Author Topic: I don't see...  (Read 20389 times)

JGrave

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I don't see...
« on: June 27, 2007, 11:51:44 am »
what was so terrible about that other tread that was locked but I guess it's good that I'm not in charge.

When Ensberg claimed he was hurt last year, didn't they give him an MRI and found that there wasn't anything wrong with his shoulder?  I ask this because I'm wondering if it was more of a sign of pitchers figuring him out or him losing it and it carrying over to this season.  I seem to remember Garner saying he wasn't hurt at all. 

I know he has no trade value.  I'm just trying to jog my memory.  He's the single most frustrating Astro I've ever seen. 
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DS Andy Cartwright: Everyone and their mums is packin' round here!
Nicholas Angel: Like who?
DS Andy Wainwright: Farmers.
Nicholas Angel: Who else?
DS Andy Cartwright: Farmers' mums.

JimR

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2007, 11:56:55 am »
When Ensberg claimed he was hurt last year, didn't they give him an MRI and found that there wasn't anything wrong with his shoulder?  I seem to remember Garner saying he wasn't hurt at all. 


you're going to have to find a link to this before i'll believe it.

what i recall is that he got in trouble with Garner and management for saying he was ok when he was hurt.
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pravata

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2007, 12:00:42 pm »
what was so terrible about that other tread that was locked but I guess it's good that I'm not in charge.

When Ensberg claimed he was hurt last year, didn't they give him an MRI and found that there wasn't anything wrong with his shoulder?  I ask this because I'm wondering if it was more of a sign of pitchers figuring him out or him losing it and it carrying over to this season.  I seem to remember Garner saying he wasn't hurt at all. 

I know he has no trade value.  I'm just trying to jog my memory.  He's the single most frustrating Astro I've ever seen. 

The report was no structural damage, bruised is what they called it.  He hit .329 with 9 homeruns April 2006.  Then slumped, then injured the shoulder.  After that it was difficult to tell whether the shoulder or his approach was the problem.   This season it appears to be approach, but he'll have to fix that himself, with limited pt.  He does not listen to advice from coaches.

JGrave

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2007, 12:03:42 pm »
The report was no structural damage, bruised is what they called it.  He hit .329 with 9 homeruns April 2006.  Then slumped, then injured the shoulder.  After that it was difficult to tell whether the shoulder or his approach was the problem.   This season it appears to be approach, but he'll have to fix that himself, with limited pt.  He does not listen to advice from coaches.

Right, ok.  Thanks.

I seem to remember him saying he was injured around the middle of June and then not going on the DL until the middle of July. 
DS Andy Wainwright: You do know there are more guns in the country than there are in the city.
DS Andy Cartwright: Everyone and their mums is packin' round here!
Nicholas Angel: Like who?
DS Andy Wainwright: Farmers.
Nicholas Angel: Who else?
DS Andy Cartwright: Farmers' mums.

pravata

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2007, 12:06:31 pm »
Right, ok.  Thanks.

I seem to remember him saying he was injured around the middle of June and then not going on the DL until the middle of July. 

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2007, 12:08:01 pm »
you're going to have to find a link to this before i'll believe it.

what i recall is that he got in trouble with Garner and management for saying he was ok when he was hurt.

I never saw it in the paper, but I distinctly recall Garner telling Charlie Palillo on his radio show last year that Morgan wasn't hurt.  It surprised me because just about everyone in the media, here, and indeed the Astros organization was stating otherwise.
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JGrave

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2007, 12:08:21 pm »
Thanks for the links.

Too many Two For Flinching games on that shoulder ruined him.  
DS Andy Wainwright: You do know there are more guns in the country than there are in the city.
DS Andy Cartwright: Everyone and their mums is packin' round here!
Nicholas Angel: Like who?
DS Andy Wainwright: Farmers.
Nicholas Angel: Who else?
DS Andy Cartwright: Farmers' mums.

JimR

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2007, 12:19:50 pm »
I never saw it in the paper, but I distinctly recall Garner telling Charlie Palillo on his radio show last year that Morgan wasn't hurt.  It surprised me because just about everyone in the media, here, and indeed the Astros organization was stating otherwise.

a bruised shoulder is hurt. maybe that program was during the time that Morgan was denying an injury?
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pravata

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2007, 12:22:35 pm »
a bruised shoulder is hurt. maybe that program was during the time that Morgan was denying an injury?

here's the article we want Link

Noe

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2007, 12:27:29 pm »
I never saw it in the paper, but I distinctly recall Garner telling Charlie Palillo on his radio show last year that Morgan wasn't hurt.  It surprised me because just about everyone in the media, here, and indeed the Astros organization was stating otherwise.

During the Game of the Week broadcast of the Rangers/Astros, Eric Karros was talking about the type of manager Garner was.  The conversation was about Hunter Pence actually and the things that Garner had said to Karros about him.  Karros came away with the impression that Garner is a total player's manager type.  Meaning he will deflect and defend players from media scrutiny and try to focus on the good things a player brings to the table.  Even his criticism of the player are soft peddle type of slams.  And Karros ended his statement with "and that is why players love to play for Phil Garner."

Except maybe Chris Burke, but I digress.

Any way, it reminded me of when Larry Dierker was manager.  He would talk freely about his players to the media.  He had no shut off valve when he was asked about a player and he said some things that really irked his players.  He slammed Shane Reynolds during one playoff performance "He looked like he didn't want to be out there today", which basically ended whatever relationship Dierk ever had with Shane right then and there.  He slammed Billy Wagner when he was making a comeback in 2001, "His fastball looks very hittable now and he just doesn't throw as hard as he used too!", which lead to Waggs saying "Let him grab a bat and step in to see if I still throw hard!".  He blasted Craig Biggio once during his second year as manager (when he won the MOY award and the team was at 102 wins at the end of the season, lead by none other than Craig Biggio) which lead to a confrontation on-board a late night flight between the two.  Then he wrote some things about Brad Ausmus in his website columnist gig while manager that really irked guys like Hampton and others.

It's not that Dierker was not entitled to have said opinions of his players, it is just that he went to the media first to tell them what he thought of the players instead of going to the players themselves.  Phil Garner suffers from the opposite with the media.  He doesn't share with them his opinion of his own players and it turns into media fodder that Scraps is delusional about his players abilities, like say for instance Orlando Palmeiro.  Scraps knows what he has in Palmeiro, the media does not have to try and prod him to say it to them what he thinks.  He'll go to Palmeiro as a man and talk to him about his desire to see more out of him (which is what he is doing now).  But the media wants something, so Scraps gives it to them.

Sweet pablum.  It is a version of "manager's decision" only different.

Noe

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2007, 12:33:05 pm »
here's the article we want Link

"Listen, we talk out of both sides of our mouth," Garner says. "If a player doesn't gut it up and play, we complain about that. Let's praise the guy for going out and playing and not making any excuses."

See: Scott, Luke

mihoba

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2007, 12:44:52 pm »
The report was no structural damage, bruised is what they called it.  He hit .329 with 9 homeruns April 2006.  Then slumped, then injured the shoulder.  After that it was difficult to tell whether the shoulder or his approach was the problem.   This season it appears to be approach, but he'll have to fix that himself, with limited pt.  He does not listen to advice from coaches.

You nailed what I was going to point out.

After his torrid April, he hit .216 in May, the month before the injury (June 6th). Blaming his lack of pooduction on the shoulder is not the entire story here.
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2007, 12:52:18 pm »
During the Game of the Week broadcast of the Rangers/Astros, Eric Karros was talking about the type of manager Garner was.  The conversation was about Hunter Pence actually and the things that Garner had said to Karros about him.  Karros came away with the impression that Garner is a total player's manager type.  Meaning he will deflect and defend players from media scrutiny and try to focus on the good things a player brings to the table.  Even his criticism of the player are soft peddle type of slams.  And Karros ended his statement with "and that is why players love to play for Phil Garner."


That's one of the reasons I found it odd that he would say that Ensberg wasn't injured, and this was well past the midpoint of the season, so there was no more information to uncover.  It sounded as though he was saying Mo didn't need any excuse, he just needed to start hitting.  It was weird.  But no, I don't have proof - I heard it on a radio show.
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2007, 12:54:37 pm »
Question:

If Garner isn't going to play Ensberg, why do the Astros not put him on waivers?  Yeah, I know his salary is an issue.  But isn't it an issue that you are paying him to sit on the bench? 
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2007, 12:56:28 pm »
That's one of the reasons I found it odd that he would say that Ensberg wasn't injured, and this was well past the midpoint of the season, so there was no more information to uncover.  It sounded as though he was saying Mo didn't need any excuse, he just needed to start hitting.  It was weird.  But no, I don't have proof - I heard it on a radio show.

