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General Discussion => Beer and Queso => Topic started by: Nate Colbert on September 24, 2016, 03:35:35 pm

Title: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Nate Colbert on September 24, 2016, 03:35:35 pm
Excellent piece in the New Yorker (http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/my-nineteenth-presidential-election-and-the-most-important) by the 96-year old baseball writer.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on September 24, 2016, 05:26:37 pm
Also in the New Yorker:

Quote
Trump encountered a U.S. nuclear-arms negotiator at a reception in 1990 and offered advice on how to cut a “terrific” deal with a Soviet counterpart. Trump told him to arrive late, stand over the Soviet negotiator, stick his finger in his chest, and say, “Fuck you!”
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Phil_in_CS on September 25, 2016, 04:51:40 pm
I still think Trump will win, god help us all.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on September 27, 2016, 10:50:47 am
I still think Trump will win, god help us all.

How about now?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on September 27, 2016, 11:16:59 am
How about now?

I doubt that debate changed anyone's mind.  Trump supporters are thumping their chests this morning about how he knocked that debate out of the park and how he proved he's exactly the kind of no-planning, ready-fire-aim, political novice we need running the country. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on September 27, 2016, 12:21:10 pm
I doubt that debate changed anyone's mind.  Trump supporters are thumping their chests this morning about how he knocked that debate out of the park and how he proved he's exactly the kind of no-planning, ready-fire-aim, political novice we need running the country.

It was never about existing Trump supporters, it was about those who are (amazingly) still undecided.  A CNN poll of likely voters had Clinton "winning" 62% to 27% and another poll of Florida "undecideds" had Clinton over Trump 90/10 (albeit a small sample of 20 people).

Trump had an incredibly low bar for success last night, and he came up short.  If all that happened is that independent and some reluctant Trump voters got turned off him, then job done Clinton.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on September 27, 2016, 12:23:30 pm
It was never about existing Trump supporters, it was about those who are (amazingly) still undecided.  A CNN poll of likely voters had Clinton "winning" 62% to 27% and another poll of Florida "undecideds" had Clinton over Trump 90/10 (albeit a small sample of 20 people).

Trump had an incredibly low bar for success last night, and he came up short.  If all that happened is that independent and some reluctant Trump voters got turned off him, then job done Clinton.

I guess I just refuse to believe there is a significant number of "undecided" in this one. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on September 27, 2016, 01:07:11 pm
I guess I just refuse to believe there is a significant number of "undecided" in this one.

North Carolina: group of undecided voters "gasped" when Trump said not paying taxes made him "smart".

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/a-lean-toward-clinton-among-one-group-of-undecided-north-carolina-voters/2016/09/27/ff271b2e-8469-11e6-92c2-14b64f3d453f_story.html?postshare=7421474992141601&tid=ss_tw


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on September 27, 2016, 01:19:08 pm
North Carolina: group of undecided voters "gasped" when Trump said not paying taxes made him "smart".

The told-to-be-quiet audience laughed when he claimed his temperament was his best trait.

He is a zombie-candidate.  Dead, but won't die.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: juliogotay on September 27, 2016, 02:20:39 pm
I guess I just refuse to believe there is a significant number of "undecided" in this one.

Hard to imagine.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MRaup on September 27, 2016, 04:09:33 pm
I think there a lot of people on the "Well, I don't really like a lot of things about Hillary, but Jesus Christ, that other guy is a gasoline drenched trainwreck" bandwagon.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on September 27, 2016, 04:11:25 pm
I think there a lot of people on the "Well, I don't really like a lot of things about Hillary, but Jesus Christ, that other guy is a gasoline drenched trainwreck" bandwagon.

Don't underestimate how many people think she is a vile, contemptible, corrupt human being and politician.  And they won't vote for a politician.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MRaup on September 27, 2016, 04:12:10 pm
Don't underestimate how many people think she is a vile, contemptible, corrupt human being and politician.  And they won't vote for a politician.

Believe me, I wasn't. Trump is just that horrible of a choice.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on September 27, 2016, 05:26:54 pm
Don't underestimate how many people think she is a vile, contemptible, corrupt human being and politician.  And they won't vote for a politician.

This gets repeated so often that no one ever feels like they have to justify it. Has there ever been a more effective job of character assassination than's been pulled on Hillary?

 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on September 27, 2016, 07:18:51 pm
This gets repeated so often that no one ever feels like they have to justify it. Has there ever been a more effective job of character assassination than's been pulled on Hillary?

She is a turd sandwich. He is a giant douche. Once again, South Park nails it.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on September 27, 2016, 08:00:38 pm
This gets repeated so often that no one ever feels like they have to justify it. Has there ever been a more effective job of character assassination than's been pulled on Hillary?

It doesn't take much to find out how horrible she is.  But my point was people will vote against her because she's part of the establishment, i.e. a politician.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on September 27, 2016, 08:10:04 pm
It doesn't take much to find out how horrible she is.  But my point was people will vote against her because she's part of the establishment, i.e. a politician.

These are common people, salt of the earth. You know... morons.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: moriartp on September 28, 2016, 05:40:11 am
It doesn't take much to find out how horrible she is.  But my point was people will vote against her because she's part of the establishment, i.e. a politician.
Voters of both parties re-nominated almost every congressional incumbent in the primaries. One of the few reps to lose was Tim Huelskamp, an anti-establishment Republican who got ousted by a more mainstream challenger. Obama's approval rating is sitting in the low fifties; he'd waltz to a third term if such a thing were still permitted. There's a lot of talk about "backlash," but there's precious little evidence that it actually exists. There are much better explanations for people's distaste for Clinton.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on September 28, 2016, 10:07:19 am
It doesn't take much to find out how horrible she is.  But my point was people will vote against her because she's part of the establishment, i.e. a politician.

Anyone running for political office is by definition a politician, engaged in the practice of politics. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on September 28, 2016, 10:08:13 am
These are common people, salt of the earth. You know... morons.


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That clip has been running on an auto-loop in my head for the last year. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Phil_in_CS on September 28, 2016, 01:41:05 pm
How about now?

I still think so.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/2016_elections_electoral_college_map.html
She's been dropping like a stone in the Electoral Vote map, down 10 just from Friday. This is all pre-debate stuff, but I don't think Trump has any downside in the debates. Those that support him won't care if he fucks up. The only ones watching that haven't decided are trying to see if Clinton will fuck up.

I'm also curious how accurate polling is any more. I won't answer a call if the caller ID isn't in my contact list; my voice mail says to leave a message. I will call them back if it's a legit caller I didn't have in my contact list yet. I know that's got to be very common these days, so the people the pollsters talk to are a small segment of the population. Are they actually representative of the rest of us? That's difficult to know.

Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Mr. Happy on September 29, 2016, 10:26:41 am
From what I've read about Secretary Clinton from Secret Service agents who worked for her when President Clinton was in office, the term "high maintenance" would be an understatement. She's going to win, so I don't understand what all the hubbub is about.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on September 29, 2016, 10:36:33 am
From what I've read about Secretary Clinton from Secret Service agents who worked for her when President Clinton was in office, the term "high maintenance" would be an understatement. She's going to win, so I don't understand what all the hubbub is about.

Because these 2 candidates bring more entertainment than we may ever see again.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on September 29, 2016, 11:00:04 am
Because these 2 candidates bring more entertainment than we may ever see again.

In the same way that the lions vs the Christians was "entertainment".


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on September 29, 2016, 11:42:40 am
In the same way that the lions vs the Christians was "entertainment".


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Um, no.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on September 29, 2016, 03:53:21 pm
In the same way that the lions vs the Christians was "entertainment".


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No, more of a Theater of the Absurd kind of way. It's low brow performance art.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on September 29, 2016, 03:59:40 pm
No, more of a Theater of the Absurd kind of way. It's low brow performance art.

Professional rasslin'.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on September 29, 2016, 04:48:55 pm
Professional rasslin'.

I'm actually a fan of rasslin', for a variety of reasons. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: GreatBagwellsBeard on September 30, 2016, 08:32:41 am
I'm actually a fan of rasslin', for a variety of reasons.

Another closet NXT fan, huh?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on September 30, 2016, 09:33:13 am
So, just this week, Trump put on a derisory debate performance (worthy of a long list of gaffes and missteps of its own), doubled down on his defense of fat-shaming a pageant winner, tripled down on that at 5am this morning with a trademarked Twitter rant (alleging a non-existent sex tape) - seriously, that's what was on his mind at 5am? - has been outed for his company violating the Cuban embargo and has had the Trump Foundation outed for operating without the necessary licenses for a charitable organization (because it works with money raised from people who are not Trump).  And it's still early on Friday.

SMFH
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on September 30, 2016, 09:53:57 am
You don't understand, none of that matters. He said he is "going to lower taxes, big league. She is going to raise taxes, big league. End of story."
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on September 30, 2016, 09:55:37 am
You don't understand, none of that matters. He said he is "going to lower taxes, big league. She is going to raise taxes, big league. End of story."

Point of order, the word he uses is "bigly" not "big league." 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on September 30, 2016, 10:05:19 am
So, just this week, Trump put on a derisory debate performance (worthy of a long list of gaffes and missteps of its own), doubled down on his defense of fat-shaming a pageant winner, tripled down on that at 5am this morning with a trademarked Twitter rant (alleging a non-existent sex tape) - seriously, that's what was on his mind at 5am? - has been outed for his company violating the Cuban embargo and has had the Trump Foundation outed for operating without the necessary licenses for a charitable organization (because it works with money raised from people who are not Trump).  And it's still early on Friday.

SMFH

All of the polling post debate that I've seen has her with a small lead now.  Shocking to me coming out of the debate.  She should be in double digits.  The level of hate for her is strong in this country.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on September 30, 2016, 10:11:09 am
Point of order, the word he uses is "bigly" not "big league."

At the risk of breaking an impressive streak and actually defending Trump; he does say "big league".   It's just that his speech patterns are odd, to say the least, such that it sounds like "bigly".
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on September 30, 2016, 10:17:35 am
I suspect he's already reached his high water mark.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on September 30, 2016, 10:29:18 am
All of the polling post debate that I've seen has her with a small lead now.  Shocking to me coming out of the debate.  She should be in double digits.  The level of hate for her is strong in this country.

I want to believe that there's a time-lag involved in the polls moving.  There's been such an avalanche of shit* coming his way since the debate that it's hard to take it all in.

* How, with all his shady business practices and personal baggage, he thought he could pass running-for-president level scrutiny is beyond me.  Speaks to the arrogance of the man, and/or poor/sycophantic counsel.

Also, the polling samples may be broadly representative, but that doesn't tell the whole story.  This week has pushed him further the wrong way with women and Latinos but, for example, any Republican who wants to win Florida is going to have to win the Cuban vote in Miami-Dade Co.  Polling from July showed him winning that group by only 4 points (37/33), and his company's apparent violation of the embargo is going to be as popular with them as a fart in a spacesuit.

Similarly, his inaccurate slamming of Ford in the debate for moving jobs to Mexico - live fact-checked by Ford's CEO - might not play well in the swing states of Michigan and Ohio.  Showing him to be out of touch with what's actually going on where those voters live.

We don't vote nationally for President (why, I don't know), so national polls are poor indicators.  You have to look at the internals to get a proper picture.  Like the PPP poll this week that ask "Who do you think pays more in taxes, you or Donald Trump?"; Trump lost that by 10 points (46/36) - so nearly half the sample think they pay more in taxes than he does.  Ouch!
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on September 30, 2016, 10:41:30 am
All of the polling post debate that I've seen has her with a small lead now.  Shocking to me coming out of the debate.  She should be in double digits.  The level of hate for her is strong in this country.

Even A Small Post-Debate Bounce Could Make A Big Difference For Clinton (http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/election-update-even-a-small-post-debate-bounce-could-make-a-big-difference-for-clinton/)

To generalize this a bit further, with a 3-to-5-point lead nationally for Clinton, we’d expect to see the following in the swing states:

A 4-to-8-point lead in Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, Colorado, Virginia, Wisconsin and Michigan, which have been slightly bluer than the national average this cycle.

Somewhere between a tie and a 4-point Clinton lead in Florida and North Carolina, which have been slightly redder than the national average.

A roughly tied race in Ohio and Iowa, which have been significantly redder than the national average.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on September 30, 2016, 10:45:43 am
The only poll I pay attention to is the Five Thirty Eight poll and right now it has her at 66 to 33. She is in fact pulling away, at least for the moment.

By the way, I don't think Trump's support always and necessarily equates to a hatred of Hillary. Obviously forty something percent of voters will vote for the Republican regardless of who he or she is. Some similar percentage of voters will support the Democrat. I don't think the polarization has anything to do in particular with either candidate.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on September 30, 2016, 10:54:18 am
The only poll I pay attention to is the Five Thirty Eight poll and right now it has her at 66 to 33. She is in fact pulling away, at least for the moment.

By the way, I don't think Trump's support always and necessarily equates to a hatred of Hillary. Obviously forty something percent of voters will vote for the Republican regardless of who he or she is. Some similar percentage of voters will support the Democrat. I don't think the polarization has anything to do in particular with either candidate.

One of the underrated features of this election is the unprecedented amount of bipartisanship.  Both George HW Bush and Bernie Sanders are on the same side.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on September 30, 2016, 11:01:04 am
At the risk of breaking an impressive streak and actually defending Trump; he does say "big league".   It's just that his speech patterns are odd, to say the least, such that it sounds like "bigly".

Wow.  That's even more nonsensical than bigly.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on September 30, 2016, 11:21:18 am
Wow.  That's even more nonsensical than bigly.

Correct.  See also "second amendment people" and "very against police judge".
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on September 30, 2016, 11:54:13 am
"I have a son. He's 10 years old. He has computers. He is so good with these computers, it's unbelievable. The security aspect of cyber is very, very tough. And maybe it's hardly doable. But I will say, we are not doing the job we should be doing. But that's true throughout our whole governmental society. We have so many things that we have to do better, Lester, and certainly cyber is one of them."
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on September 30, 2016, 01:12:16 pm
"I have a son. He's 10 years old. He has computers. He is so good with these computers, it's unbelievable. The security aspect of cyber is very, very tough. And maybe it's hardly doable. But I will say, we are not doing the job we should be doing. But that's true throughout our whole governmental society. We have so many things that we have to do better, Lester, and certainly cyber is one of them."

Now who can argue with that.  I think we all owe a debt of gratitude to Donald Trump Johnson for clearly stating what needed to be said.  Not only was it authentic frontier gibberish, it exhibited a courage seldom seen in this day and age. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Phil_in_CS on September 30, 2016, 04:02:42 pm
The only poll I pay attention to is the Five Thirty Eight poll and right now it has her at 66 to 33. She is in fact pulling away, at least for the moment.

By the way, I don't think Trump's support always and necessarily equates to a hatred of Hillary. Obviously forty something percent of voters will vote for the Republican regardless of who he or she is. Some similar percentage of voters will support the Democrat. I don't think the polarization has anything to do in particular with either candidate.

There's a gulf between "Trump supporters" and "Trump voters", just like there is between "Clinton supporters" and "Clinton voters." This election has a large amount of "My guy/gal sucks, but yours sucks worse" to it.  There won't be a whole lot of people happy with who they vote for on election day.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on September 30, 2016, 04:08:55 pm
There's a gulf between "Trump supporters" and "Trump voters", just like there is between "Clinton supporters" and "Clinton voters." This election has a large amount of "My guy/gal sucks, but yours sucks worse" to it.  There won't be a whole lot of people happy with who they vote for on election day.

I'll be curious to see the numbers after the election of the college Bernie supporters voting.  Right now I'm hearing utter apathy and disregard for the election.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on September 30, 2016, 04:34:49 pm
There's a gulf between "Trump supporters" and "Trump voters", just like there is between "Clinton supporters" and "Clinton voters." This election has a large amount of "My guy/gal sucks, but yours sucks worse" to it.  There won't be a whole lot of people happy with who they vote for on election day.

That's been the case for a very long time, the gulf between voters and supporters. You'd have to go back to maybe Bill Clinton's first election to find voters and supporters in more or less equal measure. I guess Obama's first election, too. There was a different feel eight years ago, certainly. But I've been hearing the lesser of two evils talk for almost fifty years. You might argue that it's more pronounced this time around and you might be right, but I don't necessarily think so. I know lots of conservatives were unhappy with Romney and I know lots of progressives were unhappy with Obama four years ago.

I suppose my point, in so far as I have one, is that this is a fairly normal election in most respects other than one candidate has been under public scrutiny for almost thirty years and the other candidate attracts media attention like a giant turd attracts horse flies.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Phil_in_CS on October 01, 2016, 10:01:30 am
I'll be curious to see the numbers after the election of the college Bernie supporters voting.  Right now I'm hearing utter apathy and disregard for the election.

A giant part of life is simply showing up and doing your work. Sanders and Trump both engaged a lot of people who are eligible to vote, but don't normally vote.  You recall both did much better in open primary states than in closed (only people previously declared to the party) or caucus states. Turnout is always a key factor, but more so this year.

A quick google shows % of eligible voters that voted for president was 49% in 1996, 50.3% in 2000, 55.7% in 2004, 57.1% in 2008 and 54.9% in 2012.  When you consider how slim the margins are, anyone that can tap into that 40-45% of people that don't normally vote would have a huge advantage. However, if they have a history of not voting, they won't be as likely this time either. Even getting one in ten of those to show up and vote for you would be 4-5% more on election day, and that's enough to push over almost all swing states.

The 538 site gives Trump a 91% chance of winning Texas, so what any of us decide is moot. There are far more elections pending than just president, of course. I've voted libertarian for president since 1988, but Johnson's a bigger idiot than the idiots they usually run so I'm planning to vote for a buddy in NC that joked he was running for president. I told him I trust him enough that if he fucked me he'd at least give me flowers, and that's not true of the major candidates.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on October 01, 2016, 10:18:04 am
Johnson seems like a good, honest guy, but...

I read weeks ago where he took time away from weed, so as to be at the "top of his game."  Then came his latest gaffes, making me wonder what his normal game is.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on October 01, 2016, 10:29:19 am
A giant part of life is simply showing up and doing your work. Sanders and Trump both engaged a lot of people who are eligible to vote, but don't normally vote.  You recall both did much better in open primary states that in closed (only people previously declared to the party) or caucus states. Turnout is always a key factor, but more so this year.

A quick google shows % of eligible voters that voted for president was 49% in 1996, 50.3% in 2000, 55.7% in 2004, 57.1% in 2008 and 54.9% in 2012.  When you consider how slim the margins are, anyone that can tap into that 40-45% of people that don't normally vote would have a huge advantage. However, if they have a history of not voting, they won't be as likely this time either. Even getting one in ten of those to show up and vote for you would be 4-5% more on election day, and that's enough to push over almost all swing states.

The 538 site gives Trump a 91% chance of winning Texas, so what any of us decide is moot. There are far more elections pending than just president, of course. I've voted libertarian for president since 1988, but Johnson's a bigger idiot than the idiots they usually run so I'm planning to vote for a buddy in NC that joked he was running for president. I told him I trust him enough that if he fucked me he'd at least give me flowers, and that's not true of the major candidates.

The DNC has pushed a lot of college students to third party candidates or not voting at all.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on October 03, 2016, 10:43:19 am
The candidate whose credentials are based almost entirely on his business acumen, lost $1bn in a single year during one of the largest sustained economic booms this country has seen...on casinos.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on October 03, 2016, 11:03:04 am
The candidate whose credentials are based almost entirely on his business acumen, lost $1bn in a single year during one of the largest sustained economic booms this country has seen...on casinos.

Do you have a point?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on October 03, 2016, 11:15:12 am
Do you have a point?

Nah.  Just joining in the 2016 trend of free range word salad.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on October 03, 2016, 11:46:26 am
Nah.  Just joining in the 2016 trend of free range word salad.

How about some Benghazi dressing topped with a handful of Parkinson's croutons?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on October 03, 2016, 03:14:31 pm
How about some Benghazi dressing topped with a handful of Parkinson's croutons?

Sure.  And a nice, clear glass of white water, or maybe soda water as it's better at getting stains out of dresses. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Mr. Happy on October 03, 2016, 04:11:44 pm
Sure.  And a nice, clear glass of white water, or maybe soda water as it's better at getting stains out of dresses.

I like what you did there!!!
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on October 03, 2016, 04:33:44 pm
I like what you did there!!!

That's not what she said.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Nate Colbert on October 10, 2016, 11:45:21 pm
Collin McHugh responds (https://www.instagram.com/p/BLZYm_1Bou2/) to Trump's characterization of his sexual braggadocio admitting to sexual assault as "locker room talk".
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on October 11, 2016, 08:03:38 pm
FWI, don't Google do a generic web search for, "hand on the pussy in locker room." Fair warning.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Phil_in_CS on October 11, 2016, 08:14:58 pm
FWI, don't Google do a generic web search for, "hand on the pussy in locker room." Fair warning.

I've been on the interwebs long enough to know when someone says "don't search on this" I take them at their word. Some things can not be unseen.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on October 12, 2016, 09:13:27 am
FWI, don't Google do a generic web search for, "hand on the pussy in locker room." Fair warning.

I am still trying to recover from a Google search on a tropical storm when I typed in "TS Maria".
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on October 13, 2016, 10:32:45 am
This (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/14/us/politics/trump-election-rigging.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news) is so depressing.

Against my better judgment I enlisted in a forum the other day about the election instigated by an email from Kiplingers--that's half a day's work down the drain. The level of self-delusion among the Trumpistas is staggering, and the unanimous contempt in which they hold the "liberal media" gives them carte blanche to assemble their own reality wholesale.

What is this country going to look like on November 9th?

Say the G.O.P. manages to hang on to the House: their ranks will likely be thinned only of the quote-unquote moderates, making for an even more unruly, combative majority. Does Ryan maintain his Speakership? Do they condemn President Clinton as illegitimate? Are they chastened at all?

If he does keep his job, the only laws passed in Clinton's first term will be (as has been the case for the past six years) done with the help of the democratic minority over the objections of his caucus. Which...that situation can't last. How long until they're in open revolt against him? How long until a Blake Farenthold ("Sometimes I don't agree with everything I say!") is speaker, calling for impeachment?

Interesting discussion on fivethirtyeight (http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-this-what-it-looks-like-when-a-party-falls-apart/) about how the white nationalist segment of the G.O.P. is now their primary constituency: cultural conservatives rather than social or fiscal conservatives. After the election, could we see this arrangement formally recognized in the formation of a new party?

Finally--as I try to stifle terrified laughter--what are the odds Trump goes gracefully? (here (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/10/donald-trump-2016-biographers-214350) is a disturbing and fascinating conversation with several of his biographers about that topic, and others. ["He doesn't think," says one.]) And what does it mean for us if he doesn't?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on October 13, 2016, 11:28:34 am
Finally--as I try to stifle terrified laughter--what are the odds Trump goes gracefully? (here (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/10/donald-trump-2016-biographers-214350) is a disturbing and fascinating conversation with several of his biographers about that topic, and others. ["He doesn't think," says one.]) And what does it mean for us if he doesn't?

It means he'll continue to stir up the tinfoil hat wearing, John Birchers out there.  And they'll wail.  And talk show radio hosts will get rich egging them on.  The rest of us will continue on with our lives. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on October 13, 2016, 01:37:42 pm
It means he'll continue to stir up the tinfoil hat wearing, John Birchers out there.  And they'll wail.  And talk show radio hosts will get rich egging them on.  The rest of us will continue on with our lives.

Right now Trump is aiming his message directly towards his most fervent tin foil hat wearing John Bircher and I'll add alt-white supporters.  And if he can just get 5 million of them to subscribe to the Trump News Network (the conservative alternative!) streaming service for $7.99 a month he'll do a hell of a lot better than he has in any of his real estate deals. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on October 13, 2016, 02:01:51 pm
Right now Trump is aiming his message directly towards his most fervent tin foil hat wearing John Bircher and I'll add alt-white supporters.  And if he can just get 5 million of them to subscribe to the Trump News Network (the conservative alternative!) streaming service for $7.99 a month he'll do a hell of a lot better than he has in any of his real estate deals.

I've often wondered if this whole run for President shtick was nothing but an excuse to start his own TV network, but he then won the nomination and went "oh shit, what do I do now?"
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on October 13, 2016, 02:14:28 pm
I don't know if Trump can charge Netflix prices when Alex Jones' youtube channel is free.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on October 13, 2016, 02:48:39 pm
I've often wondered if this whole run for President shtick was nothing but an excuse to start his own TV network, but he then won the nomination and went "oh shit, what do I do now?"

Y'all are ascribing chess moves to a guy who would be utterly flummoxed by the strategy of Candy Land.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on October 13, 2016, 03:31:54 pm
Y'all are ascribing chess moves to a guy who would be utterly flummoxed by the strategy of Candy Land.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't think "Enter race; raise profile; profit" are any more chess moves than "collect underpants; _____; profit."
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on October 14, 2016, 09:27:14 am
Interesting discussion on fivethirtyeight (http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-this-what-it-looks-like-when-a-party-falls-apart/) about how the white nationalist segment of the G.O.P. is now their primary constituency: cultural conservatives rather than social or fiscal conservatives. After the election, could we see this arrangement formally recognized in the formation of a new party?

Steve Schmidt (Woody Harrelson in the Palin movie) has opined that the Republican Party will split into a center-right party and an alt-right party.  The latter being monetized by Breitbart / Ailes and being a disruptive voting bloc along the lines of the UKIP.  Oh goody.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on October 14, 2016, 09:37:02 am
I've often wondered if this whole run for President shtick was nothing but an excuse to start his own TV network, but he then won the nomination and went "oh shit, what do I do now?"

Trump's business for over a decade now has not been real estate, it's been promoting and living off the Trump brand.  He hasn't built shit since about 2008; instead he has been licensing his name to be splashed across other people's developments in giant, gaudy lettering.  That, and his TV show.  That's it.

Well the TV show is gone, pretty much before he got to the caveat "...and some, I assume, are good people."  Now this dumpster fire of a campaign has destroyed his brand name.  For example, the new, lavish hotel in DC that bears his name was half-empty during the IMF summit, while every other hotel was sold out; why?  Because delegates could not countenance staying in a Trump-branded hotel.

His business, and maybe his personal life, may never recover from this.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on October 14, 2016, 10:28:34 am
His business, and maybe his personal life, may never recover from this.

Every business he's tried to run he's run into the ground. He's famous for inheriting money.  He's the skanky version of Paris Hilton. He needs headlines. This has given it to him.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on October 14, 2016, 03:05:33 pm
Just in case you didn't think this God forsaken election couldn't get worse, Trump supporters are now yelling "lock her up" when he mentions the women he assaulted.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Nate in IA on October 15, 2016, 12:47:50 pm
Just in case you didn't think this God forsaken election couldn't get worse, Trump supporters are now yelling "lock her up" when he mentions the women he assaulted.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, they were yelling "lock her up" when Trump exposed the crimes of Hillary Clinton.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on October 15, 2016, 01:15:18 pm
No, they were yelling "lock her up" when Trump exposed the crimes of Hillary Clinton.

You mean the non existent crimes that everyone has painstakingly looked for but have never been able to find?  The non existent crimes for which Trump promises to use political power to imprison her anyway?  The non existent crimes for which Trump has called for her assassination should she win?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on October 15, 2016, 01:18:52 pm
No, they were yelling "lock her up" when Trump exposed the crimes of Hillary Clinton.

No, I'm clear on which is which.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Nate in IA on October 15, 2016, 01:39:45 pm
No, I'm clear on which is which.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well, you're going to have to give a reference to where you heard what you think you heard.. my reference is here:
https://youtu.be/mFMUZ7xvQfc
 (https://youtu.be/mFMUZ7xvQfc)
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Lefty on October 15, 2016, 10:55:26 pm
I don't think "Enter race; raise profile; profit" are any more chess moves than "collect underpants; _____; profit."
http://static6.businessinsider.com/image/5457c9ae6bb3f7d33da1a6bb-1200-800/cartman.png
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on October 16, 2016, 08:38:13 pm
Well, you're going to have to give a reference to where you heard what you think you heard.. my reference is here:
https://youtu.be/mFMUZ7xvQfc
 (https://youtu.be/mFMUZ7xvQfc)
You have to provide a time stamp. 49 minutes (or seconds) of that piece of crap is far too much.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Nate in IA on October 16, 2016, 10:08:30 pm
You have to provide a time stamp. 49 minutes (or seconds) of that piece of crap is far too much.

No can do
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on October 17, 2016, 09:41:17 am
No, they were yelling "lock her up" when Trump exposed the crimes of Hillary Clinton.

You should it write it "crimes" since you are clearly not talking about any relevant or applicable criminal statutes. 

And what the fuck has Trump "exposed" (referring to any actions taken by Clinton, not as in "We wait, miserably, for the dong shot." (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/the-fury-and-failure-of-donald-trump-w444943))

Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on October 17, 2016, 09:43:01 am
Well, you're going to have to give a reference to where you heard what you think you heard.. my reference is here:
https://youtu.be/mFMUZ7xvQfc
 (https://youtu.be/mFMUZ7xvQfc)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/15/donald-trump-and-his-supporters-turn-on-sexual-harassment-accuse/

Mr Trump continued his belligerence in the face of the accusations and his supporters followed his cue, chanting “lock her up” at a rally in North Carolina as the Republican nominee disparaged Natasha Stoynoff, a former People Magazine reporter who claims he pushed her up against a wall and forcibly kissed her in 2005.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MRaup on October 17, 2016, 12:31:01 pm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/15/donald-trump-and-his-supporters-turn-on-sexual-harassment-accuse/

Mr Trump continued his belligerence in the face of the accusations and his supporters followed his cue, chanting “lock her up” at a rally in North Carolina as the Republican nominee disparaged Natasha Stoynoff, a former People Magazine reporter who claims he pushed her up against a wall and forcibly kissed her in 2005.

Cue Trump -

"I never said that."
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on October 17, 2016, 12:38:43 pm
And what the fuck has Trump "exposed" (referring to any actions taken by Clinton, not as in "We wait, miserably, for the dong shot." (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/the-fury-and-failure-of-donald-trump-w444943))

This is how out of touch I am - I read the guy complaining about small ball Ryan and I immediately assumed it was some sort of baseball metaphor.

Plus my new favorite thing: They're lying. AND they're ugly.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on October 17, 2016, 12:49:36 pm
You should it write it "crimes" since you are clearly not talking about any relevant or applicable criminal statutes. 

And what the fuck has Trump "exposed" (referring to any actions taken by Clinton, not as in "We wait, miserably, for the dong shot." (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/the-fury-and-failure-of-donald-trump-w444943))

And on cue the recent re-release of the supposed 2008 Obama dong shot: http://www.snopes.com/presidential-erection/
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on October 17, 2016, 01:17:10 pm
Cue Trump -

"I never said that."

At some point in the not too distant future Trump is going to look a reporter squarely in the eye and say, "I never ran for president."
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on October 17, 2016, 01:46:12 pm
At some point in the not too distant future Trump is going to look a reporter squarely in the eye and say, "I never ran for president."

And in certain respects it will be one of the truer things he'll say.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MRaup on October 18, 2016, 09:14:13 am
And in certain respects it will be one of the truer things he'll say.

He lobbed that one right down the pipe for you, Chuckster.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on October 18, 2016, 09:22:12 am
And what the fuck has Trump "exposed" (referring to any actions taken by Clinton, not as in "We wait, miserably, for the dong shot." (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/the-fury-and-failure-of-donald-trump-w444943))

The full quote was:
Quote
There are not many places left for this thing to go that don't involve kids or cannibalism. We wait, miserably, for the dong shot.

Taibbi is clearly suffering from campaign PTSD if he's forgotten that Trump is due in court in mid-December to answer an accusation of child molestation.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on October 18, 2016, 12:33:18 pm
He lobbed that one right down the pipe for you, Chuckster.

Bigly.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on October 18, 2016, 01:20:26 pm
Bigly.

You really grabbed it by the pussy.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on October 25, 2016, 09:33:41 am
Texas early voting numbers up bigly (https://twitter.com/PatrickSvitek/status/790772883450568704/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw).

With Texas polling within the margin of error, and a high turnout typically favoring Democrats, things could get very interesting come election day.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Navin R Johnson on November 09, 2016, 03:31:00 am
Hi
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: BudGirl on November 09, 2016, 09:53:31 am
The power of Scott Baio.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on November 09, 2016, 09:56:24 am
The power of Scott Baio.

Now that he's done helping Trump maybe he can get back to helping the Astros.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on November 09, 2016, 10:37:54 am
Judging from the reports this morning, sounds as if all the inflammatory rhetoric was just a means to Donald's end.  He doesn't really plan to build a wall, deport Mexicans or ban Muslims, but instead is mainly interested in the old time republican values of cutting taxes for the wealthy and removing pesky regulations impeding corporate interests.  There might be some rubes who eventually realize they were conned by one of the best and ask "Hey, why is that dark guy still here and why am I still without a high paying job," but they will be brushed aside til next election cycle.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: BudGirl on November 09, 2016, 10:39:25 am
Sometimes you get what you ask.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on November 09, 2016, 10:54:37 am
Canadian citizenship Web site amazingly slow right now.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: JimR on November 09, 2016, 11:04:14 am
Judging from the reports this morning, sounds as if all the inflammatory rhetoric was just a means to Donald's end.  He doesn't really plan to build a wall, deport Mexicans or ban Muslims, but instead is mainly interested in the old time republican values of cutting taxes for the wealthy and removing pesky regulations impeding corporate interests.  There might be some rubes who eventually realize they were conned by one of the best and ask "Hey, why is that dark guy still here and why am I still without a high paying job," but they will be brushed aside til next election cycle.

none of this surprises me at all. I still am in shock, however.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on November 09, 2016, 11:40:42 am
He doesn't really plan to build a wall, deport Mexicans or ban Muslims, but instead is mainly interested in the old time republican values of cutting taxes for the wealthy and removing pesky regulations impeding corporate interests. 

And yet from everything I've heard the overwhelming reasons for voting for him were: "Never Hillary" and "I hate politicians/I want someone who's completely different".
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: homer on November 09, 2016, 01:06:22 pm
My favorites from this thread:

Has there ever been a more effective job of character assassination than's been pulled on Hillary?

This (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/14/us/politics/trump-election-rigging.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news) is so depressing.

Against my better judgment I enlisted in a forum the other day about the election instigated by an email from Kiplingers--that's half a day's work down the drain. The level of self-delusion among the Trumpistas is staggering, and the unanimous contempt in which they hold the "liberal media" gives them carte blanche to assemble their own reality wholesale.

What is this country going to look like on November 9th?

Say the G.O.P. manages to hang on to the House: their ranks will likely be thinned only of the quote-unquote moderates, making for an even more unruly, combative majority. Does Ryan maintain his Speakership? Do they condemn President Clinton as illegitimate? Are they chastened at all?

If he does keep his job, the only laws passed in Clinton's first term will be (as has been the case for the past six years) done with the help of the democratic minority over the objections of his caucus. Which...that situation can't last. How long until they're in open revolt against him? How long until a Blake Farenthold ("Sometimes I don't agree with everything I say!") is speaker, calling for impeachment?

Interesting discussion on fivethirtyeight (http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-this-what-it-looks-like-when-a-party-falls-apart/) about how the white nationalist segment of the G.O.P. is now their primary constituency: cultural conservatives rather than social or fiscal conservatives. After the election, could we see this arrangement formally recognized in the formation of a new party?

Finally--as I try to stifle terrified laughter--what are the odds Trump goes gracefully? (here (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/10/donald-trump-2016-biographers-214350) is a disturbing and fascinating conversation with several of his biographers about that topic, and others. ["He doesn't think," says one.]) And what does it mean for us if he doesn't?

It means he'll continue to stir up the tinfoil hat wearing, John Birchers out there.  And they'll wail.  And talk show radio hosts will get rich egging them on.  The rest of us will continue on with our lives. 

I've often wondered if this whole run for President shtick was nothing but an excuse to start his own TV network, but he then won the nomination and went "oh shit, what do I do now?"

Trump's business for over a decade now has not been real estate, it's been promoting and living off the Trump brand.  He hasn't built shit since about 2008; instead he has been licensing his name to be splashed across other people's developments in giant, gaudy lettering.  That, and his TV show.  That's it.

Well the TV show is gone, pretty much before he got to the caveat "...and some, I assume, are good people."  Now this dumpster fire of a campaign has destroyed his brand name.  For example, the new, lavish hotel in DC that bears his name was half-empty during the IMF summit, while every other hotel was sold out; why?  Because delegates could not countenance staying in a Trump-branded hotel.

His business, and maybe his personal life, may never recover from this.

At some point in the not too distant future Trump is going to look a reporter squarely in the eye and say, "I never ran for president."

Texas early voting numbers up bigly (https://twitter.com/PatrickSvitek/status/790772883450568704/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw).

With Texas polling within the margin of error, and a high turnout typically favoring Democrats, things could get very interesting come election day.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: homer on November 09, 2016, 01:25:17 pm
Judging from the reports this morning, sounds as if all the inflammatory rhetoric was just a means to Donald's end.  He doesn't really plan to build a wall, deport Mexicans or ban Muslims, but instead is mainly interested in the old time republican values of cutting taxes for the wealthy and removing pesky regulations impeding corporate interests.  There might be some rubes who eventually realize they were conned by one of the best and ask "Hey, why is that dark guy still here and why am I still without a high paying job," but they will be brushed aside til next election cycle.

Dismissing Trump as just another republican and his followers as driven by racist motives on the day after the election is based in ignorance. I have been following this... closely... and have yet to find any "reports" of anything you discuss.

Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on November 09, 2016, 02:06:39 pm
Dismissing Trump as just another republican and his followers as driven by racist motives on the day after the election is based in ignorance. I have been following this... closely... and have yet to find any "reports" of anything you discuss.

Any reports of racism amongst many of his followers?  I assume/hope you are not serious.

As to not doing what he said he was going to do (wall, immigrants and Muslims), that came from the RNC chairman while I was listening to MSNBC on the drive in.  The tax cut and eliminate regulation thing is basically his platform, which he didn't talk about much as he didn't have time between the talk about the wall, immigrants, Muslims and Hillary.

Trade?  Sure, I'll give you that, especially the day after he repeals NAFTA.   

Here's an article: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/who-is-in-president-trump-cabinet-231071 

Look at those folks, pretty much all traditional republican actors:  Gingrich for SoS, a Goldman exec for Treasury (remember when he hated "Wall Street bankers), republican senators for defense, Giuliani for AG, an oil exec for Interior, a climate change denier for EPA.  You might not be able to (or want to) see it for what it is, but that looks like about every Republican administration in my lifetime.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on November 09, 2016, 02:25:23 pm
Any reports of racism amongst many of his followers?  I assume/hope you are not serious.

As to not doing what he said he was going to do (wall, immigrants and Muslims), that came from the RNC chairman while I was listening to MSNBC on the drive in.  The tax cut and eliminate regulation thing is basically his platform, which he didn't talk about much as he didn't have time between the talk about the wall, immigrants, Muslims and Hillary.

Trade?  Sure, I'll give you that, especially the day after he repeals NAFTA.   

Here's an article: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/who-is-in-president-trump-cabinet-231071 

Look at those folks, pretty much all traditional republican actors:  Gingrich for SoS, a Goldman exec for Treasury (remember when he hated "Wall Street bankers), republican senators for defense, Giuliani for AG, an oil exec for Interior, a climate change denier for EPA.  You might not be able to (or want to) see it for what it is, but that looks like about every Republican administration in my lifetime.

I don't think I'm going to expect anything based on that article.  There's a ton of speculation in there without much, "Trump said he will look at these people..."  This election cycle should have taught everyone that other peoples' speculation means little with Trump's actions.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on November 10, 2016, 06:23:18 am
I was totally surprised by the outcome. I knew she was unpopular but still figured she'd win in a landslide because Trump is such a megalomaniacal kook. I think maybe Hillary lost because of the cumulative effect of a multitude of circumstances going as far back as Bill's presidential peccadilloes, the Bengazi tragedy, the damning content of the hacked emails, the deception and manipulation of the DNC, the pay for play scandal, the $250,000.00 speeches to Wall Street bankers... etc., finally took it's toll. Then the party fractured, die hard establishment democrats who live in a an echo chamber disregarded the progressive cries of the Bernie supporters. But not because she was a woman.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Mr. Happy on November 10, 2016, 07:49:50 am
I was totally surprised by the outcome. I knew she was unpopular but still figured she'd win in a landslide because Trump is such a megalomaniacal kook. I think maybe Hillary lost because of the cumulative effect of a multitude of circumstances going as far back as Bill's presidential peccadilloes, the Bengazi tragedy, the damning content of the hacked emails, the deception and manipulation of the DNC, the pay for play scandal, the $250,000.00 speeches to Wall Street bankers... etc., finally took it's toll. Then the party fractured, die hard establishment democrats who live in a an echo chamber disregarded the progressive cries of the Bernie supporters. But not because she was a woman.

I agree. She was an awful candidate, but it was her turn to bat. I was pleasantly surprised by the result. Trump successfully painted Hillary as the establishment candidate, when the public was anti-establishment. His "drain the swamp" message resonated.

The onus is now on the Republicans to govern. We need some real leadership in the worst way and to facilitate more economic development and to spread that to the middle class. The beauty of this situation is Trump is really not beholden to any major special interest groups, and he will be as much a thorn in the establishment Republicans' sides as anyone else.

I'm very much looking forward to his first 100 days to see what he can accomplish.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on November 10, 2016, 08:40:25 am
A beauty pageant MC runs against America's most visible feminist, but yeah, gender didn't have anything to do with the results. Y'all crazy. In my work, I routinely come across young women who are virulently anti-feminist. Sexism isn't strictly within the purview of men. 

She's going to win the popular vote, by the way. At the end of the day, the GOP will have lost their sixth popular vote out of seven, will have lost seats in the House and the Senate, and will claim a massive mandate. Those same bozos were preemptively claiming that a narrow Clinton victory wouldn't convey one.

What makes me angriest is that Mitch McConnell's transparently cynical Supreme Court gambit is going to pay off enormously. He and his caucus disenfranchised the 60 million voters who supported Obama in 2012, will disenfranchise the majority that voted for Hillary this time around, and they're never going to pay for it, because conservative voters evidently don't give a shit. Piss on the constitution all you want as long as it brings a W.

18% of voters who believed he was unqualified to be president pulled the lever for him anyway (thanks!), and now we all get to watch the Democrats be the sort of graceful losers their opponents--as they're currently constituted--could never be. Suddenly thick on the ground are lefty pundits gritting their teeth and saying give him a chance to lead, we're all on the same team, our highest priority is to make sure he loses in four years...oh wait, right, that was McConnell re: Obama. 

The party the majority of the country disagrees with on taxes, climate change, gun control, entitlements, abortion and gay marriage is going to enjoy more power than any other party in 80 years. We are F-U-C-K-E-D fucked.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on November 10, 2016, 09:02:21 am
... is going to enjoy more power than any other party in 80 years. We are F-U-C-K-E-D fucked.

Your entire rant is invalidated by this phrase.  You have forgotten the super-majority, we can do anything we want, republicans can go sit at the back of the bus, democrat federal government of 2009-10.  They literally did whatever they wanted including passing a massive, what was then a generally unpopular, health care bill.

A party controlling the House, Senate, and Presidency tend to lose the House and Senate quickly.  I expect a majority democrat House and Senate after the 2018 elections.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on November 10, 2016, 09:10:37 am
Your entire response to my entire rant is invalidated by your critical omission of the Supreme Court. They invalidated much of what Obama and the brief democratic majority accomplished. That will not be the case now.

ETA: to say nothing of Republican control of statehouses and governorships, which currently ties a 94-year-old record.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on November 10, 2016, 09:15:29 am
Your entire response to my entire rant is invalidated by your critical omission of the Supreme Court. They invalidated much of what Obama and the brief democratic majority accomplished. That will not be the case now.

Invalidated what?  The most important decision for ACA was Roberts siding with Obama and sending republicans into seizure.

Too how republican is Trump?  It wasn't long ago he was a pro-choice, pro-Clinton democrat.  I'm not convinced you'll see a very conservative nominee to the Supreme Court.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: homer on November 10, 2016, 09:16:24 am
They invalidated much of what Obama and the brief democratic majority accomplished.

You'll have to explain this in greater detail.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Mr. Happy on November 10, 2016, 09:20:15 am
Your entire response to my entire rant is invalidated by your critical omission of the Supreme Court. They invalidated much of what Obama and the brief democratic majority accomplished. That will not be the case now.

I have said this before, but I'll say it again: The Senate should have given the SCOTUS nominee a hearing. Don't be surprised if they still do so, because there are a lot of R's who are scared about who Trump might nominate.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on November 10, 2016, 09:21:38 am
The two years of democratic executive and legislative control resulted in the ACA, another round of TARP investment, and Dodd Frank. The hallmark legislation, the ACA, was handicapped right out of the gates by the Supreme Court's allowing states to opt out of Medicaid expansion. Dodd Frank will likely be maimed or erased in Trump's first 100 days.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on November 10, 2016, 09:30:26 am
"The country's most visible feminist" is an opportunist who you likely wouldn't be aware of if she had 't married Bill. Camille Paglia even thinks so. And how is feminism not sexist. And what the fuck does any of that have to do with being a president of the people?
I admire her graciousness in defeat.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on November 10, 2016, 09:36:39 am
"The country's most visible feminist" is an opportunist who you likely wouldn't be aware of if she had 't married Bill. Camille Paglia even thinks so. And how is feminism not sexist. And what the fuck does any of that have to do with being a president of the people?

I have no idea how to respond to any of that.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on November 10, 2016, 09:41:59 am
Invalidated what?  The most important decision for ACA was Roberts siding with Obama and sending republicans into seizure.

Too how republican is Trump?  It wasn't long ago he was a pro-choice, pro-Clinton democrat.  I'm not convinced you'll see a very conservative nominee to the Supreme Court.

Besides crippling the ACA, they blocked him on his immigration efforts and a pivotal plank of his environmental program. The Court was a qualified ally of the right wing block until Scalia's death, became a compromised ally of it after, and will likely be a much stronger ally for the next thirty or forty years.

And if the nominee's not conservative enough, what chance do you think s/he has of making it through confirmation? Why on earth would Republicans consent to anything but another Scalia? 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on November 10, 2016, 09:43:47 am
I agree. She was an awful candidate, but it was her turn to bat. I was pleasantly surprised by the result. Trump successfully painted Hillary as the establishment candidate, when the public was anti-establishment. His "drain the swamp" message resonated.

What exactly is his "drain the swamp" message?  I couldn't stomach listening to him, so I honestly don't know.  I heard term limits.  Is that true?  Was there more?  Lobbyists?  Corporate welfare (think drug companies)?  Or was the swamp just Democrats/Obama?

At any rate, if the swamp was more than Obama, I'm looking forward to just what he proposes.

My hope is as follows with Trump:  I've already said that he appears to be, and will certainly start as a run of the mill republican, but I'm pretty confident he cares more about adulation than actual principles.  So, he will at first rubber stamp the Republican's agenda, but I suspect the public's taste for a lot of that agenda is less than then the 50/50 vote split might indicate.  Polls will show this, public demonstrations will easily materialize, and he will hear a shifting cry from the people.  Trump, who at his core only wants to be loved, will abide the shifting cries of the people and break from core Republican orthodoxy and be something unique.  Maybe he actually will address things like term limits.  My hope at least.

Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on November 10, 2016, 09:49:59 am
I have no idea how to respond to any of that.
Maybe you should read more.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on November 10, 2016, 09:58:53 am
What exactly is his "drain the swamp" message?  I couldn't stomach listening to him, so I honestly don't know.  I heard term limits.  Is that true?  Was there more?  Lobbyists?  Corporate welfare (think drug companies)?  Or was the swamp just Democrats/Obama?

At any rate, if the swamp was more than Obama, I'm looking forward to just what he proposes.

My hope is as follows with Trump:  I've already said that he appears to be, and will certainly start as a run of the mill republican, but I'm pretty confident he cares more about adulation than actual principles.  So, he will at first rubber stamp the Republican's agenda, but I suspect the public's taste for a lot of that agenda is less than then the 50/50 vote split might indicate.  Polls will show this, public demonstrations will easily materialize, and he will hear a shifting cry from the people.  Trump, who at his core only wants to be loved, will abide the shifting cries of the people and break from core Republican orthodoxy and be something unique.  Maybe he actually will address things like term limits.  My hope at least.

I love this.  No one, especially on the left, has gotten it right on Trump.  Trump the politician has never existed.  For all anyone knows he'll end his inauguration address with, "Screw it.  It's all your's Pence.  I'm out."  I have no idea if he'll run right, center, or left.  Or if he'll move in any direction over 4 years.  Or if he'll run again in 4 years.

For the record, I wrote my own name in.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: GreatBagwellsBeard on November 10, 2016, 10:12:14 am
With regard to "drain the swamp", his announced 100 day agenda includes term limits and prohibitions on former members of Congress/White House staff serving as lobbyists for some number of years after they leave office.  Both will be hard sells in front of any Congress, but we've all be very surprised lately.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on November 10, 2016, 10:15:04 am
With regard to "drain the swamp", his announced 100 day agenda includes term limits and prohibitions on former members of Congress/White House staff serving as lobbyists for some number of years after they leave office.  Both will be hard sells in front of any Congress, but we've all be very surprised lately.

Term limits requires a Constitutional amendment. That sure ain't happening by April.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: homer on November 10, 2016, 10:29:12 am
Besides crippling the ACA, they blocked him on his immigration efforts and a pivotal plank of his environmental program. The Court was a qualified ally of the right wing block until Scalia's death, became a compromised ally of it after, and will likely be a much stronger ally for the next thirty or forty years.

And if the nominee's not conservative enough, what chance do you think s/he has of making it through confirmation? Why on earth would Republicans consent to anything but another Scalia? 

It's pretty clear that we disagree on the function of the Supreme Court. As Jacksonian point out, their decisions put republicans of all types into seizure- it seems, as though, if you are also this unhappy with them they are doing a better job than I thought.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: JimR on November 10, 2016, 10:55:27 am
I love this.  No one, especially on the left, has gotten it right on Trump.  Trump the politician has never existed.  For all anyone knows he'll end his inauguration address with, "Screw it.  It's all your's Pence.  I'm out."  I have no idea if he'll run right, center, or left.  Or if he'll move in any direction over 4 years.  Or if he'll run again in 4 years.

For the record, I wrote my own name in.

there is no way this man can govern a country. I am certain the outcome surprised him as much as it did me. the throwing his hands up and quitting scenario also occurred to me.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: hostros7 on November 10, 2016, 01:12:58 pm
there is no way this man can govern a country. I am certain the outcome surprised him as much as it did me. the throwing his hands up and quitting scenario also occurred to me.

I think it's unlikely that he'll quit,  but he may take the same approach to running the country that Clyde Drexler took to coaching, which is to say only showing up when absolutely necessary to maintain the appearance that he is actually doing something.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on November 10, 2016, 01:16:04 pm
I think it's unlikely that he'll quit,  but he may take the same approach to running the country that Clyde Drexler took to coaching, which is to say only showing up when absolutely necessary to maintain the appearance that he is actually doing something.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'll be cabinet-appointee watching.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on November 10, 2016, 03:10:39 pm
I love this.  No one, especially on the left, has gotten it right on Trump.

I don't know what "it" is, but seems to me the foremost objection among people like me is that he is an (at best) amoral cynical opportunist and con-man, probably with narcissistic personality disorder, someone who is proud of his ignorance, probably delusional, and a bully. The "it" with Trump has never been about issues or ideology because there's no there there: he's covered most sides of every issue at one time or another. "It" has always been a question of character.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: GreatBagwellsBeard on November 10, 2016, 03:36:34 pm
I don't know what "it" is, but seems to me the foremost objection among people like me is that he is an (at best) amoral cynical opportunist and con-man, probably with narcissistic personality disorder, someone who is proud of his ignorance, probably delusional, and a bully. The "it" with Trump has never been about issues or ideology because there's no there there: he's covered most sides of every issue at one time or another. "It" has always been a question of character.

I think the "it" Jacksonian is referring to is the appeal of Trump.  Which is far more complex than anyone in either party seemed willing to grasp.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: juliogotay on November 10, 2016, 04:11:00 pm
I don't know what "it" is, but seems to me the foremost objection among people like me is that he is an (at best) amoral cynical opportunist and con-man, probably with narcissistic personality disorder, someone who is proud of his ignorance, probably delusional, and a bully. The "it" with Trump has never been about issues or ideology because there's no there there: he's covered most sides of every issue at one time or another. "It" has always been a question of character.

And Mrs. Clinton's character?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Nate Colbert on November 10, 2016, 04:19:35 pm
And Mrs. Clinton's character?

Assassinated.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Mr. Happy on November 10, 2016, 04:24:12 pm
Assassinated.

It was a series of self-inflicted wounds.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Nate Colbert on November 10, 2016, 04:28:27 pm
I agree. She was an awful candidate, but it was her turn to bat. I was pleasantly surprised by the result. Trump successfully painted Hillary as the establishment candidate, when the public was anti-establishment. His "drain the swamp" message resonated.

The onus is now on the Republicans to govern. We need some real leadership in the worst way and to facilitate more economic development and to spread that to the middle class. The beauty of this situation is Trump is really not beholden to any major special interest groups, and he will be as much a thorn in the establishment Republicans' sides as anyone else.

I'm very much looking forward to his first 100 days to see what he can accomplish.

I'm confused. I thought you told us you were voting for Clinton.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on November 10, 2016, 05:16:47 pm
I'll be cabinet-appointee watching.

It's going to be an odd mix. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on November 10, 2016, 05:19:05 pm
there is no way this man can govern a country. I am certain the outcome surprised him as much as it did me. the throwing his hands up and quitting scenario also occurred to me.

I wonder how many frantic phone calls he had to make to postpone Trump TV.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Mr. Happy on November 10, 2016, 05:35:41 pm
I'm confused. I thought you told us you were voting for Clinton.

I just couldn't do it. My experience with her back in the 80's with the Rose Law Firm was just too much to ignore. I thought that she'd win for sure.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on November 10, 2016, 05:42:45 pm
I just couldn't do it. My experience with her back in the 80's with the Rose Law Firm was just too much to ignore. I thought that she'd win for sure.

Did you come home to Trump or did you write in John Kasich?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on November 11, 2016, 10:18:46 am
And how is feminism not sexist.

Feminism = "Everyone should be treated equally regardless of gender."

Sexism = "No they shouldn't."
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MRaup on November 11, 2016, 11:14:39 am
Feminism = "Everyone should be treated equally regardless of gender."

Sexism = "No they shouldn't."

Sphinxism = "Get off my lawn!"
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on November 11, 2016, 12:26:28 pm
Feminism = "Everyone should be treated equally regardless of gender."
Thanks for straightening that out.  I guess that trumps simply treating everyone equally. That's why they gave it a name.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on November 11, 2016, 12:32:54 pm
Sphinxism = "Get off my lawn!"
Right. Unless you're there to rake leaves.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on November 11, 2016, 01:56:06 pm
Right. Unless you're there to rake leaves.
Or brought beer.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Mr. Happy on November 11, 2016, 02:34:27 pm
Did you come home to Trump or did you write in John Kasich?

Kasich is a tool. I voted for Trump, primarily for his anti-establishment message.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on November 11, 2016, 03:12:54 pm
Aaaaaaand........ we're off.  Christie out as transition head.  Pence in.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Navin R Johnson on November 11, 2016, 04:19:10 pm
Sweet a guy who wants the government to spend money on curing gay. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on November 11, 2016, 04:43:04 pm
Kasich is a tool. I voted for Trump, primarily for his anti-establishment message.

I'm curious to see just how much anti-establishment you get.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Mr. Happy on November 11, 2016, 04:47:18 pm
I'm curious to see just how much anti-establishment you get.

Probably not much, but it was more than I would have expected from Hillary.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on November 11, 2016, 04:55:00 pm
Probably not much, but it was more than I would have expected from Hillary.

