Its a crying shame

[Mr. Happy]

Woody pitched his ass off last night, and we couldn't manage to give him more than one run. IMO, that was his best performance of the season. If he starts giving us anything like that performance on even a semi-regular basis, he'll be earning his pay.

Woody's been in several ballgames, and in fact should be at least 4-7 instead of 2-9. And one could argue even for even as high as a 6-5 record, although I think that would be a stretch. It was a pity that Zambrano donged him, but Zambrano is a dangerous hitting pitcher. I was in attendance one night when Z took WaMi about 440 feet on an 0-2 pitch.

Bottom line: I'm laying off of Woody. Mea culpa mea culpa mea maxima culpa.

[WulawHorn]

As others, especially mark, have pointed out, Woody has given you QS over 50% of the time.  That's about all you can ask from a #5 guy.

I knew when Zambrano hit that HR that all was lost. That guy is filthy. How his era has flirted with 5 this year I have no idea.

[Limey]

I knew when Zambrano hit that HR that all was lost. That guy is filthy. How his era has flirted with 5 this year I have no idea.

He seems to have a hard-on for the Astros and saves his best stuff - both with ball and bat - for us.  Half his career shibbies are against the Astros.  In 4 starts against the Astros last year, he had an ERA of 0.58; this year so far (just last night) it's Blutarski.

[Taras Bulba]

Good ballgame and a very interesting contrast in pitchers--one a power guy at the peak of his powers against a veteran skulking through the lineup.  Even though Zambrano dominated, the Astros were in it until the last.  A couple of better at bats from Carlos and things might have been different.  Biggio's fly to the wall would have been in the bleachers on most nights.

I was entertained.

[Limey]

A couple of better at bats from Carlos and things might have been different.  Biggio's fly to the wall would have been in the bleachers on most nights.

Not piling on or anything, but if Biggio's last-gasp shot had been able to make the seats, there would've been a lot more than one run to overcome at that point.  Woody gave up a lot of cans o' corn to the deep warning track.

Also, Lee turning into Iceberg just shows how much the team relied on his bat.  With him rolling over on everything, there's no way this offense is going to score runs.  Even last night's run was a gift, because if (Derrick) Lee had come off the bag to get the errant relay, Lamb stays at 3rd and the Astros would've needed a hit (or error) to get him home.

[Alkie]

That's about all you can ask from a #5 guy.

Which would be fine, except that he's our #3.  I'm not saying anything about Woody, just pointing out he's not our #5.  Our #5, oddly, will receive many votes for ROY.

[Noe]

Which would be fine, except that he's our #3.  I'm not saying anything about Woody, just pointing out he's not our #5.  Our #5, oddly, will receive many votes for ROY.

I dunno, I think Chris Sampson is our #3 now.  Wait until they *officially* change the rotation sometime before the ASB, but it will happen.

[MusicMan]

Which would be fine, except that he's our #3. 

By $$$ only.

[Lefty]

I dunno, I think Chris Sampson is our #3 now.  Wait until they *officially* change the rotation sometime before the ASB, but it will happen.

Perzactly.  Haven't had a chance to reshuffle the rotation yet. 

[Noe]

Carlos Zambrano is an injury waiting to happen.  They way he throws his slider and cut fastball, he's going to screw up his arm soon.  He may win some battles now, but he's going to lose the war if he doesn't get some good mechanics soon.  And Lou Pinella and the Cubs are going to ride his arse for all they can get out of him this season, so don't expect them to take care of the guy either.  Buyer beware this offseason.

[Taras Bulba]

Carlos Zambrano is an injury waiting to happen.  They way he throws his slider and cut fastball, he's going to screw up his arm soon.  He may win some battles now, but he's going to lose the war if he doesn't get some good mechanics soon.  And Lou Pinella and the Cubs are going to ride his arse for all they can get out of him this season, so don't expect them to take care of the guy either.  Buyer beware this offseason.

Deshaies made a veiled reference to that last night.

[davek]

Carlos Zambrano is an injury waiting to happen.  They way he throws his slider and cut fastball, he's going to screw up his arm soon.  He may win some battles now, but he's going to lose the war if he doesn't get some good mechanics soon.  And Lou Pinella and the Cubs are going to ride his arse for all they can get out of him this season, so don't expect them to take care of the guy either.  Buyer beware this offseason.

Innuresting comments by one Fergie Jenkins eh?....

[pravata]

Innuresting comments by one Fergie Jenkins eh?....

For those that didnt hear, Jenkins said Zambrano is dropping his arm compared to what he saw in ST.  Said it was because of laziness. 

[MusicMan]

Deshaies made a veiled reference to that last night.

Was this the comment about how you can get that incredible slider bite, but only by dropping your elbow to the point where there's too much stress on it?

[Alkie]

I dunno, I think Chris Sampson is our #3 now. 

Wait, wait, wait, you didn't honestly think you had to convince ME of this, did you??

[Noe]

Innuresting comments by one Fergie Jenkins eh?....

Outstanding relay of the story by Jimmy D.  Almost had an indictment on it when Jenkins said he called Rothchild because he could not stand watching the kid throw like that any more.  The Cubs aren't going to take care of Zambrano, they're just going to let him cut loose and go... and Jenkins and others are just sitting there watching in amazement at this!  At least Jenkins decided to bust off the call to Rothchild and complain.

[Noe]

Wait, wait, wait, you didn't honestly think you had to convince ME of this, did you??