Good point.  I suspect he was deflecting the media from scrutiny or constantly asking MoBerg is he's hurt in order to give him a chance to play his way through it.  All I can figure he's doing.  Remember, he's talking to the media not the player which is a totally different conversation he has or will have every time.

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2007, 01:14:40 pm »
Question:

If Garner isn't going to play Ensberg, why do the Astros not put him on waivers?  Yeah, I know his salary is an issue.  But isn't it an issue that you are paying him to sit on the bench? 
I think the reason has to do with Ensberg value or perceived value.  Even though it is about as low as it has been since he has been in the majors, he still "might" have "some" value in a trade market, even as a throw in type to balance out a deal.  Given that, I think the club hopes to yield something for him, even if it is a b-type prospect.  You hold to him in case a team fighting for the playoffs loses their 3B, at that point even Morgan might look decent to them.

I think that is why he is there.  And while he never seems to use it anymore he does provide Righty power potential off the bench.

I am not sure what they might get for them, but I see Lane, Ensberg, Scott and even Lamb being trade bait this year, along with possibly Jennings, Wheeler, Lidge and Qualls.  I figure it could end up looking like a fire-sale of non-essential personal (ie Berkman, Lee, Pence, Oswalt).  Although I doubt what they might get for them, something is better than nothing.  I think all 4 of the position guys are replaceable, even with AAA guys.  That is how poorly they have played (although Lamb has been good lately, I still think he is fairly easy to replace by the time this team re-built).

pravata

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2007, 02:05:16 pm »
You nailed what I was going to point out.

After his torrid April, he hit .216 in May, the month before the injury (June 6th). Blaming his lack of pooduction on the shoulder is not the entire story here.

Because of the injured shoulder they gave him the benefit of the doubt that he could return to his April form. 

pravata

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2007, 02:07:31 pm »
I think the reason has to do with Ensberg value or perceived value.  Even though it is about as low as it has been since he has been in the majors, he still "might" have "some" value in a trade market, even as a throw in type to balance out a deal.  Given that, I think the club hopes to yield something for him, even if it is a b-type prospect.  You hold to him in case a team fighting for the playoffs loses their 3B, at that point even Morgan might look decent to them.

I think that is why he is there.  And while he never seems to use it anymore he does provide Righty power potential off the bench.

I am not sure what they might get for them, but I see Lane, Ensberg, Scott and even Lamb being trade bait this year, along with possibly Jennings, Wheeler, Lidge and Qualls.  I figure it could end up looking like a fire-sale of non-essential personal (ie Berkman, Lee, Pence, Oswalt).  Although I doubt what they might get for them, something is better than nothing.  I think all 4 of the position guys are replaceable, even with AAA guys.  That is how poorly they have played (although Lamb has been good lately, I still think he is fairly easy to replace by the time this team re-built).

It's not likely to happen.  If Purpura can be trusted (I'm on the wait and see) he says there are no "blockbuster" trades coming.  I take that to mean large numbers of players changing hands.  Lamb is a hot commodity, as a bench player.  I think we can see what happens when he plays every day.

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2007, 03:13:34 pm »
After that it was difficult to tell whether the shoulder or his approach was the problem.   This season it appears to be approach, but he'll have to fix that himself, with limited pt.  He does not listen to advice from coaches.

and speaking of the aforementioned, since-closed thread, when i listed ensberg among the misses, i was referring not just to his performance, but also his mental make-up and/or approach. he did the hiding (hiding behind?) an injury routine in 2004 and again at the end of the 2005 season... so how and/or why did his injury/slump/lack of disclosure, etc., seem to catch them so off-guard last year?

when a guy's in your system for 4-5 years before getting the call-up, is it unrealistic for a team to not have a handle on the guy's mentality?

pravata

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2007, 03:31:16 pm »
and speaking of the aforementioned, since-closed thread, when i listed ensberg among the misses, i was referring not just to his performance, but also his mental make-up and/or approach. he did the hiding (hiding behind?) an injury routine in 2004 and again at the end of the 2005 season... so how and/or why did his injury/slump/lack of disclosure, etc., seem to catch them so off-guard last year?

when a guy's in your system for 4-5 years before getting the call-up, is it unrealistic for a team to not have a handle on the guy's mentality?

Why no, of course, like you they are mind readers.  Ensberg wasnt "hiding behind" anything.

HPFRic

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2007, 03:40:27 pm »
Why no, of course, like you they are mind readers.  Ensberg wasnt "hiding behind" anything.
it doesn't require special, mystical powers to gauge a player's mental make-up, pravata. how he deals with adversity, for instance, is a quantifiable trait easily observed as a player ascends through your minor league system.

pravata

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2007, 03:44:39 pm »
it doesn't require special, mystical powers to gauge a player's mental make-up, pravata. how he deals with adversity, for instance, is a quantifiable trait easily observed as a player ascends through your minor league system.

Right, like for instance getting pulled over for DWI?  Ensberg is a completely known quantity.  Even us TZers know he does not take instruction.  Ensberg has hit very well for periods of time, some extended some short.  He has also had a couple injuries which have limited his effectiveness.  If you can separate the injury issue from the psychological issues, then yes, you are a mindreader.  Or a second guesser, do that, it's safer. 

JimR

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2007, 03:50:35 pm »
it doesn't require special, mystical powers to gauge a player's mental make-up, pravata. how he deals with adversity, for instance, is a quantifiable trait easily observed as a player ascends through your minor league system.

are you going to start this bullshit up again? your last effort got locked by Spack. STFU.
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2007, 03:54:32 pm »
and speaking of the aforementioned, since-closed thread, when i listed ensberg among the misses, i was referring not just to his performance, but also his mental make-up and/or approach. he did the hiding (hiding behind?) an injury routine in 2004 and again at the end of the 2005 season... so how and/or why did his injury/slump/lack of disclosure, etc., seem to catch them so off-guard last year?

when a guy's in your system for 4-5 years before getting the call-up, is it unrealistic for a team to not have a handle on the guy's mentality?

you do not have a fucking clue. Ensberg is playing horribly, but he is a great person. your accusing him of "hiding behind an injury routine" is reprehensible. his "mental makeup" in the minors was that of a tough, hard-nosed competitor. he was a team leader in RR, on and off the field.

you are wasting folks' time with this drivel. not a fucking clue.
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HPFRic

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2007, 04:18:24 pm »
are you going to start this bullshit up again? your last effort got locked by Spack. STFU.

yes, it was my drivel that led to the other thread getting locked; not your tired jack-off routine of calling everyone stupid. or, at least, dumber than you. you remain a disgrace and a cockleak all these many years later. and you know what? i kinda love for it, big bear. keep it up! we all admire you feverishly.

pravata, if he " does not take instruction" well, isn't that a red flag? and yes, i am a second-guesser - is that really the best that you can offer in response? because, seems to me, unless we're exclusively discussing "next year" every year, we're ALL second-guessers, save for the none of us who scout players, attend organizational meetings, have unlimuted access to player files, etc.

JimR

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2007, 04:22:28 pm »
yes, it was my drivel that led to the other thread getting locked; not your tired jack-off routine of calling everyone stupid. or, at least, dumber than you. you remain a disgrace and a cockleak all these many years later. and you know what? i kinda love for it, big bear. keep it up! we all admire you feverishly.


on what kind of person Ensberg is and on what his mental makeup in the organization was throughout the minors, i am infinitely smarter than you.


fuck off. this thread will be locked too.
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pravata

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2007, 04:23:15 pm »
yes, it was my drivel that led to the other thread getting locked; not your tired jack-off routine of calling everyone stupid. or, at least, dumber than you. you remain a disgrace and a cockleak all these many years later. and you know what? i kinda love for it, big bear. keep it up! we all admire you feverishly.

pravata, if he " does not take instruction" well, isn't that a red flag? and yes, i am a second-guesser - is that really the best that you can offer in response? because, seems to me, unless we're exclusively discussing "next year" every year, we're ALL second-guessers, save for the none of us who scout players, attend organizational meetings, have unlimuted access to player files, etc.

05 Ensberg was 5th in PoTY voting, Silver Slugger at 3rd.  06 he starts the season hitting .326, hurts his shoulder, now we're where we are.  Don't count me in your "second-guesser" crap.  Save that for your fellows who pay no attention to the organization, have no respect for the team you think you're a fan of, and prefer to make up your own stories.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2007, 07:16:19 pm by pravata »

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2007, 04:53:42 pm »
It seems more appropriate for Ensberg to be getting into a novel in the corner of a coffee shop instead of looking at strike 3 come down the middle of the plate in a late game situation.

Him and his boy Lane shrink in the clutch
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2007, 04:57:28 pm »
It seems more appropriate for Ensberg to be getting into a novel in the corner of a coffee shop instead of looking at strike 3 come down the middle of the plate in a late game situation.