None of the anti-establishment, but all of the racism and xenophobia.  What a grand bargain. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Mr. Happy on November 11, 2016, 05:09:11 pm
None of the anti-establishment, but all of the racism and xenophobia.  What a grand bargain.

My vote was an anti-Hillary gesture. I believe her to be a threat to freedom and national security.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on November 11, 2016, 05:18:15 pm
Sweet a guy who wants the government to spend money on curing gay.

Let's be clear: by "curing", we're talking about "electrocuting".


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on November 11, 2016, 05:19:44 pm
My vote was an anti-Hillary gesture. I believe her to be a threat to freedom and national security.

I can understand that. But a candidate who coordinates with foreign powers during the campaign and openly discusses using nuclear weapons on a first strike basis is a fairly big threat to national security.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on November 11, 2016, 05:33:11 pm
I can understand that. But a candidate who coordinates with foreign powers during the campaign and openly discusses using nuclear weapons on a first strike basis is a fairly big threat to national security.


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Don't forget wanting to start a war if rude gestures are made towards US armed forces, compared to a former senator and secretary of state who is liked and respected by the majority of world leaders. 

Happy - I'm curious when you made up your mind and whether the Comey letter had much of anything to do with that.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: austro on November 11, 2016, 07:30:34 pm
None of the anti-establishment, but all of the racism and xenophobia.  What a grand bargain. 

All of the idiots are coming out of the woodwork now. I'm trying not to get too alarmed because most of the stories I've seen have come from Facebook posts and there's no telling how real they are. I'm hoping that some genuine news outlets will look into what we're hearing about and determine if it's real.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on November 11, 2016, 08:14:01 pm
And now not even in office and he's reportedly open to preserving at least part of ACA.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on November 11, 2016, 08:45:18 pm

All of the idiots are coming out of the woodwork now. I'm trying not to get too alarmed because most of the stories I've seen have come from Facebook posts and there's no telling how real they are. I'm hoping that some genuine news outlets will look into what we're hearing about and determine if it's real.

The Wellesley and Penn incidents are reported and verified. I'm sure there's a lot of bs but reports I get from the ADL confirm a lot of the anecdotal incidents. Hell, the KKK applied for a celebratory parade in North Carolina. Awful people feel very emboldened.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: austro on November 11, 2016, 08:58:07 pm
The Wellesley and Penn incidents are reported and verified. I'm sure there's a lot of bs but reports I get from the ADL confirm a lot of the anecdotal incidents. Hell, the KKK applied for a celebratory parade in North Carolina. Awful people feel very emboldened.

It will be interesting to see if all of the people who are so adamant about Muslim leaders denouncing terrorism will be quick to stand up and denounce this behavior.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: mrpink on November 11, 2016, 08:59:44 pm
Awful people feel very emboldened.
Rioters caused $1MM in damage in Portland last night.  Seems to me there are awful people everywhere.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on November 12, 2016, 05:22:04 pm
Those on both sides who are more interested in hate, anger, and intolerance are making themselves known.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Mr. Happy on November 13, 2016, 04:50:26 am
Don't forget wanting to start a war if rude gestures are made towards US armed forces, compared to a former senator and secretary of state who is liked and respected by the majority of world leaders. 

Happy - I'm curious when you made up your mind and whether the Comey letter had much of anything to do with that.

The second Comey letter had nothing to do with it, although I laughed at Comey's second no evidence letter that came out the sunday before the election, which was obviously the product of severe political pressure from the White House. 

The Justice Department has seriously hampered those investigations in a partisan way. Can you imagine doing an investigation without subpoena power? That's what they were working with. I believe that a nonpartisan prosecutor with a nonpartisan FBI would find enough evidence against Clinton in both the pay-to-play and private server issues to try and convict her.

In the end, it was just too much baggage for Clinton for me to vote for her. Again, I believe that it goes back to that contempt order back in the 1980's. Had there been an ethics intervention back then, she might have suffered some consequences and learned a valuable lesson. But her husband was governor of Arkansas, so nothing happened. When she skated by with the firm paying the $5,000 contempt fine by the court, she was emboldened to take additional and increasingly larger liberties for lo these many years, leading all the way up to the present.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on November 13, 2016, 10:45:20 pm
The second Comey letter had nothing to do with it, although I laughed at Comey's second no evidence letter that came out the sunday before the election, which was obviously the product of severe political pressure from the White House. 

The Justice Department has seriously hampered those investigations in a partisan way. Can you imagine doing an investigation without subpoena power? That's what they were working with. I believe that a nonpartisan prosecutor with a nonpartisan FBI would find enough evidence against Clinton in both the pay-to-play and private server issues to try and convict her.

In the end, it was just too much baggage for Clinton for me to vote for her. Again, I believe that it goes back to that contempt order back in the 1980's. Had there been an ethics intervention back then, she might have suffered some consequences and learned a valuable lesson. But her husband was governor of Arkansas, so nothing happened. When she skated by with the firm paying the $5,000 contempt fine by the court, she was emboldened to take additional and increasingly larger liberties for lo these many years, leading all the way up to the present.

Putting aside the merits of the email and foundation issues (which hardly seem to me like an open and shut case of anything), I cannot imagine the mental gymnastics that result in voting for Donald Trump out of ethical concerns.  Even without the explicit racism and misogyny of his campaign, the Trump University fraud case, his long history of stiffing contractors and lack of transparency, we are about to get a master class in modern presidential conflicts of interest. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on November 14, 2016, 08:41:21 am
Not that this is really earth-shattering, but I found it interesting in that it lays bare what has been happening for quite a while: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/11/opinion/identity-over-ideology.html?_r=0

The trick for progressives will be to enlist some of "them" to advocate for change (or at least not upheaval) in policies where is might be achievable.  Health care and banking regulation come to mind.  Climate change might be a possibility but a long shot. 

Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: JimR on November 14, 2016, 09:42:22 am
I just couldn't do it. My experience with her back in the 80's with the Rose Law Firm was just too much to ignore. I thought that she'd win for sure.

a 30 year prejudice? wow.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: BudGirl on November 14, 2016, 10:58:29 am
a 30 year prejudice? wow.

That does not surprise me.  Most of Republicans have hated her since Bill was in office.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on November 14, 2016, 11:23:06 am
If you were born in a sweet spot between 1978 and 1982, 40% of the presidential elections you've been able to vote in have gone to the loser of the popular vote. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Phil_in_CS on November 14, 2016, 03:13:28 pm
Rioters caused $1MM in damage in Portland last night.  Seems to me there are awful people everywhere.

We have an issue with thugs turning up at legitimate protests to prey on the protestors and to incite mayhem so they can loot. That's a serious issue and I don't see a simple way around it. You can 10,000 people protesting - very emotionally heated but peaceful. One thug tosses a molotov and the riot is on.

Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Mr. Happy on November 14, 2016, 03:20:44 pm
a 30 year prejudice? wow.

I can't respect people who knowingly lied in writing to a federal judge. Call me crazy (which would neither be the first nor last time), but I just can't. Had there been a personal consequence right then and there, a bar sanction or suspension, it might have spared us all a career of living on the edge of criminality. Trump was far from a perfect candidate, but I respect his continued ability to get things done, which iOS what we sorely need right now. I hope that he's as much a thorn in the asses of the mainstream Republican Party as he is the Democrats.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: juliogotay on November 14, 2016, 03:30:06 pm
I can't respect people who knowingly lied in writing to a federal judge. Call me crazy (which would neither be the first nor last time), but I just can't. Had there been a personal consequence right then and there, a bar sanction or suspension, it might have spared us all a career of living on the edge of criminality. Trump was far from a perfect candidate, but I respect his continued ability to get things done, which iOS what we sorely need right now. I hope that he's as much a thorn in the asses of the mainstream Republican Party as he is the Democrats.

I agree with that last statement very much.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: juliogotay on November 14, 2016, 03:30:51 pm
We have an issue with thugs turning up at legitimate protests to prey on the protestors and to incite mayhem so they can loot. That's a serious issue and I don't see a simple way around it. You can 10,000 people protesting - very emotionally heated but peaceful. One thug tosses a molotov and the riot is on.

You don't think this is all spontaneous do you?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Phil_in_CS on November 14, 2016, 03:51:31 pm
You don't think this is all spontaneous do you?

No, the demonstrations are planned events. That's legitimate to do. I do think people that want to take part in mayhem and looting use the demonstrations as a springboard. You get a crowd all hopped up, get the cops all on edge, and it doesn't take much to set it off. The Portland folks are claiming it was anarchists, and we certainly have nihilistic folks that just want to burn things, but there are opportunistic people looking for a quick theft that show up at these too. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on November 14, 2016, 04:07:58 pm
No, the demonstrations are planned events. That's legitimate to do. I do think people that want to take part in mayhem and looting use the demonstrations as a springboard. You get a crowd all hopped up, get the cops all on edge, and it doesn't take much to set it off. The Portland folks are claiming it was anarchists, and we certainly have nihilistic folks that just want to burn things, but there are opportunistic people looking for a quick theft that show up at these too.

What of the notion that one goal of some of the protesters is to incite violence in others, to throw gasoline on the flames until they lose control?  Nonsense?  Legitimate concern?  Real?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Phil_in_CS on November 14, 2016, 04:38:59 pm
What of the notion that one goal of some of the protesters is to incite violence in others, to throw gasoline on the flames until they lose control?  Nonsense?  Legitimate concern?  Real?

That's real too. I was just looking at some video from Portland of them smashing up a car with a pregnant young woman inside. They had baseball bats - you don't bring a bat to a protest if you're planning to be peaceful. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJkjLoZuxbQ

This has been a grown trend for a couple decades. First I recall it was at the WTO Riots in Seattle. You have agitated crowds with things that are legitimate to protest about, get the police agitated, and it takes a very small spark to ignite it. You can see she's on the phone - reports are she was calling 911, but was told they police were keeping a 'low profile' and would not respond quickly. Keeping the police in low profile during a riot is another current trend, as just having them there agitate some groups. However, combine low police presence with people who want to cause mayhem (either from pure nihilism or for profit) and things get ugly very quickly.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: juliogotay on November 14, 2016, 04:55:36 pm
That's real too. I was just looking at some video from Portland of them smashing up a car with a pregnant young woman inside. They had baseball bats - you don't bring a bat to a protest if you're planning to be peaceful. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJkjLoZuxbQ

This has been a grown trend for a couple decades. First I recall it was at the WTO Riots in Seattle. You have agitated crowds with things that are legitimate to protest about, get the police agitated, and it takes a very small spark to ignite it. You can see she's on the phone - reports are she was calling 911, but was told they police were keeping a 'low profile' and would not respond quickly. Keeping the police in low profile during a riot is another current trend, as just having them there agitate some groups. However, combine low police presence with people who want to cause mayhem (either from pure nihilism or for profit) and things get ugly very quickly.

I'm confident that if we followed the thread it would lead to Soros or some such Alinsky-ite.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Phil_in_CS on November 14, 2016, 05:54:16 pm
I'm confident that if we followed the thread it would lead to Soros or some such Alinsky-ite.

Having paid agitators provoke large peaceful riots is classic guerrilla theory, from Mao's Red Book and modified by Che in Guerrilla Warfare. However, those books are classic because the method is often successful, and those are widely used and adapted by groups with much different worldviews. They're required reading for military officers in nearly every nation, and the Islamic terrorists have made good use of them despite being religious in nature rather than atheistic like the communists.  Alinsky isn't as well known, but his Rules for Radicals is good source material no matter what your ideology.

To take the point someone is funding this on a national scale, the next question would be 'to what end?'  These groups do not have popular support. Getting more violent will result in a police crackdown (as intended, per Mao and Che) but without the popular support the movement won't endure the pressure. About a quarter of the nation voted for Mrs. Clinton, but very few of them support this violence. So, accepting the point someone is driving this, what is the end result they desire? A popular uprising in support of these people isn't happening. Per Mao and Che, the ensuing police brutality would push more people to the cause, but in this case most would see the crack down as justified. People are tired of this shit and want it to stop. You could argue the opposite - that getting the provocateurs in place is to enable an increased police state, but people are tired of that shit too. I am not saying that some person or group isn't driving this, but it's difficult to see the end game.

Of course, there's the saying "if you think someone smart is acting stupid, you might not know what game he's playing."  So maybe there's an achievable goal and I don't see it.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on November 14, 2016, 09:19:58 pm
Having paid agitators provoke large peaceful riots is classic guerrilla theory, from Mao's Red Book and modified by Che in Guerrilla Warfare. However, those books are classic because the method is often successful, and those are widely used and adapted by groups with much different worldviews. They're required reading for military officers in nearly every nation, and the Islamic terrorists have made good use of them despite being religious in nature rather than atheistic like the communists.  Alinsky isn't as well known, but his Rules for Radicals is good source material no matter what your ideology.

To take the point someone is funding this on a national scale, the next question would be 'to what end?'  These groups do not have popular support. Getting more violent will result in a police crackdown (as intended, per Mao and Che) but without the popular support the movement won't endure the pressure. About a quarter of the nation voted for Mrs. Clinton, but very few of them support this violence. So, accepting the point someone is driving this, what is the end result they desire? A popular uprising in support of these people isn't happening. Per Mao and Che, the ensuing police brutality would push more people to the cause, but in this case most would see the crack down as justified. People are tired of this shit and want it to stop. You could argue the opposite - that getting the provocateurs in place is to enable an increased police state, but people are tired of that shit too. I am not saying that some person or group isn't driving this, but it's difficult to see the end game.

Of course, there's the saying "if you think someone smart is acting stupid, you might not know what game he's playing."  So maybe there's an achievable goal and I don't see it.

Goal: Electors breaking and voting in Clinton next month.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on November 15, 2016, 07:42:23 am
There's always a boogie man. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on November 15, 2016, 07:58:37 am
Goal: Electors breaking and voting in Clinton next month.

That's as nutty as secession.  Though at least it's Constitutional, I suppose. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Phil_in_CS on November 15, 2016, 11:44:24 am
Goal: Electors breaking and voting in Clinton next month.

That's technically possible but not likely. The rioting is making the Trump electors more convinced, not less.

This is interesting, from a Portland TV station. More than half the people arrested in the demonstration did not vote.
http://www.wcnc.com/mb/news/more-than-half-of-arrested-anti-trump-protesters-didnt-vote/351988279

Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: juliogotay on November 15, 2016, 12:47:17 pm
That's technically possible but not likely. The rioting is making the Trump electors more convinced, not less.

This is interesting, from a Portland TV station. More than half the people arrested in the demonstration did not vote.
http://www.wcnc.com/mb/news/more-than-half-of-arrested-anti-trump-protesters-didnt-vote/351988279

That is what I would have expected about the non-voting demonstrators. Garden-variety thugs.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on November 17, 2016, 06:27:50 pm
I'm very much looking forward to his first 100 days to see what he can accomplish.

If it's anything like his first 7 days as President-Elect...
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Mr. Happy on November 17, 2016, 06:40:26 pm
If it's anything like his first 7 days as President-Elect...

You're drinking the lame stream media koolaid. It would be unwise to underestimate him.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on November 17, 2016, 08:38:28 pm
You're drinking the lame stream media koolaid.

Hap, I love you man, but this is the dumbest phrase in the history of dumb phrases.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: moriartp on November 18, 2016, 06:57:16 am
Hap, I love you man, but this is the dumbest phrase in the history of dumb phrases.


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But if he's only getting his news from the lame stream media, how is he supposed to protect himself from immigrants and fluoridated water? America was a better place in 1950. Buy gold.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on November 18, 2016, 08:02:04 am
You're drinking the lame stream media koolaid. It would be unwise to underestimate him.

As opposed to getting my news from @RealDonaldTrump?

As a lawyer, what do you think about the significant conflicts of interests created by a Trump presidency?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: geezerdonk on November 18, 2016, 09:26:00 am
Hap, I love you man, but this is the dumbest phrase in the history of dumb phrases.


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More Great Moments in Condescension.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Ty in Tampa on November 18, 2016, 10:08:29 am
More Great Moments in Condescension.

I see what you did there...
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on November 18, 2016, 10:14:40 am
As opposed to getting my news from @RealDonaldTrump?

As a lawyer, what do you think about the significant conflicts of interests created by a Trump presidency?

Anybody who voted for him ignored or disregarded the fact that at various times in his campaign he impugned the independent judiciary, the freedom of the press and the freedom of worship. They also chose to ignore or disregard that he refused to release his tax returns (something required of every cabinet-level officer) and that he threatened to use the office of the president to exact revenge on his political opponents. He also promised to order his underlings to break the law by bringing back torture--torture "a lot worse" than waterboarding.

If you're able to overlook all that, I imagine a few penny ante ethical conflicts won't make much of a difference.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: JimR on November 18, 2016, 10:57:45 am
Hap, I love you man, but this is the dumbest phrase in the history of dumb phrases.


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ditto to that.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on November 18, 2016, 11:39:58 am
Hap, I love you man, but this is the dumbest phrase in the history of dumb phrases.


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I disagree, if we're talking HISTORY of dumb phrases, I don't think it is even in the top 25. Maybe top 40... 37th???
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: juliogotay on November 20, 2016, 09:46:53 am
Anybody who voted for him ignored or disregarded the fact that at various times in his campaign he impugned the independent judiciary, the freedom of the press and the freedom of worship. They also chose to ignore or disregard that he refused to release his tax returns (something required of every cabinet-level officer) and that he threatened to use the office of the president to exact revenge on his political opponents. He also promised to order his underlings to break the law by bringing back torture--torture "a lot worse" than waterboarding.

If you're able to overlook all that, I imagine a few penny ante ethical conflicts won't make much of a difference.

Both the President and candidate have been very gracious in wishing the winner congratulations and good luck. Maybe it is time for voters to do the same?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Navin R Johnson on November 20, 2016, 10:58:34 am
Both the President and candidate have been very gracious in wishing the winner congratulations and good luck. Maybe it is time for voters to do the same?


Yeah, that is not even remotely close to how politics in this country have worked any longer.  See Obama, Bush, Clinton...
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: moriartp on November 20, 2016, 11:29:33 am


Both the President and candidate have been very gracious in wishing the winner congratulations and good luck. Maybe it is time for voters to do the same?

Nah. POTUS has a duty to ensure a smooth transition and protect the integrity of the office. Kudos to him for carrying it out.

Me? Trump can kiss my ass.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on November 20, 2016, 12:23:47 pm
Has Trump appointed any more white supremacists to his cabinet or does he take a break from that on Sunday to sit around with his family and read his favorite passages from Two Corinthians?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on November 20, 2016, 12:26:12 pm
So I snagged me three copies of the recalled Newsweek HIllary Commemorative Edition.  I will start the bidding at 1 million dollars. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on November 20, 2016, 12:27:57 pm
Has Trump appointed any more white supremacists to his cabinet or does he take a break from that on Sunday to sit around with his family and read his favorite passages from Two Corinthians?

I always thought of Trump as more of an Old Testament guy...you know, stoning homosexuals and impregnating your sister-in-law. 
Title: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: geezerdonk on November 20, 2016, 01:20:47 pm
Welcome to the supercilious poseur sweepstakes.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: WVastro on November 20, 2016, 02:39:39 pm
Has Trump appointed any more white supremacists to his cabinet or does he take a break from that on Sunday to sit around with his family and read his favorite passages from Two Corinthians?

If only. The "team" uses Sunday's to talk super tough about torture.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on November 20, 2016, 03:07:12 pm
If only. The "team" uses Sunday's to talk super tough about torture.

Of terror suspects, or gay people?


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on November 20, 2016, 07:50:41 pm
Of terror suspects, or gay people?
You just had to ask.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: WVastro on November 20, 2016, 11:38:01 pm
Of terror suspects, or gay people?


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Legitimate question.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on November 21, 2016, 09:12:01 am
Legitimate question.
I think torture is abhorrent but the answer to the question is, probably only the gay terrorist suspects.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Navin R Johnson on January 20, 2017, 11:44:34 am
Welp, this orange buffoon is our president now.  Pretty surreal. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on January 20, 2017, 02:20:48 pm
Of all the unpleasant things Trump could have done with his first executive orders I did not expect raising mortgage insurance premiums for low-income and first-time home buyers. (https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-01-20/trump-administration-overturns-obama-s-fha-mortgage-fee-cut)
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on January 20, 2017, 05:44:42 pm
Of all the unpleasant things Trump could have done with his first executive orders I did not expect raising mortgage insurance premiums for low-income and first-time home buyers. (https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-01-20/trump-administration-overturns-obama-s-fha-mortgage-fee-cut)

The immediate actions Trump can take - basically undoing all of Obama's executive orders - are going to have deep and instant impacts upon low-income families, aka Trump voters.  If the GOP follows through on its quixotic goal of repealing ObamaCare, the 2018 election cycle is going to be a dumpster fire for them (remember 2010?).

When healthcare renewal rolls around next October, those same Trump voters are going to be harshly reminded of what an unregulated, market-driven health insurance looks like.  They, in turn, will let their GOP representatives know what they think; it's already started, in fact, and it's not going well (http://time.com/4635551/mike-coffman-aca-obamacare-repeal-meeting/).
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on January 20, 2017, 06:29:45 pm
The immediate actions Trump can take - basically undoing all of Obama's executive orders - are going to have deep and instant impacts upon low-income families, aka Trump voters.  If the GOP follows through on its quixotic goal of repealing ObamaCare, the 2018 election cycle is going to be a dumpster fire for them (remember 2010?).

When healthcare renewal rolls around next October, those same Trump voters are going to be harshly reminded of what an unregulated, market-driven health insurance looks like.  They, in turn, will let their GOP representatives know what they think; it's already started, in fact, and it's not going well (http://time.com/4635551/mike-coffman-aca-obamacare-repeal-meeting/).

Mister Voter, which do you prefer - a fucked up Pink Floyd nightmare fantasy expertly designed to appeal to racists and idiots or a guarantee that you will be able to continue to purchase health insurance? Hm?

You d-bag. Your making America great again by killing affordable healthcare? Regretting that I voted for you already.

Say It AINT SO, Repealing the 26 year old rule and pre existing condition. I voted for you you said you were keeping laws

Well. Fantasy it is. Carry on.

https://twitter.com/ultprivacy/status/819757093339168768?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

https://twitter.com/flippy0001/status/819656548465147909?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: austro on January 20, 2017, 07:27:34 pm
Mister Voter, which do you prefer - a fucked up Pink Floyd nightmare fantasy expertly designed to appeal to racists and idiots or a guarantee that you will be able to continue to purchase health insurance? Hm?

You d-bag. Your making America great again by killing affordable healthcare? Regretting that I voted for you already.

Say It AINT SO, Repealing the 26 year old rule and pre existing condition. I voted for you you said you were keeping laws

Well. Fantasy it is. Carry on.

https://twitter.com/ultprivacy/status/819757093339168768?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

https://twitter.com/flippy0001/status/819656548465147909?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw



You know, I can kind of understand young people who voted for him because they believed what he said. They're naive, and they haven't been burned yet, and they'll just have to learn the hard way. But middle-aged people who fell for the shtick and think he has their backs are just deluded and ought to know better. The guy has a long track record that indicates that he cares only about himself and the other privileged few that share his orbit. Everybody else is going to get fucked bigly.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on January 21, 2017, 08:34:03 am
Mister Voter, which do you prefer - a fucked up Pink Floyd nightmare fantasy expertly designed to appeal to racists and idiots or a guarantee that you will be able to continue to purchase health insurance? Hm?

You d-bag. Your making America great again by killing affordable healthcare? Regretting that I voted for you already.

Say It AINT SO, Repealing the 26 year old rule and pre existing condition. I voted for you you said you were keeping laws

Well. Fantasy it is. Carry on.

https://twitter.com/ultprivacy/status/819757093339168768?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

https://twitter.com/flippy0001/status/819656548465147909?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw


Trump also vowed not to cut a single dollar from Medicare and Medicaid, and that his replacement healthcare plan will cover everyone, be cheaper and have lower deductibles.  Of course, he has already broken so many promises that another couple won't matter to him.

The ability of Trump voters to be gaslit into believing anything he says (Putin's approval rating is increasing with Trump voters, for example) will mean he will keep his base.  But he won by a slim margin, lost the popular vote, is unpopular generally, and desperately so for an incoming, first term President.  He may actually drain the swamp in the same way that Vader brought balance to the Force: by collecting up all the nut jobs in Washington and marching them into the Delaware.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: geezerdonk on January 21, 2017, 10:06:43 am
As I cast my eye over the country in ruins and contemplate the grim prospects of its inhabitants, I take some small solace in my moral and intellectual superiority to the sixty million or so racist cretins who brought us to this state of affairs.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on January 21, 2017, 12:46:13 pm

The ability of Trump voters to be gaslit into believing anything he says (Putin's approval rating is increasing with Trump voters, for example) will mean he will keep his base.

Trump specializes in this, but it is by no means restricted to his followers. Studies consistently show that people adopt the policies of leaders they like - they don't choose leaders that share their policies.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: austro on January 21, 2017, 12:54:31 pm
Trump specializes in this, but it is by no means restricted to his followers. Studies consistently show that people adopt the policies of leaders they like - they don't choose leaders that share their policies.

Humans are weird. It's a bit of a wonder we've lasted as long as we have. The next few hundred years will be a serious test of our adaptability.
Title: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on January 21, 2017, 09:30:47 pm
Let the record reflect that the first official act of the White House Press Secretary was to lie about size.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: austro on January 22, 2017, 07:54:22 am
Let the record reflect that the first official act of the White House Press Secretary was to lie about

Baghdad Bob has resurfaced!
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on January 22, 2017, 10:30:23 am

Let the record reflect that the first official act of the White House Press Secretary was to lie about size.


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Between the outright angry lie to the press and the delusional incoherent self-aggrandizing address to the CIA (along with a fake laugh track and all), the trump administration began with no surprises.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on January 23, 2017, 02:54:59 pm
Between the outright angry lie to the press and the delusional incoherent self-aggrandizing address to the CIA (along with a fake laugh track and all), the trump administration began with no surprises.

Actually, one pleasant one: the Women's march on Saturday, which was then (predictably) dismissed by Trump. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Nate Colbert on January 28, 2017, 06:40:30 pm
Justin Trudeau ‏@JustinTrudeau  4 hours ago
To those fleeing persecution, terror & war, Canadians will welcome you, regardless of your faith. Diversity is our strength #WelcomeToCanada
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on January 28, 2017, 09:33:11 pm
Justin Trudeau ‏@JustinTrudeau  4 hours ago
To those fleeing persecution, terror & war, Canadians will welcome you, regardless of your faith. Diversity is our strength #WelcomeToCanada
I should really consider the offer.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on January 28, 2017, 09:44:40 pm
Canada has refused to give me a visa.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Navin R Johnson on January 29, 2017, 02:40:40 am
Our president is a complete nutcase. YAY USA?
Title: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: geezerdonk on January 29, 2017, 07:27:24 am
All would do well to heed PM Trudeau.  His rich wisdom in general and his compassionate concern for refugees in particular is demonstrated by his deep admiration for long time family friend, Fidel Castro, Cuba's gentle and enlightened steward.  Who better to instruct us on the plight of those fleeing tyranny, murder and torture? 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Ron Brand on January 29, 2017, 08:13:08 am
Who better to instruct us on the plight of those fleeing tyranny, murder and torture?

It sure as shit isn't that fuckstick Bannon.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on January 29, 2017, 08:57:15 am
It sure as shit isn't that fuckstick Bannon.

That toxic piece of shit is writing all these "executive orders" and sits on the NSC in place of the joint chiefs.  Politically, Trump is an empty vessel which Bannon is filling with all of the evils that lurk in the spider-infested corners of his fevered brain. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: moriartp on January 29, 2017, 09:10:42 am
Thank goodness we have men of principle like Paul Ryan in power to stand up to hahahahahaha kill me
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on January 29, 2017, 10:13:47 am
Thank goodness we have men of principle like Paul Ryan in power to stand up to hahahahahaha kill me

Trump is making it easy for the Democrats to have a "blue wave" in 2018 akin to the Republican success in 2010 (although I'm sure they can find a way to fuck it up).   The real test is whether Republicans will do the right thing, even if it's for the wrong reasons. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on January 29, 2017, 01:51:03 pm
Trump is making it easy for the Democrats to have a "blue wave" in 2018 akin to the Republican success in 2010 (although I'm sure they can find a way to fuck it up).   The real test is whether Republicans will do the right thing, even if it's for the wrong reasons.

I say this with a straight face:

Having appointed Bannon to the NSC, what makes you think he will allow 2018 elections to take place?


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on January 29, 2017, 02:44:39 pm
I say this with a straight face:

Having appointed Bannon to the NSC, what makes you think he will allow 2018 elections to take place?


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Saying this with my  head slightly cocked to one side:

What makes you think he wont allow the 2018 elections to take place?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on January 29, 2017, 02:46:54 pm
Saying this with my  head slightly cocked to one side:

What makes you think he wont allow the 2018 elections to take place?


Well, Bannon had explicitly stated that he wants to "collapse the state". He now sits on the NSC, in place of the Joint Chiefs.

President Trump has already demonstrated that he does not believe election results. If that's the case, why bother with them?


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on January 29, 2017, 03:48:34 pm
I say this with a straight face:

Having appointed Bannon to the NSC, what makes you think he will allow 2018 elections to take place?

Oh, they'll happen.  However, I am not convinced that the results won't be a Saddamesque 99% vote for Trump.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Mr. Happy on January 29, 2017, 03:53:35 pm
I'd be lying if I said that I wasn't enjoying all the weeping and gnashing of teeth in here over Trump. He's actually only doing what he said that he'd do. For modern day pols, that's really saying something. /ducks/
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on January 29, 2017, 04:07:46 pm
I'd be lying if I said that I wasn't enjoying all the weeping and gnashing of teeth in here over Trump. He's actually only doing what he said that he'd do. For modern day pols, that's really saying something. /ducks/

Very true, but that doesn't not mean that he isn't going to get a yuuuge negative reaction when he tries to push through any number of his other ill-conceived, amateurish, hateful and illegal campaign promises.

What's interesting here is those who came out strongly against the Muslim ban at the time it was first mooted, like McConnell, Ryan and Mattis, but who are staring at their shoes and shuffling their feet right now.  Except Mattis, he was part of the set decoration for the signing ceremony.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Ron Brand on January 29, 2017, 04:15:00 pm
I suspect the heat will get so strong reasonably soon that Bannon will be removed and placed at somewhat of a distance.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: austro on January 29, 2017, 05:10:59 pm
I suspect the heat will get so strong reasonably soon that Bannon will be removed and placed at somewhat of a distance.

I'm not so sure of that. Trump would view that as failure. I expect that he'll double down at that point.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Ron Brand on January 29, 2017, 05:59:53 pm
Oh, I think he'll double down, all right. He'll go as far as he can, but he's going to continue to be met with massive levels of resistance and sacrificing the face of these misfires may buy him some public relief.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Nate Colbert on January 29, 2017, 11:10:03 pm
Interesting article--A Clarifying Moment in American History (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/01/a-clarifying-moment-in-american-history/514868/)--written by a Republican neocon examining Trump's first week in office which then led me down the rabbit hole regards Section 4 of the 25th Amendment.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on January 30, 2017, 08:11:28 am
He's actually only doing what he said that he'd do.

That's a bug, not a feature.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on January 30, 2017, 09:00:00 am
I wonder if he will quit before he gets impeached.  He might conclude that ruling is no fun anymore, or more likely that ruling is hurting his bottom line.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on January 30, 2017, 09:24:23 am
What's interesting here is those who came out strongly against the Muslim ban at the time it was first mooted, like McConnell, Ryan and Mattis, but who are staring at their shoes and shuffling their feet right now. 

What's interesting about political flip-flopping other than it's one of the things about politicians that helped get Trump elected?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on January 31, 2017, 09:51:32 am
What's interesting about political flip-flopping other than it's one of the things about politicians that helped get Trump elected?

Well, if they don't reverse course, it will get them all thrown out.  Trump may not give a shit about the polls and the protests, but rank and file Republicans in the House and Senate should; it's their jobs on the line next year.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on January 31, 2017, 10:38:17 am
Well, if they don't reverse course, it will get them all thrown out.  Trump may not give a shit about the polls and the protests, but rank and file Republicans in the House and Senate should; it's their jobs on the line next year.

They're politicians.  You can be sure they're doing what they think will get themselves re-elected.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on February 02, 2017, 09:29:20 am
He managed to piss off Australia.  AUSTRALIA.

It's like we ordered a President with Richard Nixon's foreign diplomacy skill, and Jimmy Carter's core human decency - and the waiter switched the order.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on February 02, 2017, 11:49:23 am
He managed to piss off Australia.  AUSTRALIA.

It's like we ordered a President with Richard Nixon's foreign diplomacy skill, and Jimmy Carter's core human decency - and the waiter switched the order.

Australia, along with Iraq (who he has supremely pissed off), are two of our biggest allies actually fighting against ISIS. What a fucking lunatic. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Navin R Johnson on February 02, 2017, 01:18:14 pm
Yeah, who cares though, LIBRUL TEARS are more important that anything to the AmericaLast lunatics that back this nutcase.

I love their bitching about the millions of protesters against this orange idiot. too.   Weird, was only a few years ago they all thought protesting was very patriotic when the Tea party was doing it....really strange.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on February 02, 2017, 01:41:08 pm
Turnbull is what in Australia passes for a rightwing nutcase so you'd think there might be some simpatico there somewhere.

I also like how the people most offended by objections to the ban don't seem to have any idea what the ban actually does.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on February 02, 2017, 01:47:37 pm
Turnbull is what in Australia passes for a rightwing nutcase so you'd think there might be some simpatico there somewhere.

I also like how the people most offended by objections to the ban don't seem to have any idea what the ban actually does.

According to Trump it keeps "illegal aliens" away. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on February 02, 2017, 02:07:59 pm
According to Trump it keeps "illegal aliens" away.

If that's what he thinks then he doesn't know what it does, either. Which I do not doubt.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on February 02, 2017, 02:28:16 pm
If that's what he thinks then he doesn't know what it does, either. Which I do not doubt.

Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
Do you believe it? The Obama Administration agreed to take thousands of illegal immigrants from Australia. Why? I will study this dumb deal! (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-02/trump-slams-dumb-refugee-deal/8235820)
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on February 02, 2017, 02:55:14 pm
I'm convinced that when he encouraged McConnell to "go nuclear", he thought that meant actually using nuclear weapons on Democrats.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on February 02, 2017, 03:07:43 pm
I'm convinced that when he encouraged McConnell to "go nuclear", he thought that meant actually using nuclear weapons on Democrats.

Secretary Perry, put down that corn dog and get over here!
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on February 02, 2017, 06:01:35 pm
I'm convinced that when he encouraged McConnell to "go nuclear", he thought that meant actually using nuclear weapons on Democrats.
Or maybe his brain is simply being controlled by communistic alien robot slugs with poor impulse control and an odd case of Tourette's

Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on February 02, 2017, 06:04:58 pm
Or maybe his brain is simply being controlled by communistic alien robot slugs with poor impulse control and an odd case of Tourette's

That would be an improvement.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Phil_in_CS on February 06, 2017, 01:31:27 pm
Or maybe his brain is simply being controlled by communistic alien robot slugs with poor impulse control and an odd case of Tourette's

That's been Bloom County's storyline for a couple weeks.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on February 10, 2017, 02:53:23 pm
So, when the nth court in a row rules against Trump's Muslim ban, he tweets - in all caps - "see you in court."

I have a number of opinions about Trump: how he's not a good businessman; how he's a sociopath and a narcissist; how he's an abuser.  But I never considered him flat-out stupid.  Well, now I do.

It all fits.  The lazy intellect, the 5th grade vocabulary, the lack of focus and concentration, the inability to articulate thoughts and concepts coherently.  All of it.  His White House leaks like a sieve, which many attribute to the horror being induced in career civil servants when they see Trump in action.  Everything is being dumbed down for him.  Memos cannot be more than one page; they must have bullet points, but no more than 9; he will change the subject when he realizes he's asked a stupid question of a staffer and prefers to lean on Bannon and Kushner to give him answers.  He put Putin on hold because he had to ask what START was (even though he's previously condemned it as being terrible).

He's a hateful, arrogant Chauncey Gardiner.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on February 10, 2017, 03:11:24 pm
So, when the nth court in a row rules against Trump's Muslim ban, he tweets - in all caps - "see you in court."

I have a number of opinions about Trump: how he's not a good businessman; how he's a sociopath and a narcissist; how he's an abuser.  But I never considered him flat-out stupid.  Well, now I do.

It all fits.  The lazy intellect, the 5th grade vocabulary, the lack of focus and concentration, the inability to articulate thoughts and concepts coherently.  All of it.  His White House leaks like a sieve, which many attribute to the horror being induced in career civil servants when they see Trump in action.  Everything is being dumbed down for him.  Memos cannot be more than one page; they must have bullet points, but no more than 9; he will change the subject when he realizes he's asked a stupid question of a staffer and prefers to lean on Bannon and Kushner to give him answers.  He put Putin on hold because he had to ask what START was (even though he's previously condemned it as being terrible).

He's a hateful, arrogant Chauncey Gardiner.

And yet, he turned a nice sized family real estate business into an empire and himself into a billionaire.  Built himself a massive media presence.  And then became President of the United States.  Say what you want or think what you want, he's figured out how to get everything he's wanted.  No matter what I think of him or what he does I don't doubt he'll continue to get what he wants.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on February 10, 2017, 03:29:13 pm
And yet, he turned a nice sized family real estate business into an empire and himself into a billionaire.  Built himself a massive media presence.  And then became President of the United States.  Say what you want or think what you want, he's figured out how to get everything he's wanted.  No matter what I think of him or what he does I don't doubt he'll continue to get what he wants.

Do you really think he's got what he wants?  Does he seem like a happy, satisfied person?  As a real estate "mogul", he's toxic to Wall Street such that he is in hock up to his eyeballs to unsavory characters, including numerous Russian oligarchs - this is why he won't let anyone see his tax returns and cannot divest his business - even if he wanted to - as there'd be nothing to take out.  Why did he start Trump University to rip of students for a few thousand dollars a time?  He's underwater, living on cash flow.

His business, of late, has been in franchising the brand name "Trump".  But now he's in the process of destroying the value of that brand (and derivatives thereof).  How is that good business?  He starts a Twitter spat with Nordstrom and their stock price goes up while people flock to the store to show their support with consumer dollars.

He ran for President as the ultimate grift, but he is way out of his depth.  There are real things to do and real consequences for getting them wrong.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Ron Brand on February 10, 2017, 06:40:57 pm
So, when the nth court in a row rules against Trump's Muslim ban, he tweets - in all caps - "see you in court."

I don't think any of the court decisions have been on the merits of what he's wanted, rather the way he went about implementing it. The real meat of the case is going to come later and will take a while to get through the system.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Navin R Johnson on February 11, 2017, 01:02:52 am
And yet, he turned a nice sized family real estate business into an empire and himself into a billionaire.  Built himself a massive media presence.  And then became President of the United States.  Say what you want or think what you want, he's figured out how to get everything he's wanted.  No matter what I think of him or what he does I don't doubt he'll continue to get what he wants.

Kinda like Bruce Jenner, except she can't use the ladies room in North Carolina.

Trump is a fucking disaster and beyond an embarrassment, I'm not sure how any sane person can't see that. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Lefty on February 11, 2017, 03:49:29 am
And yet, he turned a nice sized family real estate business into an empire and himself into a billionaire.  Built himself a massive media presence.  And then became President of the United States.  Say what you want or think what you want, he's figured out how to get everything he's wanted.  No matter what I think of him or what he does I don't doubt he'll continue to get what he wants.
As a self-promoter and bullshit artist, he is indeed quite talented.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: moriartp on February 11, 2017, 08:10:37 am


And yet, he turned a nice sized family real estate business into an empire and himself into a billionaire.  Built himself a massive media presence.  And then became President of the United States.  Say what you want or think what you want, he's figured out how to get everything he's wanted.  No matter what I think of him or what he does I don't doubt he'll continue to get what he wants.

He's a billionaire? Seems like it'd be really easy for him to prove that. And yet.

He's nothing but a petty, entitled, spoiled brat. The sad fools who voted for him are in for a rude awakening. He'll fuck you over just like he's done to everyone else in his life.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on February 11, 2017, 09:40:40 am
I don't think any of the court decisions have been on the merits of what he's wanted, rather the way he went about implementing it. The real meat of the case is going to come later and will take a while to get through the system.

Of course, which is one of the reasons why pre-blaming Judge Robart for a future terror attack is so evil.  The ban was so amateurish, and the grandstanding about it so blatant, that the order was never going to pass a constitutional challenge.  If the threat is so real and present, then the Trump administration needed to take more seriously the job of crafting the order.

But the TRO and its upholding on appeal is based, partly, on the courts' belief that the case itself has merit.  Still a long way to go, but that's a strong indicator that it will lose in the end.  And we get the comedy theater of depositions in the meantime. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on February 11, 2017, 09:45:27 am

He's a billionaire? Seems like it'd be really easy for him to prove that. And yet.

He's nothing but a petty, entitled, spoiled brat. The sad fools who voted for him are in for a rude awakening. He'll fuck you over just like he's done to everyone else in his life.

He already has.  His very first executive order was to roll back a rate reduction on mortgage insurance that will make buying lower valued houses more expensive.  That, of course, means that more low/middle income families will have to stay in rental accommodation, which is a boon for real estate magnates. 
Title: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: geezerdonk on February 11, 2017, 10:43:43 am
Virtue preening rapidly approaching critical mass.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on February 11, 2017, 11:14:28 am
It's getting very serious.  After the election, and after  all the intelligence agencies fingered Russia for trying to affect the election, Obama imposed sanctions by way of kicking out a bunch of diplomats.  Everybody waited for a response by Russia but, after a couple of days, Putin announced that there would be no response.  Trump's then campaign employee and future National Security Advisor, Mike Flynn, was known to have communicated with the Russian Ambassador during those intervening days.  Flynn, Spicer and, notably, Pence, have all gone on record as denying that the sanctions were discussed by the two.

Ironically, NSA Flynn didn't realize that the U.S. monitors communications made by Russian officials.  It's now being reported, by the Washington Post and NY Times with both claiming multiple strong sources, that the sanctions were most definitely discussed by the two.  Flynn wasn't representing the U.S. at that time, so any such discussions were illegal.  So he definitely lied about something very serious, and either duped Spicer and Pence or they lied too.  So Flynn committed a crime and it's possible that the Trump administration tried to cover it up (which is always worse).

Perhaps more disturbingly, though, Flynn is also known to have had communications with the Russian Ambassador during the campaign, before the election.  No reporting yet about what was the nature of those exchanges, but we now know that the campaign that was the intended beneficiary of Russia's meddling was communicating with Russia in a manner that was intended to be secret. 

I don't know the formal definition of what constitutes a "high crime", but this would seem to be the sort of thing that should fit.  #WhatDidHeKnow #WhenDidHeKnowIt

Here's a [trigger warning] Rachel Maddow piece (http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/magnitude-of-trump-adviser-flynn-s-russia-scandal-gains-clarity-874908739801) on the subject.  IMHO, this is Rachel at her best*, consolidating and condensing disparate news down to its core meaning.

* It also shows Rachel at her worst: trying to draw a tortured analogy to a spillway sinkhole in CA because she wanted to get both stories in. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on February 15, 2017, 04:04:38 pm
So Flynn's gone, not because he did anything illegal (he did), but because there was an erosion of trust.  Well, considering former Acting AG Sally Yates (the one Trump fired for upholding the constitution) told the White House in January that Flynn had lied about not discussing sanctions and that he was now compromised and open to blackmail by the Russians because, of course, they knew he was lying because they were on the other side of the calls.

Despite the seriousness of this situation, Trump did nothing.  He only pushed out Flynn once the story broke in the press, and then went on a twitter rant about the leaks from the intelligence community and how that's the real problem.  He even referenced North Korea as something he has to deal with, apparently failing to see the irony given his impromptu, open-air situation room meeting about the missile launch surrounded by various high-paying guests and unvetted foreign workers at Mar a Lago that was Facebook Lived while the guests posed with the guy carrying the nuclear football, posting his picture and name online for all to see.

Oh, and one of his choices for Solicitor General just bailed, as did his choice for Labor Secretary.  And he completely capitulated to China, accepting our "one China" policy without any sort of deal whatsoever, let alone the tremendous deal he promised to extract.  And the wall will cost twice as much and no one knows how it will be paid for.  And an Israeli journalist called him out for racism and xenophobia in a press conference.  And now it seems that his campaign had multiple contacts with Russian intelligence officials during the campaign.  Oh, and his Muslim ban seems to be dying a quiet death now that it's 0-for-everything in court, despite Trump vowing to take the courts to court over their court decisions (try doing that without a Solicitor General).

Honestly, if this is "winning" then Trump was right, I am already sick of it.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on February 15, 2017, 05:00:17 pm
Not only did an Israeli journalist call him out about anti-Semitism, but he "answered" the question by bragging about his Electoral College victory.

He then went on to establish the US position as "one state, two state, whatever makes me happy."  Seriously.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Nate Colbert on February 15, 2017, 05:12:45 pm
Reports today say scumbag owner Jeffrey Loria (with the rumored deal to sell the Marlins to the Kushners) is up for ambassador to France.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on February 15, 2017, 05:51:15 pm
Reports today say scumbag owner Jeffrey Loria (with the rumored deal to sell the Marlins to the Kushners) is up for ambassador to France.

Naturally. Because he showed so much love for French culture in Montreal.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on February 15, 2017, 05:51:20 pm
Not only did an Israeli journalist call him out about anti-Semitism, but he "answered" the question by bragging about his Electoral College victory.

He then went on to establish the US position as "one state, two state, whatever makes me happy."  Seriously.


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Thanks Donald.  I can't wait to explain to my kids next time they have to wait out a bomb threat at the JCC that they should take comfort in the fact he won the 10th lowest electoral college victory in history.  To be fair, the existence of the electoral college is probably the reason that 60 or so JCCs around the country have received bomb threats since the inauguration, but it's certainly not helping anything. 

He then ended his rambling "non-sense" with his version of "some of my best friends are Jews."  What a disgusting idiot.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on February 15, 2017, 05:58:04 pm
And of course he's kicking off his re-election campaign - four weeks into the second worst start to a presidency in US History* -  with a rally in Florida on Saturday.  (http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/trump-rally-melbourne-florida-235061)

*Credit to Trump for not spending his first month in office dying from pneumonia.  William Henry Harrison really set a low floor for presidential debuts. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on February 16, 2017, 06:19:34 am
Thanks Donald.  I can't wait to explain to my kids next time they have to wait out a bomb threat at the JCC that they should take comfort in the fact he won the 10th lowest electoral college victory in history.  To be fair, the existence of the electoral college is probably the reason that 60 or so JCCs around the country have received bomb threats since the inauguration, but it's certainly not helping anything. 

He then ended his rambling "non-sense" with his version of "some of my best friends are Jews."  What a disgusting idiot.

When asked about North Korea, Trump responded "have you seen my penis?  It's tremendous...loved by millions of people...all over the country.  Not every man has what I have...it's very, very unfair really.  But I don't know, what can I say, it's impressive.  Ask Ivanka."
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on February 17, 2017, 01:49:57 pm
Reports today say scumbag owner Jeffrey Loria (with the rumored deal to sell the Marlins to the Kushners) is up for ambassador to France.

The Kushners have clarified that there is no impropriety here.  They have said that they won't buy the Marlins until after Loria is confirmed as Ambassador.  Because then it's all ok, right?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: moriartp on February 17, 2017, 01:53:09 pm
Kushners are apparently out of the running to buy the Fish, but Loria is still talking to other potential buyers. Marlins fans should be excited.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on February 17, 2017, 02:09:18 pm
Kushners are apparently out of the running to buy the Fish, but Loria is still talking to other potential buyers. Marlins fans should be excited.

If they think it can't get any worse they're fooling themselves.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on February 28, 2017, 10:28:57 am
Here's Maddow again (http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/new-commerce-secretary-at-nexus-of-lucrative-trump-russian-deal-886220355575), with one of her patented dot-joining pieces.

1.  Trump buys a Florida ego-palace out of foreclosure for $41mm
2.  Russian oligarch buys same property from Trump for $95mm

Oh, that was easy; a Russian oligarch with close ties to Putin stuffed $54mm into Trump's sky-rocket in plain sight.

But it gets worse: the oligarch never went to the property before, during or after the purchase; the transaction happened while Trump was in desperate trouble over default on payments on loans he had from Deutsche Bank; and that bank has been found guilty and fined heavily for laundering Russian oligarch money.  So Trump owes Russian laundromat Deutsche Bank, he gets a $54mm windfall profit from a Russian for a property neither want and pays off Deutsche.

Legal?  Probably.  Chin-scratchingly suspicious?  Bigly.

But what did the Russians buy with that money?  Well, other than Trump's very public undying love and affection, they bought the man.  Paul Manafort was a big man in Russian politics but anonymous over here, yet he became Trump's campaign chairman even though he and Trump had never met before that appointment.  Carter Page was a big man in Russian politics but anonymous over here, yet he became Trump's foreign policy advisor even though he and Trump had never met before that appointment.  Michael Flynn was considered toxic because of his ties to Russia, Turkey and his very embarrassing ouster from the DIA, yet Trump took him on as NSA anyway only for him to flame out in less than a month.  Rex Tillerson was a big man in Russia (friend of Putin (http://static5.businessinsider.com/image/58505c97ca7f0c8c018b5678-1190-625/a-timeline-of-rex-tillersons-relationship-with-russian-president-vladimir-putin.jpg) and Order of Friendship recipient) but not in politics over here, yet he became Trump's Secretary of State even though he and Trump had never met before that nomination.

Want more?  The chairman of Deutsche Bank was ousted over the whole money laundering thing.  Of course, he didn't go to jail, he got a cushy job at the Bank of Cypress.  Cypress being the place where Russians stash their laundered money.  There's a lot of Russians and their friends in the management hierarchy of that bank, but only one American: a guy called Wilbur Ross.  Sound familiar?  He's the new Commerce Secretary.

When all this ends, the Venn diagram of Russian entanglements will just be a symmetrical stack of rings.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Waldo on February 28, 2017, 11:09:19 am
Even if everything was above board (which is entirely possible), the optics are terrible and they should be doing everything they can to distance themselves from the negative image.  Unless, of course, it wasn't above board.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on February 28, 2017, 11:16:08 am
Even if everything was above board (which is entirely possible), the optics are terrible and they should be doing everything they can to distance themselves from the negative image.  Unless, of course, it wasn't above board.

Nothing to see here... (https://youtu.be/5NNOrp_83RU)
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on February 28, 2017, 11:42:15 am
I saw the Maddow bit and although it is essentially a cluster or disparate matters, when you couple them with Trump's unwavering affection for Vlad, it's hard for me to imagine there isn't something there.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on February 28, 2017, 11:48:00 am
Also, the show brought up the possibility that if Vlad can't get any sweet deals from Donald, due to American politics, he might be predisposed to spill some beans.  In other words, door #1 is easing sanctions, etc. and door #2 is the consolation prize of showing that he fucked with the election and had influence over the winner.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on February 28, 2017, 01:11:38 pm
Also, the show brought up the possibility that if Vlad can't get any sweet deals from Donald, due to American politics, he might be predisposed to spill some beans.  In other words, door #1 is easing sanctions, etc. and door #2 is the consolation prize of showing that he fucked with the election and had influence over the winner.

Yep.  Later in the show it was discussed that the Russians were just trying to hobble the presumptive winner so that she would come into office weakened on the domestic and world stage.  That Trump won was hilarious at first (confirmed by gleeful communications among Russian intelligence folks), but that's since been replaced with a strong case of buyer's remorse as the realization dawns that their Manchurian Candidate is a dangerously unstable, ill-informed, walking bag of orange garbage.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on February 28, 2017, 02:21:11 pm
Yep.  Later in the show it was discussed that the Russians were just trying to hobble the presumptive winner so that she would come into office weakened on the domestic and world stage.  That Trump won was hilarious at first (confirmed by gleeful communications among Russian intelligence folks), but that's since been replaced with a strong case of buyer's remorse as the realization dawns that their Manchurian Candidate is a dangerously unstable, ill-informed, walking bag of orange garbage.

So you're saying that Russian intelligence catches on faster than Trump's base.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on March 01, 2017, 10:44:12 am
Here's the thing that struck me about Trump's "talent-based" immigration system:  if we allow in only skilled workers, they will become instant competition for existing skilled workers in America.   At the same time, if he denies entry to unskilled workers, who will take on unskilled work?   The sons and daughters of unskilled parents will aspire to upward mobility that could be denied to them because Trump has cut off the flow of replacement unskilled immigrant labor that has fueled the economy for centuries (yes, immigrants stimulate the economy).

Basically, last night, Trump announced the end of the American Dream.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: BudGirl on March 01, 2017, 11:02:14 am

Basically, last night, Trump announced the end of the American Dream.

He didn't announce it. the Electoral College did back in November.   

I personally seem to be in a state of apathy over things right now.  As a moderate Democrat, I am having a hard time being optimistic about the future, especially when the future I see seems to be the complete opposite of many in power.  And that is on a federal and state level.   I don't think people know what they truly want, they listen to some talking ahead and think, yeah, I agree with that.  Half the time they don't even know what they are talking about.

I had one friend ask me, "Aren't you tired of paying for everyone?"  I told her, I guess not since I think people still need help.  Not much of response from her after that.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on March 01, 2017, 11:14:11 am
Basically, last night, Trump announced the end of the American Dream.

But he used his inside voice!
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Mr. Happy on March 01, 2017, 12:11:40 pm


I had one friend ask me, "Aren't you tired of paying for everyone?"  I told her, I guess not since I think people still need help.  Not much of response from her after that.

I'll bite. We're not doing people on welfare any favors by killing their will to earn on their own. The welfare state has emasculated western Europe, and we're on the precipice of it. I'm all for helping those who are truly incapable of doing for themselves. But we've let too many freeloaders and grifters into that system.

We destroy their self-preservation instinct, and make them dependent upon that government handout, which is exactly where many Democrats want them. In my opinion, this is immoral and wrong. I know that most of you disagree with that, and I'll be attacked for saying it out loud here.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on March 01, 2017, 12:13:08 pm
I had one friend ask me, "Aren't you tired of paying for everyone?"  I told her, I guess not since I think people still need help.  Not much of response from her after that.

You should start associating with people who possess some basic grasp of economics.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on March 01, 2017, 01:15:15 pm
I'll bite. We're not doing people on welfare any favors by killing their will to earn on their own. The welfare state has emasculated western Europe, and we're on the precipice of it. I'm all for helping those who are truly incapable of doing for themselves. But we've let too many freeloaders and grifters into that system.

We destroy their self-preservation instinct, and make them dependent upon that government handout, which is exactly where many Democrats want them. In my opinion, this is immoral and wrong. I know that most of you disagree with that, and I'll be attacked for saying it out loud here.

Attacked?  What are you, a snowflake?

Seriously, isn't this the same argument made in the 80s and 90s, before welfare reform?  Are there still really a lot of people who aspire to remain on welfare? 

Also, saying that having people dependent on the government is what Democrats want is so weak: I know lots of Democrats and have never heard that sentiment expressed.  Not once actually.   
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Mr. Happy on March 01, 2017, 01:54:53 pm
Attacked?  What are you, a snowflake?

Seriously, isn't this the same argument made in the 80s and 90s, before welfare reform?  Are there still really a lot of people who aspire to remain on welfare? 

Also, saying that having people dependent on the government is what Democrats want is so weak: I know lots of Democrats and have never heard that sentiment expressed.  Not once actually.

People too often become complacent and accept the status quo. There's nothing better than a little personal motivation.

Democrats frequently fight that argument because it makes them look badly. However, their actions belie the truth, which is that most of their legislative efforts are designed to do exactly that. So it really isn't weak. I'm no snowflake either. I just know you people and how you are going to respond. You'd be surprised at the private messages I get from people who agree with me but who are too frightened of being attacked by you all to express their support. They see how you treat me and others who deign to disagree with you all.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: BudGirl on March 01, 2017, 02:06:06 pm
People too often become complacent and accept the status quo. There's nothing better than a little personal motivation.

