be chided because they care enough to help and I believe you owe Logan at the very least more credit for doing as much as he can to be a help even though he may not meet your own level of output and effort.

noe, great points as usual. 

of course i give him credit, and trust me, my level of effort is not often what it could be.  ironically enough, i work in this particular field of teaching because it's easier to me than public school, and easier than most other jobs i've had such as managing hollywood actors.  what i was perhaps overzealously railing against was a familiar attitude that i perceived in his post-- the dual "i'm a dedicated teacher!"/"(sigh) kids today...".  most kids in our country, no matter what their background, grow up to develop a nagging disdain for learning and knowledge, and i very strongly believe that it is a result of this attitude.

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #118 on: January 04, 2008, 01:17:25 pm »
noe, great points as usual. 

of course i give him credit, and trust me, my level of effort is not often what it could be.  ironically enough, i work in this particular field of teaching because it's easier to me than public school, and easier than most other jobs i've had such as managing hollywood actors.  what i was perhaps overzealously railing against was a familiar attitude that i perceived in his post-- the dual "i'm a dedicated teacher!"/"(sigh) kids today...".  most kids in our country, no matter what their background, grow up to develop a nagging disdain for learning and knowledge, and i very strongly believe that it is a result of this attitude.

Understood and right there with you Joey.  I for one feel a strong sense of pride knowing guys like you are giving your all with kids like this.  It can be demanding, so my own recommendation is that every once and awhile, take a step back, look at the forest and then march right back into the woods that you face every day.

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #119 on: January 04, 2008, 03:04:43 pm »
Understood and right there with you Joey.  I for one feel a strong sense of pride knowing guys like you are giving your all with kids like this.  It can be demanding, so my own recommendation is that every once and awhile, take a step back, look at the forest and then march right back into the woods that you face every day.

Tip of the cap your way, my maign!

I always thought a teacher-on-teacher fight would be more....interesting...if you know what I mean....

I do thank the teachers. After seeing what they have dealt with in my boys, and knowing some great friends who are great teachers, it really does seem like the teachers have to thank themselves on occasion. I have stayed out of the discussion, barely, because I could only throw in second party or anecdotal stories...I had little to add to the overall thoughts on teaching. I do know that a great friend of mine, an award winning teacher (from students, PTA, teachers, and administration) has called me just to let out the frustration on several occasions.

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Re: Your Holiday Movie Minute (non-bb, of course)
« Reply #120 on: January 04, 2008, 07:42:55 pm »
Understood and right there with you Joey.  I for one feel a strong sense of pride knowing guys like you are giving your all with kids like this.  It can be demanding, so my own recommendation is that every once and awhile, take a step back, look at the forest and then march right back into the woods that you face every day.

Tip of the cap your way, my maign!


And, JT, however bad it looks at times, step back and remember to be thankful.  At least you weren't born a Cubs fan.