Him and his boy Lane shrink in the clutch

you are full of shit, too.

why don't all you moaners and whiners and complainers get together and go to another site? this shit has got to stop or every damn thread will be locked eventually.

while you are at it, tell of of your exploits when you did not "shrink in the clutch." i'll bet you were fucking great.

fucking internet losers sitting at a keyboard and anonymously crititicizing the efforts and the guts of major league ballplayers.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2007, 07:31:32 pm by JimR »
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2007, 05:02:12 pm »
It seems more appropriate for Ensberg to be getting into a novel in the corner of a coffee shop instead of looking at strike 3 come down the middle of the plate in a late game situation.

Him and his boy Lane shrink in the clutch

In his career, Ensberg has batted .266/.368/.478 overall, .254/.407/.481 with runners in scoring position and two outs and .272/.357/.472 in close and late situations.

pravata

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2007, 05:28:37 pm »
It seems more appropriate for Ensberg to be getting into a novel in the corner of a coffee shop instead of looking at strike 3 come down the middle of the plate in a late game situation.

Him and his boy Lane shrink in the clutch

What?  Explain this to us slowly, Ensberg watches pitches?  When did this start? And Morgan Ensberg is Jason Lane's father? That doesn't seem right.

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2007, 05:30:34 pm »
What?  Explain this to us slowly, Ensberg watches pitches?  When did this start? And Morgan Ensberg is Jason Lane's father? That doesn't seem right.

Perhaps there is a Lane Ensberg watching pitches in tee ball.
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2007, 06:03:14 pm »
you are full of shit, too.

why don't all you moaners and whiners and complainers get together and go to another site? this shit has got to stop or every damn thread will be locked eventually.

while you are at it, tell of of your exploits when you did npot "shrink in the clutch." i'll bet you were fucking great.

fucking internet losers sitting at a keyboard and anonymously crititicizing the efforts and the guts of major league ballplayers.

Posters like that are why I quit posting on UT football sites and why I enjoy reading and posting over here.  You could crash a server with the mindless rantings of the coulda-beens and never-weres who will line up to tell coaches and players how the cow ate the cabbage.

Apparently, though, they've found us.
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2007, 06:05:42 pm »
Posters like that are why I quit posting on UT football sites and why I enjoy reading and posting over here.  You could crash a server with the mindless rantings of the coulda-beens and never-weres who will line up to tell coaches and players how the cow ate the cabbage.

Apparently, though, they've found us.

that guy, no doubt, is one of the many clueless jerks who post on Orangebloods.com. "disastros" is a typical insight of those nerds and idiots.
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2007, 06:05:58 pm »
Posters like that are why I quit posting on UT football sites and why I enjoy reading and posting over here.  You could crash a server with the mindless rantings of the coulda-beens and never-weres who will line up to tell coaches and players how the cow ate the cabbage.

Apparently, though, they've found us.


And that differs from the regulars here, how....?

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2007, 06:07:21 pm »

And that differs from the regulars here, how....?

by light years. do not assume that because someone posts every day that the poster is a regular.
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2007, 06:12:46 pm »

And that differs from the regulars here, how....?

The "difference" lies in the presumption that a poster knows more, or could accomplish more, than the front office, coaching staff, or players.

It's an embarrassing combination of ignorance and arrogance.  Only problem is, most of the perpetrators don't have the self-awareness to be embarrassed.  Do you?
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2007, 06:26:39 pm »
Jesus.  A little adversity really brings out the bullshit.

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2007, 07:13:03 pm »
The "difference" lies in the presumption that a poster knows more, or could accomplish more, than the front office, coaching staff, or players.

It's an embarrassing combination of ignorance and arrogance.  Only problem is, most of the perpetrators don't have the self-awareness to be embarrassed.  Do you?

The arrogance of ignorance. 

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2007, 07:27:04 pm »
The arrogance of ignorance. 

i agree with you both, but i think it is more. it also is impotent rage. it is guys who have never been able to succeed in athletics taking cheap, anonymous shots at those who have always been successful athletes. somehow that makes them feel better about their own personal failures.

it is beyond pathetic.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2007, 07:41:01 pm by JimR »
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2007, 07:35:56 pm »
i agree with you both, but i think it is more. it also is impotent rage. it is guys who have never been able to succeed in athletics taking cheap, anonymous shots at those who have always been successful athletes. somehow that makes them feel better about their own personal failures.

it is beyond pathetic.

I agree that it's pathetic, but I don't think it's so much people trying to compensate for their own personal athletic failures. I think it's more a fundamental inability to appreciate the competitive atmosphere of sports when one person is trying his best to stop you from succeeding at what is already a difficult task. Most folks never face that in their day to day lives, which is why they equate a failure to get results in athletics with a lack of effort/hustle/trying/desire. That attidute results in thinking there must be something "wrong" with a player if he is not succeeding, because in most people's life just doing your job generally gets the desired results and praise.

I aslo think that "impotent rage" sums up that attitude perfectly.
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2007, 07:40:19 pm »
I agree that it's pathetic, but I don't think it's so much people trying to compensate for their own personal athletic failures. I think it's more a fundamental inability to appreciate the competitive atmosphere of sports when one person is trying his best to stop you from succeeding at what is already a difficult task. Most folks never face that in their day to day lives, which is why they equate a failure to get results in athletics with a lack of effort/hustle/trying/desire. That attidute results in thinking there must be something "wrong" with a player if he is not succeeding, because in most people's life just doing your job generally gets the desired results and praise.

I aslo think that "impotent rage" sums up that attitude perfectly.

not sure that explains to me why some POS here says that Ensberg "shrinks in the clutch." Morgan Ensberg was a star on an NCAA championship team at Southern Cal, which is not a bad baseball school. shrinks in the clutch, my ass. he is just playing like shit.
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2007, 07:42:26 pm »
i agree with you both, but i think it is more. it also is impotent rage. it is guys who have never been able to succeed in athletics taking cheap, anonymous shots at those who have always been successful athletes. somehow that makes them feel better about their own personal failures.

it is beyond pathetic.

It's like they care more about what they think the team should do than what the team actually does.  They're more interested in amusing themselves with these ramblings that they think have some relationship to reality and get really upset when they are confronted with the facts of what professionals who are paid to run a team actually think.  It's as if they would only be satisfied if people just agreed with whatever they said the teams should do.  It's almost like they are addicted to some sort of exhibitionist self amuse. 

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2007, 08:47:12 pm »
It's like they care more about what they think the team should do than what the team actually does.  They're more interested in amusing themselves with these ramblings that they think have some relationship to reality and get really upset when they are confronted with the facts of what professionals who are paid to run a team actually think.  It's as if they would only be satisfied if people just agreed with whatever they said the teams should do.  It's almost like they are addicted to some sort of exhibitionist self amuse. 

I think you're over analyzing the mindset of the people that come in here and merely post their opinion. 

There seems to be a knee jerk reaction to anyone or anything that goes against the group think around here.  Not to mention a lot of the opinions around here appear to be taken for the sake of being different and appearing more enlightened than the Justice reading masses.

pravata

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2007, 09:20:34 pm »
I think you're over analyzing the mindset of the people that come in here and merely post their opinion. 

There seems to be a knee jerk reaction to anyone or anything that goes against the group think around here.  Not to mention a lot of the opinions around here appear to be taken for the sake of being different and appearing more enlightened than the Justice reading masses.

Funny, I've heard that "group think" line before.  Many times really.  Almost as if there is a group out there that thinks that.  But, it's a fair cop, you've discovered our secret.  We are a group dedicated to thwarting the dessimination of your bright ideas.  And we're quite diabolical about it too.  But, keep at it, one day you'll show us.  What? Oh, certainly, we'll wait.  Take your time.

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #45 on: June 27, 2007, 09:21:43 pm »
I think you're over analyzing the mindset of the people that come in here and merely post their opinion. 

There seems to be a knee jerk reaction to anyone or anything that goes against the group think around here.  Not to mention a lot of the opinions around here appear to be taken for the sake of being different and appearing more enlightened than the Justice reading masses.

Jesus Christ...

OR maybe people here just ARE more enlightened than the Justice reading masses?

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #46 on: June 27, 2007, 09:26:15 pm »
The steps of trolling really should have a long-term version... the "group think" line is always in there.
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #47 on: June 27, 2007, 09:30:57 pm »
not sure that explains to me why some POS here says that Ensberg "shrinks in the clutch." Morgan Ensberg was a star on an NCAA championship team at Southern Cal, which is not a bad baseball school. shrinks in the clutch, my ass. he is just playing like shit.

The thing is... you don't have to be a bad guy, a bad player or a "choker" to succumb to a mental block.
Think about Steve Blass, Rick Ankiel, Chuck Knoblauch... or people from other sports, like Tom Watson. They're all very talented athletes, who had already accomplished a lot on the big stage, under severe pressure. Most of them appear to be hard workers and decent, "character" guys.