Democrats frequently fight that argument because it makes them look badly. However, their actions belie the truth, which is that most of their legislative efforts are designed to do exactly that. So it really isn't weak. I'm no snowflake either. I just know you people and how you are going to respond. You'd be surprised at the private messages I get from people who agree with me but who are too frightened of being attacked by you all to express their support. They see how you treat me and others who deign to disagree with you all.

And Republicans just want to help big business.  Too big to fail.  My ass.  The greedy bastards take advantage of what they can and then the little guy pays for it.  That bail out of banks and whatnot by W pissed me off because they were too big to fail and would hurt the economy.  Well, guess what, it did hurt the economy.  Where's your reform for that?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Nate Colbert on March 01, 2017, 02:08:02 pm
You'd be surprised at the private messages I get from people who agree with me but who are too frightened of being attacked by you all to express their support. They see how you treat me and others who deign to disagree with you all.

Weren't you the one who first started throwing out the snowflake label? So who exactly is attacking whom?

Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on March 01, 2017, 02:45:22 pm
In my opinion, this is immoral and wrong.

I agree that your opinion is wrong, as in it is not based on actual facts. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Mr. Happy on March 01, 2017, 03:28:04 pm
Weren't you the one who first started throwing out the snowflake label? So who exactly is attacking whom?

I did toss out the snowflake label because I love to have fun with you knuckleheads! I can take it, but there are some folks out there who are scared of you folks and simply stay silent.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Navin R Johnson on March 01, 2017, 03:29:27 pm
Weren't you the one who first started throwing out the snowflake label? So who exactly is attacking whom?

One of my favorite tactics, it is the Democrats fault, even when a Republican is the one doing it.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Mr. Happy on March 01, 2017, 03:32:50 pm
And Republicans just want to help big business.  Too big to fail.  My ass.  The greedy bastards take advantage of what they can and then the little guy pays for it.  That bail out of banks and whatnot by W pissed me off because they were too big to fail and would hurt the economy.  Well, guess what, it did hurt the economy.  Where's your reform for that?

I didn't like the bailout as much as you didn't. I would have allowed some of those poorly run banks to fail. Remember that I'm not a Republican; I am a constitutional conservative. Believe it or not, I was disappointed in President Trump's big government embrace in the SOTU last night. I don't think that's why he got elected. In my opinion, he got elected to change how the government is run, which includes shrinking the size of government and restoring some personal liberty.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Mr. Happy on March 01, 2017, 03:35:04 pm
I agree that your opinion is wrong, as in it is not based on actual facts.

We'll have to agree to disagree. The facts are clear and immutable. Democrats created the welfare state and practically every expansion of it save the Medicare prescription drug addition that the scourge President Bush 43 championed.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on March 01, 2017, 03:54:49 pm
I didn't like the bailout as much as you didn't. I would have allowed some of those poorly run banks to fail. Remember that I'm not a Republican; I am a constitutional conservative. Believe it or not, I was disappointed in President Trump's big government embrace in the SOTU last night. I don't think that's why he got elected. In my opinion, he got elected to change how the government is run, which includes shrinking the size of government and restoring some personal liberty.

This is what confuses me... because nothing the President said last night was one iota different than the positions he campaigned on.

You are a constitutional conservative championing a President who believes in neither the Constitution nor conservatism.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on March 01, 2017, 04:02:34 pm
I'll bite. We're not doing people on welfare any favors by killing their will to earn on their own. The welfare state has emasculated western Europe, and we're on the precipice of it. I'm all for helping those who are truly incapable of doing for themselves. But we've let too many freeloaders and grifters into that system.

We destroy their self-preservation instinct, and make them dependent upon that government handout, which is exactly where many Democrats want them. In my opinion, this is immoral and wrong. I know that most of you disagree with that, and I'll be attacked for saying it out loud here.

When conservative politicians refer to welfare recipients as freeloaders and grifters, I assume it's entirely projection.  Over 60% of food stamp recipients are working (and over 40% are white).  Paul Ryan received social security survivor benefits that allowed him to go to college (back when it was affordable). 

Reagan's welfare queen was a myth.  Widespread welfare abuse is a myth.  People choosing welfare over employment is a myth.  Yes, there may be isolated cases, but the very, very few anecdotal examples is statistically irrelevant and by no means something on which to base social policy. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on March 01, 2017, 04:22:56 pm
When conservative politicians refer to welfare recipients as freeloaders and grifters, I assume it's entirely projection.  Over 60% of food stamp recipients are working (and over 40% are white).  Paul Ryan received social security survivor benefits that allowed him to go to college (back when it was affordable). 

Reagan's welfare queen was a myth.  Widespread welfare abuse is a myth.  People choosing welfare over employment is a myth.  Yes, there may be isolated cases, but the very, very few anecdotal examples is statistically irrelevant and by no means something on which to base social policy.

Right.  This notion that people are lazy and are happy to be on welfare is a myth.  The percentage of people who receive welfare while working is closer to 70-75%.  The other obvious false projection is that people somehow thrive on welfare when in reality they barely survive.  I highly doubt that any of these conservatives (who aren't on welfare themselves, and yes the "red" states receive a disproportionately greater amount of federal benefits than the "blue" states) would trade financial statements with these so called free-loaders who are somehow living high on the hog from welfare.  Hell, TANF by its own terms doesn't allow benefits for more than 5 years out of someone's entire life, and is predicated on the notion that the working poor sometimes need some temporary assistance to be financially stable. Finally, safety net programs are only 10% of the federal budget.  BG's friend complaining about taxes "paying for everyone else" is just completely insane, and obviously ignores the plethora of benefits that person receives from the federal government simply by virtue of being an American. 

Finally, what any of this has to do with "personal liberty" is completely beyond me.  People who are working their asses off just to feed their children and need a little help to get that done are not sacrificing their liberty in order to stay alive.  They are just staying alive.  Any conservatives want to complain about a self-preservation instinct?  Shit, I'm sure you wouldn't be happy with their self-preservation instinct if they had to turn to crime to make up the shortfall left by taking away the meager welfare benefits they can get.

Mr. Happy - your views on welfare are not based upon anyone's reality, especially the people whose reality requires those problems simply to keep themselves and their children alive.  The only "immoral" view being presented here is that people who need welfare to survive are simply not worthy of existence. Nobody on welfare wants to be on welfare. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Ty in Tampa on March 01, 2017, 05:09:56 pm
Nobody on welfare wants to be on welfare. 

Unless you're a multi-billion-dollar corporation.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on March 01, 2017, 07:03:06 pm
This weekend I read the goddamn son-of-a-bitch ordered his steak well-done, and then ate it doused with catsup! Fuck him. Some shit just ain't right!
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on March 01, 2017, 08:02:11 pm
This weekend I read the goddamn son-of-a-bitch ordered his steak well-done, and then ate it doused with catsup! Fuck him. Some shit just ain't right!

"No... hell no. A man could get his ass kicked, sayin' something like that."


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on March 02, 2017, 07:10:53 am
"I did not have international relations with that country" - Jefferson Beauregard Sessions


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on March 02, 2017, 09:27:54 am
"I did not have international relations with that country" - Jefferson Beauregard Sessions


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It takes a lot of wordsmithing to get his testimony out of outright perjury and into the general realm of misleading. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on March 02, 2017, 12:05:35 pm
It takes a lot of wordsmithing to get his testimony out of outright perjury and into the general realm of misleading.

“I have no doubt that perjury qualifies under the Constitution as a high crime. It goes to the heart of the judicial system” - Jeff Sessions.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on March 02, 2017, 12:10:43 pm
The only "immoral" view being presented here is that people who need welfare to survive are simply not worthy of existence. Nobody on welfare wants to be on welfare.

"I've been on food stamps.  I've been on welfare.  Did anyone help me out?  No!"
 - Craig T. Nelson (https://youtu.be/yTwpBLzxe4U), missing the point by a country mile.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Phil_in_CS on March 02, 2017, 02:06:48 pm
It takes a lot of wordsmithing to get his testimony out of outright perjury and into the general realm of misleading.

As I read what he testified and read his response, he sounded like Bill Clinton parsing what the definition of "is" is.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on March 02, 2017, 02:23:35 pm
"I've been on food stamps.  I've been on welfare.  Did anyone help me out?  No!"
 - Craig T. Nelson (https://youtu.be/yTwpBLzxe4U), missing the point by a country mile.

That's up there with:

"Flat Earth Society...we have members around the globe!"
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on March 06, 2017, 10:42:17 am
So, the week in which our President was hailed as presidential because he managed to read a ghost-written speech using his inside voice, that said all the same things he's been saying for years while ignoring all the things he's been ignoring for years - plus using a combat widow as a human shield against the scandal of the botched raid in which her husband was killed - we ended up with him accusing the outgoing President of violating the Constitution.  It was done in perhaps the most Trumpian way possible: he tweeted out an unsubstantiated, right-wing conspiracy theory from Breitbart regarding said constitutional violation, then tweeted an insult to Arnold Schwartzeneggar, then went golfing.  Because...leadership?

Back-chatter from his sieve-like White House reported that Trump was spitting mad that Sessions had recused himself from the barest minimum of an investigation that he is in the thick of.  So mad, it seems, that Trump kicked Bannon and Priebus off Air Force One - taking its 6th, $3mm tax payer funded trip to Mar a Lago of Trump's less than two month old term of office - so that they both had to make their own way to Florida (at additional expense to tax payers).  This was a bad idea, because there's a slight possibility that one of them may have saved Trump from the giant train coming down the tracks at him from the moment he tapped "Tweet" on his ancient, security-free Android phone.

You see, Obama had no authority to wiretap (only one "p" Donald) a U.S. citizen on American soil.  There is no evidence that he did, and it's kind of hard to think that he may have done this when you consider that, two months before the election, he had evidence that the Russians were trying to throw the game for Trump and decided to sit on it as it was too politically inflammatory.  That leaves Obama's motivation for tapping Trump to be for his own personal shits and giggles.  Conversely, if there was a tap of Trump, or his campaign, it was because a Federal judge had been presented with evidence of wrongdoing strong enough to suggest that a wiretap was justified.  If that's true, the actual story is that we now all want to know WTF the Feds have on Trump!

So, either there's sufficient evidence to justify a wiretap of Trump, or he's suffering a epic public meltdown.  Good times!
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Navin R Johnson on March 06, 2017, 10:57:14 am
Drumpf going to Florida to work doesn't bother me nearly as much as the fact that he is using tax money to fund his hotel.  That and the fact that Trump was tirggered over and over and over about Obama playing golf, and now he is playing 20 times more golf than BO.   Of course every day and round he spends at Mar Lago, is lining his pockets.   DRAIN THE SWAMP is so 2016.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on March 06, 2017, 11:25:53 am
Drumpf going to Florida to work doesn't bother me nearly as much as the fact that he is using tax money to fund his hotel.  That and the fact that Trump was tirggered over and over and over about Obama playing golf, and now he is playing 20 times more golf than BO.   Of course every day and round he spends at Mar Lago, is lining his pockets.   DRAIN THE SWAMP is so 2016.

The cost of travel for the Obamas over 8 years was just under $100mm.  The cost of moving just Trump - i.e. not including the costs incurred when Melania or the kids travel - was $10mm for his first month in office.

The hypocrisy is staggering, but not out of character.  However, at some point, a fiscally conservative Congress has to take issue with it...right?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: homer on March 06, 2017, 11:38:53 am
Is it cathartic for you to drag the left wing talking points into a personal summary each week? Are the 'attaboys' from MM, Bench, and the rest of the gang what gets you through the week?

Also, how is that you take these talking points and overall narrative at face value without even a hint of skepticism? Why would you rely on the same people that lied to you about Trump's doomed campaign and certain humiliating defeat?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on March 06, 2017, 01:04:16 pm
Why would you rely on the same people that lied to you about Trump's doomed campaign and certain humiliating defeat?

1. Reporters are different than commentators.
2. Even if they were the same, I don't understand this perspective. If a play by play announcer got his season predictions wrong, would that me he could not accurately tell you what is occurring on the field?


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on March 06, 2017, 01:06:07 pm
In unrelated news, David Duke has been banned from Twitter.

I'm old enough to remember when Duke would win in March.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: homer on March 06, 2017, 01:16:54 pm
2. Even if they were the same, I don't understand this perspective. If a play by play announcer got his season predictions wrong, would that me he could not accurately tell you what is occurring on the field?

I deny the premise that the media (any of them, in any form, from any outlet, regarding any topic) is similar to a 'play by play' announcer.

Regardless, whether it's Heyman or Ashby, or anyone in between, OWA doesn't always (ever?) trust them to accurately represent even the very thing they are looking at. The regulars on OWA apply the highest order of scrutiny for every word uttered about the Astros. It's like 90% of what goes on at this site.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on March 06, 2017, 01:23:09 pm
Regardless, whether it's Heyman or Ashby, or anyone in between, OWA doesn't always (ever?) trust them to accurately represent even the very thing they are looking at. The regulars on OWA apply the highest order of scrutiny for every word uttered about the Astros. It's like 90% of what goes on at this site.

Actually closer to 87%.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on March 06, 2017, 01:24:53 pm
Actually closer to 87%.

Fucking statgeeks.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on March 06, 2017, 02:33:00 pm
Is it cathartic for you to drag the left wing talking points into a personal summary each week? Are the 'attaboys' from MM, Bench, and the rest of the gang what gets you through the week?

Also, how is that you take these talking points and overall narrative at face value without even a hint of skepticism? Why would you rely on the same people that lied to you about Trump's doomed campaign and certain humiliating defeat?

Trump was doomed to certain and humiliating defeat; Clinton was polling at a national average of +6% which historically translates to Reaganesque landslides.  Then, 10 days before the election, Director Comey said he'd found more emails.  Clinton dropped 4% overnight and never recovered.  Trump said nothing but the word "emails" for the next 10 days.  Comey said there's nothing there, there on the Sunday night before the election, and Clinton won the national vote by about +2%.  The polls were accurate.

Meanwhile, the "left-wing talking points" are actually corroborated news items from multiple sources in the mainstream media.  I know that the MSM is mistrusted by many on the right as it challenges the carefully crafted right wing narrative that America is "The Purge" and only Muslims are allowed guns, but that does not mean that facts aren't facts.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: homer on March 06, 2017, 02:48:04 pm
The MSM is mistrusted because they are not trustworthy. This has been demonstrated over, and over, and over again- long before whatever 'carefully crafted right wing narrative' you are referring to.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on March 06, 2017, 02:57:44 pm
The MSM is mistrusted because they are not trustworthy. This has been demonstrated over, and over, and over again- long before whatever 'carefully crafted right wing narrative' you are referring to.

Chicken - Egg.

The MSM is like the dog in "Up" (they spent the weekend chasing Trump's wiretap squirrel, for example), but that does not mean that everything they all do is wrong/biased.  You (and many other people) are conflating factual journalism with op-eds; just because you disagree with the latter does not mean that the former becomes discounted.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on March 06, 2017, 03:06:43 pm
"Factual journalism" is a misnomer. There's journalism and then there's everything else.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on March 06, 2017, 03:29:50 pm
"Factual journalism" is a misnomer. There's journalism and then there's everything else.

And journalism is a competitive industry that is shape shifting as new media outlets develop, it is driven by sales/ratings/circulations and any purity is corupted by editing and points of view. Mass Communications 101.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on March 06, 2017, 03:52:14 pm
Is it really that hard to sift facts out?  Do people still struggle with crowd size, illegal voters, bussed-in voters, crime by immigrants, the Bowling Green terrorist, the "wires tapped" by Obama, and on and on and fucking on.  He's a disgrace and people who'd rather question the press/MSM to defend his pervasive bullshitting are just as guilty.  Talking points my ass, this dumbshit writes the script.

Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on March 06, 2017, 04:05:04 pm
Also, how is that you take these talking points and overall narrative at face value without even a hint of skepticism? Why would you rely on the same people that lied to you about Trump's doomed campaign and certain humiliating defeat?

What specific items are you disputing?

Also "lie" is a bit rich for a wrong prediction, and paints with far too broadly a brush.  A lie is, oh, jbm just did a nice list of examples in the post immediately  before this.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on March 06, 2017, 04:33:47 pm
Also "lie" is a bit rich for a wrong prediction

Speak for yourself. I'm looking forward to a big fat "FAKE NEWS" banner on all of my Wild Ass Guesses in the previews.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: BudGirl on March 06, 2017, 04:44:15 pm
Speak for yourself. I'm looking forward to a big fat "FAKE NEWS" banner on all of my Wild Ass Guesses in the previews.


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That makes me want to write a recap just to call you a liar (if wrong, if right I'll just ignore you).
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Phil_in_CS on March 12, 2017, 12:37:08 pm
The only poll I pay attention to is the Five Thirty Eight poll and right now it has her at 66 to 33. She is in fact pulling away, at least for the moment.

By the way, I don't think Trump's support always and necessarily equates to a hatred of Hillary. Obviously forty something percent of voters will vote for the Republican regardless of who he or she is. Some similar percentage of voters will support the Democrat. I don't think the polarization has anything to do in particular with either candidate.

To his credit, Nate Silver of Five Thirty Eight has been doing an excellent review of why they got it so very wrong.  Here is the most recent article, "There really was a Liberal Media Bubble" the 9th in the series.  https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/there-really-was-a-liberal-media-bubble/

The entire series is worth a read.

Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on March 13, 2017, 08:43:02 am
Thanks for the link.  I've only had time to read this one and enjoyed the "Wisdom of the Crowds" discussion.  With regard to that, I suspect it is nearly impossible to modify the independence factor, at least with the simple call to contrarianism that Silver mentions.  Too many people are lazy thinkers, mainly because there are no consequences for their lazy thinking.  I'm not sure how society changes that.  I know I spent years gambling at the horsetrack and putting your money where your lazy ass mind is, is a sure way to address the issue while bailing out banks who lost big on their bets is a sure way to perpetuate lazy thinking.

At any rate, while all the discussion about the press is interesting and insightful, predicting the outcome of the election is basically a mathematical issue and a complicated one for the brain to adequately capture.  Both the press and mathematically bent pollsters had trouble with the prediction.  Their mistake was related to modelling passion, or lack thereof in certain states, which made the made the models suspect in those states, which in turn made the national models suspect. 

The press might have biases, but I'm not holding the election predictions against them; I'm holding it against the modelers/predictors.  In other words, if the modelers had been giving Trump a better chance (if their state models had predicted turnout in the Midwest differently), then the press would have reported it as such, even while possessing the structural failings mentioned in the article.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on March 13, 2017, 11:15:13 am
Here's a graphic (http://election.princeton.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/comey_effect_relabeled3.jpg) of the "Comey Effect" on the national polls.  That one act wiped out Clinton's lead at a stroke and, while there was a marginal recovery prior to election day, there was a ton of early voting going on during that period.  The retraction by Comey on the Sunday night before the election was pointless (as so much damage had been done already) and timed to be as invisible as possible.

It's also important to note that, at the time Comey released his statement about the nothing that was emails on Huma Abedin's laptop, he was also in possession of evidence showing that Russia was attempting to influence the election in Trump's favor and that Trump's people had been in contact with Russian officials.  Of those two bits of inflammatory news, he decided to release only one - the infinitely less real and important one.

There was so much wrong with the campaigns and so much wrong with the coverage of the campaigns; but this one act by the FBI Director was completely unnecessary and completely devastating to the Clinton campaign.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Phil_in_CS on March 13, 2017, 11:55:55 am
One thing I've not had explained to me well is how they can still get an accurate representative sample when everyone has caller ID and few will take calls from unknown callers. There's obviously a way to do it - Silver points out that the polls were in general accurate if you look at the late ones (during the voting period). Where they were wrong they were within the margin of error. I had enough stats in college 35 years ago to understand how that's calculated, but the key to a poll is to get a sample that represents the full population. That was easier to understand when random people would answer the phone and talk to whoever called, but that's no longer the case.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on March 14, 2017, 01:59:12 pm
One thing I've not had explained to me well is how they can still get an accurate representative sample when everyone has caller ID and few will take calls from unknown callers. There's obviously a way to do it - Silver points out that the polls were in general accurate if you look at the late ones (during the voting period). Where they were wrong they were within the margin of error. I had enough stats in college 35 years ago to understand how that's calculated, but the key to a poll is to get a sample that represents the full population. That was easier to understand when random people would answer the phone and talk to whoever called, but that's no longer the case.

Old people still answer phones and old people vote.  The under 35s will screen calls and were - as usual - mostly absent in the last election.  Ironically, the under 35s is one of the few groups to benefit from the AHCA; them and the 1%ers.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Phil_in_CS on March 15, 2017, 08:25:33 am
Old people still answer phones and old people vote.  The under 35s will screen calls and were - as usual - mostly absent in the last election.  Ironically, the under 35s is one of the few groups to benefit from the AHCA; them and the 1%ers.

I guess, but the key thing is that the sample must be representative of the whole, and the old folks will vote differently that the young. That seemed to be the pattern in the Brexit vote for sure. Your use of "under 35s" as a cut off is wrong. I'm 53 and there's no way I'm taking an unknown caller. They're managing the problem somehow - the better run polls were accurate to within the margin of error. Silver's main complaint is that while the polls showed it very tight and breaking for Trump late, the media would still pushing the "She's a lock" narrative. That might have hampered Clinton's turnout and helped Trump's. Hard to know what all was happening. As humans, we tend to look for "an" easy answer and the reality is usually dozens of small partial answers.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on March 23, 2017, 02:53:26 pm
House GOP cancels vote on repeal/replace. (http://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/trump-freedom-caucus-health-care-236418) The dicksteppery is blinding.

Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on March 23, 2017, 05:26:41 pm
I haven't really been following this, but the Freedom Caucus, whoever they are, their main complaint with this wealth redistribution bill masquerading as a health care act is that it doesn't suck nearly enough? They're hell bent on doing away with the preexisting conditions protection? Really?

I know that Republicans have been disinclined of late to participate in town hall meetings in their respective districts but surely they already know that the toothless pigfuckers they represent are fairly likely to come up against a preexisting condition.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Nate in IA on March 23, 2017, 10:52:00 pm
Here in Iowa we have had town hall meetings with our Republican representatives.   The people have been generally antagonistic but respectful so there is a good sense that we are getting back to representative democracy.   I believe the election has done more to get people energized than most would care to admit.   Trump is merely the harbinger of getting us back to states rights as above the federal monstrosity.   He will not be able to drain the swamp but it remains to be seen whether he can back fill it.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on March 24, 2017, 08:46:53 am
House GOP cancels vote on repeal/replace. (http://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/trump-freedom-caucus-health-care-236418) The dicksteppery is blinding.

Apparently late last night, Trump ordered the House to go ahead and hold the vote, so naturally the House sheepishly lowered their heads and said "yes sir."  They'll go ahead with the vote today.  Trump wants it, so I can't imagine the GOP sacking up and the bill not passing. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on March 24, 2017, 09:15:20 am
Apparently late last night, Trump ordered the House to go ahead and hold the vote, so naturally the House sheepishly lowered their heads and said "yes sir."  They'll go ahead with the vote today.  Trump wants it, so I can't imagine the GOP sacking up and the bill not passing.

Even if they have it, the bill as it currently stands is doomed in the Senate. And whatever the Senate comes up with will be doomed in the House. A governing party they ain't. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on March 24, 2017, 11:18:40 am
Even if they have it, the bill as it currently stands is doomed in the Senate. And whatever the Senate comes up with will be doomed in the House. A governing party they ain't.

Trump has now said he will not sign any other form of repeal or replacement bill.  This is the GOPs one shot at repealing the ACA, either pass this one, or else nothing.  Master negotiator, that one is. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on March 24, 2017, 03:09:49 pm
And now the GOP has about faced again and completely pulled the bill from consideration.  Amateur hour. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on March 24, 2017, 05:42:43 pm
And now the GOP has about faced again and completely pulled the bill from consideration.  Amateur hour.

The one saving grace of this government is its abject incompetence.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on March 24, 2017, 06:30:52 pm
The one saving grace of this government is its abject incompetence.


That government is best which spends the least possible energy governing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: austro on March 24, 2017, 07:06:17 pm
And to top it off, the Master Negotiator now says that he never said he was going to get rid of Obamacare immediately. Now, with somebody who wasn't a total dick, I'd cut some slack and say that even if you get it done within a year, that would probably qualify as "immediately", given all of the challenges involved. But he's a total dick, so he doesn't get any slack. And his enablers in the Republican Party don't get any slack either, considering that they've been walking around for six years saying they have the replacement ready in their back pocket, just waiting for a Republican president.

Who knew healthcare could be so complicated? Any thinking individual who's paid attention during the last twenty years, that's who.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on March 24, 2017, 07:37:00 pm
...considering that they've been walking around for six years saying they have the replacement ready in their back pocket, just waiting for a Republican president.
This.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Nate in IA on March 25, 2017, 05:57:12 pm
Quite simply, the federal government should have nothing to do with healthcare.   Leave it to the states.   Federalism 101.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Ron Brand on March 25, 2017, 09:55:57 pm
Quite simply, the insurance industry should have nothing to do with health care.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: WVastro on March 26, 2017, 12:13:00 am
Quite simply, the insurance industry should have nothing to do with health care.

Insurance indrustry = A "death panel"

Sarah Palin was only describing what's already in place. Not only do people grossly profit off of health insurance they become million and billionaires. Can someone explain to me why this makes any sense? I'm all ears.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Ron Brand on March 26, 2017, 09:35:11 am
Can someone explain to me why this makes any sense?

You're looking for a logical answer.The only logic in business is profit. Profitable industries write legislation and get it passed.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on March 26, 2017, 11:13:48 am
Quite simply, the federal government should have nothing to do with healthcare.   Leave it to the states.   Federalism 101.

Quite simply that's an absurd statement. The availability of healthcare in the United States in this day and age should not be arbitrary or dependent on geography. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Lefty on March 26, 2017, 12:50:23 pm
Quite simply that's an absurd statement. The availability of healthcare in the United States in this day and age should not be arbitrary or dependent on geography. 

If you don't like the healthcare options in your state, feel free to just move to another one.  The free market trumps societal needs.  The same also holds true for environmental regulations, education, worker safety, etc... [/libertarianism]
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Nate in IA on March 28, 2017, 11:57:44 am
Quite simply that's an absurd statement. The availability of healthcare in the United States in this day and age should not be arbitrary or dependent on geography.

This presumes no one would want to provide good health care because why?  Geography has nothing to do with it.  In a free market, health care would be provided that met the needs of the community just fine whether someone else in another state thought that was good or not.  And without stealing from anyone to accomplish it.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on March 28, 2017, 12:24:25 pm
This presumes no one would want to provide good health care because why?  Geography has nothing to do with it.  In a free market, health care would be provided that met the needs of the community just fine whether someone else in another state thought that was good or not.  And without stealing from anyone to accomplish it.

If geography has nothing to do with it why is it confined to state lines?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Ty in Tampa on March 28, 2017, 01:25:51 pm
If geography has nothing to do with it why is it confined to state lines?

Because states, man!
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on March 28, 2017, 01:27:45 pm
This presumes no one would want to provide good health care because why?

Insurance isn't about providing healthcare, it's about paying for it. And quite simply, no one wants to insure poor people.

Quote
  Geography has nothing to do with it.  In a free market, health care would be provided that met the needs of the community just fine whether someone else in another state thought that was good or not.  And without stealing from anyone to accomplish it.

If you define it by the physical boundaries of states, you've made it entirely geographically dependent. And you're under either the incorrect assumption or  delusion that all states are financially equal.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: WVastro on March 28, 2017, 04:51:32 pm
We need a lively climate change discussion in here! I'm sure many minds will be changed and new discoveries made. A couple kumbaya's later and we'll all be friends again!

Until my great state of West by god Virginia decides to take a giant coal coated and frakking waste filled SHIT in the Monongahela River and decimates the drinking water for a few tens of millions of people. Sorry, but State RIGHTS! Maybe a lawsuit of 20 will make things right!
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on March 28, 2017, 06:52:08 pm
Do you live in Morgantown?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on March 29, 2017, 09:49:32 pm
Insurance isn't about providing healthcare, it's about paying for it. And quite simply, no one wants to insure poor people.

If you define it by the physical boundaries of states, you've made it entirely geographically dependent. And you're under either the incorrect assumption or  delusion that all states are financially equal.

Insurance companies can handle property exposures countrywide, including earthquake in California.  But they won't write flood in Houston and windstorm in Galveston.  They pass on that and let the Federal (not state) government take care of it.  There are some things which a for-profit entity cannot insure because it cannot be underwritten with any degree of certainty of making a profit on any timeline.  So insurance companies bail and people buy insurance from FEMA without fuss (and pretty cheaply).  The FEMA insurance programs are single-payer programs.

Medicare is a single payer program.  The VA is a single payer program.  Trump and Ryan took a run at those and got their balls stomped.  This whole chaos is not about private vs. public insurance; it's about not fucking with people's lives.  Obamacare moved the needle so now pre-exiting conditions coverage, adult kids on parents' programs, no lifetime caps, "essential" health benefits coverage and many, many more things in the Act are now deemed sacrosanct by the public - and they'll fuck up your town hall meeting if you so much as look sideways at them.

Obamacare is a bastard step-child of private insurance supported by government engineering, and it is not sustainable.  It's legacy, though, will be that it catapulted health insurance in this country dramatically forward from where it will never be allowed to slide backwards.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Navin R Johnson on March 30, 2017, 11:01:36 pm
“Five people around [Clinton] have had, have been given immunity, to include her former Chief of Staff. When you are given immunity, that means that you have probably committed a crime,” Flynn told “Meet the Press” host Chuck Todd

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2017/03/30/flashback-michael-flynn-said-people-who-receive-immunity-are-probably-criminals-video/#ixzz4csAmOuF9
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Nate Colbert on March 30, 2017, 11:34:01 pm
“Five people around [Clinton] have had, have been given immunity, to include her former Chief of Staff. When you are given immunity, that means that you have probably committed a crime,” Flynn told “Meet the Press” host Chuck Todd

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2017/03/30/flashback-michael-flynn-said-people-who-receive-immunity-are-probably-criminals-video/#ixzz4csAmOuF9

LOCK HIM UP!!! LOCK HIM UP!!!
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on March 31, 2017, 07:56:19 am
Mike Pence, an adult who is grown,
Cannot sit with women alone.
However, he can
Stand by an old man
Whose fondness for groping is known.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Waldo on March 31, 2017, 11:28:38 am
Mike Pence, an adult who is grown,
Cannot sit with women alone.
However, he can
Stand by an old man
Whose fondness for groping is known.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

http://www.theonion.com/article/mike-pence-asks-waiter-remove-mrs-butterworth-tabl-55661
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on April 02, 2017, 03:29:03 pm
“Five people around [Clinton] have had, have been given immunity, to include her former Chief of Staff. When you are given immunity, that means that you have probably committed a crime,” Flynn told “Meet the Press” host Chuck Todd

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2017/03/30/flashback-michael-flynn-said-people-who-receive-immunity-are-probably-criminals-video/#ixzz4csAmOuF9

Hillary's a bitch; but so is karma.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on April 06, 2017, 10:57:49 am
So President Bannon threatened to quit over being removed from the National Security Council's principles committee, and was removed anyway.  The White House said he was there only to keep an eye on Flynn, who they didn't trust and, with Flynn gone, he could step down.  Ignoring the irony of threating to resign over the principles committee and then not doing so, there's a couple of things of interest here:

1)  Bannon's elevation to that committee actually required him to go through congressional approval, which would've caused a worldwide shortage of popcorn;
2)  The White House's explanation is moronic.  If Flynn was untrustworthy, WTF was he doing on the committee and being NSA in the first place?  Also, Flynn was ousted 5 weeks ago, why did this take so long?

As usual, the White House is doing weird stuff without a credible explanation.  It would be funny, except that real stuff is happening and these clowns have no clue.  Rex "Don't look at me" Tillerson said a couple of days ago that the U.S' position on Assad was "meh" and a day later he dropped chemicals on civilians.  Trump's response was to say "Assad bad".  Elsewhere Trump has threatened unilateral war with North Korea, which may be the only thing that he hasn't put Jared Kushner in charge of.

Seriously, Kushner's to do list is insane (literally and figuratively) and included - for a man with zero diplomatic qualifications - preparations for the trade talks with China at the weekend.  He was in charge of this while also attending high-level talks in Bagdad this week - accompanied by Trump's former bodyguard who was there as advisor, in the meetings with a name plate and everything, not security.  WTF?

And the China talks are at Mar-a-fucking-Lago!  So there's a giant security bill for us, a giant security risk in general - being that the resort is staffed by unvetted foreign workers - and a giant payday for it's owner.

AND, after failing to come even close to adequately firewalling himself from his personal businesses, Trump went back and undid some of the paper-thin walls he established prior to taking office.  He can now draw money out of his business at will, and we'll never know.  So it's now even easier for Russia foreign entities to stuff money directly into Trump's back pocket through any one of his businesses at home or around the world.

And I'm still scratching the surface of the dangerous insanity swirling around this administration.  There is so much going on that it's impossible to keep it all in one head at the same time.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Navin R Johnson on April 06, 2017, 12:41:49 pm
Has he preemptively announced his 2017/18/19 taxes are under audit yet.   This fucking clown couldn't be a bigger charlatan.  I get voting for him in protest of Hillary, but I absolutely can't fathom the people who thought he'd be a good/great President.   Mind-boggling.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on April 07, 2017, 12:30:10 pm
So, after 4 years of heckling Obama (via Twitter, natch) to stay out of Syria and not do anything without congressional approval (yes, Donald actually understood this element of the separation of powers), Trump ups and bombs a Syrian airfield.  And now...what?

Sales of George Orwell's "1984" skyrocketed after Trump's election, and it does seem a lot of the time that it's being used as a blueprint.  Even Trump's limited vocabulary is akin to NewSpeak; "tremendous" being TrumpSpeak for "doubleplusgood".  But this attack may be the most Orwellian trick yet.  I have seen speculation that this is weird - even for Trump - because Assad is an ally of Russia, Trump is an ally of Russia, so why is one Russian ally bombing another?  Answer:  because we've always been at war with EastAsia.

In "1984", Orwell wrote of a regime that was in cahoots with its supposed foe - who would change regularly while reports on the previous foe would disappear down the memory hole - the mutual goal being perpetual war.  Such an arrangement allowed both sides to subjugate their populations with destruction and poverty, leaving them too "stupefied" by the onslaught of fake news to take back control of their own lives.  Am I being paranoid?  Or did we just find out why Trump's budget proposed slashing spending on everything except the military.

We have always been at war with Russyria.

Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: homer on April 07, 2017, 01:28:05 pm
I wondered how you would square the Syrian attack with the Russian puppet narrative. I guess going further into the recesses of your imagination is one way to cope.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on April 07, 2017, 03:00:38 pm
I wondered how you would square the Syrian attack with the Russian puppet narrative. I guess going further into the recesses of your imagination is one way to cope.

It's hardly a "narrative" when there are multiple investigations into ties between Russia and the Trump campaign and multiple Trump associates getting caught lying about meetings with Russians (Jared being the latest).  Everyone around Trump is linked to Russia - and only Russia.  Trump himself has lied about knowing Putin, not knowing Putin, having Russian investors, not having Russian investors, having dealings with Russians and - shockingly - not having dealings with Russians.  The Trump dossier published by Buzzfeed - the non-salacious elements of it, at least - are steadily being confirmed as accurate while nothing in it has been confirmed as not true.

Drop!  Drip!  Drip!  Russia!  Russia!  Russia!

It's not a narrative, it's a billowing pall of smoke that's engulfed Washington. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on April 07, 2017, 04:28:34 pm
The attack was revealed to the Russians ahead of time, and the Russians obviously alerted the Syrians. Despite having the most capable and advanced military in the history of the world the US could not manage to drop a single missle on any runway, and indeed Syrian fighters flew attack missions from that very base today.

How anyone can see this as anything other than elaborate theater designed to demonstrate that Russia does not in fact hold the note on Trump I can't imagine.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on April 07, 2017, 06:54:46 pm
In the tall buildings
Sit the head of our nations
Worthy men from Spain and Siam
All day discussions with the Russians
But they still went ahead
And vetoed the plan
Now up jumped the U.S. representative
He's the one with the tired eyes
747 for the midnight condition
Flyin' back from a peace keepin' mission

And so it goes and so it goes
And so it goes and so it goes
But where it's goin' no one knows
And so it goes and so it goes
And so it goes and so it goes
But where it's goin' no one knows
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on April 09, 2017, 12:17:16 pm
I saw a small part of Tillerson on the TV this morning.  He was getting schooled on his bullshit talking points by the Face the Nation host.  Tillerson was saying that we need to step back and let the Syrian people decide their own fate and, when it was pointed out that there are simply no mechanisms left standing for them to do this, he had nothing.

Bombing the Syrians to get them to stop bombing Syrians is nonsense.  Removing Assad before ISIS/L is gone is nonsense.  Bombing Syrians to protect Syrian children who we then refuse to offer save haven to is nonsense.  Deliberately missing the runways (confirmed by a Trump tweet this morning) because they're easily fixed (his excuse) is nonsense. 

This is a distraction, pure and simple.  There is no plan for after the distraction.  It was "fire and forget" in literal form.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on April 09, 2017, 12:21:55 pm
If geography has nothing to do with it why is it confined to state lines?

My Charlotte, NC employer arranges for me, a Texas-based employee, health insurance from BCBS of Rhode Island.  Healthcare isn't federally blocked from crossing state lines; insurers just like to keep thing compartmentalized. 

Of course, if they do open it up:
(1)  Umm...states rights?
(b)  You know how every single credit card company is based in Delaware...
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on April 09, 2017, 12:23:02 pm
Mike Pence, an adult who is grown,
Cannot sit with women alone.
However, he can
Stand by an old man
Whose fondness for groping is known.

Bill Maher absolutely nailed this by saying "it's so Christian, it's Muslim!"
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on April 11, 2017, 03:28:14 pm
"Can you imagine a worse PR blunder than United this week?"
Sean Spicer: "Hold my beer."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on April 12, 2017, 08:37:49 am
In case you missed it:  Carter Page, a foreign affairs advisor to the Trump campaign, was one of many Trump campaign advisors with ties to Russia.  For example, while on the campaign's payroll, and in the thick of the revelations about the Russian interference in the election on behalf of Trump, Page took a trip to Russia to meet with contacts there.  But his ties go deeper.

In 2013, he was caught up in a spy ring (https://www.buzzfeed.com/alimwatkins/a-former-trump-adviser-met-with-a-russian-spy?utm_term=.khgbweb6V#.pszp5dpmK).  The FBI busted some Russian spies and, included in the testimony in the successful prosecution of said spies, were details of a US individual - referred to as "Man-1" - who had been recruited by the Russian spies and handed over documents to them.  It appears that Man-1 was an unwitting participant; the Russians described him as being "in love with Gazprom" and "an idiot".  Carter Page has himself confirmed to the press that he is "Man-1".

In order to wiretapp (sic) a US person, the FBI needs a warrant from the FISA court.  These are not given lightly as they involve setting aside a US person's constitutional rights; the FBI has to show strong probable cause.  So, it was no small matter when , in 2016, the FBI sought and obtained a FISA warrant on a US person who they suspected of being an agent of a foreign power - Russia, in fact.  Guess who it was they were investigating?  Bingo!  Carter Page (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/fbi-obtained-fisa-warrant-to-monitor-former-trump-adviser-carter-page/2017/04/11/620192ea-1e0e-11e7-ad74-3a742a6e93a7_story.html).

Now, an investigation is no proof of any wrongdoing.  The FISA warrant was set to expire after 90 days and the FBI had to show the court that there was some "there" there, in order to continue the surveillance.  The warrant was extended.  At least twice.

Drip!  Drip!  Drip!  Russia!  Russia!  Russia!

Meanwhile, WH Press Secretary Sean Spalin has been gobbling up news time with his ongoing inability to connect his brain to his mouth (and I think I'm being generous here crediting him with a brain), while Trump tweets threats at North Korea as he sends a carrier group north towards the Korean peninsula.  Trump even appended his threatening tweet (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/851767718248361986?ref_src=twsrc^tfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.foxnews.com%2Fpolitics%2F2017%2F04%2F11%2Fus-navy-carrier-strike-group-sets-its-sights-on-north-korea.html) with "U.S.A.", as if this was the fucking Ryder Cup of wars.  But, sure, let's focus on Spalin.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on April 12, 2017, 09:03:00 am
A pessimistic sort might doubt that he could top the Hitler didn't use chemical weapons routine but I feel sure he'll surprise me somehow.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on April 12, 2017, 09:15:46 am
A pessimistic sort might doubt that he could top the Hitler didn't use chemical weapons routine but I feel sure he'll surprise me somehow.

I thought his apology that he didn't want to distract from the administration's "efforts to destabilize the region" was pretty strong.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on April 12, 2017, 09:19:39 am
I thought his apology that he didn't want to distract from the administration's "efforts to destabilize the region" was pretty strong.

Yeah, well, see what I mean?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on April 12, 2017, 10:38:21 am
I thought his apology that he didn't want to distract from the administration's "efforts to destabilize the region" was pretty strong.

Trump continuing to live up to his pledge to bring in the "best people".
Title: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on April 12, 2017, 10:50:20 am
I'll say this: all of the "Holocaust center" and ensuing gaffes were effective in distracting from the fundamental point he was so terribly making (inadvertently):

If Assad is worse than Hitler, why are we just lobbing a few missiles?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on April 12, 2017, 01:24:40 pm
I'll say this: all of the "Holocaust center" and ensuing gaffes were effective in distracting from the fundamental point he was so terribly making (inadvertently):

If Assad is worse than Hitler, why are we just lobbing a few missiles?

Saddam was supposed to be worse than Hitler too.  The key element here, like with Pol Pot and many others, is that they killed their own people, so we can stand on the sidelines because...self-determination (the exact argument used by Tillerson just on Sunday after Friday's bombings).  Hitler started killing other people's people; which is where we draw the line.  Mostly.

The Guardian has an unhelpful quiz (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/12/50-shades-of-trumps-foreign-policy-handy-quiz) as to Trump's foreign policy.  With regard to Ashad Assar Assad, after spending years "warning" President Obama to stay out of Syria as it's not our fight, Trump's administration staked out at least 5 positions on Syria in the space of a week.  This included Spicer adding the use of barrel bombs on civilians - which Assad has been doing for about six years - to the wrong side of the red line, before this was instantly walked back by other administration officials.

With all this chaos going on, it's very much worth remembering that there are hundreds of US troops on the ground in Syria.  How do they even have a chance of doing their job over there without any semblance of policy or guidance from Washington?  How much more peril are they in as a result of these randomly shifting positions?  Is anybody in the White House talking to anyone else in the White House?  Did Ivanka really have the swaying argument in the decision to attack Syria as Eric has stated?  Did Marvel really see all this coming when the wrote the "OppositeLand" plot for Agents of Shield Hydra?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: BudGirl on April 12, 2017, 01:27:31 pm
Saddam was supposed to be worse than Hitler too.  The key element here, like with Pol Pot and many others, is that they killed their own people, so we can stand on the sidelines because...self-determination (the exact argument used by Tillerson just on Sunday after Friday's bombings).  Hitler started killing other people's people; which is where we draw the line.  Mostly.

The Guardian has an unhelpful quiz (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/12/50-shades-of-trumps-foreign-policy-handy-quiz) as to Trump's foreign policy.  With regard to Ashad Assar Assad, after spending years "warning" President Obama to stay out of Syria as it's not our fight, Trump's administration staked out at least 5 positions on Syria in the space of a week.  This included Spicer adding the use of barrel bombs on civilians - which Assad has been doing for about six years - to the wrong side of the red line, before this was instantly walked back by other administration officials.

With all this chaos going on, it's very much worth remembering that there are hundreds of US troops on the ground in Syria.  How do they even have a chance of doing their job over there without any semblance of policy or guidance from Washington?  How much more peril are they in as a result of these randomly shifting positions?  Is anybody in the White House talking to anyone else in the White House?  Did Ivanka really have the swaying argument in the decision to attack Syria as Eric has stated?  Did Marvel really see all this coming when the wrote the "OppositeLand" plot for Agents of Shield Hydra?

It's easy to play war when your kids aren't the ones going.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on April 12, 2017, 01:33:47 pm
Some stats from a Washington Post poll (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2017/04/11/daily-202-reflexive-partisanship-drives-polling-lurch-on-syria-strikes/58ec27d4e9b69b3a72331e6e/?utm_term=.567b8b0e5065):

In 2013, 38% of Democrats supported strikes against Syria while just 22% of Republicans did.  If you recall, Obama asked the Republican-lead Congress to authorize military action - as is their constitutional role - and they declined even to discuss the matter.  Fast forward to 2017, 37% of Democrats support Trump's strike against Syria; remarkably consistent.  Republican support?  86%.

Now what on earth could have changed between 2013 and 2017 to quadruple support for strikes against Syria among Republicans?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on April 12, 2017, 03:39:45 pm
Some stats from a Washington Post poll (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2017/04/11/daily-202-reflexive-partisanship-drives-polling-lurch-on-syria-strikes/58ec27d4e9b69b3a72331e6e/?utm_term=.567b8b0e5065):

In 2013, 38% of Democrats supported strikes against Syria while just 22% of Republicans did.  If you recall, Obama asked the Republican-lead Congress to authorize military action - as is their constitutional role - and they declined even to discuss the matter.  Fast forward to 2017, 37% of Democrats support Trump's strike against Syria; remarkably consistent.  Republican support?  86%.

Now what on earth could have changed between 2013 and 2017 to quadruple support for strikes against Syria among Republicans?

That tells you all you need to know about today's Republican Party which incidentally is the most dangerous organization in the history of the world.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on April 12, 2017, 04:38:30 pm
That tells you all you need to know about today's Republican Party which incidentally is the most dangerous organization in the history of the world.

Please, they don't even make the top 5.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: BudGirl on April 12, 2017, 04:39:26 pm
Please, they don't even make the top 5.

I do put Fox news above them.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on April 12, 2017, 04:59:34 pm
That tells you all you need to know about today's Republican Party which incidentally is the most dangerous organization in the history of the world.

The Nazi Party would like a word.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Aussie Astro on April 12, 2017, 05:28:37 pm
Please, they don't even make the top 5.

1. MLB.
2 .KAOS.
3. United Airlines.
4. ...

It starts to get a bit tricky from here.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on April 12, 2017, 05:38:20 pm
I do put Fox news above them.

Fox in general.  They cancelled Firefly.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on April 12, 2017, 09:12:32 pm
The Nazi Party would like a word.

6,000,000 < 7,500,000,000
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on April 12, 2017, 09:15:47 pm
1. MLB.
2 .KAOS.
3. United Airlines.
4. ...

It starts to get a bit tricky from here.

I've got

1. The Illuminati
2. The Trilateral Commission
3. The Church of the SubGenius
4. The Disciples of Noam Chomsky's Fevered Brain
5. The Knights Templar
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on April 12, 2017, 09:19:43 pm
I've got

1. The Illuminati
2. The Trilateral Commission
3. The Church of the SubGenius
4. The Disciples of Noam Chomsky's Fevered Brain
5. The Knights Templar

I'd move Cardinals fans into the 3 spot.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on April 13, 2017, 08:13:05 am
6,000,000 < 7,500,000,000

From The Guardian (http://After his U-turns at home and Dr Strangelove-style antics abroad, markets and investors are supposing that the president is making it up as he goes along):

Quote
After his U-turns at home and Dr Strangelove-style antics abroad, markets and investors are supposing that the president is making it up as he goes along

Financial markets are starting to have doubts about Donald Trump. The euphoria that sent share prices on Wall Street to record levels has quickly dissipated amid fears that the new president is dangerously unpredictable.  Evidence that Trump does not really have a clue about what he is doing is mounting by the day.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on April 13, 2017, 08:18:53 am
Quote from:  Donald J. Trump
After listening for 10 minutes, I realized it's not so easy.

This quote perfectly encapsulates everything that's going wrong with the Trump presidency.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on April 13, 2017, 08:23:36 am
Last one for the day (I hope).  Paul Manafort - Trump's campaign chairman through his push for the nomination and through the convention - will be the second Trump associate (after former NSA Flynn) to retroactively file as a foreign agent (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/manafort-is-expected-to-register-as-a-foreign-agent/2017/04/12/6c7cdd58-1fb0-11e7-ad74-3a742a6e93a7_story.html?utm_term=.6046f616afc0).

#AmericaFirst
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on April 13, 2017, 09:14:38 am
This quote perfectly encapsulates everything that's going wrong with the Trump presidency.
I hope all of his supporters who are capable of reflection have given up on the idea that he is a "master negotiator," or "will transform government as only a super-successful businessman can," or demonstrate how genius it is to pit all of your employees against each other. 

He's a complete moron.  Today's example is his health care negotiating ploy to get dems on board: "I'll scrap the ACA subsidy program, thereby collapsing the ACA if you don't go along with me in repealing the ACA."  He is so fucking stupid.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on April 13, 2017, 09:24:28 am
I hope all of his supporters who are capable of reflection have given up on the idea that he is a "master negotiator," or "will transform government as only a super-successful businessman can," or demonstrate how genius it is to pit all of your employees against each other. 

He's a complete moron.  Today's example is his health care negotiating ploy to get dems on board: "I'll scrap the ACA subsidy program, thereby collapsing the ACA if you don't go along with me in repealing the ACA."  He is so fucking stupid.

That's a nice healthcare act you've got there.  Shame if something happened to it...
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Mike S. on April 13, 2017, 11:27:33 am
I'd move Cardinals fans into the 3 spot.


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Where does PAGAN rank?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on April 13, 2017, 11:29:51 am
Where does PAGAN rank?

I'll have to ask the Virgin Connie Swail


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on April 13, 2017, 12:01:21 pm
I'd move Cardinals fans into the 3 spot.


There has to be some room for LucasFilm.  Yes, they (he) made Star Wars and Empire and Jedi.  But they (he) also made the prequels and then went back and smeared poo on the originals leaving no unsullied copies.  That's some evil shit.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on April 13, 2017, 12:09:45 pm

There has to be some room for LucasFilm.  Yes, they (he) made Star Wars and Empire and Jedi.  But they (he) also made the prequels and then went back and smeared poo on the originals leaving no unsullied copies.  That's some evil shit.

But they made Force Awakens and Rogue One. Not to mention TIE Fighter, which is underrated on any "best video games of all time" list.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on April 13, 2017, 12:11:50 pm
But they made Force Awakens and Rogue One. Not to mention TIE Fighter, which is underrated on any "best video games of all time" list.

I know.  It's just so confusing.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Ty in Tampa on April 13, 2017, 01:17:41 pm

...leaving no unsullied copies.

If you haven't already, google "Harmy's"
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on April 14, 2017, 09:38:37 am
China warns that conflict with North Korea could break out at "any moment" (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/china-warns-of-n-korea-conflict-at-any-moment/ar-BBzPBno?li=BBnb7Kz).  They cite Trump's sabre-rattling as a major cause of the escalation of tensions.  Trump, if you recall, has threatened to sort out North Korea if China doesn't (something he now knows that China can't do) and has threatened military action if North Korea goes ahead with a nuclear test.  He also sent a carrier fleet that way and then went golfing.

For reference, the Trump administration is less than 3 months old (https://youtu.be/15YgdrhrCM8).
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on April 14, 2017, 10:04:48 am
China warns that conflict with North Korea could break out at "any moment" (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/china-warns-of-n-korea-conflict-at-any-moment/ar-BBzPBno?li=BBnb7Kz).  They cite Trump's sabre-rattling as a major cause of the escalation of tensions.  Trump, if you recall, has threatened to sort out North Korea if China doesn't (something he now knows that China can't do) and has threatened military action if North Korea goes ahead with a nuclear test.  He also sent a carrier fleet that way and then went golfing.

For reference, the Trump administration is less than 3 months old (https://youtu.be/15YgdrhrCM8).

I don't mind the sabre rattling if he's prepared to use it.  But now he's rattled himself into a corner.  He now has to punk the DPRK or he's just shown the world he has neither a clue nor any balls.  You don't pull your piece unless your ready, willing and able to empty the clip. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on April 15, 2017, 08:07:29 am
If you haven't already, google "Harmy's"

Thanks for this--I had no idea!
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on April 15, 2017, 08:07:58 am
You don't pull your piece unless your ready, willing and able to empty the clip.

TWSS
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on April 17, 2017, 08:48:35 am
I don't mind the sabre rattling if he's prepared to use it.  But now he's rattled himself into a corner.  He now has to punk the DPRK or he's just shown the world he has neither a clue nor any balls.  You don't pull your piece unless your ready, willing and able to empty the clip.

It's impossible to negotiate with an isolated, narcissistic, unstable, know-nothing with a dodgy haircut in charge of a significant military.

Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on April 17, 2017, 09:59:32 am
It's impossible to negotiate with an isolated, narcissistic, unstable, know-nothing with a dodgy haircut in charge of a significant military.

Personally, I don't think the Fat Kid is as dumb as he looks.  The general populace there in DPRK is pretty ill informed, but he's not.  He's lived in the west.  He went to school in the west.  He watches the NBA and Swedish porn.  He knows he can't win that fight, he just has to find a way to back down and tell his people he won.  China will help him do that. 

Of course I could be wrong. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on April 17, 2017, 10:48:51 am
Personally, I don't think the Fat Kid is as dumb as he looks.  The general populace there in DPRK is pretty ill informed, but he's not.  He's lived in the west.  He went to school in the west.  He watches the NBA and Swedish porn.  He knows he can't win that fight, he just has to find a way to back down and tell his people he won.  China will help him do that. 

Of course I could be wrong.

I think Limey was talking about the other isolated, narcissistic, unstable, know-nothing with a dodgy haircut in charge of a significant military.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on April 17, 2017, 12:50:36 pm
I think Limey was talking about the other isolated, narcissistic, unstable, know-nothing with a dodgy haircut in charge of a significant military.

A little from column A; a little from column B.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on April 17, 2017, 12:57:10 pm
I think Limey was talking about the other isolated, narcissistic, unstable, know-nothing with a dodgy haircut in charge of a significant military.

Ohhhh....I see now...
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: WVastro on April 17, 2017, 10:33:43 pm
I don't mind the sabre rattling if he's prepared to use it.  But now he's rattled himself into a corner.  He now has to punk the DPRK or he's just shown the world he has neither a clue nor any balls.  You don't pull your piece unless your ready, willing and able to empty the clip.

I hope this was sarcastic and I'm making a mistake....


You don't mind "saber rattling"? Are we still childish enough to think solutions to actual problems that effect MILLIONS of people might  only require "balls" to solve? I would hope that we as a species don't need silly gun analogies to describe what would be a truly horrific outcome.

I spent a weekend in a hotel over the weekend that Trump "wagged the dog in Syria". I don't have cable and never want to again. The absolute frothy mouthed enthusiasm for WAR was disgusting on every freaking channel. I can't stand this warmongering attitude that somehow is now acceptable

I very much mind the "saber rattling" if "he's prepared to use it". That outcome sucks for all of us.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on April 17, 2017, 11:15:50 pm
I spent a weekend in a hotel over the weekend that Trump "wagged the dog in Syria". I don't have cable and never want to again. The absolute frothy mouthed enthusiasm for WAR was disgusting on every freaking channel. I can't stand this warmongering attitude that somehow is now acceptable.

It was beyond disgusting. Even the networks that nutcases love to mock as 'liberal' frothed themselves into an onanistic frenzy.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on April 18, 2017, 06:26:28 am
I hope this was sarcastic and I'm making a mistake....