No, but it's pretty apparent who the #5 and who the #3 is on this rotation.  Right now, it's just a matter of making the rotation adjustment to go to battle from here on out for the rest of the season.  Woodrow is going to make an excellent #5, even if he is a bit more costly at that spot than using minor league fodder.  Chris Sampson can (and will?) offset the cost though if he continues to pitch like an effective #3.  All he needs to do now is stretch that arm out a little more to up his IPs (become a 7 inning pitcher instead of a 5-6 inning pitcher) and the Astros have a good rotation for the season.  Either they do that or trade for an arm this season at the deadline.

[Limey]

No, but it's pretty apparent who the #5 and who the #3 is on this rotation.  Right now, it's just a matter of making the rotation adjustment to go to battle from here on out for the rest of the season.  Woodrow is going to make an excellent #5, even if he is a bit more costly at that spot than using minor league fodder.  Chris Sampson can (and will?) offset the cost though if he continues to pitch like an effective #3.  All he needs to do now is stretch that arm out a little more to up his IPs (become a 7 inning pitcher instead of a 5-6 inning pitcher) and the Astros have a good rotation for the season.  Either they do that or trade for an arm this season at the deadline.

FWIW, unless you're a genius, the rotation doesn't really matter again until the playoffs.  Which makes the last 4 words of that sentence moot.

[Noe]

Was this the comment about how you can get that incredible slider bite, but only by dropping your elbow to the point where there's too much stress on it?

Yes.  He said it was the same thing that happend to Kerry Wood.  He told the audience that they should remember Kerry Wood's incredible game against the Houston Astros when he struck out 21 men.  And then, after a few more outstanding games that season, started to feel the pinch in the elbow and basically lost his arm for the remainder of his career.  He may never pitch again.

Wood was doing the same thing Zambrano is doing to get his slider and cutter to move so much.

[kevinG]

Zambrano needs to be monitored very closely. With his mechanics, the length he goes into games should be kept far lower than it is. As it is, he's throwing near 120 pitches/start this year. You'd think they'd have learned their lesson with Wood, who was a mechanics nightmare and threw 110 pitches/start in 2003 and 111 pitches/start in 2004 before breaking down and never being the same.

But hey, I won't condemn extremely poor management by a division rival.

[Taras Bulba]

There was a piece in the NY Times June 3rd edition (I don't have a link) written by the author of "Friday Night Lights" that discussed Wood and the ongoing debate regarding pitchers throwing too much or too little.  It seemed to me, at least, to suggest that it may just all depend upon the pitcher in question.  Wood thinks the low pitch counts mandated in his minor league career hurt his big league career.  Nolan Ryan was cited as a firm believer in letting pitchers go.  I don't know--maybe Zambrano defies the odds and throws that nasty ass slider for a long time and for a lot of innings.  But I'm inclined to agree with Noe (and the sly Deshaies) that his time may be coming.

[strosrays]

There was a piece in the NY Times June 3rd edition (I don't have a link) written by the author of "Friday Night Lights" that discussed Wood and the ongoing debate regarding pitchers throwing too much or too little.  It seemed to me, at least, to suggest that it may just all depend upon the pitcher in question.  Wood thinks the low pitch counts mandated in his minor league career hurt his big league career.  Nolan Ryan was cited as a firm believer in letting pitchers go.  I don't know--maybe Zambrano defies the odds and throws that nasty ass slider for a long time and for a lot of innings.  But I'm inclined to agree with Noe (and the sly Deshaies) that his time may be coming.

One thing Zambrano has in his favor -- it seems like most pitchers who break down due to bad mechanics do so pretty early on.  Carlos has a lot of innings under his belt already, not counting what he did in the minors (which was probably closely monitored) and in Venezuela before that (which probably wasn't.)  And no major problems to this point.  A lot of the same things being said about him have been said about Oswalt, too.  Not specifically, but there was a general feeling that Roy O. threw too hard for his size, or something.  Anyway, he worked out OK.  I'd give Zambrano a better than even chance.

I also agree the individual matters more in this than mechanics or pitch counts.  Prior was lauded for his excellent mechanics, but has had no better luck than Kerry Wood.

Mea culpa mea culpa mea maxima culpa.

Or, as St. Augustine said, 'Mea saurus, mea saurus, mea maxima saurus.'  I'm a lizard, I'm a lizard, I'm an enormous lizard,

[WulawHorn]

I don't know- if Z was going to break down I think he would have already broken down. Not that I'm an expert or anything.

I'm betting on Mets- 6 years north of 100 million.

If I'm the Cubs and not going to resign him I might as well pitch him till his arm falls off.

[Astroholic]

There was a piece in the NY Times June 3rd edition (I don't have a link) written by the author of "Friday Night Lights" that discussed Wood and the ongoing debate regarding pitchers throwing too much or too little.  It seemed to me, at least, to suggest that it may just all depend upon the pitcher in question.  Wood thinks the low pitch counts mandated in his minor league career hurt his big league career.  Nolan Ryan was cited as a firm believer in letting pitchers go.  I don't know--maybe Zambrano defies the odds and throws that nasty ass slider for a long time and for a lot of innings.  But I'm inclined to agree with Noe (and the sly Deshaies) that his time may be coming.

http://www.orangewhoopass.com/forums/index.php?topic=102366.0

[Mr. Happy]

http://www.orangewhoopass.com/forums/index.php?topic=102366.0

Leo Mazzone is a big believer in throwing the ball as well. He did a pretty good job with some guys who have maintained some longevity. Out of all the books that I have on pitching (about 20), Mazzone's book, a short tome, is my favorite.