If there's any common denominator... it may not be caring too little but caring too much...
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #48 on: June 27, 2007, 09:48:29 pm »
Funny, I've heard that "group think" line before.  Many times really.  Almost as if there is a group out there that thinks that.  But, it's a fair cop, you've discovered our secret.  We are a group dedicated to thwarting the dessimination of your bright ideas.  And we're quite diabolical about it too.  But, keep at it, one day you'll show us.  What? Oh, certainly, we'll wait.  Take your time.


I can only respond with a...What?  That was so absurd, no response should be necessary, but here we go:

This has nothing to do with me, or my ideas.   I rarely post here (and yes, I'm sure you're pleased), and if people agree, so be it.  If they don't, well, I'll survive. 

Take some advice from me:  It's an internet fan forum.  Relax.  You may be reading a bit too much into all of this.


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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #49 on: June 27, 2007, 09:58:55 pm »

I can only respond with a...What?  That was so absurd, no response should be necessary, but here we go:

This has nothing to do with me, or my ideas.   I rarely post here (and yes, I'm sure you're pleased), and if people agree, so be it.  If they don't, well, I'll survive. 

Take some advice from me:  It's an internet fan forum.  Relax.  You may be reading a bit too much into all of this.

enlighten us. tell us where we go wrong. it is all part of the steps before you say goodbye.
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #50 on: June 27, 2007, 10:28:36 pm »
Jesus Christ...

OR maybe people here just ARE more enlightened than the Justice reading masses?



If not, then Spack ought to enter the OWA self-destruct sequence.
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #51 on: June 28, 2007, 01:24:30 am »
If not, then Spack ought to enter the OWA self-destruct sequence.

And I always figured this place would just blink out of existence when Pravata and NeilT agreed on something.
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #52 on: June 28, 2007, 05:37:08 am »

I can only respond with a...What?  That was so absurd, no response should be necessary,


Shoulda stopped here, bud.
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #53 on: June 28, 2007, 06:34:30 am »
When the Clark is dead, Spack will eat his spleen. Before he dies, Spack will put his posts under the knife so the Clark will see his threads wiped out forever...

Makes me laugh every time I encounter it.

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #54 on: June 28, 2007, 09:19:49 am »
The expectations of this team are that we make the playoffs at the very least.  I think production is necessary out of the 3B if you are planning on playing Ausmus and Everett in the lineup.  I just personally don't feel that Ensberg brings enough production out of 3B if Everett and Ausmus are in the lineup.  We know what we get offensively from SS and C...Ensberg's inconsistent shortcomings don't match up well with what we have offensively at SS and C. 

Maybe Ensberg was a great player at USC.  Admitedly i didn't watch him at USC.  Maybe he was good in the clutch.  Maybe he was a CWS MVP.  I don't really know and frankly don't give a rat's ass.  He is in his 5th full season in the majors leagues and he's been in a "slump" for the past season and a half.  On a team that has little or no offensive production out of their SS and C positions I don't think a season and a half slump for our 'slugger' of a 3B is acceptable.  What do we do?  Play him and hope he comes out of his slump??  Have him ride the bench?  There's a whole lot of defending Ensberg.  That's fine.  But what the hell do you do with a 3B who is hitting .214 that you had planned on hitting 5th in your lineup on opening day?  Just throw him right back into the 5 hole in the lineup???
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #55 on: June 28, 2007, 09:28:44 am »
The expectations of this team are that we make the playoffs at the very least.  I think production is necessary out of the 3B if you are planning on playing Ausmus and Everett in the lineup.  I just personally don't feel that Ensberg brings enough production out of 3B if Everett and Ausmus are in the lineup.  We know what we get offensively from SS and C...Ensberg's inconsistent shortcomings don't match up well with what we have offensively at SS and C. 

Maybe Ensberg was a great player at USC.  Admitedly i didn't watch him at USC.  Maybe he was good in the clutch.  Maybe he was a CWS MVP.  I don't really know and frankly don't give a rat's ass.  He is in his 5th full season in the majors leagues and he's been in a "slump" for the past season and a half.  On a team that has little or no offensive production out of their SS and C positions I don't think a season and a half slump for our 'slugger' of a 3B is acceptable.  What do we do?  Play him and hope he comes out of his slump??  Have him ride the bench?  There's a whole lot of defending Ensberg.  That's fine.  But what the hell do you do with a 3B who is hitting .214 that you had planned on hitting 5th in your lineup on opening day?  Just throw him right back into the 5 hole in the lineup???

what you said was "he and his boy Lane shrink in the clutch." take that shit back to orangebloods or wherever you came from. it is not funny, and this site does not welcome the "they suck" type of "fan."

what the fuck difference do SS and C make? do you understand that those are defensive positions? that tired old bullshit will not play here. it just demonstrates your ignorance and lack of understanding anything other than a fantasy team. i question whether you even watch the games. Ensberg is not a fulltime player, and he has hit in many spots in the lineup.

if you want to talk baseball, stay here. if this is an example of how you do that, read more and post less. or, you might try astrosdaily. you'll have a welcoming choir there.
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #56 on: June 28, 2007, 09:35:24 am »
When the Clark is dead, Spack will eat his spleen. Before he dies, Spack will put his posts under the knife so the Clark will see his threads wiped out forever...

Makes me laugh every time I encounter it.

Great movie, great line, great parody.

Spack Maqua

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #57 on: June 28, 2007, 09:39:01 am »
what you said was "he and his boy Lane shrink in the clutch." take that shit back to orangebloods or wherever you came from. it is not funny, and this site does not welcome the "they suck" type of "fan."

If you want to generalize the "type of fan" i am based a couple posts, then go ahead and use your jump to conclusions mat.  I think its a bit ignorant myself and certainly nothing to get worked up about.  I really don't think the Astros players in general suck.  I don't really like Lane or Ensberg on the team and think management has given them way too many chances.  

Matter of fact i didn't watch the game yesterday.  I was busy tenidng to this daily routine called a 'job'.  I'd be more than happy to hear your insight on Ensberg's 0-4 day if you'd like to fill me in.  
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #58 on: June 28, 2007, 09:40:43 am »
But what the hell do you do with a 3B who is hitting .214 that you had planned on hitting 5th in your lineup on opening day?  Just throw him right back into the 5 hole in the lineup???
Well he might not be the 3B, but Andruw Jones isn't even batting .200 yet the Braves still trot him out in the 4 hole each night, and yet still find ways to win.  Go figure.

Now just to be clear, I am not defending Ensberg, but I am going to argue the point you are trying to make.

I would love to see Morgan regain 05 approach and results at the plate.  I think he is having mental issues like we are seeing Berkman have.  I don't think it is his approach (like most do) or his swing, I think it is mental.  That does not mean he is not mentally tough or shrinks in the clutch.  There are a bunch of hitters going through issues this season for what ever reasons.  Morgan is just one of them.

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #59 on: June 28, 2007, 09:41:00 am »
If you want to generalize the "type of fan" i am based a couple posts, then go ahead and use your jump to conclusions mat.  I think its a bit ignorant myself and certainly nothing to get worked up about.  I really don't think the Astros players in general suck.  I don't really like Lane or Ensberg on the team and think management has given them way too many chances.  

Matter of fact i didn't watch the game yesterday.  I was busy tenidng to this daily routine called a 'job'.  I'd be more than happy to hear your insight on Ensberg's 0-4 day if you'd like to fill me in.  

When would you have gotten rid of Ensberg, and how?

pravata

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #60 on: June 28, 2007, 09:42:06 am »
Well he might not be the 3B, but Andruw Jones isn't even batting .200 yet the Braves still trot him out in the 4 hole each night, and yet still find ways to win.  Go figure.

Now just to be clear, I am not defending Ensberg, but I am going to argue the point you are trying to make.

I would love to see Morgan regain 05 approach and results at the plate.  I think he is having mental issues like we are seeing Berkman have.  I don't think it is his approach (like most do) or his swing, I think it is mental.  That does not mean he is not mentally tough or shrinks in the clutch.  There are a bunch of hitters going through issues this season for what ever reasons.  Morgan is just one of them.

How are you differentiating "approach" and "mental"?

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #61 on: June 28, 2007, 09:45:26 am »
I aslo think that "impotent rage" sums up that attitude perfectly.

I think it's simpler than that. People need an explanation for things. He didn't try hard enough. He's a choker. He doesn't care. The manager or general manager didn't make the right moves.

Sometimes stuff just happens, and there aren't any tangible steps someone could've taken to change it.

Maybe that induces impotent rage in some people, but I don't suspect that everybody who feels a need for an explanation is led to anger.