It was not sarcastic, but you are making a mistake, namely not knowing what an analogy is.  I don't really think Trump has a physical sabre that he's literally rattling, like in a garbage can or something.  What I mean is he shouldn't talk tough unless he's willing to actually be tough.  The world is a rough and tumble place.  Not everyone out there in it shares your warm fuzzies.  You have to deal with those people too, particularly when they possess nuclear weapons.  Don't confront them unless you are prepared to act. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on April 18, 2017, 10:16:58 am
It was not sarcastic, but you are making a mistake, namely not knowing what an analogy is.  I don't really think Trump has a physical sabre that he's literally rattling, like in a garbage can or something.  What I mean is he shouldn't talk tough unless he's willing to actually be tough.  The world is a rough and tumble place.  Not everyone out there in it shares your warm fuzzies.  You have to deal with those people too, particularly when they possess nuclear weapons.  Don't confront them unless you are prepared to act.

He threatened military action if NK went ahead with its missile test.  It did (it was a failure, but they still pressed the start button).  Trump's response...a tweet saying that NK "gotta behave".  WTF?  Or else timeout?

We are lucky that missile blew up on launch, as it gives both sides an out.  If it had flown, then what?  Are we in a new war in southeast Asia?  With nukes this time?  Buh-bye Soeul?

This will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: BudGirl on April 18, 2017, 10:33:11 am

This will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.

This is what I fear for the future!
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Mike S. on April 18, 2017, 11:10:30 am
This will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.

Great reference. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Aussie Astro on April 18, 2017, 06:11:11 pm
He threatened military action if NK went ahead with its missile test.  It did (it was a failure, but they still pressed the start button).  Trump's response...a tweet saying that NK "gotta behave".  WTF?  Or else timeout?

We are lucky that missile blew up on launch, as it gives both sides an out.  If it had flown, then what?  Are we in a new war in southeast Asia?  With nukes this time?  Buh-bye Soeul?

This will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.

What should he do?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on April 19, 2017, 08:41:28 am
What should he do?

At the weekend, he talked about how “the gentleman” in charge of North Korea had "outplayed" his predecessors going all the way back to Bill Clinton. 

Quote from: Donald Trump
I hope things work out well. I hope there’s going to be peace, but you know, they’ve been talking with this gentleman for a long time. You read Clinton’s book, he said, ‘Oh we made such a great peace deal,’ and it was a joke.

You look at different things over the years with President Obama. Everybody’s been outplayed, they’ve all been outplayed by this gentleman and we’ll see what happens.

He referenced “the gentleman” a number of times making it clear that: (1) he couldn’t remember Kim Jong-Un’s name; and (b) that he didn’t realise “the gentleman” was actually three people.  It's not like North Korea was a gotcha question. 

Also, the carrier strike force armada that Trump sent into the Sea of Japan – a move that was confirmed by his NSA, Press Secretary and Defense Secretary – was actually heading in the opposite direction (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/despite-talk-of-a-military-strike-trumps-armada-was-a-long-way-from-korea/2017/04/18/e8ef4237-e26a-4cfc-b5e9-526c3a17bd41_story.html?utm_term=.50246488d9ac) to enjoin war games with your navy down under.  So all the bluster, chest-puffing and dick-measuring of such a bold show of force was simply a lie.  Either that or an entire carrier strike group just mutinied.

To recap, in just the last few days he forgot the name of the country he'd just bombed, lost a carrier strike group - or forget he sent it somewhere or forgot he didn't send it somewhere - and failed as completely as possible to know who is currently in charge of the most deadly threat to humanity.

He’s the one who wanted this job, not me.  He needs to do it.  It’s important, because his clear and present incompetence could get us all killed.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on April 20, 2017, 08:46:26 am
So, the new dawn of conservative dominance has seen:
- A faceplant on healthcare reform
- A delay to tax reform (maybe until healthcare is done, but that story keeps changing)
- An inability to get the wall started because Mexico won't pay for it
- Two Federal court injunctions against the Muslim ban
- The National Security Advisor fired after 24 days
- 6 other White House staffers walked off the premises for failing to pass a background check
- A Supreme Court nominee confirmed only after blowing up Senate procedural rules
- Multiple investigations into the administration
- AG Sessions recusing himself from investigations
- House Intelligence Committee Chair Nunes sidelined after punching himself in the face  on live TV
- House Oversight Committee Chair Chafitz quitting (because no Hillary)
- Roger Ailes fired
- Bill O'Reilly fired
- Maddow now beating Fox News in 9pm (ET) slot
- Tomi Lahren fired
- and suing Glenn Beck
- Alex Jones outed as a fraud by his own lawyer

This is starting to remind me of Brexit on steroids; where the dogs who caught the car winners all imploded within moments of their victory.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on April 20, 2017, 09:15:23 am
I'm betting that Alex Jones is actually crazy
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on April 20, 2017, 01:17:40 pm
I'm betting that Alex Jones is actually crazy

I wouldn't take that bet.  You know you're desperate when you'd rather be painted as a clown performance artist than have your words and deeds taken literally.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on April 20, 2017, 04:52:53 pm
I'm betting that Alex Jones is actually crazy

I thought this trial reported that he was diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on April 21, 2017, 08:39:42 am
I thought this trial reported that he was diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder.

More likely arsessistic personality disorder.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 09, 2017, 08:42:42 am
So, Flynn - with his "underlying conduct" - is completely fucked.  The question now is, to everyone in the Trump administration: "What did you know about Flynn and when did you know it?"

Pence is already on record lying about when he knew.  I'm not sure there's enough substance in Trump's endless word salad to catch him in a straight lie like Pence's, but Trump was warned off Flynn by Obama about 3 days after the election.  Also, Spicer told the press corps in mid-February that Trump had been told about the DOJ "heads up" on Flynn.  That "heads up", of course, was in actuality a complete download of what the FBI and DOJ had uncovered about Flynn, his "underlying conduct" and his lies about all of the above such that he was now deemed compromised by the Russians.

Flynn is (obviously) the key here.  Why was he hired in the first place and why did they keep him on for so long after the game was up?  The administration either failed to vet Flynn, or vetted him and didn't care that he'd been an undeclared foreign agent on the payroll of Turkey - really Russia by proxy - and Russia directly.  When confronted with this exclusionary information, they pressed ahead appointing Flynn to the most sensitive national security position in the government and then left him there despite being told again and again and again that he was in a position to be blackmailed by the Russians.

As an aside, the firing of Acting AG Yates has taken on a new hue.  Initially, the rationale was that she was fired for failing to uphold Trump's Muslim ban because it was unconstitutional (and the pressing of her on this subject by the gentlemen from Texas turned into a hilariously viscous spanking of the two).  The timing fits this narrative.  However, her firing also came on the first working day after the two meetings she had at the White House where she warned them about ticking time bomb that was their NSA.

Flynn has been after immunity for weeks.  People will go to jail over this.  We're only 109 days into this Presidency.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on May 09, 2017, 10:03:06 am
Seems like the explanation that fits best is:  Trump and all his top dogs knew that Flynn had talked to the Russians.  After all, do you really think Flynn would make promises to the Russians without Trump's assent, or that the Russians would base their actions on some rogue employee?  They all knew the score.  So, the Yates reveal actually revealed nothing to them and there was no threat of blackmail to worry about.  That's why McGahn was only interested in why DOJ cared, whether they would prosecute and what evidence they had.  At that point, Trump thought it was contained within the DOJ (which he could soon fix) and there was no need to deal with Flynn.  Then the Wapo story came out and Trump had to act.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 09, 2017, 10:57:43 am
Seems like the explanation that fits best is:  Trump and all his top dogs knew that Flynn had talked to the Russians.  After all, do you really think Flynn would make promises to the Russians without Trump's assent, or that the Russians would base their actions on some rogue employee?  They all knew the score.  So, the Yates reveal actually revealed nothing to them and there was no threat of blackmail to worry about.  That's why McGahn was only interested in why DOJ cared, whether they would prosecute and what evidence they had.  At that point, Trump thought it was contained within the DOJ (which he could soon fix) and there was no need to deal with Flynn.  Then the Wapo story came out and Trump had to act.

* Golf clap*

Exactly.  And - as Al Franken pointed out - Trump didn't want to have to fire Flynn over ties to Russia because, if he did, he'd end up having to fire everyone up to and including First Son-in-Law Jared.  Actually, everyone up to and including himself, leaving Pence to turn the White House into the town council from Footloose.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Mike S. on May 09, 2017, 11:22:49 am
council

I see what you did there.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: austro on May 09, 2017, 09:08:37 pm
Looks like Comey was making people uncomfortable. I imagine that the next person that's installed will demand oaths of fealty to the king.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 10, 2017, 08:46:04 am
Looks like Comey was making people uncomfortable. I imagine that the next person that's installed will demand oaths of fealty to the king.

If Trump had ever read a book, he'd know that things don't work out well for the President who fires the man investigating the President.  Trump probably thinks Archibald Cox is one of Antony Weiner's online noms de plume.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 10, 2017, 09:35:06 am
In all seriousness, this is nuts.  There is no justification for the timing of the firing of Comey; if it was about the Clinton emails, it should have been done long before now or after the DOJ completed its investigation into Comey's handling of the affair if deemed appropriate.  Claiming that it was on the recommendation of the AG - based on a memo (dated the same day as the termination letter) written by the Deputy G in which he fails to actually recommend firing Comey - is such a thin veil of fabricated cover that it engenders nothing but derision.

Trump has been trying to move on from Russia - White House spokesperson Sarah Sanders said exactly this on TV yesterday.  But whatever happens - bombing Syria, bombing Afghanistan, passing a healthcare bill, and even threatening to re-invade Afghanistan as he did on Monday trying to drown out the Clapper/Yates testimony - it always comes back to Russia.  He was tweet-yelling at the news this morning because its more about Russia than ever.

Sean Spicer was hiding in the bushes last night - literally, I shit you not - refusing to talk to reporters until they turned their cameras off.  He is awol today, with Sarah Sanders once again taking her talking points and dim wit to the podium to try and fend off the press.

Trump has accelerated his own demise, as did Nixon before him.  It won't be the "failing" NY Times or the Washington Post that gets him, it won't be Jake Tapper or Rachael Maddow either.  It will be the Republicans turning on him - just as they did Nixon - because they don't want to be dragging behind them the stinking carcass of a dead President into the next round of elections.

In the meantime, though, to paraphrase Rear Admiral Painter, this is already out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.  How long before Trump decides that, to get the news off Russia, he needs to nuke North Korea? 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on May 10, 2017, 10:08:40 am
According to Politico's lead article, Trump believed firing Comey would be received as a "win-win."

There are Shakespearean levels of delusion going on in the Oval Office right now.

This isn't going to end well.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/10/comey-firing-trump-russia-238192
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on May 10, 2017, 11:28:35 am
If Trump had ever read a book, he'd know that things don't work out well for the President who fires the man investigating the President.  Trump probably thinks Archibald Cox is one of Antony Weiner's online noms de plume.
Archie Bald Cocks?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MikeyBoy on May 10, 2017, 11:36:38 am
All of this talk about James Comey getting fired is making me want a chili dog.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on May 10, 2017, 11:43:41 am
A few days ago Comey asked the justice department for more resources to pursue the Russia investigation. (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/10/us/politics/comey-russia-investigation-fbi.html?_r=0). 

The request went to Deputy AG Rosenstein, who is supervising the investigation while Sessions is recused.  Both of whom sent the letters Trump used as an obvious pretext to fire Comey.  It seems odd to me that despite being recused from anything to do with the investigation Sessions can still have the authority to recommend removing the person leading the investigation, but these are odd times. Rosenstein should be recused at this point as well.  Ethically, the new FBI director selected by Trump should be entirely isolated from the continuing investigation due to the obvious conflict of being hired by the person close to the subject of the investigation (if not the actual subject of the investigation). 

It is amazing to me that under these circumstances congressional and senate republicans are even attempting to resist the appointment of a special prosecutor, which is the obvious and only solution to the situation Trump and his administration have created.   
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on May 10, 2017, 11:52:43 am
It is amazing to me that under these circumstances congressional and senate republicans are even attempting to resist the appointment of a special prosecutor, which is the obvious and only solution to the situation Trump and his administration have created.   

I am well beyond being amazed by anything congressional republicans do. They long ago lost all sense of perspective when it comes to duty to country versus duty to party.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on May 10, 2017, 11:56:54 am
I am well beyond being amazed by anything congressional republicans do. They long ago lost all sense of perspective when it comes to duty to country versus duty to party.

Spineless, feckless, and utterly unprincipled. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 10, 2017, 12:05:15 pm
Meanwhile, today Trump met with Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov.  He did this behind closed doors, excluding the press from the meeting.

He's either that dumb, or he's "like a smart person" and just fucking with us.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on May 10, 2017, 12:14:57 pm
Sean Spicer was hiding in the bushes last night - literally, I shit you not - refusing to talk to reporters until they turned their cameras off.  He is awol today, with Sarah Sanders once again taking her talking points and dim wit to the podium to try and fend off the press.

SNL doesn't even need to create a satirical plot line as Spicer did it for them.  I hear he is out for the rest of the week.  He's probably gone.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 10, 2017, 12:17:53 pm
According to Politico's lead article, Trump believed firing Comey would be received as a "win-win."

There are Shakespearean levels of delusion going on in the Oval Office right now.

This isn't going to end well.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/10/comey-firing-trump-russia-238192


Comey found out about it when his colleagues saw it on a news crawl and pointed it out to him.  He thought it was a prank.  Trump sent his former body guard, now head Oval Office Operations, to FBI headquarters with the "Dear James" letter at the same time it was announced publicly, because...class?  Professionalism?  21st century communication?

Even when doing his evil deeds, he's a complete fuck-up.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 10, 2017, 12:21:14 pm
SNL doesn't even need to create a satirical plot line as Spicer did it for them.  I hear he is out for the rest of the week.  He's probably gone.

He's been shit at his job since Day #1.  His deputy is Sarah Sanders, and she's worse (but nowhere near as funny).  What will be great is when SNL retires Melissa McCarthy's Spicer and replaces him/her with Bobby Moynihan's Sanders...just to blow Trump's mind.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on May 10, 2017, 12:22:58 pm

Comey found out about it when his colleagues saw it on a news crawl and pointed it out to him.  He thought it was a prank.  Trump sent his former body guard, now head Oval Office Operations, to FBI headquarters with the "Dear James" letter at the same time it was announced publicly, because...class?  Professionalism?  21st century communication?

Because he's a complete coward.  "I'm going to send my bodyguard to tell that large man that he is fired." 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on May 10, 2017, 12:36:06 pm
Meanwhile, today Trump met with Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov.  He did this behind closed doors, excluding the press from the meeting.

He's either that dumb, or he's "like a smart person" and just fucking with us.

He didn't exclude the press. He excluded the American press. Russian press was allowed in.

Seriously.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: geezerdonk on May 10, 2017, 12:48:14 pm
All of this talk about James Comey getting fired is making me want a chili dog.

Nixon liked chili dogs. Coincidence?

I think that Hitler did too, but I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 10, 2017, 02:10:39 pm
He didn't exclude the press. He excluded the American press. Russian press was allowed in.

Seriously.


Very true.  The Russians tweeted photos of Trump shaking hands with Lavrov and the Trump administration's favorite Rooskie, Sergei Kislyak.  That's some world-class trolling right there!

Yes, Trump met also with Kislyak today (of all days, although, any day is likely to be a day with news relating to improper connections to Kislyak). 

They're taking a victory lap while laughing at us.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 11, 2017, 06:54:43 am
Interesting aside: the Russian press were allowed to bring their cameras, camera bags and a raft of electronic equipment into the Oval Office to shoot the overly-happy handshakes between Trump, Lavrov and Kislyak.

So that's the Oval bugged to shit, then.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Ty in Tampa on May 11, 2017, 07:15:50 am
It will be the Republicans turning on him - just as they did Nixon - because they don't want to be dragging behind them the stinking carcass of a dead President into the next round of elections. 

I'm not holding my breath for this. Their actions seem to run along the lines of "wait long enough and the electorate will forget." Every interview I've heard, except for McCain, is "Well, it's really not that bad. Let's see how the congressional hearings play out."
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 11, 2017, 08:22:37 am
I'm not holding my breath for this. Their actions seem to run along the lines of "wait long enough and the electorate will forget." Every interview I've heard, except for McCain, is "Well, it's really not that bad. Let's see how the congressional hearings play out."

This is now.  Wait until next year, when the polls are showing a consistent swing in one direction and they're getting savaged at town halls and debates.  They will wrap Trumpcare around Donald's neck ("we didn't want to...he made us do it!") and then lob him into the Potomac.

The Saturday Night Massacre was in October 1973.  Nixon wasn't forced out until August 1974, just ahead of the midterms...
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: BudGirl on May 11, 2017, 08:28:11 am
This is now.  Wait until next year, when the polls are showing a consistent swing in one direction and they're getting savaged at town halls and debates.  They will wrap Trumpcare around Donald's neck ("we didn't want to...he made us do it!") and then lob him into the Potomac.

The Saturday Night Massacre was in October 1973.  Nixon wasn't forced out until August 1974, just ahead of the midterms...

I think last November proved it is not wise to assume the American public will do what you are thinking it will do
.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on May 11, 2017, 08:51:40 am
I think last November proved it is not wise to assume the American public will do what you are thinking it will do
.

Or that the American public is thinking.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on May 11, 2017, 09:14:06 am
I think last November proved it is not wise to assume the American public will do what you are thinking it will do
.

The Trump supporters simply don't care. They don't care if he's passing nuclear secrets to the Russians, Hillary used a private email server. Mexicans are taking their jobs (well not *their* jobs, but I'm sure someone has had their job stolen by a Mexican). And most importantly, Trump is rich, he doesn't need the Presidential salary.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: BudGirl on May 11, 2017, 09:31:24 am
The Trump supporters simply don't care. They don't care if he's passing nuclear secrets to the Russians, Hillary used a private email server. Mexicans are taking their jobs (well not *their* jobs, but I'm sure someone has had their job stolen by a Mexican). And most importantly, Trump is rich, he doesn't need the Presidential salary.

That seems to be the thoughts of his supporters.  I've seen the line that Trump is still cleaning house of all the bad people.   Trump is making American something again.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on May 11, 2017, 10:04:50 am
Interesting aside: the Russian press were allowed to bring their cameras, camera bags and a raft of electronic equipment into the Oval Office to shoot the overly-happy handshakes between Trump, Lavrov and Kislyak.

So that's the Oval bugged to shit, then.

And now the White House is complaining that the Russians "tricked" them by releasing the photos to their state media.  What a bunch of buffoons. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 11, 2017, 10:50:07 am
I think last November proved it is not wise to assume the American public will do what you are thinking it will do
.

Obama "fucked" with people's healthcare (by giving them greater and cheaper access to it), and was rewarded with a red wave against him that was historic.

Republicans are now actually fucking with people's healthcare and, if they get this bill passed, the public will notice the change in 2018.  Plenty of time to work themselves into a 2010-style lather about if before the next elections.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 11, 2017, 10:53:51 am
And now the White House is complaining that the Russians "tricked" them by releasing the photos to their state media.  What a bunch of buffoons.

Also, the unprecedented move of giving Lavrov - the Foreign Minister - the privilege of an Oval Office audience with the President (he would normally meet only with his counterpart - the Secretary of State) was granted because Putin asked for it.

So Putin asked Trump to grant Lavrov an audience in the Oval Office specifically, and Lavrov brought in his personal photographer, who brought in all his electronic photographic equipment.  If this was in a Mission: Impossible movie, you'd laugh at the stupidity.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 11, 2017, 10:56:50 am
The Trump supporters simply don't care. They don't care if he's passing nuclear secrets to the Russians, Hillary used a private email server. Mexicans are taking their jobs (well not *their* jobs, but I'm sure someone has had their job stolen by a Mexican). And most importantly, Trump is rich, he doesn't need the Presidential salary.

They will notice when they're kicked off Medicare and/or have their premiums jacked to the stratosphere.  Trump die-hards are only about 25-35% of the population.  They are also the same 25-35% who would be worst hit by the AHCA.  The AARP sent out a missive to its 38 million members, telling them which Congresspeople voted for it, so they'd know who to blame.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on May 11, 2017, 10:57:48 am
Obama "fucked" with people's healthcare (by giving them greater and cheaper access to it), and was rewarded with a red wave against him that was historic.

Republicans are now actually fucking with people's healthcare and, if they get this bill passed, the public will notice the change in 2018.  Plenty of time to work themselves into a 2010-style lather about if before the next elections.

Not for nothing, but a lot of the rage over the ACA is that prices went up. Telling people they got cheaper and greater access to health care where I live is a quick way to get laughed out of the room.

Now, it could certainly be that their insurance is of a superior quality than it was previously, and it could be that they live in a state that has intentionally done everything it could to cripple the ACA, but those are hard arguments to make persuasively to hard-working people who are struggling to make ends meet. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Waldo on May 11, 2017, 12:06:12 pm
Not for nothing, but a lot of the rage over the ACA is that prices went up. Telling people they got cheaper and greater access to health care where I live is a quick way to get laughed out of the room.

Yeah, let's not pretend that the ACA was roses for everybody.  My deductibles skyrocketed and other benefits decreased because they were too expensive for my employer.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Ty in Tampa on May 11, 2017, 12:52:29 pm
I'm one of those who did not benefit from the ACA and in fact, only saw my premiums rise about 35%. However, the fact that my girlfriend, brother and many friends who either could not get or afford to get health insurance-but under the ACA were able to, made me realize that it's a positive worth paying for. Once they have that ability taken away, those who decided that was a good idea will realize what they have done.

Of course, we all know why insurance rates went up and it had nothing to do with the ACA.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 11, 2017, 01:36:23 pm
Not for nothing, but a lot of the rage over the ACA is that prices went up. Telling people they got cheaper and greater access to health care where I live is a quick way to get laughed out of the room.

Now, it could certainly be that their insurance is of a superior quality than it was previously, and it could be that they live in a state that has intentionally done everything it could to cripple the ACA, but those are hard arguments to make persuasively to hard-working people who are struggling to make ends meet.


Well if you weren't on a large employer's program, and you had a pre-existing condition, you had nothing before and something afterwards.  The messaging around the ACA was horrible, but it was also twisted by the opposition who also lied brazenly ("death panels"?).  Of course, saying that "everybody who has something is going to pay more so that people who have nothing can get something" is not going to work because that makes us simultaneously communists and fascists or something.

The red states - ironically the ones with the most to gain from the ACA - mostly opted out.  It wasn't an option in the original bill, but Texas sued and won the ability for red states to double-fuck their citizens purely for party political reasons.  Still, even in Texas, I was out of work for 6 months recently and my ACA plan was with the same carrier and same deductible as my prior employer's plan, but was notably cheaper than my employer's plan even before I got a subsidy.  So Texas, at least, has a decent exchange available through healthcare.gov.  At least for now...
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 11, 2017, 01:37:53 pm
Of course, we all know why insurance rates went up and it had nothing to do with the ACA.

Muslims?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Ty in Tampa on May 11, 2017, 01:39:28 pm
Muslims?

The terrorists won.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 12, 2017, 08:05:32 am
So...

"When I decided to just do it [fire Comey], I said to myself, I said you know, this Russia thing with Trump and Russia is a made up story." - Donald J. Trump

“We want this to come to its conclusion, we want it to come to its conclusion with integrity.  And we think that we’ve actually, by removing Director Comey, taken steps to make that happen.” - Deputy Press Secretary Sarah Sanders

Isn't firing an investigator who's investigating you to end the investigation into you the classic definition of obstruction of justice?  You know, the thing that was the 1st article of impeachment against Nixon and the 3rd against Clinton?  Day #113.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on May 12, 2017, 09:36:22 am
So...

"When I decided to just do it [fire Comey], I said to myself, I said you know, this Russia thing with Trump and Russia is a made up story." - Donald J. Trump

“We want this to come to its conclusion, we want it to come to its conclusion with integrity.  And we think that we’ve actually, by removing Director Comey, taken steps to make that happen.” - Deputy Press Secretary Sarah Sanders

Isn't firing an investigator who's investigating you to end the investigation into you the classic definition of obstruction of justice?  You know, the thing that was the 1st article of impeachment against Nixon and the 3rd against Clinton?  Day #113.

It's also the third person he's fired that was supervising an investigation into him. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 12, 2017, 01:25:32 pm
It's also the third person he's fired that was supervising an investigation into him.

Trump threatened Comey on Twitter this morning.  He said that Comey better think twice about leaking anything if there are "tapes" of their conversation.  (1)  That's more obstruction of justice; and (b) there are tapes...?  Tapes that can be subpoenaed?  Interesting.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 12, 2017, 01:45:37 pm
This (https://twitter.com/ChrisMurphyCT/status/863064487808708608) is awesome!

Quote from: @ChrisMurphyCT
Law firm @POTUS used to show he has no ties to Russia was named Russia Law Firm of the Year for their extensive ties to Russia. Unreal.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on May 14, 2017, 04:13:07 pm
Excellent piece in the New Yorker (http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/my-nineteenth-presidential-election-and-the-most-important) by the 96-year old baseball writer.

Harkening  back to the impetus for this thread, Popovich with some strong comments to the press before today's game: https://www.google.com/amp/www.mercurynews.com/2017/05/14/an-hour-before-tipoff-against-warriors-spurs-gregg-popovich-takes-donald-trump-to-the-rack/amp/
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on May 15, 2017, 04:39:12 pm
Trump revealed highly classified information to Russian foreign minister and ambassador (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-revealed-highly-classified-information-to-russian-foreign-minister-and-ambassador/2017/05/15/530c172a-3960-11e7-9e48-c4f199710b69_story.html?tid=sm_tw&tid=sm_tw&tid=sm_tw&tid=sm_tw&utm_term=.e4c694de249a)

But he didn't do it by email, so it's all good.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on May 15, 2017, 05:12:05 pm
Trump revealed highly classified information to Russian foreign minister and ambassador (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-revealed-highly-classified-information-to-russian-foreign-minister-and-ambassador/2017/05/15/530c172a-3960-11e7-9e48-c4f199710b69_story.html?tid=sm_tw&tid=sm_tw&tid=sm_tw&tid=sm_tw&utm_term=.e4c694de249a)

But he didn't do it by email, so it's all good.

Of all the ridiculous twists and turns this administration has taken this was the most predictable. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on May 15, 2017, 05:52:36 pm
Of all the ridiculous twists and turns this administration has taken this was the most predictable.

Well said. It didn't even matter that it was the Russians. Dude just doesn't have a filter. And his is probably the one job in the world for which a finely-calibrated filter is most necessary.

Thanks, electoral college!
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on May 15, 2017, 06:07:34 pm
Well said. It didn't even matter that it was the Russians. Dude just doesn't have a filter. And his is probably the one job in the world for which a finely-calibrated filter is most necessary.

Thanks, electoral college!

Don't blame the electoral college. It's express purpose is to reduce the chances of electing a populist yahoo with no skill to be President. Blame the idiots who voted for him. I'm still gobsmacked that Trump got more than one vote.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on May 15, 2017, 06:21:21 pm
Don't blame the electoral college. It's express purpose is to reduce the chances of electing a populist yahoo with no skill to be President. Blame the idiots who voted for him. I'm still gobsmacked that Trump got more than one vote.

Yes, and it expressly failed its express purpose. I can blame it. There's blame enough to go around.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on May 15, 2017, 06:29:06 pm
Yes, and it expressly failed its express purpose. I can blame it. There's blame enough to go around.

Yeah but was a problem with execution, not a design flaw. Operator error.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on May 15, 2017, 06:40:22 pm
Yeah but was a problem with execution, not a design flaw. Operator error.

In this case, I was laying the blame on the electors who together comprise the electoral college; the operators, not the design.

That said, it is increasingly difficult for me to make a case for the design. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: moriartp on May 15, 2017, 06:58:47 pm
The EC gets more and more "broken" the smaller the House is. Increase the number of House seats to the Constitutional limit and there'll be less disparity between PV and EC results. It's politically impossible, sure, but maybe slightly less impossible than an amendment to do away with the EC entirely.

Edit: the Constitutional limit would be madness. Not that big.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on May 15, 2017, 08:00:42 pm
Of all the ridiculous twists and turns this administration has taken this was the most predictable.

There is a non-zero chance of President Trump telling someone the nuclear codes just to show he knows them.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: austro on May 15, 2017, 08:43:01 pm
There is a non-zero chance of President Trump telling someone the nuclear codes just to show he knows them.

"Come here, let me show you this suitcase."
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on May 15, 2017, 10:02:03 pm

There is a non-zero chance of President Trump telling someone the nuclear codes just to show he knows them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's the perfect marriage of narcissism, incompetence, vengefulness and inherited privilege. The trump wheelhouse.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on May 16, 2017, 07:22:29 am
I bet Trump farts in the presence of women and then says, "you're welcome."
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on May 16, 2017, 07:47:10 am
and then says, "you're welcome."

right after five lackeys rushed out there to deny he did it
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on May 16, 2017, 08:06:52 am
He has really ugly feet but he still has his lackeys clip his toenails.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 16, 2017, 12:44:50 pm
Don't blame the electoral college. It's express purpose is to reduce the chances of electing a populist yahoo with no skill to be President. Blame the idiots who voted for him. I'm still gobsmacked that Trump got more than one vote.

Well the electors are supposed to sit back and take a good, long look at the candidate and decide whether it's a good idea to confirm him or her for the job.  Now that the electors are all partisan loyalists, it's abandoned its function of being a check against the stupidity of the masses.

So, yes, the electoral college is to blame.  If it were gone, the popular vote would be the simple test and Trump would be left tweeting from the crapper about Chafetz' latest kangaroo court investigation into President Clinton.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 16, 2017, 12:46:03 pm
There is a non-zero chance of President Trump telling someone the nuclear codes just to show he knows them.

After which Spicer will tweet them out.  And again the next day.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 16, 2017, 12:48:31 pm
"Come here, let me show you this suitcase."

Patrons at Mar-a-Fiasco were allowed to take photos with the serviceman holding the nuclear football.  They also were allowed to share these photos on social media, along with the serviceman's name.

Whatever insanely fucked-up scenario you can imagine, this administration has already beaten you to it.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 16, 2017, 02:07:39 pm
The EC gets more and more "broken" the smaller the House is. Increase the number of House seats to the Constitutional limit and there'll be less disparity between PV and EC results. It's politically impossible, sure, but maybe slightly less impossible than an amendment to do away with the EC entirely.

Edit: the Constitutional limit would be madness. Not that big.

Trump wants to get rid of some of the archaic practices of government, like the filibuster.  Cool, let's do the Electoral College too while we're at it!  The small states already have an exaggerated representation in government by dint of having 2 Senators; they do not need a thumb on the scale of the Presidency too.  It's a national office, it should be a national popular vote*.

* If nothing else, it would've avoided the whole Bush v. Gore debacle as Gore won the popular vote regardless to Florida's questionable results.  We're just lucky that there wasn't anything cataclysmic that occurred in the first year of Bush's first term for him to mess up that would've been handled completely differently if Gore had been put in the Oval. Thanks Electoral College!
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on May 16, 2017, 04:43:42 pm
Comey wrote a memo detailing that President Trump asked him to drop the investigation into Flynn.

I'm no lawyer, but I believe FBI agents' contemporaneous notes are considered admissible in court.

What I do know is that President Trump is too stupid to understand that a lifelong FBI man would know how to cover his ass.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on May 16, 2017, 05:20:57 pm
Comey wrote a memo detailing that President Trump asked him to drop the investigation into Flynn.

I'm no lawyer, but I believe FBI agents' contemporaneous notes are considered admissible in court.

What I do know is that President Trump is too stupid to understand that a lifelong FBI man would know how to cover his ass.


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The problem isn't the admissibility it's the court, which is congress.  You are counting on Republicans in congress to suddenly develop morals, ethics, and principles. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: WVastro on May 16, 2017, 05:46:08 pm
I think the most fascinating part of these past few months (could easily substitute horrifying for fascinating) is how hard it is to get any republican politician - or voter for that matter - to admit that there just might be something amiss. I'm genuinely curious what it will actually take.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 16, 2017, 05:52:16 pm
I think the most fascinating part of these past few months (could easily substitute horrifying for fascinating) is how hard it is to get any republican politician - or voter for that matter - to admit that there just might be something amiss. I'm genuinely curious what it will actually take.

Ironically, possibly the most egregious thing he could do - nuke someone - would strengthen his position with supporters (and some neutrals.

He joked that he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and his poll numbers would go up.  He's not wrong. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on May 16, 2017, 05:54:12 pm
I think the most fascinating part of these past few months (could easily substitute horrifying for fascinating) is how hard it is to get any republican politician - or voter for that matter - to admit that there just might be something amiss. I'm genuinely curious what it will actually take.

I'm working from memory, so forgive me if I'm slightly off on the numbers, but I thought I heard that 58% of republicans still believed that the media had focused too much on Watergate the day Nixon resigned.

As our founders predicted, parties have proven a poison to democracy.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on May 16, 2017, 06:03:10 pm
He joked that he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and his poll numbers would go up.  He's not wrong.

Someone far cleverer than me joked that from a Chekhovian point of view this has to end with him shooting someone. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on May 16, 2017, 06:14:30 pm
Someone far cleverer than me joked that from a Chekhovian point of view this has to end with him shooting someone.

I can't laugh at this. Nixon stepped down voluntarily. I just don't see this President doing the same.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on May 16, 2017, 06:31:20 pm
Someone far cleverer than me joked that from a Chekhovian point of view this has to end with him shooting someone.

I might argue that a Chekhovian reading would not specify exactly who gets shot, simply that someone inevitably will.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: austro on May 16, 2017, 07:25:43 pm
I might argue that a Chekhovian reading would not specify exactly who gets shot, simply that someone inevitably will.

Probably that poor sap who provided the intel about the laptop bombs.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 16, 2017, 08:54:02 pm
Someone far cleverer than me joked that from a Chekhovian point of view this has to end with him shooting someone.

I vote Bannon
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: WVastro on May 16, 2017, 09:19:41 pm
How about a new contest?

The person that calls the correct number of pages in this thread before the inevitable impeachment gets a MAGA hat.

We can call it "Race for the Imp."

I call 57.

Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on May 17, 2017, 08:21:58 am
These people pushing for a Trump impeachment must really like Pence. Or Ryan, or Hatch...
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: BudGirl on May 17, 2017, 08:33:54 am
The problem isn't the admissibility it's the court, which is congress.  You are counting on Republicans in congress to suddenly develop morals, ethics, and principles. 

Unfortunately, I am not counting on them doing that.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on May 17, 2017, 09:23:34 am
Unfortunately, I am not counting on them doing that.

The 25th Amendment solution seems much more likely. And maybe more likely than that, a duck out the back from the principal screwball a'la Nixon.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 17, 2017, 09:25:16 am
The problem isn't the admissibility it's the court, which is congress.  You are counting on Republicans in congress to suddenly develop morals, ethics, and principles.

"I think we could do with a little less drama from the White House on a lot of things so we can focus on our agenda, which is deregulation, tax reform, repealing and replacing Obamacare,"  - Mitch McConnell

This tells you all you need to know.  They want the monkey in the Oval to stop flinging faeces long enough to pass their pet agenda items.  After that, they'll turn on him so fast it'll turn him white.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on May 17, 2017, 09:29:17 am
These people pushing for a Trump impeachment must really like Pence. Or Ryan, or Hatch...

I don't like Pence. But I don't think he'll destroy the country and/or world.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: BizidyDizidy on May 17, 2017, 09:45:22 am
I don't like Pence. But I don't think he'll destroy the country and/or world.


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Obviously you haven't been watching Handmaiden's Tale
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on May 17, 2017, 10:22:40 am
Obviously you haven't been watching Handmaiden's Tale

No, I've been watching baseball.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on May 17, 2017, 03:18:11 pm
The 25th Amendment solution seems much more likely. And maybe more likely than that, a duck out the back from the principal screwball a'la Nixon.

The 25th amendment requires Pence, a majority of the cabinet and 290 congressmen (which is 97 Republicans plus all 193 Democrats) to all declare Trump "incapacitated."  Not only is that never going to happen, it probably shouldn't happen absent an actual physical incapacity. It's basically a paper coup. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on May 17, 2017, 03:19:10 pm
I don't like Pence. But I don't think he'll destroy the country and/or world.

Only the gay and female and non-evangelical christian parts. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: BudGirl on May 17, 2017, 03:29:39 pm
Only the gay and female and non-evangelical christian parts. 

I just can't go to Opening Day anymore if Pence becomes President.  And some may like that.  But if I can't go then I'm not organizing.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on May 17, 2017, 03:48:09 pm
Tumescent pygophile.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Navin R Johnson on May 17, 2017, 04:01:33 pm
I assumed President Trump would be horrific, he has lived up to my expectations and then some. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on May 17, 2017, 04:05:16 pm
Tumescent pygophile.

Far too much equality and open-mindedness in pygophilia for that creep.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on May 17, 2017, 06:00:06 pm
Former FBI director Robert Mueller appointed as special prosecutor to lead Trump-Russia probe. (https://apnews.com/324cc49ac17c431682cb496f1e7e85c4/Former-FBI-Director-Mueller-to-lead-Trump-Russia-probe?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=AP)

The appointment gives Mueller, who led the FBI through the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks and served under presidential administrations of both parties, sweeping powers to investigate whether Trump campaign associates colluded with the Kremlin to influence the outcome in his behalf, as well as the authority to prosecute any crimes uncovered during the probe. The broad mandate, beyond any specific Trump-Russia connection, also covers “any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation.”

Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on May 17, 2017, 06:10:58 pm
Former FBI director Robert Mueller appointed as special prosecutor to lead Trump-Russia probe. (https://apnews.com/324cc49ac17c431682cb496f1e7e85c4/Former-FBI-Director-Mueller-to-lead-Trump-Russia-probe?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=AP)

The appointment gives Mueller, who led the FBI through the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks and served under presidential administrations of both parties, sweeping powers to investigate whether Trump campaign associates colluded with the Kremlin to influence the outcome in his behalf, as well as the authority to prosecute any crimes uncovered during the probe. The broad mandate, beyond any specific Trump-Russia connection, also covers “any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation.”

I read that last sentence to mean that if he gets even the slightest whiff of anything on Hillary, the DNC, or Seth Rich he's to go after it.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on May 17, 2017, 06:36:20 pm
Tumescent pygophile.

They call me Rumptrump man
'Cause that's my name
I'm a butt connoisseur and I have no shame
I rate 'em on size and shape and such
But the final test is the test of touch
I'm a true blue pro no average joe
I keep my eyes open everywhere I go
So if you're talkin' 'bout chicks and what they got down below
Just ask 'ole Trump 'cause I'm in the know

When butts are headed in my direction
I slip around back for a closer inspection
I size them all up with no sign of detection
And I swoop on in and I make a selection
Some big some small some ain't quite round
Some as big as me nearly pound for pound
Some smooth as silk with no sign of wear
And some got pimples and some got hair

Let me tell you 'bout my trip to the south of France
The women down there they never wear pants
By hook by crook or happenstance
I'll be headed back just give me half a chance
When I'm lying on the beach I couldn't help but stare
At all the merchandise the girls had laid bare
Lying on my front so no one could see
Those bare bottom bitches put a boner on me
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on May 18, 2017, 09:22:16 am
The 25th amendment requires Pence, a majority of the cabinet and 290 congressmen (which is 97 Republicans plus all 193 Democrats) to all declare Trump "incapacitated."  Not only is that never going to happen, it probably shouldn't happen absent an actual physical incapacity. It's basically a paper coup.

I was just saying it's more likely than a Republican congress impeaching him.

I share your skepticism, but I wouldn't say "never." And while I agree in principle that it shouldn't be used under circumstances approaching normal, these aren't those circumstances. How much more incompetent flailing about will it take before the president is broadly and legitimately viewed as a clear and present danger to the country and the world?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: BudGirl on May 18, 2017, 09:37:58 am
I was just saying it's more likely than a Republican congress impeaching him.

I share your skepticism, but I wouldn't say "never." And while I agree in principle that it shouldn't be used under circumstances approaching normal, these aren't those circumstances. How much more incompetent flailing about will it take before the president is broadly and legitimately viewed as a clear and present danger to the country and the world?

You all really need to understand there are people in this country that do not view him as a clear and present danger.  Those people voted him into the office.  Seriously, remember that.  I honestly do not know what it will take for them to believe the truth because they now think everything is fake news.  It's a pretty messed up world.

Case in point, I know someone that posted crap about there being an abortion performed in the White House under the Obama administration.  I do not for a second believe it to be true.  And if it were true, someone should go to jail because that is a serious violation of HIPAA laws.  These people will believe anything and everything they are hearing that is negative about the Clintons, Obamas, and Democrats in general.  It is insane. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Navin R Johnson on May 18, 2017, 09:42:56 am
That is the saddest thing, these morons decrying FAKE NEWS, live, eat and breath a constant stream of actual fake news.  See the latest with the Seth Rich BS.   People realized about 20 years ago you could get really rich pushing boogeyman stories.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on May 18, 2017, 09:50:02 am
You all really need to understand there are people in this country that do not view him as a clear and present danger.  Those people voted him into the office.  Seriously, remember that.  I honestly do not know what it will take for them to believe the truth because they now think everything is fake news.  It's a pretty messed up world.

Case in point, I know someone that posted crap about there being an abortion performed in the White House under the Obama administration.  I do not for a second believe it to be true.  And if it were true, someone should go to jail because that is a serious violation of HIPAA laws.  These people will believe anything and everything they are hearing that is negative about the Clintons, Obamas, and Democrats in general.  It is insane.

Oh I have no illusions on that score. I'm not talking about his electorate. I'm talking about the Washington GOP.

They'll face a choice soon where they have to either stay on the scandal treadmill, not accomplishing anything their donor class wants them to accomplish before quite probably losing their advantage in the midterms, or exit Trump stage right and at least get something done first.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on May 18, 2017, 10:04:28 am
That is the saddest thing, these morons decrying FAKE NEWS, live, eat and breath a constant stream of actual fake news.  See the latest with the Seth Rich BS.
I've leaned on this observation in trying to decode trump or at least figure out what the truth is: focus on what he accuses other of as that is what he is likely guilty of.

As to Budgirl's observation, I am more optimistic.  I thankfully don't know a lot of folks who peddle shit stories, and if they do, it is only to get a rise from me.  Most of the support I know of Trump is about an inch deep.  These people will throw his election and his clownshit in my face, but they don't actually care, or identify with him.  They didn't put signs in their yards, or bumper stickers on their cars.  Below the surface, they know he is a turd and they won't squawk too much when he is finally put down.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 18, 2017, 10:52:43 am
You all really need to understand there are people in this country that do not view him as a clear and present danger.  Those people voted him into the office.  Seriously, remember that.  I honestly do not know what it will take for them to believe the truth because they now think everything is fake news.  It's a pretty messed up world.

Case in point, I know someone that posted crap about there being an abortion performed in the White House under the Obama administration.  I do not for a second believe it to be true.  And if it were true, someone should go to jail because that is a serious violation of HIPAA laws.  These people will believe anything and everything they are hearing that is negative about the Clintons, Obamas, and Democrats in general.  It is insane.

Two words:  Pizza Gate

The looney right - including Michael Flynn and his son - pushed this insane theory that Hillary was connected to a child sex ring that operated out of a pizza joint in NYC.  People believed it, as ridiculous as it may sound.  They believed it to the point that a man invaded that pizza joint and shot up the place demanding answers and trying to free the child sex slaves being held in the back.

It's funny until someone gets shot.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 18, 2017, 10:58:01 am
Yesterday Trump gave a commencement speech that was all about him.  Also,  it was reported that Trump World knew that Flynn was under investigation before he was nominated to the NSA position.  Also, we found out that the Trump campaign had at least 18 separate communications with Russian officials during the campaign.  And we found out that the FBI has appointed former director Mueller to oversee the Trump investigation prompting the orange one to have a hissy fit on Twitter.

Yesterday.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on May 18, 2017, 11:04:46 am
Yesterday Trump gave a commencement speech that was all about him.

It wasn't mostly about him. I watched most of it, waiting for the other shoe to drop, but he kept to the script until I guess the very end. Still, there's no need to exaggerate. He's pretty much got that market cornered.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on May 19, 2017, 06:48:47 pm
Action: Trump tweets that Comey better hope there are no tapes
Reaction: Comey leaks memo to Times

Action: Trump's "nut job" story confirmed by WH
Reaction: Comey agrees to testify in open session

Comey is playing chess. Trump is sticking the checkers pieces up his nose.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on May 19, 2017, 08:31:38 pm
Trump is the United States' Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, an idiot, a laughable lunatic, that sinister, reactionary forces are only all too happy to wind up and let go.

This foreign trip is going to be great. NATO, Israel, Saudi Arabia. The Vatican. What could go wrong?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: austro on May 19, 2017, 08:35:15 pm
This foreign trip is going to be great. NATO, Israel, Saudi Arabia. The Vatican. What could go wrong?

I was talking about this with my wife. I wonder if they're going to let him appear in any situations where he might have to answer questions extemporaneously. That could be extremely amusing.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 19, 2017, 09:39:19 pm
This foreign trip is going to be great. NATO, Israel, Saudi Arabia. The Vatican. What could go wrong?

They could name Jared as a person of interest in the criminal,inal investigation into Russian election hacking?

Oh wait, that already happened.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 19, 2017, 09:40:38 pm
I was talking about this with my wife. I wonder if they're going to let him appear in any situations where he might have to answer questions extemporaneously. That could be extremely amusing.

The other countries have already taken steps to keep presentations short and use lots of pictures.  I am not joking.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: austro on May 19, 2017, 10:00:39 pm
The other countries have already taken steps to keep presentations short and use lots of pictures.  I am not joking.

Oh, I'm aware of that (and aware of how embarrassing it is for our country).  But I'm still hoping for some Q&A sessions.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Navin R Johnson on May 20, 2017, 11:03:39 pm
Mr Bad Ass USA USA USA. Refuses to say radical Islam while in Saudi, and his wife doesn't wear a scarf.  My god foxnews and the other idiots who support this oaf must be pissed......nope. Pathetic.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on May 22, 2017, 11:53:34 am
President Trump today, to the Israeli press, made clear that "I never said Israel" in his meeting with the Russians.

So the President denied something that nobody said he had done, and in doing so confirmed the source of the classified information that he disclosed.

Just unreal.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Navin R Johnson on May 22, 2017, 12:22:24 pm
Not really, he is an idiot.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 23, 2017, 10:04:37 am
Watergate played out over a long time because there was no "smoking gun" to show that Nixon himself was in on the cover up.  That was until the White House tapes were finally coughed up and there he was, Nixon instructing HR Halderman to tell the CIA to get the FBI to back off the Watergate investigation.  As well as being a smoking gun, it was the straw that broke the back of Republican support for Nixon, and he resigned days later.

So now strong reporting (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-asked-intelligence-chiefs-to-push-back-against-fbi-collusion-probe-after-comey-revealed-its-existence/2017/05/22/394933bc-3f10-11e7-9869-bac8b446820a_story.html) claims that Trump asked the Director of National Intelligence and the Director of the NSA to intervene with the FBI to shut down the investigation into Mike "5th Amendment" Flynn.

Seriously, this is one of the only scandals in Washington not to get a "...gate" nickname, and it's basically a shitty remake of the original.  The Nixon era Republicans were right on top of a mid-term election, which may have stiffened their spines, whereas this generation may not yet be feeling the pressure of impending unemployment.  But we have an exact precedent here, so the ending is known, just not the timeline.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on May 23, 2017, 10:15:18 am
Watergate played out over a long time because there was no "smoking gun" to show that Nixon himself was in on the cover up.  That was until the White House tapes were finally coughed up and there he was, Nixon instructing HR Halderman to tell the CIA to get the FBI to back off the Watergate investigation.  As well as being a smoking gun, it was the straw that broke the back of Republican support for Nixon, and he resigned days later.

So now strong reporting (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-asked-intelligence-chiefs-to-push-back-against-fbi-collusion-probe-after-comey-revealed-its-existence/2017/05/22/394933bc-3f10-11e7-9869-bac8b446820a_story.html) claims that Trump asked the Director of National Intelligence and the Director of the NSA to intervene with the FBI to shut down the investigation into Mike "5th Amendment" Flynn.

Seriously, this is one of the only scandals in Washington not to get a "...gate" nickname, and it's basically a shitty remake of the original.  The Nixon era Republicans were right on top of a mid-term election, which may have stiffened their spines, whereas this generation may not yet be feeling the pressure of impending unemployment.  But we have an exact precedent here, so the ending is known, just not the timeline.

Trump has already stipulated to firing Comey to stop the investigation.  He gave the smoking gun directly to Lester Holt. 

Obviously admitting to an established "high crime and misdemeanor" is not enough for current republicans to suddenly develop backbone or principle.  It's going to have to get a lot worse, and fortunately I think we can count on Trump and his legion of buffoons to continue to stumble across many more legal lines.  The Ryans and McConnells and McCarthys and Rubios deserve to be dragged down with him. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on May 23, 2017, 10:53:22 am
Seriously, this is one of the only scandals in Washington not to get a "...gate" nickname, and it's basically a shitty remake of the original. 

I'm hoping future scandals are all (subject)"-a-Lago"
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 23, 2017, 10:53:26 am
Trump has already stipulated to firing Comey to stop the investigation.  He gave the smoking gun directly to Lester Holt. 

Obviously admitting to an established "high crime and misdemeanor" is not enough for current republicans to suddenly develop backbone or principle.  It's going to have to get a lot worse, and fortunately I think we can count on Trump and his legion of buffoons to continue to stumble across many more legal lines.  The Ryans and McConnells and McCarthys and Rubios deserve to be dragged down with him.


Yes they do.  Right now, they're letting a criminal enterprise operate out of the Oval Office just to give them enough time to pass deregulation, health reform and tax cuts.  It's about as craven as politics gets, which is pretty damning and - yes - they all deserve to suffer the vicious punishment of a high paid job in the private sector come next November.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 23, 2017, 11:27:42 am
Oh FFS!

When Obama visited the Israel's Holocaust Memorial in 2013, he wrote a note - as is tradition - in the book of remembrance:

Quote from: Obama
I am grateful to Yad Vashem and all of those responsible for this remarkable institution. At a time of great peril and promise, war and strife, we are blessed to have such a powerful reminder of man’s potential for great evil, but also our own capacity to rise up from the tragedy and remake our world,  Let our children come here, and know their history, so that they can add their voices to proclaim ‘never again.’  And may we remember those who perished, not only as victims, but also as individuals who hoped and loved and dreamed like us, and who have become symbols for the human spirit.  It is humbling and inspiring to visit and remember the visionary who began the remarkable establishment of the State of Israel. May our two countries possess the same vision and will to secure peace and prosperity for future generations.


Trump was there earlier today, and also left a note in the book:

Quote from: Trump
It is a great honor to be here with all of my friends.  So amazing + will never forget!

Basically, Trump just tweeted the Holocaust Memorial in Israel.  Yes, it's under 140 characters.  Yes, he was too lazy to spell out "and".
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on May 23, 2017, 11:34:54 am
I'm hoping future scandals are all (subject)"-a-Lago"

Oh Lord let this happen.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 23, 2017, 01:52:42 pm
I'm hoping future scandals are all (subject)"-a-Lago"

Meanwhile, God is trying to erase that STD factory (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/05/22/sinkhole-forms-in-front-of-mar-a-lago-metaphors-pour-in/?utm_term=.b2c4d193630b) from His good, green earth.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 23, 2017, 04:25:34 pm
"I encountered and am aware of information and intelligence that revealed contacts and interactions between Russian officials and U.S. persons involved in the Trump campaign."

 - Former CIA Director John Brennan
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: moriartp on May 23, 2017, 04:55:33 pm
Meanwhile, God is trying to erase that STD factory (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/05/22/sinkhole-forms-in-front-of-mar-a-lago-metaphors-pour-in/?utm_term=.b2c4d193630b) from His good, green earth.
That strikes me more as the work of The Guy Downstairs trying to claim what's rightfully his.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on May 24, 2017, 12:09:37 am
Basically, Trump just tweeted the Holocaust Memorial in Israel.  Yes, it's under 140 characters.  Yes, he was too lazy to spell out "and".

Did he add "have a great summer...Westdale High Football Roolz!"?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Nate in IA on May 24, 2017, 07:41:25 am
And now for a different opinion (https://www.jerrypournelle.com/chaosmanor/recovery-opinionanalysis-on-comey-and-draining-the-swamp-a-note-on-education/)...
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on May 24, 2017, 07:51:38 am
Jesus.  Don't you people take responsibility for anything?  This line of crap (yes, I didn't read the whole thing) and that stupid fucking murder story.  When I was a kid, conservatives at least had some balls, now they are emasculated, grievance-filled parodies of what they used to decry. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on May 24, 2017, 07:54:32 am
And now for a different opinion (https://www.jerrypournelle.com/chaosmanor/recovery-opinionanalysis-on-comey-and-draining-the-swamp-a-note-on-education/)...

Serious question: why would you link to psychotic ramblings that get basic facts wrong?


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on May 24, 2017, 09:54:28 am
And now for a different opinion (https://www.jerrypournelle.com/chaosmanor/recovery-opinionanalysis-on-comey-and-draining-the-swamp-a-note-on-education/)...

I don't think paranoid delusional ramblings that have no legitimate basis in fact qualifies as an "opinion."  But thank you for a peek into the window of crazy.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on May 24, 2017, 10:09:39 am
I didn't think he was being serious. I thought it was more of a "and now for a look into the loony-bin" offering.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on May 24, 2017, 10:14:21 am
I didn't think he was being serious. I thought it was more of a "and now for a look into the loony-bin" offering.

That's how I took it as well.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Nate in IA on May 24, 2017, 10:24:33 am
I knew you guys would zone in on his statement at the beginning of the article.    Facts seem to be hard to come by these days don't they.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 24, 2017, 10:26:19 am
And now for a different opinion (https://www.jerrypournelle.com/chaosmanor/recovery-opinionanalysis-on-comey-and-draining-the-swamp-a-note-on-education/)...

This is the problem with much of Trumpville - they're operating under a separate, completely flexible, set of "facts".  This assertion, for example:  "Don’t believe the media narrative from the left that it was an attempt to silence Comey from some investigation into Trump."  No, I don't believe "the left" in the case, I believe Trump, and what he said to Lester Holt on camera and what Trump's White House released that he said to the Russians in the Oval Office.

This is the legacy of Roger Ailes.

Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on May 24, 2017, 10:29:13 am
Facts seem to be hard to come by these days don't they.

Nope.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on May 24, 2017, 10:30:46 am
I knew you guys would zone in on his statement at the beginning of the article.    Facts seem to be hard to come by these days don't they.

Facts are only hard to come by if you willfully ignore them, like the idiot that you linked to.  Putting aside the substance, what's the format supposed to be?  "I am heavily medicated and literally beset by fever dreams and don't trust my own thoughts, but allow me to copy and paste an unidentified email full of paranoid ramblings."

A year ago I would have just assumed it was a parody. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 24, 2017, 11:34:14 am
Back in the world of real news, the Trump budget, released yesterday, relies upon a $2 trillion math/logic error to work.  That's trillion with a "T".  Times two.

This is not normal.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on May 24, 2017, 11:42:57 am
Back in the world of real news, the Trump budget, released yesterday, relies upon a $2 trillion math/logic error to work.  That's trillion with a "T".  Times two.

This is not normal.

Arithmetical errors are just different opinions, snowflake. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: astrosfan76 on May 24, 2017, 12:06:21 pm
Back in the world of real news, the Trump budget, released yesterday, relies upon a $2 trillion math/logic error to work.  That's trillion with a "T".  Times two.

This is not normal.

That's bad even by Bobby Jindal's standards (http://www.salon.com/2015/06/15/bobby_jindals_dishonest_scheme_even_fellow_republicans_are_embarrassed_by_this_one/).  (Warning: Grover Norquist sighting)
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on May 24, 2017, 12:34:37 pm
Arithmetical errors are just different opinions, snowflake.

Alternative math.

I bet Stephen Miller finds a way to pin this on Common Core.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on May 24, 2017, 03:15:39 pm
Alternative math.


We can't even make cynical jokes anymore.  Trump Team Stands by Budget’s $2 Trillion Math Error (http://www.nbcnews.com/business/economy/trump-team-stands-budget-s-2-trillion-math-error-n763996)

White House budget director Mick Mulvaney didn't deny the math, saying it was done "on purpose," during a press briefing Tuesday.

"I'm aware of the criticisms and would simply come back and say there's other places where we were probably overly conservative in our accounting," he said. "We stand by the numbers."


Of course, people who use actual math say things like this:

Former Treasury Secretary Larry Summers put it another way, writing in his blog, "It appears to be the most egregious accounting error in a presidential budget in the nearly 40 years I have been tracking them."

I think Summers is being overly generous when he describes it as "an error." 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 24, 2017, 03:28:07 pm
I think Summers is being overly generous when he describes it as "an error."


They double-counted $2 trillion to make work numbers already predicated on a pie-in-the-sky 3% growth rate (currently 1.9%) because...underpants?  When this nonsense is pointed out, the response is "The fuck you gonna do about it?!"

This is not normal.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 24, 2017, 03:39:23 pm
"I am heavily medicated and literally beset by fever dreams and don't trust my own thoughts, but allow me to copy and paste an unidentified email full of paranoid ramblings."

A year ago I would have just assumed it was a parody.

Nowadays it's a successful White House applicant's resume.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on May 24, 2017, 03:53:08 pm
And the CBO score is in. (https://www.cbo.gov/publication/52752)  23 million more uninsured, lower premiums for less coverage under AHCA 2.0.  And it manages to basically obliterate pre-existing condition coverage for one-sixth of the population and cause 14 million people to lose Medicaid benefits. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 24, 2017, 05:10:38 pm
...and now the Post is reporting that the memo that set Comey in motion to investigate Clinton's emails - purporting to be from Loretta Lynch saying that she's going to gloss over the server thing - was planted by the Russians.  Literally fake news.

Comey's unwitting, "Dudley Do Right" amplification of the email investigation during the election - and then again right on top of it - clearly tipped the balance to Trump.  So, now, when we talk about the Russians "hacking" our election, it's actually the Russians fixing our election.

The Russians won.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: austro on May 24, 2017, 07:28:20 pm
And the CBO score is in. (https://www.cbo.gov/publication/52752)  23 million more uninsured, lower premiums for less coverage under AHCA 2.0.  And it manages to basically obliterate pre-existing condition coverage for one-sixth of the population and cause 14 million people to lose Medicaid benefits. 

That'll show those takers.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Nate Colbert on May 24, 2017, 10:37:28 pm
And the CBO score is in. (https://www.cbo.gov/publication/52752)  23 million more uninsured, lower premiums for less coverage under AHCA 2.0.  And it manages to basically obliterate pre-existing condition coverage for one-sixth of the population and cause 14 million people to lose Medicaid benefits.

Reporter gets beaten up for having the temerity to ask a Republican candidate about the CBO report. (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/05/24/greg-gianforte-fox-news-team-witnesses-gop-house-candidate-body-slam-reporter.html)

Read the bottom of that Fox News article for how the candidate tries to spin the encounter.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: WVastro on May 24, 2017, 11:20:14 pm
Reporter gets beaten up for having the temerity to ask a Republican candidate about the CBO report. (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/05/24/greg-gianforte-fox-news-team-witnesses-gop-house-candidate-body-slam-reporter.html)

Read the bottom of that Fox News article for how the candidate tries to spin the encounter.

That's just normal, day to day, alternate body slamming. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on May 25, 2017, 07:40:38 am
Throwing a shoe seems tame by comparison.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 25, 2017, 08:33:27 am
Today's damage report:

Brits refusing to share any more intel on the Manchester bombings with US counterparts because of incessant leaks that hamper the investigation.  Earlier this week it was reported that the Israelis had rewritten the guidelines on what, when and how they share intel with the US after Trump's blabbing to Russians about Israeli intel and then blurting out confirmation of what he did while standing next to Netanyahu.

It has also been confirmed, by the White House, that Trump blabbed to the Prime Minster Rodrigo Duterte of the Philippines (thanks Knox) that he had two nuclear subs off the coast of North Korea.  This was during the same call when he congratulated Duterte on his "handling" of the drug problem in his country (which is to send out death squads to kill suspected dealers).  FWIW, Duterte has also likened himself to Hitler, and boasted of committing killings and rape.  Trump invited him to the White House.

Jeff Sessions joined Mike Flynn and Jared Kushner as having been caught lying (by omission) about contacts with Russian officials on his security clearance application.  Pretty much everyone around Trump has ties to Russia, and pretty much all of them have lied about it.

The Democrats have already flipped two previously safe Republican seats in Congress via special election since Trump's victory in November.  They are likely to flip a third today - Montana's statewide seat - given that the Republican candidate Greg Gianforte was running a little behind in the polls, the election is today and yesterday he physically attacked a journalist and was charged with assault.  The attack was on audio tape and in front of other journalists.  Apropos nothing, Gianforte also has ties to businesses funded by shady Russian financiers.

It's 8:33am CDT.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on May 25, 2017, 09:09:07 am
What seats have they flipped?

Also Duterte heads up the Philippines, not Indonesia.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 25, 2017, 09:11:08 am
And the CBO score is in. (https://www.cbo.gov/publication/52752)  23 million more uninsured, lower premiums for less coverage under AHCA 2.0.  And it manages to basically obliterate pre-existing condition coverage for one-sixth of the population and cause 14 million people to lose Medicaid benefits.

The CBO also pointed out that, in states that opt out of pre-existing coverage mandates, the high-risk insurance markets for those otherwise excluded by dint of a pre-existing condition will collapse.  Meanwhile, Trump's dithering on whether to honor the ACA's cost-sharing payments to insurers is already causing enough instability that premiums are expected to rise by 20% next year for this reason alone.

This is how Republicans roll: they campaign on the premise that government doesn't work and, once elected, set about proving themselves right.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 25, 2017, 09:18:16 am
What seats have they flipped?

Also Duterte heads up the Philippines, not Indonesia.

Thanks for the correction on Duterte.  The seats I was referring to are state seats, not US Congress - including one in New Hampshire (http://www.wmur.com/article/incredible-tornado-footage-out-of-north-carolina-1495669230/9926533).  The Democrats came close to flipping a US Congressional seat in Kansas of all places, and may well pick up the one in Montana today.  There's one coming up in early June in Georgia, where the Democrat is leading in the polls.

While not being pivotal to national governance, the state elections are bellwethers as to rapid deterioration in the Republican brand, even in previously solid red districts.  Trump is bringing balance to politics in the same way that Anakin Skywalker brought balance to the Force - by taking one side so far to the edge that it falls off.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on May 25, 2017, 09:25:19 am
What seats have they flipped?

Also Duterte heads up the Philippines, not Indonesia.

I presume Limey is referencing the Democrat candidates winning special elections for state representative seats in a New Hampshire district (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/democrats-flip-state-legislature-seats-trump-districts/story?id=47612725) that had never been won by a Democrat before and a very conservative New York district. (https://www.newsday.com/long-island/politics/in-upset-democrat-pellegrino-wins-9th-district-assembly-seat-1.13656477?firstfree=yes#) 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on May 25, 2017, 09:26:58 am
That's good news about those state seats. I hadn't heard that.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on May 25, 2017, 09:59:01 am
Reporter gets beaten up for having the temerity to ask a Republican candidate about the CBO report. (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/05/24/greg-gianforte-fox-news-team-witnesses-gop-house-candidate-body-slam-reporter.html)

Read the bottom of that Fox News article for how the candidate tries to spin the encounter.

Even more disgusting than the outright falsity of the candidate's statement is that is seeks to excuse the assault because it the victim was "a liberal journalist." 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 25, 2017, 10:03:18 am
Even more disgusting than the outright falsity of the candidate's statement is that is seeks to excuse the assault because it the victim was "a liberal journalist."

Not sure if it's been mentioned here among the litany of high crimes committed by Trump but, according to the Comey memos (which may well supplant the Watergate tapes in political infamy), Trump asked him to arrest certain journalists.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on May 25, 2017, 10:15:47 am
What's nuts is all the people out there still saying, "Well, it's better than the Democrats having power."
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 25, 2017, 10:57:05 am
Fun  with Photoshop (https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/s480x480/e35/18580819_1699402670359808_2908147339946360832_n.jpg).
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on May 25, 2017, 01:03:12 pm
What's nuts is all the people out there still saying, "Well, it's better than the Democrats having power."
It's only as nuts as Hillary's campaign was inept. I know it's not popular around here but I still lay a large part of the blame on the Democrats inability to defeat a genuine megalomaniac in the traditionally Democrat strongholds of Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin. I don't think the Russians made people vote they way they did in those states. Maybe they did in Maine. For sure, Iowa. Which brings us to now.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on May 25, 2017, 01:05:41 pm
Fun  with Photoshop (https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/s480x480/e35/18580819_1699402670359808_2908147339946360832_n.jpg).
I like the one I saw with Elvis.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 25, 2017, 01:57:18 pm
It's only as nuts as Hillary's campaign was inept. I know it's not popular around here but I still lay a large part of the blame on the Democrats inability to defeat a genuine megalomaniac in the traditionally Democrat strongholds of Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin. I don't think the Russians made people vote they way they did in those states. Maybe they did in Maine. For sure, Iowa. Which brings us to now.

The winning margin in those swing states was about 70,000 in total.  Yes, Clinton ran a bad campaign - ignoring those states late on because she thought they were in the bag being a big mistake - but she too had high unfavorable polling numbers.  I heard it described as a contest between two people who could only lose to each other.

I think the Dems were going to push for Clinton no matter what, but if Biden had been the nominee he would've cleaned Trump's clock in those same swing states and thus in the electoral college.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 25, 2017, 02:08:04 pm
The Muslim ban - remember that?  It just lost again in court - continuing its impressive oh-for-everything streak - when the 4th circuit upheld a Maryland district court ruling that the ban violated the equal protection clause.

The 9th circuit is still chewing on the broader decision that came out of Hawaii that prompted hilariously ignorant comments from AG Sessions that suggested that he didn't know (or didn't care) that Hawaii was a state; wondering out loud why a judge "on an island in the middle of the ocean" had the power to block Federal government.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Nate Colbert on May 25, 2017, 02:52:00 pm
Reporter gets beaten up for having the temerity to ask a Republican candidate about the CBO report. (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/05/24/greg-gianforte-fox-news-team-witnesses-gop-house-candidate-body-slam-reporter.html)

Read the bottom of that Fox News article for how the candidate tries to spin the encounter.

Gianforte was charged with misdemeanor assault today.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on May 25, 2017, 02:52:35 pm
The Muslim ban - remember that?  It just lost again in court - continuing its impressive oh-for-everything streak - when the 4th circuit upheld a Maryland district court ruling that the ban violated the equal protection clause.

The 9th circuit is still chewing on the broader decision that came out of Hawaii that prompted hilariously ignorant comments from AG Sessions that suggested that he didn't know (or didn't care) that Hawaii was a state; wondering out loud why a judge "on an island in the middle of the ocean" had the power to block Federal government.

The en banc 4th Circuit opinion nicely summarizes (http://coop.ca4.uscourts.gov/171351.P.pdf) the travel ban as "an Executive Order that in text speaks with vague words of national security, but in context drips with religious intolerance, animus, and discrimination."
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 25, 2017, 03:20:09 pm
Gianforte was charged with misdemeanor assault today.

Republicans have been on the whole "violence is bad, but..." train all day.  There is no "but" here.  Gianforte dragged the guy to the floor and punched him repeatedly - in a normal world he'd have withdrawn his candidacy there and then (or never made it that far in the first place).

Paul Ryan - his usual profile in courage - declined to comment and said it's up to the people of Montana to decide.  WTF?  When pressed, he said that violence is bad and Gianforte should apologise.  What a sad sack of mushy shit.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on May 25, 2017, 03:27:03 pm
A Washington Post article entitled "How a Russia-friendly adviser found his way into the Trump campaign" describes how Carter Page became a "foreign policy expert" of the Trump Team.  If you have seen Mr. page interviewed, you realize that he's not the brightest bulb around.  Anyways:

Quote
So when Carter Page, an international businessman with an office near Trump Tower, turned up at campaign headquarters, former officials recall, Trump aides were quick to make him feel welcome.

A top Trump adviser, Sam Clovis, employed what campaign aides now acknowledge was their go-to vetting process — a quick Google search — to check out the newcomer. He seemed to have the right qualifications, according to former campaign officials — head of an energy investment firm, business degree from New York University, doctorate from the University of London.

Page was in. He joined a new Trump campaign national security advisory group, and, in late March 2016, the candidate pointed to Page, among others, as evidence of a foreign policy team with gravitas.

But what the Google search had not shown was that Page had been on the FBI’s radar since at least 2013, when Russian officials allegedly attempted to use him to get information about the energy business.

So, the emerging defense for the Trump campaign is: We are too incompetent to be guilty.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 25, 2017, 03:42:23 pm
So, the emerging defense for the Trump campaign is: We are too incompetent to be guilty.

The Russian spies who were grooming Page described him as "an idiot".  I have seen him speak; how anyone could come up with any other opinion is beyond me.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on May 25, 2017, 06:24:29 pm
What is the basis in modern American conservatism for undermining NATO?  Is it a marriage of isolationism and Trump's weird desire to make Putin happy?  How does subverting the most successful and stabilizing alliance in the modern era serve American interests? 

Putting aside Trump's typical boorishness today (shoving the PM of Montenegro aside to be first in a photo op, awkwardly calling for a moment of silence for the victims of the Manchester attack, calling Germany "evil" or "bad" because of their auto sales, etc...), I just don't understand the policy motivation for insulting our closest allies, falsely accusing them owing us money, and not re-affirming our commitment to the alliance.  It's all so bizarre.   
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: hostros7 on May 25, 2017, 11:08:57 pm
What is the basis in modern American conservatism for undermining NATO?  Is it a marriage of isolationism and Trump's weird desire to make Putin happy?  How does subverting the most successful and stabilizing alliance in the modern era serve American interests? 

Putting aside Trump's typical boorishness today (shoving the PM of Montenegro aside to be first in a photo op, awkwardly calling for a moment of silence for the victims of the Manchester attack, calling Germany "evil" or "bad" because of their auto sales, etc...), I just don't understand the policy motivation for insulting our closest allies, falsely accusing them owing us money, and not re-affirming our commitment to the alliance.  It's all so bizarre.   

Ignorance. No knowledge of history. No understanding of economics. Placating to a base that seeks easy answers for complicated issues that have led to feelings of isolation, relative loss of economic standing, and fear.




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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on May 25, 2017, 11:53:02 pm
The Democrats have already flipped two previously safe Republican seats in Congress via special election since Trump's victory in November.  They are likely to flip a third today - Montana's statewide seat - given that the Republican candidate Greg Gianforte was running a little behind in the polls, the election is today and yesterday he physically attacked a journalist and was charged with assault.  The attack was on audio tape and in front of other journalists.  Apropos nothing, Gianforte also has ties to businesses funded by shady Russian financiers.

No such luck.  Looks like Gianforte's assault will be rewarded with a trip to Congress.  So either Montana voters didn't care, or they viewed it as a positive.  Of course, 70% of the ballots having already been cast prior to the assault probably had more to do with it. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: moriartp on May 26, 2017, 06:41:38 am
There was a lot at work in MT, but two additional factors: Quist had real vulnerabilities (shady tax history), and Gianforte absolutely crushed him in outside donations.

Dems need to run better candidates, and they need to spend money on them. No more excuses.

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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Ty in Tampa on May 26, 2017, 07:14:09 am

Gianforte absolutely crushed him


I see what you did there.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 26, 2017, 08:08:22 am
No such luck.  Looks like Gianforte's assault will be rewarded with a trip to Congress.  So either Montana voters didn't care, or they viewed it as a positive.  Of course, 70% of the ballots having already been cast prior to the assault probably had more to do with it.

The Chairman of the State Republican party had called for the party to oppose mail-in ballots (something done often in Montana) as it increases turnout, which favours Democrats.  The individual counties wanted a mail-in option as it makes elections much cheaper to run (especially somewhere like Montana) and they prevailed.

I will be interested to see the split between the mail-in and election day ballots.  All three major newspapers in the state endorsed Gianforte, but all three rescinded their endorsement on election day after the assault.  It will be truly ironic if his campaign was saved by the mail-in ballots they feared gave their opponent an advantage.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 26, 2017, 08:10:14 am
There was a lot at work in MT, but two additional factors: Quist had real vulnerabilities (shady tax history), and Gianforte absolutely crushed him in outside donations.

Dems need to run better candidates, and they need to spend money on them. No more excuses.

This is true, but it's hard to recruit candidates to run in a race where the opposition has a 20+ point head start.  Also, the outside money came in for Gianforte because he was struggling, it's going to be very tough for the Republicans in 2018 if they have to spend millions just to defend ultra-safe seats.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on May 26, 2017, 09:41:20 am
This is true, but it's hard to recruit candidates to run in a race where the opposition has a 20+ point head start.  Also, the outside money came in for Gianforte because he was struggling, it's going to be very tough for the Republicans in 2018 if they have to spend millions just to defend ultra-safe seats.

The four special elections for congressional seats this year show an average +16 point trend (https://twitter.com/ForecasterEnten/status/868091934925086720) for the democrats.  They need to keep that trend going in order to take the house next year.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 26, 2017, 09:47:55 am
The four special elections for congressional seats this year show an average +16 point trend (https://twitter.com/ForecasterEnten/status/868091934925086720) for the democrats.  They need to keep that trend going in order to take the house next year.

Nate Silver has pontificated that the swing to the Democrats seen thus far is what it needs to be to take back the House and Senate.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 26, 2017, 12:04:15 pm
So, it's been confirmed that the person of interest in the White House is Kushner.  Apparently, he met with Russian officials (which he then later failed to disclose) just before the hacking attack started.  After the election he met with Kislyak (who on Trump's team didn't?) as well as a Russian bank that was/is under US sanctions.  Kushner, Flynn and Sessions all met with Kislyak and others - Flynn known to have specifically discussed sanctions - while campaign aides Paul Manaforte and Roger Stone also had multiple contacts with Russian officials.

As an aside, Flynn is also known to have caused the postponement of an attack on ISIS by the US in concert with Kurdish forces.  The objection to this mission coming from Turkey, for whom - at the time - Flynn was an unregistered foreign agent.

Basically, we're through the smoke and at the fire her people.  During and after the campaign, Trump's people were in contact with Russian officials and those Russians suffering under US sanctions.  Right after the election, Flynn spoke with Kislyak about lifting the sanctions.  There's your motive, means and opportunity.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on May 26, 2017, 01:44:06 pm
The problem is that "those for whom this is new information" and "those who would be moved to do something about it" are Venn circles that do not intersect.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 28, 2017, 01:30:10 pm
Quote from: Angel Merkel
The times in which we can fully count on others are somewhat over, as I have experienced in the past few days.  And that is why I can only say: We Europeans must really take our destiny into our own hands, of course in friendship with the United States, in friendship with Great Britain, with good neighborly relations wherever possible – also with Russia and other countries – but we have to know that we will fight for our future and our fate ourselves as Europeans.

Less than 3 months in, and the United States is no longer a world leader.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on May 29, 2017, 10:48:37 am
Less than 3 months in, and the United States is no longer a world leader.

One of the great ironies of the twentieth century is that just one-sixth of the way into the twenty-first century a unified German is the leader of the free world and foremost champion of liberal democracy.  Francis Fukuyama must be so confused. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on May 29, 2017, 05:27:30 pm
What is the basis in modern American conservatism for undermining NATO?  Is it a marriage of isolationism and Trump's weird desire to make Putin happy?  How does subverting the most successful and stabilizing alliance in the modern era serve American interests? 

Putting aside Trump's typical boorishness today (shoving the PM of Montenegro aside to be first in a photo op, awkwardly calling for a moment of silence for the victims of the Manchester attack, calling Germany "evil" or "bad" because of their auto sales, etc...), I just don't understand the policy motivation for insulting our closest allies, falsely accusing them owing us money, and not re-affirming our commitment to the alliance.  It's all so bizarre.   

I think you nailed it with your first guess. NATO is his best friend's worst enemy. His "weird" affinity for Russia has been the lone thing he's been consistent about pretty much the whole time.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on May 29, 2017, 05:35:08 pm
I think you nailed it with your first guess. NATO is his best friend's worst enemy. His "weird" affinity for Russia has been the lone thing he's been consistent about pretty much the whole time.

I blame it on the Pussy Riot fiasco.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 30, 2017, 08:47:46 am
I think you nailed it with your first guess. NATO is his best friend's worst enemy. His "weird" affinity for Russia has been the lone thing he's been consistent about pretty much the whole time.

I'm starting to wonder if Russia isn't Trump's ally; he's just the annoying wannabe friend that follows Russia around.

Think about it; we know the election hacking was done initially to leave Clinton so hobbled as a leader that she'd be ineffective in the world, leaving a vacuum for Putin and his oligarchs.  Right up until about 11pm on election night, almost everyone (except Mrs Limey) expected Trump to lose.  All the Russia stuff in his campaign was one way; there was no reciprocal love other than the ongoing hacking which they were doing anyway.

Then Trump wins, and there's still very little by way of overt support to or about Trump from Russia.  Trump's people have been bothering the shit out of Kislyak - because he's the only one here - and a couple of bankers.  And herein lies the rub:  I think that Trump is trying to use the Presidency to alleviate the substantial debt he has in Russia.  He's been loving up to Russia and all of its friends while giving Russia's enemies (NATO) the cold shoulder.  But none of it is eliciting any kind of reaction from Putin.

It's important to remember that - in the bombshell story that Kushner was trying to set up a back channel to the Kremlin through the Russian embassy - Ambassador Kislyak was completely shocked at the request (in what he thought was secure communication - not in a Captain Renault kind of way).

I think Trump wants desperately to be a Putin stooge in return for debt relief (and some more incontinent hookers).  He's got something to sell - America - but right now Russia isn't buying because they don't need to.  If they'd put in a Manchurian Candidate, it's hard to imagine such a person doing such overt damage to the U.S. at home and abroad.  Where he's failing is that Putin doesn't need to do anything for Trump to get what he wants, so Trump keeps giving him free shit trying to win his affection.

This is the ultimate irony.  Trump isn't Putin's lackey, but he really, really wants to be.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on May 30, 2017, 10:05:17 am
I think that Trump is trying to use the Presidency to alleviate the substantial debt he has in Russia. 
This could be the ending to this pathetic tale.  His fealty to Russia is undeniable.  The only question is why? 

Possible explanations:
Reset relations as part of some grand global strategy?  Does Trump really strike anyone as able to embrace such a concept, and even if he did, why go to such underhanded means to achieve it?  Just do it out in the open.   This explanation seems badly wanting, to me at least.

As payback for help in the election?  Possible

Cause they have dirt on him?  Possible

To make a buck or cut his debt?  I normally wouldn't even consider this from someone I detested, as it is so despicable.  However, with Trump, I'm really starting to wonder: is he simply selling out America for personal gain.  Even though it seems outrageous and cynical, it also seems to be the most likely reason.

Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on May 30, 2017, 10:31:04 am
To make a buck or cut his debt?  I normally wouldn't even consider this from someone I detested, as it is so despicable.  However, with Trump, I'm really starting to wonder: is he simply selling out America for personal gain.  Even though it seems outrageous and cynical, it also seems to be the most likely reason.

I agree. I think, too, that it's far from unlikely that at some low point during the campaign they decided to throw a Hail Mary with some Ruskie help. What they had to lose they were probably going to lose anyway, and what they had to gain was the White House. There's certainly nothing in Trump's history to suggest he would suddenly exhibit prudence or restraint when the chips were down.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 30, 2017, 11:16:20 am
I agree. I think, too, that it's far from unlikely that at some low point during the campaign they decided to throw a Hail Mary with some Ruskie help. What they had to lose they were probably going to lose anyway, and what they had to gain was the White House. There's certainly nothing in Trump's history to suggest he would suddenly exhibit prudence or restraint when the chips were down.

His track record in business shows that he's not subtle, strategic or even ethical.  It was the same on the campaign trail and it is the same in office.  We're aghast at the brazen violation of ethical - or even behavioral - standards, but this is how he's been his whole life.

He's also suffered multiple setbacks because he's so bad at what he does; his entire business just prior to being President was licensing the brand name "Trump" (which he has now destroyed) and hosting a reality TV show.  Trump sued a journalist (for $5bn) who suggested that Trump wasn't a billionaire - because he's so leveraged that his net worth was closer to $250mm.  Trump lost because he couldn't show that he was a billionaire.  That ill-conceived lawsuit (by the same lawyer behind the Trump University defense and who he's now retained to defend criminal charges from being in office) also gave us a hilarious but disturbing deposition by Trump in which, for example, he explained how his valuation of his net worth changes based on his current mood.

He is surrounded by chancers and grifters.  But Trump himself is simply a delusional old man (he forgot Justin Trudeau's last name while speaking recently, giving us the "Justin from Canada" meme) with no moral compass (thanks Trump Sr!) who will never understand that he's doing anything wrong.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 30, 2017, 01:46:50 pm
The lawyer who Trump has retained as counsel with regard to the ongoing Trump-Russia investigation, is involved in the Trump-Russia investigation (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/congressional-russia-probe-now-includes-trump-lawyer-michael-cohen-n766231).

Quote from: NBC News
President Donald Trump's personal attorney, Michael Cohen, confirmed to NBC News that he has received requests for information from the Senate and House intelligence committees as part of their probes into Russian interference in the U.S. election.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 30, 2017, 02:04:37 pm
Quote
Supreme Leader Kim Jong Un has a magnetic personality and exudes positive energy, which is infectious to those around him.  He has an unparalleled ability to communicate with people, whether he is speaking to a room of three or an arena of 30,000. He has built great relationships throughout his life and treats everyone with respect. He is brilliant with a great sense of humor … and an amazing ability to make people feel special and aspire to be more than even they thought possible.

What complete tosh.  Oh, but it wasn't about Kim, it's actually White House spokeswoman Hope Hicks, in a press release about Donald Trump.  Then only thing I changed was "President Trump" to "Supreme Leader Kim Jong Un".  Everything else is verbatim.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on May 31, 2017, 10:38:04 am
According to the Urban Dictionary:
Covfefe - when you try to type "coverage" but your hands are too small to reach the correct keys on your phone.

Oh, and Russia and Paris Climate Accords and communications director and asking world leaders to call your unsecured, ancient Android phone etc. etc., blah blah Wednesday.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 01, 2017, 02:46:48 pm
So he did it: the US has joined Nicaragua and Syria as the only non-signatories to the Paris Climate Accords.  Despite it being supported by 70% of Americans, including former Exxon CEO and current Secretary of State Rex DrTillerson along with many, many more fossil fuel CEOs.  But not the coal industry or the Koch Brothers, so that's fair then.

Maybe this is what "covfefe" means.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on June 01, 2017, 07:25:20 pm
Maybe this is what "covfefe" means.

If covfefe means spite, then, yes. Trump isn't interested in leading. He is incapable of leading since he has no ideas, no principles, no morality, no vision. In short, if there's something Obama did that he can un-do, he will. If he catches wind of something that Obama was (or is) for, he's against it.

I'm not really all that worked up about today's predictable turn of events. I mean, it's horrible and embarrassing and all that, sure. But it's only one more in what will be a long series of these things. Private enterprise and key US states will lead the way towards carbon reduction and the further development of renewable technologies. And he can't fully exit the agreement before he gets bounced the fuck out of there anyway. But what does concern me is what's going to happen as the television inevitably tells him that Obama is getting more and more popular and he is getting less and less. Will he manufacture something terrible with Iran or North Korea? It will be terrifyingly fascinating to watch since the guys who hold the note on Trump are basically fine with the status quo in both places. But he may get to a point where he feels like he has no choice.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on June 01, 2017, 10:44:51 pm
Ordinarily I would think it would be fucking stupid to pay attention to anyone that tweets shit in the middle of the night. But he is the president so I get the attraction.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 02, 2017, 08:44:26 am
Ordinarily I would think it would be fucking stupid to pay attention to anyone that tweets shit in the middle of the night. But he is the president so I get the attraction.

What he says is mostly bullshit that he will contradict soon enough - sometimes within the confines of the same sentence.  I try to follow what he does, not what he says.  But the "covfefe" meme is pretty fucking funny...until Clinton jumped on it and killed it (she tweeted "People in covfefe houses shouldn't throw covfefe"...like on the second day.  That's the best she had?).

So, if you look at what Trump has actually achieved as far as policy...still...it was only the nomination of a Supreme Court Justice (which the Republicans had to blow up Senate rules to ram through) and now this withdrawal from the Paris climate accords.  That's it.  Healthcare reform won't pass the Senate (or if it does their watered down version won't pass the House); his "budget" is DOA; his wall isn't happening.  Everything else has been sound and fury signifying nothing.

Now, he has been able to turn elements of the Federal government into his angry pack dogs, so the DOJ is locking up pot smokers for as long as possible and ICE is deporting all the low hanging fruit they can lay their hands on - all of which is simple cruelty - but all of these things can be undone by a wave of the hand of the person who follows him.  Less so the diplomatic damage he's doing to our world standing - that's going to take some Jedi mind trick shit to sort out.

Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: AstroNut on June 02, 2017, 10:41:15 am
He was elected to represent Pittsburg, not Paris...I kind of like that.

We are and have been the most ecology friendly industrial nation on the planet. This Paris deal was so skewed against the U.S. and frankly we can't afford anymore to be the world's military and ecology policeman and pay for everything. Maybe if we ask others to pay their share on world/planet issues...we can start taking care of and PAYING FOR our domestic issues. (poverty, crime, education, infrastructure...these are expensive issues that take tax dollars).

P.S. Fuck the Rangers !

Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: BUWebguy on June 02, 2017, 11:31:51 am
He was elected to represent Pittsburg, not Paris...I kind of like that.

Enter Pittsburgh's mayor:
Quote
The United States joins Syria, Nicaragua & Russia in deciding not to participate with world's Paris Agreement. It's now up to cities to lead ... As the Mayor of Pittsburgh, I can assure you that we will follow the guidelines of the Paris Agreement for our people, our economy & future.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/6/1/15726656/pittsburgh-mayor-trump-paris
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Ty in Tampa on June 02, 2017, 11:49:24 am
Pittsburg, not Paris...I kind of like that.

Lot of folks like that. It fits right the fuck on a standard-sized bumper sticker.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 02, 2017, 12:10:55 pm
He was elected to represent Pittsburg, not Paris...I kind of like that.

We are and have been the most ecology friendly industrial nation on the planet. This Paris deal was so skewed against the U.S. and frankly we can't afford anymore to be the world's military and ecology policeman and pay for everything. Maybe if we ask others to pay their share on world/planet issues...we can start taking care of and PAYING FOR our domestic issues. (poverty, crime, education, infrastructure...these are expensive issues that take tax dollars).

P.S. Fuck the Rangers !

Last year, as has been the trend for many years now, more new jobs were created in "green" energy than exist in total in the coal industry.  Three times as many, in fact.

Climate change accords are not hurting the coal industry; cheaper energy alternatives are.
Climate change accords are not hurting the oil and gas industry; suppressed commodity prices are (and they're still over-producing at a rate that keeps prices down).

Meanwhile, Trump's efforts to drag American energy policy back to the 1970s will mean that China and the EU will steal a march on us in the green technologies that will dominate world demand over our lifetimes.  If he has his way, we'll be trying to sell surreys in the smog outside of Tesla dealerships while coughing up a lung and trying to quell the convulsions with brown water from the tap.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jwhudson on June 02, 2017, 02:35:02 pm
Lot of folks like that. It fits right the fuck on a standard-sized bumper sticker.
What about Paris, Texas; Paris, Tennessee; Paris, Kentucky?  I'm sure they voted Trump.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 02, 2017, 03:40:00 pm
What about Paris, Texas; Paris, Tennessee; Paris, Kentucky?  I'm sure they voted Trump.

Trump is working on a Lone State solution for Lebanon, TX.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 05, 2017, 10:23:57 am
So Trump has decided that it's a good idea to reiterate in public that his Muslim ban is a Muslim ban - for which the ACLU and others interested in the pending Federal case have thanked him - while doubling down on his insult of the Mayor of London.  All this while making spectacularly dumb statements about gun regulation (for which he was accused of being "genetically engineered to be stupid"), promising to work on the issue here (before heading off for a weekend of golfing) all the while leaving the Federal agency responsible for seeking out and ending those who plot such terrorist acts - the FBI - leaderless for going on a third week.

As an aside, hurricane season started last week, yet there's no one in charge at either FEMA or NOAA.  Trump has also proposed massive cuts to both agencies.

There are 559 Senate-confirmable positions in the Federal government.  At this point, only 39 have been confirmed, only 63 nominations have been offered by Trump's administration, leaving 442 posts simply in limbo (https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/trump-administration-appointee-tracker/database/), without even a nominee for consideration.  This is 137 days in, not counting the 75 days Trump had in transition after the election.  I see a lot of contracts where indemnities are given with exceptions for "gross negligence and willful misconduct"; the discussion usually being that GN/WM is such a high bar to prove that it's not worth worrying about.  I think we're seeing, in this administration, what gross negligence and willful misconduct looks like.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on June 05, 2017, 11:23:58 am
Lot of folks like that. It fits right the fuck on a standard-sized bumper sticker.

Also, it represents a fake symbol that has nothing to do with reality.  Pittsburgh's economy is driven by the medical, education, and tech industries. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on June 05, 2017, 11:26:42 am
But what does concern me is what's going to happen as the television inevitably tells him that Obama is getting more and more popular and he is getting less and less. Will he manufacture something terrible with Iran or North Korea? It will be terrifyingly fascinating to watch since the guys who hold the note on Trump are basically fine with the status quo in both places. But he may get to a point where he feels like he has no choice.

Eventually there will be a terrorist attack by ISIS or some similarly motivated group in the US and his reaction will be horrifying. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Waldo on June 05, 2017, 12:04:50 pm
There are 559 Senate-confirmable positions in the Federal government.  At this point, only 39 have been confirmed, only 63 nominations have been offered by Trump's administration, leaving 442 posts simply in limbo (https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/trump-administration-appointee-tracker/database/), without even a nominee for consideration.  This is 137 days in, not counting the 75 days Trump had in transition after the election.  I see a lot of contracts where indemnities are given with exceptions for "gross negligence and willful misconduct"; the discussion usually being that GN/WM is such a high bar to prove that it's not worth worrying about.  I think we're seeing, in this administration, what gross negligence and willful misconduct looks like.

By leaving those positions unfilled, couldn't this be viewed as the White House consolidating its power/influence by destabilizing those agencies?  Maybe I'm giving them too much credit but many of the administration's actions thus far (e.g. attempted Muslim ban) don't smack of egregious incompetence to me.  In many ways I think they know exactly what they're doing.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on June 05, 2017, 12:21:10 pm
As unfilled positions go, sounds more like the pool of acceptable candidates has totally dwindled.  How many respectable Republicans want to work for him?  Of those, how many will he tolerate?  So, we are left with Republican dregs like the Milwaukee sheriff who are crazy and popular enough to appeal to Trump, but not so popular that they might overshadow him. 

If it is intentional, it will surely backfire.  Using Limey's example, we will have a natural disaster, and the non-government government won't be able to respond, yielding public calls for more government.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on June 05, 2017, 12:44:37 pm
By leaving those positions unfilled, couldn't this be viewed as the White House consolidating its power/influence by destabilizing those agencies?

This is precisely what they're doing.

Also, as a point of mild interest given the happenings over the weekend, the ambassadorial post to the United Kingdom is currently unfilled. I'm hearing that it's taking so long because the White House can't decide between Ted Nugent and Kid Rock.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on June 05, 2017, 01:13:25 pm
By leaving those positions unfilled, couldn't this be viewed as the White House consolidating its power/influence by destabilizing those agencies?  Maybe I'm giving them too much credit but many of the administration's actions thus far (e.g. attempted Muslim ban) don't smack of egregious incompetence to me.  In many ways I think they know exactly what they're doing.

Most of this administration, especially the Muslim ban, is malevolence tempered by incompetence. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 05, 2017, 01:45:37 pm
Most of this administration, especially the Muslim ban, is malevolence tempered by incompetence.

Bingo.  They inflict cruelty wherever possible through existing structures (e.g. ICE deporting all the low hanging fruit - ironically leaving no one to pick fruit hanging at any height), but in all other areas their cruelty is aspirational.  In no area are they anything other than cruel.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 05, 2017, 02:04:21 pm
By leaving those positions unfilled, couldn't this be viewed as the White House consolidating its power/influence by destabilizing those agencies?  Maybe I'm giving them too much credit but many of the administration's actions thus far (e.g. attempted Muslim ban) don't smack of egregious incompetence to me.  In many ways I think they know exactly what they're doing.

Sitting pretty in the middle of Trump's basket of personality disorders is his paranoia.  His inner circle comprises immediate family members and a handful of deplorables who've pledged fealty to him.  Yet, despite such pledges, the non-family members drift in and out of favor with regularity, suggesting that only blood relations and their spouses are truly trusted...and maybe not even the latter.

Example:  his NATO speech was twice appended by McMasters, Mattis and Tillerson to pledge support for Article V, only for Trump to remove such a pledge three times - including the final version which MM&T didn't see.  The alleged grown ups in the room aren't in the room when he makes his final choices.  This is terrifying.

Trump claims that many of the unfilled positions are that way on purpose; claiming that the positions are irrelevant/wasteful.  But many are pivotal, must-fill positions and he cannot find even unsuitable candidates to offer up for his lap-dog Senate to ram through.  Was the barrel scraped dry when he scooped up Betsy Devos?

Word is that he wants to fire Priebus, who would then become Ambassador to Greece, but can't find a replacement.  Various names have been floated for FBI Director, including John Cornyn and Joe Lieberman, only for each to quickly disavow any suggestion that they're interested.  Trump is toxic and, as a result, his administration will continue to spiral out of control and further into delusional, paranoid chaos.

If the Mueller investigation gets to Kushner, I fully expect him to nuke someone.  I am serious.  All he has been able to achieve, which is virtually fuck-all, is what he can achieve by fiat, and that's nominate Gorsuch, cancel the Paris agreement and bomb Iraq Syria.  He can send the nukes flying on his own whim, and has already shown that he'll take action to move Russi-a-lago off the front page.  He will nuke someone; he won't be able to sop himself because it is the ultimate expression of the power he has as President.  There's no way he leaves office without pressing that button.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on June 05, 2017, 02:08:29 pm
Luckily he literally can't nuke anyone all by himself. 'Cause, yeah, that would be, in the immortal words of the recently departed Private Hudson, "Game over, man! Game over!"
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Navin R Johnson on June 05, 2017, 02:43:05 pm
 It is like someone's goofy retired uncle, who believes every ridiculous, over the top, forwarded email and kooky Foxnews conspiracy is running the country.   Wait, that is actually what is going on.   Our idiot in charge's world view is formed by Breibart, Fox & Friends and InfoWars.   None of what is happening is the least bit surprising.

Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on June 05, 2017, 04:16:44 pm
If the Mueller investigation gets to Kushner, I fully expect him to nuke someone.  I am serious.

I don't think he cares enough about Kushner (or anyone else) to do anything suicidal should they get taken down. Sadly, the old Nixonian adage 'when the president does it that means it's not illegal' is largely true. So there's not very much that can touch Trump right now other than impeachment, and we all know that this congress isn't going to impeach Trump regardless of what may be found down the line or of what he does in between now and then. And I feel like it is very unlikely that the Democrats recapture the house in 2018.

Which is why previously I mentioned the one and only thing Trump does care about, which is himself and his image. If the television tells Trump that his own popularity is tanking while Obama's is skyrocketing, well, that's when I think you can start worrying about something extreme and irreparable happening.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 05, 2017, 08:09:05 pm
It is like someone's goofy retired uncle, who believes every ridiculous, over the top, forwarded email and kooky Foxnews conspiracy is running the country.   Wait, that is actually what is going on.   Our idiot in charge's world view is formed by Breibart, Fox & Friends and InfoWars.   None of what is happening is the least bit surprising.

His first tweet about London was a retweet of Drudge.  Think about that.  He has the entire US intel service at his beck and call, and he goes with info from a bullshit website. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: AstroNut on June 05, 2017, 08:34:24 pm
Europe finally to start paying their share...the Cold War is over folks. We are a trillion dollars in debt.

America first...about time.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on June 05, 2017, 09:22:38 pm
Europe finally to start paying their share...the Cold War is over folks. We are a trillion dollars in debt.

America first...about time.

You understand that they aren't paying us, right?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on June 05, 2017, 09:30:56 pm
Europe finally to start paying their share...the Cold War is over folks. We are a trillion dollars in debt.

America first...about time.

Pay their share for what?  What ledger are you looking at? 

And that "America First" slogan has a very specific history that is being invoked that's not a good thing at all.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Navin R Johnson on June 05, 2017, 11:25:00 pm
Europe finally to start paying their share...the Cold War is over folks. We are a trillion dollars in debt.

America first...about time.

More like Trump first, it is unbelievable that anyone was stupid enough to think it would be any other way. Sad!
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: AstroNut on June 06, 2017, 07:56:36 am
Paying for what ?

How about the vast majority of NATO...weapons, bases.

Not to mention the thousands of troops...

And yes I know they are not paying us...we are just paying their defense bills.

We went to Eorope and spilled our blood...more than once. And then protected them from the Russian bear. We can't afford it any longer and the threat from the East has deminished with the fall and breakup of the U.S.S.R.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on June 06, 2017, 09:41:18 am
Reality Winner.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on June 06, 2017, 10:30:41 am
Paying for what ?

How about the vast majority of NATO...weapons, bases.

Not to mention the thousands of troops...

And yes I know they are not paying us...we are just paying their defense bills.

We went to Eorope and spilled our blood...more than once. And then protected them from the Russian bear. We can't afford it any longer and the threat from the East has deminished with the fall and breakup of the U.S.S.R.

I think you misunderstand.  The point is that they are *not* paying us.  You act as if Trump, in some fit of High Noon-inspired leadership, somehow calmly waltzed into Europe, smacked around Germany and Luxembourg, and took their lunch money.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Navin R Johnson on June 06, 2017, 10:40:00 am
I'd bet 2/3rds of Trump voters would believe that, if they got a forwarded email claiming it happened
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Ty in Tampa on June 06, 2017, 10:43:16 am
And our presence in Europe isn't something they are begging for. A lot of the reasons NATO has lasted so long is that it is in our best interest.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on June 06, 2017, 11:20:19 am
And our presence in Europe isn't something they are begging for. A lot of the reasons NATO has lasted so long is that it is in our best interest.

Can't be emphasized enough.  The 'US as victim' narrative is so appealing to Trump voters, but so at odds with reality. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on June 06, 2017, 02:44:28 pm
Paying for what ?

How about the vast majority of NATO...weapons, bases.

Not to mention the thousands of troops...

And yes I know they are not paying us...we are just paying their defense bills.

We went to Eorope and spilled our blood...more than once. And then protected them from the Russian bear. We can't afford it any longer and the threat from the East has deminished with the fall and breakup of the U.S.S.R.

We are paying our own defense bills. None of the criticisms you identified makes any sense or is based in fact, unless your position is that the US spends too much money on defense overall (which I would agree with, but that spending has little to do with NATO). 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on June 06, 2017, 03:03:09 pm
We are paying our own defense bills. None of the criticisms you identified makes any sense or is based in fact, unless your position is that the US spends too much money on defense overall (which I would agree with, but that spending has little to do with NATO).

And President Trump's fantasy budget cuts all spending BUT defense, which increases dramatically.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: AstroNut on June 06, 2017, 03:08:22 pm
I think you misunderstand.  The point is that they are *not* paying us.  You act as if Trump, in some fit of High Noon-inspired leadership, somehow calmly waltzed into Europe, smacked around Germany and Luxembourg, and took their lunch money.

Not so...but our President let them know that the role of NATO needs to change, and the enormous amount of US tax dollars being expended needs to stop. Of course NATO has been a great help to US foreign policy...and we have treated it as such. But the post cold war world is a different animal. Russia is not the Soviet Union. Germany has been reunified.

Europe needs to take care of it's own house. THE U.S. TREASURY IS BROKE...WE CAN'T AFFORD. We have our own domestic problems to solve and pay for.

We have another seemingly endless war to fight. It's been 16 years since 9/11. Things are not going well in Libya, Syria, Iraq, Yemen...the Taliban has resurged in Afghanistan. Isis is spreading through Europe. We have had to think past our own sovereignty. We have had to empower domestic surveillance,  international police, and intelligence agencies...organizations that our founding fathers told us to be wary of.

Perhaps NATO needs to turn it's attention to this war against ISIS... with all members contributing equally.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Waldo on June 06, 2017, 03:17:19 pm
The US does spend the highest GDP percentage (>3%) while many NATO countries are below the 2% target.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2017/02/daily-chart-11

Maybe that's what AstroNut is talking about?  I don't know a lot about the subject, but my reading of the situation is that there is no NATO "fund" that countries pay into, it's just a commitment to spend a certain percentage of their GDP on their own defense.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: BudGirl on June 06, 2017, 03:39:52 pm
Not so...but our President let them know

I do not think our President knows anything to let anyone know something.  But,  I like that you have faith in him.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on June 06, 2017, 03:52:53 pm
Not so...but our President let them know that the role of NATO needs to change, and the enormous amount of US tax dollars being expended needs to stop. Of course NATO has been a great help to US foreign policy...and we have treated it as such. But the post cold war world is a different animal. Russia is not the Soviet Union. Germany has been reunified.

Europe needs to take care of it's own house. THE U.S. TREASURY IS BROKE...WE CAN'T AFFORD. We have our own domestic problems to solve and pay for.

We have another seemingly endless war to fight. It's been 16 years since 9/11. Things are not going well in Libya, Syria, Iraq, Yemen...the Taliban has resurged in Afghanistan. Isis is spreading through Europe. We have had to think past our own sovereignty. We have had to empower domestic surveillance,  international police, and intelligence agencies...organizations that our founding fathers told us to be wary of.

Perhaps NATO needs to turn it's attention to this war against ISIS... with all members contributing equally.

So you want to cut defense spending. Fair enough. But that has zero to do with the fact that other NATO members aren't going to give us squat.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on June 06, 2017, 03:59:19 pm
Isn't Europe our largest trading partner (at least before Brexit and Trump pissing them off)?  Not everyone buys into the idea that Russia has been tamed and is no threat.  I'd be surprised if the Baltics and most of Europe would subscribe to this idea, not to mention Ukraine.  So, if NATO is emasculated and Europe is destabilized, it hurts the American and world economy.  The debate should at least address this fundamental aspect.  Who should pay how much is certainly worthy of debate, but I'm not sure that the idea that the bear has been tamed and we are simply bailing out the sponging Europeans is worthy.  Particularly given recent events.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on June 07, 2017, 10:30:49 am
The US does spend the highest GDP percentage (>3%) while many NATO countries are below the 2% target.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2017/02/daily-chart-11

Maybe that's what AstroNut is talking about?  I don't know a lot about the subject, but my reading of the situation is that there is no NATO "fund" that countries pay into, it's just a commitment to spend a certain percentage of their GDP on their own defense.

The 2% is a goal everyone agreed to a couple of years ago.  The commitment is mutual defense, which is the cornerstone of the alliance since the 1940s.

In fact, the only time Article 5 (the mutual defense commitment that Trump became the first president not to verbally reaffirm) has been invoked was in response to 9/11.  Our NATO allies supplied air defense over the US and sent troops to Afghanistan (where they still are). 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on June 07, 2017, 10:35:45 am
Perhaps NATO needs to turn it's attention to this war against ISIS... with all members contributing equally.

Not really up on current events, are you?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 07, 2017, 05:17:38 pm
Not so...but our President let them know that the role of NATO needs to change, and the enormous amount of US tax dollars being expended needs to stop.

Let's just make this as black and white as possible:  All members of NATO are paying their share of the joint bills of NATO.  However, each member is required to spend 2% of its GDP on its own military, to support the mutual defense element of the treaty.  BUT, the 2% mark does not have to be reached until 2020 (I think), so no one is currently delinquent on this.

So when Trump says that NATO members are not paying their bills, he is lying.  And when he says that "money is pouring in" to NATO, he is lying.  The money doesn't come in to NATO, it goes to the companies that supply military hardware.  The Federal government won't see a dime of that spending.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 08, 2017, 09:42:47 am
So, yesterday, Rogers and Coats - the two Trump administration officials who, according to well-sourced press reports, were asked by Trump to pressure Comey into dropping the Russia investigation - flatly refused to answer questions about any such conversation while under oath in front of the Senate Intelligence Committee yesterday.  They were pressed and pressed and pressed by Republicans and Democrats alike, and simply stonewalled.

Let's be clear on this: these two gentlemen are the NSA Director and Director of National Intelligence respectively, so this committee is the one that has oversight of them.  And they weren't just being a bit shifty; in one exchange, Coats was asked for the legal basis upon which he was relying to refuse to answer a direct question, and he said that he was not aware of any.  Essentially, their boss asked them what they've been doing at work, and they said "Nunya!"

One Senator summed it up perfectly, saying that they were working very hard not to answer a yes/no question when a "no" answer would be so easy.  Which means the answer isn't "no".

To put this in perspective, the first article of impeachment against Nixon was the obstruction of justice charge that stemmed from his taped conversation with HR Haldeman in which he discussed the strategy of having the CIA tell the FBI to back off the Watergate investigation.  He never actually did this (that we know of), but planning to do it was enough.  Here, the DNI and NSA Director are both refusing to say that Trump did not have a conversation with them about dropping the Flynn investigation and, meanwhile, as I type, Comey will be reading his statement to the Senate Intelligence Committee - under oath - in which he will state that Trump personally told him to drop the investigation into Mike Flynn.

Nixon was ousted just for musing about doing what Trump appears to have done - ask others to obstruct justice on his behalf - and thereafter he went and did it himself.  This is not comparable to Watergate, it's so far beyond Watergate now it's ridiculous that the Trump administration hasn't already been burned to the ground to prevent further infection.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on June 08, 2017, 09:51:04 am
Nixon was ousted just for musing about doing what Trump appears to have done - ask others to obstruct justice on his behalf - and thereafter he went and did it himself.  This is not comparable to Watergate, it's so far beyond Watergate now it's ridiculous that the Trump administration hasn't already been burned to the ground to prevent further infection.

It took a very long time for the Republicans to finally turn on Nixon.  It will take even longer with Trump, if ever at all.  There are simply way more wingnut constituents out there now than there were 43 years ago. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Ty in Tampa on June 08, 2017, 09:55:11 am
It took a very long time for the Republicans to finally turn on Nixon.  It will take even longer with Trump, if ever at all.  There are simply way more wingnut constituents out there now than there were 43 years ago. 

And Nixon wasn't ousted, he quit. It will be extremely difficult to get Trump to do that.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 08, 2017, 10:02:06 am
And Nixon wasn't ousted, he quit. It will be extremely difficult to get Trump to do that.

Nixon resigned because he was told by leaders from the House and Senate - including Republicans - that he was going to be impeached.  Trump won't quit and this Congress won't impeach, or even threaten to do so...

...until their own political heads are on the chopping block - which is what drove Republicans to turn against Nixon.  They did not want to drag his dead carcass through the upcoming midterms.  Still, the Republicans lost 49 seats in the House and 4 in the Senate that year.  Such a wave would easily flip the House and Senate majorities to the Democrats in 2018, which would put them all in very serious legal peril.

Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: BizidyDizidy on June 08, 2017, 10:11:17 am
The problem is, Trump will go nuclear on the Republicans if they tried to do anything, and his (not insubstantial) group of diehard supporters could destroy the Rs at midterms.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 08, 2017, 11:11:33 am
Comey: "Lordy, I hope there are tapes."  Classic.

Interestingly, it is the 21st century so "tapes" aren't physical things.  If the recordings were made, and were electronic, and get deleted, then a computer specialist will be able to find a record of the deletions if not recover the files themselves.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on June 08, 2017, 11:13:02 am
GOP senators telling Comey that he should have stood up to Trump sooner, and more forcefully, are destroying any remaining sense of irony that was left.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 08, 2017, 11:32:11 am
GOP senators telling Comey that he should have stood up to Trump sooner, and more forcefully, are destroying any remaining sense of irony that was left.

Not Texas' John Cornyn!  No, he asked about Clinton's emails.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 08, 2017, 11:42:18 am
Not Texas' John Cornyn!  No, he asked about Clinton's emails.

McCain also discussed the FBI's investigation into "Mr Clinton's" emails, and then referred to his witness as "President Comey".

Also, there are too many states, please eliminate three.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on June 08, 2017, 11:44:31 am
McCain was lost.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on June 08, 2017, 11:49:49 am
On the other side of the things I thought Comey's slap at Lynch was more than insignificant.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on June 08, 2017, 11:52:19 am
Not Texas' John Cornyn!  No, he asked about Clinton's emails.

Headline on foxnews.com right now:

Comey says he considered calling for a special counsel for Clinton server probe
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on June 08, 2017, 11:53:50 am
McCain was lost.
I just heard it, but it was sad to hear him that way.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on June 08, 2017, 11:55:39 am
He's a straight-shooter. No wonder no one likes him.

It's tragicomic that Bill Clinton's tarmac chat with Lynch probably led to Comey's initial testimony re: the meritless email scandal, which led to his duty to correct, which led to the Anthony Weiner-related bombshell just prior to the election, which led to this disastrous presidency. It took a singularly ugly Rube Goldberg device to get where we are today. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on June 08, 2017, 11:55:57 am
I just heard it, but it was sad to hear him that way.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on June 08, 2017, 12:06:25 pm
He's a straight-shooter. No wonder no one likes him.

It's tragicomic that Bill Clinton's tarmac chat with Lynch probably led to Comey's initial testimony re: the meritless email scandal, which led to his duty to correct, which led to the Anthony Weiner-related bombshell just prior to the election, which led to this disastrous presidency. It took a singularly ugly Rube Goldberg device to get where we are today.

It wasn't just the tarmac chat.  She also tried to direct his narrative regarding the server.  Both of which were completely unnecessary.  And there's no probably about his testimony.  He said both of those things were why he came out publicly.  It looks to me like the unnecessary dick-stepping in the previous administration may have directly led to Hillary's loss.  Which then leads to the current dick-stepping in this administration.  But it also makes me think that if Hillary had been elected the same Obama admin dick-steppers would still be there dick-stepping and we'd still be sitting here watching congressional investigations into said dick-stepping.  In other words we had two bad candidates for president.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 08, 2017, 12:16:42 pm
It wasn't just the tarmac chat.  She also tried to direct his narrative regarding the server.  Both of which were completely unnecessary.  And there's no probably about his testimony.  He said both of those things were why he came out publicly.  It looks to me like the unnecessary dick-stepping in the previous administration may have directly led to Hillary's loss.  Which then leads to the current dick-stepping in this administration.  But it also makes me think that if Hillary had been elected the same Obama admin dick-steppers would still be there dick-stepping and we'd still be sitting here watching congressional investigations into said dick-stepping.  In other words we had two bad candidates for president.

Dick-stepping about having an unsecured email server on which you may have stored two or three confidential emails out of tens of thousands doesn't even come close to the President carrying around an ancient (by technology standards), unsecured Android phone on which he tweets, calls other world leaders and which can have the camera and microphone turned on by a 10-year old (or a Russian or ISIS).  And that's one of the more minor problems with the Trump presidency.

Clinton was a horrible candidate.  But there is no equivalency to what would've been her ongoing email scandal and the multiple scandals, corruption and crimes perpetrated by the Trump administration.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: BizidyDizidy on June 08, 2017, 12:48:56 pm
But what about all the people she murdered?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on June 08, 2017, 01:00:18 pm
Dick-stepping about having an unsecured email server on which you may have stored two or three confidential emails out of tens of thousands doesn't even come close to the President carrying around an ancient (by technology standards), unsecured Android phone on which he tweets, calls other world leaders and which can have the camera and microphone turned on by a 10-year old (or a Russian or ISIS).  And that's one of the more minor problems with the Trump presidency.