Somewhat ironic, however, is the amount of rage that is provoked in this forum by sportswriters, bloggers and posters who engage in the aforementioned thinking. You'd think someone's mother were insulted judging by the virtiol that gets expressed. I'm not sure I'd call it groupthink, but it's a pretty consistent, predictible response here.

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #62 on: June 28, 2007, 09:45:57 am »
I would love to see Morgan regain 05 approach and results at the plate.  I think he is having mental issues like we are seeing Berkman have.  I don't think it is his approach (like most do) or his swing, I think it is mental.  That does not mean he is not mentally tough or shrinks in the clutch.  There are a bunch of hitters going through issues this season for what ever reasons.  Morgan is just one of them.

Don't get me wrong.  I would too.  I hope he does come around if he is kept around.  I also agree that it is mental as well.  Whether or not he snaps out of it worries me.  

I was arguing that Ensberg combined with what we got at SS/C is just a bad offensive combo.  I stick to that.  The Braves pull games out with their star CF hitting right above the mendoza line, but they also have Renteria/McCann at SS/C respectively
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #63 on: June 28, 2007, 09:46:53 am »
If you want to generalize the "type of fan" i am based a couple posts, then go ahead and use your jump to conclusions mat.  I think its a bit ignorant myself and certainly nothing to get worked up about.  I really don't think the Astros players in general suck.  I don't really like Lane or Ensberg on the team and think management has given them way too many chances.  

Matter of fact i didn't watch the game yesterday.  I was busy tenidng to this daily routine called a 'job'.  I'd be more than happy to hear your insight on Ensberg's 0-4 day if you'd like to fill me in.  

that makes your "they suck" about Ensberg and Lane post more ignorant. incredible, really, especially since Lane has been in AAA for quite some time.

try astrosdaily or limit your posting to orangebloods. you'll be welcome in both places.

glad you have a job. most of us do.
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #64 on: June 28, 2007, 09:47:26 am »
How are you differentiating "approach" and "mental"?
More of a confidence thing.  If you recall in 05 he was among the league leaders in pitches seen per AB, which means he was highly selective even then.  The real difference was when he did make contact a significantly higher percentage actually did something positive.  Lately even when he puts a good swing on it, they tend to be "at-em" balls.  I just think he swing is not as confident and thus even when he makes contact they just aren't "good swings", ala Berkman this year (until recently).

Given how long it has been an issue with Morgan, I also wonder if he is seeing the ball as well lately.  That can happen to even the best of them.  But when I speak of mental in this case, it has mostly to do with confidence at the plate.  Approach to me is more a standard plan when at the plate, like Pence would be considered to take and aggressive approach and someone like Morgan would be more selective.  Both approaches work, just what the hitter is more comfortable with.

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #65 on: June 28, 2007, 09:48:55 am »
When would you have gotten rid of Ensberg, and how?

I was wanting to trade him in the offseason and hoping Houston would sign Huff.  But seeing Huff's numbers thus far, in hindsight he would not have been much of an upgrade
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #66 on: June 28, 2007, 09:49:46 am »
Don't get me wrong.  I would too.  I hope he does come around if he is kept around.  I also agree that it is mental as well.  Whether or not he snaps out of it worries me.  

I was arguing that Ensberg combined with what we got at SS/C is just a bad offensive combo.  I stick to that.  The Braves pull games out with their star CF hitting right above the mendoza line, but they also have Renteria/McCann at SS/C respectively

Ensberg isn't getting much playing time anymore, is he? And while Ausmus and Everett offer little in the way of offense, right now the biggest offensive problem on this club is Lance Berkman playing well below his standard level of production. If Berkman and the bullpen were performing this season they way they performed last season, this team would be at or above .500 and within striking distance of first place in this weak division.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 09:53:32 am by Arky Vaughan »

pravata

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #67 on: June 28, 2007, 09:50:12 am »
More of a confidence thing.  If you recall in 05 he was among the league leaders in pitches seen per AB, which means he was highly selective even then.  The real difference was when he did make contact a significantly higher percentage actually did something positive.  Lately even when he puts a good swing on it, they tend to be "at-em" balls.  I just think he swing is not as confident and thus even when he makes contact they just aren't "good swings", ala Berkman this year (until recently).

Given how long it has been an issue with Morgan, I also wonder if he is seeing the ball as well lately.  That can happen to even the best of them.  But when I speak of mental in this case, it has mostly to do with confidence at the plate.  Approach to me is more a standard plan when at the plate, like Pence would be considered to take and aggressive approach and someone like Morgan would be more selective.  Both approaches work, just what the hitter is more comfortable with.

I got you.  Last season, with the shoulder thing, he started pushing the bat at the ball.  Some contact, didn't go anywhere. 

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #68 on: June 28, 2007, 09:51:45 am »
that makes your "they suck" about Ensberg and Lane post more ignorant. incredible, really, especially since Lane has been in AAA for quite some time.

try astrosdaily or limit your posting to orangebloods. you'll be welcome in both places.

glad you have a job. most of us do.

I don't really follow your logic with the ignorance.  This is a pretty subjective argument and we disagree.  There's not much more to it than that.  I've been to astrosdaily.  Never heard of orangebloods though.  Thanks for throwing out the welcome mat for me though
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #69 on: June 28, 2007, 09:51:48 am »
I was wanting to trade him in the offseason and hoping Houston would sign Huff.  But seeing Huff's numbers thus far, in hindsight he would not have been much of an upgrade

If Purpura could get decent value for Ensberg during the offseason, I suspect he would be gone. But given how far he's fallen, I think the only team that can tolerate him right now is the one he's always played for.

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #70 on: June 28, 2007, 09:52:44 am »
Ensberg isn't getting much playing time anymore, is he? And while Ausmus and Everett offer little in the way of offense, right now the biggest offensive problem on this club is Lance Berkman playing well below his standard level of production. If Berkman and the bullpen were performing this season they way they performed last season, this team would at or above .500 and within striking distance of first place in this weak division.
Well Berkman hasn't been the problem the last couple of weeks, as he has seemed to "find himself" lateley.  The problem now is the pitching, or more specific the bullpen.  But then it seems just when you fix one problem, another arises... that is sometimes how it goes some seasons.  For whatever reason this year, the team is having a hard time overcoming these things, like they have in the past.

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #71 on: June 28, 2007, 09:53:00 am »
I was wanting to trade him in the offseason and hoping Houston would sign Huff.  But seeing Huff's numbers thus far, in hindsight he would not have been much of an upgrade

How do you know this wasn't the club's plan too?  It takes two to make a trade.
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #72 on: June 28, 2007, 09:59:12 am »
I think it's simpler than that. People need an explanation for things. He didn't try hard enough. He's a choker. He doesn't care. The manager or general manager didn't make the right moves.

Sometimes stuff just happens, and there aren't any tangible steps someone could've taken to change it.

Maybe that induces impotent rage in some people, but I don't suspect that everybody who feels a need for an explanation is led to anger.

Somewhat ironic, however, is the amount of rage that is provoked in this forum by sportswriters, bloggers and posters who engage in the aforementioned thinking. You'd think someone's mother were insulted judging by the virtiol that gets expressed. I'm not sure I'd call it groupthink, but it's a pretty consistent, predictible response here.

ah, Arky, you have the quiet confidence of one to whom all answers are given by a page of numbers.

to anyone who has played or coached baseball at any level, including LL, the "he choked" or "he sucks" explanation for failures provokes strong emotions. Teddy Ballgame failed between 6-7 times for every 10 ABs during his career. failure is very much a part of baseball, and many (not a majority) of the TZ get frustrated and sometimes angry at those who rail at or ridicule MLB players for their failures. baseball is a cruel and humbling game. failure is very much a part of playing baseball. the "he sucks" crowd simply does not understand and will not listen to those who do.

there is no groupthink here. there are several who do understand the game and who do think alike when the media and those who parrot the media go on the attack.

clearly someone who is not performing will lose his job. that will happen to Ensberg and to you and me. that does not make any of us chokers or persons worthy of ridicule. we were just not good enough when the time came for evaluation. that's baseball and that's life.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 10:15:59 am by JimR »
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #73 on: June 28, 2007, 10:00:10 am »
If Purpura could get decent value for Ensberg during the offseason, I suspect he would be gone. But given how far he's fallen, I think the only team that can tolerate him right now is the one he's always played for.

Lane (and Quintero??) dropped all the way though waivers and into AAA.  Not saying that Ensberg would, but it just goes to show how hard it is to trade some people.  Can't even give some away.  And Mo is getting over $4mm this year, which means you'd have to sweeten any deal that includes him, just to offset his salary and crap play.  But sweeten it with what?  The Astros have almost all their talent on the big club, and their still more likely to break .400 on the way down than .500 on the way up!
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #74 on: June 28, 2007, 10:00:26 am »
How do you know this wasn't the club's plan too?  It takes two to make a trade.

I don't know.  Perhaps i should have rephrased my prevous remark.  I was hoping that would happen.
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« Reply #75 on: June 28, 2007, 10:03:08 am »
I was wanting to trade him in the offseason and hoping Houston would sign Huff.  But seeing Huff's numbers thus far, in hindsight he would not have been much of an upgrade

"In hindsight" good phrase.  At the time this is exactly what Purpura wanted to do.  He couldn't get anything for Ensberg, despite extensive shopping at the Winter Meetings.  And Huff, seeing the market, was asking for a large contract.  After the Astros had to pass, how many 3bs can they have?  And considering other teams were filling their 3b openings from within and from Japan, the Orioles signed Huff for less than he was asking.  So, from your comments here, you are actually arguing with yourself.  Pay more attention to the Astros and less to what you think they should do.

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #76 on: June 28, 2007, 10:03:28 am »
If Purpura could get decent value for Ensberg during the offseason, I suspect he would be gone. But given how far he's fallen, I think the only team that can tolerate him right now is the one he's always played for.

the Delectable Ms. Footer says that Ensberg and Lane are "not tradeable" b/c no one wants them. don't these "fans" read or listen? Morgan was on the trading block every day after last year. he told his close friends that he would be traded. no one wanted him.
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #77 on: June 28, 2007, 10:04:11 am »
ah, Arky, you have the quiet confidence of one to whom all answers are given by a page of numbers.

to anyone who has played or coached baseball at any level, including LL, the "he choked" or "he sucks" explanation for failures provokes strong emotions. Teddy Ballgame failed between 6-7 times for every 10 ABs during his career. failure is very much a part of baseball, and many (not a majority) of the TZ get frustrated and sometimes angry at those who rail at or ridicule MLB for their failures. baseball is a cruel and humbling game. failure is very much a part of playing baseball. the "he sucks" crowd simply does not understand and will not listen to those who do.

there is no groupthink here. there are several who do understand the game and who do think alike when the mewdia and those who parrot the media go on the attack.

clearly someone who is not performing will lose his job. that will happen to Ensberg and to you and me. that does not make any of us chokers or persons worthy of ridicule. we were just not good enough when the time came for evaluation. that's baseball and that's life.

It's still tough for me to fathom how only 2 teams made the postseason for so long. Imagine how that woud go over now.
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #78 on: June 28, 2007, 10:04:32 am »
I was wanting to trade him in the offseason and hoping Houston would sign Huff.  But seeing Huff's numbers thus far, in hindsight he would not have been much of an upgrade

Purpura was wanting to trade him too.  This offseason.  And no one wanted him, plus Huff told them his asking price and they got sticker shock.  That is why Ensberg and Purpura had a talk this winter and he, along with Lane, were given one more chance.

I think evaluating the performance after the fact to make a pronouncement on the decision making really sucks.  I smacks of being the type that would question a manager's decision on why he hit and run in a certain situation because it didn't work.  Hardly the way to judge a decision, IMHO of course.

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #79 on: June 28, 2007, 10:17:58 am »
Purpura was wanting to trade him too.  This offseason.  And no one wanted him, plus Huff told them his asking price and they got sticker shock.  That is why Ensberg and Purpura had a talk this winter and he, along with Lane, were given one more chance.

I think evaluating the performance after the fact to make a pronouncement on the decision making really sucks.  I smacks of being the type that would question a manager's decision on why he hit and run in a certain situation because it didn't work.  Hardly the way to judge a decision, IMHO of course.

I guess i don't have access to the insider information.  If Purpura is attempting to trade Ensberg in the offseason isn't that almost conceding that he does not want him as the starting 3B.  If i'm trying to get rid of a guy that's a pretty clear indicater that i don't want him on the team. 

Besides i didn't actually say he sucked.  I said he should be in the corner of a coffee getting into a good novel rather than playing 3B....essentially not on the team.  If Purpura trys to trade him then...don't that mean...essentially he doesn't want him on the team either?
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #80 on: June 28, 2007, 10:19:09 am »
I think it's simpler than that. People need an explanation for things. He didn't try hard enough. He's a choker. He doesn't care. The manager or general manager didn't make the right moves.

Sometimes stuff just happens, and there aren't any tangible steps someone could've taken to change it.

Maybe that induces impotent rage in some people, but I don't suspect that everybody who feels a need for an explanation is led to anger.

Somewhat ironic, however, is the amount of rage that is provoked in this forum by sportswriters, bloggers and posters who engage in the aforementioned thinking. You'd think someone's mother were insulted judging by the virtiol that gets expressed. I'm not sure I'd call it groupthink, but it's a pretty consistent, predictible response here.

Probably true for most if not all of those who have ever held a bat in their hands while trying to hit a fastball, curve or slider, not to mention a splitter.  Or throw a ball from the hill or across the diamond to first base to get a batter out.  Or made a running catch in the gap.  Yes, I would imagine that the response to a "they suck!" pronouncement by a lawnmower repair man would be just as you just described: consistent, predictable and full of vitrol.

I would imagine that if I stepped into a sabremetric meeting and yelled "FANTACRAP!" to everything brilliant and well thought out that anyone said, I'd get a similar predictable, consistent and full of vitrol reaction.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 10:26:17 am by Noe in Austin »

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #81 on: June 28, 2007, 10:20:27 am »
I guess i don't have access to the insider information.  If Purpura is attempting to trade Ensberg in the offseason isn't that almost conceding that he does not want him as the starting 3B.  If i'm trying to get rid of a guy that's a pretty clear indicater that i don't want him on the team. 

Besides i didn't actually say he sucked.  I said he should be in the corner of a coffee getting into a good novel rather than playing 3B....essentially not on the team.  If Purpura trys to trade him then...don't that mean...essentially he doesn't want him on the team either?

here is what you said: "Him and his boy Lane shrink in the clutch"

go back and check it.

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #82 on: June 28, 2007, 10:24:36 am »
I guess i don't have access to the insider information.  If Purpura is attempting to trade Ensberg in the offseason isn't that almost conceding that he does not want him as the starting 3B.  If i'm trying to get rid of a guy that's a pretty clear indicater that i don't want him on the team. 
Well Manny Ramierez has been put through waivers every year for the past 3 or 4, does that mean Boston doesn't want him?

Sometimes you do things with the hope of improving your ballclub and not just to "get rid of somebody".

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #83 on: June 28, 2007, 10:25:16 am »
I guess i don't have access to the insider information.

You meant Footer?  Too bad, are they blocking your access to Astros.com?

Quote
If Purpura is attempting to trade Ensberg in the offseason isn't that almost conceding that he does not want him as the starting 3B.

Nope.  It was more a concession that he'd like to get Huff in the mix and when you have two viable candidates for one spot, one becomes redundant.  In addition to that, you expect a good return for the player, not the proverbial "bucket of used baseball" that fans usually say they would require.  This is the part that is usually lost to those who work on a level of pablum when it comes to baseball.  You don't make a trade because you think in terms of getting rid of someone, because if you do, it's because he's a cancer on the club and you'd rather just put *anybody* in the role.  But in this case, had they signed Huff, Ensberg would've been redundant because he's not a bench player.

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If i'm trying to get rid of a guy that's a pretty clear indicater that i don't want him on the team.

Did Ensberg beat his wife?  Your wife?  What?  Did I miss something about the emotion you're trying to insert into this with Purpura.  Newsflash: GMs don't work under the fan's type of emotion of "getting rid" of a guy. 

Quote
Besides i didn't actually say he sucked.  I said he should be in the corner of a coffee getting into a good novel rather than playing 3B....essentially not on the team.  If Purpura trys to trade him then...don't that mean...essentially he doesn't want him on the team either?

Oh Deere Lowered, this is stupid.  I give up.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 10:29:26 am by Noe in Austin »

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #84 on: June 28, 2007, 10:27:52 am »
Sometimes you do things with the hope of improving your ballclub and not just to "get rid of somebody".

Eggszactly!  Well said!

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #85 on: June 28, 2007, 10:29:31 am »
here is what you said: "Him and his boy Lane shrink in the clutch"

go back and check it.

you're starting to scramble around now. just stop and learn.

Yeah i did say that.  Didn't realize it would get blown out of proportion.  To expand, many times i see Ensberg and Lane in critical situations they both look like deer caught in the headlights.  The mental approach does not seem to be there.  I notice this with Lane and Ensberg and do not notice it with many other Astros players.  Watching the swings Lane takes at times are horrible.  Watching Ensberg take strike 3 without even swinging the bat just gets tough to watch.
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #86 on: June 28, 2007, 10:31:01 am »
Yeah i did say that.  Didn't realize it would get blown out of proportion.  To expand, many times i see Ensberg and Lane in critical situations they both look like deer caught in the headlights.  The mental approach does not seem to be there.  I notice this with Lane and Ensberg and do not notice it with many other Astros players.  Watching the swings Lane takes at times are horrible.  Watching Ensberg take strike 3 without even swinging the bat just gets tough to watch.