Clinton was a horrible candidate.  But there is no equivalency to what would've been her ongoing email scandal and the multiple scandals, corruption and crimes perpetrated by the Trump administration.

Right, but with a Clinton presidency and a GOP house and Senate we would have non-stop investigations and hearings about the White House.  Chaffetz promised as much before the election, only (along with the rest of the GOP congressmen) to suddenly get disinterested in congressional oversight after Trump won.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on June 08, 2017, 01:05:50 pm
Dick-stepping about having an unsecured email server on which you may have stored two or three confidential emails out of tens of thousands doesn't even come close to the President carrying around an ancient (by technology standards), unsecured Android phone on which he tweets, calls other world leaders and which can have the camera and microphone turned on by a 10-year old (or a Russian or ISIS).  And that's one of the more minor problems with the Trump presidency.

Clinton was a horrible candidate.  But there is no equivalency to what would've been her ongoing email scandal and the multiple scandals, corruption and crimes perpetrated by the Trump administration.

Step out of your anti-Trump fervor for a moment.  You missed the point.  Bench got part of it.  The other part is Hillary is in part blaming Comey for losing.  The reality is it was Obama's people who screwed her, and she and they didn't even know it. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 08, 2017, 01:30:29 pm
Right, but with a Clinton presidency and a GOP house and Senate we would have non-stop investigations and hearings about the White House.  Chaffetz promised as much before the election, only (along with the rest of the GOP congressmen) to suddenly get disinterested in congressional oversight after Trump won.

Yes, it would have been a massive distraction and congress would've been completely dysfunctional.  I.e. exactly as it was for the last 6 years of the Obama administration.  The difference being that the topics of the investigations would've been minor, at best, transgressions.  In the meantime, we would have had a boringly competent administration.

With Trump, we have rampant self-dealing, staggering incompetence, security breaches that are on a level wholly more serious than Clinton's server, and the stench of corruption that would make New Jersey wonder what that smell is.  Also, we're now going through a whole series of congressional investigations into Trump, so we got all the congressional-Kabuki down side anyway, to go along with this monkey-shit-fight of an administration.

#winning
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on June 08, 2017, 01:40:29 pm
Having Trump's attorney give a news conference, without taking questions just makes him look guilty.   It would have been better to just have Spicer or Huckabee get up there and bullshit for twenty minutes.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 08, 2017, 01:55:23 pm
Step out of your anti-Trump fervor for a moment.  You missed the point.  Bench got part of it.  The other part is Hillary is in part blaming Comey for losing.  The reality is it was Obama's people who screwed her, and she and they didn't even know it.

If you want to follow the thread back to the true proximate cause, it was Anthony Weiner's dick pics. 

But it was madness to nominate Clinton when they knew that she was one email revelation away from disaster.  Ironically, it turned out that she was zero email revelations away from disaster, just the word "emails" (along with her 1980s style campaign and lack of charisma) was enough to do her in.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 08, 2017, 01:55:48 pm
Having Trump's attorney give a news conference, without taking questions just makes him look guilty.   It would have been better to just have Spicer or Huckabee get up there and bullshit for twenty minutes.

That bad, huh?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on June 08, 2017, 02:09:50 pm
In my mind, yes.  It never looks good for someone to be represented by their criminal attorney.  Especially an attorney who refuses to take questions, but is comfortable with claiming that the witnesses against his client (Comey) is lying about key facts and has committed a crime by "leaking" conversations with his client.  Spicer and Huckabee are familiar, and the listener can just assume it is more of the comically incompetent administration; instead, it looks like an attorney ginning up arguments for a trial against his client.   
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: AstroNut on June 08, 2017, 03:34:04 pm
Comey should have kept his mouth shut concerning the Clinton investigation. His mistake was holding a news conference both exonerating her and then another one to announce the reopening, after the dickwagger's wife's email revelation, a few days before the election. What was that all about...say nothing until indictment. The best thing that has happened to the FBI was him getting the boot.

"He's a nut job"...did someone already say that ?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on June 08, 2017, 03:39:04 pm
and has committed a crime by "leaking" conversations with his client.

Is he claiming that releasing information regarding unclassified conversations is somehow a crime or is he implying something else?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on June 08, 2017, 03:58:56 pm
Is he claiming that releasing information regarding unclassified conversations is somehow a crime or is he implying something else?
My impression is that your characterization is correct: that Comey releasing his memos on his conversations is a crime.  Remember, he is from the Trump camp, so don't apply logic or rigor. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: AstroNut on June 08, 2017, 04:10:50 pm
Chris Matthews take on Comey testimony...

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/chris-matthews-trump-russia-collusion-theory-came-apart-with-comey-testimony/article/2625372
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 08, 2017, 04:20:13 pm
Comey should have kept his mouth shut concerning the Clinton investigation. His mistake was holding a news conference both exonerating her and then another one to announce the reopening, after the dickwagger's wife's email revelation, a few days before the election. What was that all about...say nothing until indictment. The best thing that has happened to the FBI was him getting the boot.

"He's a nut job"...did someone already say that ?

Comey said he felt it necessary to clear the air vis a vis Clinton's emails because it was so politically sensitive.  Unfortunately, that created what he described as a "duty to disclose" when they re-opened the investigation because of Weiner's laptop.  It was that action that caused an immediate and irredeemable drop in the polls for Clinton, but it was set in motion by the earlier air-clearing statements.

He isn't a nut job, he's Dudley Do-Right.  He was trying to be as upstanding as possible, but ended up boxing himself in by accident.

FYI, Trump's comments about Comey, both on Twitter and to the Russian delegation he received in the Oval Office, mean that he's S.O.L. on pushing for privilege or confidentiality on this topic.  You can't run your mouth and then claim that it's a secret.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: AstroNut on June 08, 2017, 04:32:34 pm
In the words of Hillary Clinton, this whole thing is a "NOTHING-BURGER"

No need for privilege or confidentiality on this topic


"Trump lawyer says James Comey made ‘unauthorized disclosures’ of privileged talks"

Lock him up....lock him up...lock him up.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 08, 2017, 04:45:31 pm
Chris Matthews take on Comey testimony...

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/chris-matthews-trump-russia-collusion-theory-came-apart-with-comey-testimony/article/2625372

Looking at the specific quotes from Matthews, the fact that Trump wasn't / isn't under investigation personally is a distraction.  Nevertheless, he still - according to Comey's sworn testimony - told Comey to drop the investigation into Mike Flynn.  Trump then fired Comey and said that he did it because of the Russia investigation (to Lester Holt on live TV) and that it relieved the pressure on him (to the Russians, as documented in a White House transcript).  All of that is grounds for an obstruction of justice charge whether or not Flynn is important to the Russia investigation.

The fact that Flynn isn't central to the Russia investigation is also irrelevant to Trump's actions.  We have no idea why Trump was trying to get Flynn off the FBI's radar, but just because it might not have been to stop Flynn rolling over on him doesn't mean that things didn't happen the way Comey said it did.  Also, Flynn's lawyer has stated publicly that Flynn has a story to tell and will tell it in return for immunity.  The fact that he doesn't (yet) have immunity to testify means either they don't think his story is worth it, or that they don't need to give him immunity because they have enough evidence from elsewhere, or that there is no "there" there.  The latter seemingly highly unlikely given Trump's extreme action to relieve the pressure of the investigation from himself.

In the end, that's a very cherry-picked set of quotes from Matthews, in which he muses that Comey's testimony means that there isn't any collusion between Trump and Russia.  Well, that's what Director Mueller is now charged with pursuing, so that investigation remains ongoing.  That's the thing about investigations, you keep going until you get to the end of the line.  That's why, for example, mafia investigations start by nailing a low level goon for some shit, and then getting him to roll over on the next guy up the chain.  Rinse, repeat until you reach the top.

As an interesting aside, Mueller has been adding prosecutors to his team.  Prosecutors with experience of going after organized crime.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on June 09, 2017, 09:40:00 am
It wasn't just the tarmac chat.  She also tried to direct his narrative regarding the server.  Both of which were completely unnecessary.  And there's no probably about his testimony.  He said both of those things were why he came out publicly.  It looks to me like the unnecessary dick-stepping in the previous administration may have directly led to Hillary's loss.  Which then leads to the current dick-stepping in this administration.  But it also makes me think that if Hillary had been elected the same Obama admin dick-steppers would still be there dick-stepping and we'd still be sitting here watching congressional investigations into said dick-stepping.  In other words we had two bad candidates for president.

I can certainly understand the motivation, but when millions of ordinary Republican voters pulled the lever for someone they themselves deemed unfit to serve, it's at best spurious to blame Trump's victory on the democrats. If nothing else, it condescends to those voters to imagine that they lack the agency to make good decisions independent of tribal dynamics.

Trump is happening because regular Republicans voted for him en masse. Just own it. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on June 09, 2017, 10:11:07 am
Going rather farther afield here, I've recently been really enjoying this new "writings from left, right and center" feature on NYT's Web site. Last week they posted a piece about never-Trumpers (http://www.dennisprager.com/why-conservatives-still-attack-trump/) from a talk show host named Dennis Prager. His essay begins:

"When people you know well, admire, and who share your values do something you strongly oppose, you have two options:

1) Cease admiring them or 2) try to understand them and change their minds."

I was stunned that nowhere did he acknowledge or even hint at the third option, which is to re-examine one's own beliefs and allow for a little doubt! I wonder how widespread this way of thinking is and if it is distinctly more a trend among right-leaning than left-leaning minds, (And I wonder honestly: When I brought this up among a group of similarly left family and friends the other day, no one immediately shared my reaction.)

Either way, it certainly seems to me like a fine crystallization of one of our Big Problems as a Society: that we inflexibly assume our rectitude, and our most instinctive strategies are to scorn or persuade rather than engage with doubt.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on June 09, 2017, 10:20:02 am
Going rather farther afield here, I've recently been really enjoying this new "writings from left, right and center" feature on NYT's Web site. Last week they posted a piece about never-Trumpers (http://www.dennisprager.com/why-conservatives-still-attack-trump/) from a talk show host named Dennis Prager. His essay begins:

"When people you know well, admire, and who share your values do something you strongly oppose, you have two options:

1) Cease admiring them or 2) try to understand them and change their minds."

I was stunned that nowhere did he acknowledge or even hint at the third option, which is to re-examine one's own beliefs and allow for a little doubt! I wonder how widespread this way of thinking is and if it is distinctly more a trend among right-leaning than left-leaning minds, (And I wonder honestly: When I brought this up among a group of similarly left family and friends the other day, no one immediately shared my reaction.)

Either way, it certainly seems to me like a fine crystallization of one of our Big Problems as a Society: that we inflexibly assume our rectitude, and our most instinctive strategies are to scorn or persuade rather than engage with doubt.

I would think it has less to do with right or left but how far out on the extreme of either end you are.  You get out to the extreme in large part because of the heavy strength of faith you put in your own position regardless of how well or poorly reasoned.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on June 09, 2017, 10:31:57 am
Meanwhile in the UK... that backfired. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on June 09, 2017, 10:39:54 am
Meanwhile in the UK... that backfired.

Jonah Keri nailed it:

If you call a Snap election, someone will say I've Got the Power


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on June 09, 2017, 10:40:33 am
Meanwhile in the UK... that backfired.

Jonah Keri nailed it:

If you call a Snap election, someone will say I've Got the Power


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 09, 2017, 11:08:58 am
Meanwhile in the UK... that backfired.

May's position is untenable, so she'll likely go soon.  In the meantime, the Tories are partnering with the DUP, effectively handing control of government to 10 anti-same sex marriage, anti-abortion, climate deniers (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/09/from-climate-denial-to-abortion-heres-six-dup-policies-you-should-know-about).
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on June 09, 2017, 05:34:40 pm
May's position is untenable, so she'll likely go soon.  In the meantime, the Tories are partnering with the DUP, effectively handing control of government to 10 anti-same sex marriage, anti-abortion, climate deniers (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/09/from-climate-denial-to-abortion-heres-six-dup-policies-you-should-know-about).

Just like us!
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 09, 2017, 06:44:10 pm
Trump today emphatically contradicted Comey's sworn testimony, even offering to repeat his version of events under oath. 

So now we know: there are no tapes. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 09, 2017, 08:46:01 pm
Just like us!

Putting the "special" in special relationship. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 12, 2017, 08:29:40 am
Trump today emphatically contradicted Comey's sworn testimony, even offering to repeat his version of events under oath. 

So now we know: there are no tapes.

Update on the tapes.  Trump is spinning out a thread; proclaiming that he'll make an announcement about the tapes very soon.  Because...sweeps week?  Anyway, there's a delicious irony here: Trump is using the possibility of recordings of his conversations with Comey as support for his innocence, whereas the non-existence of tapes means that his false claims on the subject could be construed as additional interference with Comey, adding more layers to potential obstruction of justice charges.  Pressuring a witness against you into silence is classic obstruction.

The first rule, when in a hole, is stop digging...
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 12, 2017, 08:33:36 am
May's position is untenable, so she'll likely go soon.  In the meantime, the Tories are partnering with the DUP, effectively handing control of government to 10 anti-same sex marriage, anti-abortion, climate deniers (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/09/from-climate-denial-to-abortion-heres-six-dup-policies-you-should-know-about).

It occurred to me over the weekend: May's election failure was the result of an attempt by her to shore up her position as PM by increasing her party's majority; while the Brexit debacle came about because May's predecessor - Cameron - wanted to throw some red meat to the extremities of his party in order to shore up his position as PM.

Cameron resigned; May will do so soon.  Hoist on their own petards.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: AstroNut on June 12, 2017, 11:42:20 am
So do you guys see an impeachment ahead for Trump?

Indictment for obstruction of justice?

Treason for talking with the Russians?

Election tampering in Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Ohio (something illegal must have happened)? Trump carries 2600 counties to Clinton 500…something fishy? Are the ignorant voters that spread out ? 84% of geographic U.S. ?

Illegal harassment of Illegal aliens?

Failure to support a constitutional amendment to outlaw an, ‘America First’, agenda, because it will hurt the feelings of other nations around the globe.
Unfair treatment of trading partner countries for demanding fair trade, as well as free trade?

Proposing a budget that will cut hundreds of billions of dollars in federal spending, just because we don't want to burden future generations with our debt?

Disregarding the global climate crisis and not looking to China as the model of good climate behavior ?

For labeling these worldwide terrorist attacks as, Radical Islamic Terrorism, and not just ignoring it until it goes away. Or at the very least, consider it isolated instances of unorganized, lone wolf attacks.


More charges are currently being debated on all the news/media outlets, Washington political halls, and foreign capitals around the world (except Moscow)…stay tuned.

We could set it up like the Nuremburg trails and have Nancy Pelosi officiate…include the Trump kids as defendants…greedy little spoiled brats. Have CNN and MCNBC bid for exclusive rights, with all proceeds going to fund Planned Parenthood ?

There is much work to be done… waiting for Mueller and the investigation to bear fruit.



Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on June 12, 2017, 11:45:58 am
So do you guys see an impeachment ahead for Trump?

Indictment for obstruction of justice?

Treason for talking with the Russians?

Election tampering in Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Ohio (something illegal must have happened)? Trump carries 2600 counties to Clinton 500…something fishy? Are the ignorant voters that spread out ? 84% of geographic U.S. ?

Illegal harassment of Illegal aliens?

Failure to support a constitutional amendment to outlaw an, ‘America First’, agenda, because it will hurt the feelings of other nations around the globe.
Unfair treatment of trading partner countries for demanding fair trade, as well as free trade?

Proposing a budget that will cut hundreds of billions of dollars in federal spending, just because we don't want to burden future generations with our debt?

Disregarding the global climate crisis and not looking to China as the model of good climate behavior ?

For labeling these worldwide terrorist attacks as, Radical Islamic Terrorism, and not just ignoring it until it goes away. Or at the very least, consider it isolated instances of unorganized, lone wolf attacks.


More charges are currently being debated on all the news/media outlets, Washington political halls, and foreign capitals around the world (except Moscow)…stay tuned.

We could set it up like the Nuremburg trails and have Nancy Pelosi officiate…include the Trump kids as defendants…greedy little spoiled brats. Have CNN and MCNBC bid for exclusive rights, with all proceeds going to fund Planned Parenthood ?

There is much work to be done… waiting for Mueller and the investigation to bear fruit.

Quoting this for posterity the next time you want to call someone a snowflake. To call this a straw man would be an insult to straw men.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: BizidyDizidy on June 12, 2017, 11:46:09 am
Well, can't say your username didn't warn us.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: AstroNut on June 12, 2017, 02:49:19 pm
Quoting this for posterity the next time you want to call someone a snowflake. To call this a straw man would be an insult to straw men.


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Snowflake?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 12, 2017, 03:04:19 pm
So do you guys see an impeachment ahead for Trump?

Not unless the House and Senate get flipped next election.  As far as high crimes or misdemeanors go, obstruction of justice worked for Nixon and Clinton.  The question is whether what Trump has done rises to the level.  There's certainly a litany of dumb-ass things he's said that would create grounds for such a charge.  According to Comey, Director Mueller is looking into whether there's an act or acts that rises to the level of criminal obstruction.  I'll let him make that call, and we'll see what Congress does with it thereafter.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: AstroNut on June 12, 2017, 04:36:59 pm
These are common people, salt of the earth. You know... morons.


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Quoting this for posterity the next time you want to call someone a snowflake. To call this a straw man would be an insult to straw men.


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Why all the name calling...sorry if my comments upset you...not all of morons are as smart and all knowing as you.

Try to accept the election results and get a grip on that anger.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on June 12, 2017, 04:38:46 pm
Why all the name calling...sorry if my comments upset you...not all of morons are as smart and all knowing as you.

Try to accept the election results and get a grip on that anger.

You are trying way too hard.
Title: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on June 12, 2017, 04:47:28 pm
Why all the name calling...sorry if my comments upset you...not all of morons are as smart and all knowing as you.

I see that quoting one movie line is now "name calling", given that in your second quote, I did not call you a name. I merely pointed out your pathetic whining.

I'm far from all knowing. Knowing what you don't know is a major part of life. But given that, I'm 100% confident that I'm smarter than the President. Given what little grasp of facts you have shown, I'm equally confident I'm smarter than you.

Quote
Try to accept the election results and get a grip on that anger.

Trolls that are far smarter and more talented than you have made me angry. You haven't come close to making me angry.

I understand the election results quite well. That doesn't mean hat I sit back and sip cocktails while I watch a buffoon destroy the presidency.

I disagree with Mike Pence on many things, but at least I don't wake up at night thinking he will accidentally start a war.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 12, 2017, 04:55:36 pm
I disagree with Mike Pence on many things, but at least I don't wake up at night thinking he will accidentally start a war.

Trump has contradicted Tillerson twice now on Qatar, siding with the Saudis rather than with his Secretary of State.  It has been speculated (by reasonable people) that, after he accused Qatar of being a state sponsor of terror, Trump did not know that the U.S. has 10,000 troops stationed there.

He will get people killed before this is over.  The only question is how many:  a lot, or apocalyptic numbers?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: WVastro on June 12, 2017, 05:28:26 pm
Try to accept the election results and get a grip on that anger.

This is the attitude that drives me nuts the most... like this election was a sporting event and there was a winner and a loser and every fucking person has to just stfu and deal with it. It literally ignores every presidency ever before this one.

I won't "try to accept" this election... why the hell should I not be angry? Can we only protest an election if we bastardize the Boston Tea Party for everything that event was against?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: AstroNut on June 12, 2017, 06:08:35 pm
MusicMan...upon hindsight, I am the one who got too emotional. MusicMan I apologize for the pointed comments.

This past election demanded a change in Washington D.C. Too bad we could not have just unelected the entire congress with one referendum vote...Congress would have lost. I think we need term limits. That may have been enough to satisfy the blood thirst.

Instead we had a choice between the two flawed candidates for POTUS. A steep price to pay for the sake of change.



Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on June 12, 2017, 06:13:56 pm
MusicMan...upon hindsight, I am the one who got too emotional. MusicMan I apologize for the pointed comments.

Good man. Apology accepted.

Now, let's Make the Astros Rotation Healthy Again


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 13, 2017, 08:47:49 am
Yesterday's cabinet meeting (https://youtu.be/eLx0i1vuBWs).
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 15, 2017, 01:57:51 pm
Trump has contradicted Tillerson twice now on Qatar, siding with the Saudis rather than with his Secretary of State.  It has been speculated (by reasonable people) that, after he accused Qatar of being a state sponsor of terror, Trump did not know that the U.S. has 10,000 troops stationed there.

He will get people killed before this is over.  The only question is how many:  a lot, or apocalyptic numbers?

Today, the US govt sold $12 billion of F-15s to Qatar.  Because...MAGA?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 15, 2017, 04:54:59 pm
The Washington Post reported that Mueller is definitely investigating Trump for potential criminal obstruction arising out of the whole "Flynn thing".

Meanwhile, Mike Pence - who has been getting overlooked in all the noise around Trump, but has been caught repeatedly lying about what he knew and when he knew it - just lawyered up.

Sessions yesterday denied having had any meetings with lobbyists working on behalf of Russian interests.  At least, he said he didn't recall any.  Today, a lobbyist who worked on behalf of Russian interests claimed to have had multiple meetings with Sessions in that capacity during the campaign.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: AstroNut on June 15, 2017, 10:14:24 pm
Witch hunt...what a waste of taxpayer money. It is unbelievable the ends that the establishment will go to see that Trump fails...sad.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on June 16, 2017, 12:32:11 am
Sessions yesterday denied having had any meetings with lobbyists working on behalf of Russian interests.  At least, he said he didn't recall any.  Today, a lobbyist who worked on behalf of Russian interests claimed to have had multiple meetings with Sessions in that capacity during the campaign.

Trump's little garden gnome is obviously none too bright. None of them seems to be, really. But that doesn't strike me as all that unusual. What I have been wondering about and what I may never discover once this is all over is what the fuck were these people thinking? I assume they thought that Trump would never win and as a result none of this would ever really come to light, and that anything untoward that was happening would embarrass and weaken Clinton so it was in some way justifiable.

The Obama White House told GOP leadership that Russia was fucking with the election and the GOP said, Right on! That I get. I don't see how inaction or disinterest is necessarily criminal in that case. But collusion? Mueller seems among many other things to be looking at money laundering which would point to collusion. Did these guys really think this would never surface?

And the constant lying about meeting with various people? Hey, Beauregard, people film everything these days. If you say you didn't meet with someone (under oath, by the way) but seven people have film or pictures of it, I mean, really, what are you doing?

Trump is an simple manchild and he thinks, quite correctly, given his history, that he can do whatever he wants and nothing will touch him. And for now he's secure knowing that the House won't do anything about any obstruction charges which will inevitably emerge. The obstruction part of this is the least interesting piece to me, partly because it's so obvious, so plain, and partly because in Trump's case nothing will come of it, at least not until he's had plenty of time to do god knows what kind of stupid shit. But the obstruction piece may well end up being the lynchpin to all of this because all sorts of fuckwit underlings will end up being charged with obstruction, too, and to save their own skin those cocksuckers will roll over faster than you can sneeze.

They'll serve three years in a white collar prison and then get their own show on redneck radio. It'll be great.

But really, what were these guys thinking? Did they think that Clinton would win and none of this would get exposed because no one would be interested?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Navin R Johnson on June 16, 2017, 02:53:14 am
Witch hunt...what a waste of taxpayer money. It is unbelievable the ends that the establishment will go to see that Trump fails...sad.

People who still support this orange turd.....SAD!    The opposite of MAGA.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on June 16, 2017, 07:58:52 am
Trump's little garden gnome is obviously none too bright. None of them seems to be, really.
.........
Trump is an simple manchild and he thinks, quite correctly, given his history, that he can do whatever he wants and nothing will touch him.
.........

But really, what were these guys thinking? Did they think that Clinton would win and none of this would get exposed because no one would be interested?

I constantly struggle with my understanding of this crew.  It seems like every week, they reveal themselves as stupider than the week before.  They have expanding my conception of the black swan phenomenon: the mixing of very low-probabilities of stupidity, arrogance, and luck in an environment ruled by angry tribal supporters.

However, I'm not willing to give them enough credit to conclude that they could even contemplate that Trump would lose and this would never be uncovered.  To me, it seems like your observation of the leader is spot on, and they, being really fucking stupid and insecure, just follow along.  Foresight isn't in their DNA.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 16, 2017, 08:19:15 am
Witch hunt...what a waste of taxpayer money. It is unbelievable the ends that the establishment will go to see that Trump fails...sad.

Still trying to decide if you're being ironic or not, but it's a fraction under 140 characters so...golf clap!
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 16, 2017, 08:28:15 am
Last night, DAG Rosenstein issued a bizarre written public statement, basically telling us to ignore what we read in the press if the sources are anonymous.  It was an odd statement in and of itself, made even more curious by admonishing us to also consider the country of origin of the anonymous source.  It's almost as if Trump wrote it himself.  Is he worried that there may be tapes reports coming out of, say, Russia, that may or may not have yellow stains on them?

It's also laughable on its face because just the day before, the NTY and WaPo published overlapping reports - sourced anonymously - about Trump now being under investigation for criminal obstruction, which Trump then confirmed the following morning in a tweet.  It's hard to disregard anonymous sources when Trump himself confirms their validity.

Lastly, and this is a good one, how is Rosenstein still involved in the Trump investigation?  Given his role in trying to put a fig leaf over Trump's firing of Comey (which Trump blew away a day or two later), Rosenstein is now a material witness in the obstruction case.  Doesn't he now have to recuse himself from oversight of an investigation in which he's a witness?  Especially given his memo about anonymous sources, which sounds a little obstructiony itself.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 16, 2017, 08:37:41 am
Meanwhile, Mike Pence - who has been getting overlooked in all the noise around Trump, but has been caught repeatedly lying about what he knew and when he knew it - just lawyered up.

As an aside, this explains Pence's unusual move - never done before by a sitting VP - of creating his own reelection SuperPAC.  He did this a few weeks ago and has been fundraising ever since, including a $5000-a-plate shindig last night.  Pence can pay his personal attorneys from SuperPAC money*.

* SuperPACs are such a scam.  They do plenty of damage to the political discourse, but they're mostly there to pay for lawyers, jets and fat salaries for the fund executives.  Trump's PAC spent most of its money through Trump-owned businesses, so it really was just a large vacuum cleaner sucking up money into his back pocket.

As to the identity of Pence's lawyer?  Unlike Trump - who was black-balled by the major Washington law firms due to his track record of not paying lawyers' (or anyone else's) bills - Pence got a guy who at least knows the playing field he's on as he was on the government's (losing) side in both Watergate and Iran-Contra.  Trump's guy was on the losing side in the Trump University and many other failed Trump ego-suits.

They're bringing blasters to a fight with Darth Vader.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 16, 2017, 09:15:01 am
Last one on this topic (until the next major bombshell development...i.e. 10 - 15 minutes).

Trump tweeted this morning:
“I am being investigated for firing the FBI Director by the man who told me to fire the FBI Director!  Witch Hunt.”

Think about this:  Trump is attacking the guy who followed orders to write a memo justifying Trump's firing of Director Comey, which Trump then said was irrelevant because he was going to fire Comey anyway because of the "Trump-Russia thing".  That statement, reportedly, was the catalyst for Director Mueller to turn his attention to possible criminal obstruction by Trump.  And now it's somehow Rosenstein's fault?  Trump in this complaint is somehow trying to turn the clock back to before the time he opened his fat mouth to Lester Holt when there was at least a semblance of pretext about the reason for Comey's termination.  Maybe he doesn't realise that the rest of us have an attention span longer than a goldfish.

Oh, and First Son-in-Law Kushner's business dealings are being investigated as to possible connections to Russian money laundering activities.  Mueller has been further beefing up his investigation and prosecution teams people highly respected in the fields of money laundering and organized crime; so that's a pretty strong signal as to where this investigation is now going.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on June 16, 2017, 10:10:11 am
Last night, DAG Rosenstein issued a bizarre written public statement, basically telling us to ignore what we read in the press if the sources are anonymous.  It was an odd statement in and of itself, made even more curious by admonishing us to also consider the country of origin of the anonymous source.  It's almost as if Trump wrote it himself.  Is he worried that there may be tapes reports coming out of, say, Russia, that may or may not have yellow stains on them?

It's also laughable on its face because just the day before, the NTY and WaPo published overlapping reports - sourced anonymously - about Trump now being under investigation for criminal obstruction, which Trump then confirmed the following morning in a tweet.  It's hard to disregard anonymous sources when Trump himself confirms their validity.

Lastly, and this is a good one, how is Rosenstein still involved in the Trump investigation?  Given his role in trying to put a fig leaf over Trump's firing of Comey (which Trump blew away a day or two later), Rosenstein is now a material witness in the obstruction case.  Doesn't he now have to recuse himself from oversight of an investigation in which he's a witness?  Especially given his memo about anonymous sources, which sounds a little obstructiony itself.

But the Times harms its credibility when it publishes an editorial based on a lie.  It certainly should make readers wonder what is true and what isn't as it's published there.  When readers laugh that they'll have to wait a day or two to see if they offer a retraction the Times has a real problem.  Too it gives ammo to the right who question their motives and credibility.

HTF does that shooting editorial get through the process?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on June 16, 2017, 10:43:37 am
Trump tweeted this morning:
“I am being investigated for firing the FBI Director by the man who told me to fire the FBI Director!  Witch Hunt.”
Trump is being investigated by that little man inside his head?  An investigation sure to lead nowhere.



Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on June 16, 2017, 10:47:38 am
But the Times harms its credibility when it publishes an editorial based on a lie.  It certainly should make readers wonder what is true and what isn't as it's published there.  When readers laugh that they'll have to wait a day or two to see if they offer a retraction the Times has a real problem.  Too it gives ammo to the right who question their motives and credibility.

HTF does that shooting editorial get through the process?

Which editorial?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on June 16, 2017, 10:54:13 am
Which editorial?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/14/opinion/steve-scalise-congress-shot-alexandria-virginia.html

Their retraction is at the bottom.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on June 16, 2017, 10:57:11 am
Which editorial?

The one that decries gun violence in general and political gun violence in particular. It made the mistake of associating one right wing nutcase's actions with the objectionable political propaganda of a different right wing idiot. Apparently the two simply share sensibilities rather than causal links.

The editorial was not "based" on this misapprehension, and any attempts to portray institutions such as the Times or the Post as anything other than standardly reliable journalistic outlets (that rush to correct their errors) are comical.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on June 16, 2017, 11:13:49 am
The one that decries gun violence in general and political gun violence in particular. It made the mistake of associating one right wing nutcase's actions with the objectionable political propaganda of a different right wing idiot. Apparently the two simply share sensibilities rather than causal links.

The editorial was not "based" on this misapprehension, and any attempts to portray institutions such as the Times or the Post as anything other than standardly reliable journalistic outlets (that rush to correct their errors) are comical.

WTF?  They specifically linked the politically related shooting this week with the Gabby Giffords shooting claiming it was right-wing politically motivated when it was not.  That type of motivation is the foundation of the editorial.  And how the hell did they get the old Palin thing wrong?  It reads like the editors rushed the hell out of it; thought what they wrote was accurate and so didn't bother to fact check themselves.  If they had that entire editorial would read completely different or not exist at all.

This may not harm the Times general sense of reliability, but it certainly makes the editorial board look partisan.  And what they'll get for all of this is right-wingers using it to question the integrity of every other story rather than what they intended which was to further the case for gun control.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on June 16, 2017, 11:20:06 am
The Times editorial board is absolutely partisan. As is the WSJ's. As is every other editorial board.

People, in general, need to differentiate between editorial boards and news reporters.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on June 16, 2017, 11:32:40 am
The Times editorial board is absolutely partisan. As is the WSJ's. As is every other editorial board.

People, in general, need to differentiate between editorial boards and news reporters.


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Fair enough.  So did they just get lazy or willfully lie?  Either way it looks bad.  But worse it gives ammo to those who don't like them.  They dickstepped and we'll see if there's any real fallout.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 16, 2017, 11:36:30 am
WTF?  They specifically linked the politically related shooting this week with the Gabby Giffords shooting claiming it was right-wing politically motivated when it was not.  That type of motivation is the foundation of the editorial.  And how the hell did they get the old Palin thing wrong?  It reads like the editors rushed the hell out of it; thought what they wrote was accurate and so didn't bother to fact check themselves.  If they had that entire editorial would read completely different or not exist at all.

This may not harm the Times general sense of reliability, but it certainly makes the editorial board look partisan.  And what they'll get for all of this is right-wingers using it to question the integrity of every other story rather than what they intended which was to further the case for gun control.

The editorial board is allowed to be partisan, if it wants, because it's opinion, not reportage.  This is the exact distinction that Fox News uses when their morning muppets and evening spittal generators promote long-debunked falsehoods and outrageous conspiracies.  The TImes article appeared in the opinion section and even has "opinion" in the URL.  This is why they corrected their factual error but left the article up.

Trump has talked about "second amendment people" being able to stop Hillary if the political process couldn't; famed nutjob Sharron Angle also talked about people resorting to "second amendment remedies" if they didn't like election results.  These people are flicking matches in a gasoline depot; just because you don't see their match ignite the explosion doesn't mean that it was ok to be doing so.

And, yes, it's not accurate to say that Sarah Palin's crosshairs were on Giffords herself; it was just on her district... that she represents...

I realize that this is imagery and not a direct call for assassination, but the problem is that - instead of accepting that such imagery was ill-advised even though not directly responsible for the action of a mentally unstable individual - the response is to attack the messenger and call people idiots for thinking there is a connection between increasingly violent rhetoric and imagery in politics and increasingly violent behavior in the political arena.  So, the Times stands by it's opinion, while correcting a technical error in the support for their argument.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on June 16, 2017, 11:40:42 am
Fair enough.  So did they just get lazy or willfully lie?  Either way it looks bad.  But worse it gives ammo to those who don't like them.  They dickstepped and we'll see if there's any real fallout.

I'd say lazy. Lazy explains a great many mistakes.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Jacksonian on June 16, 2017, 11:46:20 am
I'd say lazy. Lazy explains a great many mistakes.


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I agree.  This is what bothers me though.  The left wasn't their target audience.  The hard lefties here and elsewhere saying don't mind it aren't helping.  Their target are those in the middle who don't feel strongly either way.  This kind of stupid mistake doesn't help win them over.  The Times HAS to be better to win them over.  I know they've lost readers so maybe all of this is for nothing if they don't reach their target audience anyway.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 16, 2017, 11:47:28 am
Fair enough.  So did they just get lazy or willfully lie?  Either way it looks bad.  But worse it gives ammo to those who don't like them.  They dickstepped and we'll see if there's any real fallout.

It'll be the rationale for decrying every damaging report as "fake news!"  Then, 2 hours later, Trump will blurt out something that confirms that the news wasn't fake.  This is a consistent pattern.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on June 16, 2017, 12:53:13 pm
I agree.  This is what bothers me though.  The left wasn't their target audience.  The hard lefties here and elsewhere saying don't mind it aren't helping.  Their target are those in the middle who don't feel strongly either way.  This kind of stupid mistake doesn't help win them over.  The Times HAS to be better to win them over.  I know they've lost readers so maybe all of this is for nothing if they don't reach their target audience anyway.

Who don't feel strongly either way about what?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 16, 2017, 01:12:32 pm
Who don't feel strongly either way about what?

Trump hit a 60% disapproval rating this week.  Only one other President has ever plumbed that depth since they started polling such things, and that was W. Bush when he was well into his 2nd term, after Iraq and Katrina.  Trump got there in 144 days.

Trump is also only the 3rd President ever to be under criminal investigation while in office; the others being Nixon and Clinton.  Both those others got there well into their 2nd terms, being Watergate and BlowJobGate respectively.  Trump got there, for Flynn-a-Lago (h/t MusicMan), in 144 days.

Today, Trump appointed his family's event planner to be the head of the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development's Region II, which includes New York and New Jersey.  She has no experience of any kind to justify this position.  However, in addition to planning events for the Trumps, she also helps run Eric Trump's charity - the one that's just been accused of skimming hundreds of thousands of dollars from kids with cancer.  HUD's Region II's budget runs to the billions, so there's nothing to worry about here.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: AstroNut on June 16, 2017, 11:14:02 pm
Still trying to decide if you're being ironic or not, but it's a fraction under 140 characters so...golf clap!

No irony intended...

The best political interview I heard recently was when Megan Kelly inquired to Putin about the Russians affecting the U.S. election and Russian influence on Trump...response..."I never met the man...have you people lost your minds over there "... fortunately not 85% of the country...geographically.

The establishment is still crying a river...




Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on June 16, 2017, 11:50:24 pm
fortunately not 85% of the country...geographically.

I enjoy this line of reasoning particularly, the one that posits that there is some outsized meaning in the three inbreds that live in a Brewster-sized county in East Asslick, Wyoming, that they get off their sister long enough to figure out how to vote for President Pussy Grabber and that somehow has greater value than the 100,000 people who vote in urban zip codes where people usually put on their pants to go to Walmart.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 17, 2017, 06:16:23 am
No irony intended...

The best political interview I heard recently was when Megan Kelly inquired to Putin about the Russians affecting the U.S. election and Russian influence on Trump...response..."I never met the man...have you people lost your minds over there "... fortunately not 85% of the country...geographically.

The establishment is still crying a river...

This right here is the problem: you are taking the word of a mass-murderer over the findings of the US intelligence services. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 20, 2017, 08:59:20 am
Reports say that Trump has mostly abdicated his responsibilities as Commander-in-Chief to his Secretary of Defense and "the Generals".  Well, in recent days, we've had a collision between a US Destroyer and a container ship in the Sea of Japan that cost the lives of 7 US sailors - a tragic accident the aftermath of which might have been more appropriately handled if we had an Ambassador to Japan and/or a Secretary of the Navy.  I do believe the CiC tweeted out his condolences, however.

Also, we shot down a Syrian fighter over Syria; prompting the Russians to say they will shoot down any US planes that stray west of the Euphrates.  This is what happens when you elect a lazy, entitled man-child to the most powerful job on the planet.  Fucking chaos.  Without any coherent or even expressed policy on almost everything, the government departments - including the military - are left to make it up as they go along.

This will get is already out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Navin R Johnson on June 20, 2017, 09:45:00 am
Unfilled positions

Anyone have a link to compare Trump unfilled positions to where Obama, Bush, Clinton were at this time into their presidencies?    It seems like Trump is way behind on this, but I don't know for sure.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 20, 2017, 10:10:13 am
Unfilled positions

Anyone have a link to compare Trump unfilled positions to where Obama, Bush, Clinton were at this time into their presidencies?    It seems like Trump is way behind on this, but I don't know for sure.

I saw the other day that, by this stage in their first terms, Bush and Obama had circa 150 positions filled each while Trump is in the low-40s.  Last I saw, he's only put up an nominee for just over 100 of the 559 jobs that are Senate-confirmed positions; Trump is massively behind in filling positions that don't require confirmation too.  Presumably because he's run out of sons-in-law.

The big(ly) problem is that people do not want to work for Trump's administration (http://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/31/russia-investigation-trump-appointees-238954), perhaps because they don't want to end up in jail.  When your lawyers are hiring lawyers, it's not a good look for prospective employees.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on June 20, 2017, 10:11:32 am
Unfilled positions

Anyone have a link to compare Trump unfilled positions to where Obama, Bush, Clinton were at this time into their presidencies?    It seems like Trump is way behind on this, but I don't know for sure.

The Link (http://money.cnn.com/2017/06/07/news/economy/trump-staffing-vacancies/index.html)

President Trump has roughly 1,100 top-tier positions to fill across his administration.

So far, he's nominated only 111 of them.

No president in modern history has fallen so far behind in naming heads of agencies, assistant secretaries, ambassadors and other critical leadership roles that require Senate approval.

As of Tuesday, only 41 of Trump's 111 nominees have cleared the Senate, according to data compiled by the Partnership for Public Service, a nonpartisan, nonprofit that has tracked presidential appointments since 1989.

In the first four months of their administrations, former presidents Barack Obama and George W. Bush each named more than 200 nominees, with more than half of them approved by the Senate.


Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Navin R Johnson on June 20, 2017, 10:17:49 am
Well, that's not good.  Maybe they need to add a iPad with LinkedIn to his golf cart.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 20, 2017, 10:18:38 am
President Trump has roughly 1,100 top-tier positions to fill across his administration.

It doesn't help when he fires all 50 US Attorneys.  It's not unusual for a new administration to replace most or all of the USA's, but typically they have a fucking clue as to who will take over those jobs.  Trump kicked them all out in one day, without warning, without a plan to replace them and without any opportunity to effect any kind of transition to the next person.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on June 20, 2017, 10:33:45 am
It doesn't help when he fires all 50 US Attorneys.  It's not unusual for a new administration to replace most or all of the USA's, but typically they have a fucking clue as to who will take over those jobs.  Trump kicked them all out in one day, without warning, without a plan to replace them and without any opportunity to effect any kind of transition to the next person.

Same thing with the non-career ambassadors. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 20, 2017, 11:48:41 am
Same thing with the non-career ambassadors.

Yep.  I think we are without Ambassadors to Canada and Britain, and without Ambassadors to Japan and South Korea - which is important given the crap going on with North Korea at the moment.  Japan's PM isn't always going to be at dinner on the patio at Mar-a-Lago when the shit goes down, but at least he has Trump's unsecured cell phone number.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Ty in Tampa on June 20, 2017, 01:07:34 pm
It doesn't help when he fires all 50 US Attorneys.  It's not unusual for a new administration to replace most or all of the USA's, but typically they have a fucking clue as to who will take over those jobs.  Trump kicked them all out in one day, without warning, without a plan to replace them and without any opportunity to effect any kind of transition to the next person.

He drained the drinking water reservoir and left the swamp.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on June 20, 2017, 06:01:03 pm
Yep.  I think we are without Ambassadors to Canada and Britain, and without Ambassadors to Japan and South Korea - which is important given the crap going on with North Korea at the moment.  Japan's PM isn't always going to be at dinner on the patio at Mar-a-Lago when the shit goes down, but at least he has Trump's unsecured cell phone number.

According to the American Foreign Service Association (http://www.afsa.org/list-ambassadorial-appointments) there are 57 countries with no current ambassador.

Significantly:  Afghanistan, Australia, every major European nation including the EU and NATO, South Korea, Japan,  Quatar, Saudi Arabia, 7 of 10 UN ambassadors. 

But none of these sins of omission are as appalling as the sin of commission McConnell and Co. are committing with the massive tax cut to the very wealthy "healthcare" bill.  A fucking appalling insult to democracy and fundamental human decency. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: AstroNut on June 20, 2017, 09:53:49 pm
Two more elections hacked by the Russians:

S. Carolina 5th

Georgia 6th...$50 million in California money could not pull it off...must have been the Ruskies. Jimmy Carter needs to look into this. Did Newt have any contact with the Russians ?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: austro on June 20, 2017, 10:05:00 pm
Georgia 6th...$50 million in California money could not pull it off...must have been the Ruskies. Jimmy Carter needs to look into this. Did Newt have any contact with the Russians ?

Yeah, nothing to see here, nothing for the R's to worry about. A district that has traditionally been so red that nobody even thought about it is now a toss-up because Trump is so toxic. Just keep on whistling past that graveyard. Maybe they can enact some more ridiculous disenfranchisement policies.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on June 20, 2017, 10:36:14 pm
Two more elections hacked by the Russians:

S. Carolina 5th

Georgia 6th...$50 million in California money could not pull it off...must have been the Ruskies. Jimmy Carter needs to look into this. Did Newt have any contact with the Russians ?

Have you always been such an insufferable dick?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Navin R Johnson on June 20, 2017, 11:01:17 pm
Have you always been such an insufferable dick?

He likes Donald fucking Trump, so the odds are pretty good.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on June 20, 2017, 11:03:09 pm
Yeah, nothing to see here, nothing for the R's to worry about. A district that has traditionally been so red that nobody even thought about it is now a toss-up because Trump is so toxic. Just keep on whistling past that graveyard. Maybe they can enact some more ridiculous disenfranchisement policies.

I understand what happens in East Asslick, but I'm amazed that in a predominantly high income area full of reasonably successful professionals that there would be 150,000 of them who'd watch six months of this shitshow and decide, Yep, this seems great, let's have us some more of it.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: austro on June 20, 2017, 11:08:33 pm
I understand what happens in East Asslick, but I'm amazed that in a predominantly high income area full of reasonably successful professionals that there would be 150,000 of them who'd watch six months of this shitshow and decide, Yep, this seems great, let's have us some more of it.

They're gonna get them some tax cuts!
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: AstroNut on June 20, 2017, 11:09:41 pm
I understand what happens in East Asslick, but I'm amazed that in a predominantly high income area full of reasonably successful professionals that there would be 150,000 of them who'd watch six months of this shitshow and decide, Yep, this seems great, let's have us some more of it.

Perhaps a vast majority of those 150,000 think someone else is responsible for,"this shitshow"...maybe the swamp dwellers who have fucked things up for so long.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: austro on June 20, 2017, 11:27:33 pm
Perhaps a vast majority of those 150,000 think someone else is responsible for,"this shitshow"...maybe the swamp dwellers who have fucked things up for so long.

They probably do believe that, but their team is the one that flat out refused to do anything for eight years. It's not an admirable record.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: moriartp on June 21, 2017, 06:04:53 am
Democrats should not be encouraged by Ossoff's performance. He didn't even match Clinton's margin in the district. The takeaway should be that most Republicans who don't like Trump still vote Republican. Winning back Obama-Trump voters is more achievable than flipping the "Panera Bread" southern suburban white vote.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on June 21, 2017, 07:21:14 am
Democrats should not be encouraged by Ossoff's performance. He didn't even match Clinton's margin in the district. The takeaway should be that most Republicans who don't like Trump still vote Republican. Winning back Obama-Trump voters is more achievable than flipping the "Panera Bread" southern suburban white vote.

Where are you getting your info?  Last I read Ossoff got 48.1%, compared to Clinton's 46.8%.  The Dem challenger got 38.3% last November.  Obama got 37.5% in 2012.  Both sides will spin it how they will...the Republicans will say "see, we still won", Democrats will say "we came damn close to winning a seat that seven months ago was impossible".  Trump will continue to be Trump and America will continue to lose. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 21, 2017, 11:46:42 am
Where are you getting your info?  Last I read Ossoff got 48.1%, compared to Clinton's 46.8%.  The Dem challenger got 38.3% last November.  Obama got 37.5% in 2012.  Both sides will spin it how they will...the Republicans will say "see, we still won", Democrats will say "we came damn close to winning a seat that seven months ago was impossible".  Trump will continue to be Trump and America will continue to lose.

...and Karen Handel is a truly awful person to be an elected official.

At the end of the day, the Democrats do need to reflect on the fact that they've gone 0-4 in these special elections.  I have no confidence that the Republicans won't be able to spin all the shit that has and will happen into a scary story for which they are the only security blanket, and middle America will fall for it again.

If the UK elections have shown anything, the antidote to conservatives saying "Boo!" is to have a definitive and distinctive set of policies that demonstrate a credible contrast to the incumbent government.  The Labour Party was meant to be crushed into oblivion by the snap election, but instead came within a whisker of flipping the government.  Democrats don't need a vanilla, establishment candidate (Clinton), they need a contrasting, crusading candidate (Sanders).

Sanders missed his window; they need to find his understudy and get him ready.  If they think that they will win in 2018 by being "not Trump", they will merely repeat Hillary's failure.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: AstroNut on June 21, 2017, 01:17:45 pm
What many fail to realize is that irregardless of your opinion of Trump...many in middle America just want the old politics to go away....the drain the swamp mentality...it's not a republican vs democrat thing...they want all the career politicians, lobbyist, and Washington leeches gone...Sanders and Trump were anti status quo.

Much of the onslaught and over the top barrage of Trump hate is from the power brokers who are scared shitless to lose their power...Rep, Dem, Corporate...power that they have garnered without the blessing of the American people.

Congress was suppose to be a part time service where you went to try to solve the issues facing the people...it has become a career where one caters to the special interest for personal gain without regard to the constiuents.

Time for a new party...I don't care if you call it Tea Party, Trumpster (Trump is neither Rep or Dem), Socialist(Sanders)...the people just want their tax dollars to stop being stolen. THE TREASURY IS BROKE.


Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on June 21, 2017, 01:29:16 pm
Oddly enough, I can agree with most of those goals, but I'd never conclude that Trump has made one single stride towards those goals, not would I ever believe he intended to.  It's more "same as the old boss," just a stupider, vainer and less coherent one.

If the swamp is powerful men catering to their self interest, Trump is truly King of the Swamp. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 21, 2017, 01:44:18 pm
Time for a new party...I don't care if you call it Tea Party, Trumpster (Trump is neither Rep or Dem), Socialist(Sanders)...the people just want their tax dollars to stop being stolen. THE TREASURY IS BROKE.

This is what Trump promised, and it's 180 degrees from what he's delivering.  And by stacking the courts with his toadie nominees, he'll ensure the swamp endures and thrives for a generation.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: BudGirl on June 21, 2017, 01:46:32 pm
What many fail to realize is that irregardless of your opinion of Trump...many in middle America just want the old politics to go away....the drain the swamp mentality...it's not a republican vs democrat thing...they want all the career politicians, lobbyist, and Washington leeches gone...Sanders and Trump were anti status quo.

Much of the onslaught and over the top barrage of Trump hate is from the power brokers who are scared shitless to lose their power...Rep, Dem, Corporate...power that they have garnered without the blessing of the American people.

Congress was suppose to be a part time service where you went to try to solve the issues facing the people...it has become a career where one caters to the special interest for personal gain without regard to the constiuents.

Time for a new party...I don't care if you call it Tea Party, Trumpster (Trump is neither Rep or Dem), Socialist(Sanders)...the people just want their tax dollars to stop being stolen. THE TREASURY IS BROKE.




I'm all about getting rid of career politicians.  I'm all for term-limits.  I don't think many of those elected officials represent the people, but represent businesses.  But, I in no way think Trump is going to do any of the things you think he is going to do.  I also think too many people pick their party and don't vote for anyone else.

You want to get people out of Washington, don't vote for an incumbent.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Waldo on June 21, 2017, 02:10:03 pm
Unfilled positions

Anyone have a link to compare Trump unfilled positions to where Obama, Bush, Clinton were at this time into their presidencies?    It seems like Trump is way behind on this, but I don't know for sure.

Late to the party here but Washington Post has a good running summary of this.  Haven't seen it posted yet.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/trump-administration-appointee-tracker/database/
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 21, 2017, 03:00:40 pm
Late to the party here but Washington Post has a good running summary of this.  Haven't seen it posted yet.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/trump-administration-appointee-tracker/database/

Somewhat apt that the number of posts missing a nominee is "404".
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on June 21, 2017, 03:14:19 pm
I'm all about getting rid of career politicians.  I'm all for term-limits.  I don't think many of those elected officials represent the people, but represent businesses.  But, I in no way think Trump is going to do any of the things you think he is going to do.  I also think too many people pick their party and don't vote for anyone else.

You want to get people out of Washington, don't vote for an incumbent.

It is amazing that anyone could take even a passing look at Trump and see a reformer rather than a grifter.  Here's how his "reforms" work: (https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/trump-seeks-sharp-cuts-to-housing-aid-except-for-program-that-brings-him-millions/2017/06/20/bf1fb2b8-5531-11e7-ba90-f5875b7d1876_story.html?utm_term=.cc40c0596135)

President Trump’s budget calls for sharply reducing funding for programs that shelter the poor and combat homelessness — with a notable exception: It leaves intact a type of federal housing subsidy that is paid directly to private landlords.

One of those landlords is Trump himself, who earns millions of dollars each year as a part-owner of Starrett City, the nation’s largest subsidized housing complex.
***
Trump once called Starrett City “one of the best investments I ever made,” but it was his father who was an investor in its construction, according to a representative of Starrett City.


I totally get the "throw out the bums" mentality, but generally the next step is not to replace them with a bigger bum.  None of Trump's proposed policies make government more transparent or accountable.  The unifying theme to them, whether it be healthcare/taxes, the budget, the Muslim ban, the massive deportations, are cruelty to those without with a massive transfer of wealth to the pockets of the ultra-rich.     
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 21, 2017, 03:26:25 pm
I totally get the "throw out the bums" mentality, but generally the next step is not to replace them with a bigger bum.  None of Trump's proposed policies make government more transparent or accountable.  The unifying theme to them, whether it be healthcare/taxes, the budget, the Muslim ban, the massive deportations, are cruelty to those without with a massive transfer of wealth to the pockets of the ultra-rich.   


He's not even bright enough to cover his tracks.  He and his family are already directly benefiting from Federal dollars, and those of foreign governments, being channeled directly into Trump family owned businesses; Mar-a-Lago summit meetings and weekend visits, the Secret Service taking a floor in Trump Tower, the DC hotel, Ivanka getting retail licenses in Japan the day after she sat in on the meeting with the Japanese Prime Minister, Jared's sister selling investment visas for $500k a go...etc. etc. ad nauseam.

Even the one year of Trump's taxes that we've seen - after the summary page was leaked by, many believe, Trump himself - was an own goal.  It showed that he paid circa $30mm in taxes on circa $150mm of income, which is a chunky rate.  But the summary showed that the $30mm was almost entirely due under AMT rules, and he would otherwise have paid about $1.5mm in taxes.  Guess what he wants to go away under his new tax laws: AMT.  He also wants to slash corporate rates and eliminate the estate tax.  All of which will cut his and his family's tax bills dramatically.

They are leaches.  They were attached in an effort to make us better but the reality is that they're just sucking out our lifeblood.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on June 21, 2017, 03:35:02 pm
It is amazing that anyone could take even a passing look at Trump and see a reformer rather than a grifter.  Here's how his "reforms" work: (https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/trump-seeks-sharp-cuts-to-housing-aid-except-for-program-that-brings-him-millions/2017/06/20/bf1fb2b8-5531-11e7-ba90-f5875b7d1876_story.html?utm_term=.cc40c0596135)

President Trump’s budget calls for sharply reducing funding for programs that shelter the poor and combat homelessness — with a notable exception: It leaves intact a type of federal housing subsidy that is paid directly to private landlords.

One of those landlords is Trump himself, who earns millions of dollars each year as a part-owner of Starrett City, the nation’s largest subsidized housing complex.
***
Trump once called Starrett City “one of the best investments I ever made,” but it was his father who was an investor in its construction, according to a representative of Starrett City.


I totally get the "throw out the bums" mentality, but generally the next step is not to replace them with a bigger bum.  None of Trump's proposed policies make government more transparent or accountable.  The unifying theme to them, whether it be healthcare/taxes, the budget, the Muslim ban, the massive deportations, are cruelty to those without with a massive transfer of wealth to the pockets of the ultra-rich.   

There are so many, but one of the most galling to me is the continuation, after the election of "Invest in my business for 500K, and I'll give you a Visa."  As of the date of this article, the "family" had already raised 50 mil for Trump branded properties.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/in-a-beijing-ballroom-kushner-family-flogs-500000-investor-visa-to-wealthy-chinese/2017/05/06/cf711e53-eb49-4f9a-8dea-3cd836fcf287_story.html?utm_term=.9c30ac75af3b

The poster child of naked corruption.  I know it involves many more scumbags than Trump, but the idea that Trump supporters characterize him as draining the swamp is so fucking weak.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on June 21, 2017, 05:53:44 pm
I think for a lot of drain the swamp types 'reform' to them simply signifies 'not Hillary.'