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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #87 on: June 28, 2007, 10:31:14 am »
Yeah i did say that.  Didn't realize it would get blown out of proportion.  To expand, many times i see Ensberg and Lane in critical situations they both look like deer caught in the headlights.  The mental approach does not seem to be there.  I notice this with Lane and Ensberg and do not notice it with many other Astros players.  Watching the swings Lane takes at times are horrible.  Watching Ensberg take strike 3 without even swinging the bat just gets tough to watch.


I think Ensberg is like a deer stuck in the headlights whether the game's on the line or not. I think your "clutch" comment doesn't really have much basis in fact.

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #88 on: June 28, 2007, 10:32:21 am »
Yeah i did say that.  Didn't realize it would get blown out of proportion.  To expand, many times i see Ensberg and Lane in critical situations they both look like deer caught in the headlights.  The mental approach does not seem to be there.  I notice this with Lane and Ensberg and do not notice it with many other Astros players.  Watching the swings Lane takes at times are horrible.  Watching Ensberg take strike 3 without even swinging the bat just gets tough to watch.


Do you have an eye condition? Is someone strapping you to your chair?  What keeps things interesting is why is Ensberg taking strike 3.  What about his mental approach can you deduce from his actions and also what he says?

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #89 on: June 28, 2007, 10:32:50 am »
I think Ensberg is like a deer stuck in the headlights whether the game's on the line or not. I think your "clutch" comment doesn't really have much basis in fact.
It's his eyes... he has always looked like that.

And I agree his approach is always the same, but then it was in 05 too, so it is hard to call that his flaw.

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #90 on: June 28, 2007, 10:34:08 am »
Yeah i did say that.  Didn't realize it would get blown out of proportion.  To expand, many times i see Ensberg and Lane in critical situations they both look like deer caught in the headlights.  The mental approach does not seem to be there.  

You've been presented with both statistical and anecdotal evidence that contradicts this, but you're sticking to it.

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I notice this with Lane and Ensberg and do not notice it with many other Astros players.

Go check yesterday's GZ thread.  Plenty of people will criicize an approach for an AB.  This is far, far different than "shrink in the clutch".

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 Watching the swings Lane takes at times are horrible.

And now you only have to do so in Round Rock.

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 Watching Ensberg take strike 3 without even swinging the bat just gets tough to watch.

Which has nothing to do with "clutch", but rather, as at least 5 people have pointed out, his overall approach to hitting.
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #91 on: June 28, 2007, 10:38:39 am »
Wow....as long as we are being critical...wouldn't 'clutch' situations be inclusive in hitting situations in general?

But...i think i am seeing the light...I'm wrong....and everyone else is right
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #92 on: June 28, 2007, 10:40:31 am »
Wow....as long as we are being critical...wouldn't 'clutch' situations be inclusive in hitting situations in general?

But...i think i am seeing the light...I'm wrong....and everyone else is right

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #93 on: June 28, 2007, 10:40:45 am »
Wow....as long as we are being critical...wouldn't 'clutch' situations be inclusive in hitting situations in general?

If you're going to use words to mean different things than what 99.9% of the population thinks they mean, you'd be wise to clarify this.
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #94 on: June 28, 2007, 10:41:37 am »
Wow....as long as we are being critical...wouldn't 'clutch' situations be inclusive in hitting situations in general?

But...i think i am seeing the light...I'm wrong....and everyone else is right

yes, you are wrong, but "everyone" is not posting. just a few are.

what is clear is that you have no knowledge of how baseball is played. none.
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #95 on: June 28, 2007, 10:42:46 am »
what is clear is that you have no knowledge of how baseball is played. none.

I think that is crystal clear
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #96 on: June 28, 2007, 10:44:04 am »
But...i think i am seeing the light...I'm wrong....and everyone else is right

You're not wrong, you're different.  As such, why wouldn't your difference be pointed out?  If you want same-ness, there a plenty of places that would crown you the one-eyed King!  Plenty.

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #97 on: June 28, 2007, 10:44:52 am »
Wow....as long as we are being critical...wouldn't 'clutch' situations be inclusive in hitting situations in general?

I don't understand what you're saying here. Is it that every plate appearance is in a clutch situation?

My point is that over the course of his career, Ensberg has hit about as well with runners in scoring position or close and late as he has hit overall. In other words, there is nothing to indicate that he is less effective when the game is on the line.

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« Reply #98 on: June 28, 2007, 10:45:59 am »
You're not wrong, you're different.  As such, why wouldn't your difference be pointed out?  If you want same-ness, there a plenty of places that would crown you the one-eyed King!  Plenty.

He ain't wrong, he's just different... but his pride won't let him do things to make you think he's right.
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #99 on: June 28, 2007, 10:47:36 am »
You're not wrong, you're different. 

Really.  I definetely got the feeling that this "opinion" was completely objective and i have no knowledge of baseball.
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #100 on: June 28, 2007, 10:49:25 am »
Really.  I definetely got the feeling that this "opinion" was completely objective and i have no knowledge of baseball.

The framework of your opinion is not baseball acumen savy.  It is, however, well founded in those who will gladly yell "You suck" to Jay Powell as he walks off the mound!  The difference is what makes the reaction.

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #101 on: June 28, 2007, 10:49:48 am »
He ain't wrong, he's just different... but his pride won't let him do things to make you think he's right.

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #102 on: June 28, 2007, 10:51:40 am »
It is, however, well founded in those who will gladly yell "You suck" to Jay Powell as he walks off the mound! 

You know....i never was a Jay Powell fan either
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #103 on: June 28, 2007, 10:52:42 am »
Really.  I definetely got the feeling that this "opinion" was completely objective and i have no knowledge of baseball.

none of how the game is played. you probably watch games, and you may play fantasy baseball. dunno.
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #104 on: June 28, 2007, 10:55:14 am »
none of how the game is played. you probably watch games, and you may play fantasy baseball. dunno.

That's a little more toned down.  I was getting a full psychological evaluation earlier
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #105 on: June 28, 2007, 10:56:58 am »
You know....i never was a Jay Powell fan either

Color me shocked!

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #106 on: June 28, 2007, 10:58:16 am »
Color me shocked!

Would you believe i wasn't too into Tim Redding?!!???
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« Reply #107 on: June 28, 2007, 11:02:16 am »
Would you believe i wasn't too into Tim Redding?!!???

Apples and oranges, man.  Powell had a history of success.
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #108 on: June 28, 2007, 11:03:43 am »
Would you believe i wasn't too into Tim Redding?!!???

Would you believe I don't really care who you're *into"... NTTAWWT.  Now, are you done spamming the board or are you going to continue?

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #109 on: June 28, 2007, 11:04:58 am »
Wow....as long as we are being critical...wouldn't 'clutch' situations be inclusive in hitting situations in general?

But...i think i am seeing the light...I'm wrong....and everyone else is right

About that you are wrong.  How is detailing the bare facts of the situation right or wrong?

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #110 on: June 28, 2007, 11:06:14 am »
Really.  I definetely got the feeling that this "opinion" was completely objective and i have no knowledge of baseball.

I haven't been the one arguing this, I'm just trying to decipher your comments about Ensberg in the clutch. If you could clarify, that would be helpful.

Arky Vaughan

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #111 on: June 28, 2007, 11:16:22 am »
ah, Arky, you have the quiet confidence of one to whom all answers are given by a page of numbers.

to anyone who has played or coached baseball at any level, including LL, the "he choked" or "he sucks" explanation for failures provokes strong emotions. Teddy Ballgame failed between 6-7 times for every 10 ABs during his career. failure is very much a part of baseball, and many (not a majority) of the TZ get frustrated and sometimes angry at those who rail at or ridicule MLB players for their failures. baseball is a cruel and humbling game. failure is very much a part of playing baseball. the "he sucks" crowd simply does not understand and will not listen to those who do.

there is no groupthink here. there are several who do understand the game and who do think alike when the media and those who parrot the media go on the attack.

clearly someone who is not performing will lose his job. that will happen to Ensberg and to you and me. that does not make any of us chokers or persons worthy of ridicule. we were just not good enough when the time came for evaluation. that's baseball and that's life.

This is a fair point, Jim. I can't speak from the same experience you do, but it also annoys me to no end to hear people who think buying a ticket to a game entitles them to tell a player that he sucks or is a choker. I suppose challenging some of these people on the merits is a waste of time, since they can't or won't answer rationally. I just think ignoring them might work better than piling ignominy on them.