This administration can sell the nation (and its pride) to for-profit prisons, predatory student loan jackals and their for-profit charter school charlatans, to the cronies who'll take huge subsidies and build toll roads, to Russian steel companies and to Rosneft, to select, despicable Middle Eastern kleptocracies, to Glaxo, Merck and Pfizer, and these idiots will not stir at all so long as Trump continues to succeed at not being Hillary.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 21, 2017, 06:41:56 pm
There are so many, but one of the most galling to me is the continuation, after the election of "Invest in my business for 500K, and I'll give you a Visa."  As of the date of this article, the "family" had already raised 50 mil for Trump branded properties.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/in-a-beijing-ballroom-kushner-family-flogs-500000-investor-visa-to-wealthy-chinese/2017/05/06/cf711e53-eb49-4f9a-8dea-3cd836fcf287_story.html?utm_term=.9c30ac75af3b

The poster child of naked corruption.  I know it involves many more scumbags than Trump, but the idea that Trump supporters characterize him as draining the swamp is so fucking weak.

Mueller is also now looking into Trump's dodgy financial dealings (https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-06-21/trump-russia-and-those-shadowy-sater-deals-at-bayrock), specifically possible involvement in Russian money laundering.  I mean, it's not like it's hard to find (http://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/article135187364.html) - Trump bought a Florida ego palace for $40mm, did nothing to it, and one of Putin's best bud's bought it a couple of years later for $100mm.  He never saw it in person, never moved in and it's since been demolished.

People buy property using LLCs for a variety of legitimate reasons; one of the effects of this, though, is to shield the identity of the purchaser from the public.  In 2015, 4% of the Trump Organization's property sales were to LLCs; in 2016...70%.  Maybe people didn't want to be seen doing business with a walking bag of garbage like Trump, or...

Anyhoo, this element of the investigation is very interesting.  Mueller has been adding money-laundering experts and Russian-speaking bankers to his team.  This puts in peril not just Trump, but his whole grifter gang including Ivanka, Jared and Jr.  Meanwhile, Eric's charity is being looked at for skimming money from kids with cancer (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/eric-trump-funneled-cancer-charity-money-businesses-associates/story?id=47878610).

Once anyone starts digging here, they're going to unearth a bottomless pit of shit.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: moriartp on June 22, 2017, 07:50:35 am
Where are you getting your info?  Last I read Ossoff got 48.1%, compared to Clinton's 46.8%.  The Dem challenger got 38.3% last November.  Obama got 37.5% in 2012.  Both sides will spin it how they will...the Republicans will say "see, we still won", Democrats will say "we came damn close to winning a seat that seven months ago was impossible".  Trump will continue to be Trump and America will continue to lose.
To dig this up from yesterday—I referred to the R minus D margin, which was closer in the '16 presidential race than it was in round 2 of the special. Clinton and Trump had a lower combined percentage due to the third party vote share.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 22, 2017, 08:52:26 am
Trump suggests creating law enacted in 1996 (http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/338901-trumps-suggests-creating-law-that-has-been-enacted-since-1996).  The statement was in his teleprompter text - not off the cuff.  This, after claiming credit for building the Panama Canal.  What's next, claiming that signature isn't actually John Hancock's but Donald J. Trump?

Also, at the same campaign rally (seriously, a campaign rally) he was cheered by the drain the swamp crowd for not wanting poor people running the economy; only the rich can do it.  Their minds must be twisted like a pair of Apple earbuds that have been in your pocket for 0.02 seconds.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 22, 2017, 02:37:20 pm
Trump has tweeted today that he doesn't have any tapes of his meetings with Comey.  So, ignoring the reality show bullshit stringing along, how is the original threat - that he might have tapes of those meetings so COmey should be careful what he says - not an effort at witness intimidation?  I.e. obstruction of justice?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on June 22, 2017, 02:52:32 pm
What's a little witness tampering among friends?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on June 22, 2017, 03:33:10 pm
C'mon guys.  He's new at this.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on June 22, 2017, 03:44:25 pm
C'mon guys.  He's new at this.

Well, sure. If you want the leadership of a visionary reformist you're goimg to get a few of these hiccups. I just breathe a sigh of relief knowing he's surrounded himself with top-flight policy experts.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 22, 2017, 03:47:42 pm
Well, sure. If you want the leadership of a visionary reformist you're goimg to get a few of these hiccups. I just breathe a sigh of relief knowing he's surrounded himself with top-flight policy experts.


OK, this does it!  At the weekend...you'll never believe this...I can't believe this...unconscionable doesn't come close to describing it...

He drove his golf cart over a green.

LOCK HIM UP!  LOCK HIM UP!  LOCK HIM UP!
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: BizidyDizidy on June 22, 2017, 03:48:06 pm
There are certain privileges to being POTUS
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: BudGirl on June 22, 2017, 03:48:33 pm

OK, this does it!  At the weekend...you'll never believe this...I can't believe this...unconscionable doesn't come close to describing it...

He drove his golf cart over a green.

LOCK HIM UP!  LOCK HIM UP!  LOCK HIM UP!

screw you, that's creating jobs.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 22, 2017, 04:35:13 pm
screw you, that's creating jobs.

Only for Mexicans.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on June 22, 2017, 04:40:12 pm
Only for Mexicans.

Now, I'm sure that all of the groundskeepers and dishwashers at his golf properties are fully documented US Americans.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 22, 2017, 04:47:28 pm
Now, I'm sure that all of the groundskeepers and dishwashers at his golf properties are fully documented US Americans.

Not so much at Mar-a-Lugey (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/03/20/the-foreign-workers-of-mar-a-lago).
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: BudGirl on June 22, 2017, 04:51:44 pm
Only for Mexicans.

they won't be taking the other better jobs!
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on June 22, 2017, 04:52:23 pm
Not so much at Mar-a-Lugey (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/03/20/the-foreign-workers-of-mar-a-lago).

Nor at the demolition of the structure that pre-dated Trump Tower.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Nate Colbert on June 23, 2017, 04:28:05 pm
Every single lie by the Orange One since being elected. (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.html?smid=tw-nytopinion&smtyp=cur&_r=0)
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on June 23, 2017, 06:16:02 pm
Every single lie by the Orange One since being elected. (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.html?smid=tw-nytopinion&smtyp=cur&_r=0)

Seems like tremendous hubris, doesn't it, to proclaim that they have listed all of them?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 26, 2017, 11:08:20 am
Trump's been tweeting himself into trouble again.  Having consistently denied that the Russian hack of the election never took place - maybe it was some 400lb guy in his parents' basement - Trump tweeted over the weekend that Obama knew about the Russian hack and did nothing, so he should be investigated, not "T".

Let's just drive right past the bit where he's now referring to himself in the third person simply as an initial, and enjoy the fact that he's just confirmed that he believes the Russians hacked the election.  This is a topic about which he, and his administration, have declined to be curious since day one.  As he now believes it to be real, shouldn't he start looking into that so that it doesn't happen again next time?  Maybe the Russians won't want him back in 2020...

In other news, it looks like the Gorsuch vote on SCOTUS is going to get Trump his 90-day travel ban; parts of it, anyway.  Interestingly, he wanted that 90-day travel ban so that they could "figure out what's going on".  He first tried to institute his 90-day ban on January 27; i.e. 150 days ago.  Presuming that the "figuring out of what's going on" has been going on in the meantime regardless of the ban, shouldn't it be irrelevant by now?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: moriartp on June 26, 2017, 11:15:57 am
At least they've made a priority of staffing up the State Department with top people to figure out what's going on.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 26, 2017, 04:35:23 pm
The CBO score on the Senate's tax cut healthcare bill is in, and it's appalling.  They project that it will kick 18 million off health insurance in 2018 and 22 million by 2026 (https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/UWDiWSyYl_dukzvZoLqa6OvmbkU=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/8756001/uninsured__1_.png).  Oh, and just because the bill wasn't "mean" enough, the GOP's death panel healthcare team have added a poison pill that if you drop insurance for 60+ days, you have to wait 6 months before getting back on.

Meanwhile, the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities has calculated (http://www.cbpp.org/research/health/harsh-tradeoff-at-core-of-gop-health-bill-keep-medicaid-expansion-or-cut-taxes-for) that the tax savings for the richest 400 families is the equivalent of the cost of Medicaid for 750,000 people.

This is torches a pitchforks stuff, folks.  I saw a clip of one person speaking at a Senator's town hall where they said that the battle was no longer between left and right, but between top and bottom.  He was optimistic, because he had 300 million people on his side; sadly, I don't think he's correct there.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 27, 2017, 09:21:25 am
At 10pm EDT last night, Spicer dropped a playground threat on Syria who he claims is planning another chemical attack.  News agencies have been trying to source confirmation for this intel but no one outside (and many inside) the White House have no idea what he's talking about.  Usually, such overt threats are at least discussed across the various services because they're the ones in harms way.

So, this means:
(1)  It's bullshit sabre-rattling to distract from any one of a hundred things; or
(b)  It's real, but this administration is too incompetent to coordinate this correctly with those who need to be looped in.

I'm not sure which one is more scary.

Oh, and Jared's lawyered up while one of Trump's Keystone Kop lawyers has been caught driving charitable donations into his own firms coffers (Eric would be proud).  Plus, I got an offer on Facebook this morning to buy a photo of the President that has been signed by the orange one himself.  I may need to watch Idiocracy to get some sense of reality.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 27, 2017, 03:26:48 pm
TrumpCare vote delayed.  Too many vulnerable Republican senators up in 2018 and in fear of their jobs.  God love 'em!

I guess this means the air strike against Syria is postponed too.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 28, 2017, 08:55:12 am
Paul Manafort - Trump's campaign chairman during the crucial period running up to and including the RNC convention - just filed retroactively as a foreign agent (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/former-trump-campaign-chairman-paul-manafort-files-as-foreign-agent-for-ukraine-work/2017/06/27/8322b6ac-5b7b-11e7-9fc6-c7ef4bc58d13_story.html?utm_term=.bb489200d153).  He's the second senior Trumpster to do this; the other being Flynn.  In 2012 - 2014, Manafort worked as an agent of the since-ousted, Putin-puppet, dictator of Ukraine: Viktor Yanukovych.

Seriously, has anything like this ever happened before?  All these people surrounding Trump with ties to Russia that they fail to disclose until they get found out and then they say "oh yeah, well I admit that."  Flynn, Manafort, Sessions, Kushner.

On his security disclosures, first Son-in-Law Jared: failed to declare $100 million he has in accounts in the Caribbean; failed to mention meetings with Russian officials, including those from VEB which isn't a bank but a thinly disguised money vehicle for Putin (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/08/opinion/jared-kushner-russia-veb.html); and just this week we found out that he failed to disclose a loan from the up-to-its-neck-in-Russian-money-laundering Deutsche Bank.  That would be a loan he took out late last year...for $285 meeeelion (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/kushner-firms-285-million-deutsche-bank-loan-came-just-before-election-day/2017/06/25/984f3acc-4f88-11e7-b064-828ba60fbb98_story.html?utm_term=.45e37f717208)...that he had to personally guarantee.  How does that slip your mind? 

Deutsche Bank is the largest (known) lender to the Trump organization too.  Even Trump's bank is balls deep in the Russia scandal (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/08/29/deutsche-banks-10-billion-scandal).

Back to Manafort.  When Yanukovych was deposed, the Ukrainians were very respectful of the property that Viktor left behind as he fled into the protective arms of Putin.  Very sensibly, they preserved all documents they found in his dictator-Neverland (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10656023/In-pictures-Inside-the-palace-Yanukovych-didnt-want-Ukraine-to-see.html?frame=2834866) (are all these guys somehow related to Liberace?).  Part of that cache was a ledger in which meticulous handwritten accounts had been kept of cash payments made to numerous individuals.  Manafort's name was in there multiple times (https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/15/us/politics/paul-manafort-ukraine-donald-trump.html) as having received payments totalling $12.7 million.

This is not normal.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 30, 2017, 08:46:26 am
Smoking gun?  Getting closer to it, at least.

The Murdoch Street Journal reports (https://www.wsj.com/articles/gop-operative-sought-clinton-emails-from-hackers-implied-a-connection-to-flynn-1498770851) that a GOP opposition researcher, reporting to Mike Flynn, worked with Russian hackers to try and recover the deleted Clinton emails.

That link requires an honorarium to Murdoch to read it, but here's an article about the article (http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/06/stop-assuming-trump-is-innocent-of-russian-collusion.html) from NY Magazine.

Quote from: NW Mag
One of the oddities of the investigation into Donald Trump’s relations with Russia is the degree to which he has largely enjoyed a presumption of innocence in the court of public opinion....That line of defense is likely to disappear now that The Wall Street Journal has reported that Peter Smith, a Republican opposition researcher who said he was working for Michael Flynn, colluded with Russian hackers to try to obtain stolen emails from Hillary Clinton.

The Trump team's defense is that Smith didn't work for the campaign and, though Flynn did, he must've been doing this on his own time.  They also asked if we'd like to buy a bridge.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on June 30, 2017, 09:36:40 am
Smoking gun?  Getting closer to it, at least.

The Murdoch Street Journal reports (https://www.wsj.com/articles/gop-operative-sought-clinton-emails-from-hackers-implied-a-connection-to-flynn-1498770851) that a GOP opposition researcher, reporting to Mike Flynn, worked with Russian hackers to try and recover the deleted Clinton emails.

That link requires an honorarium to Murdoch to read it, but here's an article about the article (http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/06/stop-assuming-trump-is-innocent-of-russian-collusion.html) from NY Magazine.

The Trump team's defense is that Smith didn't work for the campaign and, though Flynn did, he must've been doing this on his own time.  They also asked if we'd like to buy a bridge.

It's hard enough to distance the campaign from Flynn, who was obviously an important adviser to Trump (to the point that Trump fired Comey in an effort to protect Flynn), but candidate Trump literally asked for this to happen on camera: (http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/trump-putin-no-relationship-226282)

“I will tell you this, Russia: If you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing,” the Republican nominee said at a news conference in Florida. “I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press.”

Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on June 30, 2017, 09:58:44 am
It's hard enough to distance the campaign from Flynn, who was obviously an important adviser to Trump (to the point that Trump fired Comey in an effort to protect Flynn), but candidate Trump literally asked for this to happen on camera: (http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/trump-putin-no-relationship-226282)

“I will tell you this, Russia: If you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing,” the Republican nominee said at a news conference in Florida. “I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press.”


Rewarded by "our press", or by "our Pres."?

The funny thing is, Trump has a long and storied history of reneging on deals and promises.  If Russia thought he'd actually follow through on what they wanted, they were a little naive.  Right now, he's struggling even to give them back the spy compounds residences that Obama took away as part of the punishment for hacking, let alone relaxing the sanctions over the invasion of Ukraine.

Republicans in Congress appear to be done with him after he proved to be no use to anyone over the healthcare debacle.  He's poisoning the brand and is completely ineffectual as a leader.  It won't be long before they turn on him because his only use will be as a scapegoat.  Same, with Russia; they'll torch him once they're sure he cannot be of use, just to fuck with us (which was the point in the first place).  You know what that means... PeeTape-a-Lago!
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on June 30, 2017, 11:47:41 am

Republicans in Congress appear to be done with him after he proved to be no use to anyone over the healthcare debacle.  He's poisoning the brand and is completely ineffectual as a leader.  It won't be long before they turn on him because his only use will be as a scapegoat. 

The unanimous vote in the appropriations committee yesterday approving Barbara Lee's annual and heretofore perfunctory amendment ending the blank check authorization for the use of military force giving the president near-blanket authority to deploy the military following 9/11 is a pretty strong sign that Republican legislators are at least interested in limiting some of Trump's authority.  I doubt it will ever actually get anywhere, but it's a rare sign of backbone and basic legislative oversight. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Waldo on July 01, 2017, 01:18:14 pm
Republicans in Congress appear to be done with him after he proved to be no use to anyone over the healthcare debacle.  He's poisoning the brand and is completely ineffectual as a leader.  It won't be long before they turn on him because his only use will be as a scapegoat.  Same, with Russia; they'll torch him once they're sure he cannot be of use, just to fuck with us (which was the point in the first place).  You know what that means... PeeTape-a-Lago!

There are plenty of people out there who disapprove of the Republicans in Congress but are giving Trump a pass.  My aunt, for instance, thinks congressional Republicans have betrayed her and are now too liberal to pass a health care bill she'd be proud of, but she's not worried because she's confident that "Trump will fix it".  The cognitive dissonance is strong with them.  (This is the part where I mention my aunt is Type I diabetic and quite literally would not have survived the last 25 years without Medicaid and later Medicare.)

The damage to the brand may already be done.  The GOP has really painted themselves into a corner, and they may be past the point where turning on Trump could benefit them.  From here on out it may very well be a zero-sum game (or worse) with their supporters.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: austro on July 01, 2017, 04:55:29 pm
The damage to the brand may already be done.  The GOP has really painted themselves into a corner, and they may be past the point where turning on Trump could benefit them.  From here on out it may very well be a zero-sum game (or worse) with their supporters.

No way. None of those folks think that *their* guy sucks. It's all of the *other* Congress-critters who suck. Consequently, all of those guys will keep coming back.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 05, 2017, 08:33:28 am
Smoking gun?  Getting closer to it, at least.

The Murdoch Street Journal reports (https://www.wsj.com/articles/gop-operative-sought-clinton-emails-from-hackers-implied-a-connection-to-flynn-1498770851) that a GOP opposition researcher, reporting to Mike Flynn, worked with Russian hackers to try and recover the deleted Clinton emails.

That link requires an honorarium to Murdoch to read it, but here's an article about the article (http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/06/stop-assuming-trump-is-innocent-of-russian-collusion.html) from NY Magazine.

The Trump team's defense is that Smith didn't work for the campaign and, though Flynn did, he must've been doing this on his own time.  They also asked if we'd like to buy a bridge.

The Washington Post picked up this ball and ran with it.  In an article (behind a pay-wall) (https://www.wsj.com/articles/gop-activist-who-sought-clinton-emails-cited-trump-campaign-officials-1498872923), the Post reports that recently deceased Republican operative Peter Smith - who was working with Russian hackers to resurrect the 30,000 deleted Clinton emails - had another string to his bow.  He had a file in which he detailed contacts with representatives of the Trump Campaign; the file was clandestinely named "Trump Campaign".

The Trump Campaign staffers appearing in the file include Steve Bannon, Kellyanne Conway, Sam Clovis (a policy adviser to the Trump campaign and now a senior adviser at the Agriculture Department) and, of course, retired Lt. Gen. Mike Flynn.  So now we have a connection from Russian hackers, through Peter Smith, right up to the people sitting right next to Trump...sometimes with their feet on the furniture.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: BudGirl on July 05, 2017, 09:13:53 am
Declaration of Independence, NPR, and Twitter (https://www.yahoo.com/news/npr-tweeted-declaration-independence-trump-065239684.html)
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 05, 2017, 10:17:23 am
Declaration of Independence, NPR, and Twitter (https://www.yahoo.com/news/npr-tweeted-declaration-independence-trump-065239684.html)

That's awesome...literally.  I am in awe of these snowflake reactionaries and their ability to hold multiple competing beliefs in their heads at the same time.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on July 05, 2017, 10:29:53 am
That's awesome...literally.  I am in awe of these snowflake reactionaries and their ability to hold multiple competing beliefs in their heads at the same time.

When the Declaration of Independence reads like a direct commentary on your guy, perhaps it's time to re-examine your guy. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 06, 2017, 08:29:44 am
Trump is in Poland - another country with a right-wing nationalist government installed, in part, with the help of Russian interference in an election.  Apparently, he feels at home because he thought it appropriate - in a foreign venue - to deny the Russian hacking of our election, shit all over the US intelligence agencies for getting this - and WMDs in Iraq - wrong.  At the same time, he criticized Obama for not doing anything about the election hacking.

Ignoring the fact that the mouth-breathing caucus of the Republican Party owes the Dixie Chicks a giant apology (once they're done with lynching NPR for tweeting the Declaration of Independence on July 4th)...WTF?

I actually agree that Obama deserves criticism for not outing the Russian hacking before the election.  He kept quiet because (a) he didn't want to appear partisan; and (2) because Mitch McTurtle threatened to scream bloody murder if Obama whispered a word about it.  I'm sure everyone was of the notion that Clinton would win and so there'd be no harm/foul, but now we're here.  President Walkabout (https://youtu.be/nAjE1e8FG18) (seriously, it's getting bad (https://youtu.be/5fumChF0Skg), remember when he couldn't find Rudy Giuliani who was sitting directly across the table from him (https://youtu.be/2lpui1fTayI)?) is defending Russia against our intel services and former President, while contradicting himself over that very subject.  How does nobody see this?  I feel like I've taken crazy pills!
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on July 06, 2017, 08:46:43 am
How does nobody see this?  I feel like I've taken crazy pills!

Sometimes I feel like I'm in an episode of The Munsters, and I'm Marilyn, the normal one.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: BudGirl on July 06, 2017, 08:58:56 am
How does nobody see this?  I feel like I've taken crazy pills!

Seriously, people see it but many think the "white man" has been put at a disadvantage because people tried to level the playing field.  You may be surprised at how many white males will say how hard it is to get a job, because of companies trying to diversify.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on July 06, 2017, 09:01:04 am
It is maddening.  The Russians weren't involved and Obama is a pussy for not addressing the Russian involvement.  Queue the raucous applause from his supporters.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on July 06, 2017, 09:04:00 am
Seriously, people see it but many think the "white man" has been put at a disadvantage because people tried to level the playing field.  You may be surprised at how many white males will say how hard it is to get a job, because of companies trying to diversify.

I've seen this in a number of people.  Most are friends, and gigantic snowflakes.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Andyzipp on July 06, 2017, 09:06:03 am
Sometimes I feel like I'm in an episode of The Munsters, and I'm Marilyn, the normal one.

When all of our political infrastructure is currently predicated on catering to the fringes of their particular constituencies the 90% of us in the middle are going to feel disenfranchised and bewildered.  Also, you'd look hot in a Pat Priest blonde wig and a baby-doll dress.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: BudGirl on July 06, 2017, 09:06:57 am
When all of our political infrastructure is currently predicated on catering to the fringes of their particular constituencies the 90% of us in the middle are going to feel disenfranchised and bewildered.  Also, you'd look hot in a Pat Priest blonde wig and a baby-doll dress.

Don't do that.  I look good in baby-doll dresses and you are ruining them.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Andyzipp on July 06, 2017, 09:09:20 am
Don't do that.  I look good in baby-doll dresses and you are ruining them.

Matt, like all catchers, have fantastic calves.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on July 06, 2017, 09:18:38 am
Matt, like all catchers, have fantastic calves.

I once won a "best legs" contest in college. 

Now on behalf of everyone...something no one would ever thought they'd hear...can we please get back to the political rants.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on July 06, 2017, 09:52:26 am
When all of our political infrastructure is currently predicated on catering to the fringes of their particular constituencies the 90% of us in the middle are going to feel disenfranchised and bewildered.

I've come to the conclusion that if I could change one thing in politics, it would be requiring all states to draw district lines (for state and national legislative seats) according to a computer program that sets equal population with the minimum length of boundary lines.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 06, 2017, 09:54:29 am
Seriously, people see it but many think the "white man" has been put at a disadvantage because people tried to level the playing field.  You may be surprised at how many white males will say how hard it is to get a job, because of companies trying to diversify.

Mrs Limey belongs to a couple of women's business groups (currently President of NAWBO in Houston), and feels oddly guilty about supporting other women's businesses over businesses in general.  I explain to her every time that white men have been propping up each other in the workplace for centuries, specifically to the exclusion of women and minorities, so a little payback is due.  She used to work in oil & gas where she was given the biggest role in her department, and a corner office in which to do it, but was denied the title and pay rise that went with the job.  She had to report to a fleet of useless "managers"; white men all.

Here's Louis CK's classic take on white male privilege (very NSFW (https://youtu.be/1cuQTGKD01M)).
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 06, 2017, 10:13:13 am
I've seen this in a number of people.  Most are friends, and gigantic snowflakes.

The right-wing noise machine is 99% projection.

Just think about the bleating and carping about how "Obamacare" was forced through in the dead of night...after 14 months of debate; numerous, raucous town halls; weeks of hearings; hundreds of amendments considered from Republicans (many of which were taken up); and passing the 60-vote threshold in the Senate.  Those same complainants just forced through the House their "please don't call it 'Trumpcare'" bill, without any debate, any hearings or even waiting for the CBO score.  The Senate effort never came up for a vote, but it bypassed the committee process, would've been brought to vote without debate/hearings/amendments and was designed to be passed by only 50 votes.  After that, the plan was to skip the reconciliation process and have the House vote on the Senate bill as is, to be signed into law in a flourish by Trump.

And that's how it is on something serious.  There's also Newton's Trump's First Law which states that "for every tweet, there is an equal and opposite tweet sometime in the past".  Many are presciently specific (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-tweets_us_5923522ee4b03b485cb42379).

OK.  100% projection.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on July 06, 2017, 10:14:51 am
I've come to the conclusion that if I could change one thing in politics, it would be requiring all states to draw district lines (for state and national legislative seats) according to a computer program that sets equal population with the minimum length of boundary lines.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I've seen some pretty persuasive evidence that this action wouldn't move the needle very much owing to the "self-sorting" Americans have been doing over the past couple decades. Thus the sociocultural split between, as the magnificent essayist and cartoonist Tim Kreider put it, the "Got-outs" vs. the "Stayed put."

Gerrymandering for ideological parity would require shapes just as fucked up as they are now. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 06, 2017, 10:28:44 am
I've come to the conclusion that if I could change one thing in politics, it would be requiring all states to draw district lines (for state and national legislative seats) according to a computer program that sets equal population with the minimum length of boundary lines.

Gerrymandering is the Kevin Bacon of politics: you can trace every problem back to it within 6 moves...usually only 1.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 06, 2017, 10:38:09 am
I've seen some pretty persuasive evidence that this action wouldn't move the needle very much owing to the "self-sorting" Americans have been doing over the past couple decades. Thus the sociocultural split between, as the magnificent essayist and cartoonist Tim Kreider put it, the "Got-outs" vs. the "Stayed put."

Gerrymandering for ideological parity would require shapes just as fucked up as they are now.

It's not about ideological anything; it's about forming districts that make geographical sense (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/55/How_to_Steal_an_Election_-_Gerrymandering.svg/300px-How_to_Steal_an_Election_-_Gerrymandering.svg.png), and letting the ideology fall where it may.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on July 06, 2017, 10:51:55 am
I've seen some pretty persuasive evidence that this action wouldn't move the needle very much owing to the "self-sorting" Americans have been doing over the past couple decades. Thus the sociocultural split between, as the magnificent essayist and cartoonist Tim Kreider put it, the "Got-outs" vs. the "Stayed put."

Gerrymandering for ideological parity would require shapes just as fucked up as they are now.

I haven't seen any studies on this (I'll look, and if you have links to anything feel free to share), but I have a hard time believing that what MM proposes via the shortest possible lines to achieve populational balance or literally just lines drawn at random would not be a significant improvement over the current Republican construction which is clearly meant to disenfranchise as many urban voters as possible.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on July 06, 2017, 10:52:25 am
It's not about ideological anything; it's about forming districts that make geographical sense (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/55/How_to_Steal_an_Election_-_Gerrymandering.svg/300px-How_to_Steal_an_Election_-_Gerrymandering.svg.png), and letting the ideology fall where it may.

Except that blues congregate in cities, and reds sprawl. "[L]etting the ideology fall where it may" is insufficient to the task of making legislatures more representative if ideology falls unevenly.

Unless--I see this now--as per MusicMan's suggestion, an urban center contained, say, five districts to the one rural district of equal population. Yes, that does make sense. I'm for it. Where do I sign?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 06, 2017, 11:01:37 am
Except that blues congregate in cities, and reds sprawl. "[L]etting the ideology fall where it may" is insufficient to the task of making legislatures more representative if ideology falls unevenly.

Unless--I see this now--as per MusicMan's suggestion, an urban center contained, say, five districts to the one rural district of equal population. Yes, that does make sense. I'm for it. Where do I sign?

Blue cities are surrounded by red suburbs; rural districts with their sparse populations really don't tilt the scale.  Montana has two Senators but a single House seat.  It's when gerrymandering dilutes blue voters by creating blue vote "ghettos" while spreading the red votes around that we end up with what we have.

I live in Montrose, and my Congressman is Ted Fucking Poe.  Here's a map of his district (http://poe.house.gov/index.cfm?a=Files.Serve&File_id=B19FEE2F-68A0-4FE4-8160-C46DFD4AD159).  It's the perfect example of taking a concentrated slice of blue votes and burying them in a wraparound of suburban red votes.  I do not see how any non-partisan redistricting would create something as fucked up as this.  I'm not sure Poe has even come inside the loop in a decade - he can just ignore all his urban constituents because we carry no weight.  Representative democracy?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on July 06, 2017, 11:25:45 am
Unless--I see this now--as per MusicMan's suggestion, an urban center contained, say, five districts to the one rural district of equal population. Yes, that does make sense. I'm for it. Where do I sign?

It would have to be based on an equal population per district.  People vote and are represented by government in a democracy, not acreage.

Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on July 06, 2017, 11:32:18 am
Yes, I understood that--just didn't word it well. Each of the five urban districts (in my example) would be equal in population to the one rural.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Andyzipp on July 06, 2017, 11:33:03 am
Blue cities are surrounded by red suburbs; rural districts with their sparse populations really don't tilt the scale.  Montana has two Senators but a single House seat.  It's when gerrymandering dilutes blue voters by creating blue vote "ghettos" while spreading the red votes around that we end up with what we have.

I live in Montrose, and my Congressman is Ted Fucking Poe.  Here's a map of his district (http://poe.house.gov/index.cfm?a=Files.Serve&File_id=B19FEE2F-68A0-4FE4-8160-C46DFD4AD159).  It's the perfect example of taking a concentrated slice of blue votes and burying them in a wraparound of suburban red votes.  I do not see how any non-partisan redistricting would create something as fucked up as this.  I'm not sure Poe has even come inside the loop in a decade - he can just ignore all his urban constituents because we carry no weight.  Representative democracy?

SJL doesn't want you messing with this.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 06, 2017, 11:40:44 am
Yes, I understood that--just didn't word it well. Each of the five urban districts (in my example) would be equal in population to the one rural.

Here's what happened in Minnesota (https://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/12/8/1604093/-Minnesota-s-2016-elections-show-both-the-promise-and-limits-of-nonpartisan-redistricting-reform), when the courts stepped in to resolve an argument that partisan politicians couldn't.  They redrew the districts purely based on geography, to create 8 districts of equal population.

Interestingly, Clinton carried the state by 1.5%, but Republicans took 5 of the 8 Congressional seats.  However, the underlying benefit is that most of the races in the state were competitive, meaning that more moderate candidates (of either stripe) will be the product of these elections.  This is far more preferable - and representative - than having ever-more partisan and ideologically pure candidates who are more endangered by a primary challenge from their outside than they are by their opposite number.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on July 06, 2017, 11:47:39 am
Blue cities are surrounded by red suburbs; rural districts with their sparse populations really don't tilt the scale.  Montana has two Senators but a single House seat.  It's when gerrymandering dilutes blue voters by creating blue vote "ghettos" while spreading the red votes around that we end up with what we have.

I live in Montrose, and my Congressman is Ted Fucking Poe.  Here's a map of his district (http://poe.house.gov/index.cfm?a=Files.Serve&File_id=B19FEE2F-68A0-4FE4-8160-C46DFD4AD159).  It's the perfect example of taking a concentrated slice of blue votes and burying them in a wraparound of suburban red votes.  I do not see how any non-partisan redistricting would create something as fucked up as this.  I'm not sure Poe has even come inside the loop in a decade - he can just ignore all his urban constituents because we carry no weight.  Representative democracy?

Same situation here. The bulk of Asheville's population (among the bluest in all the land) is represented by Patrick McHenry. The map looks a little like a cartoon dog farting, with our town in the choice location you'd expect from such an arrangement (https://mchenry.house.gov/district/map.htm). Asheville comprises the single largest population center in his district, but we never see him. He doesn't even have an office here.

Like the man said: ratfucked.

I'm cautiously optimistic that the case the Supremes are taking up next year will improve things a bit.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 06, 2017, 11:51:36 am
Same situation here. The bulk of Asheville's population (among the bluest in all the land) is represented by Patrick McHenry. The map looks a little like a cartoon dog farting, with our town in the choice location you'd expect from such an arrangement (https://mchenry.house.gov/district/map.htm). Asheville comprises the single largest population center in his district, but we never see him. He doesn't even have an office here.

Like the man said: ratfucked.

I'm cautiously optimistic that the case the Supremes are taking up next year will improve things a bit.

I'd say "don't hold your breath" but, given your location, that might be advisable.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on July 06, 2017, 12:00:51 pm
In non-gerrymandering news, Rick Perry announced at a coal plant that we need to increase the coal supply, because that creates increased demand.

This man is so stupid that I won't even hold A&M responsible for him.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on July 06, 2017, 12:13:59 pm
I'm cautiously optimistic that the case the Supremes are taking up next year will improve things a bit.

AHHHHH HAHAHAHAHA HAAAA AHHHHH HAHAHAHA HAHA.

HA. ha.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on July 06, 2017, 12:29:38 pm
AHHHHH HAHAHAHAHA HAAAA AHHHHH HAHAHAHA HAHA.

HA. ha.

If it came down to a neat divide, there's a non-zero chance that the new metric for wasted votes could sway Kennedy.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Waldo on July 06, 2017, 12:34:06 pm
I once won a "best legs" contest in college. 

I actually believe you. (http://orangewhoopass.com/graphics/softball04/HudsonHawk_Dropping_Trou.jpg)
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: moriartp on July 06, 2017, 12:50:45 pm
If it came down to a neat divide, there's a non-zero chance that the new metric for wasted votes could sway Kennedy.
I think the absolute best case scenario is Kennedy kicks the can down the road again. But I'm not all that optimistic.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on July 06, 2017, 01:23:40 pm
I actually believe you. (http://orangewhoopass.com/graphics/softball04/HudsonHawk_Dropping_Trou.jpg)

Pantsed.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 06, 2017, 01:59:44 pm
I think the absolute best case scenario is Kennedy kicks the can down the road again. But I'm not all that optimistic.

If Kennedy and/or Ginsberg can't hang on, then Trump gets to set the political agenda for a generation.  Still, there were emails...
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 07, 2017, 11:07:36 am
In non-gerrymandering news, Rick Perry announced at a coal plant that we need to increase the coal supply, because that creates increased demand.

This man is so stupid that I won't even hold A&M responsible for him.


He once said that a broken clock is right once a day...which is one time more than Perry.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Nate Colbert on July 07, 2017, 12:28:54 pm
Jess Dweck  @TheDweck 32m ago
I can't believe the President of the United States met for over two hours with Donald Trump.
Title: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on July 07, 2017, 01:49:22 pm
@ZeddRebel:

Putin insisted on watching the tape again with director's commentary on.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 07, 2017, 02:52:10 pm
Trump just zoned out in public again.  He really is just a tired old man.  That's the wander off after coming down from AF1, the standing around on stage after his speech in Poland and today, he was asleep as all the leaders were asked to turn for a photo and he was the only one not aware of the move.  Teresa May had to poke him back into reality.

Remember when Hillary was too sick to be President and Jeb had low energy?  Projection.  See also, Little Marco and Lyin' Ted.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on July 07, 2017, 05:21:16 pm
My guy Lloyd Dogget's current map (http://www.texasobserver.org/wp-content/legacy/images/stories/Redistricting_20120229_interimCD35map.jpg) is pretty fucked up but not as bad as his previous district map (http://www.wrhammons.com/TX25_109.gif).
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 10, 2017, 08:37:09 am
So Uday Butthead Don Jr. met with a Russian attorney with ties to the Kremlin to discuss Clinton's deleted emails.  This meeting also included Trump's campaign chairman and self-designated foreign agent Paul Manafort, along with Jared "I do everything" Kushner.  Ignoring the fact that this is yet another meeting that Kushner should have disclosed but failed to do so, Don Sr. has denied any knowledge of the meeting or of what was discussed.

By complete coincidence, Trump's first tweet after this meeting occurred referenced 33,000 deleted Clinton emails.  Also completely coincidentally, it was the first time Trump had ever mentioned the subject.  I'm sure that there's no "here" here, because Trump doesn't involve his family in his sacred duties of being the President (https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/7dc616fd2314623d083ca715900cf3a77ae9ee2c/142_512_2884_1731/master/2884.jpg?w=300&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=6cfc088eca7c6781651e7dff02894682).
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on July 10, 2017, 09:03:43 am
He gave up on the adoption story pretty quickly, and now is claiming that the Russian lady said that the Russians were financing the DNC (and that the Trump campaign did not find this interesting).  These guys are comically incompetent.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 10, 2017, 09:44:31 am
He gave up on the adoption story pretty quickly, and now is claiming that the Russian lady said that the Russians were financing the DNC (and that the Trump campaign did not find this interesting).  These guys are comically incompetent.

Don Jr.'s denials basically confirmed the substance of the NYT story.  Also, because Manafort was there, the meeting may actually have been illegal under campaign laws; you can't solicit help from foreigners.

Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on July 10, 2017, 09:53:01 am
Also, because Manafort was there, the meeting may actually have been illegal under campaign laws; you can't solicit help from foreigners.

Is that true?  What rule prohibits assistance from foreigners?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 10, 2017, 11:55:19 am
Is that true?  What rule prohibits assistance from foreigners?

Here ya go (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/11/110.20), in all its legalese glory for you.

Quote
(b)  A foreign national shall not, directly or indirectly, make a contribution or a donation of money or other thing of value, or expressly or impliedly promise to make a contribution or a donation, in connection with any Federal, State, or local election.
...

(g)  No person shall knowingly solicit, accept, or receive from a foreign national any contribution or donation prohibited by paragraphs (b) through (d) of this section.


I presume that the doubt around this is whether intel on Clinton counts as a "thing of value".  If it does then it's pretty clear that Trump Jr. was soliciting a thing of value from someone known to him to be a foreign national.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on July 10, 2017, 12:09:39 pm
It is hopefully addressed by other statutes, but if one payed a foreign national for dirt on Clinton, is it no longer a contribution (which is apparently undefined) or a donation? 

 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 10, 2017, 01:58:58 pm
It is hopefully addressed by other statutes, but if one payed a foreign national for dirt on Clinton, is it no longer a contribution (which is apparently undefined) or a donation?

The statute I linked seems to be clear that you can't ask for or be given stuff for free by foreigners.  I'm assuming that buying stuff is ok, because how would you differentiate buying opposition research from, say, paper clips or laptops?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 11, 2017, 08:33:20 am
Aaaaand done.  The NYT reported last night (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/10/us/politics/donald-trump-jr-russia-email-candidacy.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=span-ab-top-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news) that Trump Jr. had been told in an email - before taking the meeting with the Russian attorney offering dirt on Clinton - that the dirt was the product of a Russian government hacking operation.  And he still went.  And he took his brother-in-law and Trump campaign manager with him.

Quote from: NY Times
Before arranging a meeting with a Kremlin-connected Russian lawyer he believed would offer him compromising information about Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump Jr. was informed in an email that the material was part of a Russian government effort to aid his father’s candidacy, according to three people with knowledge of the email.

That, right there, is a smoking gun.

Let's not forget that the Trump campaign has denied and denied and denied, in the press, in security disclosures and under oath, that any meetings took place between the campaign and Russian officials.  That still-ongoing lie has been systematically torn apart over time, and as each layer of this stinking onion is peeled back, they admit to just that, and deny anything further.  Until the next layer is peeled back, and then they admit to just that.  Rinse.  Repeat.

Trump Jr., Kushner and Manafort are three of the highest ranking members of the Trump campaign.  As of yesterday, they had corroborated not only that this meeting took place, but also that it was taken with the expectation of being given some dirt on their general election opponent.  But now the Times has layered on the fact that they knew going in to that meeting that the dirt was the work product of a foreign government's hack attack.  That puts a whole nother sinister spin on it entirely.  They heard that the Russian government has been hacking into - perhaps - Secretary of State Clinton's infamous private email server, and their reaction was to immediately take a meeting to see if they could get their hands on it.

Today's spin from TrumpWorld is "where's the crime?"  Well, there's the violation of the election statute prohibiting receiving or soliciting "things of value" from foreign nationals - which they have already copped to by confirming they took the meeting specifically to get dirt on Clinton.  But the fact that they knew in advance that it was the Russian government dangling the carrots, I think this rises to the level of a criminal conspiracy.  All the hacking was illegal, and the Trumps got involved after the fact.  No wonder Mueller has added experts in RICO prosecutions to his team, because that is what this is now - a criminal enterprise.

Ranking Member Schiff added some chronological context to this last night.  The Russian hacks were mostly complete prior to the June meeting in question.  After the June meeting:
(1)  Trump tweets - for the first time - about the 33,000 deleted emails;
(b)  Trump openly calls for Russia to find and release those emails at a campaign rally;
(iii)  The Trump campaign demands (and gets) only one change to the GOP platform - the removal of language supporting sanctions against Russia over their invasion of Ukraine; and
(4)  Russia starts drip-feeding damaging information about Hillary Clinton.

I mean, it's almost as if they planned it or something.

Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 11, 2017, 08:40:09 am
As of last night, Trump Jr. lawyered-up (http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/senate-intel-committee-wants-talk-donald-trump-jr-source-says-n781381).
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on July 11, 2017, 09:03:28 am
People wishing to get Trump ousted, and there are many on both sides of the aisle, should not get caught up in whether each specific act is illegal or whether the whole enterprise is illegal.  Impeachment is political, not legal.  Therefore, IMO, they should focus on the idea that he was in cahoots with an enemy and most importantly, is now compromised by it.  That might be persuasive to some Republicanss that will be needed for impeachment.  Basically, they won't have to agree that Trump is a crook, they just have to agree that his presence as commander in chief is too risky for the nation.

Additionally, the NYT article on how Kushner and Bannon were planning, behinds the scenes, to use a Blackwater mercenary force for Afghanistan will further support this growing concern among Republicans.  K and B approached the generals last weekend with the idea, and it was promptly shot down and must have raised a few "What the fuck are these guys doing" questions.

So, while criminal prosecutions may or may not be in the Trump circle's future, the argument for his ouster should be placed elsewhere.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 11, 2017, 09:29:34 am
So, while criminal prosecutions may or may not be in the Trump circle's future, the argument for his ouster should be placed elsewhere.

Absolutely.  However, I have no faith at this point that a Republican-lead Congress will do anything other than stall and stammer on this.  Then, if ousted in 2018, they will scream 'PARTISANSHIP!" about any efforts to investigate or impeach anyone in the Trump administration.  And, even then, Trump can pre-pardon anyone he wants and President Pence can pre-pardon citizen Trump from any prosecutions to which he would then be open.

But, regarding 2018, let's not overlook the fact that we know that the Russians went after specific districts in specific states to try and derail voting in pivotal Democratic-leaning districts to suppress Clinton votes.  I think the combined margin of victory in the three crucial states of MI, PA, WI was about 70,000 so, with the electoral college still in place, it's not like they have to do much to tip the balance.  Of course, Trump's budget defunds entirely the federal department tasked with overseeing anti-hacking efforts in elections.  Trump's administration is doing nothing at all about discovering how the hacking was done and ensuring it won't happen in the future, and we now know that they're ok with colluding with Russians to help them win elections.  If 2018 is a clean election, I'll eat my hat.

So, something has to give here.  I just do not see how it gets done using the existing checks and balances.  Congress will protect this President, who in turn will make sure - by hook or by crook - that they keep their majority in the next mid-terms.  The Supreme Court will split 5/4 in favor of the administration in most cases, and have a insurmountable Republican-bias for decades if Kennedy and/or Ginsberg steps down.  Only the 4th estate is working to shin a light on this rock, but its reputation has being damaged by its own greed for ratings and by elected officials all happy to scream "Fake News!" at any damaging, factual, reports.

Is this how democracy dies?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on July 11, 2017, 10:04:03 am
Is this how democracy dies?

I, for one, welcome our incompetent kleptocrat overlords.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 11, 2017, 10:16:17 am
I, for one, welcome our incompetent kleptocrat overlords.

It's the blatant incompetency that's perhaps the most galling.  These are truly dumb people, and they're stealing our democracy in plain sight while brazenly enriching themselves in the process.

Putin is believed to be the richest person in the world, by no small margin.  Now, he is well on his way to adding the United States to his stable of riches; Trump being Loki to his Thanos.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on July 11, 2017, 10:17:23 am
I... I just can't even put this into words. Donald Trump, Jr. posted the emails in question to Twitter.

https://twitter.com/DonaldJTrumpJr/status/884789839522140166/photo/1

Let's just point out the most relevant sentence:

Quote
This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 11, 2017, 10:26:00 am
How dumb are they?  Trump Jr. just released what he claims to be the entire email exchange setting up the meeting with the Russian attorney.  Not only does it confirm the accuracy of the Times' reporting, It reads like a smoking machine gun (https://twitter.com/DonaldJTrumpJr/status/884789418455953413/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rawstory.com%2F2017%2F07%2Fdon-jr-just-released-the-full-russia-emails-and-they-contain-a-potential-smoking-gun-read-them-here%2F).

I wonder who has jurisdiction here?  It happened in New York, so maybe the US Attorney for the Southern District... oh (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/03/11/new-york-us-attorney-refusing-step-down/99055128/).
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on July 11, 2017, 10:32:02 am
All this makes me highly suspicious of a setup.  The brazen stupidity of Trump Jr. (even for him) and the fact that five administrative folks apparently ratted him out when they knew it would be huge.  Really, there are five people who both knew about this and are willing to throw Trump's son under the bus?

The setup might be Trump Jr. as the fall guy, trying to make it appear that he was the rogue guy on the inner circle.  Later, daddy will pardon him while saying that we just shouldn't be concerned about this any more.  You know, no need to relitigate this in Tillerson speak.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 11, 2017, 10:39:01 am
All this makes me highly suspicious of a setup.  The brazen stupidity of Trump Jr. (even for him) and the fact that five administrative folks apparently ratted him out when they knew it would be huge.  Really, there are five people who both knew about this and are willing to throw Trump's son under the bus?

The setup might be Trump Jr. as the fall guy, trying to make it appear that he was the rogue guy on the inner circle.  Later, daddy will pardon him while saying that we just shouldn't be concerned about this any more.  You know, no need to relitigate this in Tillerson speak.


This would be the smart thing to do, knowing that the noose was tightening anyway.  It's a tried and trusted strategy - to self-leak damning evidence ahead of a more damning reveal - so as to lessen the impact of the full story.  For example, now, if anyone goes after Trump or his family / administration about Russia, they can say that they've come clean and everyone knows what it is.  It's a very effective smokescreen against all future revelations on this subject.

Or...Don Jr. could just be that fucking dumb.

Or both.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on July 11, 2017, 10:41:08 am
Don Jr. makes Fredo look like Michael.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 11, 2017, 10:46:54 am
Don Jr. makes Fredo look like Michael.

And Manafort is no Tom Hagen.

Meanwhile, Kushner risked his family's entire, considerable, wealth, on a single piece of real estate...in 2007.  This, after buying a newspaper in 2006.  I am thinking about offering him a bet on last night's HR Derby; he might just take it.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Duke on July 11, 2017, 10:47:15 am
Don Jr. makes Fredo look like Michael.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 11, 2017, 10:55:08 am
Jr. forwarded the entire email string to Manafort and Kushner, including the attribution that they were meeting a "Russian government attorney".  So that's them fucked too, then.  Gone is any plausible deniability that they went into the meeting in ignorance of the subject matter to be discussed.

Also, just for what it's worth, this is yet another meeting with Russians that Kushner failed to disclose.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 11, 2017, 11:14:03 am
Seeing commentary that Don Jr. released the email thread because the Times had it and said it was going to publish.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on July 11, 2017, 12:35:57 pm
Putin is believed to be the richest person in the world, by no small margin.  Now, he is well on his way to adding the United States to his stable of riches; Trump being Loki to his Thanos.

Not too long ago I got an annoying, borderline offensive lowball offer on an apartment I'm selling in Colombia. The story that the agent told me about the buyer didn't make any sense to me and although on one hand it doesn't really matter who the buyer is I don't suppose, I'm an inquisitive sort of fellow. I did a little poking around and came to the conclusion that the actual buyer was Mariya Putin, Vladimir's elder daughter. Her husband/boyfriend of many years, a Dutch guy, was the person actually on the ground in Colombia at the time.

Now, why a family with untold billions of dollars is concerning itself shaving $50k or whatever it was off some jerky apartment in Medellin rather than negotiating to purchase the port of Cartagena, well, I have no idea. I happened to talk to the agent the other day and learned that they never did buy anything.

Who's leaking all of this recent stuff? Initially I assumed it was Kushner but I've had a chance to rethink that and now I'm not so sure.

The only thing that is truly surprising to me in all this is that DJ apparently knows how to use email. I assumed he'd honor the grand Trump tradition of scribbling on a printed copy of a message with a colored marker and having that document faxed back to the sender. It's good to see him blaze new trails.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 11, 2017, 01:04:40 pm
Not too long ago I got an annoying, borderline offensive lowball offer on an apartment I'm selling in Colombia. The story that the agent told me about the buyer didn't make any sense to me and although on one hand it doesn't really matter who the buyer is I don't suppose, I'm an inquisitive sort of fellow. I did a little poking around and came to the conclusion that the actual buyer was Mariya Putin, Vladimir's elder daughter. Her husband/boyfriend of many years, a Dutch guy, was the person actually on the ground in Colombia at the time.

Now, why a family with untold billions of dollars is concerning itself shaving $50k or whatever it was off some jerky apartment in Medellin rather than negotiating to purchase the port of Cartagena, well, I have no idea. I happened to talk to the agent the other day and learned that they never did buy anything.

The Russian oligarchs use property to stash wealth and/or launder money.  Maybe they found a better vehicle elsewhere.


Who's leaking all of this recent stuff? Initially I assumed it was Kushner but I've had a chance to rethink that and now I'm not so sure.

I have a theory (that is mine).  Trump, other than taking a wrecking ball to the U.S' position as a world leader, has delivered almost nothing of value to the Russians.  He hasn't lifted a single sanction and, with the scrutiny on him at an excruciating level, he's very unlikely to get anything done in the short term.  Now, from my extensive experience of the mob - from movies and TV - they really don't care that it's going to fuck you over to do their bidding.  So, maybe this whole Don Jr. mess is a shot across Sr's bows.


The only thing that is truly surprising to me in all this is that DJ apparently knows how to use email. I assumed he'd honor the grand Trump tradition of scribbling on a printed copy of a message with a colored marker and having that document faxed back to the sender. It's good to see him blaze new trails.

I found it amusing that, in 2017, someone is still using the ">" to designate forwarded text.  Anyway, Trump Sr. will let you have his ancient Android phone when you can pry it out of his tiny, dead hands.  It's safe to assume that he's, at best, no more tech savvy than the level of competence demonstrated by Jr in this published exchange.  So, there's no way the Russians don't have hard copy evidence of Sr's complicity and/or collusion.

First, Jr. gets whacked (https://youtu.be/sJU2cz9ytPQ).  Who's next, Jared?  Then Ivanka? That would be the progression of affection in the Trump family.  When that fails...it's peepee time.  The Russians will burn down the whole family and its administration by the time this is over.

Meanwhile, Vice-President Pence's on the record comment about all this is that he wasn't involved because it was before he joined the campaign.  That's damning with no praise whatsoever.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 11, 2017, 01:13:52 pm
One other tidbit:  Trump Sr. was in the building the day of the meeting.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 11, 2017, 01:18:19 pm
Think about this:  he fired Comey because "this whole Russia thing, with Trump-Russia, is fake news."  It was Kushner who strongly pushed for Trump to fire Comey.  Kushner was on the emails and in the meeting when Russia's assistance to the Trump campaign was raised.  So Kushner knew it wasn't fake; which means he either lied to his boss/father-in-law or his boss/father-in-law knew it was real and the "fake news" is (gasp) an attempt at laying down smoke.

Either way, how is Kushner still allowed with 100 yards of the White House or a Chuckie Cheese?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on July 11, 2017, 01:22:14 pm
> One other tidbit:  Trump Sr. was in the building the day of the meeting.

The following day saw his first tweet regarding the Clinton email server.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 11, 2017, 01:25:14 pm
> One other tidbit:  Trump Sr. was in the building the day of the meeting.

The following day saw his first tweet regarding the Clinton email server.

ISWYDT

Exactly.  The timeline of events subsequent to this meeting - the initiation of the tweets and stumping about Clinton's emails; the single, Russia-friendly change to the GOP platform; and the beginning of the drip feed of damaging information about Team Clinton from Russia - is incredibly damning.  In the emails we've seen, Trump Jr. expresses glee at the potential for dirt on Clinton and that he would love it if it came out, especially later in the summer - which it did.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on July 11, 2017, 02:10:07 pm
Exactly.  The timeline of events subsequent to this meeting - the initiation of the tweets and stumping about Clinton's emails; the single, Russia-friendly change to the GOP platform; and the beginning of the drip feed of damaging information about Team Clinton from Russia - is incredibly damning.  In the emails we've seen, Trump Jr. expresses glee at the potential for dirt on Clinton and that he would love it if it came out, especially later in the summer - which it did.

Also, the FBI's investigation into these fuckwits began in June of 2016 or July at the latest, and I sort of doubt that the timing is coincidental. When a mobbed up Russian lawyer who's previously had her visa revoked swans into Trump Tower to meet directly with high level campaign staff and Trump family members to discuss potentially damning information on Clinton that the Russian government may wish to share with the Trump campaign in exchange for sanctions relief, all of which these geniuses have been freely discussing via MOTHERFUCKING EMAIL, I mean, yeah, it doesn't surprise me that someone at the FBI would get curious about just what the hell is going on.

You know, deep state and that.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 11, 2017, 02:52:24 pm
Excellent - and scary - analysis (https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/7/11/15953440/trump-russia-emails-watergate):

Quote from: Vox
And so we are faced with a crisis that leaves vast swaths of American politics stained. The election is tainted. The White House is tainted. Our foreign policy is tainted. If impeachment seems impossible, it is only because we believe that Republicans in Congress would sooner protect a criminal administration than risk their legislative agenda to uphold the rule of law — which is all to say, Congress is tainted, too.

The actors in this drama are often comic, pathetic, and incompetent. But the damage they have done, and are doing, is almost beyond imagining. As often as this looks like farce, we should not forget it’s a tragedy.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 11, 2017, 03:12:57 pm
The following day saw his first tweet regarding the Clinton email server.

It's worse than that.  The meeting was in Trump Tower at 4pm and reportedly lasted about 30 minutes.  Trump was in residence at Trump Tower that day.  The first ever tweet about Clinton emails came at...4:40pm. Same day.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on July 11, 2017, 07:27:17 pm
It's worse than that.  The meeting was in Trump Tower at 4pm and reportedly lasted about 30 minutes.  Trump was in residence at Trump Tower that day.  The first ever tweet about Clinton emails came at...4:40pm. Same day.

On June 7, Fredo Trump confirmed the meeting.

That night, Papa Trump promised he would have "a major speech with all he information on the Clintons, probably next week."


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 12, 2017, 08:23:04 am
As to my Sonny Corleone theory, Rachel Maddow - who is much smarter than me (and most other people) - last night explained exactly how Russia is getting what Russia wants (http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/russia-enjoying-great-success-with-trump-in-white-house-993315395858).  That blows my theory out of the water.

This mess appears to have been the NY Times flushing this rat out of the drainpipe with good, ol' fashioned investigative journalism.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 12, 2017, 08:35:13 am
With an amazing piece of coincidental timing, Christopher Wray is now sitting in front of the Senate for his confirmation hearing to be the replacement for James Comey.  I wonder what they'll ask him about.

Meanwhile, Trump Sr. is off on a trip to France, where he'll meet with noted Putin-botherer Emmanuel Macron.  I wonder what they'll talk about.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 12, 2017, 02:14:29 pm
An interesting aside: the Jr. emails have just given flesh to the motive for Sr's obstruction of justice accusation.  His defense has been that "nobody knows" if Russia actually hacked the election.  Well, now we know that Jr., Kushner and Manafort - at least - knew.  If Trump fired Comey merely to stop the investigation getting to these emails, then that's obstruction of justice.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Navin R Johnson on July 13, 2017, 09:53:07 am
Pretty crazy how fast we went from TrumpCo screaming that anything Russian related was a hoax and manufactured by the media to...well anyone would collude if given the chance.   Sad!
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 13, 2017, 10:50:57 am
Pretty crazy how fast we went from TrumpCo screaming that anything Russian related was a hoax and manufactured by the media to...well anyone would collude if given the chance.   Sad!

At least we can now rest assured that nothing came of the meeting...because they said so.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on July 13, 2017, 11:59:54 am
At least we can now rest assured that nothing came of the meeting...because they said so.

They are all so believable. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Navin R Johnson on July 13, 2017, 12:31:35 pm
They are all so believable. 

Exactly, there isnt a better example of projection than Trump's constant blathering about Fake News.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Duke on July 13, 2017, 01:00:54 pm
They are all so believable.

"I'm not a crook"
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on July 13, 2017, 02:07:13 pm
Exactly, there isnt a better example of projection than Trump's constant blathering about Fake News.

He reiterated today that he is a dumb (https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2017/07/13/trump-thinks-lot-people-don-know-forget-that-france-america-oldest-ally/beNUzVc4v8JswsoruZOlgJ/story.html) creep (http://www.businessinsider.com/president-trump-tells-brigitte-macron-good-shape-france-2017-7)
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 13, 2017, 03:02:19 pm
Exactly, there isnt a better example of projection than Trump's constant blathering about Fake News.

I caught a bit of Katy Tur (but not the bits I'd like to catch) at lunch.  She was interviewing a Republican Congressman who was steadfast in his belief that nothing happened in the meeting because there are no facts to suggest anything else.  Katy tried to point out that it's a fact that the Trumps have lied multiple times about the meeting, so he pivoted to the shooting to Steve Scalia.  I shit you not.

Watching NBC, it seems to me that Kacie Hunt has the demeanor of one's S.O. when you've just got in late from a night out with the lads, while Katy Tur has the demeanor of your S.O. when she's rolling in late from a night out with the gals.  See also Oil, Wesson.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 13, 2017, 03:05:07 pm
He reiterated today that he is a dumb (https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2017/07/13/trump-thinks-lot-people-don-know-forget-that-france-america-oldest-ally/beNUzVc4v8JswsoruZOlgJ/story.html) creep (http://www.businessinsider.com/president-trump-tells-brigitte-macron-good-shape-france-2017-7)

The France trip was arranged hastily as Trump only agreed to go once Macron promised him a parade with tanks 'n' shit (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-loves-a-military-parade--its-one-reason-hes-heading-to-paris/2017/07/12/ccd46894-66df-11e7-8eb5-cbccc2e7bfbf_story.html?utm_term=.05731bb125a5).  What's "man-child" in French?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on July 13, 2017, 04:20:59 pm
I suppose you could say he's a bit of an enfant terrible.

I'm still laughing at one of the things he said in the interview with Pat Robertson, who apparently is still alive somehow: Just got back from G20, amazing meeting, we had 20 counties there, you know.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on July 13, 2017, 05:19:59 pm
I suppose you could say he's a bit of an enfant terrible.

I'm still laughing at one of the things he said in the interview with Pat Robertson, who apparently is still alive somehow: Just got back from G20, amazing meeting, we had 20 counties there, you know.

What's SAD! is that I bet Trump was going on what he was told and didn't actually count the twenty countries himself. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 14, 2017, 08:21:28 am
What's SAD! is that I bet Trump was going on what he was told and didn't actually count the twenty countries himself.

"There are twenty countries in the world...not many people know this."

"Sir.  There are 196 countries."

"FAKE NEWS!"
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 14, 2017, 08:30:47 am
They are all so believable.

To wit, NBC is reporting that there was another attendee at the June meeting: an, as yet unnamed, ex-Soviet agent (https://youtu.be/5NNOrp_83RU).
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on July 14, 2017, 09:06:23 am
To wit, NBC is reporting that there was another attendee at the June meeting: an, as yet unnamed, ex-Soviet agent (https://youtu.be/5NNOrp_83RU).
The press isn't very sharp.  This Russian lady has been interviewed numerous times, always through an interpreter, at least from what I've seen.  So, one logical question to Dumbass Jr., or at least to opine about, would be "Did this Russian attorney speak English to you."  "If not, do you speak Russian."  "If not, does Kushner or Manafort."  "If not, how the fuck did y'all communicate."  I've heard reporters say that there was interpreter in the meeting, but that doesn't square with the sudden newsflash that there was at least a fifth person in the room.

I realize that a shit-ton of stuff has been dropped on the press and they are not trained investigators, but I sure hope Mueller is fifty steps ahead of the press, on this matter and the numerous ones we will learn about in the coming weeks and months.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 14, 2017, 09:26:32 am
He reiterated today that he is a dumb (https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2017/07/13/trump-thinks-lot-people-don-know-forget-that-france-america-oldest-ally/beNUzVc4v8JswsoruZOlgJ/story.html) creep (http://www.businessinsider.com/president-trump-tells-brigitte-macron-good-shape-france-2017-7)

Here's video (https://www.facebook.com/InTheKnowByAOL/videos/870511629771286/) of Trump refusing to release Brigitte Macron's hand from his tiny, vice-grip; and later complimenting her body right in front of his own wife (who she pulls in front of her for protection).  He is a horror of a man.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 14, 2017, 09:38:24 am
The press isn't very sharp.  This Russian lady has been interviewed numerous times, always through an interpreter, at least from what I've seen.  So, one logical question to Dumbass Jr., or at least to opine about, would be "Did this Russian attorney speak English to you."  "If not, do you speak Russian."  "If not, does Kushner or Manafort."  "If not, how the fuck did y'all communicate."  I've heard reporters say that there was interpreter in the meeting, but that doesn't square with the sudden newsflash that there was at least a fifth person in the room.

I realize that a shit-ton of stuff has been dropped on the press and they are not trained investigators, but I sure hope Mueller is fifty steps ahead of the press, on this matter and the numerous ones we will learn about in the coming weeks and months.


Kinda like when Sr. let the Russian Ambassador and Russian Foreign Minister into the Oval Office with their own camera crew.  No security threat there, having some unknown Russians in there with a bunch of electronic equipment...
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: BudGirl on July 14, 2017, 09:45:15 am
Here's video (https://www.facebook.com/InTheKnowByAOL/videos/870511629771286/) of Trump refusing to release Brigitte Macron's hand from his tiny, vice-grip; and later complimenting her body right in front of his own wife (who she pulls in front of her for protection).  He is a horror of a man.

I'm just glad he didn't grab her by the pussy.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on July 14, 2017, 10:05:18 am
Meanwhile, back at The Wall, Trump wants it to be solar and physically (though certainly not financially) transparent: (http://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/13/trump-explains-why-he-wants-to-be-able-to-see-through-his-border-wall.html)

Question: You were joking about solar, right?
Trump: No, not joking, no. There is a chance that we can do a solar wall. We have major companies looking at that. Look, there's no better place for solar than the Mexico border -- the southern border. And there is a very good chance we can do a solar wall, which would actually look good. But there is a very good chance we could do a solar wall.
One of the things with the wall is you need transparency. You have to be able to see through it. In other words, if you can't see through that wall — so it could be a steel wall with openings, but you have to have openings because you have to see what's on the other side of the wall.
And I'll give you an example. As horrible as it sounds, when they throw the large sacks of drugs over, and if you have people on the other side of the wall, you don't see them -- they hit you on the head with 60 pounds of stuff? It's over. As cray as that sounds, you need transparency through that wall. But we have some incredible designs.


And he did actually say "cray" instead of "crazy."  Frankly, I'm a little impressed with his vision.  If you're going to build something as stupid as a 2,000 mile wall, you might as well lean into it. 

Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on July 14, 2017, 10:57:07 am
Well, that is the first time this fucking imbecile has made me laugh out loud. I'm imagining some poor sap standing around in the shade in Presidio, Texas, minding his own business when suddenly, WHOMP, crushed like a June bug by one of those archetypal 60-pound bags of cocaine the bad hombres are forever heaving over the border.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on July 14, 2017, 11:00:15 am
Well, that is the first time this fucking imbecile has made me laugh out loud. I'm imagining some poor sap standing around in the shade in Presidio, Texas, minding his own business when suddenly, WHOMP, crushed like a June bug by one of those archetypal 60-pound bags of cocaine the bad hombres are forever heaving over the border.

"The large sacks of drugs."  It's like he views the world solely in terms of bugs bunny cartoons. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 14, 2017, 11:02:52 am
And he did actually say "cray" instead of "crazy."  Frankly, I'm a little impressed with his vision.  If you're going to build something as stupid as a 2,000 mile wall, you might as well lean into it.

There is so much stupid here it's hard to know where to begin.  Is he saying that we need openings in the wall so we can see people trying to throw sacks of drugs over it?  Won't they just push drugs through the openings in the wall?  Won't they just keep tunneling like they do now?  Don't solar panels have to be not-vertical to catch the sun?  Won't putting solar panels on 2,000 miles of wall be cray-expensive?  Won't all that energy production kill coal jobs?  WHO IS GOING TO PAY FOR THE FUCKING THING?

I now understand why he watches back recordings of his TV appearances with the volume down:  listening to what he says destroys brain cells.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 14, 2017, 11:05:48 am
Well, that is the first time this fucking imbecile has made me laugh out loud. I'm imagining some poor sap standing around in the shade in Presidio, Texas, minding his own business when suddenly, WHOMP, crushed like a June bug by one of those archetypal 60-pound bags of cocaine the bad hombres are forever heaving over the border.

I am reminded of this parody (https://youtu.be/o-vtFZAaTDY) of the classic British comedy "Whisky Galore".
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 14, 2017, 11:06:13 am
"The large sacks of drugs."  It's like he views the world solely in terms of bugs bunny cartoons.

What's Spanish for "Acme"?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on July 14, 2017, 11:07:41 am
"The large sacks of drugs."  It's like he views the world solely in terms of bugs bunny cartoons.

Speedy Gonzales was a bad hombre.


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Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 14, 2017, 11:10:37 am
Speedy Gonzales was a bad hombre.

The DEA has already unearthed equipment being built by the cartels (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_96uP6vDZMT8/S_qX8wdyoBI/AAAAAAAAMTw/dxJDLTyJxxA/s400/COYOTE2+-+BEEP+BEEP+%2852%292.png) to bypass Trump's wall.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 14, 2017, 11:19:15 am
"The large sacks of drugs."  It's like he views the world solely in terms of bugs bunny cartoons.

Maybe they should paint gaps in the wall on the Mexican side; that way the drug runners will crash into the wall thinking there's a gap, thus foiling their plan.  The unfortunate downside is that a number of cats may end up with a stripe of white paint down their backs, and get raped by illegal alien skunks.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on July 14, 2017, 11:24:20 am
Maybe they should paint gaps in the wall on the Mexican side; that way the drug runners will crash into the wall thinking there's a gap, thus foiling their plan.  The unfortunate downside is that a number of cats may end up with a stripe of white paint down their backs, and get raped by illegal alien skunks.

90% of the time, the cats and skunks were drunk, so the cats had it coming.



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Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 14, 2017, 11:28:01 am
Seriously, if his wall can be defeated as easily as a burly Mexican lobbing sacks over it, why the fuck are we bothering to build it?

We haven't even started getting into high tech solutions like ropes and ladders, which have been around for tens of thousands of years.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on July 14, 2017, 11:40:49 am
The DEA has already unearthed equipment being built by the cartels (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_96uP6vDZMT8/S_qX8wdyoBI/AAAAAAAAMTw/dxJDLTyJxxA/s400/COYOTE2+-+BEEP+BEEP+%2852%292.png) to bypass Trump's wall.

Vicente Fox made a mocking video recently in which he displayed a "schematic downloaded from the dark web" of a special device designed to thwart the wall. It was of course a ladder.

There's a surf town here called Santa Catalina. It's a pretty cool place, all in all. I usually do my dive trips from there. I almost always stay at the same place, a place run by a Portuguese surfer who's been there for, I don't know, 25 years at least. He knows every last thing about the place, of course. He was telling me about a time not that long ago when a large shipment of cocaine washed up on the town's beaches. The local youth are in general none too bright. Probably a lot like the local youth anywhere. These guys snatched up the various packages and set about moving their weight. Well, obviously, the client list for kilos of cocaine in the greater Santa Catalina - Soná area is limited, and since it apparently never occurred to any of these budding Tony Montanas to head to the capital and look up some real gangsters, they did the best they could with the gringo surfers and the like that would roll through town.

It didn't take long before the local police figured out what was going on. The ringleader of this operation was a guy named Ponky. Ponky worked out of the town's main store, part (very) small grocery, part miscellaneous items. There's a phone booth just outside. The main police station for the area is in Soná, which is maybe an hour away depending on the condition of the road that day. Apparently the police weren't interested in driving down to Santa Catalina to make the bust, so one of them had a nice idea. They ring the phone booth.

- Yello!
- Ponky, that you?!
- Yo!
- Hey, heard you got some product!
- Sure do! Whaddaya need?!
- Oh, I don't know, as much as you got!
- You bet!
- Say, why don't you hop the next bus outta there and meet me in Soná? I'll be the guy waiting at the bus station!
- On the way!

So, yes, Ponky got on a bus and literally delivered the drugs (and himself) directly to the police who were too lazy to come down and arrest him.

The only thing that's really surprising is that this doesn't happen all the time, drugs washing up on the beach. I can't imagine the quantity of drugs that find their way into the country through the Pacific coast.  Why this doesn't happen every week I just can't imagine.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Navin R Johnson on July 14, 2017, 01:03:26 pm
The idea of securing the southern border, in certain places is a good idea. Obama was for, Clinton was for it, anyone with any sense is for it.   The idea of building a 3000 mile long 60ft high wall on the other hand, is singularly one of the stupidest things I have ever heard of.  Of course Trump and most the simpletons that adore him think it is brilliant.  It is so dumb it is hard to wrap my head around the idea that there are living breathing people that think it makes sense....but here we are.

To Trump's credit, it sound like he is at least listening to the people that actually understand the border.  One of their biggest complaints behind his idiotic idea was that they need to be able to see the other side.   Up until now, everything I read was that he was unwilling to budge on an "wall" vs some sort of fence, so that LEO could see what was happening on the other side.

It appears that simply explaining that to our rube of a President didn't work, instead they tricked him with the idea of people being killed by Mexicans randomly lobbing over huge sacks of drugs.   What the actual Fuck. Cray Times!
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on July 14, 2017, 01:14:39 pm
And remember this, it’s a 2,000 mile border, but you don’t need 2,000 miles of wall because you have a lot of natural barriers. You have mountains. You have some rivers that are violent and vicious. You have some areas that are so far away that you don’t really have people crossing.

Mexicans are notoriously afraid of mountains. And by 'some rivers,' I assume he means 'a' river. A lot of people don't know this, but it's only one river that forms a border. Anyway, it's a good thing it's too violent and vicious for anyone to ever think of crossing it.

And then all those areas that are too far away. We can forget about those places, thank heavens. Who in his right mind would want to lug 60-pound sacks of drugs through a remote desert? AND, we're currently repairing parts of the existing wall, so in reality you can accurately say that we have in fact begun the wall.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 14, 2017, 01:15:28 pm
It appears that simply explaining that to our rube of a President didn't work, instead they tricked him with the idea of people being killed by Mexicans randomly lobbing over huge sacks of drugs.   What the actual Fuck. Cray Times!

As funny as it was, when SNL had Trump sit at the kid's desk playing with a toy while Bannon ran the country, the truth is actually way more scary.  Nobody is running anything, and Trump is as in charge as anyone can be in this Blazing Saddles pie fight (https://youtu.be/_AOeSrLCD-U) of an administration.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 14, 2017, 01:18:25 pm
Mexicans are notoriously afraid of mountains. And by 'some rivers,' I assume he means 'a' river. A lot of people don't know this, but it's only one river that forms a border. Anyway, it's a good thing it's too violent and vicious for anyone to ever think of crossing it.

I wonder if anyone has managed to build a bridge (https://youtu.be/Wpx6XnankZ8) over this raging horror of a waterway?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 14, 2017, 01:23:06 pm
Former Russian counter-intelligence operative turned lobbyist has admitted attending the June 2016 meeting (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/14/donald-trump-jr-meeting-russian-lobbyist-rinat-akhmetshin).  So, let's call the roll shall we:

Russian, Kremlin-connected lawyer
Russian Interpreter
Russian counter-intelligence agent
Manafort
Kushner
Trump Jr.

Topic:  babies.

Totally credible.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: NeilT on July 14, 2017, 01:25:34 pm
The idea of securing the southern border, in certain places is a good idea. Obama was for, Clinton was for it, anyone with any sense is for it.   The idea of building a 3000 mile long 60ft high wall on the other hand, is singularly one of the stupidest things I have ever heard of.  Of course Trump and most the simpletons that adore him think it is brilliant.  It is so dumb it is hard to wrap my head around the idea that there are living breathing people that think it makes sense....but here we are.

To Trump's credit, it sound like he is at least listening to the people that actually understand the border.  One of their biggest complaints behind his idiotic idea was that they need to be able to see the other side.   Up until now, everything I read was that he was unwilling to budge on an "wall" vs some sort of fence, so that LEO could see what was happening on the other side.

It appears that simply explaining that to our rube of a President didn't work, instead they tricked him with the idea of people being killed by Mexicans randomly lobbing over huge sacks of drugs.   What the actual Fuck. Cray Times!

People keep talking about the wall with Mexico, but it's the Canadians we should be worried about.  They're the ones who gave us Ted Cruz. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 14, 2017, 01:33:03 pm
People keep talking about the wall with Mexico, but it's the Canadians we should be worried about.  They're the ones who gave us Ted Cruz.

...and Bryan Adams.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Navin R Johnson on July 14, 2017, 01:34:59 pm
And Maryland.   They are the ones who gave us that shitstain Dan Patrick.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: AstroNut on July 14, 2017, 01:41:16 pm
And all the blue states...losers.

The Russians are coming...The Russians are coming...The sky is falling...The sky is falling.

Go 'Stros...let get this second half started....before the Russians take over.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 14, 2017, 01:48:27 pm
And all the blue states...losers.

The Russians are coming...The Russians are coming...The sky is falling...The sky is falling.

Go 'Stros...let get this second half started....before the Russians take over.

Before?  Too late.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: BudGirl on July 14, 2017, 01:50:21 pm
And all the blue states...losers.

The Russians are coming...The Russians are coming...The sky is falling...The sky is falling.

Go 'Stros...let get this second half started....before the Russians take over.

Why do you trust the Russians?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Navin R Johnson on July 14, 2017, 02:21:35 pm
And all the blue states...losers.

The Russians are coming...The Russians are coming...The sky is falling...The sky is falling.

Go 'Stros...let get this second half started....before the Russians take over.

Plenty of wonderful folks in Blue states, Dan Patrick aint one of them.   I mean Dan Goeb, which is he real name.   Everything about Dan is fake.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on July 14, 2017, 02:27:31 pm
Former Russian counter-intelligence operative turned lobbyist has admitted attending the June 2016 meeting (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/14/donald-trump-jr-meeting-russian-lobbyist-rinat-akhmetshin).  So, let's call the roll shall we:

Russian, Kremlin-connected lawyer
Russian Interpreter
Russian counter-intelligence agent
Manafort
Kushner
Trump Jr.

Topic:  babies.

Totally credible.

The translator apparently was not a Russian but instead a fellow named John Barron.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on July 14, 2017, 02:28:11 pm
The translator apparently was not a Russian but instead a fellow named John Barron.

Jim couldn't make it because he was still in Paris freaking out about brown people. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Andyzipp on July 14, 2017, 02:35:10 pm
90% of the time, the cats and skunks were drunk, so the cats had it coming.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Did these cats attend Baylor?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Navin R Johnson on July 14, 2017, 03:14:03 pm
The cats at Baylor get killed by the baseball players.   
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/bbw/2001-04-11/2001-04-11-colleges.htm

Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Knoxbanedoodle on July 14, 2017, 06:10:11 pm
Funny how all these people ostensibly up in arms over the idea of HRC meeting secretly with international swells to conspire an end to American sovereignty couldn't care less that their guy was actively courting a foreign country's aid in the election, and has been demonstrably lying about it the whole time.

I know it doesn't do any good to point out hypocrisy, but Jesus Christ...
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Ron Brand on July 14, 2017, 08:02:27 pm
To Trump's credit, it sound like he is at least listening to the people that actually understand the border. 

Not so fast. (https://www.texasobserver.org/trump-border-wall-texas-wildlife-refuge-breaking/)
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: AstroNut on July 14, 2017, 10:27:43 pm
Why do you trust the Russians?

I neither trust them or fear them...fuck them....but they have a couple thousand nuclear, deplorable
weapons...so I respect them. No need to piss them off if we can find common ground. It's a different bear these days.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Lefty on July 16, 2017, 11:50:38 am
Funny how all these people ostensibly up in arms over the idea of HRC meeting secretly with international swells to conspire an end to American sovereignty couldn't care less that their guy was actively courting a foreign country's aid in the election, and has been demonstrably lying about it the whole time.

I know it doesn't do any good to point out hypocrisy, but Jesus Christ...

From an ABC/WaPo Poll:

% of GOP who believe Russia sought to interfere in the 2016 election...
April: 18%
 July: 9%

Also, 58% of GOP poll respondents believe colleges and universities have a negative impact on the country.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on July 16, 2017, 12:02:11 pm

Also, 58% of GOP poll respondents believe colleges and universities have a negative impact on the country.

That result makes me question the validity of a lot of things.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Lefty on July 16, 2017, 12:22:56 pm
That result makes me question the validity of a lot of things.

It's honestly depressing to think about.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on July 16, 2017, 01:18:34 pm
I saw recently where some Democratic strategists were looking at polling numbers in a purple congressional district and they were shocked to discover that among Republicans Trump is more popular now than he was when he was elected or sworn in or whatever it was. It didn't surprise me at all. Of course, I'm not a highly paid operative tasked with discovering new and fucked up ways to lose every election ever held.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: moriartp on July 16, 2017, 02:59:09 pm
Some of that increase is probably due to Trump-skeptical GOP voters no longer identifying as Republican. Not that it makes a difference as long as they continue to *vote* Republican, as they almost certainly will.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on July 16, 2017, 03:32:48 pm
I neither trust them or fear them...fuck them....but they have a couple thousand nuclear, deplorable
weapons...so I respect them. No need to piss them off if we can find common ground. It's a different bear these days.

What's the common ground?  Ending NATO or embracing authoritarianism? 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: WVastro on July 16, 2017, 03:39:28 pm
What's the common ground?  Ending NATO or embracing authoritarianism?

Hate for "the gays".
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on July 16, 2017, 05:00:55 pm
Hate for "the gays".
It always gets back to Pussy Riot.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: hostros7 on July 16, 2017, 05:47:59 pm

Also, 58% of GOP poll respondents believe colleges and universities have a negative impact on the country.

Except for Trump U. Trump U does nothing but churn out motherfuckin' winners. Big time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Lefty on July 16, 2017, 06:37:11 pm
Of course, I'm not a highly paid operative tasked with discovering new and fucked up ways to lose every election ever held.
Why the fuck not?  You can telecommute to that gig.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 17, 2017, 08:15:57 am
The translator apparently was not a Russian but instead a fellow named John Barron.

The Hill is reporting (http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/342200-meet-the-people-in-the-room-during-trump-jrs-russia-meeting) that the translator was a Russian, that Limey-Weirdo Rob Goldstone was there too and an, as yet unidentified, 8th person, most likely a representative of the oligarch Agalarov.

#Transparency
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 17, 2017, 08:17:58 am
I neither trust them or fear them...fuck them....but they have a couple thousand nuclear, deplorable
weapons...so I respect them. No need to piss them off if we can find common ground. It's a different bear these days.

Different than through the 50s, 60s, 70s and much of the 80s, when there was a real threat of global thermo nuclear war?

They cyber-attacked us.  Just because there isn't (yet) a giant smoking hole in the ground doesn't mean it didn't happen and/or it's ok because it was just Hillary.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 17, 2017, 08:33:26 am
From an ABC/WaPo Poll:

% of GOP who believe Russia sought to interfere in the 2016 election...
April: 18%
 July: 9%

Also, 58% of GOP poll respondents believe colleges and universities have a negative impact on the country.


Hard core conservative voters are a lost cause.  Good news, they're only about 30% of the electorate.  Among the rest of us, Trump is plumbing historically new lows with each new poll (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/16/trump-campaign-paid-50000-to-trump-jrs-lawyer-before-emails-released).

This hard core conservative agenda is easily beaten by a moderate/progressive coalition, but good fucking luck getting all of them on the same page.  Such a coalition has a very high crossover in the Venn, but will continue to lose if it continues to fuss over the minutiae.  Meanwhile, conservatives continue to show that they will vote in lockstep for "their guy" even it it's a giant orange piece of shit like Trump.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 17, 2017, 04:21:18 pm
Spicey's back!!!!  Asked about Trump Jr's big Russia meeting, Spicer couldn't understand why everyone was so bent out of shape over a meeting about adoptions.  Way to keep up with current events (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/sean-spicer-donald-trump-jr-eeting_us_596d0765e4b0b95f893d4e5e)!
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 18, 2017, 08:50:49 am
Tuesday:

Trumpcare is dead in the Senate.  Now they're returning to a simply repeal of Obamacare to put us back where we were before the ACA, because that was great!  Not sure if they can do this with reconciliation, for which they remain on the same knife edge as Trumpcare, but they sure as shit don't have 60 votes if that's what's needed.  Assuming they can do this, it'll mean that the 20-or-so million people who got insurance under the ACA - either through Medicaid expansion or simply the protections against excluding pre-existing conditions - will return to the world of the uninsured, along with anyone else diagnosed with any serious illness in the meantime.

The WSJ has scolded Trump and his family for lying and stonewalling over Russia (no link as behind a paywall), comparing it to the Clinton scandals.  They called for the whole of TrumpWorld to put its Russia cards on the table - including business dealings and taxes - take the short-term hit and let us all get on with life thereafter.  Sound advice, assuming that there's not more evidence of illegal activity on those cards.  Naive advice if you're the head of a crime family that's up to its eyeballs in real estate money laundering, tax avoidance, international cyber crime and election fraud.

The WSJ also reports  (no link as behind the same paywall) that Paul Manafort - Trump's former campaign chairman and Russian adoption expert - took out personal loans from a bank just after the election.  Nothing to see here, right?  Well the bank is owned by a former Trump campaign advisor who overlapped in service to the campaign with Manafort.  Still nothing to see?  Well the loan was for $16mm, which is about 25% of that bank's equity capital.  New York investigators have asked to see the documents.  No shit.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on July 18, 2017, 09:30:24 am
They called for the whole of TrumpWorld to put its Russia cards on the table - including business dealings and taxes - take the short-term hit and let us all get on with life thereafter. Sound advice, assuming that there's not more evidence of illegal activity on those cards.  Naive advice if you're the head of a crime family that's up to its eyeballs in real estate money laundering, tax avoidance, international cyber crime and election fraud.
Been hearing the bolded point from pundits for awhile now.  The naivete embedded in this belief that makes me wonder about the media.  They really can't be this stupid; they have to know that he doesn't just come clean cause he is dirty.  This also runs counter to the idea that the media is some liberal, anti-Trump group.  Bullshit.  They are bending over backwards to give this crook the benefit of the doubt and be way on his side of neutral. 

Let me break it to them: he isn't coming clean and he isn't going to fucking pivot.  Stop acting like he is capable of anything other than what he is, an egotistical boob. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 18, 2017, 10:45:25 am
Been hearing the bolded point from pundits for awhile now.  The naivete embedded in this belief that makes me wonder about the media.  They really can't be this stupid; they have to know that he doesn't just come clean cause he is dirty.  This also runs counter to the idea that the media is some liberal, anti-Trump group.  Bullshit.  They are bending over backwards to give this crook the benefit of the doubt and be way on his side of neutral. 

Let me break it to them: he isn't coming clean and he isn't going to fucking pivot.  Stop acting like he is capable of anything other than what he is, an egotistical boob.


Trump is also hamstrung by his rampant nepotism; he's put his entire family in serious jeopardy by using them as proxies for himself.  Nixon progressively threw his inner circle under the Watergate bus until there was no one left.  Trump can't do that because there'd be no one at the table at Thanksgiving if he did.

I think the only way he gets out of it is to pardon the whole lot - himself included (it's woolly as to whether that's allowed or not) - and then quit en masse.  He can issue pardons for crimes not yet prosecuted, but he can't forgive crimes not yet committed.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on July 18, 2017, 12:42:42 pm
Let me break it to them: he isn't coming clean and he isn't going to fucking pivot.  Stop acting like he is capable of anything other than what he is, an egotistical boob.

It seems evident to me that television current events entertainment networks, all of them, however you arrange them along the axis, all of them are interested in stringing this out as long as possible. And why wouldn't they be? There is no journalism done on television. I don't know if there ever was but there certainly isn't now. So a fucked up goat rodeo like this is a total goldmine for everyone involved.

As for the various newspapers of record, I think it will take some perspective that we are a long way yet from having to know if they are playing this the right way. There has been some disclosure, sure, and some pushback against the constant deluge of complete fabrication - lies - but not enough to be satisfying to a guy like me. Of course I may not be the best possible benchmark. It seems to me like the Times and the Post are largely playing this very cautiously, and at the end of the day that's surely the best way to go.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Ron Brand on July 18, 2017, 01:12:40 pm
Been hearing the bolded point from pundits for awhile now.  The naivete embedded in this belief that makes me wonder about the media.

Generally speaking, when you get to stories like this and it's the most major, storied entities of the press, these folks are sharp as hell and are buried in reams of information that require technique and experience in order to get the truth, discard the fiction, and stay on the right side of the law. That's part of why these things progress slowly. I suspect that asking these questions in this manner is an attempt to frame this in the light of what Everyman would like to know and either get Trump to deny or lie some more, drawing the noose tighter. They know he'll never come clean, but it's a way of adding negative pressure to him.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 18, 2017, 03:27:43 pm
Generally speaking, when you get to stories like this and it's the most major, storied entities of the press, these folks are sharp as hell and are buried in reams of information that require technique and experience in order to get the truth, discard the fiction, and stay on the right side of the law.

The blizzard of shit is not a bug, it's a feature.  We're supposed to be stupified by Trumpian distractions while the Republicans set about their agenda - which includes voter suppression - so that, by the time the next election rolls around, there's no way they can be removed from power.  Also, we have always been at war with Eastasia.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on July 18, 2017, 03:37:33 pm
Also, we have always been at war with Eastasia.

Reading that I reflexively conjured up from absolutely nowhere a little refrain, 'Put the paper in the slot,' sung to the tune of Borat's 'Throw the Jew Down the Well.'

I believe I may be losing my mind.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 19, 2017, 08:08:13 am
At the G20, in addition to the 30-minute meeting between Trump and Putin that went on for 2 hours, they had another, undisclosed, hour-long meeting that evening.  I guess Donald was feeling left out as being the only one with undisclosed meetings with a Russian.

The meeting was just Trump, Putin and Putin's interpreter.  There is no official record (at least on the US side) of what was discussed.  He knows he works for us, right?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 19, 2017, 08:54:26 am
An interesting observation on the repeal and delay effort: it failed, almost instantly after the replacement effort failed, because three women Republican senators killed it.  The women who were excluded from the boys' club who crafted the replacement legislation in their secret, no girls allowed treehouse.

Payback's a bitch.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on July 19, 2017, 05:52:02 pm
Now Trump is ending a covert CIA program (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-usa-syria-idUSKBN1A42KC) to equip and train rebel groups fighting against noted human rights-abuser (and the target of Trump's theater warfare) Assad.  Of course, this is a move that has been sought by Russia.

The U.S. decision, said one of the officials, is part of an effort by the administration to improve relations with Russia, which along with Iranian-supported groups has largely succeeded in preserving Assad's government in the six-year-civil war.

Not a puppet!
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on July 19, 2017, 06:53:19 pm
His puppitude is undeniable by any honest person.  It's gotten past embarrassing that the Republicans are silent; it's now dangerous.

Just heard that that Trump said looking into his family finances is a red line for Mueller. Gee, I wonder if there's anything there? 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on July 19, 2017, 07:03:23 pm
And in an interview with the NYT, he says he would have never appointed Sessions if he had known that Sessions would recuse himself, calling it "very unfair to the President."

In other words, the AG's job is to cover for the President, not to lead the Justice Department.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on July 19, 2017, 09:00:58 pm
His puppitude is undeniable by any honest person.  It's gotten past embarrassing that the Republicans are silent; it's now dangerous.

I always knew that Republicans were totally fucking full of shit but I never properly recognized that they are irredeemably depraved. I mean, they're enabling an at best treasonous know-nothing to bull through the china shop - as you say, dangerous - and for what? Their legislative agenda? They don't have one, not beyond the vague idea of debilitating the federal government and giving tax breaks to the richest people they can find. It ain't like they're trying to pass the Civil Rights Act.

They're a party completely bereft of ideas. They've had who the fuck knows how long to come up with some healthcare plan, since Bush, at least, so the better part of 20 years, and the best they can do now is try to dismantle Medicaid in order to execute a massive wealth transfer from the people who need it most to the people who need it least. And these dickfaces can't even do that with a Republican president, a Republican House, a Republican Senate and a motherfucking Republican Supreme Court.

And of course when you get 45% of Republicans saying that they simply do not believe that Trump Jr met with a Russian lawyer when the motherfucker publicly admitted to it, well, it doesn't take Magellan to see that you necks are in some turbulent waters.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: austro on July 19, 2017, 09:18:30 pm
And of course when you get 45% of Republicans saying that they simply do not believe that Trump Jr met with a Russian lawyer when the motherfucker publicly admitted to it, well, it doesn't take Magellan to see that you necks are in some turbulent waters.

They're going to do damage that won't be undone in my lifetime. It's very depressing. And in 20 years, or maybe even only 10, we're really going to regret getting distracted by all of this shit instead of figuring out how to accelerate a transition off of fossil fuel and mitigate the  consequences that are already baked in.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on July 19, 2017, 09:54:59 pm
They're going to do damage that won't be undone in my lifetime. It's very depressing. And in 20 years, or maybe even only 10, we're really going to regret getting distracted by all of this shit instead of figuring out how to accelerate a transition off of fossil fuel and mitigate the  consequences that are already baked in.

I'm a great believer in technology and I like to hope that there will be a technological solution to the catastrophe that we're creating. But it is a real testament to the Republicans' total lack of imagination (and total subservience to fear) that they send Scott Pruitt and Rick Perry out dressed up like Broadway extras to do the Petro Hustle instead of saying, Hey, you know, we invented or effectively commercialized the steam engine, the internal combustion engine, the jet engine, the silicon chip, you know, why the hell can't we figure out how to commercialize the fuck out of renewables and lead the world in the next (and inevitable) economic revolution?

But nope.

Imagine if in the early 70's the fucking typewriter ribbon lobby was like, Hey, hey HEY! Now wait a goddamn minute, here!
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: BudGirl on July 20, 2017, 07:51:11 am
This is a
They're going to do damage that won't be undone in my lifetime. It's very depressing. And in 20 years, or maybe even only 10, we're really going to regret getting distracted by all of this shit instead of figuring out how to accelerate a transition off of fossil fuel and mitigate the  consequences that are already baked in.

I agree and it is sad.  It is probably the only reason I am glad I don't have kids.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on July 20, 2017, 07:53:25 am
I'm a great believer in technology and I like to hope that there will be a technological solution to the catastrophe that we're creating. But it is a real testament to the Republicans' total lack of imagination (and total subservience to fear) that they send Scott Pruitt and Rick Perry out dressed up like Broadway extras to do the Petro Hustle instead of saying, Hey, you know, we invented or effectively commercialized the steam engine, the internal combustion engine, the jet engine, the silicon chip, you know, why the hell can't we figure out how to commercialize the fuck out of renewables and lead the world in the next (and inevitable) economic revolution?

But nope.

Imagine if in the early 70's the fucking typewriter ribbon lobby was like, Hey, hey HEY! Now wait a goddamn minute, here!
I totally agree but I still like the analog sound of vinyl better than the digital sound of mp3 and I prefer tube amps to solid state.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 20, 2017, 08:30:31 am
His puppitude is undeniable by any honest person.  It's gotten past embarrassing that the Republicans are silent; it's now dangerous.

Just heard that that Trump said looking into his family finances is a red line for Mueller. Gee, I wonder if there's anything there?

There's an saying that I heard the other day (from the middle east, I believe) being applied to Congressional Republicans:
"You can wake someone who's sleeping, but you can never wake someone who's pretending to be asleep."

Mean while, in the unhinged NYT interview, Trump said he would fire Mueller if he went after his family's finances, which is exactly what Mueller is now doing.  Also, he said that he has secret tapes information on serious conflicts of interest with Mueller, and that he just might start releasing it soon.  So Trump is trying to unduly influence the Special Prosecutor who is investigating him for unduly influencing the FBI Director.  A very large part of all the things that make Trump a truly terrible person, is that he's incredibly dumb and thinks he's incredibly smart.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 20, 2017, 08:33:49 am
They're going to do damage that won't be undone in my lifetime. It's very depressing. And in 20 years, or maybe even only 10, we're really going to regret getting distracted by all of this shit instead of figuring out how to accelerate a transition off of fossil fuel and mitigate the  consequences that are already baked in.

We'll be buying lots of shit from furriners, because we spent the second decade of the 21st century focusing on "clean" coal technology.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 20, 2017, 08:36:47 am
I totally agree but I still like the analog sound of vinyl better than the digital sound of mp3 and I prefer tube amps to solid state.

The difference is, you're not trying to legislate that digital music isn't real.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 20, 2017, 08:55:04 am
I always knew that Republicans were totally fucking full of shit but I never properly recognized that they are irredeemably depraved. I mean, they're enabling an at best treasonous know-nothing to bull through the china shop - as you say, dangerous - and for what? Their legislative agenda? They don't have one, not beyond the vague idea of debilitating the federal government and giving tax breaks to the richest people they can find. It ain't like they're trying to pass the Civil Rights Act.

They're a party completely bereft of ideas. They've had who the fuck knows how long to come up with some healthcare plan, since Bush, at least, so the better part of 20 years, and the best they can do now is try to dismantle Medicaid in order to execute a massive wealth transfer from the people who need it most to the people who need it least. And these dickfaces can't even do that with a Republican president, a Republican House, a Republican Senate and a motherfucking Republican Supreme Court.

And of course when you get 45% of Republicans saying that they simply do not believe that Trump Jr met with a Russian lawyer when the motherfucker publicly admitted to it, well, it doesn't take Magellan to see that you necks are in some turbulent waters.


Republicans built their entire modern-day existence on being in opposition.  It's was tons of fun holding 50, 60, 70 Obamacare repeal votes in the House, knowing that they would die in the Senate or, failing that, Obama would veto it.  When it came to actually repealing it, they shit all over themselves in public.  You're absolutely right that they have no ideas other than tax cuts work because...well...because...and don't look at every single time that tax cuts have tanked the economy and every single time that tax increases have stimulated the economy.

They yearn to make America great again, while failing to actually specify what they mean.  If they want to go back to the heyday of the middle class - which seems to be the nebulous concept they espouse - that's great.  In the 50s and 60s a working class family could buy a house, two cars and put their kids through college on a single income.  America made stuff and innovated like no one else.  Also, the top tax rate was 95%.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 20, 2017, 08:57:42 am
July 26:  Trump Jr. and Manafort will testify in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee.  The hearing will be live on TV.

Buy the popcorn and book your time off now!
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on July 20, 2017, 09:05:42 am
July 26:  Trump Jr. and Manafort will testify in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee.  The hearing will be live on TV.

Buy the popcorn and book your time off now!

No, they've been "invited" to testify. Whether they will is an open question.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 20, 2017, 09:11:16 am
No, they've been "invited" to testify. Whether they will is an open question.

Ah, hadn't seen that.  Yeah, no way he goes, he's too stupid not to vomit incriminating word salad all over himself.

Kushner is supposedly going to testify in closed session to the Senate Intelligence Committee.  No idea if that's voluntary or not but, as a White House job-holder, he may not have a choice.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on July 20, 2017, 09:52:17 am
July 26:  Trump Jr. and Manafort will testify in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee.  The hearing will be live on TV.

Buy the popcorn and book your time off now!
The sad truth is more Americans will tune in to see the OJ parole hearings.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 20, 2017, 10:11:42 am
Trump thinks health insurance costs $12.  A year.  Seriously (https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/7/20/16002764/trump-health-costs).  Further, as stated in the linked article, he thinks it's down 20% since May, when he estimated it cost $15.

How can you solve a problem when you are completely clueless as to what it is?  How can you be this clueless?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Col. Sphinx Drummond on July 20, 2017, 11:03:54 am
Trump thinks health insurance costs $12.  A year.  Seriously (https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/7/20/16002764/trump-health-costs).  Further, as stated in the linked article, he thinks it's down 20% since May, when he estimated it cost $15.

How can you solve a problem when you are completely clueless as to what it is?  How can you be this clueless?

Here's the transcript (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/19/us/politics/trump-interview-transcript.html) of the interview that article quotes. It's got some gems.

My favorite passage:
Quote
HABERMAN: [In Paris], I don’t think I’ve seen you look like you were enjoying yourself that much since the convention, really.

TRUMP: I have had the best reviews on foreign land. So I go to Poland and make a speech. Enemies of mine in the media, enemies of mine are saying it was the greatest speech ever made on foreign soil by a president. I’m saying, man, they cover [garbled]. You saw the reviews I got on that speech. Poland was beautiful and wonderful, and the reception was incredible.

And then, went to France the following week, because it was the 100th year. [inaudible] The Paris Accord — I wasn’t going to get along with France for a little while, because people forget, because it is a very unfair agreement to us. China doesn’t get [garbled] until 2030. Russia goes back to 1994 as a standard — a much, much lower standard. India has things that are [garbled]. I want to do the same thing as everyone else. We can’t do that? We can’t do that? That’s O.K. Let me get out. Frankly, the people that like me, love that I got out.

After that, it was fairly surprising. He [President Emmanuel Macron of France] called me and said, “I’d love to have you there and honor you in France,” having to do with Bastille Day. Plus, it’s the 100th year of the First World War. That’s big. And I said yes. I mean, I have a great relationship with him. He’s a great guy.

HABERMAN: He was very deferential to you. Very.

TRUMP: He’s a great guy. Smart. Strong. Loves holding my hand.

HABERMAN: I’ve noticed.

TRUMP: People don’t realize he loves holding my hand. And that’s good, as far as that goes.

_________

TRUMP: I mean, really. He’s a very good person. And a tough guy, but look, he has to be. I think he is going to be a terrific president of France. But he does love holding my hand.

One can love, hate, or be indifferent regarding the president but no one can honestly say the guy isn't just a wee bit crazy.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 20, 2017, 11:10:02 am
One can love, hate, or be indifferent regarding the president but no one can honestly say the guy isn't just a wee bit crazy.

I think you spelled "bat shit" wrong.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: MusicMan on July 20, 2017, 11:11:23 am
I think you spelled "bat shit" wrong.

I guano the correct spelling.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 20, 2017, 11:17:47 am
I guano the correct spelling.

Honestly, this is Crazy King George stuff (http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22122407).

Quote
They have discovered that during his [George III] episodes of illness, his sentences were much longer than when he was well.

A sentence containing 400 words and eight verbs was not unusual. George III, when ill, often repeated himself, and at the same time his vocabulary became much more complex, creative and colourful.

These are features that can be seen today in the writing and speech of patients experiencing the manic phase of psychiatric illnesses such as bipolar disorder.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on July 20, 2017, 11:19:11 am
Quote
Enemies of mine in the media, enemies of mine are saying it was the greatest speech ever made on foreign soil by a president.

At least he can still make me laugh.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on July 20, 2017, 12:47:51 pm
Trump thinks health insurance costs $12.  A year.  Seriously (https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/7/20/16002764/trump-health-costs).  Further, as stated in the linked article, he thinks it's down 20% since May, when he estimated it cost $15.

How can you solve a problem when you are completely clueless as to what it is?  How can you be this clueless?

He doesn't know the difference between life insurance and health insurance.  OutSTANding.

I remember when George Bush the elder went to a supermarket in Frederick, Maryland, or somewhere similar and was entranced by the scanner at the check-out. Why, I never! And then, conversely, during the campaign for the 1992 election someone asked Clinton about the prices of everyday items, a gallon of milk, a pair of Levis, whatever, and he knew (better than I did) what it all cost.

I don't really know how any of that applies to PPG. But I guess we can see with hindsight that HW, a sort of amorphous coffee ring on the flyleaf of American history, that dude looks like Winston fucking Churchill right about now.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 20, 2017, 01:46:17 pm
I don't really know how any of that applies to PPG. But I guess we can see with hindsight that HW, a sort of amorphous coffee ring on the flyleaf of American history, that dude looks like Winston fucking Churchill right about now.

W. must be chuckling his shoulders off!  First, Jeb completely dispels the widely held belief that he's the smart one, and then Trump gets in and plumbs new depths of ignorance and detachment.  Bush Jr. still has the Iraq war, but Trump's only been in office 6 months (yes, it's only been 6 months).  Trump already has us in Syria (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/09/world/middleeast/us-troops-syria.html), but it won't be until he gets us into Iran and/or North Korea that W's legacy will be comprehensively trounced.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 20, 2017, 03:19:09 pm
Some Trumpanzees in the West Wing are starting to wonder whether their fealty to their lord might be only a one-way thing (http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/20/politics/trump-loyalty-sessions-white-house/index.html).
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: hostros7 on July 20, 2017, 04:15:16 pm
This is an excerpt from a Houston-based and highly-reputable oil and gas investment bank and research firm's morning note. Basically, it is not exactly "left wing fake news." If you want to skim for the gist of it, check out the parts I highlighted in bold.

Quote
Trump Administration officials have fired a warning shot across the bow of Venezuela this week, stating that the US may proceed with economic sanctions in response to President Nicolas Maduro’s apparent push to rewrite the country’s constitution and dismantle its democracy.  These sanctions could importantly include a ban on Venezuelan crude imports into the US. . . .  President Trump has declared that the US “will take strong and swift economic actions” should the Maduro regime impose its Constitutional Assembly on the country.  There are likely two primary reverberating consequences for US oil markets and the domestic refining industry should the Administration implement a Venezuelan crude oil import ban: (1) heavy crude oil supply would almost certainly tighten further for US refiners, and (2) Citgo’s US refining and midstream assets could fall into the hands of Russia.

It continues . . .

Quote
An extended US oil import ban against Venezuela could cripple the country’s economy and cause PDVSA to default on its bonds that were restructured last year.  In exchange for a loan from Russian state-owned oil company Rosneft  PDVSA offered up a 49.9% interest in Citgo (PDVSA’s wholly-owned US downstream entity) as collateral.  A default on those bonds would give Rosneft a sizeable interest in Citgo, and it’s not too hard to imagine that the company could easily gain a controlling 50% interest.  Citgo owns and operates three US refineries (Lake Charles, LA; Corpus Christi, TX; Lemont, IL) totaling approximately 750mbd of capacity and other midstream assets including terminals, storage tanks and pipelines.  The alarm bells already sounded in Congress on this potential issue earlier this year in April ’17 as hotly worded letters were sent from bipartisan groups of Senators and Representatives to the Trump Administration warning of serious national security issues should Russia gain control of Citgo.  Thus, there is no doubt that the Administration is clearly aware of the consequences of potentially driving PDVSA to default through onerous sanctions against Venezuela’s oil industry, yet President Trump appears to be positioning to play the import ban card depending on the outcome of the upcoming July 30 election.  So yet another layer may soon be added to the Trump/Russia saga should the US proceed with Venezuelan sanctions as currently being advertised – you can’t make this stuff up.






Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on July 20, 2017, 04:31:12 pm
I would have thought Trump would look with admiration towards Maduro if he moved further away from democracy.  Kind of like the rest of his buddies Putin, Erdogan, Assad, El-Sisi and Duterte.  However, I guess he just falls for the dictators Putin allows him to.

This is probably the maxim our old allies use to predict his foreign policy: just look towards what Vlad would want.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: WVastro on July 20, 2017, 04:44:38 pm
President Camacho!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W9FN36iAN0g

Maybe electrolytes will fix our $12-15 a year healthcare system.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 21, 2017, 11:59:33 am
Sean Spicer's gone.  Second shortest tenure for a Press Secretary.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on July 21, 2017, 12:22:56 pm
Sean Spicer's gone.  Second shortest tenure for a Press Secretary.

No, look, I'll happily work for a serial liar and lunatic who makes me marionette in front of the global press and say shit that makes me into a worldwide laughingstock and underscores my complete lack of personal integrity. But you hire a communications director?! THAT'S A LINE TOO FAR!
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on July 21, 2017, 01:03:03 pm
No, look, I'll happily work for a serial liar and lunatic who makes me marionette in front of the global press and say shit that makes me into a worldwide laughingstock and underscores my complete lack of personal integrity. But you hire a communications director?! THAT'S A LINE TOO FAR!

Petty careerism is the only true principle these frauds have.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 21, 2017, 01:34:38 pm
Mueller is all over Trump's real estate dealings including the Palm Beach property that he bought in 2004 and sold to a Russian oligarch in 2008, just as Florida real estate prices were crashing, for twice what he'd paid for it.  Anyway, Mueller is all up in Trump's shit and Trump is, apparently, freaking the fuck out about it all.  But Trump can't fire Mueller, only the AG can.  But AG Sessions can't because he's recused from all matters pertaining to the investigation of the campaign, of which he was part, so Trump needs a new AG.

Firing the AG would be controversial so soon into his tenure, so Trump really needs Sessions to resign.  This may explain, then, why he used the NYT to drag Sessions over the coals to the point that his resignation was expected forthwith.  That didn't happen, though, as Sessions decided to stay on and so we can expect another round of house elf-bashing shortly.

Meanwhile, the AG cannot simply fire a Special Prosecutor on a whim.  The AG needs cause, one form of which is a conflict of interest.  The blizzard of reporting in recent days includes the fact that Trump has unleashed his flying monkeys on Mueller's team to dig up as much dirt as possible such that it could be molded in an argument for there being a conflict.  Then, with his shiny new AG installed, there's be a fig leaf of cover over the removal of Mueller.

There are many, many strings to this bow, but it is clear that Mueller is heading in the exact right direction:  Trump's financial dealings with Russians.  He's going after records of Trump's loan dealings with Deutschedramat; he may go after Trump's tax records; he's all over Manafort's incredibly sketchy dealings with Russia and pro-Putin Ukrainians.  He knows what's there and he's going after it.

There's is absolutely no doubt that we are heading for a constitutional crisis of galactic proportions.  Trump is already taking counsel on who he can pardon, up to and including himself.  Even Nixon didn't go there, but you know Trump will.  If he can't fire Mueller, he'll neuter him by pre-pardoning everyone involved, and then the fight will be about the power of the executive branch rather than whether he's a crook and a traitor.  On which side of the argument do you think the Republican congress and the Supreme Court will fall...?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Bench on July 21, 2017, 03:34:50 pm
On which side of the argument do you think the Republican congress and the Supreme Court will fall...?

That's the real constitutional crisis.  It's one thing to have the executive branch running amok, but when the other branches of government fail to check or balance the whole system falls apart.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 22, 2017, 08:30:19 pm
Leaks confirm Sessions talked to Kiskyac about the campaign. We know it's genuine because Trump, instead of calling it "FAKE NEWS" actually retweeted the story.  So now we know that Trump is definitely trying to push out Sessions, and we also know who authorized the leak.

This is all happening so fast. 
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: moriartp on July 23, 2017, 12:06:44 am
If Trump pushes out Sessions, what are the odds Abbott becomes AG?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Navin R Johnson on July 23, 2017, 01:52:45 am
If Trump pushes out Sessions, what are the odds Abbott becomes AG?

Hopefully he wheels in that fucking jackass, fake Texan, Dan Patrick with him.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: chuck on July 23, 2017, 03:41:35 am
If Trump pushes out Sessions, what are the odds Abbott becomes AG?

Can he dance?
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: HudsonHawk on July 23, 2017, 07:52:49 am
I see where Trump has nominated former talk show host and Trump campaign bootlick Sam Clovis to be the lead scientist at the USDA.  Though Clovis has absolutely zero scientific pedigree, and the specific Congressional requirements are  "a distinguished scientist", Trump says Clovis is from Iowa, so that oughtta do it.  No confirmation on the rumor that Trump plans to replace the Air Force One pilot with a pipefitter from Toledo because "he's from Ohio, and that's 'the birthplace of aviation'".
Title: Re: Roger Angell on &quot;Most Important&quot; Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 24, 2017, 08:16:42 am
If Trump pushes out Sessions, what are the odds Abbott becomes AG?

The first time Trump mocks his affliction will be equal parts abhorrent and hilarious.  Every time after that it will just be depressing.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: jbm on July 24, 2017, 09:22:45 am
Doesn't Trump use some ex- NYC cop as his bodyguard and all-around confidante.  You know, they guy he made deliver the letter to Comey.  Trump will likely nominate him for AG.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 24, 2017, 10:15:01 am
Doesn't Trump use some ex- NYC cop as his bodyguard and all-around confidante.  You know, they guy he made deliver the letter to Comey.  Trump will likely nominate him for AG.

His former bodyguard, Keith Schiller, is now the Director of Oval Office Operations - whatever the fuck that is - with an office in the White House, a salary, awesome tax-payer-funded healthcare and everything.

You are correct that he was the one who delivered the letter firing Comey to the place Comey wasn't - missing him by about 3,000 miles - and is also up to his neck in the Russia scandal (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/house-russia-probe-eyes-longtime-trump-bodyguard-turned/story?id=48341329).
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 25, 2017, 08:27:31 am
So who saw this coming:  Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III is the firewall between Trump and a constitutional crisis (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-leaves-sessions-twisting-in-the-wind-while-berating-him-publicly/2017/07/24/ce3bf142-708b-11e7-9eac-d56bd5568db8_story.html).

Basically, Trump wants Sessions gone forthwith but doesn't want to fire him.  So he's running down Sessions in front of anyone who'll listen in the hopes Sessions will quit.  Then, with Congress in recess, Trump gets to pick whomever the fuck he wants to be AG, who can then serve without Senate confirmation through to 2019.  Obviously, Job #1 for the new AG would be to fire Mueller on whatever conflict of interest smears they can invent.

At that point, the spotlight will fall full force onto Congressional Republicans who will, of course, yield to the whim of their Boy King.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 25, 2017, 08:30:58 am
Meanwhile, Kushner - the smartest man on the planet tasked with fixing everything - gave a hilarious statement to the Senate yesterday in which he excused his failure to disclose over 100 contacts with foreigners and dozens of investments because...he's crap at this and his assistant did it and sorry and everything but he new at this and he didn't know any better.  Basically, the dog ate his homework.

Also, despite Trump's unfailing confidence in Kushner's so far hidden talents, he's one of the least impressive individuals I've ever seen behind a microphone.
Title: Re: Roger Angell on "Most Important" Vote of His Lifetime
Post by: Limey on July 25, 2017, 08:45:22 am
Last update this morning:  it's also kill Obamacare (and a few hundred thousand Americans) Day!  The Senate will vote to proceed on the House bill and, if successful, will then vote to replace it in its entirety, and then vote on a Senate bill that has yet to be seen by anyone outside McConnell's office.  Even the #2 and #3 Republicans in the Senate - as of last night - were ignorant as to what was going to be in the Senate bill today.

They've even dragged an ailing John McCain out of hospital - fresh from life-saving, tax-payer funded treatment - to help them reach the 50 votes they need to take health insurance away from either 22, 23 or 32 million Americans, depending on which horror story McConnell drops on the Senate floor.

Whichever bill they go with, the House bill, the Senate bill or the straight repeal and go home bill, they all have a ticking time bomb built in.  Insurance works by pooling the