Arky Vaughan

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #112 on: June 28, 2007, 11:19:43 am »
I would imagine that if I stepped into a sabremetric meeting and yelled "FANTACRAP!" to everything brilliant and well thought out that anyone said, I'd get a similar predictable, consistent and full of vitrol reaction.

I agree with you, Noe, that there are plenty of people who would react this way, but one reason I don't care for Baseball Prospectus much is that they're so cavalier and mean-spirited about their opinions.

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #113 on: June 28, 2007, 11:20:33 am »
I haven't been the one arguing this, I'm just trying to decipher your comments about Ensberg in the clutch. If you could clarify, that would be helpful.

I was probably blowing off steam more than anything else.  The numbers have been presented to me, but  I'm not a big fan of the close and late situations stat.  I know how its calculated, but i think it is just overvalued.  I know this is going to usher in the question, "What do I consider a clutch situation?"  To be honest i don't really think a clutch situation is black and white.  This could be argued forever, but i'm still never going to fully buy into close and late situation stat.  Mostly because of its overuse.  

However i was merely stating that when i see Ensberg in situations i consider clutch situations he does not perform like the RBI guy that he is supposed to be.  I'll be the first to admit that i haven't been able to watch as many games this season as last season, but i still will stick to the same opinion.  Call it ignorant call it what you will.  I can't really come up with a specific situation in recent memory that Ensberg has faltered in a clutch situation.  On the flip side...i can't really think of a situation that Ensberg did come through in a clutch situation.

But considering i don't have a clear cut definition of a clutch situation i guess this is my problem to deal with.  
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #114 on: June 28, 2007, 11:21:46 am »
This is a fair point, Jim. I can't speak from the same experience you do, but it also annoys me to no end to hear people who think buying a ticket to a game entitles them to tell a player that he sucks or is a choker. I suppose challenging some of these people on the merits is a waste of time, since they can't or won't answer rationally. I just think ignoring them might work better than piling ignominy on them.

That is a fair point as well.

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #115 on: June 28, 2007, 11:22:19 am »
I was probably blowing off steam more than anything else.  The numbers have been presented to me, but  I'm not a big fan of the close and late situations stat.  I know how its calculated, but i think it is just overvalued.  I know this is going to usher in the question, "What do I consider a clutch situation?"  To be honest i don't really think a clutch situation is black and white.  This could be argued forever, but i'm still never going to fully buy into close and late situation stat.  Mostly because of its overuse.  

However i was merely stating that when i see Ensberg in situations i consider clutch situations he does not perform like the RBI guy that he is supposed to be.  I'll be the first to admit that i haven't been able to watch as many games this season as last season, but i still will stick to the same opinion.  Call it ignorant call it what you will.  I can't really come up with a specific situation in recent memory that Ensberg has faltered in a clutch situation.  On the flip side...i can't really think of a situation that Ensberg did come through in a clutch situation.

But considering i don't have a clear cut definition of a clutch situation i guess this is my problem to deal with.  

Again, I think the bigger indictment of Ensberg is not his failure in clutch situations, however they may be defined, but in his overall performance. In other words, his failure has been across the board.

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #116 on: June 28, 2007, 11:23:40 am »
I agree with you, Noe, that there are plenty of people who would react this way, but one reason I don't care for Baseball Prospectus much is that they're so cavalier and mean-spirited about their opinions.

But they do it without regard to what has spurred them to said attitude.  You mentioned reaction and I thought that was appropriate.  I think the reaction is rightly defined by you.  I merely mentioned that it goes with the territory of being this side of the lawnmower repair bidnezz I guess.

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #117 on: June 28, 2007, 11:24:39 am »
That is a fair point as well.

Thanks. Also consider that from a purely stat-geek perspective, the "he's not clutch" tag is particularly aggravating, since a declaration of belief in clutch ability is supposedly heathenistic or heretical.

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #118 on: June 28, 2007, 11:26:01 am »
Thanks. Also consider that from a purely stat-geek perspective, the "he's not clutch" tag is particularly aggravating, since a declaration of belief in clutch ability is supposedly heathenistic or heretical.

Clutch hitters weigh the same as a duck.
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #119 on: June 28, 2007, 11:27:09 am »
Thanks. Also consider that from a purely stat-geek perspective, the "he's not clutch" tag is particularly aggravating, since a declaration of belief in clutch ability is supposedly heathenistic or heretical.

Been down that road with you before and I actually learned a lot about how I was actually misusing the word "clutch".  Or using it to mean something entirely different.  I suspect our horned friend has the same type of head spinning effect going on right now, but time will tell if he is trying to understand or deciding he is damn right, everyone else is on crack!

Quote
I'll be the first to admit that i haven't been able to watch as many games this season as last season, but i still will stick to the same opinion.

Too funny.  Those comments usually invite others to charge, like a bull to a red cape, and not so much to ignore.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 11:28:59 am by Noe in Austin »

Arky Vaughan

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #120 on: June 28, 2007, 11:27:43 am »
But they do it without regard to what has spurred them to said attitude.  You mentioned reaction and I thought that was appropriate.  I think the reaction is rightly defined by you.  I merely mentioned that it goes with the territory of being this side of the lawnmower repair bidnezz I guess.

I agree. And I don't think a virtiolic reaction is confined to any particular school of thought about baseball.

Ironically, the people to whom it matters most, the players who hear this crap hurled at them, are the ones who have to, and are probably best at, letting it roll off. If for no other reasons than why should they care what some ignoramus thinks and, also, for reasons of self-preservation. Chasing fans into the stands is no way to make a living.

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #121 on: June 28, 2007, 11:28:38 am »
Clutch hitters weigh the same as a duck.

Nicely played, MM.

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #122 on: June 28, 2007, 11:36:47 am »
I was probably blowing off steam more than anything else.  ...

This is not really a "blowing off steam" kind of place.  Your frustrations are no bigger than anyone elses.

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #123 on: June 28, 2007, 11:46:40 am »
I agree. And I don't think a virtiolic reaction is confined to any particular school of thought about baseball.

Ironically, the people to whom it matters most, the players who hear this crap hurled at them, are the ones who have to, and are probably best at, letting it roll off. If for no other reasons than why should they care what some ignoramus thinks and, also, for reasons of self-preservation. Chasing fans into the stands is no way to make a living.

Hence why the clubhouse is a safe place for them.  If a fan were to wander *in there*, they would not get away with the same screaming banshee act as in the safety of the stands.  Or if the fan set foot onto the field, he'd get the same treatment Burley Viscar got and none of it would be "rolling off" anyone's back other than the perpetrator.  Get the difference?

I can go to 100 fansites and read the "in the bleachers" sort of talk and even participate in it all I want.  But this is not that site.  Is it a players only site?  No.  Is it a clubhouse for players only type of site?  No.  But I know what it isn't and just like at Yankee stadium if you wander into the wrong part of the stands and spout off, you're not going to be... ahem... ignored.

And this is from me, who advocates the ignore feature all the time.  I do so for the harassment some pile on each other, but for ignorance... I think it is just too hard to ignore.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 11:51:28 am by Noe in Austin »

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #124 on: June 28, 2007, 12:17:26 pm »
That's a little more toned down.  I was getting a full psychological evaluation earlier

no reason to repeat it. the eval is in the AD.com file in the Outbox.

no surprise you did not like Jay Powell. that fits your profile.
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #125 on: June 28, 2007, 12:22:36 pm »
 I'll be the first to admit that i haven't been able to watch as many games this season as last season, but i still will stick to the same opinion.  

this alone has earned you all the derision you have received.

seriously, stop posting in this thread. move on.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 01:27:26 pm by JimR »
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #126 on: June 28, 2007, 01:39:15 pm »
Clutch hitters weigh the same as a duck.
Then they must be burned at the stake before they turn somebody into a newt!

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #127 on: June 28, 2007, 02:04:47 pm »
Color me shocked!

I know Jay Powell.  His own fans booing him exacerbated his problems....the guy was a solid pitcher.

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #128 on: June 28, 2007, 02:05:39 pm »
I know Jay Powell.  His own fans booing him exacerbated his problems....the guy was a solid pitcher.

Biggio and Lugo exacerbated the problem. 

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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #129 on: June 28, 2007, 02:07:42 pm »
I know Jay Powell.  His own fans booing him exacerbated his problems....the guy was a solid pitcher.

he had one fan in me. he was a very good pitcher who got very little help.
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Re: I don't see...
« Reply #130 on: June 28, 2007, 02:27:15 pm »
he had one fan in me. he was a very good pitcher who got very little help.

The one drawback Powell had to me, taking the D completely out of it, was he used to nibble, therefore he walked quite a few hitters. Nibble, nibble, nibble, walk. However, sometimes it would work and he would get a hitter to chase or get the call.
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